At what level do SK & Warrior dps diverge?

[radbeard]

Thinking about making a duo with a friend. He will play as a shaman and I will do SK or Warrior (I already have a monk, i know).

I know warrior dps is actually decent and SK dps is actually potato. But at what level does this gap become noticeable? Knights still get good 2handers + double attack.

I assume we will only play to a max of lvl 50. Is there a meaningful difference in this level range? Should I just play SK because spells are more fun then auto attack? Or will the 30s and 40s be too painful?

Thanks

[Baler]

Hybrid DPS is awful until the end of velious, then it's okay but not warrior dps.

admittedly you'll have more fun on an SK. But remember on green, the hybrid exp penalty is in place until the beginning of velious. On my blue Shm I duo'd with many hybrids and their spells definitely made things smoother.

[radbeard]

we are going to play on blue with about a 20k budget. So at lvl 40 with decent gear, am I going to see a huge difference in dps?

[Baler]

On blue, go with SK. FD will be a blessing.

If you want to do dps roll a rogue or monk. I wouldn't polarize your focus on how much dps a warrior or sk can do. Unless you plan on getting BiS raid loot. Enjoy the journey.

[radbeard]

I think raiding is boring AF so I don't plan on getting that. Like I said we will probably only play till at most 50. Just before we played as a Paladin/Bard duo. WHich was fun, but once you get into the high 30s it really started to slow down because it took so long to kill things.

[Baler]

A Shadowknight buffed by a shaman with a solid 2h will put out some good dps. Combined with all the utility the SK brings over a warrior. You can break into camps easier. Both classes can have a pet out for additional dps. Combined with DoTs it won't feel so sloggish like pal/brd.

I used this on one of my blue SKs for a long time during velious era. It's inexpensive and when hasted you'll hit like a truck.
https://wiki.project1999.com/Exquisite_Velium_Battle_Axe

sorry im the only one responding so far :|

[radbeard]

yeah I think this is probably the right call. I also already own a heavy velium claidhmore, which is only slightly worse than that. thanks.

[kjs86z]

it'll be slower than warrior but you'll get there just the same

[Snaggles]

It really depends on gear. Often warriors are tanking with proc weapons that aren't the best of the best ratios. The SK can tank normal stuff with any weapon. Normal duo combos the warrior will be higher you're in it for the long haul either way.

At some point, grinding at least, it's less about dps and more about capacity to kill. Being able to pull, snare, and fear (if needed) along with a shaman is a great combo. As a warrior your kill targets will be more specific since the sham will have to CC the extra targets. Monks are great with shams but a sk can work as well.

[jolanar]

If you only plan on going to 50 it probably won't be very noticeable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A Shaman and Shadowknight combo would be a better duo in most cases. Shamans have pretty good damage already, and Shadowknights can pull way better than warriors because of FD.

I think the better pulling capacity will end up saving more time and mana than the white damage you lose. It takes a lot of mana to CC multiple mobs as a Shaman, especially before you get torpor. This would mean more downtime between kills.

As stated above, if you want more DPS, do Shaman/Monk instead. Monks can tank just fine, and also has good pulling and DPS.

[Penish]

So outside the general information from people that have basically 0 clue about the mechanics of p99. hybrid DPS is horrible. I mean like holy fuck horrible. Roll a warrior or a monk.

Also if you're using anything other than your level 14 shaman root (30 mana) to CC with. Chances are you don't understand what's going on with your shaman anyway.

In a nutshell if you're looking to mow down content and not feel gimped, get that monk or warrior going.

If you want cool spell effects with no dps whatsoever, that SK is gonna rock it.

[radbeard]

one thing people seem to keep ignoring is that I already have a high level monk, i'm not making another. So i'm asking specifically about SK vs Warrior for sub-level 50 with ~20k budget to twink.

I know SK DPS is garbage on post-50 content, but is it very different from warrior at 42?
If both classes are wielding a 32/38 2-hander at lvl 42 is that a huge dps gap? Or are people just responding to how bad SKs DPS is in 51+ content in Velious?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So outside the general information from people that have basically 0 clue about the mechanics of p99. hybrid DPS is horrible. I mean like holy fuck horrible. Roll a warrior or a monk.

Also if you're using anything other than your level 14 shaman root (30 mana) to CC with. Chances are you don't understand what's going on with your shaman anyway.

In a nutshell if you're looking to mow down content and not feel gimped, get that monk or warrior going.

If you want cool spell effects with no dps whatsoever, that SK is gonna rock it.

Insulting people is not an argument, nor does it validate any points you have made:)

When you want to level up, the only thing that matters is kills per hour. DPS is only one factor that determines how many kills per hour you can do, especially in a duo situation where you do not have a truck load of DPS just melting mobs.

A duo Shaman is going to be healing, buffing, debuffing, and damaging. All of that takes time and mana. Even an extra 30 mana per 3 mobs per 48 seconds adds up very quickly when you are doing all of these other things.

You are mistaken that Shamans only use their lowest level root. That is not always a good move, because it is a waste of casting time to keep having to re-root a monster every 48 seconds or so. If you have 3 monsters CCed, that means you need to spend about 8-10 seconds every 48 seconds to re-root, or you will get a break. That means you only have 38 seconds in between root casting to do other things. Shamans tend to be a casting heavy class, with a lot of spells having longer cast times. Boxing yourself in to a shorter cycle of casting reduces a Shaman's effectiveness, and requires them to split their attention much more frequently.

If you pull 3 tough mobs that can chew through your duo quickly, you root AND slow, so you do not take a chunk of damage if root breaks early. If the mobs are magic resistant/higher level as well, you root, malo, and slow. One set of Root, Malo, and Slow at level 34 is Enstill (60 Mana), Malaisement (100 Mana), and Tagar's Insects (125 Mana). That is 285 Mana per mob initially, and 245 mana every three minutes (1 slow and two roots), assuming no resists, until the monsters are dead. That will drain any Shaman quite quickly.

By consistently pulling one mob at a time, a Shaman doesn't even need to cast root (unless you need to stop a monster from running). They can just slow and let you tank the mob down, while doing damage of their own. If you are able to kill 30 monsters per hour, you are saving at least 900-1800 mana per hour on root alone, depending on the root you use, and assuming you do not need to cast it more than once. That means less down time and more killing.

That is why a Warrior is often going to be harder to play with in a duo situation, because your Shaman will need to do a lot more CCing whenever a pull contains multiple monsters. So even though a Warrior will do more damage, the Shaman will do less damage, and have more down time.

one thing people seem to keep ignoring is that I already have a high level monk, i'm not making another. So i'm asking specifically about SK vs Warrior for sub-level 50 with ~20k budget to twink.

I know SK DPS is garbage on post-50 content, but is it very different from warrior at 42?
If both classes are wielding a 32/38 2-hander at lvl 42 is that a huge dps gap? Or are people just responding to how bad SKs DPS is in 51+ content in Velious?

Ah I didn't read the part about you having a monk already, my bad:) On a 20k budget you can buy Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a plethora of great SK weapons for pretty cheap, so you should be fine on DPS. Shadowknights also get a pet and DoTs/Life Tap to help with DPS or reduce how often you need to heal. On top of that, they can fear kite, further reducing how much mana you need to use on healing. This means the Shaman can probably DoT more anyway. As I mentioned above, your melee classes white damage is not really the primary factor in kills per hour when you are duoing. If that was the case, you would actually want to do a Rogue/Shaman combo, where the Shaman tanks and the Rogue backstabs:)

[Danth]

Insulting people is not an argument, nor does it validate any points you have made:)

That guy's a known forum troll (the juvenile handle and profanity should give it away, I think) who seldom adds anything beyond absurd claims and hyperbole.

-------------------------------------------------

On Blue, Paladin and especially Shadow Knight damage isn't nearly so bad as people think because Blue has the upgraded damage tables as well as upgraded 2H weapons. It's distinctly better than Green. At high levels Shadow Knights also gain significant damage from their pets, but the original poster sounds like he may not reach that point and the pets in the level 22-52 range are rather bad.

I do not particularly recommend a Shadow Knight if you plan to stop at circa level 50. I regard the SK class as best at level 60. I feel it has something of a "dead zone" during the middle levels where your character will spend most of its lifespan. It won't have the good pets, the good lifetaps, the good feign spell, or the stronger damage spells. You aren't high enough to use weapons with the better syphon-type effects and Vampiric Embrace is awful at low level. On 20K you won't afford the instant-click invisibility. You don't even get Feign Death until level thirty and even if you do, in truth feign pulling doesn't matter ALL that much at low-mid levels, at least not like it does later on. At this level range it'll mostly feel like a somewhat slower Monk that can carry more cash and (eventually) invis itself. Of the three conventional tank classes I like Paladin best during this level range; the SK does not impress me overmuch during that level range.

-----------------------------------

To answer the original poster's specific question: Autoattack/white damage between the two classes starts to diverge somewhat as warrior dual wield starts to become useful during the 30's, and the warrior pulls ahead a bit more at 50+ as absolute skillcaps come into play. At 60 with Triple attack the Warrior has a fair advantage, although again this is partially mitigated by the SK spells and the pet to a greater extent than is commonly realized. Nonetheless, if you're wanting to deal what feels like "good" damage and particularly if you're used to a monk, a shadow knight is going to feel slow.

Danth

[Penish]

Nerds lol, didn't read the spam. Yeah your hit rates on hybrids are dogshit to the end of velious and beyond. Like I said SK for the cool factor, but with a well played shaman at your side. You'll be crushing mobs at a 3-1 pace on that warrior.

[Snaggles]

Danth always speaking truth :).

I too glossed over the monk part. The main reason to reroll a tank is to be able to play with your friend from an equal place. Definitely a difference experience than powerleveling. Likewise you get to grind up a tank rather than having to solo or PL that.

Rather than thinking about what is best id think about what you want to have in the end. A warrior would make for the most difficult pulling but you can pick your targets and do just fine. Outdoor zones like The Overthere can take you to 50 with easy solo pulls. Goos and Geos are fine after if not wanting to go to like The Hole. Plus it’s always easy enough to add another dps to speed things up or keep it interesting.

A SK/Sham isn’t as quick as the monk/sham but having a legitimate method of snaring (besides sham innoruuk neck) can be very nice. Likewise spell aggro is the main reason knights are fun and extremely useful. Nobody rolls one for dps.

You might even consider a ranger. Outdoor pulling with harmony would be easy. Indoors you still have snare and root plus aggro spells. Tracking, fear animal, two sow classes etc. On a similar gear level they are much more squishy than the other melees (besides bards) but duo content slowed is pretty damn easy.

[Stonewallx39]

Warrior will do substantially more DPS then a SK, buuut we’re comparing against one of the lowest DPS classes. If an SK only does 15dps (let’s say in the 30s) and a warrior does 40% more that’s only 21dps. I mean 6dps is not game breaking.

The fact that your shaman could slow as soon as the mob’s in camp, he can save mana otherwise spent healing and rooting the mob off of himself once he steals aggro from the warrior. This can be put towards more dots/buffs/etc. to make up the damage. With his pet and other tools the shaman will be more than making up for losses from the warrior. Plus with single pulls and escaping deadly situations (feign death + gate) your total time saved will put you over the edge.

Shadow knight is fun in other ways besides big DPS. Warrior is out of control most of the time and has to rely on his group (trust me I know). Warrior will need lower DPS/high aggro proccing weapons to seriously build aggro. Sure if the warrior can keep aggro they’ll do great and you’ll have tons of fun but not having aggro on a warrior is miserable. Yes the shammy can root every mob to help you out but again totally reliant on your group as a warrior. You’lll be able to contribute more with the knight even if it’s not in the form of DPS.

[radbeard]

I appreciate the thought everyone put into this question, including silkymist who, as far as I can tell, made similar points to other people here.

I guess I am slight lean towards SK. Weapons like Ebon mace, or if i wanted to spend a bunch, Shard of Night, seem like they make up for a lot of the dps hit. Combined with snare, FD, and snap aggro it sounds like SK is the better over-all choice.

I would have thought that if I decided to keep playing SK post-50 that is when I would start to really regret the choice but it sounds like from people here that they only get appreciably better, so that is promising.

Thanks again all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate the thought everyone put into this question, including silkymist who, as far as I can tell, made similar points to other people here.

I guess I am slight lean towards SK. Weapons like Ebon mace, or if i wanted to spend a bunch, Shard of Night, seem like they make up for a lot of the dps hit. Combined with snare, FD, and snap aggro it sounds like SK is the better over-all choice.

I would have thought that if I decided to keep playing SK post-50 that is when I would start to really regret the choice but it sounds like from people here that they only get appreciably better, so that is promising.

Thanks again all.

No problem!

SK's definitely get better 50+ as pointed out above. You have access to all of your proc weapons/clickies, the 50-60 spells are substantially better than your 1-49 spells, and if you roll Troll/Iksar, your innate regen goes up way more.

The only time you would really regret rolling a Hybrid class is if you want to Raid, since they don't get to do much on that front. However, your attitude on raiding seems pretty clear, so I doubt you will have any regrets unless you suddenly want to raid tank later down the line:) Even if you do want to raid later, the silver lining is Hybrid gear tends to be cheap, so you can really deck out your toon for much better DPS when you go back to grouping/duoing/soloing.

[Crede]

I appreciate the thought everyone put into this question, including silkymist who, as far as I can tell, made similar points to other people here.

I guess I am slight lean towards SK. Weapons like Ebon mace, or if i wanted to spend a bunch, Shard of Night, seem like they make up for a lot of the dps hit. Combined with snare, FD, and snap aggro it sounds like SK is the better over-all choice.

I would have thought that if I decided to keep playing SK post-50 that is when I would start to really regret the choice but it sounds like from people here that they only get appreciably better, so that is promising.

Thanks again all.

Try to get a reaver at 30. Works in most zones. That plus shaman buffs and you’ll be amazed at your damage output. They’re a much different class in velious with the latest 2h patch and being on warrior damage table.

[Exard3k]

Try to get a reaver at 30. Works in most zones. That plus shaman buffs and you’ll be amazed at your damage output. They’re a much different class in velious with the latest 2h patch and being on warrior damage table.

Reaver Proc doesnt stack with shaman/druid str buff. So I wouldn't recommend getting one in a duo.

[remen]

Reaver Proc doesnt stack with shaman/druid str buff. So I wouldn't recommend getting one in a duo.

You have your weapons confused, Reaver is 40/40 ratio 2hs weapon straight up, it doesn't have a proc. It's a beast weapon but it isn't a magic weap so some mobs it cant hit.

Regarding the dps question between the classes, what a lot of people are forgetting is the power of berserk warrior dps. If y'all are comfortable leaving your warrior in the 30-40% health range, the dps is ridic and not to mention crippling blows are stuns. With a shaman to slow, root, and heal it is very safe to do

SK definitely offers more utility though, so ultimately just think about what would be the most fun to play duo for you and your friend!

[Izmael]

In a duo, melee DPS is just a small part of the picture.

If what counts to you is to be able to efficiently exp by killing mobs with your duo, then many other factors are coming into play.

Ease of travel:
How much time you're going to waste running from one spot to another because the spot you wanted is taken? This happens all the time, everywhere, unless you stick to weird spots.

Ease of CR:
Unless you plan to almost never die, and therefore almost never take any risks, being about to waltz around a place by being able to cast IVU and regular invis (SK), is a game changer. Try to CR your duo from somewhere like undead side Guk on a shaman and a warrior and see how you like your insane warrior DPS over that session.

Ease of pulling:
Monk, SK, Pal, Ranger... all have good options for pulling. Warrior has none. The warrior will kill the single mob down faster, but it will take you 1 hour to get that camp split and recover from the beatings you took while dealing with 4 mobs breaking shamie root all the time.

Ease of killing:
War will just face tank, press autoattack and hope it works. There's nothing else they can do.
Any hybrid has a ton of spells that allow you to be creative to deal with situations.

There are probably a million other factors one can find.


I personally like the SK/Sham duo, but a lot can be said about Monk/Sham as well.
Also if you can get 50k instead of 20k, grab a fungi and pass on all other gear, the game will be so much more fun.

[jolanar]

In a duo, melee DPS is just a small part of the picture.

If what counts to you is to be able to efficiently exp by killing mobs with your duo, then many other factors are coming into play.

Ease of travel:
How much time you're going to waste running from one spot to another because the spot you wanted is taken? This happens all the time, everywhere, unless you stick to weird spots.

Ease of CR:
Unless you plan to almost never die, and therefore almost never take any risks, being about to waltz around a place by being able to cast IVU and regular invis (SK), is a game changer. Try to CR your duo from somewhere like undead side Guk on a shaman and a warrior and see how you like your insane warrior DPS over that session.

Ease of pulling:
Monk, SK, Pal, Ranger... all have good options for pulling. Warrior has none. The warrior will kill the single mob down faster, but it will take you 1 hour to get that camp split and recover from the beatings you took while dealing with 4 mobs breaking shamie root all the time.

Ease of killing:
War will just face tank, press autoattack and hope it works. There's nothing else they can do.
Any hybrid has a ton of spells that allow you to be creative to deal with situations.

There are probably a million other factors one can find.


I personally like the SK/Sham duo, but a lot can be said about Monk/Sham as well.
Also if you can get 50k instead of 20k, grab a fungi and pass on all other gear, the game will be so much more fun.

The beauty of a Shadowknight is the fact that because you can snare AND fear, you can duo well with basically any other class.

SK + Rogue in Dreadlands was some of the fastest easiest exp I've ever had in my 40s considering it was two melee classes.

[Snaggles]

+1 Izmael

Yea a sham melee duo is about ease, not speed. A torp sham can kill damn near anything solo. A melee is basically a upgraded sham pet with pulling skills. Even a pally would be a nice complement.

If you want dps and leveling speed go sham/ench. Charmed pets will put everything else to shame.

[radbeard]

No, i can't more than double the amount i've saved in order to buy a Fungi.

[remen]

Splitting camps is easy with shaman root, SK in this particular duo isn't much different than warrior pulling.

Also, FD isn't that big a deal in a duo, since your shaman cant FD and will need to CR anyways from a wipe. SK spell utility really doesn't synergize very well with a shaman.

I've leveled an SK and a warrior past 50 here, and the dps difference is staggering. I can't overstate how strong berserk dps is, I actually leveled my warrior faster than my monk.

But again, EQ is more about the journey and fun, any melee + shaman duo is strong so just think about what you would enjoy most.

[Snaggles]

A paladin at 45 can use a deepwater helm. I recall it starts at like 110 per cast and caps out at 60 at 125 a cast. That is approximately 11-12hps a second regen (or 66hps a tick). They cost 500p and you can heal up the sham while they canni away. The sham can even cast CHA buffs. A deepwater bp for a jasper (6gold) is almost 3x faster at healing than a DW helm. It heals 12x faster than a fungi. A paladin with a decent amount of CHA can also lull split rooms. I solo'ed mine to 60 on a shoestring budget so yea, add in a shaman and that's damn easy.

Not trying to sway you away from the SK but if you prefer to stun caster NPC's instead of relying on fear it's a good combo with the sham. Plus having a pocket rezzer at 59 is great if you want to venture into some odd places.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, i can't more than double the amount i've saved in order to buy a Fungi.

Yeah you don't really need a fungi. For 20ish thousand plat I would do something like this for an SK if you want to maximize DPS throughout the leveling process based on the damage table limits:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ceremonial_Iksar_Chestplate - ~10k
https://wiki.project1999.com/Guard_Captain%60s_Mallet - ~1.5k (Main damage weapon from 1-19)
https://wiki.project1999.com/Granite_Face_Grinder - ~2.8k (Main damage weapon from 20-29)
https://wiki.project1999.com/Argent_Protector - ~4k (Main damage weapon 30+)
https://wiki.project1999.com/Sarnak_Backstabber - ~100pp (piercing practice)
https://wiki.project1999.com/Sword_of_Skyfire - ~100pp (1hs practice)
https://wiki.project1999.com/Silver_Chitin_Hand_Wraps - ~800pp
https://wiki.project1999.com/Velium_Fire_Wedding_Ring 2x - ~1k
https://wiki.project1999.com/Orc_Fang_Earring 2x - ~300pp
https://wiki.project1999.com/Chipped_Velium_Amulet - ~150pp
https://wiki.project1999.com/Straw_Spun_Belt - ~10pp

Fill the rest of the slots with https://wiki.project1999.com/Banded_Armor , https://wiki.project1999.com/Crustacean_Shell_Armor , or other cheap but good items. Whichever shield you want to use while doing 1 handed stuff is just up to how much you want to spend. There are plenty of decent and cheap shields out there.

You can basically sell the guard captains mallet at 20 and the granite face grinder at 30 to get some money back for better armor. They can be replaced with some cheap 1hb and 2hb weapons just for practice like https://wiki.project1999.com/Smoldering_Brand and https://wiki.project1999.com/Deathbringer%27s_Rod

[Danth]

Splitting camps is easy with shaman root, SK in this particular duo isn't much different than warrior pulling.

Also, FD isn't that big a deal in a duo, since your shaman cant FD and will need to CR anyways from a wipe. SK spell utility really doesn't synergize very well with a shaman.

Feign and splitting becomes critically important for doing difficult top-level areas where things are resistant enough (or there are enough adds) where root might not work reliably. Hence why you see monks and shadow knights favored over warriors for very high-level shaman duo partners. For ordinarily leveling content I agree feign splitting isn't--usually--all that important. The original poster seems unlikely to go all the way to 60. Counterpoint, though, is that there's really not a lot of point in playing a warrior if you don't plan to raid with it. He's not really getting the most out of either class in the environment he has chosen, but neither is he really going to go wrong with either one. They'll both get the job done.

Disclaimer: SK is my main on P99 and has been since 2012, and I spend a lot of time online duo with the wife on her Shaman. Obviously we've been level 60 for a long time. Hence I know that duo very well.

Danth

[Crede]

Splitting camps is easy with shaman root, SK in this particular duo isn't much different than warrior pulling.

Also, FD isn't that big a deal in a duo, since your shaman cant FD and will need to CR anyways from a wipe. SK spell utility really doesn't synergize very well with a shaman.

I've leveled an SK and a warrior past 50 here, and the dps difference is staggering. I can't overstate how strong berserk dps is, I actually leveled my warrior faster than my monk.

But again, EQ is more about the journey and fun, any melee + shaman duo is strong so just think about what you would enjoy most.

This is a silly argument for not needing FD. Plenty of situations where a sk can fd without the shaman being in Aggro range of the mob. It’s incredibly useful and makes sk/shaman one of the best duos out there.

For those who don’t want to play wars in zerk mode, the dps difference between the 2 isn’t that staggering anymore in normal gameplay since sks were put on war dmg table and the 2h bonus patch came into effect.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I agree with Crede, FD is still quite useful at lower levels.

In a duo situation where you have a melee class and a class that can bind themselves, the priority is to save the melee class if you want to reduce recovery time from a wipe. The reason for this is simple: If the Shaman dies, they just go back to their nearby bind point and quickly recover their corpse. If the melee class dies, they will have to run from the nearest city, which can be pretty far. By having FD on the melee class, the Shaman can prioritize making sure the SK gets a successful FD while they are wiping. Then the Shaman dies and just runs back a short distance from their bind point. The Shadowknight could also drag the Shaman's corpse if they are in a more dangerous area.

Lower level hunting spots have plenty of areas where you would not want to pull the whole room/camp, without risk of dying or having a long recovery time after. Having FD keeps the play session more consistent from a mana perspective, and safer from a pulling perspective.

[kjs86z]

Lower skill players will have a better time w/ SK + Shaman. Its more forgiving when mistakes are made.

Competent players will out-pace with warrior + shaman by a country mile...its not even close.

That being said...if the goal of the duo is to explore, take risks, etc...of course SK is the choice. If you want to get to 60 faster and have a class that is far, far better on raid / hard-hitting mobs, you go warrior.

[Cen]

I think raiding is boring AF so I don't plan on getting that

Shadow Knight. Boom.

[wagorf]

given the OP's use case, SK

[radbeard]

we have been playing as SK/Shaman and its been great. We just hit 24 and now the shaman will begin to really shine. We both have ceremonial iksar BPs. Ebon Mace is really strong and we are both having a great time.

[Danth]

Shadow Knight/Shaman only gets stronger as a duo the higher you go. It's at its best at 60. If you like it now you should keep on liking it because you're just about at your relative worst at the moment. That's the duo I've done with the wife on P99 since ~2012. It gives good service for everything you can reasonably ask of a melee-based duo.

Competent players will out-pace with warrior + shaman by a country mile...its not even close.

Only to a point: The Warrior-based duo can potentially level faster, but it's more limited in the long run because of the lack of feign splitting. If someone stops at level 50 I tend to concur with you.

Danth