Learn Me Good

[quido]

I'd like to know the black and white rules regarding claiming (non-raid) mobs at this point. It seems that everyone has their own interpretation of the rules that they invoke at will to complain about whatever it is.

I was under the impression that things pretty much stood at "if it's not engaged, it's not claimed." I tried to find the post where I read that - I thought it was an Uthgaard or a Rogean thing designed to make things easy for everyone, including the GMs. I thought that for you to call a mob "yours" you had to either be sitting over or around its spawn or already fighting it. I've always sort of borne the question "how bad do you want it?" in mind. It's like going to a rock concert and trying to get to the front row - how bad do you want it? If you want something, take it! All you need to do is want it more than the next guy.

Now there's the other whiny side of the argument. "I'm claiming these mobs and if you pull any of them I'm gonna cry about it in /say." We're all hungry for experience. We're all hungry for drops. Everyone wants their own little piece of Norrath and I'll be damned if I'm not going to try and get mine. The problem with the "respect camps 100%" platform is first that no one ever does. Second, it is impossible to define what is and isn't allowed. If a (slow) group was claiming LGuk Lord and the hallway mobs and another group wants some of that hallway action, who is to stop them? I thought that was the idea, that if you're willing to accept poor enough experience (or whatever) yourself, you can break off a little piece of just about anything and call it your own.

Personally I would like to live in a Norrath where everyone had partitioned, bountiful camps and nobody ever "stole" a mob. Unfortunately there is an amount of scarcity in Norrath just like the real world that will prevent such a utopia from ever existing. For a long time I tried to respect the mobs that people were "claiming" no matter how ineffectively they killed them. And sometimes it's worse than others, but people often lay claim to camps they can barely handle and consequently leave several mobs up constantly. When I can't find any decent mobs to kill, are these not fair game? I mean, if it's really yours, you should be fighting it, in my opinion. "No I get twenty and you get ZERO!" This is bullshit. At what point can you eventually slide in there and call some of those mobs yours? If you asked the people there first they'd say "never." If you asked a group that's hungry for experience and has no mobs they'd say "immediately." So what is really right here on this server? Can I take/claim some of those LGuk Lord hallway mobs legitimately? If people are hard up enough and willing to deal with the misery, can a second group split KC Captain into two, especially if the first group is clearing slowly? How long is too long to engage a mob before it is "unclaimed?" One minute? Two minutes? Five minutes?

If I want something badly enough I will do everything I can to get it. If I'm in a group in KC basement and someone pulls some of the mobs that I think belong to my group I don't whine in /say about it. I think to myself "damn it, we'd better get those fuckers next time." And hopefully we do.

My point here is that you can't really claim anything, and that trying to live in a Norrath that creates a huge gray area in which people will wallow is completely absurd. I thought the black and white rules were "if it's not engaged, it's not claimed." Is this wrong? Perhaps someone could link me to the thread where a ridiculous set of camp rules are clearly defined?

Please, learn me good!

[Mardur]

The way the rules are worded is that a group can only camp one room at a time, and anything not being camped is free game. For example, if a D2 group is sitting in Commander, by the rules posted here a group is free to move into Pickler and just kill those 3 mobs if they want Pickler enough.

Unfortunately the GMs don't actually enforce the rules posted on this forum. I've seen all kinds of crazy decisions when it comes to camps, which usually depends on whichever GM responds to the petition. In the example above, if a group actually moved into Pickler while a group was at D2, I bet a GM would kick the group out of Pickler which would go against the "official" camp rules.

Not trying to flame any specific GMs or anything, just saying that the rules seem to be open to GM interpretation. Your best bet is just being cordial and trying to work out camp disputes among yourselves. If a GM shows up, you'll most likely be unhappy with the results.

TLDR: There's posted rules but they don't matter. Try to just work things out among yourselves.

[Kassel]

So we are sitting in seb this weekend and our shaman has to go. We see Jeremy yell 59 shaman LFG. Our shaman says do you guys want him to rep me? 2 people in the group said NO, that guy was a jerk stealing mobs in KC.

I laughed and agreed.

It takes 2 seconds to find

Greetings,

We will be tweaking this along with some other rules as we move forward but it is time to address some issues with camps that have been coming up. I will try to use some examples to clarify rules.

1. Going forward, if you intend to hold or claim a camp, your group must retain presence at that camp. If you have no competition in the zone, you are more than welcome to hold as many as you like. The moment another party wants to claim a camp and you are "farming" multiple, you must decide which camp you want and forfeit the ones someone else is interested in. We still expect players to use the courtesy camp check before zerging a room. If there is a full spawn of mobs in a camp room up I think that would be considered not camped. How you pull the camp is up to you, as long as you are able to engage the mobs very shortly after they are spawned.

*Example* You are doing Ghoul Magi, Lord, and Frenzy in lguk. Another group arrives to claim a camp. If they stumble upon a spawned room devoid of players, they can claim it. Where your group resides is your camp; choose wisely.

2. Just because you know the timer a mob's spawn does NOT mean you are entitled to the camp. Examples include Ishva mal, Estrella, and Undertow. I have seen too many threads about ishva mal in particular where there is a person there at the camp and someone comes and either KS's the spawn or charms the mob to bring it somewhere else etc claiming it was theirs due to it being on timer. If you are trying to timer a spawn and you arrive and someone else is there, too bad, you should have been there earlier.

3. The efreeti spawn kind of covers both of these situations, with this camp in particular if you are not at the spawn and another group arrives, you lose it.

4. In order to hold a camp, the player or group must be able to demonstrate the ability to hold the camp without further help.
*Example* An enchanter and lvl 40 ranger are in a group. The enchanter leaves to go kill frenzy and the ranger stay at lord. In this instance both camps are not considered held as the ranger could not survive this camp on his own without the enchanter.

5. Outdoor pathing mobs are not campable unless you are sitting at the spawn point and able to engage it instantly. Outdoor mobs on fast respawn such as HG and spectres, if you cannot engage immediately you do not hold the camp. Please try and share with fellow players in these instances.

6. AFK camping is not respected and is frowned upon, if caught afk camping you will be booted to the character select screen.

7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off.

Any deal between players trumps any of these rules so long as all players agree. These rules are here to be a guide to players for what rights they have while in the game. In my opinion this is very similar to what SoE did with camp disputes in game. As Nilbog has said in this thread, in 99 every named spawn in zones would have entire groups at them. If one group was capitalizing on more than one spawn and a second group wanted half or to share and then petitioned, PNP would be enforced and the groups would be forced to share. This is a guide explaining how we would like things to be shared.

Failure to comply and respect these rules will be viewed as disruptive behavior and players will be subject to disciplinary action. Please dont let it come to this.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2653

[quido]

Well first off, it's nothing personal, it's strictly business. Most people know I'm an effective groupmate and a nice guy in general.

And secondly, I thought those rules had been superseded by now. Sometimes I have people quoting posts from 2009 to me. That post is from January of 2010 and I'm pretty sure those rules don't apply any more. Am I wrong?

Honestly, I'm glad idiots will bear a grudge. Hate me for taking mobs you don't clear quickly enough. Please. Because if this is your basis of judgment for a person, you are clearly a fucking moron.

[Susanbanthony]

I was always under the impression that if a mob is not engaged, and if you are not sitting on its spawn point, it is FFA.

Guess I could be mistaken?

[Kassel]

I would not say they do not apply, now enforcement that is another question. My general rule of thumb is that if it is still stickied there is a good chance it is still applicable.

[Mardur]

a. Jeremy > Hassel
b. Those rules still "apply" but like I said in my post, I've never seen them enforced 100% as they're written.

For example, KC. It doesn't really have campable "rooms." Drolvarg Captain is really the only camp spot that is clearly defined. If you're anywhere else, it's been a free for all since day 1 of Kunark. Everyone who has grouped there knows this.

[Kassel]

I was always under the impression that if a mob is not engaged, and if you are not sitting on its spawn point, it is FFA.

Guess I could be mistaken?

I am under the impression this is for #5 wrt to outdoor pathing mobs only, HOWEVER a room is what is considered a camp, thus you would be at a spawnmpoint anyway. An updated camp post would be nice =D

[quido]

Someone find me the post where Uthgaard or Rogean wiped the slate clean on rules and said if it's not engaged, it's not claimed. I know it's out there.

[Seaweedpimp]

If i step into a room and its full spawn with nobody in it, ill take it.

[Dirtnap]

When im camping any camp, i don't mind sharing if i am ASKED. Run in and attack my camp and i'm going to be pissed. Walk up to me and say "Hey, mind if i snag some of these?" and 80% of the time i'll gladly say sure.

If i tend to be soloing somewhere, and another soloer shows up, i usually ask if they want to duo, so we aren't fighting each other for mobs. No reason to be an ass and hog everything just because i can.

[quido]

b. Those rules still "apply" but like I said in my post, I've never seen them enforced 100% as they're written.

I am almost certain that at some point a number of months ago, either Uthgaard or Rogean said something to the effect of "all previous rules regarding camps are abolished, you claim something by engaging it, period." I don't remember exactly when or what the post was. I think it might have even been a reply to another post. I've been trying to find this but I can't. I remember reading this and thinking "thank god" and taking exactly that from it. Maybe it was a dream? Does anyone else remember this?

Find me this post please. I suck at querying the interwebz I guess.

I think people are just clinging to whatever shred of (outdated) evidence that will support their cause.

[Rogean]

GM's would take more of a non-douchebaggery approach. For example, if your in LGuk and your camping "Lord"... obviously you aren't just sitting in the lord room killing those 3 mobs.. you would be killing the lord room plus the hallway all the way to the split between AM and Hand, and pretty commonly even including AM and Hand. Now if there is a group that wants to take AM and/or Hand, those can be considered a separate camp and taken by another group, as any dispute on live would have similarily resulted in a 'play nice and share' decision. However, which of these groups lay claim to the mobs in the hallway would be a gray area, and would possibly be FTE by any group camping those 3 spots.

Now if you're camping lord and someone moves into the hallway and sets camp up THERE and starts killing hallway mobs, well that's a douchebag move, which would be handled appropriately.

From a GM's perspective, theres no reason why two groups couldn't be at Lord and AM each.. and share the hallway by whoever pulls the mob first. The Lord group would argue that the hallway should be theirs because AM has the option of pulling from further down towards the safe hall. However, each group's spot connects to that hallway and could have a right to pull those mobs.

This is just one example, and short of defining clear camp spots and what mobs are included in those spots for every single place in the game, you are inevitably going to run into many of these 'gray' areas where two groups feel entitled to pull mobs from the same spot. This is why it is GM Discretion. There's no easy rule that could apply in every situation.

[Rogean]

I am almost certain that at some point a number of months ago, either Uthgaard or Rogean said something to the effect of "all previous rules regarding camps are abolished, you claim something by engaging it, period." I don't remember exactly when or what the post was. I think it might have even been a reply to another post. I've been trying to find this but I can't. I remember reading this and thinking "thank god" and taking exactly that from it. Maybe it was a dream? Does anyone else remember this?

Find me this post please. I suck at querying the interwebz I guess.

I think people are just clinging to whatever shred of (outdated) evidence that will support their cause.

Those were the raid rules. Raid mobs were first to engage.

[quido]

So at what point can a person steal a claimed mob? How slow does a KC Captain group have to be before you can take just one of a number of Drolvargs that are up? I understand and appreciate the non-douchebaggery concept, but yeah, I guess I'm a noob and don't know. Are we really expected to condone slow, ineffective clearing simply in the name of politeness? That's unfair to everyone else in the sense that we are forced to have fewer pops in X amount of time at these spots.

[Susanbanthony]

What if you're in LGUK safe hall soloing, and you have cleared up to that hallway. Somebody is camping lord (and therefore claiming that hallway) but these are the only mobs left for the soloer? Would that fall under this:

From a GM's perspective, theres no reason why two groups couldn't be at Lord and AM each.. and share the hallway by whoever pulls the mob first.

So if I'm soling and pull a hallway mob first it is mine?

[Bruman]

Heaven forbid people just try to share, and quit being man-children about it. Mobs can be scarce. If your group isn't fast enough, another group gets it. If a zone is overcrowded, every group ends up with downtime until some people decide to go somewhere less crowded - noone is forcing you to stay there. I know it gets a little more difficult with named spawns, but all the more reason to keep your group rockin'.

Let's just play nice, everyone respect everyone else, spread out where you can, and these issues don't matter. Nothing is more :eyeroll: than someone whining about getting a mob stolen.

[Uthgaard]

Camp rules mainly address named mobs, not xp trash.

If it's a named, and you want it, get on it, not around 3 corners, 2 closed doors and out of sight of it because you can pull it easier with the pathing bug in the middle.
If it's a named that can spawn anywhere, you can't really camp it, so it's whoever engages it first.
If it's an xp mob, just share the damn things. If you go pulling from the immediate vicinity of other groups, you're just escalating drama, because then they'll do the same thing to you, and neither group is going to average out ahead in the process. Apply some common sense, decency, and step back and look at the situation. Social reversibility is understood by 6 year olds, don't tell me anyone on this server can't manage it.

As for enforcing it, a lot of times it's he said-she said and everyone has an excuse. The average camp dispute takes an hour to resolve with logs, and even then it's still not a sure thing. And after that hour, everyone present will spam whoever made whatever decision with tells isolating single lines or words from the rules to try to twist the situation in their favor. You can't always break a camp dispute decision down into a single facet. It usually involves a comprehensive understanding of the situation, and in most cases, a lot of guessing over who's telling how much of the truth. And then following that, there's the infantile raging by at least one person who just can't let it go, and then if you suspend them to let them cool off, they'll just start spamming threads on the forums and wasting more time. By the time they've blown their whine wad, we're up to around 2.5 hours for a camp dispute. That shit is ridiculous.

If both parties are acting like babies and equally at fault, I'll eject everyone. It wouldn't matter if we had 50 guides, we still wouldn't have the time to deal with it every dispute. If you need to externalize all common sense, and expect us to come bring it to the table for you, don't expect us to do it with a smile, because there is always more to do, and players who need help through no fault of their own are higher on my priority list than people who 99% of the time are adults and can't act like it.

Fact is, one side will always come out pissed about the result of any camp dispute, and claim injustice, or favoritism, or that we suspended you for something you said in guildchat when it was really the juvenile hate tells you were sending, or whatever else justifies it to the rocks rattling around in their head. If you can't reach a resolution on your own, you really don't have any room to complain when someone else comes and reaches it for you.

[Mardur]

If it's a named that can spawn anywhere, you can't really camp it, so it's whoever engages it first.

And here is the entire point of this thread.

GM-A says the rules are that if a named has multiple spawn points, it's first to engage.

Player-A pulls a named in KC (which has multiple spawn points), kills it, gets loot. Player-B who happened to be camping nearby petitions. GM-B shows up.

GM-B says that Player-A shouldn't have pulled the named and Player-A gives the drop to Player-B

GM-B effectively undermines the rules stated by GM-A because all CSR have their own set of rules that contradict other CSRs' rules.

[quido]

Thank you Uthgaard. You learned me real good!

[Uthgaard]

And here is the entire point of this thread.

GM-A says the rules are that if a named has multiple spawn points, it's first to engage.

Player-A pulls a named in KC (which has multiple spawn points), kills it, gets loot. Player-B who happened to be camping nearby petitions. GM-B shows up.

GM-B says that Player-A shouldn't have pulled the named and Player-A gives the drop to Player-B

GM-B effectively undermines the rules stated by GM-A because all CSR have their own set of rules that contradict other CSRs' rules.

Fill in GM-A and GM-B with names, and one specific example. I'm calling you out on it, and I guarantee you can't do it without finagling details as described here:

And after that hour, everyone present will spam whoever made whatever decision with tells isolating single lines or words from the rules to try to twist the situation in their favor. You can't always break a camp dispute decision down into a single facet. It usually involves a comprehensive understanding of the situation, and in most cases, a lot of guessing over who's telling how much of the truth.

[quido]

Yeah I really don't care about the one relatively worthless item I lost today and am not really trying to make an issue of it; I do not seek an appeal. I seek merely to clarify the issue so that I know whether I'm in the right or the wrong going forward. The incident that occurred with Eashan this morning was pretty understandable on both sides of the table. I've always liked Eashan personally and that hasn't changed today because of a stupid Jade Mace. The truth is I would have pulled that mob regardless - named or not, mace or not. I'm more concerned with people threatening to be a waste of time and space over one trash exp mob when there are multiple others up. Get over it and pull something else, in my opinion. Or put the furious effort you apply to crying in /say towards pulling more foes.

[Asher]

How many camps are in Crypt in Old Sebilis?

I understand that people can claim named but in every Crypt group I have ever done crypt takes the 4 rooms, the roaming cube and emp.

If I walk in and see that Baron Yosig or PH is up can I park in the room and claim the camp? This would obviously be a dickish thing to do but I am curious how the rules would apply to a camp like that.

Asher

[Mcbard]

This would obviously be a dickish thing to do

Pretty sure the rules are created to stop dickish things from happening. You probably answered yourself, but I'm not exactly an authority on the matter.

Also, as of a couple of weeks ago emp/crypt were being treated as separate camps.

[Seaweedpimp]

How many camps are in Crypt in Old Sebilis?

I understand that people can claim named but in every Crypt group I have ever done crypt takes the 4 rooms, the roaming cube and emp.

If I walk in and see that Baron Yosig or PH is up can I park in the room and claim the camp? This would obviously be a dickish thing to do but I am curious how the rules would apply to a camp like that.

Asher

Ive seen this done before. Iirc.

[Asher]

Ive seen this done before. Iirc.

The way I read the rules this is perfectly legit, although a nice way to get blacklisted from future groups once the word gets out.

Asher

[Seaweedpimp]

Usually it wouldnt even matter, Its allways top guild vs top guild, but neither are all over crypt like they used to when it came available.

[Zereh]

By the time they've blown their whine wad

hahah <3

[Rhambuk]

How many camps are in Crypt in Old Sebilis?

I understand that people can claim named but in every Crypt group I have ever done crypt takes the 4 rooms, the roaming cube and emp.

If I walk in and see that Baron Yosig or PH is up can I park in the room and claim the camp? This would obviously be a dickish thing to do but I am curious how the rules would apply to a camp like that.

Asher

This is the sort of ridiculousness that uthgaard was talking about when he said that camp disputes take 2.5 hours to solve.

There are people that defend the idea that if you're sitting on the spawn point its yours, but you cannot sit in another persons camp and pull their mobs, as Rogean stated lord room in lguk is the camp and the hallway is the gray area you don't see people sitting at each mobs spawn.

Crypt is easily 1 room = 1 camp and I highly doubt that any gm would allow people to sit on the named spawn and claim it.

[Noser]

There are people that defend the idea that if you're sitting on the spawn point its yours, but you cannot sit in another persons camp and pull their mobs, as Rogean stated lord room in lguk is the camp and the hallway is the gray area you don't see people sitting at each mobs spawn.



That's how it is. I've lost fungi king because we were pulling him to exit and someone swooped into the spawn room for the claim. I've also won a race to king by invis'ing to his spawn point and dealing with the roamers. Like Jeremy said it depends on how bad you want the camp. You may have to sacrifice safety and exp to hold down that spawn point but if you are willing to do it then the named is yours.

[Rhambuk]

That's how it is. I've lost fungi king because we were pulling him to exit and someone swooped into the spawn room for the claim. I've also won a race to king by invis'ing to his spawn point and dealing with the roamers. Like Jeremy said it depends on how bad you want the camp. You may have to sacrifice safety and exp to hold down that spawn point but if you are willing to do it then the named is yours.

Well like Uthgaard said you need to be in the room or at least within vicinity of the mob, not down the hall and around corners, to claim it. I know that not all named mobs are in the best locations for exp or safety etc but that's something you have to take into account when you decide to take that camp, and also know that you are running the risk of losing it when you are not in the camp. As for racing that's going to happen, people try claiming camps or "taking" camps from zone in as they form up can't be surprised when another group takes it while they are trying to work down there.

Claiming a camp is simply maintaining presence, if there is a group in a room keeping it cleared then you really shouldn't be asking yourself "Should I pull these mobs when they spawn?". If you're not in the room but clearing it that's not really maintaining presence imo, you can sit in crypt and claim emp because you can clear that far but you really aren't there its not the camp you are claiming and if a group moves in you just lost that little bonus.

If one named camp isn't enough for you, not aimed at anyone in particular, than I suggest you alter your play times

[Dirtnap]

I always go with the you can camp rooms. Outdoors is kind of a gray area, but i try to think of them in room styles. Like bandit camps or derv camps. Each one is a single camp, even though they aren't in a room. Hallways aren't rooms, so don't count.

Walking away from the room, even for a second, means someone can swipe that camp. So watch what your doing.

[baigorn]

How many camps are in Crypt in Old Sebilis?

I understand that people can claim named but in every Crypt group I have ever done crypt takes the 4 rooms, the roaming cube and emp.

If I walk in and see that Baron Yosig or PH is up can I park in the room and claim the camp? This would obviously be a dickish thing to do but I am curious how the rules would apply to a camp like that.

Asher

Im pretty sure shit like this is the reason people get death touched =D

[Rejuvenation]

It seems pretty obvious to me that crypt camp contains the 5 named mobs but not emperor. If you can kill emperor as well, wonderful, but there's no reason a group can't move past you to claim the emp camp.

[Jjlent]

Fact is, one side will always come out pissed about the result of any camp dispute, and claim injustice, or favoritism, or that we suspended you for something you said in guildchat when it was really the juvenile hate tells you were sending, or whatever else justifies it to the rocks rattling around in their head. If you can't reach a resolution on your own, you really don't have any room to complain when someone else comes and reaches it for you.

hahahahahahaha i lol'd uth

[Asher]

Well like Uthgaard said you need to be in the room or at least within vicinity of the mob, not down the hall and around corners, to claim it. I know that not all named mobs are in the best locations for exp or safety etc but that's something you have to take into account when you decide to take that camp, and also know that you are running the risk of losing it when you are not in the camp. As for racing that's going to happen, people try claiming camps or "taking" camps from zone in as they form up can't be surprised when another group takes it while they are trying to work down there.

Claiming a camp is simply maintaining presence, if there is a group in a room keeping it cleared then you really shouldn't be asking yourself "Should I pull these mobs when they spawn?". If you're not in the room but clearing it that's not really maintaining presence imo, you can sit in crypt and claim emp because you can clear that far but you really aren't there its not the camp you are claiming and if a group moves in you just lost that little bonus.

If one named camp isn't enough for you, not aimed at anyone in particular, than I suggest you alter your play times

I don't think it is unreasonable that a King group park at the Lower Zone Out. This would be a lot safer and it is pretty close to King.

Based on what you are saying you believe Crypt should be 6 seperate camps then?

Asher