Does delay/attack speed affect aggro retention?

[Kaa]

Good Afternoon,

Noob question here, it has been some years since I read the Steel Warrior forums (years/decades) and I've forgotten the answer to this one. Does delay/attack speed affect aggro retention? If I have a 2hs with higher dps or two one handed weapons with less aggregate dps but they swing more frequently, should I go with the dual wield to get/keep aggro or is it neutral with respect to the slower 2hs?

Thanks -- sorry for the noob question

[Wallicker]

There is a mainhand dmg bonus depending on level which factors into the DPS equation, basically excluding procs whichever weapon setup does the most potential DPS will hold aggro. If you give us your level and weapons in mind we can let you know which setup is best for aggro.

[Penish]

More attacks = More hate (without procs) with favorable weopons, the proc effect outweighs whatever you may be doing dps wise (to a certain extent). Granted they keep changing all the proc formulas into a real bastard child. So who knows now, my knowledge of p99 mechanics is old.

Oh yeah 2 handers are dog shit aggro. Always will be on p99. (Unless they change that too)

[Wallicker]

More attacks = More hate (without procs) with favorable weopons, the proc effect outweighs whatever you may be doing dps wise (to a certain extent). Granted they keep changing all the proc formulas into a real bastard child. So who knows now, my knowledge of p99 mechanics is old.

Oh yeah 2 handers are dog shit aggro. Always will be on p99. (Unless they change that too)

Do not listen to this. White damage aggro will be better for whichever has a Better ratio calculating (mh+dmg bonus) + OH vs 2h+dmg bonus. A very good 2her will out aggro two decent 1hers etc. Really would need your lvl and weapons, someone around here has the exact formula.

[Baler]

isn't this timeline related?

People aren't answering the question. They're telling OP about something unrelated to the question.

I could swear there was a change ?post? velious that caused 2h's to generate more agro than they did prior. Someone please correct me if i'm wrong.
Or was it the High Delay damage bonus? uhh, was that at the end of velious alongside hybrid buff?

Wallicker kind of touches on this subject...

[Trazic]

When comparing two different weapon setups neither of which have a proc the one that does more dps will do more threat regardless of speeds involved.

There was an old myth back on eqlive that faster weapons were better threat than slower ones even when they did less dps (taking into account damage bonus and everything) but it was false.

For what it is worth reaver held aggro about as well as horn of hsagra / blade of carnage combo on a 30 war. Of course no actual testing was done and it was only my subjective experience so take it with a grain of salt.

[Keebz]

Higher dps will win out, but if someone spikes above you in hate briefly, you will have to wait longer before you swing again and regain aggro. Also if the mob bounces around the group, missed swings (out of range—not missed) will represent more lost hate than with faster weapons. It stands to reason, DPS being equal, faster is probably easier to maintain aggro with.

I don't know how crits/crips factor into things though. Do you get extra hate for crits? If not I could see a slow 2h technically doing more dps in a parse, but having worse hate properties.

[Jimjam]

From what I recall from thesteelwarrior forum hate was 2dmg+damage bonus per swing regardless of if you hit, miss, crit,crip, or whatever. I came across this info post classic tho.

[fastboy21]

At low lvl it is going to depend on the actual weapon options you have available.

The combinations are numerous enough that you probably should just parse your own data and find out what has the highest white damage, and experiment with different combinations in different situations (high dps grp member, high mr mobs, etc.) for what you can consistently hold aggro with best.

In general, all other things being equal (procs, level, mob, etc.) the faster swings will probably be better to hold aggro...but it depends on the actual weapons.

[kaev]

From what I recall from thesteelwarrior forum hate was 2dmg+damage bonus per swing regardless of if you hit, miss, crit,crip, or whatever. I came across this info post classic tho.

It is, none-the-less correct info. iirc the 2h threat malus is 30%, i.e. threat from 2handers is 0.7*(2*dmg+bonus).

[Kaa]

Thanks for all the answers. What is 'white damage' (damage without taking procs into account?)? I'm presently considering weapons which don't proc for the record.

[kaev]

White damage is regular melee damage. When talking about agro tho (i.e. "white damage agro/threat") the reference is to modal damage (2x base weapon damage + damage bonus).
Damage bonus applies to mainhand weapon at L28+ for all melee/hybrid classes except Bard (L-25 / 3, drop fractions*).

*I have not played on blue for nearly a year now, they may have the revised 2h damage bonusses in play there now, I dunno.

[Kaa]

It is, none-the-less correct info. iirc the 2h threat malus is 30%, i.e. threat from 2handers is 0.7*(2*dmg+bonus).

So threat from 2 handers is less than from 1 handers?

What would be better for holding aggro, the Warrior Epic 1hs dual wield combo or the Warrior Epic 2hs? The latter has higher dps, both have aggro procs. Just as an example. If that's a good example.

Also, if attack speed/delay doesn't affect aggro why was the moss covered twig nerfed and made offhand only? The reason I heard given (some time after the fact) was because a 3/17 mainhand kept aggro too easily.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So threat from 2 handers is less than from 1 handers?

What would be better for holding aggro, the Warrior Epic 1hs dual wield combo or the Warrior Epic 2hs? The latter has higher dps, both have aggro procs. Just as an example. If that's a good example.

Also, if attack speed/delay doesn't affect aggro why was the moss covered twig nerfed and made offhand only? The reason I heard given (some time after the fact) was because a 3/17 mainhand kept aggro too easily.

Warriors typically use two one hand weapons WITH agro procs. Two procs means more agro procs than the 2h version of epic. This is a great wombo combo for agro:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Blade_of_Strategy
https://wiki.project1999.com/Trident_of_the_Deep_Sea

You got a 500 agro proc from epic, and a slow proc from Trident. Trident proc is also a cold spell, rather than a magic spell. This means the slow can land on mobs that are magic immune.

[kaev]

So threat from 2 handers is less than from 1 handers?

What would be better for holding aggro, the Warrior Epic 1hs dual wield combo or the Warrior Epic 2hs? The latter has higher dps, both have aggro procs. Just as an example. If that's a good example.

Also, if attack speed/delay doesn't affect aggro why was the moss covered twig nerfed and made offhand only? The reason I heard given (some time after the fact) was because a 3/17 mainhand kept aggro too easily.

A 3/10 (not 3/17) mainhand weapon in the hands of a L58 is gonna have modal damage ratio of 17/10 (1.70), and modal damage is what agro is based on. Compared to a Jade Mace at 9/18 which gives 29/18 (1.61) modal at 58+ it's better but not actually amazing, so I don't think agro is why Verant panicked over the twig. More likely that being so fast it was best dps vs. very high AC mobs where you get lots of hits for less than the modal damage and so the damage bonus matters more (esp in hands of a Monk who's hitting the raid boss from behind and so avoiding dodge/parry/riposte).

[Kaa]

It is, none-the-less correct info. iirc the 2h threat malus is 30%, i.e. threat from 2handers is 0.7*(2*dmg+bonus).

I hope I'm not keeping this thread going unduly long, but just to be clear, this means that 2 handers suffer from a penalty here relative to one handers? I.e. threat from one handers is 1.0*(2*dmg+bonus)?

If the formulas you've posted here are correct then that gives me a simple calculation to do to figure out which weapons to use -- thanks. (Though I suppose you'd need the formula for offhand swing chance too to be complete)

How did you compute the modal damage ratio?

[Videri]

Let’s not forget that aggro per swing is the same regardless of how much damage it hits for, even a miss.

[Kaa]

So do 2 handers suffer an aggro penalty or not?

For the record, I'm comparing a Silvery Two-handed Axe vs. Bladed Thulian Claws/Cold Iron Morning Star as my setup.

[fastboy21]

Part of the confusion in this thread is that there are literally newbie lvl 20s on green getting advice from lvl60 vets with BiS gear on blue.

Holding aggro on green as a warrior is a very different situation than holding aggro on blue end game geared. Reliance on "white damage" is important...but there is no combination of weps in the game in vanilla that will cause enough "white damage" for you to hold aggro consistently off an even poorly geared DPS in any random PUG.

If you play a warrior on green you have severely limited options...the best one before lvl 30ish is prob just to ask the semi-afk player in your PUG to just root the friggin mob for you.

[kaev]

If you play a warrior on green you have severely limited options...the best one before lvl 30ish is prob just to ask the semi-afk player in your PUG to just root the friggin mob for you.

Doesn't even have to be the afk dude. Ranger tanking in vanilla is decent until the end, but in LGuk & SolB best use of Ranger mana is rooting mob on the warrior to make the rogue do more dps and the cleric not be going oom all the time. Any root is a warrior's bestest friend.

[fastboy21]

Doesn't even have to be the afk dude. Ranger tanking in vanilla is decent until the end, but in LGuk & SolB best use of Ranger mana is rooting mob on the warrior to make the rogue do more dps and the cleric not be going oom all the time. Any root is a warrior's bestest friend.

Exactly...which is why the question in this thread (about using a 2h silvery axe vs. Bladed Thulian Claws/Cold Steel Morning star) is moot. The end game discussion is totally removed from the practical question from the OP.

Both of those setups will fail consistently in a mediocre vanilla group. You'd be incomparably better off just asking (politely/diplomatically) for someone to root the mobs.

[Kaa]

Alright, so there's no way to hold aggro as a pre-Planar warrior on Green off DPS.

I have another question, if you'd prefer I start a new thread please let me know. Does proximity to the mob affect aggro? I've never heard it does but some in groups suggest it does. I.e. if the warrior is the closest (in terms of physical proximity) to the mob does this mean more aggro than if further away? I understand that when a mob is rooted it immediately uses its first attack afterward on the nearest player character, but otherwise does proximity to the mob affect aggro?

Thanks.

[fastboy21]

Alright, so there's no way to hold aggro as a pre-Planar warrior on Green off DPS.


Thanks.

There is a way, but the options are few with weapons. You need a proc with some aggro on it (pgt, obsidian shard...later ssoy, kisch der whatever from paw, etc.)...haste items will help you a bit also.

Typical strats:
1. Ask for roots (or use a treant staff...yuck)
2. Ask DPSers to hold off until a certain percent before nuking, etc.
3. Timing your swing, taunt, and grps DPS (ideally, you want your taunt to land right BEFORE your next attack and right AFTER someone does the big DPS move like slow, nuke, BS, etc.) If you time it right and you don't have 3 DPSs in your grp you can usually get a full round ahead of them until you miss a few times. Many warriors jam their taunt key the instant the mob turns around...but if you don't have something backing it up you'll just lose aggro again when the rogue drops his next BS even if your taunt succeeded.
4. Sometimes if I'm pulling on my green warrior I will do a few rounds of damage to the mob before bringing it back to grp, just to help the aggro. Body pulling is pretty much a guarentee that you will lose aggro.

The root thing is a pita...but it is honestly by far the most mana efficient way for a war to hold aggro by far. If I'm on my cleric I'd rather spend 30 mana on a root so that all damage gets pushed to the same warrior then have to keep healing a rogue that thinks he is doing a good job by running me oom every mob)

[fastboy21]

I have another question, if you'd prefer I start a new thread please let me know. Does proximity to the mob affect aggro? I've never heard it does but some in groups suggest it does. I.e. if the warrior is the closest (in terms of physical proximity) to the mob does this mean more aggro than if further away? I understand that when a mob is rooted it immediately uses its first attack afterward on the nearest player character, but otherwise does proximity to the mob affect aggro?

Thanks.

Not really...when mob is rooted it always attacks the nearest person regardless of the hate list like you said otherwise I don't think this is real issue. Being farther away might give you a second to regain aggro before the mob has time to turn, run and attack the shaman who just slowed him...but thats not exactly what you meant I think.

Sitting does matter (some old school warrs on live used to actually sit to pong the mob back to them --- which can actually work, but its a dumb strat 99% of the time imo).

[Snaggles]

As a rogue on live I always kept max distance. I’m not sure if it actually decreases aggro. What it does do is keep the mob from smearing you when someone is rooting and not explaining the strategy to the team.

So yea, max melee distance if dps. Close melee distance if tank. If caster dps not close but not too far to cause ping-pong chasing all over the zone.

[kaev]

As a rogue on live I always kept max distance. I’m not sure if it actually decreases aggro. What it does do is keep the mob from smearing you when someone is rooting and not explaining the strategy to the team.

So yea, max melee distance if dps. Close melee distance if tank. If caster dps not close but not too far to cause ping-pong chasing all over the zone.

On p99 proximity within the mob's melee range matters with root and blind, but seems to matter not at all otherwise. Proximity outside melee range does seem to affect how likely the mob is to take after a caster on its hate list when the caster sits (possibly what matters is whether you are close enough that the mob would agro you if kos and not already engaged, not 100% sure.)

My (possibly faulty) recollection is that proximity within the mob's melee range mattered on live. Everybody except the tank needed to be at max melee distance regardless of root. The effect was not large but it seemed that if your cumulative threat was only a little higher than the tank's the tank could hold agro by standing on top of the mob if you were standing back. Maybe. It's been a lot of years and there is no way to test it now. :shrug:

[Kirdan]

Alright, so there's no way to hold aggro as a pre-Planar warrior on Green off DPS.

Sure there is, pick monks for dps. Unlike rogues at this point, monks can shed their agro easily.