Shaman points allocation...

[Swish]

Yep I see the enchanter one there, and thought I'd check with the community on what's best for a shaman...

Race undecided, but don't think I'd enjoy an iksar as much as the other 3 choices.

Thoughts? I remember someone saying something about adding 5 AGI for ogres because of an AC penalty otherwise?

[username17]

If you have under 75agi you get an AC Penalty.

Stam is probably more important to you than most casters, but I would say still secondary wisdom.
Stam = HPs which you will use for Canni.
Maybe go half and half?

[baalzy]

For a shaman you may as well just go full out Stam. They're a lot more simple then an enchanter. I also wouldn't be surprised if you get better HP returns from stam then int casters, so its likely more valuable. Plus, when the shits the fan what does a shammy really need to end up doing? An enchanter will need the potentially large mana pool to keep a big group of mobs mezzed long enough to get the situation under control or the higher cha to more reliably charm something.

Shaman won't be doing that, they can heal but if things are really bad a shaman chain healing isn't likely to be the thing that prevents a total wipe. Instead, you're likely going to be more useful slowing/rooting stuff which will lead to you taking hits.

In non-oh Shi moments, you'll be cannibing your hp into mana anyways so your HP acts as a secondary mana pool anyways with the side benefit of improving your surviability.

[Estu]

Make sure your AGI is at least 75. Past that, STA; later on, having a large mana pool won't be important since you will be able to cannibalize indefinitely.

[Prince]

CHA

[soup]

The way I look at it, HP is king, but WIS is better than STA. I personally prefer a full WIS dump which makes it less burdensome to focus your gear 100% on HP/AC and having WIS be a secondary stat as far as gear is concerned.

[soup]

Oh, and Iksar = no JBB = fail

I can't even begin to fathom playing a shammy and not being able to use JBB. I think it's more useful than a fungi tunic (which is obviously a godly item for a shaman) but that does depend on your play style.

[Wudan]

looks like its rangers and warriors givind advice here.

Wisdom = mana
Stamina = hp

go full wisdom, rest in stamina. dont worry abot anything else except having agi at 75. Do not go full sta, thats BS! WHat matters most is your mana pool. HP is secondary.

[soup]

looks like its rangers and warriors givind advice here.

Wisdom = mana
Stamina = hp

go full wisdom, rest in stamina. dont worry abot anything else except having agi at 75. Do not go full sta, thats BS! WHat matters most is your mana pool. HP is secondary.

Having a large pool of health is extremely important for a variety of reasons for a shaman, but either way, the returns on WIS greatly outweigh the returns on STA, and the more WIS you get from initial stats the less WIS you need from gear, and as such, the more you can focus it on HP.

[quido]

In my opinion, the size of a shaman's mana pool isn't really relevant 99.9% of the time. Our power lies in our ability to recoup that spent mana. I think you will be hard-pressed to find even a raid encounter where an extra 200 max mana would make a difference. Playing a shaman, like many classes, is all about balancing your actions.

That being said, I feel that attempting to stack stamina on a shaman at the serious expense of wisdom is rather an effort in vain. Shamans (at least as a barb, I assume the same for other races) only receive 3 life per point of stamina. My planar breastplate has 9 stamina and only returns 27 life =P I assume the return drops above 200 or some amount, similar to wisdom. Up to 200 wisdom we receive 10 mana per point. So while I do consider life the more important attribute, I think in general one should seek to achieve 200 wisdom first. It is at this point, as one begins to accumulate more and more wisdom, that one can seek to swap in items with +hp and +mana. I think any shaman would be hard-pressed to accrue an additional 50 stamina through initial points and gear, and even if that was managed, you'd only yield 150 life.

[baalzy]

Looking at the gear available there really isn't really a lot of +sta gear available and a lot of the raw +hp/mana gear is pretty gimp in AC(which is another important stat for a shaman). You're going to end up getting +100 wisdom via equipment regardless of what you do unless you totally gimp yourself (with current available equipment up to and including sky, but not VP). When velious hits there will be more equipment available with even higher amounts of Wisdom.

Putting a few points into Wisdom wouldn't go awry, but it wouldn't be a good idea to put a full 25 into wisdom. 5-15 points depending on your race with the rest into sta (tho remember you need 5 in agility if you're an ogre)

[sobchak123]

Whoever told you to dump everything in wisdom is a total noob

Every point goes into STA. Period. Any shaman that tells you otherwise doesn't comprehend the true power of the class, or have any idea how to play a shaman with skill. It's all about maximizing your regen and hp. Screw wisdom. I suppose if you're a troll or ogre, sure, dump a few I guess.

Cannibalize is your most important spell and you should be having a nice macro setup to chain it. If you're not canni dancing, you're a shitty shaman. Add rage and you have an extremely efficient class. Any shaman that sits there and meds, especially with a cleric in the group is a lazy POS worthless shaman and you should kick them from your group.

[Mardur]

Every point goes into STA. Period.

& Ogre.

[purist]

Add rage and you have an extremely efficient class.

lol

[Asher]

Whoever told you to dump everything in wisdom is a total noob

Every point goes into STA. Period. Any shaman that tells you otherwise doesn't comprehend the true power of the class, or have any idea how to play a shaman with skill. It's all about maximizing your regen and hp. Screw wisdom. I suppose if you're a troll or ogre, sure, dump a few I guess.

Cannibalize is your most important spell and you should be having a nice macro setup to chain it. If you're not canni dancing, you're a shitty shaman. Add rage and you have an extremely efficient class. Any shaman that sits there and meds, especially with a cleric in the group is a lazy POS worthless shaman and you should kick them from your group.

Yea, Trolls get a super high starting WIS. Just dump everything into STA. :rolleyes:

WIS all the way and rest into STA. That is my opinion.

Asher

[Massive Marc]

Most of the races capable of playing a shaman start with a pretty low WIS.
Jeremy and Asher are correct. Max your WIS to 200 then go STA

[skorge]

Cannibalize is your most important spell and you should be having a nice macro setup to chain it. If you're not canni dancing, you're a shitty shaman. Add rage and you have an extremely efficient class. Any shaman that sits there and meds, especially with a cleric in the group is a lazy POS worthless shaman and you should kick them from your group.

You do realize that rage is a worthless piece of shit spell now, right? It drains your mana down to zero and will keep it there, so canni does nothing with rage on you...also rage is bugged half the time now anyways (unless they fixed it, AGAIN)

But to answer the question, max your wisdom on any shaman you create (put all points into WIS), then work on your stamina. When equipping your shaman aim for high AC and HPs gear to help you level easier...once you get higher levels you can start focusing more on the WIS/Mana items, but trying to keep your HPs up is always a good idea. In the end look for a good balance.

My best advice to level a shaman faster is get him a Poison Wind Censor. I specifically say Poison Wind Censor because they are only going for about 1-2k now. For a 20/28 weapon you can't beat that, and as a shaman this one item alone will be a HUGE factor in your damage output. Once this weapon starts to proc you might need to stop using it, lol...but if you could afford it, go Granite Face Grinder. 2HB is the way to go for helping your shaman level up faster (solo style). Once you get 50+ you may want to swich to Howling Harpoon and SBS.

[falkun]

Once you get 50+ you may want to swich to Howling Harpoon and SBS.

Gogo shiny brass shield (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1103)!

[Weekapaug]

Most of the races capable of playing a shaman start with a pretty low WIS.
Jeremy and Asher are correct. Max your WIS to 200 then go STA

That would be great advice for another wis caster, but I wouldn't do that as a shaman, at least not in the content that is the scope of this server, personally. I wouldn't be so extreme as to go full STA then WIS, as others have posted, either. Without taking everything into consideration, both extremes are bad advice, IMO.

To the OP: You will have noticed by the responses in this thread that there are two schools of thought about how to build a shaman and you will see it in-game...Some shammys go full wis and play a pure caster role, others build more for HPs and AC for being able to slow-tank and make up for it by being very on top of canni....I play the latter. But that doesn't mean to completely neglect WIS or go crazy with the HPS and STA either. You want to find a balance. An oom shaman with insane HPs is still oom unless he has time to canni and is just as useless as an oom shaman with an insane mana pool but no HPs to canni...and vice versa. You need a balance.

I've been building my shammy around the goal of keeping my WIS above 175 while maxxing HPs (and AC where possible because I like to be able to slow-tank) and actually PLAYING my character when grouped, not just sitting in the back medding like a cleric. I'm not going to be so extreme as to say that shammys who do this should be booted from groups....I do it sometimes myself if im distracted, or the phone rings or something....but it is true, if you aren't canni-dancing as a shaman after 24 then you might want to evaluate how much this class is for you, because you certainly aren't playing it to full potential. Best way to get started in this direction is to go full WIS, rest STA on creation, and then just keep an eye on upgrades as they come.

And enjoy :) You are starting one of the very special classes in this very special game.....A game full of amazing classes.

[Massive Marc]

That would be great advice for another wis caster, but I wouldn't do that as a shaman, at least not in the content that is the scope of this server, personally. I wouldn't be so extreme as to go full STA then WIS, as others have posted, either. Without taking everything into consideration, both extremes are bad advice, IMO.

To the OP: You will have noticed by the responses in this thread that there are two schools of thought about how to build a shaman and you will see it in-game...Some shammys go full wis and play a pure caster role, others build more for HPs and AC for being able to slow-tank and make up for it by being very on top of canni....I play the latter. But that doesn't mean to completely neglect WIS or go crazy with the HPS and STA either. You want to find a balance. An oom shaman with insane HPs is still oom unless he has time to canni and is just as useless as an oom shaman with an insane mana pool but no HPs to canni...and vice versa. You need a balance.

I've been building my shammy around the goal of keeping my WIS above 175 while maxxing HPs (and AC where possible because I like to be able to slow-tank) and actually PLAYING my character when grouped, not just sitting in the back medding like a cleric. I'm not going to be so extreme as to say that shammys who do this should be booted from groups....I do it sometimes myself if im distracted, or the phone rings or something....but it is true, if you aren't canni-dancing as a shaman after 24 then you might want to evaluate how much this class is for you, because you certainly aren't playing it to full potential. Best way to get started in this direction is to go full WIS, rest STA on creation, and then just keep an eye on upgrades as they come.

And enjoy :) You are starting one of the very special classes in this very special game.....A game full of amazing classes.

AC is screwy on this server.
175 WIS is... way to low.
90% of the time when grouping as a shaman AC/STA doesn't matter.
Shamans can buff every stat but wisdom/int. No need to invest in STA. As others have said, STA doesn't scale well on a Shaman. HP/Mana gear is probably better after achieving 200Wis.

I guess you could say it comes down to play style. I'd rather root rot 4 mobs then melee down 1.

[purist]

You can really tell who plays a Shaman and who doesn't by these reading responses (see the guy who said anyone who doesn't put all in STA and use Rage is a bad Shaman who will get kicked from his groups). I suggest listening to people who actually have Shamans like Jeremy and Skorge. They would all agree that putting all in STA is unwise. You get about 3 HP per sta at level 50-60 on a Shaman.. So 20 points in STA, you get 60 HP... You realize that doesn't even amount to one Cannibalize: II cast? Instead you could've put 20 points in WIS and increased your mana pool by 200, and focused your gear on +hp instead.

tldr; Dump all in wis, focus gear on +hp instead of +wis

[etplante]

tldr; Dump all in wis, focus gear on +hp instead of +wis

[Weekapaug]

AC is screwy on this server.
175 WIS is... way to low.
90% of the time when grouping as a shaman AC/STA doesn't matter.
Shamans can buff every stat but wisdom/int. No need to invest in STA. As others have said, STA doesn't scale well on a Shaman. HP/Mana gear is probably better after achieving 200Wis.

I guess you could say it comes down to play style. I'd rather root rot 4 mobs then melee down 1.

You will notice that we are on a classic server and are limited in gear choices, depending on class. If you keep it balanced as you go, you will get the best use of the available gear as you progress through the levels. If you max WIS ASAP you pretty much have to build your shammy like a druid. I have one of those already, and when playing my shaman I like to be able to take a hit. I duo a lot, indoors when possible, so being able to play the class to its fullest is important to me, weather I get to pick ideal mobs to kill or not.

How's that root rotting on mobs that summon?

[Nagash]

Oh, and Iksar = no JBB = fail

I am aware of nothing a shaman with a JBB can do that a shaman without a JBB can't. Sure it's handy, but that's all it is, handy.

[soup]

I am aware of nothing a shaman with a JBB can do that a shaman without a JBB can't. Sure it's handy, but that's all it is, handy.

It's a hell of a lot more than "handy" when leveling from 45 on.

Past that, it's manafree DPS. I don't know how someone can be like "Oh, manafree DPS, that's neat, I guess" but like I said, depends on your play style. For mine, it's a hell of a lot better than "handy"

[Swish]

Thanks guys, I'm fairly convinced that 25 into wis is a good idea! I see the stamina side as well but the benefits of that sound like they'll wear off as levels progress.

So, its down to a troll vs ogre situation...

Read somewhere that troll shamans can get hold of a special snare/darkness clickie - is that enough of a reason to barrel roll a troll? Is it an effective item? Wish I could find the name of it.

Further comments appreciated, want to make the best use of race creation here :)

[Thoughtseize]

So, its down to a troll vs ogre situation...

Read somewhere that troll shamans can get hold of a special snare/darkness clickie - is that enough of a reason to barrel roll a troll? Is it an effective item? Wish I could find the name of it.

Further comments appreciated, want to make the best use of race creation here :)

This has been discussed to death. Troll's get regen and regent symbol of inny (clinging darkness click) while Ogre's get immunity to melee stuns.

Troll: regen @ 60 means an extra canni III a minute and a snare that lasts 6-7 ticks and is a slight movement decrease.

Ogre: immunity to melee stuns.

[Messianic]

It's a hell of a lot more than "handy" when leveling from 45 on.

Past that, it's manafree DPS. I don't know how someone can be like "Oh, manafree DPS, that's neat, I guess" but like I said, depends on your play style. For mine, it's a hell of a lot better than "handy"

Originally Posted by Reiker
There was a "discussion" about the usefulness of JBB awhile ago on this forums. My stance is fairly anti-JBB. I'm also curious why you need to root the mob, you'll never lose aggro over your pet (which is good, shaman pet is a horrible tank compared to the shaman).

Anyways, regarding JBB. This item is very good when you can first use it (45) but after awhile it actually becomes detrimental to use. I see you mentioned Pox, which would assume you were JBBing in PoP, which I don't recommend.

As I mentioned before, the strength of a shaman is no downtime. Any time you're not casting a spell you're wasting time. Every action a shaman takes can be represented in "time efficiency" instead of "mana efficiency." The JBB does 263 damage after an 8 second cast time, or 32.875 dps. The benefit of the JBB is that it's mana free. If there's any class that doesn't care about the mana cost of something, it's shaman. If you weren't clicking JBB above, you could afford to cast spells such as Blood of Saryrn. Blood of Saryrn takes 3 seconds to cast and costs 535 mana. To regain that mana it'll take about 6 cannis, or 30 seconds. Blood of Saryrn cost you 33 total seconds. That may seem like a lot until you consider that focuses, Flowing Thought, AAs, and mana regen buffs will make this even more efficient (but won't affect JBB). Blood of Saryrn does 2324 total damage, or 70.42 dps when considering the time lost to canni back mana. Again note that the time decreases with focuses, etc, increasing the potential dps by a lot.

Basically, the JBB would be an amazing and potentially overpowering item in the hands of any other class besides a shaman. Many use one early and get attached to it, not understanding that it's actually hindering them.

Notes: For whatever reason I confused Pox of Bertoxxulous with Breath of Ultor so I wrote this in the context of PoP, where JBB is fairly bad for the reasons above. Although definitely more useful in Kunark and Velious, I look at it like this:

I generally camp my own JBBs. I love soloing the 4 crypt nameds in seb for the phats. If you can hold that camp, a JBB is most likely not going to help you much. You're better off just DPSing / canning / torporing as normal. Even if the dps is on par with JBB, a JBB interrupt is a lot worse than say a canni interrupt so it's still not as good of an option. One strategy to use with the JBB is to click it immediately after casting a normal spell, since you'll save a couple seconds (item clickies ignore global spell cooldown). Chain clicking defeats this advantage, though. If you're not a top tier shaman or aren't very good at the "shaman gameplay" (which is a lot different than any other caster in some ways) the JBB can seem pretty awesome and is a pretty awesome leveling tool at 45. I'd just much rather farm and sell them for 15k+ a pop.

In Velious they get even less useful, due to better spells (Canni4 is insane) and high cold resists.

Reiker pretty much settled the issue for me. If you want to min-max, thinking in terms of "manafree DPS" isn't a good way to analyze it. You should always analyze it in contrast with alternatives, which is what Reiker did.

[soup]

Reiker pretty much settled the issue for me. If you want to min-max, thinking in terms of "manafree DPS" isn't a good way to analyze it. You should always analyze it in contrast with alternatives, which is what Reiker did.

You can also look at the JBB as being almost 44 DPS (263/6) since you can start the cast during the 2 second after casting a spell. Past that, the math in that post is reliant on being 60 and having torpor, since after all, canni isn't free. If you're already low on health and waiting on regen and aren't exactly loaded on mana, I'd rather be doing a JBB dance than canni'ing myself even closer to death.

And manafree DPS is relevant if you value convenience. If I'm soloing, I can (going to use the blood of saryrn example) do 2324 damage and get the mana back in 30 seconds after canni'ing 6 times and monitoring the med ticks to make sure I sit at the appropriate times to do an efficient canni dance, or I can be watching TV and eating a sandwich while mashing 111 11 111111 1111 11 11 111 1 11. Obviously if you just do that all the time you're failing pretty hard, but added convenience in soloing (something I do a LOT of) has a HUGE value to me, so like I said, it comes down to how you play. The value is in more than just the numbers :)

[Zuranthium]

Reiker's post is excellent but here's the one flaw in his argument (which is actually not relating to what he's talking about and was just an aside in that whole post):

Basically, the JBB would be an amazing and potentially overpowering item in the hands of any other class besides a shaman.

He assumes that JBB are not overpowered because it is less powerful than what a Shaman can already do with their own spell casting and mana regen. He doesn't take into consideration that Shaman themselves might be overpowered at the higher levels. Which they are. No doubt about it. Their mana regen in combination with everything else than can do makes them so vastly superior to a Druid or INT caster (Enchanter aside) that is an embarrassment.

Which is why I said in the other thread that Shaman shouldn't have pets (and Druids should heal better and resists should be fixed so that Magicians/Necros and sometimes even Wizards aren't crap against most of the high level content). Shaman already have amazing power. Giving them the pet, even though it's not a strong pet, is like taxing the poor more heavily so that the rich can become richer. Plus it goes against flavor that a Shaman can have a wolf following them around everywhere and a Druid (or even Ranger), who are specifically attuned to animals, can not.

[Extunarian]

I clicked something that guineapig posted in R&F and had to read Zaranthium tell me that my class having a pet is the same thing as a regressive tax code. Thanks a lot, guineapig.

[Fleury_P99]

STA