Bard vs. Rogue

[Muligan21]

Hey guys, i've dabbled in Project 1999 for sometime now and with Rift slowing down i've finally made the jump to P99. I'm having a hard time deciding which class would be more beneficial or needed on the server. I have rolled a bard but some of my friends seem to think I would have a hard time getting a group or even into a raiding guild.

I have played a cleric in EQ for nearly a decade and have healed in nearly every MMO to date at the raid level. I really want to do something different.

Any and all guidance would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks,
Muli

[Versus]

As a bard you won't have trouble finding groups (until maybe 50+ when everyone would rather have an enchanter???). But at that point, you can just kite raptors in TD I guess..

As far as the raid scene goes, you will be welcomed with open arms to a raid guild. Bards are a huge asset to a raid and always wanted.

[maestrom]

Bards require a degree of attention and dedication not required of other classes. If you look away from the screen for even a second as a bard, your group is going to notice. You also have to deal with the fact that you'll never be able to do significant amounts of DPS.

However there are a lot of benefits to being a bard.

-Best looking class out there. A bard in full lambent is the best looking class ever and thats a proven fact.
-Selos. We get the fastest movement speed buff in the game and we get it at level 5.
-When things go horribly wrong, it's rarely the bards fault. We don't have to hold aggro, we don't have to land big heals at the right time. There are enough monks on this server that you shouldn't have to be splitting and pulling as a bard much (but you should learn how).
-Endless amounts of utility. We can haste, we can regen, we can DS, we can buff resists, we can buff stats, we can mez, we can dot, we can invis, we can lev. There are very few things bards cannot do. (can't bind...)
-Hands down the best solo-leveling class in the game. A good bard will outlevel any other class in the game by AE kiting. Depending on where you are, you can get an entire level in less than an hour, and you can do it naked.

Rogues can stand behind a mob and hit backstab every few seconds. sneak/hide?

[Muligan21]

Sounds a lot like it always has been. Being a healer my entire MMO career, being attentive is just part of the game for me (though it would be nice to be a "little" bit lax/lazy.)

I know this a terrible thing to ask but I do have a lot of catching up to do... Are there guilds out there recruiting that would help the leveling process along (lower level grouping, plenty of tradeskillers, family/supportive atmosphere)

Still a little torn between the two classes but I've always liked bards, especially during the Kunark era. I had a bard as my alt through most games.

[Numbers_]

Damn maestrom, you're making me want to keep leveling my little level 5 bard I had set aside. Damn this altitus!!

[Lazortag]

As a bard you won't have trouble finding groups (until maybe 50+ when everyone would rather have an enchanter???). But at that point, you can just kite raptors in TD I guess..


The things that some (very misguided) people prefer about enchanters don't really change from 50+. Enchanters get C2, but Bards get a more powerful manasong as well. The only thing that changes that I can think of is that Enchanters get an unresistable mez, so they're definitely better for camps where the mobs are level 56+, but mobs of that level are rarely efficient exp even at 60. So you may have trouble finding groups for some high level item camps, but you should never have trouble finding exp groups.

[Azazel]

How does a bard get a more powerful manasong?

[Pescador]

cantata of replenishment is an hp / mana regen buff that stacks with chorus of clarity.

[Lazortag]

How does a bard get a more powerful manasong?

By "more powerful" I didn't mean "more powerful than C2" in case that was what you thought I meant, I just meant "more powerful than chorus of clarity". My point is kind of that the differences between Bards/Enc's scale accordingly even at higher levels.

[Supaskillz]

But if you are a rogue you can dps like me

[Estu]

Are there guilds out there recruiting that would help the leveling process along (lower level grouping, plenty of tradeskillers, family/supportive atmosphere)

LifeAlert is such a guild. I'm an officer, so if you see one of my characters online, I can invite you; otherwise, you can do a /who all LifeAlert and send tells to people asking if any officers are online. We're well-populated and have a lot of low-to-mid level players.

As for the original question, both bards and rogues are highly sought-after for groups, but bards are a lot less monotonous to play. However, they're also a pain in the ass to play, as you constantly have to be twisting songs. If you want to play a bard, though, you should have little trouble finding groups (and unlike a rogue, if no groups are available, you can solo).

[Splorf22]

So maybe this comes from my viewpoint as an enchanter, but I really just don't see how bards stack up at higher levels.

I guess enchanters and bards are pretty comparable for mana regen and crowd control. But enchanters get 65-70% haste compared to 45% bard haste - that's 15% faster killing right there, not to mention a charmed pet (even a post-nerf LB one) doing 40-50 dps, and 65-70% attack slow for tough mobs (very useful with no shaman) and stuns to interrupt casters. Plus your party has a much bigger chance living when the puller fucks up and brings 5+ mobs with an enchanter (although its probalby not great with either). And the cherry on the cake is we don't bring a 40% XP penalty.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing my twink bard. And bards are without doubt faster levelers with AE kiting and much more useful on raids with twisting mana regen and resist buffing songs. And I'm sure the bard epic will make things much more competitive.

[Muligan21]

Thanks so much guys for the insight... i'm going to keep my Bard and just go with it. I'm looking so forward to playing a game where so many things actually "matter"...

I miss that so much about games. The way armor is obtained, the dependency on others, camaraderie, etc.

If you ever need anything the name is Muligan, though I am no longer a cleric and probably not as "needed" in more emergency situations, but I have and am always happy to help.

Muligan
Bard of P99
Form Dark Elf Cleric of Lanys

[Pescador]

just a disclaimer, in a full group, a bard should be a 5% exp penalty for each person in the group, if I understand it correctly.

[Pescador]

err like 6.7%, i can't do maths on saturday.

[maestrom]

err like 6.7%, i can't do maths on saturday.

Not exactly. The bard experience penalty does not transfer to other group members directly. when the game divides up experience when a mob is killed, the only thing the game cares about is how much pure total experience each member of the group has.

Group member A has 5000 total experience
Group member B has 5500 total experience
Group member C has 6000 total experience
and Group member D has total 5500 experience

The game will award the largest portion of experience to group member C because that member has the most experience. Group members B and D will receive the same amount of experience (the second largest portion) and group member A will receive the least amount of experience.

Group member A could be a level 32 warrior or a level 28 bard, or a level 30 cleric.

The moral of the story is (stolen from the wiki) group with people who have similar exp totals.

[Gaimcap]

But enchanters get 65-70% haste compared to 45% bard haste - that's 15% faster killing right there, not to mention a charmed pet (even a post-nerf LB one) doing 40-50 dps, and 65-70% attack slow for tough mobs (very useful with no shaman) and stuns to interrupt casters.

*shrug* don't bard song hastes stack with regular spell hastes? Bring em both or bring a Shm (who can give 50% haste as well) and then you get a double shot of haste :O.

[Tiggles]

Be a rogue like me.

[maestrom]

*shrug* don't bard song hastes stack with regular spell hastes? Bring em both or bring a Shm (who can give 50% haste as well) and then you get a double shot of haste :O.

Normal bard haste does NOT stack with enchanter haste. In Velious, two new bard songs, Melody of Ervaj(lvl 51 5% haste) and Composition of Ervaj(level 60 10% haste), are added which will stack with any form of haste but will not not break the haste cap. However, currently there are only 2 flavors of haste, Item haste and Spell haste(all bard songs fall under this category for now).

[Duma]

*shrug* don't bard song hastes stack with regular spell hastes? Bring em both or bring a Shm (who can give 50% haste as well) and then you get a double shot of haste :O.

No. But all stat buffs and damage shields on haste songs stack with everything.

Bards 51 snare slow is 35/65% @ L60 but its also a huge AGI and AC debuff that stacks with cripple but gets bumped off as long as a larger slow or snare is on the mob.

[nambar]

The things that some (very misguided) people prefer about enchanters don't really change from 50+. Enchanters get C2, but Bards get a more powerful manasong as well. The only thing that changes that I can think of is that Enchanters get an unresistable mez, so they're definitely better for camps where the mobs are level 56+, but mobs of that level are rarely efficient exp even at 60. So you may have trouble finding groups for some high level item camps, but you should never have trouble finding exp groups.

Sorry, an enchanter is always superior to a bard. Not only do they have better haste and mana regen, they do more DPS, can pull more mobs and mez more mobs. I also don't have to deal with the hybrid penalty.

The very best bard versus the very best enchanter in an exp group situation, the enchanter brings more to the table every time. Bards can do more things, but exp groups don't need you to do more things, just do a couple well. I'll take an enchanter with a charmed pet chain pulling.

[Lazortag]

Sorry, an enchanter is always superior to a bard. Not only do they have better haste and mana regen, they do more DPS, can pull more mobs and mez more mobs. I also don't have to deal with the hybrid penalty.

The very best bard versus the very best enchanter in an exp group situation, the enchanter brings more to the table every time. Bards can do more things, but exp groups don't need you to do more things, just do a couple well. I'll take an enchanter with a charmed pet chain pulling.

I've posted on this a number of times so I'm just going to link an old post I made about this:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=280479&postcount=27

After thinking about this more I'm willing to concede that a very skilled Bard is slightly worse than a very skilled enchanter in exp groups (mostly because when I posted that, Charm was nerfed way worse than now), but the people acting like the enchanter is much better, or always better, are not accounting for Bards who may just be more skilled. In fact I think the people saying this have very little experience grouping with good Bards. I've definitely been in groups that could have cleared more mobs faster with me in the group instead of an average enchanter.

[Splorf22]

Yeah but CC is like 20% of what I do. At level 60 I can finally charm level 49 guys again with malo (I could do that at 54 prenerf). He was doing 75 dps. Combine that with better haste/slow/clarity and how can a bard compete with that?

[senna]

is it bard vs rogue or bard vs chanter?

so confused

[Teeroyoyort]

I was going to write up this big badass thing about how bards are badass, but I opt'd not. Bard isn't for everyone. If you're super attentive and can react positive for every situation that comes your way bard is for you! But I wouldn't recommend for your 1st class.

[Stormhowl]

I can only give my two cents on Bard, since I never played a rogue past 10ish. They're a great class if you love versatility, being that they can bring nearly every buff or debuff to the table in some form or another. I can't remember a time where someone didn't want a bard in their group; they fit in nearly everywhere there's a slot open (except for tank and healer, for obvious reasons). They're great pullers, and they get an array of utility abilities such as Tracking, Safe Fall, and Lock Picking.

However, for bards you need to learn how to twist songs (if you get the timing right between ticks, you can have as many as 4 songs going at once, but it takes constant attention to maintain; macros will not work) and if you don't have the patience to be constantly be switching songs, I wouldn't recommend the class. It's almost masochistic to play. ;)

[Lill-Leif]

I can only give my two cents on Bard, since I never played a rogue past 10ish. They're a great class if you love versatility, being that they can bring nearly every buff or debuff to the table in some form or another. I can't remember a time where someone didn't want a bard in their group; they fit in nearly everywhere there's a slot open (except for tank and healer, for obvious reasons). They're great pullers, and they get an array of utility abilities such as Tracking, Safe Fall, and Lock Picking.

However, for bards you need to learn how to twist songs (if you get the timing right between ticks, you can have as many as 4 songs going at once, but it takes constant attention to maintain; macros will not work) and if you don't have the patience to be constantly be switching songs, I wouldn't recommend the class. It's almost masochistic to play. ;)

Yeah, safe fall and lock picking is a must in every group!

[Dr4z3r]

Yeah but CC is like 20% of what I do. At level 60 I can finally charm level 49 guys again with malo (I could do that at 54 prenerf). He was doing 75 dps. Combine that with better haste/slow/clarity and how can a bard compete with that?

Bards don't need mana.

Sure, a smart enchanter will "never" run out of mana with c2 and manatap, but a bard is always at 100% effectiveness, mana or no.

[Tarathiel]

Chanters are pretty cool... So are bards... I would take either in an xp group as I am not a classist like a lot of people... That being said...all > rogues

[Stormhowl]

Yeah, safe fall and lock picking is a must in every group!

That's not what I said, but I appreciate having words stuffed into my mouth.

[falkun]

Back to the original BARD vs. ROGUE debate:

Bard:
+ Can do a little bit of everything. I've even found ways to "fit" in with a group that already had a chanter and shaman.
+ Track (especially with how low the ranger population is)
+ Fastest soloing in the game.
+ Solid group support.
+ ALWAYS doing something.
- ALWAYS doing something.
- little DPS, groups bring you for your support, not your large numbers.
- bard sneak/hide/lock pick is vastly inferior to rogue version

Rogue:
+ melee are top dogs in DPS in classic, this won't change until foci and AA (which are not planned at this time for P99 server)
+ highest melee DPS in the game (especially after epics come out)
+ easy epic
+ best invis in game (hide/sneak)
- straight DPS, you bring the pain...and that's about it
- not as much to do, backstab and aggro dump are all you do in combat

I'm sure there's ton's I'm missing, but if you want to have a nice, "classic" chill time while still being wanted in groups for your DPS, roll a rogue. If you want to always be busy, roll a bard.

[Dr4z3r]

+ ALWAYS doing something.
- ALWAYS doing something.

Truth.

[baalzy]

Back to the original BARD vs. ROGUE debate:

Bard:
+ Can do a little bit of everything. I've even found ways to "fit" in with a group that already had a chanter and shaman.
+ Track (especially with how low the ranger population is)
+ Fastest soloing in the game.
+ Solid group support.
+ ALWAYS doing something.
- ALWAYS doing something.
- little DPS, groups bring you for your support, not your large numbers.
- bard sneak/hide/lock pick is vastly inferior to rogue version

Rogue:
+ melee are top dogs in DPS in classic, this won't change until foci and AA (which are not planned at this time for P99 server)
+ highest melee DPS in the game (especially after epics come out)
+ easy epic
+ best invis in game (hide/sneak)
- straight DPS, you bring the pain...and that's about it
- not as much to do, backstab and aggro dump are all you do in combat

I'm sure there's ton's I'm missing, but if you want to have a nice, "classic" chill time while still being wanted in groups for your DPS, roll a rogue. If you want to always be busy, roll a bard.

Just gunna address the bolded part.

Rogue poisons can be very effective debuffs, although they're a pain to level up and too expensive to use in an xp group they can actually be quiet useful against bosses, I'm fairly certain they're unresistable.

[Tewaz]

"Whatever you are, be a good one."

-Motivational poster in my classroom.

[Harm]

From the posts here it seems like the biggest negative about being a bard is that they aren't better at being an enchanter than enchanters are. Which is a really dumb thing to say is a negative about playing a bard.

[maestrom]

From the posts here it seems like the biggest negative about being a bard is that they aren't better at being an enchanter than enchanters are. Which is a really dumb thing to say is a negative about playing a bard.

[username17]

I think the only negative is the minus to XP penalty.

Was in a DL group that was very resistant to getting a bard because of the penalty.
I could care less. They let him join, but he went LD shortly thereafter.
They claimed there was a big difference in XP.

[falkun]

They claimed there was a big difference in XP.

It's kind of like telling someone eating noodles that they're whole grain noodles. Chances are that if it was never pointed out to them, they wouldn't know the difference, but now that they know, their pasta doesn't taste as good.

People spend way too much time looking at that little yellow bar. You can experience end game long before L60, there is nothing after L60 (no AA, no more levels), so why is everyone in such a rush to get there? It's a refreshing change from WoW where the game begins at max level, why are we trying to treat P99 the same way?

[username17]

Because most people are used to that.

I doubt there's a single person here that went from playing EQ in 1999 to playing Project1999 in 2011.
There were most likely a lot of MMOs in between and you grow used to a certain type of gameplay.

[Tarathiel]

Because most people are used to that.

I doubt there's a single person here that went from playing EQ in 1999 to playing Project1999 in 2011.
There were most likely a lot of MMOs in between and you grow used to a certain type of gameplay.

i quit before velious and havent played another MMO until this... so you sir are wrong =P

[username17]

And are you a classist who stares at your XP bar and kicks bard/rangers from your groups?