Monk mitigation too high?

[Zanti]

Currently we have monks tanking everything from the lowest named up to the spore king and juggernauts and doing it rather well. They can pull quickly and constantly with the instant and broken state of feign death. They hold aggro like champs with the multitude of stun weapons that they receive and they tank nearly just as well or some say better than a proper plate tank. So currently there is no draw back to having a monk tank... its not like taunt functions on anything worthwhile anyway eh?

I know that they were the Kunark dev's wet dream but on live at least they were always out in the zone bringing in mobs while a proper tank helped with the killing as pulling was a more involved process there. The bottom line is that yes monks should be able to tank but should they be mana efficient tanks who are actively sought after over pal/war/sk? I don't think so.

I do not recall if things were this biased towards them on Kunark's launch, they probably were but not everything is worth replicating.

Fire away! :rolleyes:

[inyane]

I don't remember monks tanking this well until AA's came out

[wehrmacht]

I don't remember monks tanking this well until AA's came out

The monk nerf didn't happen till end of velious because that's when all the 50ac all/all items appeared and really made monks overpowered. Kunark doesn't really have stuff like that.

I don't remember the exact numbers but this is basically how it works:

Monks in leather gives you a low softcap, something like 100-200ac then everything above that you only get 33% of or so.

Plate classes get like 300-400 ac before softcap affects them.

So the plate classes will have higher real AC (mitigation), but monks have higher avoidance which raises their tank ability back closer to real tanks.

If the monk can tank as good as a knight, it's not really strange. The knights have heals and other things to make up for it while also having higher mitigation and HP which makes them easier to heal while fighting a dragon than a monk which relies more on avoidance.

I've tanked Trakanon on EQ live playing an SK at 60 during Kunark but it would probably be much harder or maybe not doable playing a monk.

Monks should probably tank similar, slightly better, or slightly worse than knights in this era. If you parse it out and they tank better than warriors, then something is probably broken.

It's important to parse it on even cons and borderline blue cons because they could have made an error that causes monk avoidance benefits to scale too high when fighting mobs that are a good bit lower level than you but still con blue and end up having monks tank too good in comparison to warriors in that situation.

I'm not really positive that warriors are guaranteed to tank better than monks on low level blue cons though. The game was pretty much designed around warriors tanking by having lots of HP and receiving Cheals. For sake of balance, I would make it so warriors still did tank better than monks on low blues though.

When I was a 60 monk on Sullon Zek during Velious, pre-monk nerf, I'd attack level 57-58 paladins and warriors (Ramza and Toodles) and I'd block a shitload against them. Then I'd duel a warrior in my guild like Oogly or Tenaj and they would have a much easier time hitting me. So I think it might just be monk avoidance scaling really high against low level blues that you are seeing. The question is, for sake of balance, should it scale to be better than warrior tanking or not.

[Swish]

Playing a cleric I've noticed monks do compare to an average geared tank at least up to the early 30s...whether there's any change after that I don't know.

Do bear in mind the level of twinked to the teeth monks on this server, not all monks back in early Kunark had the luxury of all the gear that the 100s here seem to be running around soloing with.

[mimixownzall]

It's fine. I was tanking for a KC basement group for a while at level 55. Then a 55 warrior came in and took over. He definitely did a better job at mitigating dmg though my gear was probably better than his. I was having to get CH'd once a fight and he could go 2 or 3 mobs and not get a CH. I wasn't overwieght and had close to 1k ac. True, we were killing mobs a little faster, but it wasnt 2 or 3 times faster.

[packmule]

FD is working as intended. most def

[Kanz]

When I was a 60 monk on Sullon Zek during Velious, pre-monk nerf, I'd attack level 57-58 paladins and warriors (Ramza and Toodles) and I'd block a shitload against them. Then I'd duel a warrior in my guild like Oogly or Tenaj and they would have a much easier time hitting me.

Just curious, who are you? Would love if you're the monk who taught me how to pull nToV!

[Slust]

The monk nerf didn't happen till end of velious

As I recall, the Monk mitigation nerf didn't happen during Velious (though I do remember the stink it caused).

It wasn't until October 16th, 2002, that this mitigation change happened (according to patch archives).

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

Planes of Power came out October 29th, 2002, so that would put this mitigation nerf just right before PoP launched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

[Torven]

I wasn't overwieght and had close to 1k ac.

Which is about how much ac tanks in plate have.

I won't pretend to remember how well monks tanked way back when, but as the game is right now, monks are the most overpowered class by a good margin. I've certainly had more than one person tell me their favorite group had a monk in place of a tank class.

Can't wait for the robe nerf.

[soup]

Which is about how much ac tanks in plate have. The plate tanks with similar gear will have much more HP than the monk will have, thus CH is much more efficient.

I've certainly had more than one person tell me their favorite group had a monk in place of a tank class.
This statement is pretty much useless since there are FAR more monks with great gear than tanks with great gear. Damn near everyone has a monk twink, shouldn't be a surprise that people see a lot of monks who can tank. (keep in mind, the term "twink" can be used to reflect on characters even when they're in their 50s)

But I'm sure someone will try and turn that into a circular argument by saying "There's more monks because of how OP they are!"

Can't wait for the robe nerf.
Why does the gear other classes have access to bother you? Why do you want to celebrate someone else getting slapped in the face?

I mean, we shouldn't even see so many fungi robes since the TUNIC should be the common drop at the moment, but whatever.

[Torven]

The plate tanks with similar gear will have much more HP than the monk will have, thus CH is much more efficient.

On my warrior, shaman and cleric buffs account for nearly 50% of my hitpoints. There isn't going to be a huge difference between monk and tank hp with both shaman and cleric buffs on. Any HP advantage means jack so long as your group never has to stop pulling due to cleric mana. Not to mention the extra dps, aggro generation, and fungi regen/mend heals are going to mitigate any hp advantage as well.

This statement is pretty much useless since there are FAR more monks with great gear than tanks with great gear. Damn near everyone has a monk twink, shouldn't be a surprise that people see a lot of monks who can tank. (keep in mind, the term "twink" can be used to reflect on characters even when they're in their 50s)

But I'm sure someone will try and turn that into a circular argument by saying "There's more monks because of how OP they are!"

Oh yeah. I'm sure monks are the favorite alt class because they are so terrible. Just like there were so many magicians prekunark because they were so awful. Really.

All that monk AC comes from super expensive gear that few monks can attain, amiright?

Why does the gear other classes have access to bother you? Why do you want to celebrate someone else getting slapped in the face?

Because the power of one class affects all the other classes. If one class is a DPS and tank class in one, then there is no reason to group a tank. This isn't difficult to understand.

Some of the best exp my enchanter friend ever got was trioing disco with a monk and necro. So much for CH HP advantages.

[Numbers_]

If it's like it was during classic then complaining is just pissing in the wind.

I think, like soup said, a lot of what people see as overpowered monks are just people who are twinked out with regen robes and other twink stuff. I don't tank very well because i'm untwinked and have pretty "normal" equipment.

I hear it gets even crazier during velious, but isn't nerfed at least until lucin.

[Enderenter]

As I recall, the Monk mitigation nerf didn't happen during Velious (though I do remember the stink it caused).

It wasn't until October 16th, 2002, that this mitigation change happened (according to patch archives).

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-2.html

Planes of Power came out October 29th, 2002, so that would put this mitigation nerf just right before PoP launched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

You are correct. The monk damage mitigation nerf occured during Luclin/PoP era. Definitely post-Velious.

[Zanti]

If it's like it was during classic then complaining is just pissing in the wind.

I think, like soup said, a lot of what people see as overpowered monks are just people who are twinked out with regen robes and other twink stuff. I don't tank very well because i'm untwinked and have pretty "normal" equipment.

I hear it gets even crazier during velious, but isn't nerfed at least until lucin.

We are primarily talking about the 50+ game where monks are actively sought after over plate tanks in dungeon groups because they offer more to a group than any tank at the moment.

[Rais]

And yes, monks did tank this well in classic. You see a big difference between Monks vs Warriors after lvl 56,where warriors take the cake.

So stop crying.

[Zanti]

And yes, monks did tank this well in classic. You see a big difference between Monks vs Warriors after lvl 56,where warriors take the cake.

So stop crying.

You see no such difference. Ive had monks tank emperor chottal and the spore king without any problems so where then is the benefit of plate? Groups don't want hybrids because they have low dps and their penalty hits the whole group, they don't want warriors because they have to hold back on dps to keep mobs on one person. Right now in seb a PUG group is camping disco 1 and 2 with monk, cleric, chanter, 3 rogues with 0 med time needed.

Why then would you want anything else outside of a raid?

[Slust]

Hybrid exp penalties do not effect the entire group. They don't give cooties, contrary to (popular?) belief.

When a mob dies, the first thing that is calculated is how much exp everyone gets. Using the delicious pie example, 100% of the pie is distributed based upon the levels of everyone in the group. Once this is determined, then the exp penalties get applied, per individual.

So everyone gets their slice of the pie. Then right before each person eats their slice, the penalties hit and anyone with an exp penalty gets a piece of their pie cut off before consumption. If it isn't working like this, then it's a bug. :)

Also the ability to tank != the efficiency of tanking. Plate is meant to give a constant mitigation that gives healers more time to react; since the incoming damage is constant and not bursty, it is much easier for a healer to say "At 30%, I'm going to heal" and know the tank is probably going to make it until then, whereas a Monk is subject to failing a couple avoidance checks and taking more damage more unpredictably.

[Rais]

I personally want a warrior in my group. I play a 60 monk, and I can tell a huge difference between me and a 60 warrior. Sure I CAN tank anything. Hell I tanked Emp when I was lvl 54 on test. Was pretty close battle, but it was mainly due to his life taps.

A monk tanking effectively dicks his dps.The monk just might do the same dps as a Warrior while tanking, maybe little more. I can throw out some %, but you won't understand it.

Using your example of a Monk Cleric 3 Rogues and enchanter as poof. Lol really? ANY GROUP with 3 rogues, enchanter, and cleric won't much any down time. A fucking ranger can tank that group and be fine.

Here I'll lend you some links, so you know as to why Monks WERE nerfed, but in velious. It had nothing to do with monks, it was everything to do with Warriors. Of course in Planes of Power Varent decided to change things back because Monks weren't OP tanking.They FIXED Warriors.

It was mainly 1 person up in arms about it. You should have seen when he would have a shitfit when Denron or Daahoud would tank better than him on raids. It made raids so much fun when Furor would rant. He just used monks as examples, and they got hit.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?p=10424

http://www.erollisimarr.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-12437.html

[goodthink]

monk mit was nerfed until some time after the launch of luclin. I clearly remember the nerf affecting my beastlord AND monk.

It was part of classic, and the fact remains warriors were/are still the best at raid mobs.

[Rais]

Here is another good link.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-3941.html

The monk nerf is probably the silliest thing that VI did in hindsight.
They nerfed monks for 2 things that added up to one reason.
a) poor itemization. Prepop monks could get too close in AC
to thier plate counterparts
b) low mob attacks. Prepop mobs had a low attack.
a+b = prepop Monks came very close to warrior/plate mitigation yet had an avoidance edge.

Problem you'll notice is the timinig of the nerf, and words "prepop"
It was what only a couple weeks till POP came out? POP
fixed A+B itself. Monks no longer come close to plates in AC.
And AC does matter vs high attack mobs.

[Numbers_]

We are primarily talking about the 50+ game where monks are actively sought after over plate tanks in dungeon groups because they offer more to a group than any tank at the moment.

Ok, fair enough.

Are you implying that monks now aren't the way they were during kunark around this time of development or are you saying you want the dev's to nerf monks despite that being the way it actually was? (and i'm not saying they were that way, I honestly don't know)

I mean there are a lot of balance issues that were left in because that's the way it was. I don't necessarily agree with that perspective, but that's what they are going for here. Why start with nerfing monks? Why not start with something horrible like the hybrid penalty or something if you're going to start changing things.

[Doors]

Monk mitigation isn't high enough.

[Hasbinbad]

None of this matters because AC as a whole is borked on p99.. it just doesn't work. You guys are barking up the wrong tree.

[Breuce]

I really wish I had more actual valuable input to add, but since I play a low 30s nec on P99 I don't.

However, I will say that Kunark was truly where monks shined and many people who didn't play monk didn't recognize it even back then. I played a monk main through the years, and Monks could really tank like mofos, until the very high levels/raid mob types. I used to 'prefer' having a war in the group to tank, but decently geared we could tank our faces off and it wasn't a necessity, especially in single group EXP type stuff.

I don't know if monk AC is borked in p99. I can't comment on that.

But I do remember quite well how powerful monks were on live, and I will say their tanking abilities were quite underrated... remember, this was still a period where many people who rolled monks were trying as hard as they could to max AGI and DEX for some reason. With a bunch of solid AC/HP gear and good weapons, we fell behind in tanking in the high levels for two reasons:

A)Our HP was low, and our Mitigation was low enough that boss, raid level mobs would brutalize us and our tanking was so inconsistent that trying to run CHeal chains on us was hilariously futile. Tanking mobs significantly higher level than us = death trap, in just about every situation you can imagine.

B)We. Didn't. Have. Taunt. We had disarm though, and a lot of us used it really hard, pretending it was that useful for aggro.

Other than that, a well geared well played Monk could tank like an absolute mofo in an awful lot of situations. Don't worry, if the timeline follows right, near the end of Velious we'll take a huge Mitigation nerf, and we'll share our best weapons with wars, pals and all the others, and we'll all bitch about it more than you all can handle

[Hoggen]

There are no details given for mitigation, but a major melee overhaul was done in the October 8, 2001 patch. I recall from memory our monk complaining about mitigation nerf at that time (pre-Luclin), but can give no specifics, and the links that told said specifics no longer exist that I can find.

[Numbers_]

Nevermind what I posted was irrelevant.

You can check out patch notes here (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches.html) tho

Anyone see anything about a mitigation nerf pre-luclin? I keep seeing people talk about it, but after looking through that link, I can't find anything. Maybe i'm blind or missed it? Wouldn't be the first time...

[Massive Marc]

http://www.erollisimarr.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-12437.html

What a blast from the past. Although that thread turns into the "Anti Furor Thread" It was a good read. The whole EQ apocalypse and birth of WoW threads are pretty entertaining.

[wehrmacht]

Just curious, who are you? Would love if you're the monk who taught me how to pull nToV!

Fraud


However, I will say that Kunark was truly where monks shined and many people who didn't play monk didn't recognize it even back then.

Yea, I saw someone complain about monks being able to solo camps in Karnors. I could solo the jail in Karnors at 57 with monk epic & 13/21 offhand during velious. Most hits from skeletal guardians would be for high damage and I really didn't mitigate anything, I did avoid a good bit of hits though. The DPS was pretty high and the mobs didn't really have that much HP so even if I got hit for max damage every time I'd probably still have killed them.

I remember having to fight Call of Sathir every time he spawned, I could also solo him but I think I needed to have 100% hp and mend up and if slow landed, think I had to run.

[baalzy]

Hybrid exp penalties do not effect the entire group. They don't give cooties, contrary to (popular?) belief.

When a mob dies, the first thing that is calculated is how much exp everyone gets. Using the delicious pie example, 100% of the pie is distributed based upon the levels of everyone in the group. Once this is determined, then the exp penalties get applied, per individual.

So everyone gets their slice of the pie. Then right before each person eats their slice, the penalties hit and anyone with an exp penalty gets a piece of their pie cut off before consumption. If it isn't working like this, then it's a bug. :

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. I'm on my phone right now so giving you Tue link is too annoying. To do but just search for one of the other thousand topics on this where you are proven wrong. There is even a patch note from soe that details how class penalties we're shared with the group until it was changed a month after velious

[baalzy]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=287919#post287919

[Reptak]

Also the ability to tank != the efficiency of tanking. Plate is meant to give a constant mitigation that gives healers more time to react; since the incoming damage is constant and not bursty, it is much easier for a healer to say "At 30%, I'm going to heal" and know the tank is probably going to make it until then, whereas a Monk is subject to failing a couple avoidance checks and taking more damage more unpredictably.

^

Monks are good dungeon group members because we can dps OR tank. Our avoidance is great, but I don't see how you think our mitigation is too good (or different than 10 years ago). The damage I take is erratic and a cleric needs to be on his or her toes. When I get hit, I get hit big...and like everything in EQ, it comes in streaks. On normal exp mobs this is no big deal. But on anything non-trivial, believe me, I would rather have a plate class tanking. And tbh, I would always rather have a plate class tank 'cause my dps is horrible when tanking and I would rather duck out when the mob is at 30% to bring more exp bags to the group.

Monks took a big nerf in Luclin, no doubt. But it ain't happening here. And thank god. We are a strong class but nothing OP. We are maybe #4 at tanking and #2 at melee dps (maybe). And the best part about being a monk is that having 2 or even 3 is not a problem, and even desired, unlike most classes.

But please...just because we "can" tank, doesn't mean we are preferred tanks.