Complex Warrior Question - Proc Threat Amounts

[Hibren]

Trying to do a Deep Dive here on the amount of threat generated per proc by warrior threat weapons. From what ive seen in other threads procs here are normalized meaning all weapons are going to have the same PPM ? So in theory the amount of threat generated by the proc itself and delay (swing agro) should determine hate gain?

Starting off looking at the top end of threat weapons used here

Sceptre of Destruction - 12/18 - Decrease Hitpoints by 288, Stun for 0.0 seconds - Magic (0),

Obviously the highest threat item in the game given the dmg of the proc and the stun, but given the scarcity of this weapon on P99 Im not really interested in comparing it with the others.

(1) - Ratio (2) - 100% Haste Ratio

Jaelen's Katana - 14/19(0.7368)(1.4736) - Decrease Hitpoints by 80 - Unresistable, Lifetap

Silver Whip of Rage - 13/19(0.6842)(1.3684) - Increase Absorb Damage by 150 - Rune

Willsapper - 13/20(0.6500)(1.300) - Decrease Attack Speed 35% - Magic (0)

Trident of the Deep Sea - 14/22(0.6363)(1.2727) - Decrease Attack Speed by 10%, Decrease Hitpoints by 20 per tick - Cold (0)

Blade of Strategy - 14/24(0.5833)(1.1666) - Decrease HP when cast by 100, Increase Hate by 500 - Fire (0)

Skullcrusher of Kragg - 16/28(0.5714)(1.1428) - Stun for 4.0 seconds up to level 55 - Magic (0)

I know people consider Trident BiS MH with Jalen's OH, Im just wondering why?
Is it simply because the the Tridents proc is Cold based and resisted less than the MR based Willsapper or FR based Rage of Vallon?
Does Willsaper/Trident slow generate the same amount of hate despite the 25% difference?
Does it actually generate more threat than the rune from a silver whip or more raw threat than the +500 from Rage of Vallon?

[Solist]

none of those are the top end of threat weapons except one.

[Solist]

SOD
Feverblade
Veridix's/Verdrax
Maelstrom
Howling Cutlass
Red Epic
Willsapper
Malevolent Runeblade
Sword of the Shissar
Black Dragoneye
Tunare Whip
Trident
Kriezenn Flame
Jaleans
Vyemm Whip

Rounds out the top 15 for mainhand.

Offhand:
SOD
Feverblade
Trident
Veridix's
Red Epic
Sword of the Shissar
Blade of the Black Dragoneye
Tunare Whip
Vyemm Whip
Jalean's Katana
Malevolent Runeblade
Howling cutlass
Maelstrom
Frostbringer
Chelaki Tail

Top 15 for offhand.

Mix and match, have fun. Feverblade and redblade is the realistic BiS aggro generation you're ever going to get, suitable for trash tanking, xp groups, HoT etc.

-Raid tanking there's a great argument for Trident+Redblade for the CR slow on mainhand and switch after proc.
-Slowable raid tanking silly not to use sapper+trident then switch to something better.
-AoW, Vyemm and Tunare tanking max the hp so Redblade and Jaelen.
-Rampage tanking obv horn of hsagra+whitestone.
-Soloing shit in chardok Jaleans and blue blade.
-DPS in the crowd Kriezenn flame/Vyemm Club and blue blade.
-

[Allishia]

Red blade / Trident if competitive raid guild. Willsapper or Vilefang wep + frostbringer if group / casual guild...hope this helps!

[Hibren]

Not looking for weapon advice, I don't even play a warrior. Which explains why I didn't know about a lot of the VP War threat weapons, Solist mentioned.

I want to know why / how people determine how much threat these weapons generate and what makes one better than the other.

Like Feverblade, what makes a comparatively small disease DoT proc generate that much threat? Is it more the 18 delay generating a lot of swing agro? Or is there something I'm missing about the proc that causes large amounts of threat? I know dots like flame lick cause a huge amount of agro, but I always believed it was the AC Debuff that was generating most of that threat. Is there just a large threat mod attached to DoTs?

[srgraham69]

Procs are capped at 400 aggro for the non damage portion of the proc, so slows, poisons/disease counters, stuns, etc gives up to 400 aggro. The damage portion of the proc is 1 aggro per point of damage. So for feverblade you get 400 aggro for the counters, 110 from the dd portion, dot damage aggro, and 11/18 for great white damage output aggro. For spells ur class can cast you are not capped at the 400 aggro, so the ac debuff portion of flame lick provides whatever max aggro it is set to, probably 600 or so not sure on its threat max

[Naethyn]

Red blade is the best.

[Cardnyl]

Procs are capped at 400 aggro for the non damage portion of the proc, so slows, poisons/disease counters, stuns, etc gives up to 400 aggro. The damage portion of the proc is 1 aggro per point of damage. So for feverblade you get 400 aggro for the counters, 110 from the dd portion, dot damage aggro, and 11/18 for great white damage output aggro. For spells ur class can cast you are not capped at the 400 aggro, so the ac debuff portion of flame lick provides whatever max aggro it is set to, probably 600 or so not sure on its threat max

So WESS and infestation only give 400 regardless of the number of disease/poison counters they inflict?

For WESS, are the blind and atk debuff components handled separately (400 for the blind and 400 for the attack debuff) or is it all rolled together with the counters (400 total)?

[Arvan]

Lots of misinformation going around. Proc aggro values werent “normalized” or all set to the same level or something they were simply capped at 400 hate if the spell is something your class cannot natively cast. Weapon procs that were below 400 remain below and those above 400 were all pushed down to 400. The exception is red epic cause its proc is direct hate

[Arvan]

Proc rate per minute is normalized however and all weapons on p99 have the same “procmod”

[wagorf]

i trust what i see while xping in seb/hole/kc - the first proc on the mob, whether mob will stick on me to where ever i go


Sword of Shissar
Krei Flame
If first proc from any of above, mob will face me if I am close, but not follow me when i move.


If first proc is from below, mob stays with me where ever i go.
Feverblade
Red Blade
Trident


if someone can share experience for the other weapons that'd be great

[Samoht]

Kreizenn's Flame is a DPS weapon. Why are people in this thread recommending it for tanking? Sure, it's going to work moderately well for an EXP group if you're grouped with people without significant gear.

But it's not going to be good enough to hold aggro in HoT we're you're up against DPS monks using Gharns/FoN that refuse to evade because they somehow feel some sort of pride over stealing aggro.

[srgraham69]

So WESS and infestation only give 400 regardless of the number of disease/poison counters they inflict?

For WESS, are the blind and atk debuff components handled separately (400 for the blind and 400 for the attack debuff) or is it all rolled together with the counters (400 total)?

Correct 400 is the cap for all non damage portions of the proc, and damage portion generates separate aggro. Red blade is 500 hate + 100 dmg = 600 hate, SoD is 400 hate for stun + 288 dmg = 688 hate, etc. Arvan's response was the initial thought when the patch notes were released on proc normalization, but testing has shown that the damage portion provides its own aggro outside of the 400 cap.

[Hibren]

Thanks for all the info. Is any of this documented anywhere or it this all tribal knowledge?

[Snaggles]

Thanks for all the info. Is any of this documented anywhere or it this all tribal knowledge?

Mostly documented in the forums.

Post melee proc patch you get the hate cap with:
* slow (tho some say the Wavecrasher is meh for aggro)
* Poison counters
* Stun or interupt
* AC Debuff
* Blind
* Any combo of the above

Once you have one of those procs it's usually best to go for white damage (ratio) and max haste. There are outlyers to the 400 hate proc rule (epic, feverblade, SoD etc) and plenty that fall far below that. While the patch borked some of the higher end tanking weapons and some freaks like the WESS it brought a lot of the others back into line again.

Personally post-patch I really enjoyed the Frostbringer and Sarnak Warhammer combo. That or anything Ykesha in the offhand. I sure didn't miss tryin to nab Vilefang one bit. It's not a "good" combo but it worked decently well.

[Gustoo]

Kreizenn's Flame is a DPS weapon. Why are people in this thread recommending it for tanking? Sure, it's going to work moderately well for an EXP group if you're grouped with people without significant gear.

But it's not going to be good enough to hold aggro in HoT we're you're up against DPS monks using Gharns/FoN that refuse to evade because they somehow feel some sort of pride over stealing aggro.

When I was a ranger on live I thought it was great that I was stealing aggro from other melees, thought I was doing a great job spreading the load and keeping the hate on a melee of any kind. Poor groups.

[Naethyn]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kreizenn's_Flame

is a super annoying weapon. Sure it looks cool, has a great ratio, stats, and the proc is a lure, but any time you actually want the +FR the proc will never land.

Its not good aggro.

[Samoht]

I sure didn't miss tryin to nab Vilefang one bit. It's not a "good" combo but it worked decently well.

Based on your parameters, Infestation is still going to be one of the best entry level aggro weapons. Still procs at level 1, so highly desirable for twink warriors.

Nothing has changed for viability of this weapon.

[Jimjam]

Based on your parameters, Infestation is still going to be one of the best entry level aggro weapons. Still procs at level 1, so highly desirable for twink warriors.

Nothing has changed for viability of this weapon.

And you get to poke and twist monsters with a sword. It is good optics.

[Snaggles]

Based on your parameters, Infestation is still going to be one of the best entry level aggro weapons. Still procs at level 1, so highly desirable for twink warriors.

Nothing has changed for viability of this weapon.

Get a level 1 to DN so you can loot a .5 ratio aggro weapon you won’t find benefit of until the solo exp train slows down. If that’s viability, sure.

[Yinein]

Get a level 1 to DN so you can loot a .5 ratio aggro weapon you won’t find benefit of until the solo exp train slows down. If that’s viability, sure.

You act like it's hard to get weapon, rots for most farming guilds/alliances. Also it's 5 to get through kael. Hope that helps.

[Snaggles]

You act like it's hard to get weapon, rots for most farming guilds/alliances. Also it's 5 to get through kael. Hope that helps.

I’m not saying it’s hard. I’m saying it’s not worth the effort until later on. Aggro procs aren’t needed for soloing or really any mobs with like 800 hps. I was refuting the lvl 1 Infestation alt concept. So feel free if you want to be able to link brag your twink status in HK or mistmoore. Otherwise just get levels solo and complain about aggro problems when rogues are double backstabbing.

Better yet let’s focus on the thread topic instead of cherry picking posts for inane arguments like optimizing aggro for level 5’s.

[Yinein]

I’m not saying it’s hard. I’m saying it’s not worth the effort until later on. Aggro procs aren’t needed for soloing or really any mobs with like 800 hps. I was refuting the lvl 1 Infestation alt concept. So feel free if you want to be able to link brag your twink status in HK or mistmoore. Otherwise just get levels solo and complain about aggro problems when rogues are double backstabbing.

Better yet let’s focus on the thread topic instead of cherry picking posts for inane arguments like optimizing aggro for level 5’s.

The game was won 6 years ago, twinking is all that's left. Hope that helps.

[Samoht]

Get a level 1 to DN so you can loot a .5 ratio aggro weapon you won’t find benefit of until the solo exp train slows down. If that’s viability, sure.

The alternative you suggested was worse than .5 ratio. I'm not even sure what you're arguing any more.

[radbeard]

So ho much hate comes from WESS now? Is it just 400 + poison damage?

[Samoht]

So ho much hate comes from WESS now? Is it just 400 + poison damage?

Word on the street is hate from blind was nerfed. It's not even good for paladins to use any more.

In short, do not use WESS.

[SlankyLanky]

Word on the street is hate from blind was nerfed. It's not even good for paladins to use any more.

In short, do not use WESS.

is there a patch note somewhere here this is confirmed? i tanked docks in the hole a few weeks ago on my paladin and didnt have any problem with aggro using blind.

[Jimjam]

Word on the street is hate from blind was nerfed. It's not even good for paladins to use any more.

In short, do not use WESS.

is there a patch note somewhere here this is confirmed? i tanked docks in the hole a few weeks ago on my paladin and didnt have any problem with aggro using blind.

I feel this may be an issue specific to warriors - my warrior’s fennin ro bp (aoe blind) used to be great aggro but now no longer.

[SlankyLanky]

I feel this may be an issue specific to warriors - my warrior’s fennin ro bp (aoe blind) used to be great aggro but now no longer.

huh, i guess i just hadnt noticed on my war since the wess is in his offhand right now with frostbringer in mh, so im guessing me not having noticed it on the war is due to the frostbringer having enough aggro to make up for the blind not being as good as it used to be.

thats a bummer if its true, wess used to be a great cheapish weapon that could actually make a warrior feel like a tank in groups due to the proc going off at level 1.

[Ennewi]

Word on the street is hate from blind was nerfed. It's not even good for paladins to use any more.

Unless something was changed very recently, this is not the case. FoL doesn't cause nearly as much hate as it did years ago, but it should still be reliable.

[remen]

First of all, there is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. Off the bat an important one to correct is that a proc needs to land to generate agro. Whether the proc is fully resisted, partially resisted, or fully lands, it generates the same amount of threat.

White damage (weapon ratio) is more important now that there is a cap on the threat from procs. The way threat from a proc changed is that the agro component is capped at 400 threat (ie poison counters, stuns, slows, snares, etc.). However, if the is a DD or DoT as part of the proc, that gets added on top of the 400. So that is why some VP weaps have made a comeback. As an example, feverblade was mentioned which has the disease counters that hit the 400 hate cap. But it also has 110dd AND a DoT. So the threat from the proc is 400 + 110 + the dot. And the ratio is pretty good at 11/18. However, it may not be used as commonly on raids due to having 0 hp / ac or any other stats.

Trident is highly regarded because the slow is cold based, therefore it can land on otherwise unslowable mobs like Vyemm or Kreizenn. And even aside from that it is a very good threat weapon anyways, with a solid ratio a 400 threat proc + DoT, and 50hp and 10 stam.



The following post is so bad it isn't even worth correcting. Maybe half the information is accurate.

SOD
Feverblade
Veridix's/Verdrax
Maelstrom
Howling Cutlass
Red Epic
Willsapper
Malevolent Runeblade
Sword of the Shissar
Black Dragoneye
Tunare Whip
Trident
Kriezenn Flame
Jaleans
Vyemm Whip

Rounds out the top 15 for mainhand.

Offhand:
SOD
Feverblade
Trident
Veridix's
Red Epic
Sword of the Shissar
Blade of the Black Dragoneye
Tunare Whip
Vyemm Whip
Jalean's Katana
Malevolent Runeblade
Howling cutlass
Maelstrom
Frostbringer
Chelaki Tail

Top 15 for offhand.

Mix and match, have fun. Feverblade and redblade is the realistic BiS aggro generation you're ever going to get, suitable for trash tanking, xp groups, HoT etc.

-Raid tanking there's a great argument for Trident+Redblade for the CR slow on mainhand and switch after proc.
-Slowable raid tanking silly not to use sapper+trident then switch to something better.
-AoW, Vyemm and Tunare tanking max the hp so Redblade and Jaelen.
-Rampage tanking obv horn of hsagra+whitestone.
-Soloing shit in chardok Jaleans and blue blade.
-DPS in the crowd Kriezenn flame/Vyemm Club and blue blade.
-

[remen]

Proc rate per minute is normalized however and all weapons on p99 have the same “procmod”

Has this actually been tested and proven? Certain weapons feel like they proc more often than others, so I did a little bit of testing to try and generate some actual data. At 175 dex, some weapons were proccing a little over twice a minute while others were as low as 1.5 per minute. This was over a sample size of about 30 minutes per weapon, so idk if that is enough to draw any type of conclusions. Any stat heads in here that could help with figuring out at what sample size you can start drawing some conclusions with a high level of confidence?

[Arvan]

Has this actually been tested and proven? Certain weapons feel like they proc more often than others, so I did a little bit of testing to try and generate some actual data. At 175 dex, some weapons were proccing a little over twice a minute while others were as low as 1.5 per minute. This was over a sample size of about 30 minutes per weapon, so idk if that is enough to draw any type of conclusions. Any stat heads in here that could help with figuring out at what sample size you can start drawing some conclusions with a high level of confidence?

I haven't tested it I'm just going off a forum post by i think it was rogean saying all procmods were 0 here. Maybe its been changed since that post or maybe he was wrong/lying for some reason.

[Arvan]

Wasnt rogean it was nilbog heres the thread https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125483&highlight=proc+rate

[remen]

Wasnt rogean it was nilbog heres the thread https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125483&highlight=proc+rate

Cool thanks for the link, seems pretty definitive.

[Solist]

First of all, there is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread. Off the bat an important one to correct is that a proc needs to land to generate agro. Whether the proc is fully resisted, partially resisted, or fully lands, it generates the same amount of threat.

White damage (weapon ratio) is more important now that there is a cap on the threat from procs. The way threat from a proc changed is that the agro component is capped at 400 threat (ie poison counters, stuns, slows, snares, etc.). However, if the is a DD or DoT as part of the proc, that gets added on top of the 400. So that is why some VP weaps have made a comeback. As an example, feverblade was mentioned which has the disease counters that hit the 400 hate cap. But it also has 110dd AND a DoT. So the threat from the proc is 400 + 110 + the dot. And the ratio is pretty good at 11/18. However, it may not be used as commonly on raids due to having 0 hp / ac or any other stats.

Trident is highly regarded because the slow is cold based, therefore it can land on otherwise unslowable mobs like Vyemm or Kreizenn. And even aside from that it is a very good threat weapon anyways, with a solid ratio a 400 threat proc + DoT, and 50hp and 10 stam.



The following post is so bad it isn't even worth correcting. Maybe half the information is accurate.

What do you mean feverblade and VP weaps have made a comeback? They were BIS by a huuuuuge margin until velious (Feverblade + malevolent runeblade was BIS aggro gen all through kunark from when VP opened).

After velious it became feverblade + WESS, again by such a laughable margin it wasn’t worth even using anything else if you wanted max threat gen.

Post nerf it’s epic and SOD that made the comebacks. Feverblade is still OP, just not to the hilarious extent it was for the 7 years prior. As for that list, mix of models and extensive testing with most of them.

Reality is you don’t want BIS aggro generation most of the time, you want to provide the utility of an additional MR slow, a CR slow, huge HP and moderate hate gen. All through this sever we’ve had strings and prayers for aggro when it’s needed most in the game (hoshkar, nexona, gore nothing else warrants max aggro gen). Hence you’re maybe butthurt or something. But within the realms of flipping a position here or there, or subbing in some other very equivalent weapon down the list it’s dead accurate for hate generation which is specifically what was asked. Was even warrior specific hence the lack of salindrite listed which is comically more aggro than red blade, for example.

You’re a silly head if you think anything but a sapper and trident is worth getting if you had to just pick two simple common drops that are cheap. Those two, GG. Find some stats elsewhere.

[chevy79bu]

Word on the street is hate from blind was nerfed. It's not even good for paladins to use any more.

In short, do not use WESS.

This is just my personal findings and feelings. I have done no parsing and I have only played my warrior to level 50 now. But I have been using Frostbringer/WESS as my group combo since level 40. Personally to me it feels like the WESS proc generates better aggro on a normal mob. When Frostbringer procs I sometimes will loose aggro right back to a Rogue etc. But when WESS procs I can move around the camp and the mob will almost always follow me. With that said I still use Frost (main hand) and WESS (offhand). Regardless of what is better/best this combo still works great for holding aggro. I only have something like 125 dex while wearing a fungi/ no dex buff and get plenty of procs to manage hate.

[wagorf]

I have all the weapons discussed here except sod. I've also spent a lot of time in groups, mixing the weaps around. There is no "best weapon combo".

Reality is you don’t want BIS aggro generation most of the time This is true. It's about generating any proc, not about which proc. The top weapons don't differ threat so much to be considered game changing. You can have the top 2 proc weapons and with max dex there will be MANY times you just don't proc for shit.

[remen]

What do you mean feverblade and VP weaps have made a comeback? They were BIS by a huuuuuge margin until velious (Feverblade + malevolent runeblade was BIS aggro gen all through kunark from when VP opened).

After velious it became feverblade + WESS, again by such a laughable margin it wasn’t worth even using anything else if you wanted max threat gen.

Post nerf it’s epic and SOD that made the comebacks. Feverblade is still OP, just not to the hilarious extent it was for the 7 years prior. As for that list, mix of models and extensive testing with most of them.



Good point, saying that the VP weaps have made comebacks isn't the correct way to put it. I should have just said that they are very valuable still for the combo of a max threat proc + good DD / DoT. You're right it's the epic that has made the comeback.

Reality is you don’t want BIS aggro generation most of the time, you want to provide the utility of an additional MR slow, a CR slow, huge HP and moderate hate gen. All through this sever we’ve had strings and prayers for aggro when it’s needed most in the game (hoshkar, nexona, gore nothing else warrants max aggro gen). Hence you’re maybe butthurt or something. But within the realms of flipping a position here or there, or subbing in some other very equivalent weapon down the list it’s dead accurate for hate generation which is specifically what was asked. Was even warrior specific hence the lack of salindrite listed which is comically more aggro than red blade, for example.



This is where you go off the rails again. I don't know why on earth you think that only hoshkar, gore, and nexona warrant max agro, that is a very wierd combo of mobs to pick. The reality is that there are a ton of other mobs and situations that you want to generate max agro. Also, what is it you think I am butthurt about? I don't really understand what you are getting at.

To circle back to your original list, the ones that immediately jump out as ranging from bad options or ridiculously bad options are:

Howling Cutlass, Maelstrom, Tunare Whip, Kriezenn Flame, Vyemm whip, Frostbringer, and Chelaki Tail

Also "-Rampage tanking obv horn of hsagra+whitestone." is dead wrong. There are five 100hp main hand weapons.

"-DPS in the crowd Kriezenn flame/Vyemm Club and blue blade." Jaelen's and Tuna Braid are both better main hand options than kreizenn flame and vyemm club. Those are pretty awful weapons for a warrior to waste dkp on.