"Need before greed"

[Hazek]

Jagged band, for example, has inherent value.

That value is whatever it sells for (150p), even if it fluctuates.

And the inherent value is equal for every player in the group regardless of who can equip it.

So anyone who says, "need before greed guys only I can roll on it because I can equip it" is hypocritically greedy because they don't deserve the value of that item more than anyone else in the group. The only exception is the temporary stat benefit during that session.

Does that mean you can't pass on rolls just be nice or if you already got one? No.

Does that mean you can't camp an item for a friend and agree to give it to them? No.

Does it mean that someone got an item I wanted to sell and now i'm mad? No.

What it means that the "need before greed" philosophy has always been backwards and wrong. And people should stop being greedy and accept that the fairest system is for everyone in the group to roll on all tradeable items regardless of who can equip it.

[Vallaen]

Dont do NBG with people you dont know especially a random group.

[Pretzelle]

Dont do NBG with people you dont know especially a random group.

[uygi]

If stupid loot rules are a condition of getting XP in the group, I’m okay with that. If it’s guild/friend group, NBG is best. If it’s a loot group, everybody rolls. Pretty soon the masses will start to be lvl 50 and these threads will either go away, or get monumentally worse...

[TripSin]

I agree in NBG. People getting upgrades that they will wear on THAT character should get priority over people wanting to sell it for cash or give it to a friend or put on an alt character who did not participate in acquisition.

But could have hypothetical gray areas like what if the upgrade is like 1 extra AC but you could sell it for a ton.

[solleks]

1 char per ssn if u die in everquest u have to get a job irl

[Hazek]

I agree in NBG. People getting upgrades that they will wear on THAT character should get priority over people wanting to sell it for cash or give it to a friend or put on an alt character who did not participate in acquisition.

But could have hypothetical gray areas like what if the upgrade is like 1 extra AC but you could sell it for a ton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJX1REQB12o

[Evia]

the "need before greed" philosophy has always been backwards and wrong. And people should stop being greedy and accept that the fairest system is for everyone in the group to roll on all tradeable items regardless of who can equip it.

Agreeeeeeed 100%

[Fawqueue]

I agree in NBG. People getting upgrades that they will wear on THAT character should get priority over people wanting to sell it for cash or give it to a friend or put on an alt character who did not participate in acquisition.

But could have hypothetical gray areas like what if the upgrade is like 1 extra AC but you could sell it for a ton.

I think most of the community agrees when it's a group of friends or guildmates, since in that instance you are simply saving them the hassle of finding that upgrade later.

However, in a group of randoms it just doesn't make as much sense. You need plat to purchase upgrades, to further your goals. So do the other five members of your group. An item drops that represents that value, but one or two members claim priority over it simply due to convenience. Not every archetype will have a drop potential at every camp, so why should the classes that are putting in equal work be punished simply due to mob availability?

Not to mention, one of two scenarios is likely to play out with that item you let go to NBG:

1.) They upgrade that slot again, sell the item, and certainly keep 100% of the money. This is the exact scenario that would have played out had everyone rolled, with an item transformed into cash, but you let one guy swindle the rest because he was going to wear it for a while.

2.) The player who takes the item ends up re-rolling or quitting. If they re-roll, they sell that item (see above) to finance a new character. If they quit, it literally just disappears into the ether.

So considering everything, the fairest system will always be everyone roll, everyone benefit equally.

[Jimjam]

All for me and none for all!

[Axlrose]

Back on Live, I experienced both type of players within groups - everybody rolled and need before greed. For the former, one hitch people seemed to agree upon was once one person obtained something, they were exempt from a future roll until everybody in the group would win. Thus it made people consider whether they wanted a particular item just to unload to the market or play the wait and see game to see if something more desirable would drop. If nobody needed a particular item, then once the group disbanded, the one looting would either sell off the items and split the coins or if only a few people did not win anything, then give these items to them as secondary prizes.

For the most part, people were relatively pleasant. Loot whores were blacklisted.

[Siege]

I don't have pixel AIDS so I like to let people have what they need. When I'm in a group with pixel-sick lootwhores who insist on greeding everything, I give whatever I win to whoever needs it.

[Siege]

Jagged band, for example, has inherent value.

That value is whatever it sells for (150p), even if it fluctuates.

That's what it might potentially sell for if you spend a few days spamming EC rather than leveling up your character and find someone desperate enough to pay full price. In reality, it's probably going to sit in your bank with all of the other junk you don't feel like selling until you put it on an alt or sell it well below the average price.

[Swish]

Dont do NBG with people you dont know especially a random group.

"My cleric alt would LOVE this!"

[Keebz]

That's what it might potentially sell for if you spend a few days spamming EC rather than leveling up your character and find someone desperate enough to pay full price. In reality, it's probably going to sit in your bank with all of the other junk you don't feel like selling until you put it on an alt or sell it well below the average price.

Exactly.

People are seriously over valuing the EV of an 18% chance of getting an item that may sell for 150pp on another continent after a few hours of spamming.

My bank is overflowing with random 50-150pp items, because I'm busy leveling, and make more leveling in the time it would take me to sell these items.

This of course breaks down once you get into fairly liquid the 1k+ items.

[Zal22]

Jagged band, for example, has inherent value.

That value is whatever it sells for (150p), even if it fluctuates.

And the inherent value is equal for every player in the group regardless of who can equip it.

So anyone who says, "need before greed guys only I can roll on it because I can equip it" is hypocritically greedy because they don't deserve the value of that item more than anyone else in the group. The only exception is the temporary stat benefit during that session.

Does that mean you can't pass on rolls just be nice or if you already got one? No.

Does that mean you can't camp an item for a friend and agree to give it to them? No.

Does it mean that someone got an item I wanted to sell and now i'm mad? No.

What it means that the "need before greed" philosophy has always been backwards and wrong. And people should stop being greedy and accept that the fairest system is for everyone in the group to roll on all tradeable items regardless of who can equip it.

Are you trying to repair your rep, Nordok?

[Polixa]

NBG is great if you are a melee class, all those freebies can later be sold or used to twink. Gear exclusively for casters and priests is generally less valuable and there is less of it.

[Darkslide632]

It's simple. When a group says they're using NBG, don't join if that doesn't sit well with you.

I don't understand the pissing and moaning. You either agree with it, or you don't. But agreeing with it doesn't make anyone more greedy than another.

If there's ONE person in the group saying NBG, then guess who needs to leave if they don't like the group consensus?

This isn't rocket science.

[Kalamurv]

Honestly it doesn't made if group is NBG or straight up Greed....the main key is to set the rules at the start of group and make sure all are aware / agree to those rules. If everyone is aware of the rules from the get go, they have absolutely no one to bitch at said rules but themselves for agreeing to them.

Now personally, I don't care either way on loot, but what I do get quite pissed about is those lame fuckers that lie about gear being an upgrade / hide their normal gear so they can claim NBG when truth is otherwise. I doesn't happen often (at least to me), but it does happen, and those type of people need to die in a very slow burning fire.

[Swish]

rules

Aren't they great?

[Nuggie]

It's simple. When a group says they're using NBG, don't join if that doesn't sit well with you.

Very much this.

[firesyde424]

This is crap! Utter and total crap! You can't justify rolling for the 500pp mage research words vs an actual mage in group based on "fairness" and "equality." Call it what it is, greed before need.

[vossiewulf]

I don't have pixel AIDS so I like to let people have what they need. When I'm in a group with pixel-sick lootwhores who insist on greeding everything, I give whatever I win to whoever needs it.

What he said. And the greedy bastards will never group with me again.

EVERY single one of the people who have said everyone should roll on anything because it's "fair", you people aren't the slightest bit interested in fairness. You are greedy as hell and just want to get your grasping ugly fingers on everything you can.

And that's completely demonstrated by the fact that there could be one drop the whole night and it's an awesome melee weapon and you the caster win it and walk away without a second thought. That's called greed, greed and lack of consideration for anyone other than yourselves (which is most certainly the way you treat everyone).

[Hazek]

Are you trying to repair your rep, Nordok?

I don't care about the opinions of idiots.

[Hazek]

What he said. And the greedy bastards will never group with me again.

EVERY single one of the people who have said everyone should roll on anything because it's "fair", you people aren't the slightest bit interested in fairness. You are greedy as hell and just want to get your grasping ugly fingers on everything you can.

And that's completely demonstrated by the fact that there could be one drop the whole night and it's an awesome melee weapon and you the caster win it and walk away without a second thought. That's called greed, greed and lack of consideration for anyone other than yourselves (which is most certainly the way you treat everyone).

Wrong and hypocritical. If you let people have what they need then that includes people who could sell it and buy an equivalent item. Not sure why this utterly simple logic is hard for you to understand. Actually I know why.

[flacidpenguin]

If it's a pick up group I expect ots going to be Greed on everything. If it's a guild or friends group its nbg 95% of the time.

[Hazek]

There's nothing wrong with giving items to guildies or friends. But if everyone rolls on items in pugs regardless of whether you can equip it then that's not greed because everyone needs it and gets the same exact value out of it. And nothing changes that fact even if people deny it.

Trading the item for one you can equip or selling it to buy one later is literally the same as equipping the original item. (besides a temporary benefit).

The player who wins it gets an item they can use regardless of whether they can immediately equip it.


And a related note: Tradeable items are just a different form of currency. They represent energy or value. So if you want a specific tradeable item then you're better off farming the most valuable item you can then selling it to buy the one you need, instead of spending that time farming an item with lesser value even if that's the one you want. (some people already get this but others like vossiewulf never will.).

[vossiewulf]

Wrong and hypocritical. If you let people have what they need then that includes people who could sell it and buy an equivalent item. Not sure why this utterly simple logic is hard for you to understand. Actually I know why.

Sure thing Nordok's alt, anyone stupid enough to listen to you for personal advice gets what they deserve.

And of course you're greed over need. You'd laugh at the mage who just lost the roll for the 500pp very rare words.

[aaezil]

Sorry you didnt get 100 plat item (not)

[Hazek]

Sure thing Nordok's alt, anyone stupid enough to listen to you for personal advice gets what they deserve.

And of course you're greed over need. You'd laugh at the mage who just lost the roll for the 500pp very rare words.

If I were the mage, and any mage who isn't a retard, then I would say grats on the plat and the item you can buy with it because you deserve it just like the rest of us who were here for the kill.

Just like if a caster sold a sword to buy a page.

[Hazek]

It's simple. When a group says they're using NBG, don't join if that doesn't sit well with you.

You have that option. But the problem is that the definition of "need before greed" is backwards because the correct definition is everyone rolling on tradeable items because everyone needs it and the value is equal.

[Kaino]

NBG is a losing deal for melees because often you will have no problem passing NBG on caster stuff as a melee main but then when its a camp for a melee item no casters will agree to NBG because they have a melee alt they want to gear so it's usually a losing deal to ever agree to NBG as a melee because it will not be reciprocated at melee camps

[vossiewulf]

If I were the mage, and any mage who isn't a retard, then I would say grats on the plat and the item you can buy with it because you deserve it just like the rest of us who were here for the kill.

Just like if a caster sold a sword to buy a page.

We'll have to agree to disagree on your motivations.

[Siege]

NBG is a losing deal for melees because often you will have no problem passing NBG on caster stuff as a melee main but then when its a camp for a melee item no casters will agree to NBG because they have a melee alt they want to gear so it's usually a losing deal to ever agree to NBG as a melee because it will not be reciprocated at melee camps

NBG should never include potential alts. If you can't use it on the character you're playing, you don't need it.

[Hazek]

If you can sell it and buy an item you need, you don't need it.

[Kaino]

NBG should never include potential alts. If you can't use it on the character you're playing, you don't need it.

the point is NBG happens more often at caster camps because casters will rarely agree to pass on good melee items because they always have a melee alt and will greed roll whereas melees will almost always pass on good caster stuff

[Tethler]

What he said. And the greedy bastards will never group with me again.

EVERY single one of the people who have said everyone should roll on anything because it's "fair", you people aren't the slightest bit interested in fairness. You are greedy as hell and just want to get your grasping ugly fingers on everything you can.

And that's completely demonstrated by the fact that there could be one drop the whole night and it's an awesome melee weapon and you the caster win it and walk away without a second thought. That's called greed, greed and lack of consideration for anyone other than yourselves (which is most certainly the way you treat everyone).

Think about it this way. If everything was NBG, then what cleric is going to want to join a pug at camps where melee items drop when they aren't allowed to loot? What tank is going to want to tank for a camp with caster drops?

If everything is always greed rolls, then sometimes you lose items that you want, but sometimes but you win others that you wouldn't get to loot in a NBG scenario. It all balances out and doesn't discourage people from grouping at camps that don't have drops for their class. On top of this, if you are getting all your upgrades through NBG you only have access to same-level quality loot. If you are selling drops you can buy loot from camps that are above your ability to kill. I understand your thinking here, and I used to think that way myself, but if you think about it logically, greed rolls on everything makes the most sense.

[vossiewulf]

Sorry you didnt get 100 plat item (not)

A demonstration of the point, not that you're likely to get it.

I get much more enjoyment from seeing the people around me get something that makes them happy than I do from getting something for myself, as does my partner. In EQ terms, that pretty much always meant everyone in the group gets something before we did, and we were always available to help people get things they needed.

Although there were always random people, these groups were usually made up of an extended friends and family group of 30ish people from many guilds, we never joined one.

In mid-2000 we had to relocate 1500 miles and drive, and in perfect EQ fashion, we're playing late the night before leaving and running around doing some tasks, with the whole friends and family group offline already, and we wiped. I can't even remember what happened, but it was someplace where it would take us a very long time to get to and we had four hours before hopping in a car for 12 hours.

Next day she called one of our friends to let them know what had happened and that when we came back online a week or so later we'd be needing to ask for help for ourselves for once.

We finally get online a week later, and at this point are kind of looking forward to the regearing process, our gear wasn't great anyway. We get pinged by the friends to come meet them in EC. We get there to find that the entire friends and family group had dropped everything they were doing and had spent the entire previous week camping things around the clock and donating funds. They came up one by one to hand us things.

We ended up being way better geared than we were before. I'm sure you get more plat and items than I do, but I would rather be on my side.

[Siege]

the point is NBG happens more often at caster camps because casters will rarely agree to pass on good melee items because they always have a melee alt and will greed roll whereas melees will almost always pass on good caster stuff

This is why every group needs a loot nazi to keep the pixel zombies in check. Those creatures will loot every corpse if you let them, not thinking for one second that there are 5 other people in the group who need plat just as much as they do. There needs to be someone in every group who is willing to tell them to get fucked when they try to roll on melee gear for their nonexistent alt,

[Hazek]

This is why every group needs a loot nazi to keep the pixel zombies in check. Those creatures will loot every corpse if you let them, not thinking for one second that there are 5 other people in the group who need plat just as much as they do. There needs to be someone in every group who is willing to tell them to get fucked when they try to roll on melee gear for their nonexistent alt,

You need to get fucked when you try to tell people they can't roll on an item they can trade for one they can use for their main.

[Kalamurv]

Hazek you have a seriously messed up and completely wrong idea about what the "need" in NBG is. It doesn't mean you need the plat from the item or anything else, it means its an upgrade that you can equip on that character. Greed is rolling on an item you are going to sell, give to a twink / friend / your whore....whatever.

[Hazek]

Hazek you have a seriously messed up and completely wrong idea about what the "need" in NBG is. It doesn't mean you need the plat from the item or anything else, it means its an upgrade that you can equip on that character. Greed is rolling on an item you are going to sell, give to a twink / friend / your whore....whatever.

Read my posts and try to use your brain.

[Kalamurv]

I did read your posts, and unfortunately you are the one not using your brain. You seem to think that because you believe your definition of 'need' is the one that should be accepted, where you are in the minority.

[Reddarok]

NBG is a simple concept, can you use it or not and is it an upgrade. Those are the only components in that idea. Dont try to overthink it, you're not that smart or the first person to think of platinum conversion. You're just arrogant enough. Either the group agrees to it or does not, end of thread.

[Hazek]

I did read your posts, and unfortunately you are the one not using your brain. You seem to think that because you believe your definition of 'need' is the one that should be accepted, where you are in the minority.

Its a logical fact that trading for an item you can use is the same as equipping the original. Yet some people are too dumb to understand that utterly simple concept.

That's why its hypocritically greedy to say, "no you cant roll on it cause you can't equip it" because you're literally denying that person an item they can equip through exchange.

And yet those are the kind of people who invoke "need before greed" even though its backwards.

[vossiewulf]

Its a logical fact that trading for an item you can use is the same as equipping the original. Yet some people are too dumb to understand that utterly simple concept.

No Hazek, we follow your logic, we just don't agree that it's correct. The reason being that it treats all these objects as gray boxes with no particular association to any class. If that were true, then your logic would actually work. But it is not true.

What is true is the objects have class associations so if you win the roll on the 500pp words with a mage there, that person will have seen something that they very much need right there and now it's gone. And it may be another 20 hours of camping before one shows up again.

That person will feel from pretty bummed out to like shit. Many would call it a night because this sucks. People who actually feel empathy for others would never consider doing that to someone else. It's not called the Golden Rule without reason.

What I see is people who feel no empathy for others, specifically you and a couple others, and I think that because your logic regularly requires that to be true to work. And the fact that you don't even notice that is also telling.

But at the same time, not everyone who's fine with rolling for everything is ok with it for the same reasons Hazek/Nordok wants it to be the default. Not talking about those people here.

[Hazek]

No Hazek, we follow your logic, we just don't agree that it's correct. The reason being that it treats all these objects as gray boxes with no particular association to any class. If that were true, then your logic would actually work. But it is not true.

What is true is the objects have class associations so if you win the roll on the 500pp words with a mage there, that person will have seen something that they very much need right there and now it's gone. And it may be another 20 hours of camping before one shows up again.

That person will feel from pretty bummed out to like shit. Many would call it a night because this sucks. People who actually feel empathy for others would never consider doing that to someone else. It's not called the Golden Rule without reason.

What I see is people who feel no empathy for others, specifically you and a couple others, and I think that because your logic regularly requires that to be true to work. And the fact that you don't even notice that is also telling.

But at the same time, not everyone who's fine with rolling for everything is ok with it for the same reasons Hazek/Nordok wants it to be the default. Not talking about those people here.

Wanting a fair role on items has nothing to with empathy. And if they were "empathetic" then they would allow other people to roll on it.

I do treat people how I want to be treated, and how they treat me. Because if I were the mage then I would let people roll on it like I already said. Or I would just offer to buy it from them or someone else.

Furthermore, a greedy mage is denying the other people from getting an item they deserve. It makes no difference if they don't get it immediately.

And if they throw a hissy fit cause they didn't win the roll then they're childish and I wouldn't group them after that anyway.

I'm all about being fair and just not catering to people who cry about it or don't understand. Although unfortunately they still exist so i'm forced to deal with them.

[Kalamurv]

Pro tip for you Hazek, when you start a group, or as you join one....(as leader of group forming, you could always decide this for the group), ask what loot rules are (or tell group if you are leader of forming group). A lot of people don't like asking this because they don't want to come across as a greedy whore, but you'll run into far less issues when uberitem_002 drops that so and so wants really bad.

Myself personally I don't care which loot system is used, both have their merits and disadvantages...but when in nbg group, when I win an upgrade I will often, not always but often offer my old piece up for rest of group to random off or pass to someone else that needs.

[Hazek]

Pro tip for you Hazek, when you start a group, or as you join one....(as leader of group forming, you could always decide this for the group), ask what loot rules are (or tell group if you are leader of forming group). A lot of people don't like asking this because they don't want to come across as a greedy whore, but you'll run into far less issues when uberitem_002 drops that so and so wants really bad.

Myself personally I don't care which loot system is used, both have their merits and disadvantages...but when in nbg group, when I win an upgrade I will often, not always but often offer my old piece up for rest of group to random off or pass to someone else that needs.

Yeah I hear you and i've passed on items that I couldn't equip plenty of times even though I could trade it for one I could use. And I agree that you should decide on the rules in the beginning and that it comes down to what the group chooses.

But I needed to make this thread because it always irked me when hypocrites invoke "need before greed" without understanding the reality that its not actually fair for others in the group.

And a smart person would realize that usually politics are more important than facts so if you have no authority then you're better off using idiots to your advantage by agreeing to their rules to prevent them from rolling instead of trying to educate them and getting kicked from the group.

[Wallicker]

Sorry you are poor OP, I can throw you some plat.

[Hazek]

Sorry you are poor OP, I can throw you some plat.

Ok and you can give me high tier items too since you don't need them.

Or are you just being a hypocrite because you also want items and wouldn't actually do that?

[Wallicker]

Ok and you can give me high tier items too since you don't need them.

Or are you just being a hypocrite because you also want items and wouldn't actually do that?

I thought plat and items were the same? Now you want plat AND high tier items given to you when I offered you free plat?!!! Gtfoh! Again I’m sorry you are poor OP and apparently extremely greedy with a high dose of entitlement

[Tecmos Deception]

No Hazek, we follow your logic, we just don't agree that it's correct. The reason being that it treats all these objects as gray boxes with no particular association to any class. If that were true, then your logic would actually work. But it is not true.

What is true is the objects have class associations so if you win the roll on the 500pp words with a mage there, that person will have seen something that they very much need right there and now it's gone. And it may be another 20 hours of camping before one shows up again.

That person will feel from pretty bummed out to like shit. Many would call it a night because this sucks. People who actually feel empathy for others would never consider doing that to someone else. It's not called the Golden Rule without reason.

What I see is people who feel no empathy for others, specifically you and a couple others, and I think that because your logic regularly requires that to be true to work. And the fact that you don't even notice that is also telling.

But at the same time, not everyone who's fine with rolling for everything is ok with it for the same reasons Hazek/Nordok wants it to be the default. Not talking about those people here.

The golden rule works both ways. If you invoke it in the "the warrior NEEDS the fbss because it makes his character better but the magician is just greedy and wants to sell it" way but not also in the "the magician can buy all kinds of things he NEEDS with the plat from selling the fbss" way... you're not being logically consistent. At that point you're just using the rule when it brings about the result you want, not because you actually understand or believe in the rule.

[Hazek]

I thought plat and items were the same? Now you want plat AND high tier items given to you when I offered you free plat?!!! Gtfoh! Again I’m sorry you are poor OP and apparently extremely greedy with a high dose of entitlement

You're calling me poor because I want items and a fair roll on them. So that means if you want a single item then you're a hypocrite. So you gunna give em all to me or accept the fact?

[Tethler]

Are all these guys disagreeing with the greed everything idea new to p99? That's how people have done it on blue for years. People only really do NBG with friends and guildies. With strangers its always greed everything. If you see people pass on blue, its not out of generosity, its because they dont want to be bothered selling the item in the tunnel.

[Hazek]

The golden rule works both ways. If you invoke it in the "the warrior NEEDS the fbss because it makes his character better but the magician is just greedy and wants to sell it" way but not also in the "the magician can buy all kinds of things he NEEDS with the plat from selling the fbss" way... you're not being logically consistent. At that point you're just using the rule when it brings about the result you want, not because you actually understand or believe in the rule.

I agree. That's why I don't invoke that and I always say that everyone should roll regardless of who can equip it. But if the group is dumb and won't be convinced then I'm not gunna waste time arguing with them and might as well use their irrational rules to my advantage since there's no other option besides disbanding.

[Wallicker]

You're calling me poor because I want items and a fair roll on them. So that means if you want a single item then you're a hypocrite. So you gunna give em all to me or accept the fact?

You are brain dead I was legit offering to throw you some plat...

[Hazek]

Are all these guys disagreeing with the greed everything idea new to p99? That's how people have done it on blue for years. People only really do NBG with friends and guildies. With strangers its always greed everything. If you see people pass on blue, its not out of generosity, its because they dont want to be bothered selling the item in the tunnel.

Some groups are like that but not always. People generally assume that its greedy to roll on an item you can't equip because "need before greed" even though thats backwards. So I made this thread to point out that fact and so they stop acting like its wrong to roll on a tradeable items just because your class "can't use it".

[Hazek]

You are brain dead I was legit offering to throw you some plat...

Well that's ironic and I don't need your plat. I'm just calling you out for being poor since you want a fair chance at items, according to you.

[Wallicker]

Well that's ironic and I don't need your plat. I'm just calling you out for being poor since you want a fair chance at items, according to you.

What?? Lol

[Wallicker]

Well that's ironic and I don't need your plat. I like being poor and brain dead.

Fixed

[Shoji]

Yeah I hear you and i've passed on items that I couldn't equip plenty of times even though I could trade it for one I could use. And I agree that you should decide on the rules in the beginning and that it comes down to what the group chooses.

But I needed to make this thread because it always irked me when hypocrites invoke "need before greed" without understanding the reality that its not actually fair for others in the group.

And a smart person would realize that usually politics are more important than facts so if you have no authority then you're better off using idiots to your advantage by agreeing to their rules to prevent them from rolling instead of trying to educate them and getting kicked from the group.

Fair is subjective.

I hate the Tunnel.

I remember when I started EQ on an older established server, I fell into farming Aqua goblins to buy gear that dropped from content which I had never seen. I quickly became disenchanted with the idea and almost quit playing. Luckily a new server opened up, my wife and I moved over, and we had fun looting our gear during regular progression.

During that era developers were tackling problems with droppable loot marginalizing the availability of content for those it was intended for. Before instancing they introduced mechanics such as No Drop loot, in significant part to help alleviate this pressure.

In our guilds and our groups we always emphasized mains looting their upgrades during completion of the content it was earned within. For us it was more satisfying, positively encouraged teamwork and helped identify players with their mains.

On live for us "Greed" rolls almost always had negative connotations. P1999 is a different animal. Players spend a long time gearing up in a limited spectrum of content, often developing many alts. For some the charm is the tunnel. On the blue forums it seemed weighted towards "Greed" rolls as the popular choice. It makes sense when players identify less with a singular main character. On a new server it may be different for awhile.

We don't LFG, so not a big deal for us.

[Hazek]

What?? Lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aDfPmGi6mI&feature=youtu.be

[gnomishfirework]

If something is worth less than 1k, I prefer NBG< but once the monetary value rises I get greedy. If i like you though NBG all day even on something like a tstaff, though.

[Hazek]

If something is worth less than 1k, I prefer NBG< but once the monetary value rises I get greedy. If i like you though NBG all day even on something like a tstaff, though.

Wanting a fair roll on items you deserve isn't greedy though. Its greedy to expect people to give it to you (like the NBG system implies) just because you can immediately equip it while others would have to trade it. But that doesn't mean you cant be generous.

[Tilien]

If we assume that you are a decent level and can make 100 plat an hour farming easily... And it takes you 1 hour to sell the Jagger band for 150 plat...

You got 50 plat from looting the item.

The warrior who uses it saves himself spending 150 plat and has therefore made 150 plat from looting the item.

Therefore if you looting the item to sell means you value your 50 plat over the warrior's 150 plat. This is greedy.

#economics
(Hopefully no one takes this too serious)

[drdrakes]

Yeah all this "NBG" on green is not very EQ to me. Many camps only drop items for certain classes. When I was leveling I would often be grouped for hours watching people get 1000s of plat in words or something when most people in the group leave with maybe 20-50p, just as a for instance.

[Modwolf]

As a shaman on blue, tell me i can get NBG on my torpor. Please and thank you. #nevergonnahappen. Any NBG defender needs to go back to WoW.

[Grimgor]

It really depends on the camp. Some camps with multiple named mobs will have items for everyone and can support NBG rolls. Oher camps don't make sense to NBG unless you all know each other and are helping someone out.

[YendorLootmonkey]

NBG rolling is why after playing 8 years on Blue, I only have had a max of like 15K in the bank. :)

[Keebz]

If we assume that you are a decent level and can make 100 plat an hour farming easily... And it takes you 1 hour to sell the Jagger band for 150 plat...

You got 50 plat from looting the item.

The warrior who uses it saves himself spending 150 plat and has therefore made 150 plat from looting the item.

Therefore if you looting the item to sell means you value your 50 plat over the warrior's 150 plat. This is greedy.

#economics
(Hopefully no one takes this too serious)

It's not even your 50 plat. It's a 1:6 chance to get that 50pp. How much could you sell your roll on jagged band for? 10pp? That is what you are sacrificing to give someone a gear upgrade. Not to mention it's a waste of everyone's time.

Obviously things change when it comes to 1k+ highly sought after and liquid liquid items. Greed rolls on fbss and topor make sense. On a jagged band? Not so much.

[Frostback]

No one in their right mind would call need before greed on a fbss. The value of the item makes a big difference, also your ability to farm rare items/make pp has an impact on this as well. I don't spend a lot of time in the ec tunnel so I tend to sell things cheap and fast. If an item drops and is under 500p, i'll ask if anyone needs it, and if they don't, roll it up. If you're a mage and you lose a roll for some high level research pages, then offer pp to the person who won it. Usually if you're nice, the person who won it will give you the item at a discounted price. Having a random lottery to award a valuable item to party members is not greedy, it's fair.

"I'm a mage so I deserve the items that I can use!" Grow up.... Or solo because you don't know how to share.

[Secrets]

Short of the item being no-drop, you should be always, always, ALWAYS be rolling with the intent to sell as predefined loot rules. Plat has value, your character being a certain class in the group does not.

NBG on items you can trade is an example of people who think they are better than others. It exists to fulfill a desire to take a shortcut over other players.

Best example of this:

You get an FBSS to drop. You could buy 20 items for the price of that FBSS if you're shoddily geared as a <class here>, or you could equip it as a <class here>.
<other class> claims need before greed, who is a melee who would actually use the item. <other class> has now wasted your time and money by taking the item over you for a small upgrade for them. Chances are, you'll never group with that person again and you're higher level as a result of that group without a chance at gear.

I sincerely hope Pantheon learns that tradeable items are okay, but shared group loot of any item is not. This is one of the few mechanics problems in MMOs that are largely solved by individual, personal roll systems on NPC death.

[Axlrose]

For those groups that have a roll on everything:

- Do you roll on vendor trash items? As Secrets mentions, "Plat has value", so every bone chip, rusty weapon, and spider silk has value!

- Once you "win" a roll, do you let everybody else eventually win an item too, or are you rolling on each and every item, because again, everything has value?

It appears Project 1999 is pushing players to be loot whores over friendly game play. I disagree that "plat has value" in a monetary sense since a game like Eve Online does place value upon ISK (game currency) since it can translate into subscription time. Since this game does not have a subscription, basically it comes down to platinum becomes an element of time spent (or wasted, depending upon your view). Thus every item has value on potentially less time spent camping for platinum which can buy improvements to camp for bigger ticket platinum items to transfer into greater improvements to ... etc., etc., etc.

Before I used to be very against real money transfers since i viewed games like this as "fun, with a bit of luck to win something nice". But since everything should be rolled upon since everything has value that eventually translates into time, then if I have the (illegal) means to advance without spending the time and have the real life resources to spend, why not? Let someone else perform the grind and roll for everything while I can reward them and get rewarded simultaneously.

Good thing I solo in a group atmosphere game. Some group members would annoy me to no end...

[Corbin]

Plat has value, your character being a certain class in the group does not.

It should though right? From a RPG development perspective, the player who is represented by their character within the group, whose class greatly defines the manner of their contribution, will hopefully be valued for that particular contribution in addition to their personality. This is something I always thought EQ did better than most newer MMO's. It is one of the reasons I come back to the game.

Don't we want the player to identify with his role and extend this to his bonding with his community? Not to utterly define or limit the player, just to reinforce his "role" within the "game"? I knew many players on Everquest live who were profoundly (in gaming terms) affected by this intended design.

P1999 has developed it's own particular culture for a variety of reasons. Personally, I find much of it lacks what I most enjoyed on Live. However, I love the content and appreciate all of the work you guys do. I understand the arguments in favor of the greed roll and why it would be preferred on the Blue server. It's sensible in that context. I'd just prefer to play with players whose company I value enough, that NBG go's without saying.

PS. O, in light of the above! Merry Christmas Flec & Typhoid, as well to the generous staff of P1999 and for all of it's players :)




NBG on items you can trade is an example of people who think they are better than others. It exists to fulfill a desire to take a shortcut over other players.

Best example of this:

You get an FBSS to drop. You could buy 20 items for the price of that FBSS if you're shoddily geared as a <class here>, or you could equip it as a <class here>.
<other class> claims need before greed, who is a melee who would actually use the item. <other class> has now wasted your time and money by taking the item over you for a small upgrade for them. Chances are, you'll never group with that person again and you're higher level as a result of that group without a chance at gear.

I sincerely hope Pantheon learns that tradeable items are okay, but shared group loot of any item is not. This is one of the few mechanics problems in MMOs that are largely solved by individual, personal roll systems on NPC death.

Imho, at source it's primarily an itemization and content design problem, rather than a band aid loot mechanic requirement. However, I did consider instancing and No Drop loot lesser evils in their time.

[nicemace]

the NBG crowd are the greedy ones.

[Erati]

I have fun when people get upgrades.

[Videri]

sell the Jagger band for 150 plat...

Can we PLEASE agree to call them Jagger bands from here on out?

Quote this post...if you’ve got the stones.

[Richco07]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJX1REQB12o

It's always fun to watch you initially act like a dick to people for no reason and then get butt hurt at their response.

Keep being bad bro. Something something boiling water in mouth islam and going to hell.

[M.J.]

Didn't bother reading through all this crap because like most people that favor NBG and GBN when it favors me, I prefer my own opinion to those of people I assume are idiots for wasting their breath on the subject.

Should a cleric get to NBG a thick banded belt because it allows them to wear 3 more pieces of zero wisdom ac only Bronze without becoming encumbered?

Should a warrior without procs on their weapons get to take anything with dex over a melee with a proc weapon?

Should level 49 research words worth 1-2k each ever got to a class that can't use it?

The answer to any of those questions is OFC yes or no depending on whether or not it benefits you. How many people would keep their mouth shut when they valued the exp from a group over the loot, even if they felt that NBG of a person that took a technical upgrade wasn't warranted because the player in question - like a cleric that takes a high strength item so they can wear higher ac items - never ever does the one thing that would technically justify their getting said item.

The primary justification for always randoming on higher value items is that a person in a group that is ideal for them doesn't deserve the item exclusively because they haven't earned it, or the same person receiving the item won't benefit any of the other persons in a group should those present never group again with one another in the less than ideal conditions that would warrant such upgrades. In effect the upgrade doesn't ever matter unless the "value" of any person who would potentially receive a given item or spell is considered at least equal to the direct potential loss of just a chance at that same loot.

Basically people take offense at GBN when they are the only person whom an item exclusively benefits in a group because it means 5/6 people other than themselves consider them not worthy of foregoing a chance at that same item.

In summary: GBN gets peoples' Irish up because 4/5 people other than the person themselves and the winner of a roll would rather get nothing than do them a favor. This violates basically every rational social model any human being would engage in outside a zero sum MMO setting. The only time you might see such an arrangement is when the spoils are distributed after victory and when a group is "done."

The average pixel adventure is thus an abrupt and premature end that is the equivalent to the end of World War 1: where the victors and those that decide what is fair at the outset of post-war "negotiations" were allowed to take overly long to decide what was best for themselves while very blatantly involving those meant to pay.

Thus while my preference is for whatever benefits me, which would ideally be always getting invited to awesome groups where I gladly embrace NBG because I like and value those I'm grouping with, less than ideally and typically I despise the NBG crowd because they want to rule lawyer their way into loot and advantages whenever it benefits them and not in any principled way, that or they're those that would strong arm me into their "ideal" interpretation of fairness as a condition of joining their little party before I can take their measure.

Anyone that disagrees with any of the above is a moron or a worthless asshole.

[Jean-Baptiste Cutting]

Didn't bother reading through all this crap because like most people that favor NBG and GBN when it favors me, I prefer my own opinion to those of people I assume are idiots for wasting their breath on the subject.

Should a cleric get to NBG a thick banded belt because it allows them to wear 3 more pieces of zero wisdom ac only Bronze without becoming encumbered?

Should a warrior without procs on their weapons get to take anything with dex over a melee with a proc weapon?

Should level 49 research words worth 1-2k each ever got to a class that can't use it?

The answer to any of those questions is OFC yes or no depending on whether or not it benefits you. How many people would keep their mouth shut when they valued the exp from a group over the loot, even if they felt that NBG of a person that took a technical upgrade wasn't warranted because the player in question - like a cleric that takes a high strength item so they can wear higher ac items - never ever does the one thing that would technically justify their getting said item.

The primary justification for always randoming on higher value items is that a person in a group that is ideal for them doesn't deserve the item exclusively because they haven't earned it, or the same person receiving the item won't benefit any of the other persons in a group should those present never group again with one another in the less than ideal conditions that would warrant such upgrades. In effect the upgrade doesn't ever matter unless the "value" of any person who would potentially receive a given item or spell is considered at least equal to the direct potential loss of just a chance at that same loot.

Basically people take offense at GBN when they are the only person whom an item exclusively benefits in a group because it means 5/6 people other than themselves consider them not worthy of foregoing a chance at that same item.

In summary: GBN gets peoples' Irish up because 4/5 people other than the person themselves and the winner of a roll would rather get nothing than do them a favor. This violates basically every rational social model any human being would engage in outside a zero sum MMO setting. The only time you might see such an arrangement is when the spoils are distributed after victory and when a group is "done."

The average pixel adventure is thus an abrupt and premature end that is the equivalent to the end of World War 1: where the victors and those that decide what is fair at the outset of post-war "negotiations" were allowed to take overly long to decide what was best for themselves while very blatantly involving those meant to pay.

Thus while my preference is for whatever benefits me, which would ideally be always getting invited to awesome groups where I gladly embrace NBG because I like and value those I'm grouping with, less than ideally and typically I despise the NBG crowd because they want to rule lawyer their way into loot and advantages whenever it benefits them and not in any principled way, that or they're those that would strong arm me into their "ideal" interpretation of fairness as a condition of joining their little party before I can take their measure.

Anyone that disagrees with any of the above is a moron or a worthless asshole.

Yikes

[Hazek]

Should a cleric get to NBG a thick banded belt because it allows them to wear 3 more pieces of zero wisdom ac only Bronze without becoming encumbered?

Didn't bother reading through all that crap

But no, they should sell it and buy cleric gear.

Duh?

[M.J.]

Didn't bother reading through all that crap


Looks like you've got moron down!

[Pozzey]

Didn't bother reading through all this crap because like most people that favor NBG and GBN when it favors me, I prefer my own opinion to those of people I assume are idiots for wasting their breath on the subject.

Should a cleric get to NBG a thick banded belt because it allows them to wear 3 more pieces of zero wisdom ac only Bronze without becoming encumbered?

Should a warrior without procs on their weapons get to take anything with dex over a melee with a proc weapon?

Should level 49 research words worth 1-2k each ever got to a class that can't use it?

The answer to any of those questions is OFC yes or no depending on whether or not it benefits you. How many people would keep their mouth shut when they valued the exp from a group over the loot, even if they felt that NBG of a person that took a technical upgrade wasn't warranted because the player in question - like a cleric that takes a high strength item so they can wear higher ac items - never ever does the one thing that would technically justify their getting said item.

The primary justification for always randoming on higher value items is that a person in a group that is ideal for them doesn't deserve the item exclusively because they haven't earned it, or the same person receiving the item won't benefit any of the other persons in a group should those present never group again with one another in the less than ideal conditions that would warrant such upgrades. In effect the upgrade doesn't ever matter unless the "value" of any person who would potentially receive a given item or spell is considered at least equal to the direct potential loss of just a chance at that same loot.

Basically people take offense at GBN when they are the only person whom an item exclusively benefits in a group because it means 5/6 people other than themselves consider them not worthy of foregoing a chance at that same item.

In summary: GBN gets peoples' Irish up because 4/5 people other than the person themselves and the winner of a roll would rather get nothing than do them a favor. This violates basically every rational social model any human being would engage in outside a zero sum MMO setting. The only time you might see such an arrangement is when the spoils are distributed after victory and when a group is "done."

The average pixel adventure is thus an abrupt and premature end that is the equivalent to the end of World War 1: where the victors and those that decide what is fair at the outset of post-war "negotiations" were allowed to take overly long to decide what was best for themselves while very blatantly involving those meant to pay.

Thus while my preference is for whatever benefits me, which would ideally be always getting invited to awesome groups where I gladly embrace NBG because I like and value those I'm grouping with, less than ideally and typically I despise the NBG crowd because they want to rule lawyer their way into loot and advantages whenever it benefits them and not in any principled way, that or they're those that would strong arm me into their "ideal" interpretation of fairness as a condition of joining their little party before I can take their measure.

Anyone that disagrees with any of the above is a moron or a worthless asshole.

... U wot m8?

[aaezil]

Didn't bother reading through all this crap because like most people that favor NBG and GBN when it favors me, I prefer my own opinion to those of people I assume are idiots for wasting their breath on the subject.

Should a cleric get to NBG a thick banded belt because it allows them to wear 3 more pieces of zero wisdom ac only Bronze without becoming encumbered?

Should a warrior without procs on their weapons get to take anything with dex over a melee with a proc weapon?

Should level 49 research words worth 1-2k each ever got to a class that can't use it?

The answer to any of those questions is OFC yes or no depending on whether or not it benefits you. How many people would keep their mouth shut when they valued the exp from a group over the loot, even if they felt that NBG of a person that took a technical upgrade wasn't warranted because the player in question - like a cleric that takes a high strength item so they can wear higher ac items - never ever does the one thing that would technically justify their getting said item.

The primary justification for always randoming on higher value items is that a person in a group that is ideal for them doesn't deserve the item exclusively because they haven't earned it, or the same person receiving the item won't benefit any of the other persons in a group should those present never group again with one another in the less than ideal conditions that would warrant such upgrades. In effect the upgrade doesn't ever matter unless the "value" of any person who would potentially receive a given item or spell is considered at least equal to the direct potential loss of just a chance at that same loot.

Basically people take offense at GBN when they are the only person whom an item exclusively benefits in a group because it means 5/6 people other than themselves consider them not worthy of foregoing a chance at that same item.

In summary: GBN gets peoples' Irish up because 4/5 people other than the person themselves and the winner of a roll would rather get nothing than do them a favor. This violates basically every rational social model any human being would engage in outside a zero sum MMO setting. The only time you might see such an arrangement is when the spoils are distributed after victory and when a group is "done."

The average pixel adventure is thus an abrupt and premature end that is the equivalent to the end of World War 1: where the victors and those that decide what is fair at the outset of post-war "negotiations" were allowed to take overly long to decide what was best for themselves while very blatantly involving those meant to pay.

Thus while my preference is for whatever benefits me, which would ideally be always getting invited to awesome groups where I gladly embrace NBG because I like and value those I'm grouping with, less than ideally and typically I despise the NBG crowd because they want to rule lawyer their way into loot and advantages whenever it benefits them and not in any principled way, that or they're those that would strong arm me into their "ideal" interpretation of fairness as a condition of joining their little party before I can take their measure.

Anyone that disagrees with any of the above is a moron or a worthless asshole.

Every worthwhile discussion thread invariably has one completely off the wall manifesto that is just a huge shitpost.

Behold it.

[Kalamurv]

maybe its because I skimmed through MJ's post, or I'm half cut already....but am I the only one that has trouble following his English?

[damus1]

full "greed" is absolutely the fairest and best option there is, despite its name sounding sinister. the dark side of NBG is when group runners exclude people based on class so they have 100% chance of getting an item drop, which happens more often than you'd think. Asking beforehand and refusing biased "NBG" groups is the way to go. leave nbg for guild or friend groups

[Modwolf]

Didn't bother reading through all this crap because like most people that favor NBG and GBN when it favors me, I prefer my own opinion to those of people I assume are idiots for wasting their breath on the subject.

Should a cleric get to NBG a thick banded belt because it allows them to wear 3 more pieces of zero wisdom ac only Bronze without becoming encumbered?

Should a warrior without procs on their weapons get to take anything with dex over a melee with a proc weapon?

Should level 49 research words worth 1-2k each ever got to a class that can't use it?

The answer to any of those questions is OFC yes or no depending on whether or not it benefits you. How many people would keep their mouth shut when they valued the exp from a group over the loot, even if they felt that NBG of a person that took a technical upgrade wasn't warranted because the player in question - like a cleric that takes a high strength item so they can wear higher ac items - never ever does the one thing that would technically justify their getting said item.

The primary justification for always randoming on higher value items is that a person in a group that is ideal for them doesn't deserve the item exclusively because they haven't earned it, or the same person receiving the item won't benefit any of the other persons in a group should those present never group again with one another in the less than ideal conditions that would warrant such upgrades. In effect the upgrade doesn't ever matter unless the "value" of any person who would potentially receive a given item or spell is considered at least equal to the direct potential loss of just a chance at that same loot.

Basically people take offense at GBN when they are the only person whom an item exclusively benefits in a group because it means 5/6 people other than themselves consider them not worthy of foregoing a chance at that same item.

In summary: GBN gets peoples' Irish up because 4/5 people other than the person themselves and the winner of a roll would rather get nothing than do them a favor. This violates basically every rational social model any human being would engage in outside a zero sum MMO setting. The only time you might see such an arrangement is when the spoils are distributed after victory and when a group is "done."

The average pixel adventure is thus an abrupt and premature end that is the equivalent to the end of World War 1: where the victors and those that decide what is fair at the outset of post-war "negotiations" were allowed to take overly long to decide what was best for themselves while very blatantly involving those meant to pay.

Thus while my preference is for whatever benefits me, which would ideally be always getting invited to awesome groups where I gladly embrace NBG because I like and value those I'm grouping with, less than ideally and typically I despise the NBG crowd because they want to rule lawyer their way into loot and advantages whenever it benefits them and not in any principled way, that or they're those that would strong arm me into their "ideal" interpretation of fairness as a condition of joining their little party before I can take their measure.

Anyone that disagrees with any of the above is a moron or a worthless asshole.

Disagree

[Kohedron]

This MJ fellow had a very merry Christmas

[nightwriter2000]

For me, personally, I'm just here (in a group) to have some fun and hopefully gain exp in the right direction, maybe have some decent group banter. If I gain something material, it's icing on the cake. I personally will usually pass on rolling for something the character I'm on at that moment can't personally use, if there is someone else there playing that can use it. Loot will come eventually, I'm not in any hurry. :)

Now, with that said - I do tend to 'raise my eyebrows', so to speak, if someone has already won the roll on a drop and then rolls again later when the same thing drops again. If I won something, I'll skip rolling on it again until everyone else has a chance. That's just me, though. You guys do what you want. I'm here for the fun. :)

[Nitsude]

All you soft-hearted poor people can still do NBG in a greed group. If you win, just give the item to who you think needs the item. And while you're driving home from work tomorrow in your Prius, listening to your favorite broadway musical radio station, you can reminisce on how great of a person you are.

NBG dictates that everyone must adhere to your standard of gameplay. GBN allows every member to decide how they want to distribute the item if they win, which makes it a superior loot system.

This attitude is gone by Kunark launch anyway.

[mischief419]

Makes 0 sense unless no drop. Not only does it have equal value to everyone,

* You can sell it and get something you NEED
* The guy that needs it may go immediately sell it
* If it's not best-in-slot, he WILL eventually sell it (it's not like he's going to find his original group to /random since he doesn't need it anymore)
* There's a good chance the guy you're rolling against is a twink. If this is your first char, esp, you need it [to sell] wayy more than the twink.

Eg, Ghoulbane. "I'm a paladin". Yea right, so many times I see these guys come back the next day with an SBS to try to pull that crap more than once, either selling or tossing on mule. Or maybe they'll have best in slot for everything *except* Ghoulbane.

Spells are expensive. Tradeskills are expensive. Need crap to sell to afford this stuff.

Unless they specifically say "need group" BEFORE you join, all drops are greed rolls. Don't need it immediately? Sell it and get something you need and have the same, inherent worth.

[BlackBellamy]

LOL. I "need" this item so I should have it. Oh yeah, and when you no longer "need" it because you got an upgrade, are you going to reform the original group and say ok guys I no longer need this so let's roll it off? No, you're going to sell that item for plat and you're going to keep that plat.

Like someone wisely said and I often repeat "Need Before Greed is someone trying to screw you out of your loot".

[Whirled]

If an unemployed guy goes and steals your rich employed neighbors newspaper so he could find a job; would that = NBG? P.S. = i do not endorse anyone stealing newspapers

[Polycaster]

Its a logical fact that trading for an item you can use is the same as equipping the original. Yet some people are too dumb to understand that utterly simple concept.

It is not the same, both economically and psychologically.

Psychologically, there is much greater satisfaction in camping something yourself like this was a game rather than buying it in EC like it was a trip to Walmart.

Economically, selling an item adds an extra step which consumes time thereby decreasing the efficiency of the transaction.

Whether you wish to maximize the GDP or the GDE (gross domestic enjoyment) of Norrath NBG is the most efficient of economic systems.

[Polycaster]

Every worthwhile discussion thread invariably has one completely off the wall manifesto that is just a huge shitpost.

Behold it.

It was the most well-thought out post on this thread, carrying within it both wisdom and rage.

[Hazek]

It is not the same, both economically and psychologically.

Psychologically, there is much greater satisfaction in camping something yourself like this was a game rather than buying it in EC like it was a trip to Walmart.

Economically, selling an item adds an extra step which consumes time thereby decreasing the efficiency of the transaction.

Whether you wish to maximize the GDP or the GDE (gross domestic enjoyment) of Norrath NBG is the most efficient of economic systems.

You mean have other people camp it for you.

Or are you gunna camp an item by yourself and be like, "okay guys NBG"

**A Magic Die is rolled by Polycaster.
**It could have been any number from 0 to 100, but this time it turned up a 4.

**A Magic Die is rolled by Polycaster.
**It could have been any number from 0 to 100, but this time it turned up a 69.

"grats Polycaster!"
"thanks"
"here you can have it"
"oh wow ty love you"
"love you too"

Lol

And you know what else adds an extra step? Not getting anything to begin with.

[Polycaster]

What is that gibberish? Grouping together isn't the same as someone doing everything for you. The projection you display is illuminating; everyone is alone in the world with no teamwork or camaraderie possible. A group is an illusion, a guild a psychosis. Only the self. <shudders>

[magicpotatoes]

What is that gibberish? Grouping together isn't the same as someone doing everything for you. The projection you display is illuminating; everyone is alone in the world with no teamwork or camaraderie possible. A group is an illusion, a guild a psychosis. Only the self. <shudders>

The word you're looking for is solipsism.

[Bardp1999]

The tears of monks when T-Staff starts dropping and they don't get it will be monumental on Green

[Hazek]

You said

there is much greater satisfaction in camping something yourself

How are you camping something yourself if you're in a group?

You mean have other people camp it for you.

And if you're soloing then NBG doesn't apply.

[Evia]

I'm really surprised how many nbg supporters exist. While I totally understand the desire to be excellent to your group mates and go with nbg to help out some homies, I'm baffled at how ppl defend the System as 'fair'. It excludes people who worked to achieve the item from getting a chance at it. That's not fair at all.

GBN is fairest because it allows everyone who participated in the kill a chance at the sellable loot items.

You can disagree with either system on a personal level, but can't convince me that nbg is the fairest system, because that's furthest from the truth.

[Hazek]

Grouping together isn't the same as someone doing everything for you.

Yes it is lol. If you're in a group but only you get the items then they're literally doing it for you.

Read your own words:

Camping Something For Yourself



Now if you wanna help some guildies or friends just to be generous then cool. But its wrong to expect others to do it for you then guilt trip them if they don't just hand you the item because "your class can immediately equip it."

Everyone in the group benefits equally from rolling on droppable items whether they equip it, sell it or trade it. As many people in this thread have already explained.

[Hazek]

I'm really surprised how many nbg supporters exist. While I totally understand the desire to be excellent to your group mates and go with nbg to help out some homies, I'm baffled at how ppl defend the System as 'fair'. It excludes people who worked to achieve the item from getting a chance at it. That's not fair at all.

GBN is fairest because it allows everyone who participated in the kill a chance at the sellable loot items.

You can disagree with either system on a personal level, but can't convince me that nbg is the fairest system, because that's furthest from the truth.

Its because people just go with what other people tell them and parrot it instead of actually thinking about it. And because on the surface it seems like its fair to give the item to whoever can immediately equip it. But in reality its greedy.

[Hazek]

The tears of monks when T-Staff starts dropping and they don't get it will be monumental on Green

Anyone who isn't rich would be sad about losing the roll on a 50k item.

Imagine anything you could do with that plat and replace it with T-staff.

That's what you lost the roll on.

Now you could say, "yeah but T-staff is rare and plat is everywhere" except that still screws others out of a chance at getting what its worth and anything they trade it for.

But I think most people get it now.

[Polycaster]

The word you're looking for is solipsism.

I was leaning towards sociopath, but either seem applicable.

[Hazek]

I was leaning towards sociopath, but either seem applicable.

That's the go to word for dumb people who fail at logic.

[Axlrose]

Perhaps those players on Red have the right idea (and going with Eve Online) - if any item drops and people want to be greedy about it, then have everyone become player versus player and let the winner takes all. Let players earn it instead of how most groups usually consist of one or two people doing the heavy lifting while the rest occasionally do something while semi-offline.

[Nagoya]

Damn I read the first 3 pages of this thread and then I jumped to page 10 and now I am here and I must say.

Hazek you are pretty mad about this.

[Smellybuttface]

Damn I read the first 3 pages of this thread and then I jumped to page 10 and now I am here and I must say.

Hazek you are pretty mad about this.

You should see their posts on Rants and Flames. Truly historic. One of the funniest threads I've ever read.

Note: Nordok is Hazek.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344861

Which btw, Nordok didn't you say you were quitting the game? "...EQ causes me to stray but thank God He help me quit again with two bad pulls to catalyze it. My characters are already deleted."

If you deleted your characters and quit the game, why are you so enamored with the forums?

[Hadwin]

What he said. And the greedy bastards will never group with me again.

EVERY single one of the people who have said everyone should roll on anything because it's "fair", you people aren't the slightest bit interested in fairness. You are greedy as hell and just want to get your grasping ugly fingers on everything you can.

And that's completely demonstrated by the fact that there could be one drop the whole night and it's an awesome melee weapon and you the caster win it and walk away without a second thought. That's called greed, greed and lack of consideration for anyone other than yourselves (which is most certainly the way you treat everyone).

I totally agree

[Leifer7inches]

I think in a PUG that can stay together for many hours during a session, they might be able to amicably come to an agreement that greed is a perfectly "fair" way to distribute the loot. Especially if there is some sort of turn taking involved for multiple drops of the same high value items.

In most PUG's I have been in the turnover rate of it's makeup is arguably too high to make that arrangement seem "fair." I don't know how many times I've seen a new replacement join the group and win a drop within 20 minutes while that melee has been in the group for 8+ hours and can't seem to ever win that desperately needed upgrade.

The argument often times given is that "what comes around, goes around" and your RNG will perhaps be hot some other day. I think that argument might hold if you play for an infinite amount of time, but many people just don't have that many hours to put in.

NBG just has too many bad actors that go and sell that item even if they claim to need it. While Greed is at the mercy of RNG for all its faults - unequal time put in at a camp, inefficient distribution so players have to waste hours in EC tunnel trying to sell items they don't need to get items they do need.

PUG's just have a tougher time in most aspects of the whole game, and loot distribution is just another example.

[Hazek]

imagine being mad about a jagged band in 2019

Does it mean that someone got an item I wanted to sell and now i'm mad? No.

Using simple logic doesn't equate to being mad lmao.

That's why prefaced the thread with that because I knew there would be at least one literal retard who would say it.

[veldan]

Best policy I've found with PUGs is to just do greed rolls and you decide as a player to go with need and give your winning roll to someone in the group you feel is worthy of the upgrade. Fairest distribution I can come up with.

Helps you earn friends and build a reputation as well.

[Richco07]

Using simple logic doesn't equate to being mad lmao.

That's why prefaced the thread with that because I knew there would be at least one literal retard who would say it.

Didn't you say that god made you so mad you deleted both of your characters?

something something boiling water islam burning in hell something something

[Smellybuttface]

Didn't you say that god made you so mad you deleted both of your characters?

something something boiling water islam burning in hell something something

LOL I remember reading the same. I think he's trying to ignore it, but Hazek/Nordak went on a holy rolling tirade and said he'd deleted his characters cause, I think, his deity willed it.

I post again for posterity's sake. Hazek/Nordak's amazing thread:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=344861

[Hazek]

Didn't you say that god made you so mad you deleted both of your characters?

something something boiling water islam burning in hell something something

Nah I wasn't mad. I just felt bad from a couple mispulls and getting my group killed so I deleted because its easy for me. But I saw it for the blessing that it was, thank God.

And I still enjoy the game so I rerolled to join a guild with highly intelligent members who have fun playing characters that represent that. The resonance enticed me.

But i'll have to uninstall again eventually because its beyond stupid to play this game for more than a second than I already have. I'm just doing it anyway. May God help us and forgive us.

[Smellybuttface]

Nah I wasn't mad. I just felt bad from a couple mispulls and getting my group killed so I deleted because its easy for me. But I saw it for the blessing that it was, thank God.

And I still enjoy the game so I rerolled to join a guild with highly intelligent members who have fun playing characters that represent that. The resonance enticed me.

But i'll have to uninstall again eventually because its beyond stupid to play this game for more than a second than I already have. I'm just doing it anyway. May God help us and forgive us.

Umm...I read that thread in full. You were definitely mad. You can say what you want now, but the ink is dry on that thread and a few thousand people have read your words. Just as you say you can conjure up an image of a person based on the "character he chooses and how they move in-game", we can do the same for your mood based on the words and inflection you use.

But besides that point, if it's beyond stupid to play the game then why do it? Or am I opening up a can of worms by trying to engage you in discourse?

[Hazek]

LOL I remember reading the same. I think he's trying to ignore it, but Hazek/Nordak went on a holy rolling tirade and said he'd deleted his characters cause, I think, his deity willed it.

I post again for posterity's sake. Hazek/Nordak's amazing thread:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=344861

Its Nordok. You illiterate dumbass.

[Smellybuttface]

Its Nordok. You illiterate dumbass.

Sure, you’re not mad lol. Norduck.

[Hazek]

Sure, you’re not mad lol. Norduck.

Right, because calling you what you are means nothing beyond that. And misspelling my characters name doesn't make me mad either lol. Especially since the first time you did it by mistake.

Your username says alot about you too lmao.

[Smellybuttface]

Right, because calling you what you are means nothing beyond that. And misspelling my characters name doesn't make me mad either lol. Especially since the first time you did it by mistake.

Your username says alot about you too lmao.

Knowing I did it by mistake would still lead you to call someone an “illiterate dumbass”? I think you’re hurting your cause here.

And yes, I open myself up to every clever moron who thinks to say “you live up to your namesake! Hurr!” We all have our crosses to bear I guess. You your anger at yourself and this game, me my unfortunate but family given surname. The Buttfaces are a proud and noble people, but are sadly ridiculed by the lesser ignoble peasantry who don’t understand the subtle art of self-deprecation.

[Modwolf]

Knowing I did it by mistake would still lead you to call someone an “illiterate dumbass”? I think you’re hurting your cause here.

And yes, I open myself up to every clever moron who thinks to say “you live up to your namesake! Hurr!” We all have our crosses to bear I guess. You your anger at yourself and this game, me my unfortunate but family given surname. The Buttfaces are a proud and noble people, but are sadly ridiculed by the lesser ignoble peasantry who don’t understand the subtle art of self-deprecation.

Troll account who is trolling. How original.

[Whirled]

imagine ever being mad about a jagged band
Fixed that for you friend

[GuiltyLight]

I've never really understood the idea behind nbg. Whether someone can use it or they can sell it for something they need is the same thing. And I've seen enough people do something stupid like swap out a visible piece of gear when something drops just so they can roll need on it. If it's guildies or friends, sure. But a random pick up group?

I mean honestly for low value items, who cares. But no one's rolling need on a mega drop. Sorry. That's the exact same amount of platinum saved to anyone in the group.

But obviously this is easily solved by loot rules just being stated up front. If I join a group and the leader says it's need before greed, I think that's stupid as hell but that's what I will go by. Although conveniently people begin to support nbg a lot more of when it's a camp with something they can "use". And the number of times I have seen someone need and then I see them in East Commons auctioning it off later that evening is well into the dozens.

And if it is need before greed, at the very least, if the item you're replacing is worth something you should be having the group roll on it. Frankly I really don't care either way. I make most of my platinum solo to begin with. It's just that need before greed is nonsensical. It doesn't matter if someone's going to use it right that second or if they're going to go to the tunnel and get something they need with it. It's greedy either way. There's no such thing as need.

[Xeddzul]

Oddly enough I joined an Unrest FP group last night. 5 minutes in and Savant's Cap drops (upgrade for me). I suggest we greed and the group insists on NBG instead. I win the cap and then win the earring 10 minutes later...

[Hazek]

Oddly enough I joined an Unrest FP group last night. 5 minutes in and Savant's Cap drops (upgrade for me). I suggest we greed and the group insists on NBG instead. I win the cap and then win the earring 10 minutes later...

Kinda silly eh? Grats though Lol

[Mendo]

The same casters that demand for greed roles will ask you to give them valuable words to research with. I’m great with all sorts of group loot set ups.

[Canelek]

Need Before Greed is fucking stupid in a PUG. I am sure someone has cited the FBSS/Moonstone Ring or that one guy's T-Staff implosion examples at this point.

[Hazek]

Need Before Greed is fucking stupid in a PUG. I am sure someone has cited the FBSS/Moonstone Ring or that one guy's T-Staff implosion examples at this point.

Agree with you but just for the sake of science. Implosion is a good thing. Explosion is destructive.

Although I know what you're saying.

[TripSin]

I'm surprised to see so much hate for NBG in this thread. I feel like NBG has always been the norm when I've played MMOs, even in PUGs... though I stopped playing MMOs for quite a while so maybe it's fallen out of style? When we've gotten items in the groups I've been in so far, people are usually cool with NBG it seems.

[Hazek]

I'm surprised to see so much hate for NBG in this thread. I feel like NBG has always been the norm when I've played MMOs, even in PUGs... though I stopped playing MMOs for quite a while so maybe it's fallen out of style? When we've gotten items in the groups I've been in so far, people are usually cool with NBG it seems.

Its just a bad yet established trend

[vossiewulf]

"Cheating protection" is a ridiculous excuse for rolling everything, and you will find that most people who are very afraid of someone cheating them is due to the fact that they themselves regularly cheat other people.

It's the same thing as guys who go around yelling as loudly as possible that they are NOT gay are actually just advertising the fact that they're gayer than a 3 dollar bill. People who ALWAYS demand protection against someone cheating them are almost always cheats.

Shakespeare said "the lady doth protest too much, methinks." Not like this is an unknown mechanism.

Lastly if someone joins a group that I'm running and says they want to roll for everything to protect themselves against me and the other people in my group cheating them, it's target, /boot. Bye, was not nice to meet you and they go on the not friends list where they'll never group with me again. People who do manage to cheat in my group, same thing, except they go on the list of people where if I was the only person in the universe who could help them, I wouldn't move a muscle. And I have a long memory, so people only get one chance to cheat.

In the end I don't let it bother me, the primary thing I feel about someone cheating my group is embarrassment for them that they're perfectly happy cheating and having the world know it.

[Fammaden]

Lastly if someone joins a group that I'm running and says they want to roll for everything to protect themselves against me and the other people in my group cheating them, it's target, /boot. Bye, was not nice to meet you and they go on the not friends list where they'll never group with me again. People who do manage to cheat in my group, same thing, except they go on the list of people where if I was the only person in the universe who could help them, I wouldn't move a muscle. And I have a long memory, so people only get one chance to cheat.

I'm sure your crushbone groups distribute belts with the utmost integrity and your ignore list is full of deserving people who have outleveled you long ago or quit the game. Grats in advance of memming SoW this April though.

[Hazek]

"Cheating protection" is a ridiculous excuse for rolling everything, and you will find that most people who are very afraid of someone cheating them is due to the fact that they themselves regularly cheat other people.

It's the same thing as guys who go around yelling as loudly as possible that they are NOT gay are actually just advertising the fact that they're gayer than a 3 dollar bill. People who ALWAYS demand protection against someone cheating them are almost always cheats.

Shakespeare said "the lady doth protest too much, methinks." Not like this is an unknown mechanism.

Lastly if someone joins a group that I'm running and says they want to roll for everything to protect themselves against me and the other people in my group cheating them, it's target, /boot. Bye, was not nice to meet you and they go on the not friends list where they'll never group with me again. People who do manage to cheat in my group, same thing, except they go on the list of people where if I was the only person in the universe who could help them, I wouldn't move a muscle. And I have a long memory, so people only get one chance to cheat.

In the end I don't let it bother me, the primary thing I feel about someone cheating my group is embarrassment for them that they're perfectly happy cheating and having the world know it.

Thats hypocritical and greedy because you're cheating people by preventing them from rolling on tradeable items that have the same value for them as it does for you.

Not sure why you're having a hard time understanding that fact.

So whats your character name on each server so we know not to group with you and put you on ignore.

[vossiewulf]

I'm sure your crushbone groups distribute belts with the utmost integrity and your ignore list is full of deserving people who have outleveled you long ago or quit the game. Grats in advance of memming SoW this April though.

Leveling speed is not even in the top 5 considerations when playing a PVE RPG, and only will ever bubble to the top when I'm actually going backward.

Otherwise, if they quit, great, one less jerkass in this little world, and grats on winning the race you made up for yourself. What did you win?

[Fammaden]

I won many greed rolls to sell, thanks for asking was fun to loot.

[vossiewulf]

Not sure why you're having a hard time understanding that fact.


Already explained this to you, I understand your thinking process fully and your assumptions are flawed. Primarily that you treat anything that drops as a gray empty box with no association to anyone or anything. Were that true, your logic is flawless. However it is not true and because you don't account for this your logic fails.

[vossiewulf]

I won many greed rolls to sell, thanks for asking was fun to loot.

Make sure you tell everyone that at the next party you attend. I mean, it's a great idea considering that explaining that you leveled your gnome wizard 10% faster than most people and then quit will result in everyone high-fiving you and thinking you're ten times as awesome. "I'm so impressed with you!" will undoubtedly be the catchphrase of the party.

[Jimjam]

I've never really understood the idea behind nbg. Whether someone can use it or they can sell it for something they need is the same thing. And I've seen enough people do something stupid like swap out a visible piece of gear when something drops just so they can roll need on it. If it's guildies or friends, sure. But a random pick up group?

I mean honestly for low value items, who cares. But no one's rolling need on a mega drop. Sorry. That's the exact same amount of platinum saved to anyone in the group.

But obviously this is easily solved by loot rules just being stated up front. If I join a group and the leader says it's need before greed, I think that's stupid as hell but that's what I will go by. Although conveniently people begin to support nbg a lot more of when it's a camp with something they can "use". And the number of times I have seen someone need and then I see them in East Commons auctioning it off later that evening is well into the dozens.

And if it is need before greed, at the very least, if the item you're replacing is worth something you should be having the group roll on it. Frankly I really don't care either way. I make most of my platinum solo to begin with. It's just that need before greed is nonsensical. It doesn't matter if someone's going to use it right that second or if they're going to go to the tunnel and get something they need with it. It's greedy either way. There's no such thing as need.

Make part payment in exchange for the item, tell them the rest of your plat is on another toon. Then switch to other toon and start spamming them with "FU ON UR 'need' ROLL BRO" and refuse to make the rest of payment.

[Fawqueue]

Maybe the answer has been in front of us all along, hard-coded into the game since the very beginning: Whoever wins the click, wins the loot. We need to stop accommodating the slow fingered, goofy mouse using folks of the world and start rewarding a quick trigger-finger. Weed out the weakest players, as only those who have honed their right-click will be elevated with loot and riches!

[Hazek]

Already explained this to you, I understand your thinking process fully and your assumptions are flawed. Primarily that you treat anything that drops as a gray empty box with no association to anyone or anything. Were that true, your logic is flawless. However it is not true and because you don't account for this your logic fails.

It does have an "association". Its an equippable item with value that can be sold or exchanged for a different equippable item.

[Hazek]

Maybe the answer has been in front of us all along, hard-coded into the game since the very beginning: Whoever wins the click, wins the loot. We need to stop accommodating the slow fingered, goofy mouse using folks of the world and start rewarding a quick trigger-finger. Weed out the weakest players, as only those who have honed their right-click will be elevated with loot and riches!

Protip: hold the mouse with your left hand and and spam the right click with your other index finger.

[Hazek]

In a recent group I was just reminded of some obvious and valuable lessons that are easy to overlook. And its that you can't convince morons; even worse when there's more than one who agree with each other.

So if you join a group and they're adamant about the backwards NBG then you're forced to choose between losing items or plat that you deserve (unless stuff for your class drops), or losing exp by not grouping with them, even if you try to establish it from the beginning. If they're already stuck on bad loot rules then those are your only two options. And arguing about it will always backfire.

[TripSin]

In a recent group I was just reminded of some obvious and valuable lessons that are easy to overlook. And its that you can't convince morons; even worse when there's more than one who agree with each other.

So if you join a group and they're adamant about the backwards NBG then you're forced to choose between losing items or plat that you deserve (unless stuff for your class drops), or losing exp by not grouping with them, even if you try to establish it from the beginning. If they're already stuck on bad loot rules then those are your only two options. And arguing about it will always backfire.

anyone who thinks different from me wrong and stupid! me smartest! everyone else dumb!

[Hazek]

anyone who thinks different from me wrong and stupid! me smartest! everyone else dumb!

I never claim to be the smartest. But if people disagree with objective logical facts then they're wrong. And when its something subjective then i'm ok with saying its my opinion.

[Axlrose]

So if you join a group ...

Do you believe other group members should potentially get weighed rolls for that "phat lewt" or do you believe everyone should be even no matter what?

As an example:

- Member 01 has been with the group for 05 hours.
- Member 02 has been with the group for 05 hours.
- Member 03 has been with the group for 03 hours.
- Member 04 has been with the group for 03 hours.
- Member 05 has been with the group for 01 hour.

And you join this merry band. One hour later, the illustrious and highly sought after Jagged Band drops! Should every player roll just once, or should every member be able to roll per hour they were involved with the group? Thus both members 01 and 02 get 06 rolls, members 03 and 04 get 04 rolls, member 05 gets 02 rolls, and you get only one roll.

Let's assume everybody is honest about their time involved with the group and their overall needs. So which route is fair to you - one roll each or weighed rolls?

A major reason when I used to play this game and went the solo route was too often whenever I did group, some dumb ass would join the group and then they would do nothing except sit there. An item drops, everybody randoms, the dead weight wins, and follows up with, "Oh, my guild needs me." and drops the group. Besides leaching experience, this yahoo took off with loot everybody else could have used.

Most players will at least "try" and help the overall group. But there are players that do jack and fucking shit thinking being in a group is like a government subsidy hand out - they deserve it just because they are special snowflakes. Perhaps their real life bleeds into the gaming world and these special cases just don't know any better, I don't know...

[Tiax]

When blue first launched, every group I was in was NBG and it was cool and good because the server population was very small and it added to the sense of community and everyone helping each other out.

[Horza]

But there are players that do jack and fucking shit thinking being in a group is like a government subsidy hand out - they deserve it just because they are special snowflakes. Perhaps their real life bleeds into the gaming world and these special cases just don't know any better, I don't know...

There's nothing quite like using Republican talking points to support your argument on a video game forum.

[Tiax]

There's nothing quite like using Republican talking points to support your argument on a video game forum.

Perhaps their real life bleeds into the gaming world and these special cases just don't know any better, I don't know...

lol

[Horza]

Everyone who disagrees with me is a special snowflake (this is your brain on Fox News).

[DMN]

They closed the politics thread in offtopic, and as you can see horza has the shakes.

[Horza]

I'm not the one comparing pixels to government subsidies and calling people snowflakes, am I?

[Axlrose]

There's nothing quite like using Republican talking points to support your argument on a video game forum.

Well, thank you! If I am the Republican and you're annoyed by my words, then what does that make you in the political spectrum?

Throughout this thread, I mentioned certain scenarios that I asked a legitimate question to gauge how hard core is the "greed" among players. I asked about trash vendor items (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3056337&postcount=74) being of value and thus part of the roll? I brought up that players could potentially fight each other (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3056738&postcount=109) to see who is the ~strongest~ to claim the prize. Still seeking an idea on the hard core aspect, I went as far as to create a weighed system (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3057611&postcount=150) question.

And all I got for subtle replies is, "I group, I roll, I roll, I roll no matter what!" Since role playing is a lost art, as you mentioned in your reply to Smellybuttface (interesting name), "Your username says alot about you too". Since I link posted words to potentially real life character actions, if all I gleam is "gimme gimme gimme!!!"...

Thanks again for the Republican shot.

[Jimjam]

Do you believe other group members should potentially get weighed rolls for that "phat lewt" or do you believe everyone should be even no matter what?

As an example:

- Member 01 has been with the group for 05 hours.
- Member 02 has been with the group for 05 hours.
- Member 03 has been with the group for 03 hours.
- Member 04 has been with the group for 03 hours.
- Member 05 has been with the group for 01 hour.

And you join this merry band. One hour later, the illustrious and highly sought after Jagged Band drops! Should every player roll just once, or should every member be able to roll per hour they were involved with the group? Thus both members 01 and 02 get 06 rolls, members 03 and 04 get 04 rolls, member 05 gets 02 rolls, and you get only one roll.

Let's assume everybody is honest about their time involved with the group and their overall needs. So which route is fair to you - one roll each or weighed rolls?

A major reason when I used to play this game and went the solo route was too often whenever I did group, some dumb ass would join the group and then they would do nothing except sit there. An item drops, everybody randoms, the dead weight wins, and follows up with, "Oh, my guild needs me." and drops the group. Besides leaching experience, this yahoo took off with loot everybody else could have used.

Most players will at least "try" and help the overall group. But there are players that do jack and fucking shit thinking being in a group is like a government subsidy hand out - they deserve it just because they are special snowflakes. Perhaps their real life bleeds into the gaming world and these special cases just don't know any better, I don't know...

You /ran (however many minutes you've been at the camp). Everyone gets a shot at loot, those who have put in more time get best odds. Doesn't every group do this?!

When you win an item your /ran clock resets to zero.

[Horza]

Well, thank you! If I am the Republican and you're annoyed by my words, then what does that make you in the political spectrum?

Someone who thinks it's laughable to use unrelated arguments about welfare queens to persuade people how loot should be distributed in a game.

[Hazek]

Do you believe other group members should potentially get weighed rolls for that "phat lewt" or do you believe everyone should be even no matter what?

As an example:

- Member 01 has been with the group for 05 hours.
- Member 02 has been with the group for 05 hours.
- Member 03 has been with the group for 03 hours.
- Member 04 has been with the group for 03 hours.
- Member 05 has been with the group for 01 hour.

And you join this merry band. One hour later, the illustrious and highly sought after Jagged Band drops! Should every player roll just once, or should every member be able to roll per hour they were involved with the group? Thus both members 01 and 02 get 06 rolls, members 03 and 04 get 04 rolls, member 05 gets 02 rolls, and you get only one roll.

Let's assume everybody is honest about their time involved with the group and their overall needs. So which route is fair to you - one roll each or weighed rolls?

A major reason when I used to play this game and went the solo route was too often whenever I did group, some dumb ass would join the group and then they would do nothing except sit there. An item drops, everybody randoms, the dead weight wins, and follows up with, "Oh, my guild needs me." and drops the group. Besides leaching experience, this yahoo took off with loot everybody else could have used.

Most players will at least "try" and help the overall group. But there are players that do jack and fucking shit thinking being in a group is like a government subsidy hand out - they deserve it just because they are special snowflakes. Perhaps their real life bleeds into the gaming world and these special cases just don't know any better, I don't know...

This is actually a great post.

And lol at your example because I had someone like that in my group the other day.

But the only solution for that is to replace them or let them roll if they're needed for exp and because you can't make them play better.

And the loot distribution problem also exists in raids that DKP or loot council may not solve. You could potentially use this in groups but dishonesty is a problem from a lack of public records like not being able to prove who got what items before someone joined. So for the sake of practicality in groups I suggest that everyone just rolls on whatever items that dropped while they "contributed", and hope you win instead of the new guy. Its not 100% fair but there's no better solution that I can think of besides changing the way that loot is defined and obtained within the game mechanics. Or blind faith in random players.

The raid loot system for no drop items:
When an item drops that people want for the first time they roll for a spot in line. Highest to lowest decides those spots and its recorded on a public spreadsheet so anyone can verify. Highest roll the first drop. You could potentially cheat this if people aren't verifying it so I suggest that everyone verifies the list for the items they want and with screenshots of the rolls.

When the item drops again, the next person in line on the initial list wins it. Everyone who wasn't there for the first kill rolls for the next spots after that list. Repeat until everyone gets the item.

This means the people who were there for earlier kills get priority, while the rolls determine the order beyond that.

Here's an example: Solmn System for Raid Loot (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pY2xihRi3BMVu_d9ly8ZCHV2sXy3BNKYvqKroOePWwg/edit?usp=sharing)

Droppable items for raids are the exception to free roll because of the main reason that it would be impractical to list an entire raid for every droppable item since everyone would be rolling. And free roll every time without a list would create huge / undeserved imbalances in plat rewards from RNG alone along with the extreme rarity and difficulty of getting those items, unlike "normal to non-raid high tier".

It may be tedious to record or have problems but I spent more time than I cared to on this already. So try it out if you want, whatever.

[DMN]

My question is if that new guy shows up and sits there for 6 more hours and no phat lewt drops, are you going to let them roll on the phat lewt you guys got before he joined?

[enjchanter]

Didnt you guys read the other thread ?

Just roll an enchanter and never be bothered to roll on loot again

[Hazek]

My question is if that new guy shows up and sits there for 6 more hours and no phat lewt drops, are you going to let them roll on the phat lewt you guys got before he joined?

No and RNG sucks and that's why I hate it and would never include it in a game if possible. Unless it has thresholds where it automatically drops after a "string of bad luck". Which could even be varied where you have multiple thresholds or rolls that cascade and get more common until a guaranteed drop. But even then.

I farmed warlord for 6+ hours last night because it was ok exp and he didn't drop a single bracer (even though its low level loot, still). Then today I killed him a couple more times, still didn't drop it. Soon as I grouped with someone to duo he dropped it and I lost the roll. Nothing against the guy who won it but @#%%^ RNG. There are better solutions although maybe it still has some uses.

[DMN]

No

right, so if someone else has bad luck it's not your problem;if you have bad luck it's someone else's problem.

I bet if you were camping an item and ended up grouped with some guy who says he's been camping it 10 times longer than you, it's not going to sway your intent to want to random for it with them when it drops the next round is it?

[Hazek]

right, so if someone else has bad luck it's not your problem;if you have bad luck it's someone else's problem.

I bet if you were camping an item and ended up grouped with some guy who says he's been camping it 10 times longer than you, it's not going to sway your intent to want to random for it with them when it drops the next round is it?

Of course i'm going to roll for it because if the roles are reversed then that's what I let them do.

I literally just told you, "nothing against him" when he won the bracer. I didn't say to him, "hey you should give me that cause blahblahblah". I sincerely said grats because he won it like he deserved. The fact that I farmed it by myself before that is irrelevant. He was there for the kill that dropped it so he deserved to roll.

Raids are the exception as explained above.

So stop with this nonsense of whatever you're trying to do. I support whats justified and i'm usually on the generous side. But at the same time I shouldn't be expected to just give everything away just like anyone else.

[Hazek]

My question is if that new guy shows up and sits there for 6 more hours and no phat lewt drops, are you going to let them roll on the phat lewt you guys got before he joined?

And if you're camping Efreeti and a new guy joins and nothing drops for 6 hours are you going to let him roll on the 9k boots / ring you got? While you're also there 6 additional hours.

If you say yes then you're a liar and we all know it Lol.

And if you say no then you're a hypocrite.

[Hazek]

Its too late to save face now too so you have two ways you can reply: You can be salty with excuses. Or you can say something humble like "ok yeah that makes sense." Pick the latter and I'll be nice about it.

Or you can say nothing at all. Its super effective.

[Smellybuttface]

Its too late to save face now too so you have two ways you can reply: You can be salty with excuses. Or you can say something humble like "ok yeah that makes sense." Pick the latter and I'll be nice about it.

Or you can say nothing at all. Its super effective.

No doesn’t make him a hypocrite, considering he wasn’t stating this was his position, but rather playing devil’s advocate asking if it was YOUR position. Which it appears not to be. Nor do I suspect it’s anyone else’s.

There seems to be a disconnect between what’s espoused on this forum and what’s practiced in-game. The forum majority seems to be in favor of GBN, but (anecdotally) most groups i join seem to enforce NBG at the outset.

[Hazek]

No doesn’t make him a hypocrite, considering he wasn’t stating this was his position, but rather playing devil’s advocate asking if it was YOUR position. Which it appears not to be. Nor do I suspect it’s anyone else’s.

There seems to be a disconnect between what’s espoused on this forum and what’s practiced in-game. The forum majority seems to be in favor of GBN, but (anecdotally) most groups i join seem to enforce NBG at the outset.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djh4UWhJUWw

[Tiax]

Of course i'm going to roll for it because if the roles are reversed then that's what I let them do.

I literally just told you, "nothing against him" when he won the bracer. I didn't say to him, "hey you should give me that cause blahblahblah". I sincerely said grats because he won it like he deserved. The fact that I farmed it by myself before that is irrelevant. He was there for the kill that dropped it so he deserved to roll.

Raids are the exception as explained above.

So stop with this nonsense of whatever you're trying to do. I support whats justified and i'm usually on the generous side. But at the same time I shouldn't be expected to just give everything away just like anyone else.

ok boomer

[zodium]

ok boomer

[Hazek]

Calling the loot system FRS (fair roll system) unless a different acronym catches on. Because GBN isn't accurate and people won't accept a new definition for NBG.

So when you join a group or start one you can just use that or ask if they're using it.

[Smellybuttface]

Calling the loot system FRS (fair roll system) unless a different acronym catches on. Because GBN isn't accurate and people won't accept a new definition for NBG.

So when you join a group or start one you can just use that or ask if they're using it.

Ok boomer

[Hazek]

Ok boomer

Not a boomer and lame meme you're doing it wrong

[Crevex]

imagine being mad about a jagged band in 2019

[Kalamurv]

Just throwing this out there....who the actual fuck has ever in their life, besides this Hazek guy called it GBN....its either NBG or Greed, GBN makes absolutely no sense at all because if its greed, there is never a moment that need would come into play.

[Hazek]

Just throwing this out there....who the actual fuck has ever in their life, besides this Hazek guy called it GBN....its either NBG or Greed, GBN makes absolutely no sense at all because if its greed, there is never a moment that need would come into play.

I don't call it GBN. I call it FRS because everyone rolling on tradeable items isn't greed. While telling others they can't roll if they can't equip it is hypocritically greedy.

[Hazek]

imagine being mad about a jagged band in 2019

Nobody is mad about jagged band lol. I even said it in the original post. Stop being retarded for your sake and the sake of others.

[zodium]

i came into this thread thinking NBG sucks ass but Hazek has persuaded me that maybe it's good for reasons i don't understand

[Hazek]

i came into this thread thinking NBG sucks ass but Hazek has persuaded me that maybe it's good for reasons i don't understand

Yeah its great if you wanna be greedy and you're the class that can equip it

[Polixa]

Anecdote:

So back on Innoruuk server I was in a group when a Howling Harpoon dropped - shaman only, worth a few hundred plat and to my mind at least, a valuable item.

Personally I would have liked to roll on it, but someone said NBG, and since there was a shaman in the group, we agreed to donate it to him. He said thanks and gratefully accepted it.

Then he let us know that he had sold his last Howling Harpoon in order to fund some other item he was wearing. No-one said anything, but I was pissed off.

That's why NBG sucks.

[Fawqueue]

Anecdote:

So back on Innoruuk server I was in a group when a Howling Harpoon dropped - shaman only, worth a few hundred plat and to my mind at least, a valuable item.

Personally I would have liked to roll on it, but someone said NBG, and since there was a shaman in the group, we agreed to donate it to him. He said thanks and gratefully accepted it.

Then he let us know that he had sold his last Howling Harpoon in order to fund some other item he was wearing. No-one said anything, but I was pissed off.

That's why NBG sucks.

This is exactly why NBG is a terrible system unless you are among friends. That player is eventually going to sell the item...so they got not only the benefit of wearing it but 100% of the plat value down the road just because the other 5 members of the group felt bad about rolling. NBG is a con that ropes in suckers every time.

[cd288]

This is exactly why NBG is a terrible system unless you are among friends. That player is eventually going to sell the item...so they got not only the benefit of wearing it but 100% of the plat value down the road just because the other 5 members of the group felt bad about rolling. NBG is a con that ropes in suckers every time.

Disagree in certain contexts such as an item that's very limited to only one or a select number of classes and/or is very good for that class. Maybe they'll sell it later on in their character's life as expansions come out and better gear becomes available, but who cares. If they need such an item now, then I'm fine with doing NBG.

[bum3]

If you get item and sell it to upgrade the character you're on, that isn't greed. Getting the item and selling it to equip an alt is. Games like EQ and other MMOs and their origins of DnD and other pen and papers is designed so that character is you.. the people you play with on that toon are playing with that character not your split personalities. Problem is... greed randoms almost always go to different personalities at some point and not the character you are getting the item on. That's why it was dubbed greed. That being said when you join a group and they say its all randoms no nbg. Then you choose to stay and abide by it. If you don't like it, leave the group. Same in reverse. You join a guild group of 5 and they say nbg... and you throw a fit. That is your problem. The 5 don't need you. They were doing it before you asked to join them. They were just spreading the love of exp all over your face.

[GuiltyLight]

If you get item and sell it to upgrade the character you're on, that isn't greed.

... yes. Yes it is. There is no actual difference between you wanting to not spend money on the item and then get money from selling it later, and other people rolling on it to sell it in the tunnel. It's all greed.

If a good item drops, no one needs it. There's no such thing as needing an item. Everyone wants it because everyone is greedy. Because it's going to make them more powerful or get the more platinum or make them look fabulous. It's greed. Who can equip it is irrelevant.

Also what are you talking about about how that character is you? It's a video game. Even D&D is just a role-playing game, and an MMO is a pretty far cry from a pencil and paper RPG to begin with. Shaniqua the wood elf Ranger doesn't exist. And her player doesn't need that fbss any more than anyone else in the group does.

[Hazek]

... yes. Yes it is. There is no actual difference between you wanting to not spend money on the item and then get money from selling it later, and other people rolling on it to sell it in the tunnel. It's all greed.

If a good item drops, no one needs it. There's no such thing as needing an item. Everyone wants it because everyone is greedy. Because it's going to make them more powerful or get the more platinum or make them look fabulous. It's greed. Who can equip it is irrelevant.

Also what are you talking about about how that character is you? It's a video game. Even D&D is just a role-playing game, and an MMO is a pretty far cry from a pencil and paper RPG to begin with. Shaniqua the wood elf Ranger doesn't exist. And her player doesn't need that fbss any more than anyone else in the group does.

Nobody needs anything in a video game but want isnt the same as greed. And nobody needs anything in real life either, not even water. You'll just die without it.

[GuiltyLight]

Want isnt the same as greed.

...... Yea. It is.

[bum3]

...... Yea. It is.

Absolutely.

[Hazek]

...... Yea. It is.

No its not. You can want something then trade it for a reasonable price instead of trying to get as much as you possibly can.

[cd288]

... yes. Yes it is. There is no actual difference between you wanting to not spend money on the item and then get money from selling it later, and other people rolling on it to sell it in the tunnel. It's all greed.

If a good item drops, no one needs it. There's no such thing as needing an item. Everyone wants it because everyone is greedy. Because it's going to make them more powerful or get the more platinum or make them look fabulous. It's greed. Who can equip it is irrelevant.

Also what are you talking about about how that character is you? It's a video game. Even D&D is just a role-playing game, and an MMO is a pretty far cry from a pencil and paper RPG to begin with. Shaniqua the wood elf Ranger doesn't exist. And her player doesn't need that fbss any more than anyone else in the group does.

I don't think it's greed if you need the item at the time and use it and then sell it later though...

[GuiltyLight]

I don't think it's greed if you need the item at the time and use it and then sell it later though...

Explain to me how it is any functionally different to equip an item right then or to sell it and get something you want. Explain to me how everyone rolling on everything in pick up groups is in any way not the best, most fair method for distributing loot, while simultaneously avoiding all of the scam artists and hypocrisies of nbg.

Everything is greed. There is no such thing as need in-game, and wanting an item for any reason is greed. Just because you want to think of greed as a negative word doesn't change anything.

Now if you're with a group of friends or guildmates, that's one thing. Although even that in a way is greed because you want the people you ride with to become stronger, so you can get more stuff. But a bunch of just random strangers? I don't trust any of them. And none of them need the worth of an item more than I do, and vice versa.

[GuiltyLight]

No its not. You can want something then trade it for a reasonable price instead of trying to get as much as you possibly can.

You're just being greedy with your time more than your money at that point.

[gundumbwing]

Putting the weird and teenage angst riddled posts of the OP aside, "Greed" IS the absolute fairest loot distribution in EQ. A few of you seem to be getting tunnel vision over the concept of NBG and losing sight on the looting mechanics of the game you are playing.

NBG only makes sense in MMOs where almost all wanted items are bound and unsellable upon looting, like WoW. A NBG system works well to fairly distribute said bound loot. And usually in these MMO's there are rare and valuable drops that aren't bound on loot. These items are almost always Greeded in groups because they can be traded with anyone and thus be sold for likely a good chunk of change so it's fair to everyone, even if a group member wanted it for a upgrade.

NBG doesn't make sense in an MMO where almost all wanted items can be looted and traded at will, like EQ. Almost Every single item in the game has lucrative value to every single group member whether it be monetary or character building. Platinum in EQ can directly correlate to character strength, so it's generally more fair to use the "greed" rule. NBG in EQ is just another weapon in a neckbeards aresnal to shriek in your group chat about fairness while leveling his 5th alt.

That being said, my personal experience on teal has been mostly NBG through these lower levels with large PP items being agreed to /random. EQ is a strange beast.

[Hazek]

Putting the weird and teenage angst riddled posts of the OP aside, "Greed" IS the absolute fairest loot distribution in EQ. A few of you seem to be getting tunnel vision over the concept of NBG and losing sight on the looting mechanics of the game you are playing.

NBG only makes sense in MMOs where almost all wanted items are bound and unsellable upon looting, like WoW. A NBG system works well to fairly distribute said bound loot. And usually in these MMO's there are rare and valuable drops that aren't bound on loot. These items are almost always Greeded in groups because they can be traded with anyone and thus be sold for likely a good chunk of change so it's fair to everyone, even if a group member wanted it for a upgrade.

NBG doesn't make sense in an MMO where almost all wanted items can be looted and traded at will, like EQ. Almost Every single item in the game has lucrative value to every single group member whether it be monetary or character building. Platinum in EQ can directly correlate to character strength, so it's generally more fair to use the "greed" rule. NBG in EQ is just another weapon in a neckbeards aresnal to shriek in your group chat about fairness while leveling his 5th alt.

That being said, my personal experience on teal has been mostly NBG through these lower levels with large PP items being agreed to /random. EQ is a strange beast.


Only classes that can equip NO DROP should roll on those since the value is different than others who would vendor it. But for tradeable items the value is literally equal for everyone. Regardless of what they do with it.

[Hazek]

I don't think it's greed if you need the item at the time and use it and then sell it later though...

You're rolling on the currency or value that's contained in that item. And what you do with that is irrelevant; whether you keep it in the original by equipping it, whether you use it on tradeskills, or whether you buy another item makes no difference.

[Fawqueue]

I don't think it's greed if you need the item at the time and use it and then sell it later though...

But what item truly constitutes as a need in this game? A need is an necessity that you cannot do without. Greed is something you want, because it makes life easier or you will simply enjoy it. In EverQuest, a key that provides access might be considered a need since you are prevented from content without it. However, droppable gear is simply something you desire because it makes things more convenient..but you could easily continue to play without it.

So if somebody in your group says they 'need' that item that just dropped, what they really mean is "that would make things a more convenient for me, so I want it. Even though you could sell it to make things more convenient for you, I think I deserve it because it says WAR and you are not a WAR and rather than be fair about this I want us to cater to bogus circumstantial coincidence and prey upon your societal desire to follow rules and be a good citizen."

[Vostok]

There were actually a good amount of nbg groups among the first set of camps as the now 50s were leveling and was pleasantly surprising. Just make sure the rules of the camp before you join a loot group, if you dont like the rules a premade camp is using either cry about it or join in and hush.
Likely most pick up groups will just /random stuff, but you dont want a group falling apart because an item drops and someone wants to call nbg when that was never the case. A lot of items are currently not worth very much and if a 100plat ring is causing you to have a melt down then you are just being over dramatic.

[Kanuvan]

most things are tradeable which can be sold or traded for other items and potential upgrades, if you let someone impose NBG on you you are being scammed, i need that 2k just as much as you need that +5 int and +10 mana

[Kalamurv]

Only classes that can equip NO DROP should roll on those since the value is different than others who would vendor it. But for tradeable items the value is literally equal for everyone. Regardless of what they do with it.

You can't vendor no drop items....obviously you've never played the game to a level where no drop items are a thing (outside of quest items), and it really shows in your posts.

[Swish]

Remember that T-staff drop in KC? lol

[cd288]

Explain to me how it is any functionally different to equip an item right then or to sell it and get something you want. Explain to me how everyone rolling on everything in pick up groups is in any way not the best, most fair method for distributing loot, while simultaneously avoiding all of the scam artists and hypocrisies of nbg.

Everything is greed. There is no such thing as need in-game, and wanting an item for any reason is greed. Just because you want to think of greed as a negative word doesn't change anything.

Now if you're with a group of friends or guildmates, that's one thing. Although even that in a way is greed because you want the people you ride with to become stronger, so you can get more stuff. But a bunch of just random strangers? I don't trust any of them. And none of them need the worth of an item more than I do, and vice versa.

Simple. If it’s something that person actually needs at that moment in time, then I’m fine with them rolling on it. Sure, when Kunark or Velious come out they’ll probably end up replacing it. But if they use it for awhile then I have no issue with them rolling need on it.

[Hazek]

You can't vendor no drop items....obviously you've never played the game to a level where no drop items are a thing (outside of quest items), and it really shows in your posts.

I'm talking about any MMO because in some games you can. He even mentioned WoW in the post I replied to.

[Hazek]

A lot of items are currently not worth very much and if a 100plat ring is causing you to have a melt down then you are just being over dramatic.

You could say that about the person rolling "need" too. So if they don't let other people roll then they're just having a meltdown and being over dramatic about a 100p item. Also 100p is a good amount of money if your main is level 25 or lower. Even at higher levels getting a 100p drop is nothing to scoff at, although much less significant.

[bum3]

... yes. Yes it is. There is no actual difference between you wanting to not spend money on the item and then get money from selling it later, and other people rolling on it to sell it in the tunnel. It's all greed.

If a good item drops, no one needs it. There's no such thing as needing an item. Everyone wants it because everyone is greedy. Because it's going to make them more powerful or get the more platinum or make them look fabulous. It's greed. Who can equip it is irrelevant.

Also what are you talking about about how that character is you? It's a video game. Even D&D is just a role-playing game, and an MMO is a pretty far cry from a pencil and paper RPG to begin with. Shaniqua the wood elf Ranger doesn't exist. And her player doesn't need that fbss any more than anyone else in the group does.

There is a reason historians say in order for civilization to proceed in a positive direction you must burn all lawyers first. A class can need an item. A warrior needs proccing weps to be viable. Sure he can dps without it but he isn't tanking anything. A wizard winning fbss to equip an alt isn't need. Sure he can buy an int item that will help him once every few hours when hes full mana because he afk'd during a group and got it. Otherwise he has int to increase his mana that he rarely gets to use when it matters. Point of MMO and DnD and other roleplay games is to be the character.. not be you. There's a reason they are MMORPGs and not just MMOs. Only greedy people use arguments like yours. The warrior needs ac gear and proccing items because he wants to hold agro for his groups and he wants to not take excess damage that didn't need to be taken. And you are selfish in thinking that item he looted only benefits you for the short while hes with you so he shouldn't get it over you. You are probably the person who thinks that warrior sucked because he took more damage than he should have or that he couldn't keep agro for anything. But hey that's just my opinion as a person who passes on almost all loot for people as upgrades even if it's a slight upgrade for me.

[Meiva]

If no loot drops for our group I'll inspect for an item another member is wearing and he will then put that item up for random.

[cd288]

There is a reason historians say in order for civilization to proceed in a positive direction you must burn all lawyers first. A class can need an item. A warrior needs proccing weps to be viable. Sure he can dps without it but he isn't tanking anything. A wizard winning fbss to equip an alt isn't need. Sure he can buy an int item that will help him once every few hours when hes full mana because he afk'd during a group and got it. Otherwise he has int to increase his mana that he rarely gets to use when it matters. Point of MMO and DnD and other roleplay games is to be the character.. not be you. There's a reason they are MMORPGs and not just MMOs. Only greedy people use arguments like yours. The warrior needs ac gear and proccing items because he wants to hold agro for his groups and he wants to not take excess damage that didn't need to be taken. And you are selfish in thinking that item he looted only benefits you for the short while hes with you so he shouldn't get it over you. You are probably the person who thinks that warrior sucked because he took more damage than he should have or that he couldn't keep agro for anything. But hey that's just my opinion as a person who passes on almost all loot for people as upgrades even if it's a slight upgrade for me.

Agree with you. Seems like a pretty ridiculous argument some people are making in this thread that because the "needer" may eventually replace the item with an upgrade at some vague point in time down the road (and then likely sell the old item that they rolled need on, possibly months before they sold it) that they can't roll need on something. If I was in a group with people like that I'd leave the group (and I've also never actually seen people apply the theory of no need rolls at all in a group before, so it seems like that's an extreme minority opinion).

[Smellybuttface]

Agree with you. Seems like a pretty ridiculous argument some people are making in this thread that because the "needer" may eventually replace the item with an upgrade at some vague point in time down the road (and then likely sell the old item that they rolled need on, possibly months before they sold it) that they can't roll need on something. If I was in a group with people like that I'd leave the group (and I've also never actually seen people apply the theory of no need rolls at all in a group before, so it seems like that's an extreme minority opinion).

Exactly the point I made earlier. There is a large disparity between what people are espousing in the forums and what is actually occurring in-game. NBG seems the norm is most every group I come across, and yet here on this thread it’s led by those largely against Need before Greed. I don’t understand this chasm of difference between in-game culture and our-of-game theory.

[Fawqueue]

Exactly the point I made earlier. There is a large disparity between what people are espousing in the forums and what is actually occurring in-game. NBG seems the norm is most every group I come across, and yet here on this thread it’s led by those largely against Need before Greed. I don’t understand this chasm of difference between in-game culture and our-of-game theory.

It's because people's ideas and actions are often two very different things. On the forums we are debating the merits of different loot systems, in a bubble, without anyone being disappointed or frustrated with us. However, in-game, after grouping with people for a few hours and seeing how excited they are when something they want drops, it's a lot harder to tell that person no right to their face. On average, most people are non-confrontational and friendly no matter how big a game they talk here.

People only like rocking the boats they aren't currently sitting in.

[Siege]

most things are tradeable which can be sold or traded for other items and potential upgrades, if you let someone impose NBG on you you are being scammed, i need that 2k just as much as you need that +5 int and +10 mana

You should never roll on an item thinking that you're going to get anywhere near the Wiki price. The item values on the Wiki are often best-case scenario. They're also subject to fairly rapid change on a fresh server like Green. You should also take into consideration that the time you spend sitting in EC is time you could be spending leveling up your character and collecting increasingly valuable loot. That single roll might actually end up costing you precious plat in the long run.

Second of all, you need to ask yourself if not allowing the casters in your group to loot a potentially BiS item is worth your reputation. One or more of the people who watched you do that might never want to group with you again, even if they didn't need the item. Pixel lust is certainly one of the ways that I gauge a person's character on P99. That one moment might have cost you a lot of future groups with cool people who would have allowed you to loot whatever you needed, no questions asked. That's how my buddies and I roll. You do something decent for us and we pay you back tenfold.

You might also be giving an item to an unappreciative person, but I'd rather err on the side of 'doing the right thing' because it feels good to rise above the pixel lust by letting go of all attachment to a potentially big-ticket item.

[TripSin]

You should never roll on an item thinking that you're going to get anywhere near the Wiki price. The item values on the Wiki are often best-case scenario. They're also subject to fairly rapid change on a fresh server like Green. You should also take into consideration that the time you spend sitting in EC is time you could be spending leveling up your character and collecting increasingly valuable loot. That single roll might actually end up costing you precious plat in the long run.

Second of all, you need to ask yourself if not allowing the casters in your group to loot a potentially BiS item is worth your reputation. One or more of the people who watched you do that might never want to group with you again, even if they didn't need the item. Pixel lust is certainly one of the ways that I gauge a person's character on P99. That one moment might have cost you a lot of future groups with cool people who would have allowed you to loot whatever you needed, no questions asked. That's how my buddies and I roll. You do something decent for us and we pay you back tenfold.

You might also be giving an item to an unappreciative person, but I'd rather err on the side of 'doing the right thing' because it feels good to rise above the pixel lust by letting go of all attachment to a potentially big-ticket item.

finally some sense in a cesspool :D

[Fawqueue]

You should never roll on an item thinking that you're going to get anywhere near the Wiki price. The item values on the Wiki are often best-case scenario. They're also subject to fairly rapid change on a fresh server like Green. You should also take into consideration that the time you spend sitting in EC is time you could be spending leveling up your character and collecting increasingly valuable loot. That single roll might actually end up costing you precious plat in the long run.

Second of all, you need to ask yourself if not allowing the casters in your group to loot a potentially BiS item is worth your reputation. One or more of the people who watched you do that might never want to group with you again, even if they didn't need the item. Pixel lust is certainly one of the ways that I gauge a person's character on P99. That one moment might have cost you a lot of future groups with cool people who would have allowed you to loot whatever you needed, no questions asked. That's how my buddies and I roll. You do something decent for us and we pay you back tenfold.

You might also be giving an item to an unappreciative person, but I'd rather err on the side of 'doing the right thing' because it feels good to rise above the pixel lust by letting go of all attachment to a potentially big-ticket item.

Considering your reputation is absolutely important in this game, but I don't think having everyone roll equally on an item is going to harm it. If everyone understood the loot rules from the beginning, an item drops, and then they all roll nobody is going to consider it gross misconduct on your part. About the only way this is applicable is if everyone thinks they are going to NBG (whether because that's stated or implied) and then when the item drops you either force everyone to random despite protest, or outright ninja-loot it and refuse a roll.

[bum3]

You should never roll on an item thinking that you're going to get anywhere near the Wiki price. The item values on the Wiki are often best-case scenario. They're also subject to fairly rapid change on a fresh server like Green. You should also take into consideration that the time you spend sitting in EC is time you could be spending leveling up your character and collecting increasingly valuable loot. That single roll might actually end up costing you precious plat in the long run.

Second of all, you need to ask yourself if not allowing the casters in your group to loot a potentially BiS item is worth your reputation. One or more of the people who watched you do that might never want to group with you again, even if they didn't need the item. Pixel lust is certainly one of the ways that I gauge a person's character on P99. That one moment might have cost you a lot of future groups with cool people who would have allowed you to loot whatever you needed, no questions asked. That's how my buddies and I roll. You do something decent for us and we pay you back tenfold.

You might also be giving an item to an unappreciative person, but I'd rather err on the side of 'doing the right thing' because it feels good to rise above the pixel lust by letting go of all attachment to a potentially big-ticket item.

I am no longer religious but i'd like and subscribe this message.

[Evia]

I love all this kumbaya shit! Really no troll I do! It’s inspiring to see a bunch of white knights ‘rising above the pixel lust’ and supporting one another’s characters to help them reach their goals and achievements. Also incredible you’re all running into NBG groups as the ‘norm’

But seriously what p99 servers you guys on? LOL. I’d say it’s a 90/10 ratio on loot rules in pick up groups and that 10 being the percentage to utilize NBG. Maybe on live it was more 50/50 or even favoring NBG a bit.

The reason my opinion shifted from a fierce NBG supporter (for everything you guys have already mentioned) into a fierce ‘Everyone rolls for anything valuable’ is because having everyone roll is the fairest system. This way you’re not taking away a contributors ability to benefit from the kill. All members of the party get equal shot at the riches. No matter if the winner benefits via equipping or selling the item, the end results the same...character upgrades. The NBG mindset TOTALLY applies when the item is NO DROP because the only way anyone is benefiting from that kill are those who can EQUIP IT.

Now my opinion does stay NBG a bit more in regards to spells and words... unless the spell or word in question is worth 3x my net worth. Still tho I’d pass on Torpor for example if I was grouped with a 60 shaman that would scribe the thing on the spot. If he’s 59 tho probably not! He doesn’t technically need it at the time...

Lol see so I’m not exactly black and white on the topic either... and tbh will generally always be down to go along with NBG groups if that’s the groups majority opinion. Just maybe I wouldn’t be disillusioned into believing that by utilizing a NBG system you’re the Fair and Just Saint doing the ‘right’ thing in the scenario cause ehhhhhh, it can easily be debated that being fair to ALL is actually the right way to be excellent to everyone equally.

[Hazek]

Been linking the item and saying "roll" and its been working.

Also 100% of items i've sold or bought have been the average wiki price

[bum3]

So what is it about p99 that lures in the poopsockers, greedy people, and general asshats? Is it because the nice, good people don't stick around? They get driven off? I mean for years there has been endless posts of people saying I loved blue until I reached 50 and had to deal with X people. Pre 50 people are generally nice. It's just 50 on teal/green is 35.

[TripSin]

So what is it about p99 that lures in the poopsockers, greedy people, and general asshats? Is it because the nice, good people don't stick around? They get driven off? I mean for years there has been endless posts of people saying I loved blue until I reached 50 and had to deal with X people. Pre 50 people are generally nice. It's just 50 on teal/green is 35.

My hunch is that, generally speaking, well-adjusted people aren't want to going to spend their time playing an emulator of a super grindy, very repetitive, very unforgiving 20-year-old game. Most of us having played original EQ are 30+ in age now and we're still spending a ton of our time playing video games so by definition we're pretty much manchildren. And to willingly spend a ton of time in a game like EverQuest, you're probably going to be pretty autistic.

[Grakken]

The only reason there are so many NBG PUGs this early on is because the majority of players need lots of gear. As soon as the masses start having gear in most slots people will start to resent under geared players expecting more loot than everyone else.


People will claim all sorts of altruism when it befits their self back patting narrative. In a year everyone will come to the conclusion NBG PUGs are dumb and the narrative will magically change.

[Kanuvan]

only these very forums would tell me im losing out on plat by rolling and winning on a high value item because my time spent selling that high value item could be spent farming pennies from HHK guards

[TripSin]

only these very forums would tell me im losing out on plat by rolling and winning on a high value item because my time spent selling that high value item could be spent farming pennies from HHK guards

other factors were mentioned like how you could be leveling which gives you access to more money making.

anyways, trying to be a greedy fuck in an emulator of a 21-year-old game is just sad and pathetic. ya'll need to chill - for your own sakes.

[Fawqueue]

other factors were mentioned like how you could be leveling which gives you access to more money making.

anyways, trying to be a greedy fuck in an emulator of a 21-year-old game is just sad and pathetic. ya'll need to chill - for your own sakes.

Wait, so wanting to have everyone random so that the chance is equal for the entire group makes you a greedy fuck, but staking claim to the item so that nobody else can have it is not? If you ask me, one of those is as fair as you can possible make it and the other is NBG.

[TripSin]

Wait, so wanting to have everyone random so that the chance is equal for the entire group makes you a greedy fuck, but staking claim to the item so that nobody else can have it is not? If you ask me, one of those is as fair as you can possible make it and the other is NBG.

Sorry, I guess I'm just unfortunately afflicted with this thing called empathy and kindness. I've just always been okay with letting other people, yes basically strangers, getting upgrades for their gear in MMORPG video games and I've always appreciated people letting me get priority when an item is an upgrade for me.

Yes, sometimes people claim "need" when they don't really need or whatever because they're garbage human beings. But even though there are bad apples out there, I still try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they will be a decent human being.

That's just how I choose to treat it personally. I don't expect anyone else to do the same, but of course it's nice when they do too.

[Siege]

other factors were mentioned like how you could be leveling which gives you access to more money making.

Yep. I also mentioned how he might miss out on future groups with one or more of the people who watched him take a potentially best-in-slot item from a caster, which could limit his access to better loot in the future.

Wait, so wanting to have everyone random so that the chance is equal for the entire group makes you a greedy fuck, but staking claim to the item so that nobody else can have it is not? If you ask me, one of those is as fair as you can possible make it and the other is NBG.

Fairness is a subjective concept. I was simply pointing out the fact that there can be far-reaching consequences for giving in to pixel lust that you might not be aware of when a big-ticket item drops and your lizard brain takes over.

[Trexller]

Need Before Greed is just its own form of greed.

It eliminates the competition of other rollers and essentially guarantee the item drop is yours.

While the item may be an upgrade for you, even if the slot is occupied by cloth, you do not deserve 100% merit of the item, unless you killed the mob by yourself, while solo.

Any item, example a caster item, can be an upgrade for a melee character. Every item has value, and thus can be sold or exchanged for an upgrade for that melee player.

Vise Versa for that caster player too.

Every member of that group put in some kind of effort that resulted in the item drop.
Therefore every member should have the same chance at the item that drops.

The fact that you can equip the item immediately is a moot point. Everyone in your group is there for the same reason, to gain xp and hopefully improve their gear.

Groups should roll on every item that drops. So many people have forgotten, that you are entitled to Nothing.

A player who calls NBG on an item, is exercising a form of underhanded greed.

We all want gear, whether it be the item that we can immediately equip, or sell/trade for another item that we can use.

You are not special because you are currently wearing cloth.

Any group I've had the misfortune of joining that called NBG, I left.

I am here to play a game with you, I am not here to twink you.

/rant off

[Doktoor]

Add me into the group that says NBG is stupid because it disincentivizes entire archtypes from doing certain camps. Unless it's like a quest item or something like that, that the person, upon joining the group, says they're after. Everyone should roll on everything, IMO.

And to the people that say, "It's just going to rot in your bank," I say BS, you are not an effective seller than. On Teal at lvl 33, I have exactly 2 pieces of bronze armor in my bank and nothing else - I've moved tons of stuff, including about 3 full sets of bronze. You just have to be aggressive about selling stuff.

[Frug]

anyways, trying to be a greedy fuck in an emulator of a 21-year-old game is just sad and pathetic. ya'll need to chill - for your own sakes.

Sorry, I guess I'm just unfortunately afflicted with this thing called empathy and kindness.

:thinking_face:

[Jimjam]

Disingenuous to say nbg is 'just' another form of greed.

Often in a greed grouo players will spontaneously pass on an item that another player could use.

It feels good to help others progress, and that is worth more than pp to some.

[Trexller]

Of course if you would like to help that player with the item, why not do it?

People say "Pass" on rolled loot all the time.

That's the point, they had the chance to either roll on the item or say "Pass"

The concept of NBG excludes anyone who "cannot immediately use" from ever having a chance at the item that they helped to drop.

I am not that person. I play an SK, and I expect my other group members to roll on the Dark Reaver that they just helped to drop.

It is a great weapon for me, but I would not have ever seen it drop, without the other members of that group.

[Jimjam]

You're seeing NBG as a tool others use to suppress you. Instead see it as a tool you can use help others. Greed is the default, you can instead chose to pass by your own volition.

Stop worrying about nerds trying to get one over you.

[Evia]

You're seeing NBG as a tool others use to suppress you. Instead see it as a tool you can use help others. Greed is the default, you can instead chose to pass by your own volition.

Stop worrying about nerds trying to get one over you.


When I fight a mob with a group, and that group tells me I’m not allowed to roll on the fruits of our labor, nerds are very much trying to get one over on me.

Someone above me said ‘fairness is a subjective concept’ and that’s true to some degree, but let’s take a look at the definition of fairness..

“Impartial and just treatment or behavior without favoritism or discrimination”

NBG literally tells people who worked for something they’re excluded from a chance at the item. Period. Discrimination based on class or race. It is about as rude/greedy as you can be. That’s why I am baffled at all these people acting like they’re the righteous martyrs of the world with their NBG mindset, when the reality is they’re being incredibly rude to those they’re excluding.

Wronging over others in order to do right by someone else, doesn’t make it any less wrong of an action. “A disasters a disaster no matter what christian language you drag it through” by the great Manchester Orchestra comes to mind.

[zodium]

When I fought a mob with a group and that group tells me I’m not allowed to roll on the fruits of our labor, nerds are very much trying to get one over on me.

NBG literally tells people who worked for something they’re excluded from a chance at the item. Period.It is about as rude/greedy as you can be. That’s why I am baffled at all these people acting like they’re the righteous martyrs of the world with their NBG mindset, when the reality is they’re being incredibly rude to those they’re excluding.

Wronging over others in order to do right by someone else, doesn’t make it any less wrong of an action. “A disasters a disaster no matter what christian language you drag it through” by the great Manchester Orchestra comes to mind.

we live in a society

[Evia]

we live in a society

The irony

[diodio]

Flowing Black Silk Sash
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Slot: WAIST
Haste: +21%
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

Can cleric roll the sash or run NBG give it to tank or melee dps ?

[Hazek]

Flowing Black Silk Sash
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Slot: WAIST
Haste: +21%
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

Can cleric roll the sash or run NBG give it to tank or melee dps ?

They should roll on it then sell it and buy 15k worth of items. Or give it to an alt because it makes no difference since they won the roll and its theirs to do whatever they want with.

[battins]

They should roll on it then sell it and buy 15k worth of items. Or give it to an alt because it makes no difference since they won the roll and its theirs to do whatever they want with.

Why bring that cleric at all then? Plenty of people that play priests only and don't need FBSS, and selling gear enables people that can't do the content to gear up so it is immoral and prevents them from learning to play the game.

[Hazek]

Why bring that cleric at all then?

So they can get loot and exp. That's why you group to begin with. And if you just wanna be social then you can sit outside the group and PL them.

Plenty of people that play priests only and don't need FBSS

Most people need 15k. And if they don't then they can pass. But its wrong to expect them to then shame them if they don't.

and selling gear enables people that can't do the content to gear up so it is immoral and prevents them from learning to play the game

wut

[Man0warr]

Why bring that cleric at all then? Plenty of people that play priests only and don't need FBSS, and selling gear enables people that can't do the content to gear up so it is immoral and prevents them from learning to play the game.

Because it's a hard camp and a healer is helpful if you aren't a 50 enchanter or necromancer - even then a cleric to duo with makes the camp safer.

[Polixa]

/shout "Forming NBG group for Frenzy. Looking for 5 casters/priests...."

[Modwolf]

/shout "Forming NBG group for Frenzy. Looking for 5 casters/priests...."

Lol, this is reminding me of the /list. Why would any non-mellee want to farm your FBSS for you. Bring your own NBG group.

Certain camps will always be money camps.

[KelticKope]

I did read your posts, and unfortunately you are the one not using your brain. You seem to think that because you believe your definition of 'need' is the one that should be accepted, where you are in the minority.

Everyone Needs upgrades, money buys upgrades. Everyone put in effort to kill the mob with the riches, everyone deserves equal chance at the rewards.

If people want to be generous and pass, that is their individual discretion. Its what we ALWAYS do among friends and guildies.

But saying everyone rolls, and everyone gets an equal chance, is greedy?

An equal chance is greedy? Sorry no.

That is what YOU are saying. That is illogical. NBG is appropriate among friends or guildies. Or for No Drop Items.

[KelticKope]

So they can get loot and exp. That's why you group to begin with. And if you just wanna be social then you can sit outside the group and PL them.



Most people need 15k. And if they don't then they can pass. But its wrong to expect them to then shame them if they don't.



wut

Im with you man, too many of the cases made against you are citing hyper specific circumstances, mostly involving friends and guildies. Which Im sure we can all agree, need before greed is appreciated.

But you are right, any system the heavily weighs the chances of rewards in favor of only a portion of the group.... is inherently greedy. ASSUMING all included do not agree to those terms.

Wanting an even chance at those rewards is EVEN. And far from greedy.

[Smellybuttface]

Everyone Needs upgrades, money buys upgrades. Everyone put in effort to kill the mob with the riches, everyone deserves equal chance at the rewards.

If people want to be generous and pass, that is their individual discretion. Its what we ALWAYS do among friends and guildies.

But saying everyone rolls, and everyone gets an equal chance, is greedy?

An equal chance is greedy? Sorry no.

That is what YOU are saying. That is illogical. NBG is appropriate among friends or guildies. Or for No Drop Items.

This should be the norm. It gets even more confusing when people say NBG in a non-guild/friend group because then you should be making the decision, well which of you ACTUALLY needs the item more (and not which can actually USE the item).

Scenario: If a group insists on NBG and we have a Warrior, Ranger, and Rogue in the group. A SSOY drops. All can potentially use the item, but I would argue that the Warrior should get first dibs if they insist on a nonsensical NBG rule. Ykesha proc generates a decent amount of aggro, and as such, that’s aggro I’d rather have the Warrior generating then the other two classes. (A rough example, but you see my point).

So at what point do we progress from NBG to then ACTUAL need above others? Or let’s say one of them already has an SSOY, does that mean it’s less fair for that person to roll on it if the other two don’t have the item? Who makes the decision on this as we venture further and further down the rabbit hole?

NBG, in addition to being unfair to other members in the group who participated, makes the choice of who DOES get to roll on an item much more convoluted.

[KelticKope]

Disingenuous to say nbg is 'just' another form of greed.

Often in a greed grouo players will spontaneously pass on an item that another player could use.

It feels good to help others progress, and that is worth more than pp to some.

That is how it should be though.... in a greed group everyone is offered an equal chance... and each player can use their own discretion to pass or not. I often pass on items I don't need when someone else could use the item. Especially when it is a friend or guildie.

But if Im grouping with an overtwinked A***ole who is looting every corpse like a mad man. While Im still wearing leather/banded. You can better believe Im going to roll on the valuable drop.

In another example I saw a ranger who was wearing a crested helm at the entrance of Guk.... join my Exe/Sav group 2 hours later.... without a helmet. Now If I didnt recognize him, he would of gotten one over on our group.

The problem if NBG is it removes individual discretion from the process. And as a blanket rule it can be used and exploited by greedy people.

If the baseline is everyone rolls... nothing can be exploited. And I can decide to pass based on comparative equipment and actual need.

Greedy people can exploit NGB
Greedy people can not exploit when everyone rolls

[Polixa]

Six thieves break into a high security vault to steal a pair of earrings worth a billion dollars.

#1: "Hurray we are all rich!"

#2: "Nope - my ears are pierced so I'm calling NBG."

[Evia]

excellent points from both smelly and keltic!

[Evia]

Six thieves break into a high security vault to steal a pair of earrings worth a billion dollars.

#1: "Hurray we are all rich!"

#2: "Nope - my ears are pierced so I'm calling NBG."

Hahahahaha

[PabloEdvardo]

In another example I saw a ranger who was wearing a crested helm at the entrance of Guk.... join my Exe/Sav group 2 hours later.... without a helmet. Now If I didnt recognize him, he would of gotten one over on our group.


Now that green has been out a while, I'm siding with greed rolls.

For the first month or two, greed rolling everything would have been ridiculous, because even minor drops were often upgrades for multiple people in the group, and there wasn't enough pp in the economy to easily resell items. e.g. I even won a Crested Helm on my cleric, as nbg, because it was a legit upgrade at the time.

Now though? Over 3 months into green? No way.

Everyone needs pp and there's been enough time for loot to flood the market that even a lowbie can gear up easily.

[cd288]

Everyone needs pp and there's been enough time for loot to flood the market that even a lowbie can gear up easily.

If "everyone" needs pp then it's not very easy for a lowbie to gear up because they have none. There's also not much loot in the market, and much of it is being sold for pretty exorbitant prices for what it is.

[KelticKope]

If "everyone" needs pp then it's not very easy for a lowbie to gear up because they have none. There's also not much loot in the market, and much of it is being sold for pretty exorbitant prices for what it is.

I have leveled a fresh toon to 30 and have earned a rough equivalent to 2.5K along the way. it is hardly impossible for new players to get coin. And I am far from a hard core player. I sold almost all belts/sashes/ears/scalps I looted.

Lowbie gear is often selling for 10-150pp a piece, many pieces 20,30,40pp each. And hunting wil-o-wisps will earn plenty of plat to get some basic gear

[kaizersoze]

Grats bladefrenzy

[Hazek]

If "everyone" needs pp then it's not very easy for a lowbie to gear up because they have none. There's also not much loot in the market, and much of it is being sold for pretty exorbitant prices for what it is.

There's lots of lowbie loot available on the market. They can also win rolls for equippable items, even if others roll on it too, not just ones they can sell.

[Hazek]

Grats bladefrenzy

That's GBN, aka "NBG".

[mischief419]

When it comes down to it, 99% of the people that claim need rolls are Seal Team alts that are already rich AF. NEVER allow someone to brainwash you into saying it's a need roll if it wasn't discussed BEFORE you joined the group.

You'll see the same guys say "need roll" for FBSS >> Sell it (or simply pass to mule) >> Return with a leather belt saying it's, again, a "need" roll.

[PabloEdvardo]

When it comes down to it, 99% of the people that claim need rolls are Seal Team alts that are already rich AF.

Funny considering being in a raiding guild makes you poor unless you're already a rich class. Pots and clickies aren't cheap, yo.

Just because a character has gear doesn't mean they're rich. I geared up my alt entirely with stuff I camped and looted on my main. I'm still broke on both.

Also the NBG I see in groups happening now comes from newbies, not from people in raiding guilds.

While we're making up statistics though, did you know that 99% of things mischief419 says are false and without evidence?