How Did Old School Bards Do It?

[dtjp1999]

I played a bard on live after Luclin, and Blue after Kunark, so I’ve never had the true “classic” experience with one. Thus I wanted to start one on Green, but have learned about some classic limitations that exist there that don’t on Blue (e.g., no cycle targeting, 6 slots per hotbar).

I’m old and my hands show it. I actually play with a programmable controller that allows me to avoid much of the repetitive key stroking that otherwise be necessary, but with classics limitations I’m not sure even that will work.

So, my question basically is how did old school bards do it? If it’s just not possible to be effective without constant mouse clicking, hot bar swapping, plus twisting song, then it seems I must give up on the class I love and settle on something far less demanding.

[ChooChoo Train]

Its not bad once your used to it, I have song 1-6 on bar, 7-8 are those respective songs, you can target nearest and just move to get close, you can tab between last two targets. If doing work is something you’re not wanting to do and you want to play to maximum potential, I’d suggest another class. Shift+# switches to another setup for say charming or fear kiting or pulling etc.

[ldgo86]

I miss Duxa so much

[Gustoo]

In old school, bards played 1 song at a time as intended.

[Bigsham]

Admits to software twisting in his own thread

[Seetherrr]

Bards are really the only class in EQ that requires "mechanical skill" and I don't recommend playing one without understanding what they are getting themselves into and being able to perform those actions or accepting that you aren't going to play anywhere near optimally otherwise.

[xalg]

i started a related thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357413) a few days back. there are a number of people who use programmable devices to reduce the strain on their hands but the server rules say you'll be permanently banned if you're caught using them. i haven't rolled a bard on green but i've thought about how i might set things up if i did. for the hotbar, you either have to split your /stopsong macros across multiple pages and swap between them or double tap each song as you twist. people are divided on which is better. for keybinds, you either bind your songs near wasd, on the numpad, or on the 12 buttons of an mmo mouse. i think most people bind near wasd but between twisting, double tapping, instrument swapping, using wasd to chain pull, hitting inc, and possibly also commanding pets, it really isn't good for you. using the numpad or an mmo mouse is probably better for you (depending how you use them) but not ideal.

[gnomishfirework]

I think multiple hot bars is the wya to go. 3-4 should do ya. Easy to swap between if you need to but shouldn’t really be an issue.

[FatMice]

Bards are really the only class in EQ that requires "mechanical skill"

feeling the burn.

[Keebz]

I didn't bard til kunark, but twisting was a thing by then. I regularly twisted using the double tap method. I don't remember the hot bar being super limiting back then, but our expectations were a lot lower. I may have just been using the spell gem hotkeys themselves.

There were a few eq bard sites (eq diva comes to mind) that had good tutorials and articles. If you can find them on the internet archive it may give you some ideas.

[Dolalin]

Twisting was planned from the very beginning. It was integral to the bard class from launch. There are posts about this from the eqbards mailing list in early 1999.

People would generally just twist 2-3 songs and only play one if things got hectic. The idea that you constantly need to twist 4 songs to be an acceptable bard is a powergamer myth.

A bard singing regen song with a lute is giving his entire group fungi tunics.

[Jimjam]

In low level, chilled groups I have a button that will sing 2 songs and press that every 10 seconds while I maybe assist tank.

I’m not going to feel bad about not twisting 4 songs and instrument swapping if the melee aren’t battle bandaging, the casters aren’t casting between med ticks, the pullers aren’t keeping a mob in camp at all times, the dps isn’t always maxed, etc.

It simply isn’t reasonable to expect players to sprint a marathon.

[dtjp1999]

Admits to software twisting in his own thread

I never said I use it to automate twisting. I still have to press a button to play each song. It just puts those, along with most other functions, in a more compact and streamlined layout that makes doing them all together much more accessible for someone like me.

I think the real deal-breaker is the lack of cycle targeting. Having to constantly use the mouse and/or re-position to get targets is going to be a pain (literally). I get that it's not classic and can accept that and move on. Preserving difficulty often means limiting accessibility. It's not like this is some government office where "equal opportunity" rules apply. Besides, there's only what, 13 other classes to play? :rolleyes:

[dtjp1999]

In low level, chilled groups I have a button that will sing 2 songs and press that every 10 seconds while I maybe assist tank.

I’m not going to feel bad about not twisting 4 songs and instrument swapping if the melee aren’t battle bandaging, the casters aren’t casting between med ticks, the pullers aren’t keeping a mob in camp at all times, the dps isn’t always maxed, etc.

It simply isn’t reasonable to expect players to sprint a marathon.

Well, based on this and the post before it, I think my experiences definitely put me in an "overperformance" mindset vis-a-vis what was done in classic. Now it seems the question is will I be able to lower both my expectations and pace of play, and still be happy with it? Guess I'll just have to try and see...

[Seetherrr]

Well, based on this and the post before it, I think my experiences definitely put me in an "overperformance" mindset vis-a-vis what was done in classic. Now it seems the question is will I be able to lower both my expectations and pace of play, and still be happy with it? Guess I'll just have to try and see...

I think this person is way off base and his comment is an absolute joke. Combat bandaging? Bandages are useless compared to the damage output that a) a player could be putting out and b) the damage output of mobs. Smart players ARE casting between med ticks. A bard playing just 1 or 2 songs is one that would never get invited to another group of mine. There is already a dislike for many bards due to their experience penalty and essentially being "budget" enchanters. Also many bards on this server have a tendency to go afk in groups with a single song up which has hurt further hurt the reputation of bards. Just because one person wants to justify their laziness doesn't mean that's how the class should be played.

As I stated previously, bards are the only class in the game that somewhat requires "mechanical skill" and choosing to play a bard means you are going to have to work harder than others to play the game at an effective level. It might not be fair but that's how it is and if you can't or are unwilling to twist songs then you probably shouldn't be playing a bard.

[Guesty07]

Dont worry about it. Play at your own pace, do whatever feels comfortable to you. If that's just playing two songs during combat so be it and if somebody doesn't want to invite you to their future groups thats their call, but you'd have a place at my camp fire.

[Jimjam]

I think this person is way off base and his comment is an absolute joke. Combat bandaging? Bandages are useless compared to the damage output that a) a player could be putting out and b) the damage output of mobs. Smart players ARE casting between med ticks. A bard playing just 1 or 2 songs is one that would never get invited to another group of mine. There is already a dislike for many bards due to their experience penalty and essentially being "budget" enchanters. Also many bards on this server have a tendency to go afk in groups with a single song up which has hurt further hurt the reputation of bards. Just because one person wants to justify their laziness doesn't mean that's how the class should be played.

As I stated previously, bards are the only class in the game that somewhat requires "mechanical skill" and choosing to play a bard means you are going to have to work harder than others to play the game at an effective level. It might not be fair but that's how it is and if you can't or are unwilling to twist songs then you probably shouldn't be playing a bard.

Okay, apparently you aren't aware but it is possible to bandage and fight at the same time.

At lower level, there is a real diminished return in what the group gets from songs after the second one, and the cost of constantly twisting 4 songs and switching instruments does not pay off for the benefit. It's better to play at a slower but more maintainable pace.

At higher level, bards do have a lot more useful and powerful songs, and I'd hope a bard was spinning at least 3 together most of the time, and certainly during crunch moments. OP: It's helpful to have hotkeys that /stop | /cast # on the same macro to half button presses. I'm sure you could put two songs on each button if you really wanted, but of course that would reduce flexibility.

You may claim smart players catch med ticks, and this is sometimes true, but I can tell you now, my own observations, is most people don't catch med ticks 100% of the time. Even if they do, they aren't standing to throw in a couple of melee swings between ticks.

This is my point - there is an expectation among players that bards cycle 4 songs, switching instruments, and yet no other class is expected to play at 100% 100% of the time, despite all the other class being, as you say, less involved.

[Seetherrr]

Okay, apparently you aren't aware but it is possible to bandage and fight at the same time.

You may claim smart players catch med ticks, and this is sometimes true, but I can tell you now, my own observations, is most people don't catch med ticks 100% of the time. Even if they do, they aren't standing to throw in a couple of melee swings between ticks.

This is my point - there is an expectation among players that bards cycle 4 songs, switching instruments, and yet no other class is expected to play at 100% 100% of the time, despite all the other class being, as you say, less involved.

This is really ridiculous. Since you seem to be talking low levels, most players won't have enough bind wound skill to make any meaningful difference and if the mob moves causing the person to bind wound to move then you miss out.

The melee while medding is also ridiculous too because it means you are sitting very close to the mob which means you are more likely to take a hit while sitting and taking 1 round while sitting is worse than even several melee swings. It also raises the chance that you do miss a med tick which is far far worse than the extra damage you could possibly get in as a priest or caster trying to melee

[Jimjam]

The exact point is it is ridiculous and it is ridiculous to expect similar from a bard.

[ChooChoo Train]

I pull with stalking probes while I twist 4 songs get off deez nuts.

[Seetherrr]

The exact point is it is ridiculous and it is ridiculous to expect similar from a bard.

The difference is other classes are at 90% to 99% effectiveness without doing that stuff. A bard is at like 50% to 75% effectiveness. Which gets back to the point I was making originally, Bards are not for everyone and require a level of play that is far beyond the requirements of other classes to perform at a level that doesn't make them the worse class to have in a group.

[kaizersoze]

Bards are pretty easy as long as you are paying attention. Keeping 4-5 songs up at once is pretty chill.

[Jimjam]

The difference is other classes are at 90% to 99% effectiveness without doing that stuff. A bard is at like 50% to 75% effectiveness. Which gets back to the point I was making originally, Bards are not for everyone and require a level of play that is far beyond the requirements of other classes to perform at a level that doesn't make them the worse class to have in a group.

I don't know about that, battle bandaging is basically an extra fungi tunic at high level.

Likewise, playing 2-3 songs and then ramping up the intensity at shit/fan moments is a lot more than 50% effectiveness.

Clearly we disagree on this point, feel free to blacklist all bards that don't spin 4/5 songs while switching instruments and pulling with eyes.

I'm happy to play with people who only go at 50% potential; it's a binge game and people often play hours at a time. It's best not to burn out so you have the focus to spare when it counts.

[ChooChoo Train]

Hymn, all of psalms(mystic/cooling for additional hp or DS), snare/slow, haste, charm, mez, lull, fear, mana can all be used at maximum potential with a lute equipped.

Selos/resists/debuffs/dots/lull/fear/charm/mana/snare/slow all work with a drum.

Legit in most situations you aren’t swapping instruments in a group your doing either a lute or drum package of songs. If anything you might do 3 drum songs then swap lute in for hymn pulse.

What the hell are you people doing swapping instruments every song lol?

[Jimjam]

Hymn, all of psalms(mystic/cooling for additional hp or DS), snare/slow, haste, charm, mez, lull, fear, mana can all be used at maximum potential with a lute equipped.

When I mention there are diminished returns on the benefits of songs after the first two, I'm not talking about having their best instrument modifier (though you make a good point on that later in your post)… I'm sure as an experience bard you know what I mean, that when you are singing a bunch of buffs on the group, a couple of them will have a much greater impact (say adding a fungi to each group member or pumping up mana) compared to adding a couple of extra AC or Str to a melee.

As such, if you are singing the two most effective songs out of the four, although you are only singing 50% of the songs, you will be performing at much greater than 50%
efficiency. Some songs are more equal than others!

I hope I'm being clear; I'm not condoning lazy play, I'm just trying to be realistic about the diminished return on invested work, and questioning the convention that an involved class, infamous for causing physical an mental stress, should be played at over 90% for several hours at a time.

[dtjp1999]

Twisting isn’t really the problem. It’s doing that plus everything else (chain pulling, cc, instrument swapping, melee), with classics additional limitations, that seems problematic. Again I wasn’t around for just the original game on Blue, but from what I’ve seen in other posts it seems like some of these limitations are being applied for the first time with Green.

[DMN]

Old school bards pretty much just played the manasong and fapped as far as I recall.

[ChooChoo Train]

Twisting isn’t really the problem. It’s doing that plus everything else (chain pulling, cc, instrument swapping, melee), with classics additional limitations, that seems problematic. Again I wasn’t around for just the original game on Blue, but from what I’ve seen in other posts it seems like some of these limitations are being applied for the first time with Green.

Bard meleeing in classic... /shows door

[Ataria]

I always double tapped, and while I aimed to have 4 songs up, between skips and such 3 were most often ended up being the norm for me. What is crazy, is that I always remember tab targeting. No idea why! I remember CCing in KC with mad pulls and having no problems. But that was Kunark. But who knows maybe I just moved around to mez the next target before and after Kunark. I started in 99, and stopped playing right around when AAs came out.

Along with double tapping, I remember swapping instruments sometimes, like lute for heal song when we were low on heals with melee weapons. I do not recall hotbars being limiting. Also I know at that time there were no melody macros, it was all by hand. I remember always having either an instrument or a weapon on my cursor, and swapping out as needed or swapping drum with lute etc. The one thing I didn't like, is people would get genuinely mad with me for not returning tells and chatting. I would respond with a quick "twisting!" But wow, how they would really get offended by this! lol

I would have loved to play a bard here, but I loathe pulling (dungeons and castles), and it seems here bards are pullers. I just have no sense of direction, and maybe in beastly groups that would be optimal bringing 500 mobs as I played whackamole with turns and tunnels finding my way back, but more often may be definitive death haha.

[ClephNote]

Double click songs, pull and park for group, lute and regen for downtime.

Always have Regen/mana up, haste, slow/snare, sometimes DS. Typically always had Mez or Charm on bar, along with Selos, the DD song for pulling, Lull and 3 twisting songs.

The big difference I noticed when I started Blue, I looked down on instrument only bards pretty hard; I did some instrument swapping, but I was mostly sub-optimally meleeing :D

Also, falling asleep in xp group with mana song on was a good way to get plvled.

[Albane]

You put your songs on different pages.

Twisting 3 buffs songs if that is your job in a group is expected.

Twisting 4 offensiveor CC songs if that is your job.

If you are solo, dot, dot, dot, speed/snare.

If you are charming, Charm, / pet attack, dot, dot, dot.

[Jibartik]

They did it like this:

https://i.imgur.com/DtYCNu8.jpg

https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

[Jimjam]

You know, we don't have enough potential sand giant spawns on p1999.

I don't think I ever saw 6 up at a time, even on early green where presumably the turn over of the low level mobs would have forced them all out.

[Jibartik]

There’s like 2 on p99 lol

[ChooChoo Train]

Old school bards could also charm kite which was like stupid easy and awesome. Grab 15 or so mobs charm one send it at pack they all beat on it. Grab another. Rinse repeat. Finish them all off. You could kill so fast it was stupid like this.

[Jimjam]

I do feel like that is one of the main reasons we didn't see aoe barding on live. Charm kite was way better.

[Old_PVP]

You know, we don't have enough potential sand giant spawns on p1999.

I don't think I ever saw 6 up at a time, even on early green where presumably the turn over of the low level mobs would have forced them all out.

I've seen quite a few up before...in fact i didn't know so many could spawn in Oasis there were so many. This was on Red server after a server reset.

[Muggens]

I've seen quite a few up before...in fact i didn't know so many could spawn in Oasis there were so many. This was on Red server after a server reset.

4 sand giants up at the same time are the most ive seen on here so far i can remember

[Menenolly]

I played as a bard for the first few years and I was twisting non stop unless I was purely running somewhere or talking to someone. I ended up with a bad case of carpal tunnel and I was forced to give up bardic life and moved on to the beastlord class. Some people get carpal and some are seemly immune to it and can play a bard for a couple decades. I would suggest taking breaks a lot and be lazy with the songs in groups or when solo don't chant kite or do the mass kite. Go with charming. Please EQ overlords, add /melody.

[Natewest1987]

You know, we don't have enough potential sand giant spawns on p1999.

I don't think I ever saw 6 up at a time, even on early green where presumably the turn over of the low level mobs would have forced them all out.

Lol this absolutely happened in early stages of teal

[DMN]

I've seen at least 8 SGs on a server reset back in the day. I was rounding them up to quad 4 of them on my druid. If someone is killing Sgs with any regularity though it was rare to see more than 3-4 at any given time. Usually there are only 1-2 up But if you start killing all the pathing, non croc trash mobs in oasis and don''t kill any SGs that spawn and I'm sure you can get even higher than 8.