[Serious] Lets talk Top raiding guilds and their behavior

[Jeni]

It seems like its not possible to find a guild that both gets dragons and isn't full toxic neckbearding stay at home sons. I don't want to be locked out of raids because of toxic guild leaders and other members.

Menden's post shows that the staff are clearly fed up with this behavior. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=369962)

So are there any top guilds that actually do endgame content that aren't filled to the brim with the lowest and most vile degenerate scum on the box? Or is one of the prerequisites for raiding on this server to be a giant piece of human trash who takes emulated Everquest too serious in 2020?

[Ripqozko]

No sorry

[strongNpretty]

No sorry

There's your answer Jeni. Comin right from the tailpipe of one of the biggest P99 greasers.. All guilds have Ripqozko's in them.. that's the short answer.


Go outside and find some sort of real life Warder in the world Ripqozko. Report back your loot.

[Zoggren]

There are non-raiding guilds for neckbeard trash too. I think it is unfair to assume that all neckbeard trash insist on raiding. Many stay at home sons prefer casual too.

[Ripqozko]

There's your answer Jeni. Comin right from the tailpipe of one of the biggest P99 greasers.. All guilds have Ripqozko's in them.. that's the short answer.


Go outside and find some sort of real life Warder in the world Ripqozko. Report back your loot.

You just follow me around ? I'm not interested in you

[strongNpretty]

You just follow me around ? I'm not interested in you

https://i.imgur.com/dEJRchU.jpg

[Ghost of Starman]

So are there any top guilds that actually do endgame content that aren't filled to the brim with the lowest and most vile degenerate scum on the box? Or is one of the prerequisites for raiding on this server to be a giant piece of human trash who takes emulated Everquest too serious in 2020?

Kittens has been getting stronger and stronger and can tackle almost all the content on the server solo at primetime except maybe Tunare / AoW, it's just that the neckbeard guilds have bigger zergs, especially during the off hours, and have more no-lifers willing to push the boundaries, whereas Kittens follow the rules almost to a fault at times and will concede at the drop of a hat.

The only thing that will fix the current situation is either an enforced rotation on end game content or instancing of end game raid zones, that's really all the can be done, any other solutions have proven to be temporary and become abandoned once the more aggressive neckbeards break off and form new guilds which nullify prior agreements. Its an endless cycle until the GMs / server management decides to finally go with the permanent solutions.

[Ripqozko]

You just repeat yourself as well, sorry you are emotional about what I say. I'll be your friend .

[Jorgam]

Kittens has been getting stronger and stronger and can tackle almost all the content on the server solo at primetime except maybe Tunare / AoW, it's just that the neckbeard guilds have bigger zergs, especially during the off hours, and have more no-lifers willing to push the boundaries, whereas Kittens follow the rules almost to a fault at times and will concede at the drop of a hat.

The only thing that will fix the current situation is either an enforced rotation on end game content or instancing of end game raid zones, that's really all the can be done, any other solutions have proven to be temporary and become abandoned once the more aggressive neckbeards break off and form new guilds which nullify prior agreements. Its an endless cycle until the GMs / server management decides to finally go with the permanent solutions.

F'ing gag me. This Kittens praise circle jerk is so tiring.

[Arvan]

Kittens da best

[Fingurs]

Your post made 0 sense, but hurled a lot of insults.

Translation: No one is going to listen to you.

[Fammaden]

I promise you if you joined any one of the three guilds in question you would have mostly positive experiences and wonder what all the fuss is about. They are just people like you but they are playing a different aspect of the game entirely.

[Croco]

You can join the best guild on the server, we just killed a bunch of ToV dragons today, Kittens I mean. :)

[Psyborg]

Kittens has been getting stronger and stronger and can tackle almost all the content on the server solo at primetime except maybe Tunare / AoW, it's just that the neckbeard guilds have bigger zergs, especially during the off hours, and have more no-lifers willing to push the boundaries, whereas Kittens follow the rules almost to a fault at times and will concede at the drop of a hat.

The only thing that will fix the current situation is either an enforced rotation on end game content or instancing of end game raid zones, that's really all the can be done, any other solutions have proven to be temporary and become abandoned once the more aggressive neckbeards break off and form new guilds which nullify prior agreements. Its an endless cycle until the GMs / server management decides to finally go with the permanent solutions.

The rotation talk was already squashed today by Rogean/Nilbog. They do not want a rotated server and will not allow GMs to enforce it. Raiding will remain competitive and we will need to find a way to play nicer while doing it.

[Fammaden]

The rotation talk was already squashed today by Rogean/Nilbog. They do not want a rotated server and will not allow GMs to enforce it. Raiding will remain competitive and we will need to find a way to play nicer while doing it.

What if we decided to rotate on our own? They gonna force people to fight over shit?

[YendorLootmonkey]

The rotation talk was already squashed today by Rogean/Nilbog. They do not want a rotated server and will not allow GMs to enforce it. Raiding will remain competitive and we will need to find a way to play nicer while doing it.

Citation needed... was this on the forums somewhere, or in game/Discord?

[getsome]

Over beers at the backyard bbq.

[Fammaden]

Citation needed... was this on the forums somewhere, or in game/Discord?

Blue UN discord, confirmed by Galach. If Rog was willing to allow an NToV rotation then Braknar would have had his way.

[Croco]

Blue UN discord, confirmed by Galach. If Rog was willing to allow an NToV rotation then Braknar would have had his way.

well they can't really do anything if all the players involved decide to rotate, rotations are classic as it turns out

[Zoggren]

This high road of Riot and Kittens has gotten Riot suspended and Kittens only getting mobs without competition. I'm sorry, but you need to see your side of the street.

[Psyborg]

What if we decided to rotate on our own? They gonna force people to fight over shit?

No but they won’t enforce a rotation which means any guild that forms, dissolves, or simply chooses to break the agreement can do so at any time. For this reason and for the sake of competition (make fun of me all you want), AG and Freedom have independently come to the conclusion that we do not want to be part of any sweeping rotation. Tunare, Ring War, Fear Golems, maybe ST golems is about as far as we want to take it. Riot is the guild pushing hardest for a full rotation, much to my surprise. They believe it’s in the best interest of the server and we believe it will harm it. Gotta find a way to keep it competitive without burdening GMs with petitions. It’s the only way forward.

[Croco]

No but they won’t enforce a rotation which means any guild that forms, dissolves, or simply chooses to break the agreement can do so at any time. For this reason and for the sake of competition (make fun of me all you want), AG and Freedom have independently come to the conclusion that we do not want to be part of any sweeping rotation. Tunare, Ring War, Fear Golems, maybe ST golems is about as far as we want to take it. Riot is the guild pushing hardest for a full rotation, much to my surprise. They believe it’s in the best interest of the server and we believe it will harm it. Gotta find a way to keep it competitive without burdening GMs with petitions. It’s the only way forward.

Whether or not it helps or harms the server depends on who you want to cater to. Rotating is classic, so is not rotating. Do you want to cater to the people who get off on denying people pixels and will bend/break any rule they possibly can to the point where if you are in a high end raid guild you absolutely have to have at least one if not multiple people running OBS at all times to catch the misdeeds?

Or do you want to cater to the people who are in favor of something the vast majority of the server is in favor of? This game is over 20 years old. Virtually none of us are in our teens/20's anymore. We're mostly in our 30's-40's and older and we have lives, families, pets, and responsibilities. We don't care if guild X happens to get the same pixels as us. It doesn't devalue our accomplishments. The powers that be have fostered a server meta that has caused the troubles the raid scene is now experiencing.

At some point you have to ask yourself "Am I the problem?" and when it comes to how the server is run I believe that's a resounding yes. I applaud Menden, Galach, and Medris for stepping up and finally doing something about it.

[Hisamori]

No need to decide between rotation or FTE when we can just delete blue.

[enjchanter]

The cycle just repeats over and over

Guild 2 struggles vs current top guild
Guild 2 gains momentum
Top guild doesnt like that / rule change ensues
Guild 2 starts competing both america and euro hours
Infighting eats at top guild
Top crumbles / reforms / rebrands as no. 2 guild
Restart

[Psyborg]

Whether or not it helps or harms the server depends on who you want to cater to. Rotating is classic, so is not rotating. Do you want to cater to the people who get off on denying people pixels and will bend/break any rule they possibly can to the point where if you are in a high end raid guild you absolutely have to have at least one if not multiple people running OBS at all times to catch the misdeeds?

Or do you want to cater to the people who are in favor of something the vast majority of the server is in favor of? This game is over 20 years old. Virtually none of us are in our teens/20's anymore. We're mostly in our 30's-40's and older and we have lives, families, pets, and responsibilities. We don't care if guild X happens to get the same pixels as us. It doesn't devalue our accomplishments. The powers that be have fostered a server meta that has caused the troubles the raid scene is now experiencing.

At some point you have to ask yourself "Am I the problem?" and when it comes to how the server is run I believe that's a resounding yes. I applaud Menden, Galach, and Medris for stepping up and finally doing something about it.

I can appreciate that many would like rotations. I used to be in the same boat until I got a taste of competing and the bore that was instanced raiding in Classic WoW. I truly do have a all the empathy in the world for people who would like full rotations, which is why my compromise is a mix. I can only speak for myself and guild mates who share my view. Rotating is not fun and would make me want to stop playing. I enjoy competing against other guilds for kills with high stakes. I’m sure most of the server wouldn’t enjoy it but they have clearly found other ways to remain happy on the server. I believe it’s possible to compete without burdening the GMs and I have every intention of fighting for a solution that does that. I’d be happy to outline what I think I a logical approach.

[Ravager]

All due respect to Rogean and Nilbog, but why? More specifically, why not both? Leave the recycle servers for competition, make the beta server the place for people to retire in peace and quiet and rotations.


Anyway, what's to stop casual guilds from turning the tables and holding the raid scene hostage with incessant raid petitions until the GMs get fed up and decide competition is a bad thing? Not advocating this, but the gate swings both ways.

[feanan]

blue, where "competing" means how many fully buffed raid forces you can camp around the various targets.

the toxic raid scene has made a lot more people quit than the 10% who would quit if we just had enforced rotations or whatever

[Solist]

You're delusional if you think any other guild full of people would be any different. The raid guilds are the most casual guilds in many ways. And they're just full of every day normal people. TSS is a far more hostile environment than riot or freedom.

[Tunabros]

No sorry

[Shac]

just enforce a strict system for a month and then they wont take it for granted

[titanshub]

Kittens da best

da best! Come join us in progressing and getting better every day. No salty neckbeards allowed.

[JackofSpade]

Nothing posted by anyone in this thread matters or is gonna influence anyone actually making agreements regarding the raid scene. You can stop wasting your time, thoughts and energy...hope this helps

[Croco]

I can appreciate that many would like rotations. I used to be in the same boat until I got a taste of competing and the bore that was instanced raiding in Classic WoW. I truly do have a all the empathy in the world for people who would like full rotations, which is why my compromise is a mix. I can only speak for myself and guild mates who share my view. Rotating is not fun and would make me want to stop playing. I enjoy competing against other guilds for kills with high stakes. I’m sure most of the server wouldn’t enjoy it but they have clearly found other ways to remain happy on the server. I believe it’s possible to compete without burdening the GMs and I have every intention of fighting for a solution that does that. I’d be happy to outline what I think I a logical approach.

Having the 20-50 most hardcore "competition'ists" leave the server would be a huge net positive for everyone else.

[pogs4ever]

Red is for competition.

[Fammaden]

Having the 20-50 most hardcore "competition'ists" leave the server would be a huge net positive for everyone else.

Here's the thing, they wouldn't even fucking leave, they just say that now throwing a tantrum. Call their bluff, force a rotation (this isn't going to happen per staff though) and see what they do. They'll keep logging in for their pixels and be a general pain in the ass in some other way. A few might leave, not all.

[Psyborg]

Having the 20-50 most hardcore "competition'ists" leave the server would be a huge net positive for everyone else.

I don’t personally believe that to be true. I appreciate your view on it though.

[hewopepweow]

I can only speak for myself and guild mates who share my view. Rotating is not fun and would make me want to stop playing.


I'm reading this as "P99 raiding is so boring to me at this point the only way I get invested is by injecting tons of drama into it". And now were playing OBS/Petitionquest as people try to skirt every rule they can to grab more pixels.

It sounds more and more like a vocal minority who think that their ability to enjoy the end game a very specific way thinks that their personal experience is the most important thing, and everyone else needs to cater to it as such.

[Issar]

I'm reading this as "P99 raiding is so boring to me at this point the only way I get invested is by injecting tons of drama into it".

I have zero investment in any of this, but that's exactly how I read comment as well. Someone had the earlier suggestion of having a rotated server and a "competitive" server. I'm not sure the designations made the most sense, but the concept seems like a reasonable solution at this point, right?

[Grapeape]

. And now were playing OBS/Petitionquest as people try to skirt every rule they can to grab more pixels.


I think this is where the disconnect with reality is for so many people on the current situation. The petitions are being fired off left and right from both (all 3?) sides by people trying to hold everyone to the strictest letter of the rules, i.e. giving speeding tickets for exceeding the posted limit by 1 MPH, not as a result of a devious, purposeful effort to break rules.

[JackofSpade]

If the most competitive people as you put it left the server others would just end up taking their place, it's always worked that way. You guys have gotten along through one cycle, if y'all were the only raid guilds around in a few months you would be competitive against each other and grudges would form, disagreements, arguments etc.

If you don't like an open world competition based server go play on one with instances. Rotating all content on here just ain't gonna happen

[Croco]

If the most competitive people as you put it left the server others would just end up taking their place, it's always worked that way. You guys have gotten along through one cycle, if y'all were the only raid guilds around in a few months you would be competitive against each other and grudges would form, disagreements, arguments etc.

If you don't like an open world competition based server go play on one with instances. Rotating all content on here just ain't gonna happen

If you think the vast majority of leadership/members in Kittens, TSS, DB, Aegis... etc would just all the sudden become unreasonable @$$holes just because they happen to be the top guilds you obviously have never played or raided with these people. There's a reason we're in these guilds instead of the ones that are currently banned.

[Demonstorm]

If you think the vast majority of leadership/members in Kittens, TSS, DB, Aegis... etc would just all the sudden become unreasonable @$$holes just because they happen to be the top guilds you obviously have never played or raided with these people. There's a reason we're in these guilds instead of the ones that are currently banned.

No, the smaller guild would become the big guild, and then fighting would ensue. it always does.. You are telling me that if someone trained you and killed everyone on purpose in TOV that you would not petition them? Yes, you would. So now you know how it is to be in a bigger guild. Others will fuck you and try to get away with it.

[feniin]

I think about 90% of all incidents are accidental. The problem is that there's a lot of time invested, and pixels aren't going to loot themselves, so some players/guilds resist owning up to their mistakes as much as possible which creates a feedback loop of distrust and angst between the guilds.

[supercalif]

If you think the vast majority of leadership/members in Kittens, TSS, DB, Aegis... etc would just all the sudden become unreasonable @$$holes just because they happen to be the top guilds you obviously have never played or raided with these people. There's a reason we're in these guilds instead of the ones that are currently banned.

Wait a minute, so you’re saying that no one in these guilds would be upset by being leapfrogged, trained, rushed or zerged by another guild when you have been preparing for a target. I’ve seen all of these guilds rush Lodi, Vindi, KDT, VF and other epic targets with salt and shade when they lose.

100% not true and get off your high horse.

[Solist]

If you think the vast majority of leadership/members in Kittens, TSS, DB, Aegis... etc would just all the sudden become unreasonable @$$holes just because they happen to be the top guilds you obviously have never played or raided with these people. There's a reason we're in these guilds instead of the ones that are currently banned.

Quote for huge lols.

[Incubo]

last time we were all banned, the casuals were getting feisty at Aary steps, claims of trains, AEs, etc. It was on livestream for all to see. It will happen again if this goes on long enough.

[Detoxx]

We had a really good system in place a few years ago that catered to every guild and every style. Ive asked them to consider bringing it back for 3-4 years now. They wont for some reason.

#bringbacktheclasssystem

[azeth]

#bringbacktheclasssystem

[Bondrake]

Quote for huge lols.

You're so salty. Life isn't going well for you and these pixels are all you have? Sad.

[azeth]

all the sudden

suddenly. the word you need there is suddenly.

just ^^^ to the rest of you reading this, stop saying "ALL OF UH SUDDEN"

suddenly.













suddenly.

[Fammaden]

suddenly. the word you need there is suddenly.

just ^^^ to the rest of you reading this, stop saying "ALL OF UH SUDDEN"

suddenly.













suddenly.

Try telling that to Bob Marley.

[Croco]

No, the smaller guild would become the big guild, and then fighting would ensue. it always does.. You are telling me that if someone trained you and killed everyone on purpose in TOV that you would not petition them? Yes, you would. So now you know how it is to be in a bigger guild. Others will fuck you and try to get away with it.

You seem to think that guilds that currently act reasonably and cooperatively would suddenly (thanks azeth!) become pixel hungry train monsters and we'd all fall into the same toxic downward spiral that just recently got 3 guilds banned? Again I think you have no idea of the people that play in these guilds if you honestly think this would happen.

Wait a minute, so you’re saying that no one in these guilds would be upset by being leapfrogged, trained, rushed or zerged by another guild when you have been preparing for a target. I’ve seen all of these guilds rush Lodi, Vindi, KDT, VF and other epic targets with salt and shade when they lose.

100% not true and get off your high horse.

I'm saying that this leapfrogging, training, zerging that you're suggesting simply won't happen. The core nature and values of a guild doesn't change over night just because the dragons they're killing shift from kunark to velious.

You only have to look at what's happened since the 20th till now to see that. Just because all the pixel thirsty banned people can't envision a better system and a nicer way to do things doesn't mean everyone would operate how you've all operated.

[Fammaden]

Power corrupts.

[Croco]

Power corrupts.

No, power reveals. If you were already corrupt it will reveal that corruption. The corrupt guilds are on time out.

[Jorgam]

Kittens are corrupt. I recall Dooce attempting to hostile takeover another guild they were aligned with very clearly. This whole, we're just the nice guys here minding our own business act that Kittens is trying to front is absurd.

Why did you get Incubo suspended btw, nice guys?

[Psyborg]

You seem to think that guilds that currently act reasonably and cooperatively would suddenly (thanks azeth!) become pixel hungry train monsters and we'd all fall into the same toxic downward spiral that just recently got 3 guilds banned? Again I think you have no idea of the people that play in these guilds if you honestly think this would happen.



I'm saying that this leapfrogging, training, zerging that you're suggesting simply won't happen. The core nature and values of a guild doesn't change over night just because the dragons they're killing shift from kunark to velious.

You only have to look at what's happened since the 20th till now to see that. Just because all the pixel thirsty banned people can't envision a better system and a nicer way to do things doesn't mean everyone would operate how you've all operated.

It wouldn't happen over night but it would happen. It's not to say you are bad people but competitiveness would kick in. The fact that it didn't happen over the last week in this honeymoon phase isn't really all that telling.

[xdrcfrx]

Why did you get Incubo suspended btw, nice guys?

Possibly it was the giant train of kos mobs he brought with him to west exit?

Victim blaming is classic toxic behavior. This is why you're banned.

Sorry you were banned.

[feniin]

Kittens are corrupt. I recall Dooce attempting to hostile takeover another guild they were aligned with very clearly. This whole, we're just the nice guys here minding our own business act that Kittens is trying to front is absurd.

Why did you get Incubo suspended btw, nice guys?
Who hurt you?

[Jorgam]

Possibly it was the giant train of kos mobs he brought with him to west exit?

Victim blaming is classic toxic behavior. This is why you're banned.

Sorry you were banned.

If it was an accident, why didn't you guys just send some tells, have a few chuckles and move on with your lives like the anecdotal account of the recent Fear raids you had? I mean, you're not the toxic and ridiculous sorts that would petition people for an accident or mistake in order to secure concessions and free loot, right?

[xdrcfrx]

If it was an accident, why didn't you guys just send some tells, have a few chuckles and move on with your lives like the anecdotal account of the recent Fear raids you had? I mean, you're not the toxic and ridiculous sorts that would petition people for an accident or mistake in order to secure concessions and free loot, right?

it wasn't an accident, because he knew or should have known that he had many many mobs on him.

Also other than the last golem race we did against AG (grats guys! that was a close one!) we haven't been in fear recently. Might be thinking of someone else?

[Jorgam]

it wasn't an accident, because he knew or should have known that he had many many mobs on him.

Also other than the last golem race we did against AG (grats guys! that was a close one!) we haven't been in fear recently. Might be thinking of someone else?

Now you're laying onto him what you think he should have known, which is to say, you don't know if it was an accident or not. I would venture that it likely was because as a high end raider you know that training on purpose will net you a fine ban and there are not that many high end raiders who intentionally train raids with that consequence hanging out there.

And it seems that here in this thread there is mention of being in Fear quite recently per MaCtastic and that a mistaken train was pretty much laughed off and no one was petitioned.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370103&page=2

[xdrcfrx]

Well since we weren't in fear for anything this cycle, I'm guessing he is referring to two or more other guilds?

In this case, if you've seen the fraps of the train, you will know that the mobs behind Incubo were close enough that he FTE'd LTK before he even made it down the stairs to the exit room - he was almost certainly being cast on or getting AE'd before he made it that far. Whether or not he subjectively knew is besides the point, however- he should have. Not bothering to check was reckless, and generally people are held accountable for their reckless mistakes which result in damages to other.

[Toomuch]

Getting back on topic to the OP's questions, I feel like it's all matter of perspective. This sounds so silly, but it's also extremely obvious and plain to see: every guild feels like they are the white night, the innocent ones, the server good-guys, mostly because they see their own good, and don't see much of their own bad. "Bias or Rose-colored classes" is a factor, but that's not all. In a lot of cases, it's a lot more straightforward than that: it's literally what you see vs what the other guild sees.

In real terms: most guild members at a raid aren't pullers, right? Let's say you're a cleric main, the person everyone in your guild loves and respects for being a cleric main. So, during raid incidents, when 2 raid forces are in different places, but going for the same mob, YOU actually witness first-hand when the other guild trains your raid force. Lets say you've been on the server for a long time, and you've even seen it happen with your own eyes, a few times, where the same pullers from the other guild have dropped mobs on you. It's human nature that's gonna lead to some hard feelings. The thing is, you do not see everything that's going on. You definitely didn't see, with your own eyes, all the times your pullers trained their raid. You were in your own camp, healing the tank/raid, buffing, rezzing, etc. The train imbalance might even be as bad as 2:1, where your pullers are the truly guilty/dirty ones, but that's not what YOU see, on a regular basis, month in and month out.

Perspective is everything. Like it or not, it's human nature to be biased.

Outside of raids, I personally have had more bad interactions with Kittens members in recent months. It'd be unfair to lump them all into that category though. For example, at the same time one of those horrible interactions was going on, a different Kittens member (let's call him Player A) was being really cool with me, we were helping each other out, being nice and friendly to each other, and then the other bad experience happened with another Kittens member (let's call her Player B), who took advantage of a situation when Player A accidentally trained me when I finally got a named to pop at a camp. Player B killed the mob before player A was able to apologize, log on a cleric, and rez me. And it was a pretty quick log-over + rez, too. I had no fraps, so there was no discipline for the incident, per GM's.

It would be SO easy for me to hate all Kittens. It would especially be easy if it was just player B that trained me and took the mob, and Player A wasn't around or involved at all. But is that right? I brushed shoulders with a rotten egg, or maybe they were just in a bad mood or made an honest mistake killing the mob, being overzealous and trying to "help me kill it" (I never saw the corpse), or whatever. Does that make them all bad? No. Not even close. In fact, I've had way more positive experiences and interactions with Kittens members than bad ones. It's the same thing with Freedom, Riot, Azure Guard, and pretty much all other guilds that have ever existed on p99.

We humans have a natural tendency to get all defensive when we feel we've been attacked, harmed, slighted, offended, maligned, etc. As part of that defense, we look at the situation and decide who our enemy is, and bam, slap a label on 'em. "You guys are now the bad guys."

I'm not gonna tell people how to live their lives, and attempt to mandate what everyone should do/think instead, but I feel that it's crucial to point out this kind of biased and defensive nature that we all have.

My whole point here: in reality, in mi estimation, most guilds are made up of 90% or more "good guys". Most people think their own guilds are more like 95-98% good guys. Most people think that the other competing guilds are more like 50-60% good guys, if that.

It's all perspective.

[pogs4ever]

If it was an accident, why didn't you guys just send some tells, have a few chuckles and move on with your lives like the anecdotal account of the recent Fear raids you had? I mean, you're not the toxic and ridiculous sorts that would petition people for an accident or mistake in order to secure concessions and free loot, right?

Hi Nishoba,

Purpyl here. Happy to clear some things up for you.

AG/F's defense was that Incubo went against raiders leaders orders and therefore they should not be subject to raid suspension.

Here is your teams defense [verbatim from your team's defense papers]:
Incubo: Is it Safe to run out?
Furors: I would take a TL; I think hub is going to be dirty
Incubo: Nope, nah, I'm going.

Your leadership left the GM's no choice but to suspend Incubo with that defense that incubo did it on purpose and against the raid leaders orders.

[pogs4ever]

that being said, i agree dooce is shady AF.

[strongNpretty]

That's it, time to revive Blackheart Pirates :) :) :)

[pogs4ever]

That's it, time to revive Blackheart Pirates :) :) :)

I have found memories of being in <homeland (security)> and wiping to vindi with like 80 people with them!

[Jorgam]

Hi Nishoba,

Purpyl here. Happy to clear some things up for you.

AG/F's defense was that Incubo went against raiders leaders orders and therefore they should not be subject to raid suspension.

Here is your teams defense [verbatim from your team's defense papers]:
Incubo: Is it Safe to run out?
Furors: I would take a TL; I think hub is going to be dirty
Incubo: Nope, nah, I'm going.

Your leadership left the GM's no choice but to suspend Incubo with that defense that incubo did it on purpose and against the raid leaders orders.

Hi Purpyl. Thanks for shedding light on this. I admit I didn't know of that particular detail. I guess that I have to agree that he dun goofed. But I do believe there was a valiant attempt to make it right by both FR and AG which was declined by Kittens all around. What went on with that?

If things have changed over there since Dooce, great. It just seems that things are not as clear and clean RE Kittens as everyone is trying to portray it. The mud splatters on all things in ToV.

[strongNpretty]

I have found memories of being in <homeland (security)> and wiping to vindi with like 80 people with them!

Man I don't think i was ever part of raiding Vindi with Hydra.. Just sky.. Oh my god so much plane of sky.....

[dyonak]

Hey Nishoba,

I certainly recognize things got gross as we extricated ourselves from the Hydra alliance. Given the behavior of BHP's former guild leader Kittens had to take action in order to keep raids enjoyable for its members. I don't think that was the wrong decision.

At that time it was very frustrating to be having to leave an alliance where we thoroughly enjoyed 99.99% of the members involved. We made an open offer for anyone that wanted to transition to Kittens and continue raiding with us because we liked you guys. I don't regret doing that but it sounds like I could have done a better job communicating the intent.

I always enjoyed the interactions we've had and am a bit saddened to know I've been this negatively impactful on your experience of the game. Wish you all the best man and apologies for my contributions to the muck at the end of the Hydra alliance.

-Dooce

[Jorgam]

Hey Nishoba,

I certainly recognize things got gross as we extricated ourselves from the Hydra alliance. Given the behavior of BHP's former guild leader Kittens had to take action in order to keep raids enjoyable for its members. I don't think that was the wrong decision.

At that time it was very frustrating to be having to leave an alliance where we thoroughly enjoyed 99.99% of the members involved. We made an open offer for anyone that wanted to transition to Kittens and continue raiding with us because we liked you guys. I don't regret doing that but it sounds like I could have done a better job communicating the intent.

I always enjoyed the interactions we've had and am a bit saddened to know I've been this negatively impactful on your experience of the game. Wish you all the best man and apologies for my contributions to the muck at the end of the Hydra alliance.

-Dooce

Hi Dooce,

I can't deny that it all went to shit at the end and things were done that were unpleasant. We had fun, but the culmination of everything that night in officer chat was really bad. I didn't even think you were still playing tbh. As you know Aceart isn't, due to other things he is to blame for.

I wish it didn't go off like that and maybe I'm just letting ghosts of the past cloud my judgement with everything going on.

Hope you take care out there too. Maybe I'll see you around once all of this shit gets sorted out.

[strongNpretty]

Hey Nishoba,

I certainly recognize things got gross as we extricated ourselves from the Hydra alliance. Given the behavior of BHP's former guild leader Kittens had to take action in order to keep raids enjoyable for its members. I don't think that was the wrong decision.

At that time it was very frustrating to be having to leave an alliance where we thoroughly enjoyed 99.99% of the members involved. We made an open offer for anyone that wanted to transition to Kittens and continue raiding with us because we liked you guys. I don't regret doing that but it sounds like I could have done a better job communicating the intent.

I always enjoyed the interactions we've had and am a bit saddened to know I've been this negatively impactful on your experience of the game. Wish you all the best man and apologies for my contributions to the muck at the end of the Hydra alliance.

-Dooce

The best days of BHP were easily the Kittens/SOTS/Homeland Days. I miss those days so much. Learned a lot from all those folks... After Tpar was banned i got an email from him with some details.. Part of those details was him explaining his ban, and that ALS had stolen BHP/Hydra Alliances bank.... Who got some more details on all this?

To all the folks around during this time.. I miss yall!

[Beldan4]

...Join red. problem solved. No neckbeard. Mobs are NOT on a variable timer.

[JackofSpade]

...Join red. problem solved. No neckbeard. Mobs are NOT on a variable timer.

you red players come across as so pathetic, it turns off people who might be on the fence about making a toon there. Y'all sound so desperate and it makes it seem like your server is a boring ghost town that is dying, so you beg in unrelated threads for people to join

[pogs4ever]

But I do believe there was a valiant attempt to make it right by both FR and AG which was declined by Kittens all around. What went on with that?


So we reached out to AG leadership and we got Octaveous 13 minutes later on his mobile out of game because the AG leadership in game was presumably busy bagging dragons. We had already dragged and rezzed when AG offered to send a cleric.

The issue was we had to clear a *second* round of WToV mobs to get a clear shot again at LTK.

Our next target after LTK was Yelinak (we had officers moving coth bots for a smooth transition).

AG admitted that the train was bad and clearly set us back but downplayed that they set us back like 45+ minutes on a quake with several still very good dragons up. AG killed Yelinak in that time frame so he was no longer available to us.

We wanted the concession of LTK + Yelinak. But AG/F gave a LTK and instead of Yelinak - Gozzrem and Telk. Naturally, we declined it.

[pogs4ever]

The best days of BHP were easily the Kittens/SOTS/Homeland Days. I miss those days so much.

Same.

[Praxcthius]

so if you get trained according to what you've said then you can request concessions literally on any mob that's still up after a quake. I see. hmm by saying you had to "clear" mobs for ltk again.... get caught up in the now. the meta is to train all of west tov to drop down. git gud. and being butthurt that another guild killed a mob 1,2,3,4 zones away. Kittens it's really deplorable how you embrace victimhood. now on one hand count how many times you've been trained by other guilds. ok. now on the Other hand count how many times you have trained yourself. I'm guessing the latter is by far exponentially greater than the former.

[strongNpretty]

you red players come across as so pathetic, it turns off people who might be on the fence about making a toon there. Y'all sound so desperate and it makes it seem like your server is a boring ghost town that is dying, so you beg in unrelated threads for people to join

Relax man.

[Toomuch]

So we reached out to AG leadership and we got Octaveous 13 minutes later on his mobile out of game because the AG leadership in game was presumably busy bagging dragons. We had already dragged and rezzed when AG offered to send a cleric.

The issue was we had to clear a *second* round of WToV mobs to get a clear shot again at LTK.

Our next target after LTK was Yelinak (we had officers moving coth bots for a smooth transition).

AG admitted that the train was bad and clearly set us back but downplayed that they set us back like 45+ minutes on a quake with several still very good dragons up. AG killed Yelinak in that time frame so he was no longer available to us.

We wanted the concession of LTK + Yelinak. But AG/F gave a LTK and instead of Yelinak - Gozzrem and Telk. Naturally, we declined it.

I'm not wanting to get all super-angsty here, but what you said here is very interesting, and feel it merits a level-headed response. Before I get to that though, yes it sucks you got trained, and it sucks even more that we (AG) took a while to get back to you about it. Poor form, on our part, hence going above and beyond in trying to make things right.

However, you're literally saying you wanted to set a new precedent/raid-rule on the fly, one based on missed opportunity.

All raiding guilds have been trained and wiped by other guilds before, but it has never been the policy or agreed-upon precedent to concede OTHER mobs, when an infraction occurs. Requiring this would be extremely murky waters.

For example, you're saying that if it quakes, and Riot trains AG on Dozekar, that Riot then needs to concede... what mob(s) exactly? AG can pick the target(s) that they'd like Riot to concede, in addition to Dozekar? Seeing as AG is capable of moving on to any other major target next, would Riot have to concede all of ToV? Doze + any other Velious target of AG's choosing?

That's just not how it has ever worked before in the raiding scene. The precedent has been set & agreed upon as conceding that mob that you got trained on/at.

AG actually went well above the precedent, *genuinely* trying to make things right, and conceded 3 different targets, not just the one required. This was turned down/scorned, as you stated.

By all means, a new precedent based on "opportunity lost" can indeed be discussed in the UN channel, but again, things like that can't be requested/demanded on the fly, Ultimately it's really murky waters though, and seems really lawyer-questy to me, which is something we're currently putting a lot of effort into trying to move away from, not toward.

[Duckwalk]

In a vacuum that makes sense however in reality this was more of a straw that broke the camel‘s back type situation. Prior trains and prior concessions, in some cases left unfulfilled, plus multiple pieces of evidence pointing to a direct and malicious intent on incubo’s behalf, and incontrovertible proof of wrong doing led to a desire to get a firm ruling and/or punishment.

Take that for what you will.

[xdrcfrx]

there's also a material difference between, say training the other guild pulling mobs over the aary stairs in the hall, vs. the train incubo dumped on kwsm at the west exit.

one is just a consequence of the competitive atmosphere, and should be handled exactly as you have described.

The other wasn't really a raid-related mistake made in the heat of the moment, and should not be treated the same way.

It's like in football - personal fowl during play? 15 yards. Personal fowl after the play / on the side lines? ejected from the game.

You need to look at this more critically than just "train = the same in all situations."

[Duckwalk]

However, you're literally saying you wanted to set a new precedent/raid-rule on the fly, one based on missed opportunity.

All raiding guilds have been trained and wiped by other guilds before, but it has never been the policy or agreed-upon precedent to concede OTHER mobs, when an infraction occurs. Requiring this would be extremely murky waters.

For example, you're saying that if it quakes, and Riot trains AG on Dozekar, that Riot then needs to concede... what mob(s) exactly? AG can pick the target(s) that they'd like Riot to concede, in addition to Dozekar? Seeing as AG is capable of moving on to any other major target next, would Riot have to concede all of ToV? Doze + any other Velious target of AG's choosing?

That's just not how it has ever worked before in the raiding scene. The precedent has been set & agreed upon as conceding that mob that you got trained on/at.

AG actually went well above the precedent, *genuinely* trying to make things right, and conceded 3 different targets, not just the one required. This was turned down/scorned, as you stated.

By all means, a new precedent based on "opportunity lost" can indeed be discussed in the UN channel, but again, things like that can't be requested/demanded on the fly, Ultimately it's really murky waters though, and seems really lawyer-questy to me, which is something we're currently putting a lot of effort into trying to move away from, not toward.

This is an interesting point that should probably be discussed by guild leaders because it gets to the heart of the complaint.

Assume as in your example that Riot trains AG at Doze then concedes Doze. While AG recovers, Riot goes on to knock off a couple NToV dragons and then as AG prepares to killed Doze for the second time Riot trains them again "accidentally". By apparently established precedent Riot should now concede Doze twice in a row? By the time AG has recovered even more high priority targets are dead. Can Riot train AG at the same mob over and over again, assuming "accidental" and by the rules as you've outlined them only fairly be expected to concede that one mob abet multiple spawns of it?

Thinking about it in this manner more accurately describes the situation at hand. Kittens were in west and had been there for quite a bit clearing for LTK. This was known. Assuming the train was intentionally designed to set them back, is concession of that one mob and two far less valuable targets the appropriate penalty especially when AG had very little interest in those targets conceded? If Kittens knowns TSS is preparing to move from Velk to LTK, a target they too desire, can they "accidentally" train them at Velk and offer concession of Velk and Lord Bob as apporpriate recompense, AFTER Kittens has gone on to kill LTK?

[Ashenden]

The best days of BHP were easily the Kittens/SOTS/Homeland Days. I miss those days so much. Learned a lot from all those folks... After Tpar was banned i got an email from him with some details.. Part of those details was him explaining his ban, and that ALS had stolen BHP/Hydra Alliances bank.... Who got some more details on all this?

To all the folks around during this time.. I miss yall!

Did he explain he was banned for impersonating a guide for years and that every guild in Hydra voted to leave and form Aegis that same day? Except maybe BHP, think those people formed a new guild (since their leader was banned) to join Aegis, so if anyone had access to some kind of guildbank it was probably those ex officers.

But yes I do imagine the Hydra bank became the Aegis bank since it was essentially the same alliance in the same Sky slot with one less member.

Fun times.

[Grapeape]

This is an interesting point that should probably be discussed by guild leaders because it gets to the heart of the complaint.

Assume as in your example that Riot trains AG at Doze then concedes Doze. While AG recovers, Riot goes on to knock off a couple NToV dragons and then as AG prepares to killed Doze for the second time Riot trains them again "accidentally". By apparently established precedent Riot should now concede Doze twice in a row? By the time AG has recovered even more high priority targets are dead. Can Riot train AG at the same mob over and over again, assuming "accidental" and by the rules as you've outlined them only fairly be expected to concede that one mob abet multiple spawns of it?

Thinking about it in this manner more accurately describes the situation at hand. Kittens were in west and had been there for quite a bit clearing for LTK. This was known. Assuming the train was intentionally designed to set them back, is concession of that one mob and two far less valuable targets the appropriate penalty especially when AG had very little interest in those targets conceded? If Kittens knowns TSS is preparing to move from Velk to LTK, a target they too desire, can they "accidentally" train them at Velk and offer concession of Velk and Lord Bob as apporpriate recompense, AFTER Kittens has gone on to kill LTK?

I'm sorry. Could you please clarify this for me? Are you saying that kittens was trained intentionally, for the purpose of setting them back or slowing them down on a quake? Was there a reason to believe Fr/AG would have a motivation to do that?

[Croco]

I'm sorry. Could you please clarify this for me? Are you saying that kittens was trained intentionally, for the purpose of setting them back or slowing them down on a quake? Was there a reason to believe Fr/AG would have a motivation to do that?

Watch the video that was posted as defense. Incubo can clearly be heard asking if it was ok to train out west, Furoar says something about the 4 way being dirty and that he wouldn't and would just get a TL, Incubo then says "Nah". Everyone in zone had been seeing Kitten FTE messages on LTK for at least 15-25 minutes while we were clearing trash. That's probably why Furoar suggested not to train west and Incubo did it anyway. It might not have been intentional per se but it was definitely done recklessly and against the better judgment of AG/F raid leaders.

[Duckwalk]

Right, and from what I remember the video was very convienently cut right at that moment seeming to indicate there was more discussion on the matter let out of the video.
Maybe thats just paranoia but prior immediate history between Kittens and AG would lend to the notion that the extremely reckless at best actions of Incubo were potentially far most malicious, especially considering the circumstances and competition for similar mobs during an EQ.

[sydbarrett25]

Kittens are corrupt. I recall Dooce attempting to hostile takeover another guild they were aligned with very clearly. This whole, we're just the nice guys here minding our own business act that Kittens is trying to front is absurd.

Why did you get Incubo suspended btw, nice guys?

Lol, furoar told him not to go west and was left with an infamous, “nah”

[Xulia]

From what I've seen in the UN channel, Freedom has been proven to not get as many targets as KWSM but wants to continually use bully tactics (Dogpiling, veiled threats, etc.) to keep them from joining in the discussion. It's disturbing that this behavior is playing out not only in the UN but in RNF as well with no oversight from GMs and nothing from AG leadership calling it out. If they wanted to actually curb toxicity it's playing out right in front of them. I'm hoping that the wheels of justice turn slow, and the GMs are monitoring RNF as well as the UN.

[Dreenk317]

From what I've seen in the UN channel, Freedom has been proven to not get as many targets as KWSM but wants to continually use bully tactics (Dogpiling, veiled threats, etc.) to keep them from joining in the discussion. It's disturbing that this behavior is playing out not only in the UN but in RNF as well with no oversight from GMs and nothing from AG leadership calling it out. If they wanted to actually curb toxicity it's playing out right in front of them. I'm hoping that the wheels of justice turn slow, and the GMs are monitoring RNF as well as the UN.

Couple points here.

1. Why is AG leadership responsible for what Freedom does?

2. There has been response from the GM's. They told Kittens that this new agreement had to be made by AG/F/R. As had been originally banned and asked to come up with an agreement between them to reduce the petition quest. Why does kittens think they are part of that?

[Xulia]

Couple points here.

1. Why is AG leadership responsible for what Freedom does?



I never said they were responsible for them. However in the context of raiding, AG partners with Freedom for many targets that are the listed in this ban while Riot does them alone, but they're acting like they're two separate entities. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?


2. There has been response from the GM's. They told Kittens that this new agreement had to be made by AG/F/R. As had been originally banned and asked to come up with an agreement between them to reduce the petition quest. Why does kittens think they are part of that?

Because they are able to achieve more of the targets listed as raid targets than Freedom is, but the rules are being dictated by a guild that isn't capable of taking down those targets on their own. KWSM - and any guild that can raid - has every right to be a part of discussion on rules that affect them regardless of the guilds that were banned. If the rules are going to affect everyone, why should only a select few be able to provide input?

[Solist]

Xulia, thats some sad as shit praying for cancel culture. Your solution to something you don't like is to advocate for it to be humiliated by its peers. You're obviously incapable of unbiased reading, but I suggest giving it all a go. Sans your emotions.

Secondly, the GM's told kittens to shut the fuck up and let people involved in the dicsussion talk. Kittens choose not to compete. If kittens want a seat at the table, they can also sit out raid banned like the rest of us.

Thirdly, there is 2+ months of backlog public viewable of detoxx being quite reasonable, furoar playing dumb and being abrasive, and both uni and arcler being some toxic condescending immovable walls to any sort of productive discourse. The dogpiling is almost exclusively riot+KHSM on freedom currently?

Fourth, noone cares who keer is, and why he/she is an admin, and is talking. Needs to shut the fuck up. Attention seeking shit by people who fall into the roles by happenstance and chance is a good display of poor character traits.

[Xulia]

Xulia, thats some sad as shit praying for cancel culture. Your solution to something you don't like is to advocate for it to be humiliated by its peers. You're obviously incapable of unbiased reading, but I suggest giving it all a go. Sans your emotions.

Who are you? I've never interacted with you before.


Secondly, the GM's told kittens to shut the fuck up and let people involved in the dicsussion talk. Kittens choose not to compete. If kittens want a seat at the table, they can also sit out raid banned like the rest of us.


Proving my point of making veiled threats; IE "If you want to be a part of the rule making then you will get banned too."


Thirdly, there is 2+ months of backlog public viewable of detoxx being quite reasonable, furoar playing dumb and being abrasive, and both uni and arcler being some toxic condescending immovable walls to any sort of productive discourse. The dogpiling is almost exclusively riot+KHSM on freedom currently?


Not based on what I and many others have seen in the UN.


Fourth, noone cares who keer is, and why he/she is an admin, and is talking. Needs to shut the fuck up. Attention seeking shit by people who fall into the roles by happenstance and chance is a good display of poor character traits.

Telling someone to "shut the fuck up" after they've legitimately helped the UN when you're trying to appear less toxic is self defeating. Just so you know.

[strongNpretty]

Hmmm after weeks of reading this crap on the forums- Im'a go ahead and just remind ya'll to... TRY RED TODAY :)

[Solist]

I didnt tell her to shut the fuck up. I said she needs to shut the fuck up. Being asked to help the UN does not mean having now carte blanch admin rights.

As for veiled threats, thats not a threat. It's as simple as if it doesnt affect you, and for 5 years you've shown no intention that it will ever affect you, then perhaps being a cheerleader is better than being on the field. Kittens are welcome to join in the competitive scene, for better or worse. There is no place to only take the good and leave the bad.

Again, you're incredibly incapable of reading without bias. Go read. Cover the names up in your mind. If you can't see the condescending and demeaning tone of almost all arcler comments leading up to the moment it became public then I feel you're also not qualified to be discussing it or having an opinion.

[Xulia]

I feel you're also not qualified to be discussing it or having an opinion.

Right back at you, I see no reason to entertain the opinion of someone who hides behind the name of a character from lore but wants to continue trying - and failing - to bully others.

[Solist]

Right back at you, I see no reason to entertain the opinion of someone who hides behind the name of a character from lore but wants to continue trying - and failing - to bully others.

What? Solist has been around in IB, then Rampage since 2013? And other toons well prior back to 2009 december or so.

[bktroost]

.

#bringbacktheclasssystem

[Dreenk317]

I never said they were responsible for them. However in the context of raiding, AG partners with Freedom for many targets that are the listed in this ban while Riot does them alone, but they're acting like they're two separate entities. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?


You are the one that called out AG for not calling out Freedom. I put no words in your mouth. You are trying to hold AG responsible for not policing another guild. Sorry AG doesnt behave like Riot and try to tell everyone how to play this game.


Because they are able to achieve more of the targets listed as raid targets than Freedom is, but the rules are being dictated by a guild that isn't capable of taking down those targets on their own. KWSM - and any guild that can raid - has every right to be a part of discussion on rules that affect them regardless of the guilds that were banned. If the rules are going to affect everyone, why should only a select few be able to provide input?

If they want in on the negotiations, they need to be in on the problem. They were not/are not part of the problem, and choose to be non competitive. Freedom is part of the problem, and choose to be very competitive. That i s why kittens is not part of this and freedom is. As others have said, if kittens wants in, they can join the raid ban. Instead of trying to call shots from the sidelines.

[Duckwalk]

If they want in on the negotiations, they need to be in on the problem. They were not/are not part of the problem, and choose to be non competitive. Freedom is part of the problem, and choose to be very competitive. That i s why kittens is not part of this and freedom is. As others have said, if kittens wants in, they can join the raid ban. Instead of trying to call shots from the sidelines.

The absurdity of this idea amazes. The underlying issue of the ban relates to the fact that Riot/Ag/Freedom perpetually break rules and create a toxic environment for the server. They have been tasked with finding a solution to those problems. By your logic, because Kittens is not toxic and follows the rules they are required to cede any decision making authority? Lol what?

"Hey guys, we're toxic petty assholes that ruin the server and if another guild wants to have any input on how to make the server less horrible going forward they need to be toxic petty assholes too".

You're an idiot.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Why should the people who play by the rules and go out of their way to treat people with respect and fairness have to join in on a raid ban to be considered relevant? The fact that kittens activity stayed out of the cluster fuck that is tov and chose to not be a part of the problem while still getting down dragons is more than enough reason to include them on server wide raid rule changes

[Sancta]

Why should the people who play by the rules and go out of their way to treat people with respect and fairness have to join in on a raid ban to be considered relevant? The fact that kittens activity stayed out of the cluster fuck that is tov and chose to not be a part of the problem while still getting down dragons is more than enough reason to include them on server wide raid rule changes

Do you have any examples of Kittens attempting competitive targets? As in - the raid mob is up and more than 1 guild is going for it? Choosing not to compete with competitive targets excludes you from having a say creating competitive rules, especially if you don't even have a full grasp on the rules/mechanics/meta of being competitive.

[Xulia]

You are the one that called out AG for not calling out Freedom. I put no words in your mouth. You are trying to hold AG responsible for not policing another guild. Sorry AG doesnt behave like Riot and try to tell everyone how to play this game.

If Riot teamed up with another guild to get targets we couldn’t on our own, and the other guild acted like Freedom I would expect Riot to do the same and say “Hey, please stop acting like this”. I’m not holding any guild to a standard I wouldn’t hold the one I’m in.



If they want in on the negotiations, they need to be in on the problem. They were not/are not part of the problem, and choose to be non competitive. Freedom is part of the problem, and choose to be very competitive. That i s why kittens is not part of this and freedom is. As others have said, if kittens wants in, they can join the raid ban. Instead of trying to call shots from the sidelines.

Freedom hasn’t been competitive in as much as they’ve been loud and disruptive. KWSM can kill Vulak alone, Freedom hasn’t. Quit trying to threaten another guild with a ban for doing nothing wrong as the entry fee for having a say in rules that affect them. It makes it seem like Freedom doesn’t want KWSM to join the discussion for some reason.

[Ennewi]

“I ascribe to Mark Twain's theory that the last person who should be President is the one who wants it the most. The one who should be picked is the one who should be dragged kicking and screaming into the White House.”

― Bill Hicks

[Dreenk317]

If Riot teamed up with another guild to get targets we couldn’t on our own, and the other guild acted like Freedom I would expect Riot to do the same and say “Hey, please stop acting like this”. I’m not holding any guild to a standard I wouldn’t hold the one I’m in.





Freedom hasn’t been competitive in as much as they’ve been loud and disruptive. KWSM can kill Vulak alone, Freedom hasn’t. Quit trying to threaten another guild with a ban for doing nothing wrong as the entry fee for having a say in rules that affect them. It makes it seem like Freedom doesn’t want KWSM to join the discussion for some reason.


i didnt "threaten" you with anything, relax. I said you can join in on the ban. Did not threaten to try to get you banned. So please, dont put words in my mouth. And can kittens kill vulak competitively? Or only when no one is contesting? I have not been there for every vulak, far from it. But ive never, ever heard of kittens contesting vulak. And yes, freedom does compete, thats why they are in ToV with AG all the time going for targets against riot. Im glad kittens has enough members to kill vulak. Maybe they should get those members to compete and learn the mechanics, then they can have a say in creating the rules for the competition, involving said mechanics.

[Duckwalk]

Do you have any examples of Kittens attempting competitive targets? As in - the raid mob is up and more than 1 guild is going for it? Choosing not to compete with competitive targets excludes you from having a say creating competitive rules, especially if you don't even have a full grasp on the rules/mechanics/meta of being competitive.

Lol how many more times are we going to move the goalposts? Last I checked Kittens is right there in NToV competing with AG/Freedom for Aary onward. But for some reason this doesn’t count because Kittens refuse sock natural spawns?

[Xulia]

i didnt "threaten" you with anything, relax. I said you can join in on the ban. Did not threaten to try to get you banned. So please, dont put words in my mouth.

I said "another guild" not me, I know you didn't threaten me and never said you did. You're making that up entirely.

And can kittens kill vulak competitively? Or only when no one is contesting? I have not been there for every vulak, far from it.

Okay so you probably would do the respectable thing and say "So I'm probably not the best to say they don't compete"-

But ive never, ever heard of kittens contesting vulak.

So you admit that you haven't been there for all of them but...You've never heard of it so that means it's never happened. Really?


And yes, freedom does compete, thats why they are in ToV with AG all the time going for targets against riot. Im glad kittens has enough members to kill vulak. Maybe they should get those members to compete and learn the mechanics, then they can have a say in creating the rules for the competition, involving said mechanics.

So Freedom AND AG compete, but not Freedom alone, like I just said. And it's pretty clear that a guild that can kill a mob you can't knows the mechanics so...Not sure why you're trying to argue that.

[Ennewi]

And yes, freedom does compete, thats why they are in ToV with AG all the time going for targets against riot. Im glad kittens has enough members to kill vulak. Maybe they should get those members to compete and learn the mechanics, then they can have a say in creating the rules for the competition, involving said mechanics.

In the same vein of passive aggressiveness, one could also say, "I'm sorry Freedom doesn't have enough members to kill vulak alone. Maybe they should get more members to compete on their own? Than they can have a say in creating rules for the competition, involving said guilds."

[Dreenk317]

I said "another guild" not me, I know you didn't threaten me and never said you did. You're making that up entirely.


Oh, i didnt realize you werent talking about your own guild. But that doesnt mean i made it up completely. Nice try.


Okay so you probably would do the respectable thing and say "So I'm probably not the best to say they don't compete"-


ya.... I believe thats what that sentence is inferring...


So you admit that you haven't been there for all of them but...You've never heard of it so that means it's never happened. Really?


I didnt say it had never happened. I feel I made it fairly clear that that meant, to the best of my knowledge, it hasnt happened. But you keep putting words in my mouth. If you have proof saying otherwise, show me.


So Freedom AND AG compete, but not Freedom alone, like I just said. And it's pretty clear that a guild that can kill a mob you can't knows the mechanics so...Not sure why you're trying to argue that.

Yup, you said it, FREEDOM and AG COMPETE. Im guessing your in Riot, because you are cheerleading kittens hard, and are really hung up on the fact that Freedom isnt killing things solo. And I dont know why you think im in a guild that cant kill vulak. But ok, cant control what you think. Rest assured, my guild is also capable of solo killing vulak. But can, has, and will kill it while competing for FTE. Still have yet to see anyone saying kittens has gotten a competitive vulak kill, let alone an FTE. Not that I think that should be the barrier to entry, but they seem very proud of their ability to kill vulak, and think that competing isnt a factor, so lets see them prove its not a factor for them.

[Ripqozko]

This thread is toxic.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Coming from the queen of toxic that means nothing

[Ripqozko]

Coming from the queen of toxic that means nothing

Toxicity

[Ennewi]

Yup, you said it, FREEDOM and AG COMPETE. Im guessing your in Riot, because you are cheerleading kittens hard, and are really hung up on the fact that Freedom isnt killing things solo. And I dont know why you think im in a guild that cant kill vulak. But ok, cant control what you think. Rest assured, my guild is also capable of solo killing vulak. But can, has, and will kill it while competing for FTE. Still have yet to see anyone saying kittens has gotten a competitive vulak kill, let alone an FTE. Not that I think that should be the barrier to entry, but they seem very proud of their ability to kill vulak, and think that competing isnt a factor, so lets see them prove its not a factor for them.

Best chance of that happening is when the players who caused this three guild suspension prove that abiding by the rules is factor to them. The barrier of entry previously hasn't revolved around skill or determination, but community. Is a pile of pixels worth a larger pile of petitions?

[Xulia]

Oh, i didnt realize you werent talking about your own guild. But that doesnt mean i made it up completely. Nice try.

Suuure...

I didnt say it had never happened. I feel I made it fairly clear that that meant, to the best of my knowledge, it hasnt happened. But you keep putting words in my mouth. If you have proof saying otherwise, show me.

ive never, ever heard of kittens contesting vulak

You literally just advocated that it never happened.

Yup, you said it, FREEDOM and AG COMPETE.

As one raiding entity, not separate* You're leaving that out and it's important to remember. So which targets does Freedom compete for alone?

Im guessing your in Riot, because you are cheerleading kittens hard, and are really hung up on the fact that Freedom isnt killing things solo.

I am, you can click my signature and see for yourself. It's right there and I've not hidden that fact at any time. I am an ex-AG member as well that holds the members and leadership of AG in high regard and have continued to have solely positive interactions with them. I don't get how saying someone should have a voice is cheerleading but it's clear you don't want anyone outside of the banned having a voice despite the fact that the rules affect them.

And I dont know why you think im in a guild that cant kill vulak.

Are you in Freedom? Has Freedom solo killed Vulak? This is not meant as disrespect, and I am not hiding any ulterior slight, I am meaning this as a genuine pair of questions. If you can, then I rescind my statement and apologize. If not, then based on objective evidence your statement isn't true.

[xdrcfrx]

Do you have any examples of Kittens attempting competitive targets? As in - the raid mob is up and more than 1 guild is going for it? Choosing not to compete with competitive targets excludes you from having a say creating competitive rules, especially if you don't even have a full grasp on the rules/mechanics/meta of being competitive.

KWSM often contests Aary -> to the right side, on quakes as well as natural respawn. I believe some time in the last month or two, we snaked an Aary out from AG / F. We were literally all up in the aary hall together the last server reset before the suspension. AG / F came and leapfrogged us on Fesh, but we got Dagarn (+1 drake - an aggressive engage for us). Obviously, given the number of times they've followed us and then leapfrogged to get FTE, AG / F must consider us at least competitive enough that they don't feel like they can leave mobs that are in our path, and still have them available for too long.

The further out from quakes we get, the less we usually do that as we just don't have the people/inclination to sock those timers are they get more and more spread out. We approach things somewhat differently, but don't mistake our choosing when we want to compete as an inability or unwillingness to do so. We just try to optimize our time spent.

It won't be long before you're moving the goalposts even further, saying "Only guilds that do a 6-guard Vulak engage deserve any say in the raid rules!" That is absurd. We all raid here, to one degree or another. The server enforced rules affect all of us, since we all have to abide by them. To be frank - even if we only contested outdoor Kunark dragons we should have a voice in the design and implementation of new rules. Stalling is a relevant factor on the Sev and Gore pulls. Faydedar is still an FTE mob that would lock us out of other content until it's dead.

Kittens doesn't need to also be suspended in order to deserve a voice in that process. The suspension is the punishment for the guilds that have acted so poorly as to cause an entire breakdown of the raid scene in the GM's eyes. Why should KWSM, who have not acted in this fashion, also be subject to that punishment?

[Dreenk317]

Suuure...





You literally just advocated that it never happened.



As one raiding entity, not separate* You're leaving that out and it's important to remember. So which targets does Freedom compete for alone?



I am, you can click my signature and see for yourself. It's right there and I've not hidden that fact at any time. I am an ex-AG member as well that holds the members and leadership of AG in high regard and have continued to have solely positive interactions with them. I don't get how saying someone should have a voice is cheerleading but it's clear you don't want anyone outside of the banned having a voice despite the fact that the rules affect them.



Are you in Freedom? Has Freedom solo killed Vulak? This is not meant as disrespect, and I am not hiding any ulterior slight, I am meaning this as a genuine pair of questions. If you can, then I rescind my statement and apologize. If not, then based on objective evidence your statement isn't true.

clearly your reading comprehension is in question. And clearly there is no point in arguing with you. So im done. Good luck on continuing to make Riot look they have never done anything wrong and AG is the bad guy.

[Xulia]

clearly your reading comprehension is in question. And clearly there is no point in arguing with you. So im done. Good luck on continuing to make Riot look they have never done anything wrong and AG is the bad guy.


I am an ex-AG member as well that holds the members and leadership of AG in high regard and have continued to have solely positive interactions with them.

If your recourse in losing is to accuse the opposite argument of having poor reading comprehension, I'll take that as a concession. But it's also disingenuous considering I just told you I have nothing but positive interactions with AG, and you think I'm trying to make AG look bad. I guess you're right about one thing:

cant control what you think.

[Dreenk317]

If your recourse in losing is to accuse the opposite argument of having poor reading comprehension, I'll take that as a concession. But it's also disingenuous considering I just told you I have nothing but positive interactions with AG, and you think I'm trying to make AG look bad. I guess you're right about one thing:

You have repeatedly asked me questions, that are answered in my previous posts. And put words in my mouth, making me think that yes, your reading comprehensions an issue with this argument.

[Xulia]

You have repeatedly asked me questions, that are answered in my previous posts. And put words in my mouth, making me think that yes, your reading comprehensions an issue with this argument.

You've resorted to insults in a thread about addressing toxic behavior. That's really all that needs to be said.

[Toomuch]

So, the topic of this thread is "[Serious] Lets talk Top raiding guilds and their behavior"

How does everyone feel like they have behaved in this thread?

[Grapeape]

Why should the people who play by the rules and go out of their way to treat people with respect and fairness have to join in on a raid ban to be considered relevant? The fact that kittens activity stayed out of the cluster fuck that is tov and chose to not be a part of the problem while still getting down dragons is more than enough reason to include them on server wide raid rule changes

The issue is that anyone not banned is incentivized to drag out any talks that could end that ban. Outside of a quake these 3 guilds kill the vast majority of raid targets. During this ban those mobs are going to the un-banned, obviously. It's irrefutable that those un-banned benefit from the "Toxic 3" being out of the picture for as long as possible. It's not a matter punishment. It's a matter of conflict of interest.

[Clazxiss]

The issue is that anyone not banned is incentivized to drag out any talks that could end that ban. Outside of a quake these 3 guilds kill the vast majority of raid targets. During this ban those mobs are going to the un-banned, obviously. It's irrefutable that those un-banned benefit from the "Toxic 3" being out of the picture for as long as possible. It's not a matter punishment. It's a matter of conflict of interest.

You blew my mind just now. I had not considered the non-banned fanning the forum flames of disaster! Further proof why instances should be made available on these beta servers! Let Green be the pure EQ experience that hardcores so brazenly crave!

[Jeni]

I don't see anyone annoyed at the behavior of the top guilds as fanning flames. Just like the staff the majority of the player base is fed up with this nonsense. If the top guilds have to sit in timeout because they can't play nicely then that is on them and has nothing to do with the rest of the server.

[Dreenk317]

I don't see anyone annoyed at the behavior of the top guilds as fanning flames. Just like the staff the majority of the player base is fed up with this nonsense. If the top guilds have to sit in timeout because they can't play nicely then that is on them and has nothing to do with the rest of the server.

If it has nothing to do with the rest of the server. Why is the rest of the server insisting they should have a say in how the top 3 are settling this?

[Dreenk317]

You've resorted to insults in a thread about addressing toxic behavior. That's really all that needs to be said.

Criticizing your reading comprehension is not insulting you. Reading comprehension is a skill, not everyone is good at everything. There are very smart and capable people that have horrible reading comprehension.

[JackofSpade]

if other guilds want major input on new raid rules, they should join in the raid target ban that the other raiding guilds are experiencing

[Xulia]

Criticizing your reading comprehension is not insulting you. Reading comprehension is a skill, not everyone is good at everything. There are very smart and capable people that have horrible reading comprehension.

So now we don’t want to talk about Freedom’s inability to solo kill targets they’re making rules for, but instead how you telling me I have poor reading comprehension isn’t an insult?

You never answered if Freedom solo killed Vulak.

[Xulia]

if other guilds want major input on new raid rules, they should join in the raid target ban that the other raiding guilds are experiencing

If a guild can’t complete all raid targets on their own they should not have a say in the rules that affect them.

[Ennewi]

if other guilds want major input on new raid rules, they should join in the raid target ban that the other raiding guilds are experiencing

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01639625.2016.1177390

[Dreenk317]

If a guild can’t complete all raid targets on their own they should not have a say in the rules that affect them.

Again, this is the only thing you seem to actually care about. That freedom is involved in this, yet you dont think they can kill anything solo. Well, im sorry, but that is not at all up to you. The GM's have made it very clear that only freedom, ag, and riot are a part of the agreement ban, as ill call it.

The fact that freedom and ag ally together for kills, does not mean freedom isn't competing. You think I care if riot allies with kittens? Not at all. So why is this such a big sticking point? And I never said freedom solo killed vulak, ever. I did say they have been a part of competitive vulaks.

And im sorry my earlier comment offended you. I was simply trying to point out that you are both asking me questions that were already answered, and accusing me of saying things I didnt.

[Dreenk317]

Also, none of this seems helpful toward resolving the issue at hand

[Duckwalk]

Have you considered that it might be in Riot/AG/Freedom's interest to have Kittens or other guilds bound by the same rules as they are? By denying Kittens and other raiding guilds the chance at any imput in this aren't you just guaranteeing a situation that incentivizes people / guilds being as disruptive as possible until the guides step in, ban everyone again, and THEN include them in negotiations?

Also, L-O-L at the insinsuation that Kittens are bad faith negotiatiors in this thing. Some people just live in an alternate reality I guess.

[Ripqozko]

Have you considered that it might be in Riot/AG/Freedom's interest to have Kittens or other guilds bound by the same rules as they are? By denying Kittens and other raiding guilds the chance at any imput in this aren't you just guaranteeing a situation that incentivizes people / guilds being as disruptive as possible until the guides step in, ban everyone again, and THEN include them in negotiations?

Also, L-O-L at the insinsuation that Kittens are bad faith negotiatiors in this thing. Some people just live in an alternate reality I guess.

If they are making server rules you would be bound if you wanted or not. Player agreements you wouldn't be. They want server rules as a backup incase player agreements fail for whatever reason. I'm not saying if it's right or wrong but GM wants them to hash it , not like it's much choice.

[Xulia]

The fact that freedom and ag ally together for kills, does not mean freedom isn't competing. You think I care if riot allies with kittens? Not at all. So why is this such a big sticking point? And I never said freedom solo killed vulak, ever. I did say they have been a part of competitive vulak

Except we don’t ally with Kittens in every target because we can take down targets like AOW, Tunare, and Vulak alone. Freedom can’t. And the fact that they’re being given a say in how fights they can’t complete as one guild is the problem; that means Freedom is only getting a say in this because they’ve been that much of an issue and not because they’re competitive as a single entity. You’re just loud.

[Duckwalk]

If they are making server rules you would be bound if you wanted or not. Player agreements you wouldn't be. They want server rules as a backup incase player agreements fail for whatever reason. I'm not saying if it's right or wrong but GM wants them to hash it , not like it's much choice.

We'll see how that plays out. My understanding is Riot/Ag/Freedom are making rules between themselves to reduced the toxicity of server in general. Their exclusion of Kittens and everyone else in the process by defintion means those guilds are not bound. Seems like its just going to create more problems in the long run.

[Ripqozko]

We'll see how that plays out. My understanding is Riot/Ag/Freedom are making rules between themselves to reduced the toxicity of server in general. Their exclusion of Kittens and everyone else in the process by defintion means those guilds are not bound. Seems like its just going to create more problems in the long run.

Either way GMs want it this way

[reznor_]

Kittens has been getting stronger and stronger and can tackle almost all the content on the server solo at primetime except maybe Tunare / AoW, it's just that the neckbeard guilds have bigger zergs, especially during the off hours, and have more no-lifers willing to push the boundaries, whereas Kittens follow the rules almost to a fault at times and will concede at the drop of a hat.

The only thing that will fix the current situation is either an enforced rotation on end game content or instancing of end game raid zones, that's really all the can be done, any other solutions have proven to be temporary and become abandoned once the more aggressive neckbeards break off and form new guilds which nullify prior agreements. Its an endless cycle until the GMs / server management decides to finally go with the permanent solutions.

Kittens is strong, we’ve done raids with them in the past and they have some stellar players. However, their interpretation of “competitive” is unique.

[Duckwalk]

Kittens is strong, we’ve done raids with them in the past and they have some stellar players. However, their interpretation of “competitive” is unique.

The only real difference anyone has been able to identify between Kittens and the "raiding guilds" is a refusal to sock natural respawns. Kittens races for mobs late in window. They're right there in the mix taking down NToV mobs on EQ.

Maybe we should re-evaluted this ridiculous idea that "competition" is contigent upon who can stare at an empty screen the longest? It is that idea of competition that has gotten us to a place of 170+ man zergs and "alliances" and eventually bans afterall.

[Ripqozko]

The only real difference anyone has been able to identify between Kittens and the "raiding guilds" is a refusal to sock natural respawns. Kittens races for mobs late in window. They're right there in the mix taking down NToV mobs on EQ.

Maybe we should re-evaluted this ridiculous idea that "competition" is contigent upon who can stare at an empty screen the longest? It is that idea of competition that has gotten us to a place of 170+ man zergs and "alliances" and eventually bans afterall.

I think the issue is you aren’t there week in and out creating petitions. You may think you are competing and I think you guys do awesome. But if you aren’t there creating the petitions and they want to solve this. Then what you think competition is doesn’t matter. All that matters is fixing the issue with the guilds that are present during this sock time you don’t like to be in.

[xdrcfrx]

I think the issue is you aren’t there week in and out creating petitions. You may think you are competing and I think you guys do awesome. But if you aren’t there creating the petitions and they want to solve this. Then what you think competition is doesn’t matter. All that matters is fixing the issue with the guilds that are present during this sock time you don’t like to be in.

If we're there, but not creating petitions, aren't we doing it correctly then? Seems like the overabundance of petitions is why the three guilds were suspended in the first place.

[Ripqozko]

If we're there, but not creating petitions, aren't we doing it correctly then? Seems like the overabundance of petitions is why the three guilds were suspended in the first place.

Probably but like he said, you are there at opportunistic times and quakes not week in and out. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing don’t take it wrong just what GMs are trying to fix.

[Allishia]

Love the casual raid guilds, but be real, you guys are not tracking and being competitive anywhere near the level of riot/ag/freedom. Different leagues and that's all there is to it.

I've spent countless hours on fte engage teams waiting for dragons, don't compare snagging a few spawns on a quake to the effort competitive raiders put in. Most do put in time and earn their loot. Call it neck beard or whatever but I put in time and earned my stuff.

Hope you don't hate me for my opinion but ya it's annoying constantly seeing input from guilds that don't even compete and if tov windows were on weekdays, you wouldn't even be in tov. It's just convenient the quakes have been consistently on weekends for like the last year lol.

Be happy for all the easy free pixels and unlimited attempts at dragons you get while we are banned and shhhh please, thank you :p

This is a very frustrating time for people who play to raid. All I wanna do is tank the stupid dragons!

[xdrcfrx]

Love the casual raid guilds, but be real, you guys are not tracking and being competitive anywhere near the level of riot/ag/freedom. Different leagues and that's all there is to it.

I've spent countless hours on fte engage teams waiting for dragons, don't compare snagging a few spawns on a quake to the effort competitive raiders put in. Most do put in time and earn their loot. Call it neck beard or whatever but I put in time and earned my stuff.

Hope you don't hate me for my opinion but ya it's annoying constantly seeing input from guilds that don't even compete and if tov windows were on weekdays, you wouldn't even be in tov. It's just convenient the quakes have been consistently on weekends for like the last year lol.

Be happy for all the easy free pixels and unlimited attempts at dragons you get while we are banned and shhhh please, thank you :p

This is a very frustrating time for people who play to raid. All I wanna do is tank the stupid dragons!

so then do you not expect those guilds to also abide by the rules that you're suggesting should be created without any of their input? If they're just as bound by the rules as you are, then they should have every right to be part of deciding what those rules are.

so sorry that this is a very frustrating time for you, but telling the people that play the game a different way than you "shhh please" (e.g.: sit down and know your place) is not the most becoming of attitudes.

Get over yourself.

[Dreenk317]

so then do you not expect those guilds to also abide by the rules that you're suggesting should be created without any of their input? If they're just as bound by the rules as you are, then they should have every right to be part of deciding what those rules are.

so sorry that this is a very frustrating time for you, but telling the people that play the game a different way than you "shhh please" (e.g.: sit down and know your place) is not the most becoming of attitudes.

Get over yourself.

No one but the GM's can make rules. The GM's asked AG/F/R to come up with an AGREEMENT that all three could abide by in an attempt to reduce petitions between these three guilds.

The GM's want a server rule to fall back on for guilds that dont join, or end up leaving the agreement. And only the GM's are making those rules. Relax....


And ya, if your not racing for fte, or coth racing for engage, or at the very least actively tracking the spawn. Why should you have input on the agreement that might affect these things? You probably also arent aware of the specific strategies employed, or mechanics of these fights that lead to the surplus of petitions.

Thats like me being not a pilot and feeling I have any sort of right to decide what makes a qualified pilot. Have I ridden in planes? Sure, but that doesnt mean i actually know anything about what it takes to fly one.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Alli, your not the only one who has sat on race lines for 16 hours when the spawn goes late in window... kittens has and will continue to sock targets each week... just because we don't sock ALL of the mobs each week doesn't dimish the weigh of our opinions.

That said... galach asked ag/ f / r to come up with base server rules for guilds to follow outside of rotations that everyone.. repeat everyone have to follow... kittens deserves to have input if we are going to be expected to follow these rules as well

[Ripqozko]

Alli, your not the only one who has sat on race lines for 16 hours when the spawn goes late in window... kittens has and will continue to sock targets each week... just because we don't sock ALL of the mobs each week doesn't dimish the weigh of our opinions.

That said... galach asked ag/ f / r to come up with base server rules for guilds to follow outside of rotations that everyone.. repeat everyone have to follow... kittens deserves to have input if we are going to be expected to follow these rules as well

Vs isn’t tov

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Tov doesn't have race lines? I mean... you can sit at zone in and wait for a coth i guess

[Ripqozko]

Tov doesn't have race lines? I mean... you can sit at zone in and wait for a coth i guess

And they do. Hope this helps.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Your always so helpful... im a little disappointed you didn't finish with "sorry you don't have warder loot"

[Psyborg]

Alli, your not the only one who has sat on race lines for 16 hours when the spawn goes late in window... kittens has and will continue to sock targets each week... just because we don't sock ALL of the mobs each week doesn't dimish the weigh of our opinions.

That said... galach asked ag/ f / r to come up with base server rules for guilds to follow outside of rotations that everyone.. repeat everyone have to follow... kittens deserves to have input if we are going to be expected to follow these rules as well

Any guild that wants a say in what inevitably happens should delete pixels from mobs that popped during the suspension and then agree to be suspended with us. I personally agree that Kittens and Co should have some input, but at the same price we are paying. The issue with doing it any other way is that you would have a vote in the discussions and every reason to prolong this indefinitely. A bit of a conflict of interest there.

[Ripqozko]

Your always so helpful... im a little disappointed you didn't finish with "sorry you don't have warder loot"

It is already known , even I take a break from trolling . I’m not sure why y’all are so outraged , the GMs made the decision what can you do. Just enjoy the raiding you got atm and stop wiping to hosh.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Why do we have to pay a price for a crime we didn't commit?

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Not really outraged tbh... and I wasn't at hosh! Don't blame me!

[Psyborg]

Why do we have to pay a price for a crime we didn't commit?

I explained that already. Conflict of interest.

With that said I would love to invite a few Kittens brass into the Freedom discord and talk about what they would like to see out of new server rules.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Ima be 100% honest with you... im kinda hoping you guys can grow up long enough to get your shit together... I raided 40 hours a week on live for years... I dont know how you people do still do this shit

[Ripqozko]

Ima be 100% honest with you... im kinda hoping you guys can grow up long enough to get your shit together... I raided 40 hours a week on live for years... I dont know how you people do still do this shit

I think folks underestimate how much time it takes too, another month and a lot will burn out. All you gonna do is raid 6x a week now . Hell its day 6 and vp still up.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I dont under estimate raiding at all... or the time involved... ive invested more of my time than I care to admit to it... but I'm also almost 40 with a job and family ( like most kittens ) this shit gets tiresome

[Asteria]

The Answer to our "EQ Problems" (https://youtu.be/gwZAYdHcDtU)

^ This song has 3 things going on in it we all need more of to be healthy, happy human beings/overthinking hairless apes w delusions of grandeur.

1. Go OUTSIDE More!
2. Dance more to loud music
3. Have sex more w a fun and/or sexy consenting adult (While playing good music and/or outside if that is more fun)

This is the solution we all need to have EQ in a well-balanced life. Your gaming will br loads more fun or possibly even unnecessary with these 3 basic and easy steps.

[Ripqozko]

I dont under estimate raiding at all... or the time involved... ive invested more of my time than I care to admit to it... but I'm also almost 40 with a job and family ( like most kittens ) this shit gets tiresome

So why worry about what they do, nothing GMs will pass is gonna hurt y’all. You do you and enjoy the mobs. They ain’t just gonna make some rule to screw you. They ain’t worried about you cause you are 40 and have a family. They are worried about those in tov weekly that cause shit.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

So why worry about what they do, nothing GMs will pass is gonna hurt y’all. You do you and enjoy the mobs. They ain’t just gonna make some rule to screw you. They ain’t worried about you cause you are 40 and have a family. They are worried about those in tov weekly that cause shit.


Because we will be in tov and be subject to those same rules... we might not be there every.single.day. but we will be there

[Ripqozko]

Because we will be in tov and be subject to those same rules... we might not be there every.single.day. but we will be there

GMs ain’t here to screw you relax, everything passes through them. Work on hosh. Trazzle maybe on today.

[Psyborg]

Ima be 100% honest with you... im kinda hoping you guys can grow up long enough to get your shit together... I raided 40 hours a week on live for years... I dont know how you people do still do this shit

I mean, it’s a game man. We all play it for different reasons and each of us finds enjoyment in varying ways. Trying to outstrategize, or getting outstrategized ourselves, is what keeps me playing here. If I wasn’t competing here I’d be playing PUBG or CSGO for the same reasons. There’s more animosity than there needs to be for sure. You’ll get no disagreement with me there.

As for putting in 40 hours per week raiding, its not really necessary outside of a handful of folks on p99 since most targets are engaged within 15 minutes of spawning.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I'm not keyed lol... wtb PS MQ... also I'm not in a rush to do VP... after spending fucking months in it on live... im not in a rush to go back

[Ripqozko]

I'm not keyed lol... wtb PS MQ... also I'm not in a rush to do VP... after spending fucking months in it on live... im not in a rush to go back

Slacker

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I would never put that much time in on p99 lolol... 40 hours a week was 20 years ago when we figured out how to do these fights

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I really, really am... someone let me throw plat at a PS so I dont have to farm it... that camp is aids

[Ripqozko]

I would never put that much time in on p99 lolol... 40 hours a week was 20 years ago when we figured out how to do these fights

Vp doesn’t take long to key for, you could be the reason they stop wiping to hosh. Don’t be selfish.

[Psyborg]

Because we will be in tov and be subject to those same rules... we might not be there every.single.day. but we will be there

The only server rules so far I’ve seen that would screw smaller guilds have been proposed by Riot, to be quite frank. Being forced to tank all living guards or a race to be the first guild to kill a mob favors larger Zerg forces. I understand that Kittens holds some animosity towards freedom right now, but being given a whole hour to kill a mob once you are the first to engage it heavily favors smaller, more casual guilds. I think we would see more common ground than not when it comes to raid server rules.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Vp doesn’t take long to key for, you could be the reason they stop wiping to hosh. Don’t be selfish.


... I offered to run a bot.. does that count?

[Xulia]

Ima be 100% honest with you... im kinda hoping you guys can grow up long enough to get your shit together... I raided 40 hours a week on live for years... I dont know how you people do still do this shit

Middle of a pandemic, working 40+ hours each week, raiding on EQ was a something really fun and social I could do safely that I was familiar with. I love yapping with the other guildies and competing as well as learning more each time about how much goes into planning these engagements. Also my daughter loves getting to see the different dragons. Her favorite is Nevederia (https://wiki.project1999.com/File:Npc_lady_nevederia.png) because she "has a pretty smile and red eyes".

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

The only server rules so far I’ve seen that would screw smaller guilds have been proposed by Riot, to be quite frank. Being forced to tank all living guards or a race to be the first guild to kill a mob favors larger Zerg forces. I understand that Kittens holds some animosity towards freedom right now, but being given a whole hour to kill a mob once you are the first to engage it heavily favors smaller, more casual guilds. I think we would see more common ground than not when it comes to raid server rules.


I agree on common ground 100%.. ive read the proposals and I like AGs by far the best... are you talking about riots PoG proposal?

[Ripqozko]

... I offered to run a bot.. does that count?

Maybe but bots are usually shit geared

[Psyborg]

I agree on common ground 100%.. ive read the proposals and I like AGs by far the best... are you talking about riots PoG proposal?

Specifically referring to POG and ToV server fallback rules.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I kinda agree with their PoG proposal... to claim PoG you should have your raid mobilized and going... it promotes socking by a large force but thats kinda PoG isnt it?

FTE lock outs promote small active sockers over anything imo... when you can have a group or two of active sockers get FTE and basically hold a mob till more log on your promoting the type of neckbeard behavior that has gotten the server to this point

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

But thats my opinion on it.. and opinions are like ass holes..etc etc etc

[Ripqozko]

I kinda agree with their PoG proposal... to claim PoG you should have your raid mobilized and going... it promotes socking by a large force but thats kinda PoG isnt it?

FTE lock outs promote small active sockers over anything imo... when you can have a group or two of active sockers get FTE and basically hold a mob till more log on your promoting the type of neckbeard behavior that has gotten the server to this point

Know how I can tell you weren’t here in 2017. Cause small guilds did great with lockouts. Main reason rustle was able to survive. We had 1-2 runners and that’s all ya need.

https://youtu.be/HITM6abtKVw

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I wasn't here in 2017! Well I think I had just started.. I didn't hear about this place till 2016 I think.. ( edited cause I sounded like a hick )

[Ripqozko]

I wasn't here in 2017! Well I think I had just started.. I had never heard of this server till like 2016

Lockouts helped casual guilds more then anything .

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

People on the forums say that... people in game say different... I can only base my opinion on how the system sounds on paper... and on paper it favors those who poop in socks

[Psyborg]

I kinda agree with their PoG proposal... to claim PoG you should have your raid mobilized and going... it promotes socking by a large force but thats kinda PoG isnt it?

FTE lock outs promote small active sockers over anything imo... when you can have a group or two of active sockers get FTE and basically hold a mob till more log on your promoting the type of neckbeard behavior that has gotten the server to this point

Regarding lockouts, the problem here is that during non-quake situations you aren’t winning any ToV mobs without a sock force as it is. That pretty much leaves out Kittens already so not much changed there. During quakes though Kittens just needs to get an FTE on any mob and then they will have a specified time to kill that mob unfettered. During the last quake I believe it was Kittens that was engaged on Aary while FRAG were on Eashen. Eashen dies to us, Kittens wipes on Aary and then immediately loses it it because we need it out of the way to progress. With an FTE lockout Kittens would have had a full hour to kill Aary without fear of losing him. Kittens would have recovered from the wipe and killed him.

I don’t think FTE lockouts are perfect. I would prefer if we avoid them and just continue as we have been personally. However, they will reduce petitions because you won’t see two guilds trying to engage the same mob.

[Ripqozko]

People on the forums say that... people in game say different... I can only base my opinion on how the system sounds on paper... and on paper it favors those who poop in socks

Everything favors those that spend more time that's reality . But lockouts gave folks time to get there and uninterrupted while they took their shot. You would have to adjust for current rooted dragons but 3 hour lockout anyone could kill things. All it takes is someone on line few hours during windows no one says you have to sock 16 hours , rustle never did that and we got plenty.

[Psyborg]

People on the forums say that... people in game say different... I can only base my opinion on how the system sounds on paper... and on paper it favors those who poop in socks

Outside of a quake, name a ToV target that Kittens can engage and kill before another guild. Without a full park and sock it just isn’t possible. Now, switch this up to FTE lockouts. Kittens only needs 1 person willing to sock to give them a fighting chance. Win the race and Kittens gets 1 hour to mobilize and engage that mob.

Being completely honest here, the only chance Kittens has against other raiding forces right now is the latter unless they happen to catch a smaller ToV target that pops while larger guilds are after a bigger fish. But even then lockouts would help here because time is no longer the primary danger in killing the mob.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I don’t think FTE lockouts are perfect. I would prefer if we avoid them and just continue as we have been personally. However, they will reduce petitions because you won’t see two guilds trying to engage the same mob.


I agree 100% that would stop the issue... after the FTE goes out


It does nothing up until that point... and it does nothing to change the attitudes of the player base... the later is the biggest problem this server faces

[Ripqozko]

I agree 100% that would stop the issue... after the FTE goes out


It does nothing up until that point... and it does nothing to change the attitudes of the player base... the later is the biggest problem this server faces

Name a method to get that fte besides rotations that would be better? They don't want rotations . Lockouts is next best thing.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Name a method to get that fte besides rotations that would be better? They don't want rotations . Lockouts is next best thing.


I dont want rotations.. well outside of PoG, RW and ST golems... FFA everything else or this game is boring as fuck

[Ripqozko]

I dont want rotations.. well outside of PoG, RW and ST golems... FFA everything else or this game is boring as fuck

So you are good then who cares what they decide won't affect you.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

And I dont really care about the PoG rotation... thats yalls problem... fuck that clear

[Psyborg]

I dont want rotations.. well outside of PoG, RW and ST golems... FFA everything else or this game is boring as fuck

I can only say that Freedom agrees here. CT and Fear golems are a good fit here too potentially. Fear golems are obviously already rotated.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

CT would be a good fit for rotations as well I agree

[Psyborg]

CT would be a good fit for rotations as well I agree

So these are the type of common grounds we can find if we talk it out. The issue I had in the UN was that it was difficult to make headway with one guild without getting jumped on by another, and I fully and freely admit that some of our members were just as aggressive here.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

The rules do effect us even if we are in ToV on quakes only... unless these rules are for natural respawns only... and there will be a second set for quakes

[Baler]

Rotations kill server population. On paper it looks great, oh boy a fair chance at some raid loot. But in practice it hurts the servers population.

It's not the answer, TAKP does rotations and raiders only log in when it's their turn to kill a target.

New players will have a harder time finding group because the overall pop will be lower.
There are multiple bad endings to a rotation this is just one of them.
I damn well know some of you will be on here making fun of p99 if it suddenly dropped to 200-500 avg pop. Saying things like 'dead server' but you're the ones who killed it. Disgusting.

ps. I use to be for rotations until I saw the affect they have on a servers population. I can't say this enough.

---
TL/DR- If you want a rotation, play a single player game. It will be the same experience.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Rotations kill server population. On paper it looks great, oh boy a fair chance at some raid loot. But in practice it hurts the servers population.

It's not the answer, TAKP does rotations and raiders only log in when it's their turn to kill a target.

New players will have a harder time finding group because the overall pop will be lower. There are multiple bad endings to a rotation this is just one of them.

ps. I use to be for rotations until I saw the affect they have on a servers population. I can't say this enough.


I'm not arguing the point but do you have data to back up the stance?

Thats pretty much how p99 is now is why I ask... pop days have much higher numbers than others

[Baler]

Thats pretty much how p99 is now is why I ask... pop days have much higher numbers than others

That is not how P99 is now. Multiple guilds log in to try and FTE for a target in a competitive and large scale fashion. You could have 200+ people in 1 zone on p99 across multiple guilds.

With a rotation you won't even have half that number. There is no reason for any other guild to be online if it's not their turn to kill the target.

---
I agree to a point, there are some people who play p99 that only log on for raiding. But they do not factor into the best solution formula because they fall into the rotation flaws category as well.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

I mean... there's the game...

At most we would lose 160ish? On pop days? I think that's how many rito or ag/f have

I'm against serverwide rotations btw

[Psyborg]

Rotations also kill the need for a lot of the raiding infrastructure that requires people to log in during the week. Alts/bots, idols, scepters, plat for recharges, etc. All that stuff goes away or is largely made redundant with rotations. I wish Riot would just drop that altogether from their proposal.

[Dreenk317]

The rules do effect us even if we are in ToV on quakes only... unless these rules are for natural respawns only... and there will be a second set for quakes

AG/F/R are NOT making new server RULES, they are coming up with an agreement that all three can abide by. the GM's are making new server rules, in case people pull out of the agreement, and for those that dont want to join. And the way you say that makes me feel like you think you shouldnt be held to the same rules , in the same zone, as everyone else in said zone is. Why is this? Because you didnt help create them? So does that mean you feel you shouldnt have to abide by the PnP? Or were you a part of making those rules too? How about the other raid rules? Do you not follow them because your input was not taken into account?

ONLY THE GM'S ARE MAKING RULES, NONE OF THE GUILDS ARE, RELAX.

[Baler]

Technically your guild agreeing to a player agreement is binding.
So in a sense, they could be seen as rules. Once the staff put a player agreement in place.

But they are not set in stone like the rules and pnp are. Rules and the PNP are the backbone. These player agreements are a requirement for adults to play nicely together.

[Dreenk317]

Technically your guild agreeing to a player agreement is binding.
So in a sense, they could be seen as rules. Once the staff put a player agreement in place.

But they are not set in stone like the rules and pnp are. Rules and the PNP are the backbone. These player agreements are a requirement for adults to play nicely together.

its been made clear, i feel, that the GM's are not holding you to the agreement after youve entered it though. As in, you can remove yourself from it with proper notice. And, no guild other than AG/F/R has to agree to this agreement that they are coming up with.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Technically your guild agreeing to a player agreement is binding.
So in a sense, they could be seen as rules. Once the staff put a player agreement in place.

But they are not set in stone like the rules and pnp are. Rules and the PNP are the backbone. These player agreements are a requirement for adults to play nicely together.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

They are also coming up with new rules that will be in place when these rotations and agreements inevitably fail... those are what we want a say in

[Ripqozko]

They are also coming up with new rules that will be in place when these rotations and agreements inevitably fail... those are what we want a say in

You voted for Biden

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

You voted for Biden

I'm voting for a meteor

[Dreenk317]

They are also coming up with new rules that will be in place when these rotations and agreements inevitably fail... those are what we want a say in

No, the GM's are. Are they using the proposals to help them come up with a server rule? Yes. But the GM's are making the rules. They said so.

And just to reiterate. ONLY AG/Freedom/Riot have to agree to whatever proposal they come up with as far as server agreements go. No one else does. So that whole "being bound to a server agreement we didn't come up with" argument, is moot.

This is why the GM's are also changing/creating new rules. So that even if the agreement falls apart. We don't descend back into what we currently have.

[xdrcfrx]

No, the GM's are. Are they using the proposals to help them come up with a server rule? Yes. But the GM's are making the rules. They said so.

And just to reiterate. ONLY AG/Freedom/Riot have to agree to whatever proposal they come up with as far as server agreements go. No one else does. So that whole "being bound to a server agreement we didn't come up with" argument, is moot.

This is why the GM's are also changing/creating new rules. So that even if the agreement falls apart. We don't descend back into what we currently have.

Right, but they're asking AG / F / R for input on those fallback rules, also. That should be a conversation they're having with everyone.

[Dreenk317]

Right, but they're asking AG / F / R for input on those fallback rules, also. That should be a conversation they're having with everyone.

Why? The three main guilds that compete and lawyerquest the rules are being asked for feedback. Probably because they have the best understanding of the mechanics of the encounters in question. Lets take PoG for instance. Which, as far as i know, is the only proposed RULE change so far. When was the last time kittens or DB or TSS or Aegis did PoG? Why do you not trust the GM's to come up with something fair for everyone?

[xdrcfrx]

If it were only the GM's drafting, deciding, and implementing these rules that'd be fine, if less than ideal. The issue is that they're seeking the input / suggestions of some, but not all, of the people that are going to be bound by those rules. I would also suggest to you that the guilds not part of this discussion understand more of the mechanics behind the encounters than you are giving credit for. Everquest isn't exactly rocket surgery, the mechanics aren't *that* complicated.

Can't speak for TSS / DB / AEGIS - I feel like TSS was in there recently on a team up. KWSM hasn't done growth in a fairly long time - without being able to schedule in advance we'd probably have a pretty rough go of it, so tunare in the no-rotation era is not usually a high priority. Basically would need to be a weekend afternoon-into-primetime kind of raid, I think, due to how long the clear would likely take.

That said, I think we *could* conceivably get it done, given the right circumstances. And in fairness, I think it was totally appropriate that in AG's proposal, KWSM isn't initially included in the suggested rotation. The rotation part of the proposal included a mechanism for guilds not currently part of the rotation to be added, which I think is about as much as can be asked. On this same point, I appreciate that AG *did* include KWSM in it's proposed ring war rotation, which is also appropriate as we have completed many solo ring wars at this point.

However, even with all of that said - server-enforced fallback rules that are going to be applicable against everyone regardless of any pro-active agreement by those bound should be open to discussion with everyone, and should be seeking input from everyone. Rotation agreements ought to as well, since the server should be seeking to get buy-in, even from guilds not currently owning a slot, to help promote the stability of the agreements so that they last.

[Ripqozko]

If it were only the GM's drafting, deciding, and implementing these rules that'd be fine, if less than ideal. The issue is that they're seeking the input / suggestions of some, but not all, of the people that are going to be bound by those rules. I would also suggest to you that the guilds not part of this discussion understand more of the mechanics behind the encounters than you are giving credit for. Everquest isn't exactly rocket surgery, the mechanics aren't *that* complicated.

Can't speak for TSS / DB / AEGIS - I feel like TSS was in there recently on a team up. KWSM hasn't done growth in a fairly long time - without being able to schedule in advance we'd probably have a pretty rough go of it, so tunare in the no-rotation era is not usually a high priority. Basically would need to be a weekend afternoon-into-primetime kind of raid, I think, due to how long the clear would likely take.

That said, I think we *could* conceivably get it done, given the right circumstances. And in fairness, I think it was totally appropriate that in AG's proposal, KWSM isn't initially included in the suggested rotation. The rotation part of the proposal included a mechanism for guilds not currently part of the rotation to be added, which I think is about as much as can be asked. On this same point, I appreciate that AG *did* include KWSM in it's proposed ring war rotation, which is also appropriate as we have completed many solo ring wars at this point.

However, even with all of that said - server-enforced fallback rules that are going to be applicable against everyone regardless of any pro-active agreement by those bound should be open to discussion with everyone, and should be seeking input from everyone. Rotation agreements ought to as well, since the server should be seeking to get buy-in, even from guilds not currently owning a slot, to help promote the stability of the agreements so that they last.

Unless the mechanics in VP, 4/6 still alive . Wru trazzle

[xdrcfrx]

Unless the mechanics in VP, 4/6 still alive . Wru trazzle

Less mechanics and more lack of people with experience and proper faction. Can't just rely on wooly to do it.

For better or worse, most of the time it's exceedingly difficult to get any kind of practice on these encounters to learn the pulls and the tactics to kill.

We're trying though!

[Ripqozko]

Less mechanics and more lack of people with experience and proper faction. Can't just rely on wooly to do it.

For better or worse, most of the time it's exceedingly difficult to get any kind of practice on these encounters to learn the pulls and the tactics to kill.

We're trying though!

You already did sw and Hosh no one needs faction now, faction trainup is only needed for them.

[xdrcfrx]

you shoulda come in with TSS last night for hosh!

[Ripqozko]

you shoulda come in with TSS last night for hosh!

I only play Monday’s usually or I woulda, play other games mostly.

[MarauderOHHYEAH]

Hosh took a bit longer than it should have... but see invis/ fear wurms liter the train up

[Ripqozko]

Hosh took a bit longer than it should have... but see invis/ fear wurms liter the train up

Pre clear see invis and repop them as non, y'all have infinite time