Does Green economy seem odd?

[azxten]

Just something I've noticed. Does anyone else think the economy is odd on Green? I was making a twink, something I hadn't done before on Green, and after actually participating in EC tunnel for several hours things seem off.

First, there is the near constant spam of Loam armor for sell due to the Hole. That's whatever but it seems to take up the place of other items. I couldn't find just basic melee gear all day. The market just seems saturated with repetitive garbage no one wants and no variety. Same few people spamming the loam all day, high end item sellers from guilds, EC mule resellers trying to price gouge, and that's mostly it.

Second, and I'm guilty of this, it seems like people use Blue pricing to determine Green pricing. Is anyone else doing this? If I'm looking at a twink item and let's say it costs 10k on Green but I see it's 4k on Blue, I have to ask myself, is this item worth such a major depreciation? After all we'll all end up on blue. Why not just wait and buy the item there or at a minimum buy an item with less severe depreciation? I did this for my melee buying a lot of lower end trash items because the pricing between Green/Blue is very similar. If I had no expectation of a Blue merge I would have bought a much different set of items.

Third, the "UN" guilds seem to also be participating in price fixing for common high end items. I don't know if this is true or not it's just something I've noticed. Green and it's "UN" alliance is odd in more than one way but it also seems to be killing some of the magic of the market as you see "firm" pricing across multiple guild bank auctioneers.

Does anyone else think the market on Green is messed up, odd, etc? Why? What can be done?

[bomaroast]

The xp highway has ruined this game

[Snortles Chortles]

everyone wants blue prices on green

[TripSin]

The xp highway has ruined this game

People always want to lay blame and scapegoat ZEMs and numbers, but guess what, it's the players' fault. It's YOUR fault and mine. Most people never want to look at or acknowledge themselves as potentially being the source of a problem.

People always complaining about such and such not being classic, while ignoring that the least classic thing about p99, by far, is YOU, the player. For example, the places I remember spending time at the most in live were derv camps in North Ro and the sarnak fortress in LOIO. In p99, nobody touches thoses. They've just been sitting deserted because we are different people now in 2021 and everyone's just trying to do what's optimal. In live I didn't even know what manastones or jboots were and I didn't care, but now that's all people care about it feels like at times.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Took me 3 week to find an MOSS for my SK alt and that was with both posting on forums and auctioning in game.

[Cen]

I only notice two things

1. Blue pricing IS effecting green in various ways. People use blue to make green prices and do wacky things rather then use real demand vs supply

2. We are between eras. We are currently in Kunark, where players are sticking themselves in crappily looty places at endgame like the hole. I was alone in Lower guk the other day. It was wacky.

[DoodyLich666]

Yeah, I have had the same experience. Seems like the same few people trying to sell loam last few times I’ve been in EC.

[TripSin]

That's because the hole is where everyone is. Because there are limited good spots to camp. It's very limited resources up for a lot of contention.

There's a reason mmorpg's aren't like classic EQ anymore - because a lot of EQ is just objectively bad game design.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

That's because the hole is where everyone is. Because there are limited good spots to camp. It's very limited resources up for a lot of contention.

There's a reason mmorpg's aren't like classic EQ anymore - because a lot of EQ is just objectively bad game design.

Which goes to the argument of adjusting the ZEMs on Green, if only to spread the population out more.

90+% of everyone level 50+ XPing exclusively in The Hole is certainly not "classic feeling" at all.

[Manakim]

100% ZEM outdoors, 150% on dungeons. Problem solved.

[cd288]

That's because the hole is where everyone is. Because there are limited good spots to camp. It's very limited resources up for a lot of contention.

There's a reason mmorpg's aren't like classic EQ anymore - because a lot of EQ is just objectively bad game design.

I mean the hole isn’t necessarily that much better as a camp situation than other places. It just has a high ZEM on P99. There are plenty of decent spots to camp across old world and Kunark. As far as EXP content goes there is tons. P99 just has the hole as a high ZEM; and I’m not complaining about that because I liked how they kind of switched up some ZEMs. But don’t conflate high ZEM in a zone attracting lots of players with meaning there is limited content for those players to XP on elsewhere because there’s not

[Cen]

But don’t conflate high ZEM in a zone attracting lots of players with meaning there is limited content for those players to XP on elsewhere because there’s not

I don't think anyone would disagree with this one sentence nor has anyone really. However, to avoid either you or I accusing each other past this point of making any slippery slope type arguments, I do have one setup here to re-paint the picture everyone is trying to paint here.

Imagine if they cut the ZEM of a zone down to giving something horrific, like 30% experience. (They haven't cut anything this badly, but there are some nasty cuts overall). Would you consider it rational to level in that zone primarily for experience gain? I wouldn't.

If we bring the number to a more realistic number like 90% normal experience vs 110% normal experience, is it so unusual for everyone to flock to the good stuff and write the 90% off completely as dead to them?

I don't think it's THAT crazy ;D

But our situation is one that's somewhere in between those two.

[cd288]

I don't think anyone would disagree with this one sentence nor has anyone really. However, to avoid either you or I accusing each other past this point of making any slippery slope type arguments, I do have one setup here to re-paint the picture everyone is trying to paint here.

Imagine if they cut the ZEM of a zone down to giving something horrific, like 30% experience. (They haven't cut anything this badly, but there are some nasty cuts overall). Would you consider it rational to level in that zone primarily for experience gain? I wouldn't.

If we bring the number to a more realistic number like 90% normal experience vs 110% normal experience, is it so unusual for everyone to flock to the good stuff and write the 90% off completely as dead to them?

I don't think it's THAT crazy ;D

But our situation is one that's somewhere in between those two.

Right but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that everyone being in the hole for the reason you articulated above doesn’t mean the EQ was bad game design or had limited content. Everyone is in the hole because the ZEM has been set to the level it’s at not because there aren’t other places you could XP

[unsunghero]

I bought nearly a full set of Loam armor on my chanter then watched some of the pieces I bought fluctuate down -200pp in price in the next few weeks as sellers got desperate, I’m kind of kicking myself now about it because I know that stuff is going to come way the hell down as time goes on with how much of it is being circulated. Lots of supply, low demand

[Mesocyclone]

"After all we end up on blue" is still pure speculation anyway. It has not been confirmed or denied yet.

[Xer0]

100% ZEM outdoors, 150% on dungeons. Problem solved.

I really wish they would do this. sick of being pigeonholed into the same places time and time again.

And I don't even want to see the rotating hotspots to be honest like they had (have?) on live. that just means the contention won't go away. It will just change every now and again. They really need to spread it out.

[azeth]

"After all we end up on blue" is still pure speculation anyway. It has not been confirmed or denied yet.

I don't agree with this. The only information we have is that green will roll into blue. It's actually speculation to suggest that it won't. The only evidence and statements that we have from the GM's is that it will

[DMN]

The economy has semi-artificial bottlenecking going on, specifically related to soulbound keys. Loot that would generally be distributed more equally among the player base is instead heavily loaded into certain players from certain guilds. Many of these guilds/players also have access to bullshit EC mules that are separate accounts. Instead of most legit players who do not cheat, there is zero opportunity cost for these mules to sit in EC until they get the price they want. They can sit there forever and it costs them nothing. So the non cheaters get screwed over double on this server, having to compete with cheaters using multiple accounts and now having to buy certain items from them as well.

If you were sitting there selling a piece for 1k plat for 5 hours, you might just start asking for 900 or or even less. But these guys don't care. They ruin the economy and make it unclassic too.

Sadly the only realistic way to fix it is what I suggested long ago, that they allow people to have a mule account that was 100% for EC. Couldn't go above level 5 and purely has to be used as an EC mule. Of course the mouthbreathers of p99 hated it, especially since so many of them are the aforementioned cheaters who benefit so much from this broken system. I also warned about the SB keys creating a fucked up economy and at a minimum suggested that HS be soulbound because it became soulbound very soon after release. It still not soulbound and it should have been for a long time already.

[redhorse]

100% ZEM outdoors, 150% on dungeons. Problem solved.

And you would just move the current situation in the hole to Seb. Which, I'm pretty sure is exactly why the devs funneled everyone into the hole. You can group for exp, or you can group in the other odds and ends Kunark dungeons for loot; you can't have both.

[BlackBellamy]

Water Flasks and Rations continue to be the same price they always were.

For everything else, you're paying for feelings.

Feelings are priceless.

Economy is fine.

[kaev]

People always complaining about such and such not being classic, while ignoring that the least classic thing about p99, by far, is YOU, the player. For example, the places I remember spending time at the most in live were derv camps in North Ro and the sarnak fortress in LOIO. In p99, nobody touches thoses. They've just been sitting deserted because we are different people now in 2021 and everyone's just trying to do what's optimal. In live I didn't even know what manastones or jboots were and I didn't care, but now that's all people care about it feels like at times.

You're not the first to point this out. Doesn't make it any less correct tho.

[kaev]

Which goes to the argument of adjusting the ZEMs on Green, if only to spread the population out more.

90+% of everyone level 50+ XPing exclusively in The Hole is certainly not "classic feeling" at all.

City of Mist has like zilch for pickup groups. On Blue there were pugs in CoM pretty much right up until Velious dropped (i.e. for years). Green player base is a bit odd (and I don't mean that in a good way).

[Fammaden]

City of Mist has like zilch for pickup groups. On Blue there were pugs in CoM pretty much right up until Velious dropped (i.e. for years). Green player base is a bit odd (and I don't mean that in a good way).

There are STILL PuG's in CoM on blue, daily. Its the go to spot for pick up xp in the 40's.

[Xer0]

And you would just move the current situation in the hole to Seb. Which, I'm pretty sure is exactly why the devs funneled everyone into the hole. You can group for exp, or you can group in the other odds and ends Kunark dungeons for loot; you can't have both.
Doesn't seem true. If people can XP and get loot, they will. but eventually that XP spot is eventually gonna fill up and people will populate other viable options. Problem is people only think of the optimal spots with high zem as viable. People are more willing to sit in a spot with a high zem and wait hours for an opening in a group rather than move to a second spot with a lesser ZEM where nobody goes. Can't tell you how many times I, as a druid, unable to get a group in a hotspot go to other technically viable options for my level only to find the zone practically empty.

[Scalem]

The economy has semi-artificial bottlenecking going on, specifically related to soulbound keys. Loot that would generally be distributed more equally among the player base is instead heavily loaded into certain players from certain guilds. Many of these guilds/players also have access to bullshit EC mules that are separate accounts. Instead of most legit players who do not cheat, there is zero opportunity cost for these mules to sit in EC until they get the price they want. They can sit there forever and it costs them nothing. So the non cheaters get screwed over double on this server, having to compete with cheaters using multiple accounts and now having to buy certain items from them as well.

If you were sitting there selling a piece for 1k plat for 5 hours, you might just start asking for 900 or or even less. But these guys don't care. They ruin the economy and make it unclassic too.

Sadly the only realistic way to fix it is what I suggested long ago, that they allow people to have a mule account that was 100% for EC. Couldn't go above level 5 and purely has to be used as an EC mule. Of course the mouthbreathers of p99 hated it, especially since so many of them are the aforementioned cheaters who benefit so much from this broken system. I also warned about the SB keys creating a fucked up economy and at a minimum suggested that HS be soulbound because it became soulbound very soon after release. It still not soulbound and it should have been for a long time already.

Keys are now bound on Green. But I agree with your point about having a 100% EC account. I hate spending time in EC trying to sell things and think it’s one of the worst aspects of the game. There is no downside to allowing people to box an EC mule that can never leave the zone or do anything but trade. It doesn’t remove player to player interactions like the bazaar did. I guess it allows you to perma farm a camp and just have someone run the items to your mule to sell while you farm. But let’s be real that already happens on p99.

[kaev]

Keys are now bound on Green. But I agree with your point about having a 100% EC account. I hate spending time in EC trying to sell things and think it’s one of the worst aspects of the game. There is no downside to allowing people to box an EC mule that can never leave the zone or do anything but trade. It doesn’t remove player to player interactions like the bazaar did. I guess it allows you to perma farm a camp and just have someone run the items to your mule to sell while you farm. But let’s be real that already happens on p99.

creeping boxerism is bad, mkay?

[DMN]

There is one other potential "fix" that doesn't involve boxing, which would simply allow the EC channel to have some global broadcast functionality. This would be a stronger divergence from classic than allowing an EC mule, but eliminate any concerns about boxing.

[Frug]

creeping boxerism is bad, mkay?

A slippery slope is bad only if you don't have the self control to keep yourself from sliding.

[azxten]

There is one other potential "fix" that doesn't involve boxing, which would simply allow the EC channel to have some global broadcast functionality. This would be a stronger divergence from classic than allowing an EC mule, but eliminate any concerns about boxing.


Blue had global chat when population was low. A 1,000 person chat room is a recipe for disaster though.

Years ago I was going to make a complex auction tracker that had a live stream of the chat log, would match people, alert on price triggers, show historical trends, etc. Actually I did make it but keeping the character logged in constantly proved too tedious. It would only last a few days at most and per rules couldn't be fully automated to log back in on it's own.

A lot of people are using these tools privately. Much better stuff than anything the Wiki attempts to do. That is another part of why things are so messed up. A public tool that had better recent data would help a ton.

Imagine if you could auction one time in EC and be sure it was logged and displayed on a site like the wiki. Players could search a specific item and instead of getting historical data from a week ago they would see stuff from hours ago.

Buyers can find who has what they want and at what price. Sellers don't need to stand around auctioning for hours.

[Snortles Chortles]

yeah guys let’s turn EC into the bazaar
(barf)

[Gustoo]

Lol.

economy is fine.

On a permanently timeline capped server, nothing has value except best in slot items.

That's all there is to it. Everything else is??? Even more so on non PVP where what you can accomplish in game has very little to do with your gear loadout, most of the time.

Plus the way people permacamp spawns like they are doing it for a living makes one wonder if they are doing it for a living: RMT.

As far as game design goes - everquest was not designed to be played 22 years later with a wiki guide jam packed with what would be elite game breaking hyper knowledge. The game was fully loaded with mystery and 3 years into it people barely knew how to complete some of these quests. Remember actually following quest lines rather than just reading a list of mobs and items to collect? All of the ambiguity in the real live timeline meant that none of the issues we are experiencing and describing here existed. If a game with EQ's basic design launched today it would take a years again for all of the quests to be discovered and all of the items to be broken. When the game is new you don't even know that JBOOTS is the only instant click all/all inventory usable runspeed item. You don't even know that quillmanes jacket is the only all all inventory usable levitate item and you don't know his pathing or spawn points or anything about him he is just a randomly appearing thing with a name that you kill.

Plus all of the spawns like quillmane that we have mastered were never intended to be understood and pharmed efficiently. It was supposed to be pretty much a mystery how these things appeared and a new game would take liberties to befuddle the user to make those items a special treat as they were intended not a 9-5 pharming operation.

The fact is that this is a museum server and if you want to play it to WIN well weird things happen.

Point is that the guy saying EQ game design is bad is wrong. The reason we play it still is because the game design is so good that none of us have found a better game to play. Video games get broken after playing them for 22 years for 5+hrs a day which is why living games get patched and changed all the time just to give people new stuff to do and figure out. On a museum project like this it is stagnant, non living. Broken things stay broken and trivial stuff stays trivial.

The point is to have fun.

[Jimjam]

Lol.

economy is fine.

On a permanently timeline capped server, nothing has value except best in slot items.

That's all there is to it. Everything else is??? Even more so on non PVP where what you can accomplish in game has very little to do with your gear loadout, most of the time.

Plus the way people permacamp spawns like they are doing it for a living makes one wonder if they are doing it for a living: RMT.

As far as game design goes - everquest was not designed to be played 22 years later with a wiki guide jam packed with what would be elite game breaking hyper knowledge. The game was fully loaded with mystery and 3 years into it people barely knew how to complete some of these quests. Remember actually following quest lines rather than just reading a list of mobs and items to collect? All of the ambiguity in the real live timeline meant that none of the issues we are experiencing and describing here existed. If a game with EQ's basic design launched today it would take a years again for all of the quests to be discovered and all of the items to be broken. When the game is new you don't even know that JBOOTS is the only instant click all/all inventory usable runspeed item. You don't even know that quillmanes jacket is the only all all inventory usable levitate item and you don't know his pathing or spawn points or anything about him he is just a randomly appearing thing with a name that you kill.

Plus all of the spawns like quillmane that we have mastered were never intended to be understood and pharmed efficiently. It was supposed to be pretty much a mystery how these things appeared and a new game would take liberties to befuddle the user to make those items a special treat as they were intended not a 9-5 pharming operation.

The fact is that this is a museum server and if you want to play it to WIN well weird things happen.

Point is that the guy saying EQ game design is bad is wrong. The reason we play it still is because the game design is so good that none of us have found a better game to play. Video games get broken after playing them for 22 years for 5+hrs a day which is why living games get patched and changed all the time just to give people new stuff to do and figure out. On a museum project like this it is stagnant, non living. Broken things stay broken and trivial stuff stays trivial.

The point is to have fun.

Quoted for truth.

[kaev]

A slippery slope is bad only if you don't have the self control to keep yourself from sliding.

We're talking p99 here. Pretty much everything players do here, especially on green, warps to the worst imaginable outcome without delay. Sliding is far too non-minmax to be relevant here.

[Shinko]

Just play self loot

Most fun

[Xer0]

Lol.

economy is fine.

On a permanently timeline capped server, nothing has value except best in slot items.

That's all there is to it. Everything else is??? Even more so on non PVP where what you can accomplish in game has very little to do with your gear loadout, most of the time.

Plus the way people permacamp spawns like they are doing it for a living makes one wonder if they are doing it for a living: RMT.

As far as game design goes - everquest was not designed to be played 22 years later with a wiki guide jam packed with what would be elite game breaking hyper knowledge. The game was fully loaded with mystery and 3 years into it people barely knew how to complete some of these quests. Remember actually following quest lines rather than just reading a list of mobs and items to collect? All of the ambiguity in the real live timeline meant that none of the issues we are experiencing and describing here existed. If a game with EQ's basic design launched today it would take a years again for all of the quests to be discovered and all of the items to be broken. When the game is new you don't even know that JBOOTS is the only instant click all/all inventory usable runspeed item. You don't even know that quillmanes jacket is the only all all inventory usable levitate item and you don't know his pathing or spawn points or anything about him he is just a randomly appearing thing with a name that you kill.

Plus all of the spawns like quillmane that we have mastered were never intended to be understood and pharmed efficiently. It was supposed to be pretty much a mystery how these things appeared and a new game would take liberties to befuddle the user to make those items a special treat as they were intended not a 9-5 pharming operation.

The fact is that this is a museum server and if you want to play it to WIN well weird things happen.

Point is that the guy saying EQ game design is bad is wrong. The reason we play it still is because the game design is so good that none of us have found a better game to play. Video games get broken after playing them for 22 years for 5+hrs a day which is why living games get patched and changed all the time just to give people new stuff to do and figure out. On a museum project like this it is stagnant, non living. Broken things stay broken and trivial stuff stays trivial.

The point is to have fun.

the problem OP posed doesnt exist on blue. or at least it didnt in the times before green. people were selling all manner of goods that one typically wouldn't think would be worth going out of ones way to camp for plat.

[Andad_Filla]

As far as what items are for sale I'm guessing it's just a matter of where we are in the timeline. There are not as many level 60 characters as blue and people want XP more than loot so the hole is where stuff is getting killed. I don't get it because all your gonna do at 60 is farm items 90% of the time between the occasional raid so why not get both even if the xp is slightly worse. I also think the lack of keys being soul bound at this stage is deterring people from living in old seb and HS where all the good stuff drops and that is having a real impact on item availability. I've seen more kylong armor for sale than sebilite scale and that's just whack.

[TripSin]

Lol.

economy is fine.

On a permanently timeline capped server, nothing has value except best in slot items.

That's all there is to it. Everything else is??? Even more so on non PVP where what you can accomplish in game has very little to do with your gear loadout, most of the time.

Plus the way people permacamp spawns like they are doing it for a living makes one wonder if they are doing it for a living: RMT.

As far as game design goes - everquest was not designed to be played 22 years later with a wiki guide jam packed with what would be elite game breaking hyper knowledge. The game was fully loaded with mystery and 3 years into it people barely knew how to complete some of these quests. Remember actually following quest lines rather than just reading a list of mobs and items to collect? All of the ambiguity in the real live timeline meant that none of the issues we are experiencing and describing here existed. If a game with EQ's basic design launched today it would take a years again for all of the quests to be discovered and all of the items to be broken. When the game is new you don't even know that JBOOTS is the only instant click all/all inventory usable runspeed item. You don't even know that quillmanes jacket is the only all all inventory usable levitate item and you don't know his pathing or spawn points or anything about him he is just a randomly appearing thing with a name that you kill.

Plus all of the spawns like quillmane that we have mastered were never intended to be understood and pharmed efficiently. It was supposed to be pretty much a mystery how these things appeared and a new game would take liberties to befuddle the user to make those items a special treat as they were intended not a 9-5 pharming operation.

The fact is that this is a museum server and if you want to play it to WIN well weird things happen.

Point is that the guy saying EQ game design is bad is wrong. The reason we play it still is because the game design is so good that none of us have found a better game to play. Video games get broken after playing them for 22 years for 5+hrs a day which is why living games get patched and changed all the time just to give people new stuff to do and figure out. On a museum project like this it is stagnant, non living. Broken things stay broken and trivial stuff stays trivial.

The point is to have fun.

Only BiS has value? Are you trying to be wrong on purpose? No wonder you don't think EQ is full of bad game design.

[neonspacedolphin]

You know one of the reasons I always liked the idea of everquest, even after WOW came out and I quit to go to college, was that it was difficult, took a lot of time to travel, and always sort of felt like you were lost and didn't know the utmost of anything.

Iono, suggesting server wide auctioning and boxing mules and all that is convenient and efficient not not really "lost in a celtic world". LOL.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

People always want to lay blame and scapegoat ZEMs and numbers, but guess what, it's the players' fault. It's YOUR fault and mine. Most people never want to look at or acknowledge themselves as potentially being the source of a problem.

People always complaining about such and such not being classic, while ignoring that the least classic thing about p99, by far, is YOU, the player. For example, the places I remember spending time at the most in live were derv camps in North Ro and the sarnak fortress in LOIO. In p99, nobody touches thoses. They've just been sitting deserted because we are different people now in 2021 and everyone's just trying to do what's optimal. In live I didn't even know what manastones or jboots were and I didn't care, but now that's all people care about it feels like at times.
Sadly this has been my experience as well. I came back to Green in January to enjoy some Kunark content but it's just a total ghost town. Haven't logged in over a week now as I know that playing means either soloing in a zone I enjoy, or grouping in whatever zone EVERYONE in my level range is located.

Had the entirety of Frontier Mountains to myself for my whole play session one Friday night, for example. It feels incredibly "unclassic" and it's frustrating that such a simple fix (adjusting ZEMs again) would solve this.

[cd288]

Only BiS has value? Are you trying to be wrong on purpose? No wonder you don't think EQ is full of bad game design.

I think his point isn’t that it doesn’t have value but just that it’s also not really critical for most classes to be effective.

For example, does a caster need +25 mana shoes for a few hundred pp? Not really. Do they need mana sleeves? Not really. All those non BIS items are nice to haves not critical to your ability to play the class.

Only class IMO that I would say needs to get all their slots filled with good gear before getting BIS would be cleric to make sure their healing mana pool is good. Warriors and Rogues want some good weapons, but other gear isn’t technically critical to them fulfilling their role...you could technically just go full bronze as a warrior and still be alright for instance.

Otherwise, any other class can probably do without it.