Soulbinders?

[cfriedel123]

Are there soulbinders on this server? I have run in FP and Rivervale now only to find that there is no soulbinder. In the case of Rivervale, this kind of sucks as I am the only one normally in the city. Is there a problem with the soulbinders or is this normal?

[Nedala]

No soulbinders (not classic) and you always find people in any city from time to time, even in rivervale. Everytime i run trough rivervale i see seome people there.

[Fists]

soulbinders were not classic, you'll need to find someone to bind you, your playing at off hours, misty is generally pretty busy in the peak hours.

[cfriedel123]

I thought they were around by Velious. Guess not.

[Ledzepp02]

I thought they were around by Velious. Guess not.

Kunark was released March 25th on this server, Velious will be a while man. ;)

[gnomishfirework]

They weren't in velious, either.

[guineapig]

This is very easy to look up for yourself:

December 20, 2001

Soulbinders:
A new group has appeared in Norrath (and on Luclin as well). Rumor has it that these 'Soulbinders' have dedicated themselves to research on the power and essence of our inner being. Some call them fanatics, as they claim that knowledge of the spirit that dwells within will lead them to an understanding of the whole of existence. Citizens often treat them with the same respect and distance that they treat the Priests of Discord. However, these Soulbinders have dedicated themselves to public service, and for them that service falls along their lines of specialty...

The next time you find yourself far away from home, you might seek the services of a Soulbinder.

/ooc: We've added these "Soulbinder" NPCs to all cities that player characters can start in, as well as Shadowhaven and Iceclad at the request of players. It is our hope that these new NPCs will help players by reducing the time it takes to find a bind from another player character.


Short version: Luclin

[Deathrydar]

The funny thing is, it never took "long" to find a bind from another player. Even on this server it doesn't take long. A friend of mine started playing yesterday and started an Erudite. When he asked me "hey, where the heck is everybody" I told him to get on the boat to Qeynos.

Once he got there, I warned him to get bound to the area there. He said there was no one above level 6 in the zone. I told him to ask anyway. He didn't understand why, but all it took was one message in OOC and a level 4 sent him a tell informing him that he has his main in the area and would gladly log him on to give him a bind.

Long story short, soulbinders never really had any purpose, except to dumb the game down for people that didn't want to be social.

[Kika Maslyaka]

soulbinders was the smartest thing SOE ever added to the game.
I was so sick of casters getting it easy and being able to bind/gate almost anywhere, while I have to cry in /ooc for 45 min to get a freaken bind, so I can actualy go and play.

[Deathrydar]

soulbinders was the smartest thing SOE ever added to the game.
I was so sick of casters getting it easy and being able to bind/gate almost anywhere, while I have to cry in /ooc for 45 min to get a freaken bind, so I can actualy go and play.

Even with Soulbinders, you were not able to bind/gate anywhere.....

[Mcbard]

soulbinders was the smartest thing SOE ever added to the game.
I was so sick of casters getting it easy and being able to bind/gate almost anywhere, while I have to cry in /ooc for 45 min to get a freaken bind, so I can actualy go and play.

Ya, but when you die in most cases you still end up in a city, the caster can bind wherever they happen to be leveling at the time.

[Kika Maslyaka]

If this would up to me, I would remove Bind ability from casters... And Gate too :D
And make wiz/druid portals require a VERY expensive reagent to cast :D

[Aadill]

The anti-social aspect of soulbinders and PoK books were minor but still one reason I would always vote against them. It defeats the point of having class-specific spells no matter how useless they seem to some people.

[Kika Maslyaka]

there is a big difference between pok book - get anywhere under 30 sec
and not being able to play for hours and hours, cuase you cannot get a freaken Bind!

[Aadill]

I'm fairly certain you can still play without having your character bound to the closest city. Unless you want to be bound in Erudin there's a good chance that someone is around, anyway.

[Malrubius]

soulbinders was the smartest thing SOE ever added to the game.

No, short beer was.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I'm fairly certain you can still play without having your character bound to the closest city. Unless you want to be bound in Erudin there's a good chance that someone is around, anyway.

well consider is:
-state law says that you may only own a car if you are a member of church or an ocult group
-there is no public transportation of any sort

then you offer me a solution that - everyone else can either walk, or hitch a ride from a friendly priest...

Does that sound lame or what? :rolleyes:

[Aadill]

You're putting your convenience over class-specific benefits. If you're afraid to run far from "home" then your adventures will be short. That is sorta.. y'know.. the whole point of the game.

Soulbinders are fairly trivial and are a very small facet of the social interactions that take place in the game but at the same time were a specific exclusion by the devs to promote some sort of balance of classes across the population. As time progressed more people wanted the "casual" experience of not having to ask other people for things. This ain't that time.

Talk to the people around you to get things done as a group... it's an MMO. If you're not doing that then roll a class with a different set of capabilities that match what you consider appropriate for the level of convenience to which you wish to sate your gameplay needs.

[Kika Maslyaka]

its a wrong kind of balance

when warrior tanks, cleric heals, and wizard nukes - thats balance

when half of the classes cannot change their bind location wihout help of the other half - thats just stupid

its one kind of thing to be dependant on others to defeat an ancounter, its complitely different thing, when you don't have the same freedom of moving around like some of others (not talking about faction)

convient abilities should not be be balanced vs combat abilities

[stormlord]

The funny thing is, it never took "long" to find a bind from another player. Even on this server it doesn't take long. A friend of mine started playing yesterday and started an Erudite. When he asked me "hey, where the heck is everybody" I told him to get on the boat to Qeynos.

Once he got there, I warned him to get bound to the area there. He said there was no one above level 6 in the zone. I told him to ask anyway. He didn't understand why, but all it took was one message in OOC and a level 4 sent him a tell informing him that he has his main in the area and would gladly log him on to give him a bind.

Long story short, soulbinders never really had any purpose, except to dumb the game down for people that didn't want to be social.So needing to wait half an hour or more doing nothing except using /ooc is smart? I've seen players sit around waiting for a bind (doing nothing) and then they died because they decided to kill a few mobs while waiting and had to run all the way back. You can't really blame them for that. You CAN blame the game. Generally, this isn't a problem when there're lots of players, but this server has 50% or less of the population that was on live and it will only get worse as more content is added and the population is increasingly top heavy. It quickly becomes an issue of waiting (aka doing nothing) as opposed to just "/shout Need bind!" THAT is a problem.

I think the problem here is that you're putting the blame on soulblinders when it's squarely on the one dimensional travel system EQ has. I mean, the travel system is just too boring and deserves most of the blame. I would trade it any day of the year for an inclusive system that makes you think. So give everyone the ability to bind themselves, or something similar, but make the players think about how the travel system works and allow them to change it so it suits their particular needs. The problem with EQ's system is that: a) it's exclusive (only casters can bind and melees can't bind where casters can) b) it's boring (not much detail, too straightforward) c) it doesn't involve players (we're not really allowed to change how it works).

Not everything that happens over the years is dumbing down. Sometimes the system was broken to begin with. Sometimes we put the blame on the wrong target. WE can be dumb and dumber too.

Why did EQ, initially, base its travel system on population? If the population goes down then the travel system suffers. If it goes up, it changes the dynamics as well. Anytime a system is exclusive it's pitting itself against unintended consequences. EQ literally set itself up for failure OR substantial changes in the future. This is before you even consider how stupidly boring the system is; uninspired, a pile of poo.

Can we make dumb classes and expect dumb players to play them? If you make a boring class and players complain then hopefully you learn something. If it happens again, maybe you're just dumb.

So maybe the people who developed it were the source of the dumbness. The perceived dumbing down over the years started with them. Not with dumb players that wanted dumber games.

[falkun]

convient abilities should not be be balanced vs combat abilities

I had a post in one of the recent newbie forums about how recent MMO's "fixed" problems like this. Verant/Sony made the classes this way, from the roots of D&D, to ensure social interaction between players in and out of combat. Whether you view it as another chance to interact with others or as an inconvenience to your mobility, if you can't bind you will be forced to interact with other players to obtain a bind (yay socializing), and if you can bind, unless you're an asshole, you will offer more than your fair share of binds to those who cannot (altruism is also good).

Finally, you aren't required to bind anywhere, you could go through your whole leveling experience without dieing by being super careful. But knowing where your bound in relation to where you will leave your body will make you appreciate living through fights that much more (death having a real penalty is also a good thing).

TL : DR - Social interaction is good, in any way, shape or form. IMO, don't do anything to decrease it.

[Kika Maslyaka]

except original DnD wasn't a mmo
It was played in a close group session when your party was around you most of the time. And you didn't really needed to go and LOOK for a bind... Players certainly were not "logging into a game" at odd hours to play solo...

the social aspect should be based on fighting together, doing raids thats cannot be posibly be done wihout right class distribution, not looking for a bind for 45 min

[Kika Maslyaka]

Not everything that happens over the years is dumbing down. Sometimes the system was broken to begin with. Sometimes we put the blame on the wrong target. WE can be dumb and dumber too.

Can we make dumb classes and expect dumb players to play them?

+1 :cool:

[falkun]

except original DnD wasn't a mmo
It was played in a close group session when your party was around you most of the time. And you didn't really needed to go and LOOK for a bind... Players certainly were not "logging into a game" at odd hours to play solo...

So you are saying melees (non-binders) are logging in at odd hours to play solo? How many melee do you know that solo often/efficiently? The players that do engage in this activity know the risks they are taking, its not like its a new game.

You are providing a minority case to support a change that will affect the majority of the playerbase in a negative fashion.

[Kika Maslyaka]

fine i will give another exmaple:

there is a raid in progress to kill say Nagafen
all your casters sitting by his lair waiting for melees to arrive
All of your melees are some how bound in Oggok (say after recent fear raid)
And you don't have any druids or wizards.
So your melees get togther, run across feerrot, Inothule, south ro, oasis, north ro, zone in FP and start looking for a bind... For 15 min... for 30 min...for 45 min...
Eventualy the casters decide to send someone to FP to bind the melees...
And while you doing that another guild showed up, and killed Nagafen
Great raiding day.

[Kika Maslyaka]

So you are saying melees (non-binders) are logging in at odd hours to play solo? How many melee do you know that solo often/efficiently? The players that do engage in this activity know the risks they are taking, its not like its a new game.

You are providing a minority case to support a change that will affect the majority of the playerbase in a negative fashion.

oh yeah I am perfectly fine with taking risks and trying to solo as a melee.
Nothing wrong with that.
Not beeing able to travel between cities AT ALL wihout outside help is ridiculus

[falkun]

fine i will give another exmaple:

there is a raid in progress to kill say Nagafen
all your casters sitting by his lair waiting for melees to arrive
All of your melees are some how bound in Oggok (say after recent fear raid)
And you don't have any druids or wizards.
So your melees get togther, run across feerrot, Inothule, south ro, oasis, north ro, zone in FP and start looking for a bind... For 15 min... for 30 min...for 45 min...
Eventualy the casters decide to send someone to FP to bind the melees...
And while you doing that naother guild showed up, and killed Nagafen
Great raiding day.

The other guild was better organized. You are the idiot guild/raid leader that let all your casters sit around with their thumbs up their asses while your melees looked for binds. You want something to happen, make it happen. Send your casters to bind your melees. Or just have your melees not bind and don't wipe. If you are mobilizing first and you fail to get the raid target, then that's your fault, not the game's.

Again, your example is a minority case where your refusal to put forth effort or accept greater risk resulted in your loss.

oh yeah I am perfectly fine with taking risks and trying to solo as a melee.
Nothing wrong with that.
Not beeing able to travel between cities AT ALL wihout outside help is ridiculus

What is stopping you from traveling between cities? I fail to see how I cannot remain bound in Ak`anon while I run to Paineel. Do I die from being too far from my bind spot? Is there a 3-zone leash that I can't be further than my bind spot from?

[guineapig]

What it all comes down to is that this server is replicating Everquest 1999-2000 era. Everyone knows that when they create their first character.

There are many servers available that recreate a different Everquest experience. People that do not like the way Everquest was implemented in the beginning are encouraged to compare this server with one of the many other emulated servers available to choose from.

I'll tell you what though, many people that leave eventually come back here.

[RiffDaemon]

The other guild was better organized. You are the idiot guild/raid leader that let all your casters sit around with their thumbs up their asses while your melees looked for binds. You want something to happen, make it happen. Send your casters to bind your melees. Or just have your melees not bind and don't wipe. If you are mobilizing first and you fail to get the raid target, then that's your fault, not the game's.

Again, your example is a minority case where your refusal to put forth effort or accept greater risk resulted in your loss.

This. All of this. And then some

[quellren]

You sure like to point fingers.

I've played a ranger, bard and a warrior on this server to mid-levels and before that, I played a Troll Shaman who came to EC at lvl 3, and a gnome necro who came to EC at lvl 4. Everycharacter I've played on P99 has needed a bind at some point.
I never waited more than 5 minutes for a bind.

If you are waiting 45 minutes, you're doing it wrong. /ooc'ing passively is well, lazy.
I have received literally DOZENS of tells from players while sitting in EC at the market asking if they can donate a few plat for me to bind them in FP. I've always done it.
Hell, I once ran to Neriak to bind someone for 10p. I buffed and SoW'd them as well.

crying in ooc, as you yourself claimed isn't going to make me want to help you either.


So you can drop the 'pity me-I'm a warrior' attitude, all it takes in zoning ONCE into EC and doing a /who, then politely sending them a tell.


As for your example of the Nagafen raid. This example is FAIL. Why the hell would you care where you're bound for a dragon raid? You're guaranteed to have several clerics who have this nifty spell called resurrection. Does it matter whether you respawn in Oggok or FP? You clearly aren't joining the fight again.

[Kika Maslyaka]

The other guild was better organized. You are the idiot guild/raid leader that let all your casters sit around with their thumbs up their asses while your melees looked for binds. You want something to happen, make it happen. Send your casters to bind your melees. Or just have your melees not bind and don't wipe. If you are mobilizing first and you fail to get the raid target, then that's your fault, not the game's.

Again, your example is a minority case where your refusal to put forth effort or accept greater risk resulted in your loss.



What is stopping you from traveling between cities? I fail to see how I cannot remain bound in Ak`anon while I run to Paineel. Do I die from being too far from my bind spot? Is there a 3-zone leash that I can't be further than my bind spot from?

/shrug
the history have shown that game developers disagree with you, hence Soulbinders appeared in EQ :D

[Aadill]

This. All of this. And then some

+1

In any and call cases the basic idea behind soulbinders was to eliminate the inconveniences of the game that were easily rectified with careful planning. If you aren't willing to take the risks or plan ahead don't expect good results.

Furthermore, learning to talk to people and find friends that are willing to help you or /tell some random person and pay them a few plat to bind you is way more reasonable in terms of actually interacting with people instead of typing 'bind my soul' to another half-assed attempt at catering to the anti-social/casual solo gamer.

[stormlord]

Blaming people because they get bored? Blaming htem because they get discouraged having to run across the continent to bind a friend? Blaming them because they were unable to find a binder in the past 25 minutes, lacked patience and roamed around and got killed? There's a lot of blame going on and not much sympathy. Why? That bothers me. Maybe you haven't experienced the darker side of p1999, but it's there.

I guess the issue is this: we're humans. Humans have lives and they're known for making mistakes and mindless errors. So the game punishes them when they make these said mistakes. It's like punching a man in the gut because he breathes. See, the problem is they will always make these mistakes. Always. Some of the mistakes will be corrected and not repeated, but the vast majority of them that're relevant in this discussion will remain, time after time, in different forms. I think the advent of modern gaming has come to the conclusion that punishing evil is appropriate, but punishing mistakes isn't. Give players every opportunity to learn, only appearing every so often when your presence is required. Leave the rest to the players.

This is aside from the issue that basing a travel system on population or any kind of exclusivity is like inviting a serial killer into your home. But anyway, I know full well what hte rules are at project 1999 and do not expect them to chagne simply becuase I disagree. If I disagree I can go elsewhere or even make my own server (given the means and talent were actually there). I don't even feel passionate or angry about this.

I do not want to come here and throw insult after injury on EQ. I love this game. I loved 1999-01. Having to bind, not having maps for the zone, being thrown down and having my face shoved in the mud, I've enjoyed these things. Sometimes I like it rough. Over the years I've shared in my enjoyment of these things with others. I'm not making this up. It's the honest truth what I say here. And I'd be very sad if there was no game left on earth where you were treated like a disrespecting noob punk on monday morning - badly and indifferently.

But if someone presses me I'll be honest about something.

[falkun]

/shrug
the history have shown that game developers disagree with you, hence Soulbinders appeared in EQ :D

And yet people return to P99 to relive an experience where socializing and creating relationships matter, where that name above your avatar can find you a group or keep you LFGs for weeks.

The same developers that added Soulbinders, hearthstones, etc. are also the developers that are now adding extra rewards because tank classes refuse to group with idiot, random DPS that die because they stand in the fire that the tank will probably never see again.

How many groups in EQ chat about BS while grouping? How many groups in WoW chat about BS while instancing? The ratio is highly skewed in favor of socializing in EQ because socializing is mandatory and rammed down your throat. And damnit, I like it that way, that's why I came back.

[RiffDaemon]

/shrug
the history have shown that game developers disagree with you, hence Soulbinders appeared in EQ :D

Yeah, those same developers who stripped classes of some of their utility usefulness by introducing the PoK books and potions, who merged the Commonlands into one zone with new graphics, who changed Nektulos and Lavastorm, who took away old-school mob graphics (bats, rats, skellies, gobbies, etc.), etc. etc. etc.

:p

[falkun]

Blaming people because they get bored? Blaming htem because they have to run across the continent to bind a friend? Blaming them because they were unable to find a binder in the past 25 minutes, lacked patience and roamed around and got killed? There's a lot of blame going on and not much sympathy. Why? That bothers me. Maybe you haven't experienced the darker side of p1999, but it's there.

I know its there, but thats because your apathy lets it get there. Forcing interaction is what keeps EQ from turning into the anonymous bitchfest that WoW instances turned into. When you had to find a group on your server for instances in WoW, reputations mattered and people knew your name. Now, with the dungeon finder, people wipe on the first boss and ragequit. Which experience do you want EQ to follow?

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm telling people to accept responsibility for their own actions. If you mobilize to a raid target first and don't get the kill, how can you possibly blame someone other than yourself (assuming all PVE rules of engagement are adhered to)?

I guess the issue is this: we're humans. Humans have lives and they're known for making mistakes and mindless errors. So the game punishes them when they make these said mistakes. It's like punching a man in the gut because he breathes. See, the problem is they will always make these mistakes. Always. Some of the mistakes will be corrected and not repeated, but the vast majority of them that're relevant in this discussion will remain, time after time, in different forms. I think the advent of modern gaming has come to the conclusion that punishing evil is appropriate, but punishing mistakes isn't. Give players every opportunity to learn, only appearing every so often when your presence is required. Leave the rest to the players.

No, this game does not punish you for breathing. You are supposed to breath, just like you are supposed to interact with others for binds. You are supposed to breath, just like you are supposed to assist your MT. If you are not doing what you are supposed to, like taking unnecessary risk by soloing as most melees, then you are bucking the system and you better be prepared for that punch. Your analogy doesn't compare.

That's the other problem, modern games DON'T punish evil game practices. If you die in a modern game, how long does it take you to get back to killing? <5min. In EQ, if you die you could very well be spending multiple hours getting back to killing. Guess which game you feel more rewarded in? Guess which game teaches players to the point of intuition about game mechanics? 9 out of 10 players would say EQ.

If you fight appropriate monsters in Everquest in the appropriate setting, you won't be making mistakes and won't need outside intervention. If you aren't doing that, then its your own damn fault and you won't get outside intervention. Stop trying to place blame on anyone other than YOURSELF for YOUR decisions.

This is aside from the issue that basing a travel system on population or any kind of exclusivity is like inviting a serial killer into your home. But anyway, I know full well what hte rules are at project 1999 and do not expect them to chagne simply becuase I disagree. If I disagree I can go elsewhere or even make my own server (given the means and talent were actually there). I don't even feel passionate or angry about this.

If I knowingly invite a serial killer into my home, I can probably expect to die. If I base a travel system on population, I can expect to have difficulty in travel.

^^That's your comparison? Ok. Going from that...If I am polite to the serial killer and ask nicely, he may not kill me. If I ask other players nicely to assist with travel, they may help me. If they refuse to help me or the serial murder still decides to try to kill me, I am still capable of fending for myself: either hoofing it on foot or defending myself against a murderer. Either way, my fate in both instances is ENTIRELY in my control, from the time I let the murder into my house until either I or he is dead. Stop trying to blame "the system" for your mistakes in judgment or ability.

I do not want to come here and throw insult after injury on EQ. I love this game. I loved 1999-01. Having to bind, not having maps for the zone, being thrown down and having my face shoved in the mud, I've enjoyed these things. Sometimes I like it rough. Over the years I've shared in my enjoyment of these things with others. I'm not making this up. It's the honest truth what I say here. And I'd be very sad if there was no game left on earth where you were treated like a noob punk on monday morning.

This is how this game treats you, and you know what, you will become a better player because of it. You appreciate the miracles in group survival, you understand aggro range, etc. You want to feel rewarded for something, work for it. You don't feel rewarded for being handed something on a silver platter.

[stormlord]

And yet people return to P99 to relive an experience where socializing and creating relationships matter, where that name above your avatar can find you a group or keep you LFGs for weeks.

The same developers that added Soulbinders, hearthstones, etc. are also the developers that are now adding extra rewards because tank classes refuse to group with idiot, random DPS that die because they stand in the fire that the tank will probably never see again.

How many groups in EQ chat about BS while grouping? How many groups in WoW chat about BS while instancing? The ratio is highly skewed in favor of socializing in EQ because socializing is mandatory and rammed down your throat. And damnit, I like it that way, that's why I came back.This is off-topic, bud. But what you say is true. I have spent more time chatting with others in EQ than in most other modern MMORPGs. In fact, it was very rare for me to chat with people in DnD like I have in EQ. There's just not very much downtime. Most of the time that we're together we're moving. But on the other hand, people play MMORPGs to kill things, to quest, to move and accomplish. They don't usually play them to sit down and chat while medding. If they want that, they can login to a chat server or something more appropriate.

[Kika Maslyaka]

This is off-topic, bud. But what you say is true. I have spent more time chatting with others in EQ than in most other modern MMORPGs. In fact, it was very rare for me to chat with people in DnD like I have in EQ. There's just not very much downtime. Most of the time that we're together we're moving. But on the other hand, people play MMORPGs to kill things, to quest, to move and accomplish. They don't usually play them to sit down and chat while medding. If they want that, they can login to a chat server or something more appropriate.

and another +1 ;)

[Reubin]

Have the people complaining about looking for a bind for 45 minutes ever sent a caster a direct tell? I pretty much ignore everything in ooc a lot of the time...especially if I'm in tells with friends or something. But if someone sends me a polite tell asking for a bind I'll happily do it for them. I've never had a problem getting a bind on my melee characters when I've sent tells.

[falkun]

This is off-topic, bud. But what you say is true. I have spent more time chatting with others in EQ than in most other modern MMORPGs. In fact, it was very rare for me to chat with people in DnD like I have in EQ. There's just not very much downtime. Most of the time that we're together we're moving. But on the other hand, people play MMORPGs to kill things, to quest, to move and accomplish. They don't usually play them to sit down and chat while medding. If they want that, they can login to a chat server or something more appropriate.

killing things in this game is entirely possible. if you always want to be moving/pressing buttons then play a bard or go back to wow with its linear instances and strict rotations. noones making you play everquest. everquest is a game with static camps and social interaction in place of instances and rotations. if you want to press "123512341236" instead of "lol good joke man", then go for a game geared toward that. i dont go on to madden forums saying the linemen need guns so we can FPS it up.
you knew what you were getting yourself into, dont try to pass that blame off too.

[Messianic]

I guess the issue is this: we're humans. Humans have lives and they're known for making mistakes and mindless errors. So the game punishes them when they make these said mistakes. It's like punching a man in the gut because he breathes.

This is a really poor comparison. You do not receive physical or mental or emotional injury because you died on a different continent without being bound there. You just have to ask someone for help or take the long, hard road to your corpse. No one is getting punched. You're simply losing time - that's all.

Are you disappointed that the game actually following its own rules? Should the game say,"oh, he only accidentally bound himself in a stupid location, let's not allow those mobs to bindcamp him." Doesn't seem rational to me. Errors of omission are errors just the same as errors of commission.

Part of the resonant appeal of EQ is how brutal and unforgiving it is. You treat it with more respect when you play because of that. I didn't give a crap what happened in WoW because I had nice safety rails everywhere I went. I still find EQ more fun despite all the safety rails and Ezmodes WoW installed. I found it difficult not to make progress in WoW, even when I tried not to.

Blaming them because they were unable to find a binder in the past 25 minutes, lacked patience and roamed around and got killed? There's a lot of blame going on and not much sympathy. Why?

It's supposed to be a game with set rules, not silly flimsy rules based on people who are unable to deal with them. This server would suck like most of the others if we installed all the EZmodes that Live EQ did, and the population would be way lower.

In your example, they died because they lacked patience (something that is of incredible value in EQ, given how much more of an attention span it requires over WoW or other modern MMOs), and they pay a price in time. That's it.

It's not like someone is being harmed or crying over it - there's no reason to have empathy for someone dying in paineel while being bound in Gfay. I'd offer them a port to save them time, but they did not experience something horrible for which I should feel bad for them...

Would anyone play monopoly then muse over the lack of empathy of others when you land on boardwalk with an opponent's red hotel? You either enjoy the game for all it is, or you only enjoy it when it's easy...meaning you don't really enjoy it.

I can totally understand not enjoying EQ because of how harsh it is. But to try to change its ruleset or ask for empathy about how hard it is, is just silly. Once you eat the cake, you no longer have it.

[Kika Maslyaka]

the people who keep pushing for "its a social game" aspect somehow forgetting that all the inconvenient things somehow only affect HALF of the classes.

-its the melees that have to walk THERE AND BACK, while casters only need to walk there, and can get back instantly
-its the melees who need to get "social" and get some caster friends to get a bind, and not wait for 45 min to get one
-its the melees who have to fight their way out of the dungeon, rather than just gate out
-its the melees who have to run across 3 zones from a nearest possible bind point, to join their group, while casters can bind just outside the zone in

somehow, all the PUNISHMENT and "hard game" experience only falls on melees, while casters are never bothered with this concept.

And then you start screaming how WoW made it easier for everyone - no, not for everyone, only for the OTHER half of the players who didn't had this luxury for the first 5 years - the other half ALWAYS had it easy.

And then classes like ranger and and Sk have insane Xp penalties, while none of the casters do...
Hows that a good game balance?

[falkun]

the people who keep pushing for "its a social game" aspect somehow forgetting that all the inconvenient things somehow only affect HALF of the classes.

-its the melees that have to walk THERE AND BACK, while casters only need to walk there, and can get back instantly
-its the melees who need to get "social" and get some caster friends to get a bind, and not wait for 45 min to get one
-its the melees who have to fight their way out of the dungeon, rather than just gate out
-its the melees who have to run across 3 zones from a nearest possible bind point, to join their group, while casters can bind just outside the zone in

somehow, all the PUNISHMENT and "hard game" experience only falls on melees, while casters are never bothered with this concept.

And then you start screaming how WoW made it easier for everyone - no, not for everyone, only for the OTHER half of the players who didn't had this luxury for the first 5 years - the other half ALWAYS had it easy.

In all my years in EQ, I never played a binding class above L20. I still managed to raid and experience tons of content.

But, I'll indulge your "the haves vs. the have nots".

- Its casters that always have to sit and med while melees get to fight a mob from 100% -- 0%.
- Its casters that always have to scavange for armor while the melees get awesome armor sets.
- Its melees that get game-changing clickies like warriors getting shrink, invis, and a healing clicky or rangers with free summoned arrows.
- Its casters that, for the entire life of classic, have inferior DPS to melees.
- Its casters that have to wait for the melees to arrive before they can start doing anything, so they aren't gaining anything by being an ass to the warrior thats running those 3 zones you mention.

This game is NOT balanced in the way WoW is balanced. STOP trying to shoehorn YOUR ideas of balance on this game. If you want the type of balance you are discussing, go back to your newer MMOs. I want this kind of balance, so I'm here. If you want some other kind of balance, look somewhere else.

[baalzy]

Int casters have a 10% xp penalty, to split hairs.

Seriously, Kika, shut up. You're pretty much the only person who has a major problem with melee not being able to bind while casters can.

[falkun]

Seriously, Kika, shut up. You're pretty much the only person who has a major problem with melee not being able to bind while casters can.

Thanks for saying what I was too polite to.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Int casters have a 10% xp penalty, to split hairs.

Seriously, Kika, shut up. You're pretty much the only person who has a major problem with melee not being able to bind while casters can.

1. no, not the only one, don't indulge yourself
2. i don't have a "major problem" I am sharing my view on a game design
3. You can shut up now, if don't enjoy reading what I have to say. or don't read

[Kika Maslyaka]

In all my years in EQ, I never played a binding class above L20. I still managed to raid and experience tons of content.

But, I'll indulge your "the haves vs. the have nots".

- Its casters that always have to sit and med while melees get to fight a mob from 100% -- 0%.
- Its casters that always have to scavange for armor while the melees get awesome armor sets.
- Its melees that get game-changing clickies like warriors getting shrink, invis, and a healing clicky or rangers with free summoned arrows.
- Its casters that, for the entire life of classic, have inferior DPS to melees.
- Its casters that have to wait for the melees to arrive before they can start doing anything, so they aren't gaining anything by being an ass to the warrior thats running those 3 zones you mention.

This game is NOT balanced in the way WoW is balanced. STOP trying to shoehorn YOUR ideas of balance on this game. If you want the type of balance you are discussing, go back to your newer MMOs. I want this kind of balance, so I'm here. If you want some other kind of balance, look somewhere else.

you are confused here - i am NOT trying to change your game- this discussion about design flaws, instabilities and imbalances. If you don't see it that way, you can leave the discussion.

and no, WoW is not balanced neither, if that makes you happy =P

[bruno.sardine]

Any discussion of "haves" vs "have-nots" comes down to the fact that you know what your class can and cannot do at character creation. You don't arbitrarily pick a class with your eyes closed, you pick them because you think it'd be fun to play.

If being able to cast Gate and Bind Affinity are that important, play any one of the SEVEN classes that can cast it. For those keeping track at home, that's fully half of the available classes. If you don't want to play a caster, then accept that you can't and enjoy your class in spite of its supposes "limitations".

Classic Everquest was NEVER about balance or fairness. I could list about a hundred different ways in which Classic EQ isn't fair or balanced. Classic Everquest was, at heart, a role-playing game. It came from the same mindset as Dungeons and Dragons. That being said, it wouldn't make sense for a Warrior, say, to be able to cast a spell to bind his soul to a certain location. You have to decide whether the character you want to play is able to cast spells, or is evil, or can pick pocket. Homogenization doesn't make for a fun game. You have to decide what limitations and what powers your character has because nobody is forcing you to play one class or another, or to play the game at all.

The reason Classic EQ lost its feel was precisely because the developers started trying to make things fair and balanced. Everyone being able to port to the Nexus if they waited at a Scion was an example. PoK and how all the guards are neutral is another.

tl;dr: Classic EQ is and hopefully always will be about living with your choices and weighing your pros against your cons. It's up to you to decide where your characters' priorities lie.

[Eggborn]

I can't wait to get into this! Still contemplating if I want to be an SK again. I might go Troll this time, instead of lizard, but .. I really like being a lizard. Anyway....

What about getting someone to bind you at the fire pots? It's a long swim, but the dragon isn't usually there. Those are Kunark era, they should work.

[baalzy]

1) Firepots aren't a dungeon, so only casters or people using items with Bind Soul could bind at them.
2) Nobody can bind at the firepots anymore, this was only available for the first week of Kunark.

[Mcbard]

There are a couple of people in this thread that seem to be playing the wrong game.. or at the very least playing on the wrong server. :)

[Malrubius]

There are a couple of people in this thread that seem to be playing the wrong game.. or at the very least playing on the wrong server. :)

Kind of what I was about to say when I saw that this thread was still going for some reason.

There don't have to be any losers in this discussion! If you want Soulbinders, play on *any* other EQ server and you have them. Seems kind of...passive aggressive...to keep coming to the forums for this one server, and continually whining about their perceived benefits.

No bind for you! :p

[RiffDaemon]

I'll bind for free whenever I get to 14. So, if you need one and I'm in the area, give me a tell :)

[Lamprey]

I agree. If you want things easy, there's options - any game other than this one. If you're playing here, you get the original experience, warts & all.

Fact is, some people will always whine for "one more thing". First they want an easy way to bind. Then they ask for the Nexus. Then they want ports. Then they want the bazaar. Each of these on its own sounds like a perfectly reasonable request - won't change the game too much, after all. But it's a slippery slope: eventually they realize that the game they're now playing is nothing like the game they started with.

So they come back to a server like this, where things are as they used to be. And they start whining about not being able to bind themselves.

[Messianic]

"I demand mercenaries. If I do not get mercenaries, I am being obviously punished because I can't kill things as easily as necros or mages, so I am being discriminated against because my favorite class isn't a soloing class. All the classes should be homogeneous and flat because I'm too much of a pansy to deal with inequal classes. I should not be punished for my class choice, or, in other words, I should have access to everything everyone else has, regardless of my class choice. I do not care that class choice becomes meaningless if this is the case."

[Kika Maslyaka]

/shrug
as always die hard fans fail to understand a point of this discussion

[Mcbard]

/shrug
as always die hard fans fail to understand a point of this discussion

No, not really. Your point is that it's not balanced for melee classes to have to wait so long for a bind and that certain game mechanics are inherently broken and fixing them can not really cause any harm. Am I wrong?

The point is, that fixing the stuff that is broken or inconveniences people isn't what this server is about. This server is about replicating EQ as it was Classic-Velious, i.e. no soulbinders.

I'm pretty sure that's what the argument(s) boil down to. I don't think anybody missed anything really.

[Kika Maslyaka]

No, not really. Your point is that it's not balanced for melee classes to have to wait so long for a bind and that certain game mechanics are inherently broken and fixing them can not really cause any harm. Am I wrong?

The point is, that fixing the stuff that is broken or inconveniences people isn't what this server is about. This server is about replicating EQ as it was Classic-Velious, i.e. no soulbinders.

I'm pretty sure that's what the argument(s) boil down to. I don't think anybody missed anything really.

let me re-quote:

as always die hard fans fail to understand a point of this discussion


I never proposed any changes - I really don't have to, SOE knew it was right thing to do and they did it. The point was to demonstrate that it was a right thing to do.

[Mcbard]

Your point is that it's not balanced for melee classes to have to wait so long for a bind and that certain game mechanics are inherently broken and fixing them can not really cause any harm. Am I wrong?

We know it's broken, and we know that Sony later fixed this. We also know that this server is not intended to do either of those things. Where is the hang up? What am I missing? I would really like to know...

[Kika Maslyaka]

We know it's broken, and we know that Sony later fixed this. We also know that this server is not intended to do either of those things. Where is the hang up? What am I missing? I would really like to know...

discussing potential outcome of dropping a nuke on a city, is not the same thing as actually wanting to drop the nuke. Its all that is - discussion and speculation. The hang up is, that die hard fans seem to take anything as a direct threat the precious "classic standards", which will surely fall, if they don't all rush to its defense.

[falkun]

let me re-quote:


I never proposed any changes - I really don't have to, SOE knew it was right thing to do and they did it. The point was to demonstrate that it was a right thing to do.

Why does it have to be a right and wrong discussion? Why can't it be a design choice that other developers decided not to follow so they could garner more casual subscribers?

You are saying that adding non-interactive ports, binds, etc. to EQ (and all subsequent MMOs) is obviously a good thing because everyone since has done it that way. I am saying that adding non-interactive ports, binds, etc. to EQ (and all subsequent MMOs) is obviously a bad thing because it aided in decreasing interaction between players in a genre that is built around interaction.

Saying "It must be right because everyone since has done it" is like saying that "inventing machine helplines must be good for the business because everyone has them now". I'm sorry, it may lower operating costs, but I fucking hate talking to a god-damn machine because they can never answer my questions as accurately or as quickly as talking to a human being for half the time.

discussing potential outcome of dropping a nuke on a city, is not the same thing as actually wanting to drop the nuke. Its all that is - discussion and speculation. The hang up is, that die hard fans seem to take anything as a direct threat the precious "classic standards", which will surely fall, if they don't all rush to its defense.

I will acquiesce your point that you don't want to change P99. However, you are still trying to argue that classic EQ class imbalances are game-design flaws that were changed later. I refuse to see them as flaws. I see them as game-rules that advance the specific purpose of the genre this game belongs to.

[Malrubius]

let me re-quote:


I never proposed any changes - I really don't have to, SOE knew it was right thing to do and they did it. The point was to demonstrate that it was a right thing to do.

Then why are you here? SOE knew a lot of other things were the right thing to do too. You should go check them all out. :p

[stormlord]

Any discussion of "haves" vs "have-nots" comes down to the fact that you know what your class can and cannot do at character creation. You don't arbitrarily pick a class with your eyes closed, you pick them because you think it'd be fun to play.

If being able to cast Gate and Bind Affinity are that important, play any one of the SEVEN classes that can cast it. For those keeping track at home, that's fully half of the available classes. If you don't want to play a caster, then accept that you can't and enjoy your class in spite of its supposes "limitations".

Classic Everquest was NEVER about balance or fairness. I could list about a hundred different ways in which Classic EQ isn't fair or balanced. Classic Everquest was, at heart, a role-playing game. It came from the same mindset as Dungeons and Dragons. That being said, it wouldn't make sense for a Warrior, say, to be able to cast a spell to bind his soul to a certain location. You have to decide whether the character you want to play is able to cast spells, or is evil, or can pick pocket. Homogenization doesn't make for a fun game. You have to decide what limitations and what powers your character has because nobody is forcing you to play one class or another, or to play the game at all.

The reason Classic EQ lost its feel was precisely because the developers started trying to make things fair and balanced. Everyone being able to port to the Nexus if they waited at a Scion was an example. PoK and how all the guards are neutral is another.

tl;dr: Classic EQ is and hopefully always will be about living with your choices and weighing your pros against your cons. It's up to you to decide where your characters' priorities lie.Whether or not the rest of your points are correct or not, EQ lost its feel because: a) it got old with increasing baggage concerns b) SOE invested in EQ2, free realms, and now EQnext - they gave up on eq and settled with milking the remaining players b) other mmorpgs kept coming out and pulling potential new players in their direction, away from eq. SOE has a bad habit of abandoning games or impulsively changing them.

EQ declined and a lot of these changes were the response. Pok books were not added because the designers had a change of heart. They added pok books because the world was getting too big and too spread out and because there were less and less players to port you. Players took LONGER to travel from point A to point B. So they added the pok books. It's not rocket science. It's actually very simple. EQ suffered far more severely from lack of funding, lack of advertising and lack of interest from SOE than it ever did from a change of heart.

These kinds of arguments i've seen before. It's like people who say the game got easier. Umm, not really. It has got easier in the lower levels, but that's because new players are almost always alone and there're increasing amounts of levels/aa's to get. So the pace is more rapid. Duh. At the high levels, the game is still hard and bitchy. People need to upgrade their BS detector or something or play if they haven't.

I last played live in feb 2010. So don't tell me I don't know the game. I was lvl 85. Had some low lvl non-twinked alts too that I leveled to 38-51. I never boxed on live. So I got a good review of Eq1 up till last year.

I know classic EQ too. I started in march 1999. I made another ranger in late 2001.

EQ is a dying game. That's probably the biggest reason we see the changes we see. When you look at industry, it's all about money and then talent. With a game like this, no one is wanting to invest in it. It's too old. Even I would invest in a newer game. For the truth of the matter, witness the power (or lack thereof) of old age.

I had to live through all these years. I had to feel the pain. I was angry (in a misguided way) at a lot of things I see others here being angry about. I suspect it's just growing pains. Maybe one day we'll all understand and be on the same page. Or maybe we'll all for eternity be on separate pages, always arguing and fighting to agree on something. We live in a big, changing world. It's not a surprise that this happens. So it goes...