ELI5: Do exp penalty’s get transferred to the group?

[Smellybuttface]

If I’m a Troll SK, does my horrific exp penalty get transferred over to my group? I’ve seen some conflicting posts about this, and wanted to put this baby to bed once and for all. Am I badly screwing over my group by playing as a hybrid? Or is the penalty only assessed against me personally?

[Tecmos Deception]

Transferred? Kind of.

When a group kills a mob for exp, the exp is split up between group members based on their proportions of total exp earned so far. So if everyone in a group is the same level, the troll SK is going to have a higher amount of exp earned in order to get to that point than the halfling rogue, and therefore will receive a much larger portion of the exp from that one kill.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works

[Keebz]

I don't know the exact formula, but yes–you will eat up a larger percent of the group exp than a class without an exp penalty of the same level–higher level players also eat up a larger percent of the exp.

It's still the correct trade if you're a good tank, imho. So I wouldn't say you are screwing your group over.

However, if you are a bad tank or just DPSing and not providing some other other utility (e.g. pulling, snaring, fearing, etc.), it's generally not a good deal for the group.

[Videri]

Yes, your exp is shared with the group; but it's not as though the whole group has a 68% exp penalty. The penalty is shared or divided among the group. You should read this brief wiki snippet because it will truly answer all questions:

http://wiki.project1999.com/Experience#How_Experience_Works

Always make sure to check the wiki and forums for information. Hopefully no one on the forums is going around saying exp penalties are not shared, because that's wrong.

Class exp penalties are removed during Velious, which Blue is already in; so perhaps someone said there aren't class exp penalties because they were referring to Blue. Racial exp penalties remain.

[Tecmos Deception]

The penalty is shared or divided among the group.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that people saying stuff like this is probably what confused the OP in the first place. This sentence suggests the penalty is actually a penalty, that you earn less exp per kill as a troll SK and that when you join a group everyone earns somewhat less exp per kill. Only someone who already knows how exp in groups works will correctly understand what you mean when you say this.

[cd288]

As Videri said, in essence it's kind of like the EXP penalty gets apportioned out among each member of the group, which is why some groups don't want hybrids (but ironically don't seem to care about having multiple Monks, which would be the equivalent of having 1 Pally/Bard/Ranger, or 2 non-SK Ogres/Trolls).

[Videri]

If I had to guess, I'd guess that people saying stuff like this is probably what confused the OP in the first place. This sentence suggests the penalty is actually a penalty, that you earn less exp per kill as a troll SK and that when you join a group everyone earns somewhat less exp per kill. Only someone who already knows how exp in groups works will correctly understand what you mean when you say this.

Good point. Perhaps it could be called an exp appetite? Or some other word.

Though actually everyone does earn slightly less exp per kill, since the character with more total exp eats more exp. Right?

[Videri]

As Videri said, in essence it's kind of like the EXP penalty gets apportioned out among each member of the group, which is why some groups don't want hybrids (but ironically don't seem to care about having multiple Monks, which would be the equivalent of having 1 Pally/Bard/Ranger, or 2 non-SK Ogres/Trolls).

Another thing the wiki says: "In your teens, a player 6 levels higher than you has 300 to 400% of your xp total... obviously much worse than the 140-168% of your total that a equal level hybrid has." So, if anyone is picking a level 20 warrior over a level 16 SK, they might not be making the right choice.

[Tecmos Deception]

On a slightly related note, it'd be fun to see how an exp bonus group and an exp penalty group actually fared over time. People like to say that "well the hybrid penalty isn't bad at all since a SK/pal is a better tank than a warrior so the group is more efficient" or "well a bard brings so much to the table that the 40% penalty is ok" or whatever.

But would a cleric+pal/sk+monk+magi+bard group actually level as fast or faster than a cleric+war+rogue+magi+sham group? Might not be a fair comparison since a sham or chanter is probably a stronger class than a bard even if the bard didn't have an exp penalty.

[cd288]

Another thing the wiki says: "In your teens, a player 6 levels higher than you has 300 to 400% of your xp total... obviously much worse than the 140-168% of your total that a equal level hybrid has." So, if anyone is picking a level 20 warrior over a level 16 SK, they might not be making the right choice.

That's a good point.

Maybe we shouldn't really call them EXP penalties at all, since it's not that 68% of the EXP for a mob an Ogre SK kills just disappears and doesn't go to the Ogre, it's that the total amount of EXP required for an Ogre SK to ding is that much higher per level than someone without that. Seems like somewhat of a misnomer to call it a penalty and maybe confuses people in the group situations.

[Tecmos Deception]

Just doing my usual devil's advocate thing here: the example of 16 and 20? The warrior is only like 10% more exp than the SK but by being both a warrior AND 4 levels higher, will be a monstrously stronger tank. A level 15 that beats up the SK decent won't scratch the warrior, an 18 that annihilates the SK would be just another blue con for the warrior, etc.

While it's true that a level 16 has 4x as much exp as a level 10, it's not really something that comes up a lot I don't think.

[cd288]

On a slightly related note, it'd be fun to see how an exp bonus group and an exp penalty group actually fared over time. People like to say that "well the hybrid penalty isn't bad at all since a SK/pal is a better tank than a warrior so the group is more efficient" or "well a bard brings so much to the table that the 40% penalty is ok" or whatever.

But would a cleric+pal/sk+monk+magi+bard group actually level as fast or faster than a cleric+war+rogue+magi+sham group? Might not be a fair comparison since a sham or chanter is probably a stronger class than a bard even if the bard didn't have an exp penalty.

Except casters have a 10% exp penalty I believe, so if you wanted to have only EXP bonus or neutral classes, wouldn't it have to be only Warriors, Rogues, and priest classes (with no races that have penalties)?

On the Bard, pre-clarity I definitely think a Bard is a huge help for both mana and HP regen. Post-level 29 it's not as helpful since you can just have an Ench with clarity, CC, and great DPS via charming rather than incur the 40% Bard penalty.

[Tecmos Deception]

Except casters have a 10% exp penalty I believe, so if you wanted to have only EXP bonus or neutral classes, wouldn't it have to be only Warriors, Rogues, and priest classes (with no races that have penalties)?

On the Bard, pre-clarity I definitely think a Bard is a huge help for both mana and HP regen. Post-level 29 it's not as helpful since you can just have an Ench with clarity, CC, and great DPS via charming rather than incur the 40% Bard penalty.

I wouldn't really be comparing pure bonuses vs pure penalties. I mostly meant to examine whether the big penalties that people worry about - bards, paladins, SKs, trolls/ogres - can keep up with a similar group composition but without the big exp penalties.

[Hazek]

Some already clarified but i'll try to simplify:

Whoever has the most total exp gets the biggest portion when its divided from a kill.

Hybrids or races with exp penalties take more overall exp to reach the same level as non-hybrid / races so they get a bigger cut at the same level

But since a higher level also has relatively more exp they can also get a bigger cut.

I'm not sure where the line is that makes them equal. But the best grouped exp will be the one that can kill the most efficiently with the least amount of players that are all the same level without any classes or races with penalties.

So just consider the penalty + their level above yours + what they can contribute and decide based on that. And know that somewhere around 2+ levels is about the same as having a hybrid.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I could have sworn the XP needed for each level with class/race modifiers was known. Surprised someone hasn't come up with a quick web app that calculates the percentage of mob XP each group member would get after any group bonuses were added back in.

Or, maybe its better that this doesn't exist...

[Smellybuttface]

I could have sworn the XP needed for each level with class/race modifiers was known. Surprised someone hasn't come up with a quick web app that calculates the percentage of mob XP each group member would get after any group bonuses were added back in.

Or, maybe its better that this doesn't exist...

Are group member exp bonuses calculated at the same time as the penalty’s are? So if an Ogre Warrior with a 15% racial penalty but a 10% class bonus, does this mean it’s in effect a net 5% penalty? I was wondering why I see hardly any SK’s or Paladin’s in game, so I’m guessing this penalty hits a lot harder than I thought it would. Makes me almost not want to group with anything but Halfling Rogues.

[Videri]

dAre group member exp bonuses calculated at the same time as the penalty’s are? So if an Ogre Warrior with a 15% racial penalty but a 10% class bonus, does this mean it’s in effect a net 5% penalty? I was wondering why I see hardly any SK’s or Paladin’s in game, so I’m guessing this penalty hits a lot harder than I thought it would. Makes me almost not want to group with anything but Halfling Rogues.

It's my understanding the exp modifiers are multiplicative. I think that means it goes like this: 10% of 115% is 11.5%; if we take 11.5% off of 115%, we're left with 103.5%. Is that right?

Also, I want to suggest to anyone reading about this stuff that you just ignore the exp modifiers (penalty/bonus). Don't worry about hybrids or Ogres or casters or Halflings or any of that. Just form effective and well-rounded groups and get exp. Focus on friends and fun. Perhaps you could eke out an extra 5% efficiency or something by min-maxing group content, but it's up to you whether that's worth it. You're going to end up at level 60 and then keep playing.

Exp modifiers do not mean mean you SHOULDN'T play certain class/race combos or group with certain characters.

[Cen]

He said explain like hes 5, so please use cookies pies or baklava analogies

[YendorLootmonkey]

I was wondering why I see hardly any SK’s or Paladin’s in game, so I’m guessing this penalty hits a lot harder than I thought it would. Makes me almost not want to group with anything but Halfling Rogues.

There’s two factors at play that I can think of:

1) The perception of how hard the XP penalty hits the group is sometimes different than reality. Not everyone understands how it works.
As was mentioned above, people like to shit on the thought of adding a hybrid to the group, yet do not bat an eye adding a non-hybrid to the group that is 3 levels higher than them. Everyone is just told repeatedly "hybrids are bad for XP, mmmkay?"

2) It's easier to roll and equip a melee later if you start as a caster. It's easy to tell the players who started with melee classes vs. those who are playing a melee alt with a caster main... the melee alts are much better equipped. As casters hit 50 and have tons of equip and plat to spend, I think you'll see an influx of tank/melee.

[fadetree]

The origin of the way exp works in groups is easier to understand if you know what it was based on. The intent is to have people in a group that all fight together progress towards their next ding at the same rate. When you get exp, you really need to think of it as distance covered to your next ding rather than some number of points. A troll sk has a longer distance to cover than the halfling does, so the only way to keep them getting the same distance covered is to move the troll a little more than the halfling. Since they only have 1 unchanging experience amount to share, that means the troll takes some points away from the halfling. But - If they start in a group with no exp earned, and they fight all night in that group until they ding, they would ding at approximately the same time.

[Hazek]

The origin of the way exp works in groups is easier to understand if you know what it was based on. The intent is to have people in a group that all fight together progress towards their next ding at the same rate. When you get exp, you really need to think of it as distance covered to your next ding rather than some number of points. A troll sk has a longer distance to cover than the halfling does, so the only way to keep them getting the same distance covered is to move the troll a little more than the halfling. Since they only have 1 unchanging experience amount to share, that means the troll takes some points away from the halfling. But - If they start in a group with no exp earned, and they fight all night in that group until they ding, they would ding at approximately the same time.

Couldn't they just have everyone get an even split? Cause I thought they had the exp penalties because they assumed some races / classes were stronger and would level faster.

[Tecmos Deception]

Couldn't they just have everyone get an even split? Cause I thought they had the exp penalties because they assumed some races / classes were stronger and would level faster.

The original EQ devs are like the original D&D devs.

"Hey guys, I just thought up this thing we'll call THAC0! It'll be the perfect way to determine hits and misses!"