Offhand Delay...

[mimixownzall]

I've done some searching but can't see anything concrete about how the offhand delay works on this server.

I was originally told that on this server your offhand swings independantly of your mainhand.

Then today I get told that your offhand goes off of your mainhand delay.

Can someone tell me for sure what the truth is?

Thanks.

[baalzy]

It's independent on this server, and it was on live too. It was just a common misconception that it was tied to your main hand.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=119

Also answered (albiet briefly) in the FAQ thread:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1002

Another thread about dual wield delay here:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7915&highlight=dual+wield+delay

Everytime your off-hand delay recycles, a DW check is made. If successful, you swing, if not, you don't swing and wait until the next time your delay recycles.

Almost every question you can possibly think of has been asked on these boards. Try the search function :).

[Bones]

nvm, was answered above.

[Dantes]

So when why does anybody give a shit about the Moss Covered Twig or the Barbed Scale Whip here if main-hand delay has nothing to do with offhand delay?

[Kender]

So when why does anybody give a shit about the Moss Covered Twig or the Barbed Scale Whip here if main-hand delay has nothing to do with offhand delay?

because swinging a speed 10 weapon at high level with damage bonuses per swing from the main hand is godly. not so much in the secondary when there are no damage bonuses

[Supaskillz]

Off hand is absolutely independent. MCT and whip are great b/c your primary weapon receives a static dmg bonus independent of the weapons dmg/dly, which makes low dly weapons have an inherent advantage. For this reason jace mace is superior to say CSS in your main hand as well.

[mimixownzall]

So, dual wielding jade maces as a monk isn't such a bad thing, correct?

[Hasbinbad]

Test dual wield function for yourself:
use a dual wielding class
mainhand a non-weapon (e.g. fire beetle eye)
offhand a weapon
autoattack a mob
marvel as your offhand swings without your mainhand ever swinging
TY to reiker for this test

Also, moss covered twig is shit on this server; delay is capped at 9 (haste barely effects a MCT) and damage bonuses do not function the same way here that they did on kunark live, so you still hit for almost nothing. GG to anyone who has bought a MCT on this server.

[Kassel]

Holding stats constant, all that matters is ratio.

Offhand is pure ratio listed on the weapon !
Main hand is similar but you need to add the damage bonus into the equation.
so a jade mace at 9/18 is 20/18 at lvl 60. which is a 1.111r ratio.
MCT is 3/10 MH and 14/10 with the dmg bonus or a 1.4 ratio.
THe lower delay the weapon has, the beter the ratio will be when you include the static damage bonus on the main hand.

[Rejuvenation]

It is much more accurate to factor in damage bonus as .5 actual weapon damage.

Older formulas were approximated by Max Swing = 2*weapon damage+ dmg bonus.

When isolating only max hits, (maximizing modal damage, since max hits are the most common) each 2 points of dmg bonus is equivalent to 1 additional point of true damage.

Your calculations of MCT and JM ratios are way too high.

MCT at level 60 (11 damage bonus) is more closely modeled as 8.5/10 unhasted, or a ratio of .85

Jade Mace at 60 is 14.5/18, or .8055

One thing to consider is truncation after haste. Weapons with larger delays will benefit from haste via damage bonus calculations more than a weapon with lower delay, because it requires a higher percentage haste to reduce delay by a single point when the weapon's base delay is already low.

MCT with Visions of Grandeur (58% spell haste) and an FBSS equipped (21% worn haste) assuming no minimum haste cap now has a delay of 5.58. The new ratio now would be 1.5215.

Jade Mace with 58% + 21% haste: New Delay: 10.056 New Ratio: 1.4419

I'm not positive how the client factors in non-integer values as delays, I wouldn't be surprised if they are rounded up to the next highest integer value, which would slightly change the estimated hasted ratios.

All of this being said, melee damage does not match up consistently to the 2*weapdmg +dmg bonus model I used on this server. Honestly I believe that ratio has a stronger influence on total DPS rather than low delay and dmg bonus, but I haven't had the chance to parse substantially and find a newer equation.

[Aadill]

Test dual wield function for yourself:
use a dual wielding class
mainhand a non-weapon (e.g. fire beetle eye)
offhand a weapon
autoattack a mob
marvel as your offhand swings without your mainhand ever swinging
TY to reiker for this test

Also, moss covered twig is shit on this server; delay is capped at 9 (haste barely effects a MCT) and damage bonuses do not function the same way here that they did on kunark live, so you still hit for almost nothing. GG to anyone who has bought a MCT on this server.

And yet people still ask me why I don't use the efreeti standard o.O

[Kika Maslyaka]

Holding stats constant, all that matters is ratio.

Offhand is pure ratio listed on the weapon !
Main hand is similar but you need to add the damage bonus into the equation.
so a jade mace at 9/18 is 20/18 at lvl 60. which is a 1.111r ratio.
MCT is 3/10 MH and 14/10 with the dmg bonus or a 1.4 ratio.
THe lower delay the weapon has, the beter the ratio will be when you include the static damage bonus on the main hand.

damage bonus is not added to the weapon base, and is not part of the dmg ratio
its added ON TOP of the hit produced by the base*N, where N is your level/skill/atk modifier

its indeed much more significant increase in total dps for weapon which naturally low base damage, like MCT, but its not calculated this way

for example:
lets say that at some arbitrary level X, your total modifier is *5

This makes Jade Mace to hit for 9*5=45 dmg + the current dmg bonus
Same way, it makes MCT to hit for 3*5=15 dmg + the same dmg bonus

however since JM is naturally much better ratio than MTC , with *M in mind, it will heavily outweigh any +Dmg Bonus in the end.
Now when Haste is taken into account - JM can potentially reduce its delay by half, while MTC won't get much better

[Dantes]

See this whole time I thought the obsession with the twig was that your offhand was somehow related to your main hand in it's chance to swing. Which would mean having a Moss Covered Twig + a Wurmslayer would be uber deadly. But I suppose this is a common misconception because I've heard this a lot.

Sounds like the MCT is a POS on this server. Funny to see people wiping their asses with 30k plat and flushing it down the toilet.

[Treats]

Also, moss covered twig is shit on this server; delay is capped at 9 (haste barely effects a MCT) and damage bonuses do not function the same way here that they did on kunark live, so you still hit for almost nothing. GG to anyone who has bought a MCT on this server.

The reason why it's not very good on this server is because there is no "magic number" here in between min and max hit. 30-40% of all hits are for maximum damage.

Using a Moss Covered Twig in main hand with 250 offense and 150 strength your minimum hit would be 4 and your maximum would be 23 at level 60. Jade Mace in main hand with the same offense and strength would have a minimum hit of 10 and a maximum hit of 47. The range on MCT is just too small without a "magic number" for it to be effective.

Made a post here about the "Magic Number":

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34925&highlight=melee+damage