Digging a hole - walls under ground.

[Jimjam]

Hey guys, I know plenty of you are rugged individualists and amateur historians.

I need your help!

After years of mowing the lawn and not feeding it properly, thereby scalping away the earth, some rocky surfaces started to protrude from the grass.

This was made all the more apparent after some building work, which more or less did in most of the grass.

Revealed, was the top of a structure square in shape, roughly 4ft by 4 ft and filled with earth.

Within the bounds of the walls the ground was particularly damp - as if it didn't properly drain.

I figured, perhaps it was the hard border to an old flower bed. I could dig it out and re-lay it for better drainage.

So I got out my (t)rusty spade and started digging. It turned out these 'borders' were actually walls, made of bricks larger than a standard red brick but smaller than a breezeblock. I kept digging my trench down, to about 3 or 4 feet, and hit water.

At first I was worried I had breached a pipe - but there was no pressure behind the flood, and it was odourless - so I think it is unlikely to be a pipe - neither supply nor waste. I was able to bail out most of the water and the flood didn't refill. I think it may be standing water from rain and snow which was unable to drain.

Due to the depth of the structure, I no longer think it is an old flower bed. It was mostly filled with earth, and a couple of bricks, some terra cotta and a relatively small slab of concrete or two. Not much rubble for the size of it. I also found the blade of a knife, and some hard, brown metal rods - about 3 inches in length - with bulbous ends and something green about an inch or two in length with 3 fins, shaped a bit like the end of a torpedo.

Any idea what these walls may (or the contents) have been? A pond? some kind of pen? A small bomb shelter (the garden is in a UK city)? There was no surface structure - just some underground walls.

[Snortles Chortles]

obviously a shallow grave Hannibal Lecter

[magnetaress]

Probably a very old sewage drain. We still have those made of actual terracotta pipe here. 60+ year old structure. Still in use. Still got spare pipe laying about too. It's how we know. We also looked for it in the ground.

Run water from the house and see if it floods.

On the bright side, it's already excavated if its important.

May have been disused, obsolete, ours are still on the planning maps at cityhall from back then. Got to order that up in person and pay cash to look at them tho. Not stuff on the web.

[Baler]

old root cellar maybe

edit: What exactly is the material of the walls, You willing to post a quick picture of just the concrete composition. May be able to date it from that.

[Bardp1999]

I use something like this on my farm. Whenever I need to jack off one of the horses I will place myself in a small brick box while performing the act, it calms the animal and eliminates the threat of getting kicked in the head upon completion.

[Baler]

Could just be old fashioned attempt at drainage to get water to go away from ur foundation. Is it on a hill?

Sounds like something I put in for a separate drain field for a washing machine, so it bypassed our old homesteads septic. But that was all like pvc in 2006.

Tells us more about your house code violations. :p

[magnetaress]

Tells us more about your house code violations. :p

Naw this was up the dirt road on acreage. There was no actual city code. Deep red republican territorial county.

We had cattle :p

[Baler]

Are the walls on every 4 sides?
Is there a solid base all the way around it?

[Jimjam]

https://i.imgur.com/1ZwVyoGl.jpg
The bricks
https://i.imgur.com/SUMszcTl.jpg
some sheets of thick glass
https://i.imgur.com/x6PS2Oml.jpg
iron pins?
https://i.imgur.com/0isEr6tl.jpg
how wall appeared before excavation

[magnetaress]

We put a big barrel full of holes in a rubble filled pit. Seems like that but more old fashioned.

Maybe do a raised bed?

Or dig out along the bricks some more. What's on the other side of the bricks?

[Jimjam]

We put a big barrel full of holes in a rubble filled pit. Seems like that but more old fashioned.

Maybe do a raised bed?

Or dig out along the bricks some more. What's on the other side of the bricks?

If I can't fix the drainage, I'll probably fill with rubble, cover it with slabs or pebbles and put a swing chair on top.

I'm gonna empty the whole thing. I've gone one side to another... only need to dig like 4 more trenches of the same size (should be easier than the first) to do that.

[magnetaress]

If I can't fix the drainage, I'll probably cover it with slabs or pebbles and put a swing chair on top.

In England the ground is supersoggyy.

That's ridiculously wet. Thats why I'm fixated on it being something drainage related.

I live in a very sandy area. Only springs and sinkholes look like that.

[Baler]

I am a bit surprised by the amount of water in that somewhat shallow hole.

[Cecily]

https://i.imgur.com/1ZwVyoGl.jpg
The bricks
https://i.imgur.com/SUMszcTl.jpg
some sheets of thick glass
https://i.imgur.com/x6PS2Oml.jpg
iron pins?
https://i.imgur.com/0isEr6tl.jpg
how wall appeared before excavation

My best guess is this is evidence of an earlier civilization. Imagine, people used to live on the very same ground you stand on! Isn't that fascinating?

[magnetaress]

Would be cool if you found like an old well that got filled in.

[Jimjam]

I am a bit surprised by the amount of water in that somewhat shallow hole.

yeah, I was too! At first I was worried I had smashed into an old terracotta pipe or something. That doesn't seem to be the case. I think it is standing water which can't drain, cos it is surrounded by all sides by wall and seems to have a solid bottom (I've not been able to get visual, maybe it is more concrete rubble).

Maybe I should dig the other side of the wall to see what that is like!

[Gravydoo II]

Man you better call tony robinson and that guy with the jean short shorts.

[Jibartik]

https://i.imgur.com/ZBc6XkC.png

[getsome]

Could be an old cistern used to collect rainwater.

[Jibartik]

Im tellin u they moved the headstones but they didnt move the bodies

[magnetaress]

Just don't dig straight down.

tuK2wGG6y54

[Swish]

How old is your house?

[Kaveh]

https://i.imgur.com/1ZwVyoGl.jpg
The bricks
https://i.imgur.com/SUMszcTl.jpg
some sheets of thick glass
https://i.imgur.com/x6PS2Oml.jpg
iron pins?
https://i.imgur.com/0isEr6tl.jpg
how wall appeared before excavation

This is a Roman shrine to Mithraic mysteries

Kneel and be happy that Anglo Saxons are one of only four tribes fit to wear the purple

[Danth]

Not much to go on from such a small photograph. From how shallow it is it resembles something like a cistern or a well-built outhouse pit. Those types of things have a tendency to collect junk. There are some other structures it could be depending on how much of it remains covered. Whatever it is it was most likely left in place because getting rid of well-built brick structure is hard, to say nothing if it uses rebar. You'll most likely leave it in place for the same reason, and another person fifty years hence can ask the same question and history may repeat.

Danth

[magnetaress]

Not much to go on from such a small photograph. From how shallow it is it resembles something like a cistern or a well-built outhouse pit. Those types of things have a tendency to collect junk. There are some other structures it could be depending on how much of it remains covered. Whatever it is it was most likely left in place because getting rid of well-built brick structure is hard, to say nothing if it uses rebar. You'll most likely leave it in place for the same reason, and another person fifty years hence can ask the same question and history may repeat.

Danth

2cnded. I thought this aswell but decided against posting a ton more because I already have like 20 posts in this thread.

My next guess is a factory that was bombed in ww2 and had like a flooded basement, they just bulldozed it down and put dirt on top probably.

[Jimjam]

I doubt it is an outhouse, as the deeds of the property have an outhouse in a leanto on the rear of the building.

It won't be a bomb-damaged factory because it is only 4x4ft, and these kind of city houses in the UK are like 100 years old. @Swish

It's been snowing on and off most the day, so haven't bothered digging more... gonna try to fully excavate the whole 4x4 area so I can try work out how to improve the drainage of the area, if nothing else. Hopefully it won't burst full of old sewage or anything! The water level hasn't really increased from when I bailed it out yesterday. My watering cans are full of nice muddy water now!

[magnetaress]

A secret smuggling tunnel into one of those bricked up rivers?

[Jimjam]

I do live half a mile from a fairly major in-land waterway.

[magnetaress]

I just want it to be cool and work out for you! Imagine finding some long forgotten treasure protected in there. Like the Crown Jewelry.

[Jimjam]

I just want it to be cool and work out for you! Imagine finding some long forgotten treasure protected in there. Like the Crown Jewelry.

That would be pretty cool! It does seem to be just backfilled rubble atm though. I'll probably fill it up with plastic skeletons and stuff when I back fill it.

[magnetaress]

Thread is sorta like Oak Island, so thx for that :)

[Topgunben]

interesting find. I imagine upon further excavation you will be able to fully tell what the structure is.

Given its shape and size, I would lean towards a sewage distribution box.

But it also could be a place where the previous owners stored all kinds of precious metals and jewelry :)

[mcoy]

I was thinking along the lines of the solids portion of an effluent tank as well. There don't appear to be any incoming/outgoing pipes though, and it's pretty small to be handling sewage.

If the only access is from above (seeing as it wasn't capped off with another slab) I'm leaning towards a freshwater cistern. If you do a google image search for "old cistern" you'll see a few that somewhat resemble what you've uncovered.

-Mcoy

[mcoy]

I mean it explains the size, the impermeability of the box, and it was amongst the first results for "i found a concrete box buried in my yard" on google...

-Mcoy

[Swish]

That would be pretty cool! It does seem to be just backfilled rubble atm though. I'll probably fill it up with plastic skeletons and stuff when I back fill it.

Stranger things have happened, King Richard III's body found buried under a car park in Leicester about 10 years ago... (LINK (https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/richard-iii-plantagenet-car-park-king-timeline-discovery-leicester-reburial-key-dates/))

If that structure predates your house Jimjam I'd go down to your local library or get in touch with the land registry and find out what (if anything) was there before those houses were built ^^

[Jimjam]

The bricks look more modern than the house, but perhaps I am mistaken.

I did more digging this morning, and a bit of bailing out

https://i.imgur.com/NqyiBe9b.jpg

It has solid concrete bottom. Between that and the brick walls, that must explain the drainage issues.

http://i.imgur.com/ydPewFVb.jpg (https://imgur.com/ydPewFV)

A smashed old WC (I think) has been used as backfill.

A previous owner had knocked down the outhouse which adjoined the main building (a separate structure to these walls).

Seeing as there seems to be no ingress of water into the structure I'm excavating, I am guessing this was one of those old fashioned hedge-hog/toddler murdering ponds, which they backfilled with waste from the demolition of the old outhouse in advance of having their own child.

I would guess the pond was built after the war, possibly replacing a bomb shelter which previously was sank in that area?

[Jerri]

Perhaps an old rain water tank, or a sceptic tank?

[DoodyLich666]

You should for sure bury some weird shit in the hole when you are done.

[Jimjam]

You should for sure bury some weird shit in the hole when you are done.

https://i.imgur.com/npo0esxb.jpg

Well, it's fully excavated and bailed out of water. Phew! That was tiring work. At least I didn't spend all weekend in The Hole(!)

So, yeah, it is 4 brick walls with concrete bottom all round. No way for water to escape - no wonder it was so wet, even after a relatively dry spell. Still no idea what it used to be. Too small to be an air raid shelter IMO.

I guess the question now is whether to try remove the actual structure? Or at least smash up the base or remove a few bricks so it has a chance of draining out better.

[magnetaress]

Maybe a fake pond, with faux fish?

Or a firepit?

Or line it with crystals and LEDs and a glass cover?

[RecondoJoe]

This thread motivated me to fix my dad's dryer... checked all the fuses, they was all good..

pulled the element out and the coil was broke in two
fortunately had an old dryer with a bad switch board, but good element, so was able to swap it out for free.

[Jimjam]

Maybe a fake pond, with faux fish?

Or a firepit?

Or line it with crystals and LEDs and a glass cover?

I'm thinking pond.

People on Imgur seem to think it may be an old sceptic tank. Seeing as the property had an outhouse elsewhere, and this pit has no pipes going in and is watertight/has no soak away that seems really unlikely to me. Oh, and the area has some really decent / old sewage pipes which go directly under where the original outhouse stood.

[solleks]

Before sewer comes into a town septic systems are used. Once the house is connected to the sewer system the septic tank is abandoned and buried. You are digging up an abandoned septic tank, the pieces of rubble are probably parts of the lid smashed up

[Jimjam]

That doesn’t make sense. The sewer was laid at the same time as the house and the bricks in this pit seem more modern than the bricks in the house.

I know where the old outhouse stood as it was demolished about a decade ago and a wetroom was built last year in its place using the original sewer.

[mcoy]

How old is the house/property? That'll help narrow it down. Since cistern and septic have been ruled out - how deep is it? 50's and 60's eras loved their useless bomb shelters...

https://imgur.com/07UNcIh.png

-Mcoy

[Jimjam]

The house is just over a century, it's in a wealthy area of a decently old and fairly major English city.

I would have thought the structure would have had a more obvious entrance if an air raid shelter, but I guess that could have been above ground which was since removed.

Being a city of industry, the area did suffer bombing as part of the Blitz in WWII - there were garden air raid shelters locally, so it's not a bad shout. It's about 3 or 4 ft deep, like a meter or so in new money. The spade should give an idea of scale.

[solleks]

There was a sewer system 100 years ago? Where did the sewer go then?

[magnetaress]

Even if it was an old sceptic, perfectly fine and safe by now.

Even more reason to pondify.

[Jimjam]

There was a sewer system 100 years ago? Where did the sewer go then?

Of course, 200 years ago the UK was a developed industrial nation, not the wild west...

I used to work as a lock keeper on the local major river, adjacent to the site of the 1800s sewage treatment plant which is still used to clean sewage down stream of the city and return liquid to the flow.

[solleks]

Thats reallycool

[Jimjam]

Thats reallycool

There are pros and cons to living somewhere with 2 century old plumbing infrastructure where the roads are built on the remains of 2 millenia old roman infrastructure 😅 :o

[solleks]

Are your ancestors from the area?

[cd288]

Seems like the start of a horror movie

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Probably a very old sewage drain. We still have those made of actual terracotta pipe here. 60+ year old structure. Still in use. Still got spare pipe laying about too. It's how we know. We also looked for it in the ground.

Run water from the house and see if it floods.

On the bright side, it's already excavated if its important.

May have been disused, obsolete, ours are still on the planning maps at cityhall from back then. Got to order that up in person and pay cash to look at them tho. Not stuff on the web.

My mother had to replace hers because it was completely cracked after 60 years of use. What a fucking nightmare that was (and expensive as hell)

[magnetaress]

My mother had to replace hers because it was completely cracked after 60 years of use. What a fucking nightmare that was (and expensive as hell)

:(

----

I can't wait to see what this turns into.

Fill it with gravel and run a natural gass pipe under it to turn it into a giant 4x4 BBQ?

[Jimjam]

My mother had to replace hers because it was completely cracked after 60 years of use. What a fucking nightmare that was (and expensive as hell)

oof!

Well I'm glad this turned out to be just a bunch of walls and a concrete base with no pipes!

I do worry now for the new wet room installed and plumbed into the old sewer where the old outhouse stood last year!!

[solleks]

Do the top of the walls look broken? How much lower are the current top of the walls from the finish floor of your house?

Where are your ancestors from