Low-Mid tier Dungeon non-classic custom ZEM's here on p99

[Gatorsmash]

Clan Runnyeye
Permafrost
Cazic

I'm not a huge game "rules", classic/non-classic, EQ neckbeard guy but what the fuck is up with the ZEM's in these zones? They are not even remotely close to original launch ZEM. Its ridiculous. If you can take the time to adjust CB, you can take the time to adjust these back to what they were originally.

[cd288]

Clan Runnyeye
Permafrost
Cazic

I'm not a huge game "rules", classic/non-classic, EQ neckbeard guy but what the fuck is up with the ZEM's in these zones? They are not even remotely close to original launch ZEM. Its ridiculous. If you can take the time to adjust CB, you can take the time to adjust these back to what they were originally.

I’m sure if you can post evidence they’ll consider it

[loramin]

I’m sure if you can post evidence they’ll consider it

I doubt it.

ZEMs are one of the few exceptions to the normal "keep it classic" rule here: the devs would rather have "classic mystery about the ZEMs" than actual classic ZEMs. As I understand it (and really the devs don't like to talk about this stuff ... or anything else on the forums these days, for that matter), it's because the actual classic ZEMs are widely known in EQEmu, and people knowing those exact values is more unclassic to them.

Personally I think it's the wrong call, not because it's wrong per say, but because it's an unnecessary exception to a server that's full of classic features people have unclassic knowledge of. I think it fits the vision of a classic EQ server to have classic mechanics of all sort, including ZEM ... but they clearly feel otherwise, and of course we're just lucky to have any of this at all :D

[Gatorsmash]

I doubt it.

ZEMs are one of the few exceptions to the normal "keep it classic" rule here: the devs would rather have "classic mystery about the ZEMs" than actual classic ZEMs. As I understand it (and really the devs don't like to talk about this stuff ... or anything else on the forums these days, for that matter), it's because the actual classic ZEMs are widely known in EQEmu, and people knowing those exact values is more unclassic to them.

Personally I think it's the wrong call, not because it's wrong per say, but because it's an unnecessary exception to a server that's full of classic features people have unclassic knowledge of. I think it fits the vision of a classic EQ server to have classic mechanics of all sort, including ZEM ... but they clearly feel otherwise, and of course we're just lucky to have any of this at all :D

^

@cd288 I dont have to post proof because all the original zone experience modifiers are in EQEmu. The dungeons I listed are set just above the outdoor zones at 75%. Its stupid.

[flacidpenguin]

There is so much awesome classic content you cant get groups for because people lust after ZEM exp so only high zem dungeons and zones get groups.

[azxten]

Correct there is a bug report thread with evidence already. There are several major bugs that seem to be getting ignored that are making things very not classic.

Feign death changes.
ZEMs.
Mana per int/wis beyond 200.
Item recharging not working for all items.

Probably a few others but these have existed for months or even years now on the bug reports forum with evidence provided. If these things were changed to be classic the entire dynamic of P99 would change overnight.

Classes like Enchanter are clearly overpowered regardless of being classic yet they aren't nerfed but classes like Necro, Druid, Bard, and others have all been nerfed from their classic state due to being "OP."

I was really hopeful that these new servers wouldn't turn into Cheese 2.0 but that is exactly what has happened. People rushing through levels with non-classic ZEM using charmed backstabbing pets so they can poopsock raid mobs with their non-classic levels of inflated mana and easy FD pulling to split mobs.

I really don't know why things are being kept so "ez mode" here when adequate proof has been provided.

I've just decided that this isn't an attempt at classic EQ anymore. It's just P99 which is fun enough in the right situations.

[WaffleztheAndal]

Correct there is a bug report thread with evidence already. There are several major bugs that seem to be getting ignored that are making things very not classic.

Feign death changes.
ZEMs.
Mana per int/wis beyond 200.
Item recharging not working for all items.

Probably a few others but these have existed for months or even years now on the bug reports forum with evidence provided. If these things were changed to be classic the entire dynamic of P99 would change overnight.

Classes like Enchanter are clearly overpowered regardless of being classic yet they aren't nerfed but classes like Necro, Druid, Bard, and others have all been nerfed from their classic state due to being "OP."

I was really hopeful that these new servers wouldn't turn into Cheese 2.0 but that is exactly what has happened. People rushing through levels with non-classic ZEM using charmed backstabbing pets so they can poopsock raid mobs with their non-classic levels of inflated mana and easy FD pulling to split mobs.

I really don't know why things are being kept so "ez mode" here when adequate proof has been provided.

I've just decided that this isn't an attempt at classic EQ anymore. It's just P99 which is fun enough in the right situations.

It’s still an excellent classic server, nothing even comes close to P99.

[loramin]

It’s still an excellent classic server, nothing even comes close to P99.

Exactly.

It's like, do I disagree on this particular topic? Yes. But we're talking about maybe 0.1% of the mechanics of a server with like 98.7% classic mechanics ... when said server already had my heart way back at 70% :D

[Dolalin]

I've already compiled the evidence here, and also just recently discovered the exact patch that boosted these ZEMs along with threads of people talking about it. It was March 2002. Out of era.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343193

Nothing wrong with having slightly "custom" ZEMs on P99, and I agree with the mystery angle, but they should at least be classic in spirit :)

[azxten]

The mystery ZEM is that you go to Guk and HHK. End of story. Go to UGuk at level 10ish, leave at 27 and go to HHK goblins, leave at 35 and find something till 40 (sola, etc), then go back to HHK nobles to 50.

Pretty much everyone beyond level 40 has taken this path with some slight variations.

[tommydgun]

The mystery ZEM is that you go to Guk and HHK. End of story. Go to UGuk at level 10ish, leave at 27 and go to HHK goblins, leave at 35 and find something till 40 (sola, etc), then go back to HHK nobles to 50.

Pretty much everyone beyond level 40 has taken this path with some slight variations.

This isnt even a little bit true lol. There are plenty of people who have different routes. Just started my 2nd character and my necro did CB then solo or duo in oasis, SK, and lake rathe. I'm getting 2 bubs an hour still at level 21 soloing open world mobs which is more than I ever got in uguk on my rogue or even HHK gobbos.

Also, "everyone" could not have possibly done HHK goblins because literally only one group at a time can farm that for good xp.

[HedleyKow]

The mystery ZEM is that you go to Guk and HHK. End of story. Go to UGuk at level 10ish, leave at 27 and go to HHK goblins, leave at 35 and find something till 40 (sola, etc), then go back to HHK nobles to 50.

Pretty much everyone beyond level 40 has taken this path with some slight variations.

I had to move around a bit for loot cause I rolled a warrior.

I soloed in innothule/sro till 7ish
grouped in sro till 10-11
briefly went to nro to get a dragoon dirk, then did a little befallen after till around 13-14
uguk till high teens
highpass/uguk till low 20s
sola mostly from like 22-44 to get them loots. Also had one HHK goblin group and the ocassional uguk/lguk group thrown in there
44-50 HHK nobles/bards

[azxten]

I had to move around a bit for loot cause I rolled a warrior.

I soloed in innothule/sro till 7ish
grouped in sro till 10-11
briefly went to nro to get a dragoon dirk, then did a little befallen after till around 13-14
uguk till high teens
highpass/uguk till low 20s
sola mostly from like 22-44 to get them loots. Also had one HHK goblin group and the ocassional uguk/lguk group thrown in there
44-50 HHK nobles/bards

So out of 40 levels beyond level 10 you did about 15 of them in HHK or UGuk. Add in sola and it's 3 zones, the ones I called out, for basically 14-50 for you.

Sounds about right. Also obviously not everyone followed this path. To the other poster I'm just saying, pretty much everyone did who is already 40+. True classic EQ was a real struggle to make 50. There was no exp treadmill and it had nothing to do with "not knowing the spots."

The evidence is all there. It's sad to see how many people will hit 50 and bring alts along within a couple months of release due to this unclassic ZEM. I'm already 50 with 2 alts above 20. Game is more fun when the server is overcrowded and painfully slow. Classic. I'd really rather not be progressing this fast but I am a min/maxer so I will. I'd just prefer to min/max in a more classic environment and classic pace but whatever glitches are going to be left in I'll abuse while advocating for their removal.

[HedleyKow]

The main exp hurdle for classic was just everywhere being crowded tbh. Also, i remember a lot of people exping in zones that no one goes to on P99 like cazicthule.

[TripSin]

the main hurdle on real classic was everyone being terrible at the game, not knowing anything, playing with unstable internet and not playing 20 hour gaming shifts like they do on p99

nothing classic about it

qft

[zaneosak]

So out of 40 levels beyond level 10 you did about 15 of them in HHK or UGuk. Add in sola and it's 3 zones, the ones I called out, for basically 14-50 for you.

Sounds about right. Also obviously not everyone followed this path. To the other poster I'm just saying, pretty much everyone did who is already 40+. True classic EQ was a real struggle to make 50. There was no exp treadmill and it had nothing to do with "not knowing the spots."

The evidence is all there. It's sad to see how many people will hit 50 and bring alts along within a couple months of release due to this unclassic ZEM. I'm already 50 with 2 alts above 20. Game is more fun when the server is overcrowded and painfully slow. Classic. I'd really rather not be progressing this fast but I am a min/maxer so I will. I'd just prefer to min/max in a more classic environment and classic pace but whatever glitches are going to be left in I'll abuse while advocating for their removal.

I tried HHK but it was a fucking mess. I'll be 50 in a few days and did not touch that zone besides killing 1 guard. The nobles are camped to shit, the guards are so contested it's a nightmare. Depends on your class of course but I have not touched HHK 40+ and I don't really play that many hours and I'm almost 50, sure took me a month but did not play out of my mind too much. HHK is the best ZEM and XP if you can get the camps but getting the camps can be a freaking bottomless pit. I am sure there are some people who would wait 4-5 hours for nobles instead of getting 3-4y in those 4-5 hours in another camp and get their 3-4y in 2 hours instead at nobles, I just am not one to sit and wait for the camp.

[Roth]

I tried HHK but it was a fucking mess. I'll be 50 in a few days and did not touch that zone besides killing 1 guard. The nobles are camped to shit, the guards are so contested it's a nightmare. Depends on your class of course but I have not touched HHK 40+ and I don't really play that many hours and I'm almost 50, sure took me a month but did not play out of my mind too much. HHK is the best ZEM and XP if you can get the camps but getting the camps can be a freaking bottomless pit. I am sure there are some people who would wait 4-5 hours for nobles instead of getting 3-4y in those 4-5 hours in another camp and get their 3-4y in 2 hours instead at nobles, I just am not one to sit and wait for the camp.

Listen the original guy with the ogre avatar worded his statement in a way that naturally makes people want to prove him wrong. The main point is that upperguk and hhk from a competitive standpoint(sounds silly but hopefully you get the point) are just better than other alternatives. Things like crushbone, unrest, sol a, najena, befallen are also obviously ridiculous as well.

This is the core problem, the debate is not over whether you can level off different paths. Right now you have s tier zones/camps, a tier, b tier, and then the rest. Something like aviaks in south karana is really a b tier camp but it can often be contested just because it's something decent.

Right now only a small percentage of the game world is actually being used.

[Siege]

The main exp hurdle for classic was just everywhere being crowded tbh. Also, i remember a lot of people exping in zones that no one goes to on P99 like cazicthule.

Yeah, I played from phase 4 beta through Kunark, and Cazic was HUGELY popular in vanilla. Everyone wanted Rubicite back then.

[cd288]

I doubt it.

ZEMs are one of the few exceptions to the normal "keep it classic" rule here: the devs would rather have "classic mystery about the ZEMs" than actual classic ZEMs. As I understand it (and really the devs don't like to talk about this stuff ... or anything else on the forums these days, for that matter), it's because the actual classic ZEMs are widely known in EQEmu, and people knowing those exact values is more unclassic to them.

Personally I think it's the wrong call, not because it's wrong per say, but because it's an unnecessary exception to a server that's full of classic features people have unclassic knowledge of. I think it fits the vision of a classic EQ server to have classic mechanics of all sort, including ZEM ... but they clearly feel otherwise, and of course we're just lucky to have any of this at all :D

But where is the "classic mystery" when we all know where the current high ZEM zones are? Everyone knows that CB, Befallen, and Kurns have absurd ZEMs. Everyone knows HHK, Unrest, and Guk have great ZEMs as well, etc. etc. Now, we might not know the exact numerical value, but we know that the boosts are there; I've tested it before on multiple characters (ensuring that each character doesn't have a different XP boost/penalty than the others) and the EXP absolutely moves materially faster in those zones versus killing a level equivalent mob in another non-ZEM boost zone. The only one I'm still unsure of is LOIO and whether it actually has a penalty or not.

[Roth]

But where is the "classic mystery" when we all know where the current high ZEM zones are? Everyone knows that CB, Befallen, and Kurns have absurd ZEMs. Everyone knows HHK, Unrest, and Guk have great ZEMs as well, etc. etc. Now, we might not know the exact numerical value, but we know that the boosts are there; I've tested it before on multiple characters (ensuring that each character doesn't have a different XP boost/penalty than the others) and the EXP absolutely moves materially faster in those zones versus killing a level equivalent mob in another non-ZEM boost zone. The only one I'm still unsure of is LOIO and whether it actually has a penalty or not.

In general the wiki values match the in game values pretty closely. He brings up the mystery aspect every thread and it just derails the conversation and gets us nowhere.

[cd288]

In general the wiki values match the in game values pretty closely. He brings up the mystery aspect every thread and it just derails the conversation and gets us nowhere.

Yeah I'm not sure where he was going with that. I would agree if there was actually mystery, but there isn't. It's all known. Weird statement to make I think.

[loramin]

In general the wiki values match the in game values pretty closely. He brings up the mystery aspect every thread and it just derails the conversation and gets us nowhere.

Honestly, I don't care whether or not you like me bringing up topical information in a public discussion: I'm going to do it anyways.

The ZEM thing long predates me. I've only been here about half a decade, and it was in the wiki since before that. I'm entirely too lazy to do so, but I'm sure if you wanted you could check the wiki history and see who added it. Or you could go through the old forum posts where it's been discussed many times, because it's not like this is the first time anyone's thought to talk about ZEMs.

But just because you gained part of a level in a handful of zones and went "yeah these feel about right", that does not in any way disprove anything I've said. For one thing, it takes far more work than that to determine ZEMs, because there's so many other factors. For instance, a zone might have lower HP mobs, for their level ... which will make you earn XP faster there, but have nothing to do with the ZEM. You have to properly isolate all of those, then earn enough (to be statistically significant) XP in two places.

We do have a very good idea that certain zones are off though, like say Kedge, which by all reports has a lower than classic ZEM. In fact, while I think this happened before my time, it apparently once had a classic? (higher than classic?) ZEM, and for some reason was specifically changed on Blue. Again, if you read the forum history, this has all been discussed before.

So while I can't point you to an exact quote from Nilbog, it's the long established consensus here that P99's ZEMS are A) deliberately not known and prevented from being known without great effort (ie. no ShowEQ), and B) presumed to be a mix of classic and unclassic.

Until you've done the painstaking research to prove otherwise (and it will be painful without ShowEQ), or found a quote from a developer here saying otherwise ... maybe don't attack people who seem to know what they're talking about and are just trying to share relevant facts?

[zillabunny]

Stop using it has to be classic as a way to hand wave excuses! There are plenty of things here that are not classic and if they made some small changes like bumped up runny eye and CT zem it would do amazing things to spread out the server and actually in the spirit of classic promote exploration!

[loramin]

Stop using it has to be classic as a way to hand wave excuses! There are plenty of things here that are not classic and if they made some small changes like bumped up runny eye and CT zem it would do amazing things to spread out the server and actually in the spirit of classic promote exploration!

Classic is so critical here they literally have the word in the upper-left corner.

If you want to understand the limited number of exceptions and why they exist, see http://wiki.project1999.com/Non-Classic_Compendium ... but there very much is a "method to the madness".

So while I completely sympathize with your viewpoint, and on Blue I think custom ZEMs might be a great idea ... especially on Green/Teal, classic really isn't any kind of "hand wave excuse": it's the entire point of everything.

[cd288]

So while I can't point you to an exact quote from Nilbog, it's the long established consensus here that P99's ZEMS are A) deliberately not known and prevented from being known without great effort (ie. no ShowEQ), and B) presumed to be a mix of classic and unclassic.


I deleted the rest of the post from this quote because it wasn't really relevant to what that other commenter and I were saying. He and I weren't talking about if the current ZEMs are classic or not, etc.

We were talking about your earlier "mystery" statement. There's no mystery on P99 since, like I said, we all know which zones have high ZEMs. We might not know the exact values for them, but we know which ones are higher (and which of those are significantly higher) than other zones. There's no "mystery" going on here.

As far as your other point about mob HP, it's not relevant really. Sure, you will kill things slower and therefore get less XP per hour, but that's not relevant to how much EXP each mob gives. We're not talking about how efficient a zone is for killing mobs, we're talking about the amount of EXP you get for a mob in one zone versus another. If I go to Befallen and kill a mob and then go to Oasis and kill a mob of the same level, I get more EXP in Befallen.

[Roth]

Honestly, I don't care whether or not you like me bringing up topical information in a public discussion: I'm going to do it anyways.

The ZEM thing long predates me. I've only been here about half a decade, and it was in the wiki since before that. I'm entirely too lazy to do so, but I'm sure if you wanted you could check the wiki history and see who added it. Or you could go through the old forum posts where it's been discussed many times, because it's not like this is the first time anyone's thought to talk about ZEMs.

But just because you gained part of a level in a handful of zones and went "yeah these feel about right", that does not in any way disprove anything I've said. For one thing, it takes far more work than that to determine ZEMs, because there's so many other factors. For instance, a zone might have lower HP mobs, for their level ... which will make you earn XP faster there, but have nothing to do with the ZEM. You have to properly isolate all of those, then earn enough (to be statistically significant) XP in two places.

We do have a very good idea that certain zones are off though, like say Kedge, which by all reports has a lower than classic ZEM. In fact, while I think this happened before my time, it apparently once had a classic? (higher than classic?) ZEM, and for some reason was specifically changed on Blue. Again, if you read the forum history, this has all been discussed before.

So while I can't point you to an exact quote from Nilbog, it's the long established consensus here that P99's ZEMS are A) deliberately not known and prevented from being known without great effort (ie. no ShowEQ), and B) presumed to be a mix of classic and unclassic.

Until you've done the painstaking research to prove otherwise (and it will be painful without ShowEQ), or found a quote from a developer here saying otherwise ... maybe don't attack people who seem to know what they're talking about and are just trying to share relevant facts?

I'm going to try to make a few points that hopefully you can address - why did guk frequently have 80 players while ct had usually 5 at the beginning of green? From personal experience, as well as the vast majority of the playerbase's experience, you get more exp per kill in guk than ct. On the wiki, guk is stated to have 150 zem while ct is stated to have 85 zem.

What basis do you have to think guk does not have 150 zem and ct 85 when looking at the in game evidence? What basis is there to think the staff changed the zem of guk and ct when the only thing that has ever really been talked about was kedge keep being previously nerfed?

I really don't want to debate you on this because the core problem is that some zones have better zems and they are overrun with players. This is the problem that most people have - the "mystery" aspect has nothing to do with that. The mystery of zems is not why guk is packed and permafrost empty. If something is better exp the playerbase will figure it out and go there.

The reason I say it's derailing the topic is because the core problem is that the player base has figured out the best zones(which basically all correspond to the wiki zems) and overcrowd them.

[loramin]

The reason I say it's derailing the topic is because the core problem is that the player base has figured out the best zones(which basically all correspond to the wiki zems) and overcrowd them.

And the reason I think it's relevant is that if the devs aren't even going to change the current ZEMs to classic ones (when the word "Classic" is etched in the upper-left corner), then your chances of getting custom "get people to less populated zones" ZEMs are not high.

But I'm not trying to silence you or anything, and personally I think that game design-wise, adjusting ZEM based on usage is obviously a superior system. I'm just saying ... lots of stuff in classic was sub-optimal, game design-wise. But ... as later MMOGs found out ... some of the stuff that seemed sub-optimal was actually secretly good. That "secret sauce" was missing in modern MMOGs, and that's why we all play here.

When you start trying to tease out what is "part of the secret sauce" and what should be unclassically improved, it turns out to be a lot harder than you think. And that's when you don't already have a pre-stated goal, as this place does, of doing exactly the opposite.

So I'd be in favor of rotating ZEMs ... on Blue, because I think it should be the "classic plus" server. But on Green/Teal, the "classic" servers, I think classic ZEMs make the most sense. Either way, my opinion doesn't really matter: R&N's does, and they have much stronger feelings about classic and how they can make this place the most classic it can be, to them.

[azxten]

Dev posted to confirm the unclassic ZEM bug report. Prepare your butts.

[skipdog]

A ZEM overhaul is badly needed... but I don't think anything will change. People have been asking for this for many many years.

[loramin]

Prepare your butts.

https://i.imgur.com/5Ui3GyR.gif

Holding on to ... hope.