Ogre SK or Dwarf Paladin for an occasional alt?

[Midoo]

I'll be doing 50% solo 50% tanking in groups I'd say. Not gonna play it 100% of the time but only when I'm bored of my Shammy or when my friend is online.

Dots and a pet with FSI sounds insane on a tank so Ogre SK seems cool and I hear they're the best hybrid for solo with leeches and Feign Death when shit hits the fan.

But Dwarf Paladin can use Crushbone to cheese 1-10 and has access to the Bloodforge set and hammer, not to mention Lull, Root and Flash of Light make for a very active, fun and forgiving tank class.

So which of these could I realistically achieve more with in a shorter span of time and with less engagement?

[DMN]

paladins can be a lot of fun but dorfs are pretty shitty pals IMO.

Human is prolly the best. Max cha. qeynos is also full of good exp related quests, and freeport is right next to massive ZEM befallen.

FSi really doesn't much at all for a tank since when you are stunned for that second or so your swing timer is still going so you generally won't lose much damage. And it won't prevent you from getting interrupted when spell casting and you get bashed.

the race and hybrid penalties are multiplied together so ogres or troll are really gonna feel the exp squeeze. then again Sks can solo a lot more effectively than paladins if they can fear kite.

[Tecmos Deception]

And it won't prevent you from getting interrupted when spell casting and you get bashed.

I thought this would be the case based on a haynar patch note from a few months ago too. But when I posted data on bashes vs my troll and made some somewhat-educated guesses about how bash would affect ogres nowadays, all the people who chimed in vehemently disagreed. They all said FSI still basically makes you immune to frontal interrupts.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339872&highlight=Troll+ogre+bash&page=3 page 3 has someone saying all his logs on green only show 2 instances of bash instantly interrupting his ogre shaman... and potentially those happened when not frontal. So yeah, it kinda sounds like bash can't (or almost never can) interrupt an ogre from the front.

[DMN]

Hrmm, from what i recall of original EQ bash had a flat chance to immediately interrupt no channeling check, a flat chance to stun (something like 30% chance), a chance to interrupt just from doing damage and getting a channeling check. Bash also seemed to have increased chance to interrupt even it only did damage. FSI should do nothing for any of those outside of the stuns.

For shaman trying to solo tough, summoning mobs toward "end game", it should be so easy to time your casts between bashes that it won't be terribly relevant. For Sk's it might have some applications in frantically trying to get FD off. But if you got 4 mobs on you, that first FD probably gonna get interrupted no matter stun or not due to the first round of bashes and then afterwards should be able to get at least a couple FDs attemps with the bash not a factor at all. probably be dead by the time their bashes recycles anwyay.

[Tecmos Deception]

If you look at the first post in my thread, I wondered if the different log readouts and different way bash interrupts (like, it sometimes interrupts my troll's cast immediately even if it doesn't stun, or sometimes the interrupt doesn't come until the spell cast finishes) meant the sort of thing you're talking about.

But it seemed like too minor of a detail to be able to find classic commentary on it, so I didn't really pursue.

[Brut]

FSI is FSI, there's no spell interrupt unless it's push. Just back in a corner and you can tank the entire zone and still channel your spells.

As far as OP, SK solos way better for sure, albeit pally can sorta compete with Ghoulbane on undead mobs. Also ogre SK you'll be rocking a 55% penalty as opposed to dwarf pally 40%.

[Keebz]

Also ogre SK you'll be rocking a 55% penalty as opposed to dwarf pally 40%.

It's a 61% penalty, because as all things EverQuest, it's multiplicative.

1.4 * 1.15 = 1.61

[Troxx]

So which of these could I realistically achieve more with in a shorter span of time and with less engagement?

If you’re talking green/teal?

Paladin by far. Double xp penalty will slow you down a lot.

For blue? They should make similar progress.

I’ve always considered paladins the superior group tank (of all 3). The added bonus of being able to heal is the icing on the cake but they make quite good pullers with lull. Paladins bring the total package to the table.

[Brut]

It's a 61% penalty, because as all things EverQuest, it's multiplicative.

1.4 * 1.15 = 1.61

TIL (and wish I didn't?). Only times I really feel the massive hurt tho is hell levels, it's generally not that bad.
If we talk pulling, pretty sure FD is way better for it than Lull, since when the crit resists comes along you either let the pally die or you deal with what's coming. But if your group tank is pulling, it's already a mess of a group.

[Polycaster]

To greatly oversimplify it, Pal is slightly better in most situations than the SK, but in a few situations SK is far better (generally involving FD and/or snare). As an enchanter on blue, I was always super happy to get either as a tank, didn't really care which. SK is far more convenient to play than a Paladin due to having both kinds of invis, FD (great for extended AFKs), decent solo/duo capability,

SK tends to get better relative to a paladin the smaller a group is. SK snare/fearing + some other melee is one of the few melee duos that's actually pretty efficient.

FSI was huge on my SK because I was almost always casting a spell as a mob was inc, when they had bash loaded. If it was interrupted a slow might draw agro for a couple seconds till you get the next spell off. Not huge, but if you are trying to spoil the casters so the next time they group with a warrior they pull agro and die its important ;)

[Asteria]

So which of these could I realistically achieve more with in a shorter span of time and with less engagement?

Since both classes will suffer slower leveling with the hybrid exp penalty pain on this server, I think they will both be rather slow unless you stay in the best exp zones in the game throughout most of your leveling and/or get some power-leveling.

That said, I would go dwarf pally for several reasons:
- 1999 ogre and troll models are absurdly blocky, fat, and comical :( It's like Minecraft or something in 3D?
- Flaming swords (Soulfire, Fiery Avenger, Fiery defender)
- Barrel rolls!! Few have that ability on Green
- You don't need shrink pots, Guise of the deceiver clicky, or a friendly grouped shaman to shrink you constantly to fit in alot of dungeons more better
- I have seen far more SKs than paladins on Green
- I have seen a monumental amount of Ogre players on Green
- I have seen few Dwarven players on Green
- Feign death saves the SK, first and foremost. If a pull is too big without FD, there are so many SKs and monks around already it seems to FD pull. No FD pull necessary with a very good chanter to lull and/or mez adds. Lay on hands or an extra normal heal can save your healer in a very sticky situation - sometimes making you the hero of the hour.

[Brut]

To greatly oversimplify it, Pal is slightly better in most situations than the SK
We talking about the ability to cast lvl19 cleric buffs at lvl49?

[Troxx]

We talking about the ability to cast lvl19 cleric buffs at lvl49?

That’s not even remotely accurate. Check the wiki.

To greatly oversimplify it, Pal is slightly better in most situations than the SK, but in a few situations SK is far better (generally involving FD and/or snare).

Regarding groups, it’s more like paladin is frankly better (not slightly) in most situations. In a few situations SKs can pull things off a paladin can’t. In the scope of holding threat and taking hits they are equal. Damage is comparable with the SK holding a minor advantage if they use spells. But they get to only rarely due to mana constraints in most groups.

In an head to head match off SKs uniquely have snare, fear and FD. These spells make for some impressive situational power plays it’s true but that’s basically it. They do have some self heal potential but it’s comparatively weak for the mana cost. In terms of global utility, that’s pretty much it.

Paladins? Root (only tank with it), multiple stuns, pacify, potent targeted heals including a fast cast overpowered heal over time, a unique stacking hp buff line, cleric buff lines up to include 2nd best cleric symbol and standard hp buff, resist buffs, 90% rez, DA.

Specials? LoH runs circles around harm touch.

Both knights are exceedingly capable at tanking and holding threat. The power difference is in the sum total toolkit. The paladin toolkit is insanely broad and potent for a tank class. It’s for this reason that paladins are simply better all around in most situations. The utility and toolkit helps both the paladin and the group. SK toolkit is smaller and mostly only helps the SK.

If you really need a pull completed, can’t risk a lull resist, and have nobody more capable then yes SKs are better. If you’re in a small duo/trio without a healer then yes snare/fear is OP. If you’re on a raid and need bodies to help the pull team ... yes SK is the way to go.

As an aside, SKs do have the creature comfort of mobility with invis/fd. In that regard they can be more convenient for the player piloting the toon.

[Snaggles]

Across the board Pal spells are also faster casting so interrupts are less common. FOL has half the recast time as DC. Stun costs half the mana as Shroud of Pain. Heals are much more efficient across the board. Come Kunark self-healing with a DW helm or BP is amazing.

I soloed to 60 with the pally. I have a sk and will do the same, probably easier. The SK has some nice tools for split pulls (snare + FD). Great for tanking and pulling off weird solo/duo tricks. The pally though is a better group tank if anyone else can snare (get an epic Druid). An OCD players dream.

[Grimstrike]

Dwarf Paladin for the STR to wear all of that sweet Bronze! Grab a Deepwater Harpoon and you are set into your 20s. You can get a Bullsmasher, Mino Axe or a Shining Star of Light and a Shiny Brass Shield.

[Keebz]

If you already did the 'good' route with the shaman, go SK. Leveling in the same zones twice in a row is for the birds.

[BlackBellamy]

I'll be doing 50% solo 50% tanking in groups I'd say.

Yeah. As an Ogre SK who has traveled the world, soloing various popular spots and teaching the local inhabitants to fear my mailed fist, I have never ever seen a Paladin soloing anything anywhere. Ever. Oh, I've run into them. I see them here and there. But sitting down at some camp solo, never. I compete with all the cloth casters, bards, priests; all voracious campers and soloers. I sometimes see another SK, but never a Pally. There is a reason for that I think.

[Snaggles]

Yeah. As an Ogre SK who has traveled the world, soloing various popular spots and teaching the local inhabitants to fear my mailed fist, I have never ever seen a Paladin soloing anything anywhere. Ever. Oh, I've run into them. I see them here and there. But sitting down at some camp solo, never. I compete with all the cloth casters, bards, priests; all voracious campers and soloers. I sometimes see another SK, but never a Pally. There is a reason for that I think.

Hmm, well I've never seen a narwhal but they exist ;).

I soloed to 60 as a pally almost exclusively. Grobb guards from 45-54 and HK/Hole/Karnors the rest of the time. Super easy, never had a fungi either.

At level 55 I killed this by myself in the Hole using a Narandi Lance when it was 38/45.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Rocksoul

Probably 7 procs and over 10 mins of fighting. That was prior to the knight dps upgrade and healing with a DW helm. With a deepwater BP and a bag of jaspers you can heal 3x faster, about 30hps/second.

I still think pallies are not the best soloers but they certainly get by. They don't need a football field to kill a mob either....root it 3 feet away and just stare at it while you click back hps.

[Vexenu]

^ This is why Pally/Rogue is such an underrated XP duo at 45+. Each class perfectly compensates for the other's weakness. The Pally can tank/heal/CC and the Rogue just unloads DPS. Helm heals are more than adequate with the Rogue shooting your kill speed through the roof. Minimal downtime. Two of the worst solo classes combine for a surprisingly good duo for grinding out XP mobs.

[DMN]

Hmm, well I've never seen a narwhal but they exist ;).

I soloed to 60 as a pally almost exclusively.



Now do it with vanilla weapons and likely no haste. Hehe.

paladins can certainly solo but it's incredibly slow and not very efficient.

And as far as needing a "football field" to solo as an SK, that's just not true; you just need one decent strip, just long enough for a full duration invoke on a dark'd mob. Then you just run back to the beginning after fear breaks. You can even do it even more tight aeas once you have higher darks, like dooming, and then you can just use plain old fear hich won't last near as long. You'll loose efficiency but significantly reduce the amount of territory you need to use.

SK solo is still slow but it's miles more efficient than paladins.

As far as grouping it's always going to come down to the group composition. Relative to original EQ, p99 is loaded with bards, enchanter, clerics, many of whom will outstrip of lot of the tools in the paladin kit. a lot of the time your fucnion will end up 100% the same as the SK in most groups, snap aggro/general aggro tanking.

[Snaggles]

SK solo is still slow but it's miles more efficient than paladins.


My response to the previous post was not a blanket Pally > SK. Nor was it debating efficiency or access to gear making it easy on green/teal. I was rebutting that the false assumption that paladins cannot solo for xp at all. Simply put, warriors can solo to 50 on pre-Kunark and to 60 later on. A pally is a lackluster warrior that can root and heal...it’s not a stretch of one's logic this can be a possibility.

I’m not going to touch your group dynamic comments. Stuns, root, additive hp buffs, heals and an instant ench/cleric saving skill vs snare and FD? You be the judge.

I love my SK and my pally. The pally was and is more boring solo wise but more fun for group play (IMHO). I'd suggest leveling up both classes eventually. Doing so with a green/teal xp penalty is a labor of love though. I'd probably pick the one that most speaks to me. If you buy/camp your gear properly half the junk will swap over anyways.

[DMN]

No ever one said you couldn't solo as a paladin. Someone had said they never saw a paladin soloing a camp. I've only see it once on P99 and it was on green, some mid 40s paladin trying to camp a guise by himself. Let's just say it didn't end well.

[Troxx]

I doubt a sk could solo my stomping ground (KC basement) nearly as well as my paladin did. I did about 25% of 59 solo there and probably 1/3 of my total xp 56+ solo. Being able to root/disengage/recover/continue is a big plus. Downtime self healing that doesn’t require being in combat? Also a big plus.

SK fear kite is a big perk but it gets harder and harder to find good places to do it the higher level you get. It requires more space than a lot of hunting grounds can safely support. From 46 on with deepwater helmet click, paladins hunting grounds stay wide open.

Solo is slow for both knights. You’re kidding yourself if you think paladins aren’t good at it though. Slow as the kills were, it was generally on par over time with full group xp. My favorite was always finding a necro to duo with.

[Crede]

I doubt a sk could solo my stomping ground (KC basement) nearly as well as my paladin did. I did about 25% of 59 solo there and probably 1/3 of my total xp 56+ solo. Being able to root/disengage/recover/continue is a big plus. Downtime self healing that doesn’t require being in combat? Also a big plus.

SK fear kite is a big perk but it gets harder and harder to find good places to do it the higher level you get. It requires more space than a lot of hunting grounds can safely support. From 46 on with deepwater helmet click, paladins hunting grounds stay wide open.

Solo is slow for both knights. You’re kidding yourself if you think paladins aren’t good at it though. Slow as the kills were, it was generally on par over time with full group xp. My favorite was always finding a necro to duo with.

I’d say they are in the same ballpark. I have a pally and sk, I find the sk solo more powerful if calm is not needed. Max 52/58 pet is no joke, way more dps than a weak dot. Potentially 3 lifetap procs if you include epic, access to superior races with regen/fsi, self, ds, atk buffs, and life tap spells. Not hard to have a few bags worth of root nets for emergency situations and shouldn’t need to be constantly rooting with a properly split camp.

Also a lot of room is not needed for fear kiting if you know what you’re doing, doesn’t require the immense amount of room that you’d think. Sk fear kiting rats in Pom will likely be better solo xp than a pally can do 55+.

[Cen]

Ive been playing all the tanks, but only all in the teens with basic spells. I am surprised I like tanks the most nowadays. I am just stuck between SK and Warrior because on one hand, one at end of game can't actually tank anymore, and theres only one true tank, but I like the more fun one better ;p

[doublegrey]

I doubt a sk could solo my stomping ground (KC basement) nearly as well as my paladin did. I did about 25% of 59 solo there and probably 1/3 of my total xp 56+ solo. Being able to root/disengage/recover/continue is a big plus. Downtime self healing that doesn’t require being in combat? Also a big plus.

SK fear kite is a big perk but it gets harder and harder to find good places to do it the higher level you get. It requires more space than a lot of hunting grounds can safely support. From 46 on with deepwater helmet click, paladins hunting grounds stay wide open.

Solo is slow for both knights. You’re kidding yourself if you think paladins aren’t good at it though. Slow as the kills were, it was generally on par over time with full group xp. My favorite was always finding a necro to duo with.

Dont really want to jump in here but.....

at no point 1-60 is any tool the paladin have going to beat Shadowknight pulling unless he is just retarded and only has one hand.. I know you guys get all defensive but it's never, ever, ever easier to pull with a paladin over- FD, snare, pet, instant click invis.

Which is also why Shadowknights are better soloing over paladin, clerics and rogues. I think just every other class beats them.

[Snaggles]

Cool straw man argument. I missed the part he said anything about pulling in your quoted block.

Paladins are worse at pulling than SK’s. No fire alarms are going off with that proposal..

[Brut]

The entire premise looks like trying to bicker about two largely different classes and sell one as objectively better for doing a thing the other class doesn't have in their toolset, then downplay the other class for a thing the other class doesn't have in their toolset.

[Troxx]

Dont really want to jump in here but.....

at no point 1-60 is any tool the paladin have going to beat Shadowknight pulling unless he is just retarded and only has one hand.. I know you guys get all defensive but it's never, ever, ever easier to pull with a paladin over- FD, snare, pet, instant click invis.

Which is also why Shadowknights are better soloing over paladin, clerics and rogues. I think just every other class beats them.

Sk's make formidable pullers it's true but pulling with pacify/lull and 180 charisma is pretty easy.

[doublegrey]

Cool straw man argument. I missed the part he said anything about pulling in your quoted block.

Paladins are worse at pulling than SK’s. No fire alarms are going off with that proposal..

*cough* above and the camp he is taking about. Annnnnnnnnnyway I'm out, op should have an idea now except for those diehards

[Danth]

Lull pulling is quicker and takes much less mana* than feign pulling in situations where the lull-type spells can be expected to land reliably (low blues, which by nature includes much experience fodder). Feign is clearly far superior for splitting difficult monsters or as a safer option for situations where there's no place to run to in the event of trouble. Even on my Shadow Knight I'll gladly use Rest the Dead in preference to snare/feign when I'm able to do so safely. Different tools for different jobs.

*Shadow Knights who have blood ember gloves/legs can feign split for no mana, but it's still quite slow. Paladins of course have a Soothe click available.

-----------------------------------

For what the original poster seems to want I recommend Paladin. Shadow Knight is too much of a late bloomer for me to suggest it as an "occasional" alt.

Danth

[Snaggles]

The OP can't really lose IMHO. Both are great classes. So much that it's not rare to find someone with a SK and a pally (pallies are more rare than sk's, probably the least played toon on the server). The SK will solo easier but both are capable of it.

If I had to start from scratch on green/teal I'd prob lean paladin; Unrest was made for a dwarf pally. The lowbie cleric hp/ac buff is more efficient than self heals until greater healing. At 22 the SK can effectively fear-kite so I'd say they tie at that point since mobs aren't hitting too hard. Gear wise on classic the Ghoulbane is a serious weapon and seems to be selling for only slightly more than on blue (800p); I dinged lvl 40 in hag tower so it would be my path.

Blue changes some stuff up, especially if you have tons of plat or are raiding (sk epic ftw). The DW helm is seriously underrated if you have the patience to click your way to victory. It's definitely easier save up for than a fungi.