Verant Logic: Necromancer vs Magician

[Gugg]

Necromancer (evil)

- Feign Death (escape all danger with a 1.5 second button click @ L17)
- Mana regen (at L60 it's like having 4 x Clarity)
- Root (root park danger)
- Snare (stay out of reach of danger)
- Fear (send danger running in the opposite direction)
- Mez (mez danger)
- Self evac (port from danger and save some time running)
- Self Heal + DPS (2 in 1 spell)
- Player heals (patch heals)
- Mana transfer (mana for group healer)
- Invis vs undead (explore some dungeons and areas with impunity)
- Iksar playable (super evil race, Cabilis, FoB, Kurns, forage, extra regen & AC)
- Pet component is Bone chips (common drop)
- Locate corpse
- Summon corpse
- Rez
- Charm
- DoT

Magician (good)

- None of the above

Tune in next week for Verant Logic Part 2: SK (evil) vs Paladin (good).

[Tunabros]

think you got lore and gameplay elements mixed u, buddy

try again

also magicians can be "evil" too

[Penish]

5 coth bots and a real main would be even cooler

[Trexller]

This guy never played a mage past 20, its pretty much balanced between mage and necro. Necros trade off any fast dps for utility. In group settings mages offer higher sustained dps and utility, while necros are a jack of all - master of none. six of one half dozen of other.

Mod Rods
Call of the Hero
Summoned Utility like staff of runes, ring of flight
Self Regen
Pet heals
best DS
2nd best nukes/pbae
eye of zomm
strongest pets
Malo

[Jimjam]

Don't forget it is a massive ball ache to even get some pet spell scrolls from 20+ in the release iteration of vanilla for magician!

[Trexller]

wtb words of duress

[starkind]

this isn't wow classes aren't supposed to be balanced there supposed to be thematically kewl and different

if u don't want a magician challenge play a necromancer or wizard )

[Poetic]

I think not being able to root is the biggest horse poop for magicians and wizards, I mean even inept clerics and paladins can cast root. Just seem like a fairly uncomplicated spell for the masters of the arcane to develop....

[Gugg]

Magician (good)

- L34: Summon 100% 6 slot weight reduction bags (GIANT).

Shaman (evil)

- L5: Summon 100% 4 slot weight reduction bags (GIANT).

[starkind]

I think not being able to root is the biggest horse poop for magicians and wizards, I mean even inept clerics and paladins can cast root. Just seem like a fairly uncomplicated spell for the masters of the arcane to develop....

earth pets u can keep like 2 mobs rooted and nuke 1 down if u use

line1: /pet back off
line2: /pet attack

and another hotkey that is just pet back off

on a earth pet

[azxten]

This guy never played a mage past 20, its pretty much balanced between mage and necro. Necros trade off any fast dps for utility. In group settings mages offer higher sustained dps and utility, while necros are a jack of all - master of none. six of one half dozen of other.

Mod Rods
Call of the Hero
Summoned Utility like staff of runes, ring of flight
Self Regen
Pet heals
best DS
2nd best nukes/pbae
eye of zomm
strongest pets
Malo

I've played Mage to 60 after being a Necro fanboy and you're just wrong. Mage sucks ass compared to Necro in basically every way other than COTH.

I think Verant's mistake was that they had a "class advocate" or some kind of bullshit like that for each class and these people ended up in product meetings basically yelling about how their class needed more or less stuff. Each class ended up as it did solely based on this one person's ability to convince others within Verant. Probably Joe Cool, Necro advocate, was fucking the product manager and Neckbeard Ned, Mage advocate, was constantly talked over in meetings or was too dumb to even understand how underpowered their class was.

Not only that but I bet Necro which was insanely overpowered and got nerfed in classic then ended up with the ability to say "we got nerfed, what are we going to give Necro players to make them feel better?" And Mages it was more like, "Everything looks good. Fuck em."

This also explains why Ranger was always such a horrible joke. The advocate was probably Brad himself, Aradune, and he never even played EQ and was just snorting coke and nerfing anything he didn't like that was being reported to him as allowing players to progress too quickly thus upsetting his Sony bosses. Ranger sucks ass, can't do shit? Sounds fucking great, they'll be paying their subscription fees forever. What?!?! Necros are soloing in PoF? Damn it they'll be bored in a couple weeks and cancel, fucking nerf that shit.

[starkind]

earth pets u can keep like 2 mobs rooted and nuke 1 down if u use

line1: /pet back off
line2: /pet attack

and another hotkey that is just pet back off

on a earth pet

doesn't even need to be your highest conning pet if you dont leave it constantly in melee for a solo mob root/nuke

[Jimjam]

I think not being able to root is the biggest horse poop for magicians and wizards, I mean even inept clerics and paladins can cast root. Just seem like a fairly uncomplicated spell for the masters of the arcane to develop....

Wizards get some of the best and earliest roots ... its a big part of their class.

It's just too tempting to burn mana on nukes then hit afk for 15 mins tho.

[starkind]

I've played Mage to 60 after being a Necro fanboy and you're just wrong. Mage sucks ass compared to Necro in basically every way other than COTH.

I think Verant's mistake was that they had a "class advocate" or some kind of bullshit like that for each class and these people ended up in product meetings basically yelling about how their class needed more or less stuff. Each class ended up as it did solely based on this one person's ability to convince others within Verant. Probably Joe Cool, Necro advocate, was fucking the product manager and Neckbeard Ned, Mage advocate, was constantly talked over in meetings or was too dumb to even understand how underpowered their class was.

Not only that but I bet Necro which was insanely overpowered and got nerfed in classic then ended up with the ability to say "we got nerfed, what are we going to give Necro players to make them feel better?" And Mages it was more like, "Everything looks good. Fuck em."

This also explains why Ranger was always such a horrible joke. The advocate was probably Brad himself, Aradune, and he never even played EQ and was just snorting coke and nerfing anything he didn't like that was being reported to him as allowing players to progress too quickly thus upsetting his Sony bosses. Ranger sucks ass, can't do shit? Sounds fucking great, they'll be paying their subscription fees forever. What?!?! Necros are soloing in PoF? Damn it they'll be bored in a couple weeks and cancel, fucking nerf that shit.

explain why mages and wizards are funner and cooler than necros?

and why clerics are funner and cooler than shamans and druids?

then

i like the challenged

[Jimjam]

this isn't wow classes aren't supposed to be balanced there supposed to be thematically kewl and different

if u don't want a magician challenge play a necromancer or wizard )

Exactly! No matter how powerful a necromancer may be, it will never be a magician for those that want to play magicians.

[azxten]

This also explains why Ranger was always such a horrible joke. The advocate was probably Brad himself, Aradune, and he never even played EQ and was just snorting coke and nerfing anything he didn't like that was being reported to him as allowing players to progress too quickly thus upsetting his Sony bosses. Ranger sucks ass, can't do shit? Sounds fucking great, they'll be paying their subscription fees forever. What?!?! Necros are soloing in PoF? Damn it they'll be bored in a couple weeks and cancel, fucking nerf that shit.

Also I wish this is how P99 would approach non-classic nerfs like they've done in the past. To make P99 classic they should have the same view Verant did which was that of a business trying to make money. If people are easily soloing dragons, abusing recharged items, etc it should all be nerfed. Everything should be adjusted based on how it might be threatening pretend income and subscriptions. That would recreate "The Vision" classic experience.

[azxten]

explain why mages and wizards are funner and cooler than necros?

and why clerics are funner and cooler than shamans and druids?

then

i like the challenged

Because since their class sucks and can't solo they have to be charismatic to find groups. Same reason people like grouping with Rangers. It's funny to laugh at them knowing they have no other alternative than some kind of horribly repressive pretend soloing.

[Gugg]

doesn't even need to be your highest conning pet if you dont leave it constantly in melee for a solo mob root/nuke

Necro doesn't even need a pet.

No bone chips? No problem.

[Jibartik]

Necromancer (evil)

- Feign Death (escape all danger with a 1.5 second button click @ L17)
- Mana regen (at L60 it's like having 4 x Clarity)
- Root (root park danger)
- Snare (stay out of reach of danger)
- Fear (send danger running in the opposite direction)
- Mez (mez danger)
- Self evac (port from danger and save some time running)
- Self Heal + DPS (2 in 1 spell)
- Player heals (patch heals)
- Mana transfer (mana for group healer)
- Invis vs undead (explore some dungeons and areas with impunity)
- Iksar playable (super evil race, Cabilis, FoB, Kurns, forage, extra regen & AC)
- Pet component is Bone chips (common drop)
- Locate corpse
- Summon corpse
- Rez
- Charm
- DoT

Magician (good)

- None of the above

Tune in next week for Verant Logic Part 2: SK (evil) vs Paladin (good).

isnt it funny how OP mage is to necro lol

[Toxigen]

This guy never played a mage past 20, its pretty much balanced between mage and necro. Necros trade off any fast dps for utility. In group settings mages offer higher sustained dps and utility, while necros are a jack of all - master of none. six of one half dozen of other.

Mod Rods
Call of the Hero
Summoned Utility like staff of runes, ring of flight
Self Regen
Pet heals
best DS
2nd best nukes/pbae
eye of zomm
strongest pets
Malo

lol k whatever you gotta tell yourself

[zati]

I laugh everytime someone says their main is a mage. No sir; you are a mage with the ability to coth 2 more people than a lvl 55 cothbot.

[Gugg]

I've played Mage to 60 after being a Necro fanboy and you're just wrong. Mage sucks ass compared to Necro in basically every way other than COTH.

I think Verant's mistake was that they had a "class advocate" or some kind of bullshit like that for each class and these people ended up in product meetings basically yelling about how their class needed more or less stuff. Each class ended up as it did solely based on this one person's ability to convince others within Verant. Probably Joe Cool, Necro advocate, was fucking the product manager and Neckbeard Ned, Mage advocate, was constantly talked over in meetings or was too dumb to even understand how underpowered their class was.

Not only that but I bet Necro which was insanely overpowered and got nerfed in classic then ended up with the ability to say "we got nerfed, what are we going to give Necro players to make them feel better?" And Mages it was more like, "Everything looks good. Fuck em."

This also explains why Ranger was always such a horrible joke. The advocate was probably Brad himself, Aradune, and he never even played EQ and was just snorting coke and nerfing anything he didn't like that was being reported to him as allowing players to progress too quickly thus upsetting his Sony bosses. Ranger sucks ass, can't do shit? Sounds fucking great, they'll be paying their subscription fees forever. What?!?! Necros are soloing in PoF? Damn it they'll be bored in a couple weeks and cancel, fucking nerf that shit.

Verant created powerful items which they let drop for a while before replacing them with weaker versions (because they said these items were too powerful) but they allowed players to keep the oiginal items forever.

It's either incompetence or cheating.

[mycoolrausch]

At least the mage epic is easy to get to make up for all their shortfalls

[starkind]

the only class that ever slowed down for me solo was rogue that hit a wall at 52

and everyone wants u becuase u dont actually suck and theere's still tons of things to do

[Chortles Snortles]

i am increasingly beginning to find playing SK a bore vs NEC
it is indeed master class

[Penish]

At least the mage epic is easy to get to make up for all their shortfalls

/thread, lol

[Gustoo]

Evil classes always had lots of winning tactics because they were unpopular back when people actually roleplayed and were normal humans that wanted to be heroes instead of devils like Z boys 2020 wanna be.

Necros are best overall class outside enchanters megahax. Necro using normal easy skills is just so awesome at PVE. OP in PVP when fear was usable on no magic resists people on kelethin too tho you can't loot suicides.

[starkind]

i am increasingly beginning to find playing SK a bore vs NEC
it is indeed master class

Evil classes always had lots of winning tactics because they were unpopular back when people actually roleplayed and were normal humans that wanted to be heroes instead of devils like Z boys 2020 wanna be.

Necros are best overall class outside enchanters megahax. Necro using normal easy skills is just so awesome at PVE. OP in PVP when fear was usable on no magic resists people on kelethin too tho you can't loot suicides.

this is why there needs to be a true wizard-warrior hybrid

[unsunghero]

Even if mage was superior in power, it'll always be a worse class due to boring simplistic playstyle (unless you're into that)

Necro > mage, nerf chanters

[Swish]

Even if mage was superior in power, it'll always be a worse class due to boring simplistic playstyle (unless you're into that)

Necro > mage, nerf chanters

If you want to play a mage do it on the DeyBreak servers.

[unsunghero]

If you want to play a mage do it on the DeyBreak servers.

Ya I did, had a lev 115ish mage that I box’d with necro main on FV server there

Mages make great box chars because they come with a built in tank and require very little effort to play. Generally box groups do best with a “busy” class paired with a “passive” class. In fact everything you need to do on mags could be handled by a /castsequence macro

[starkind]

How does mage vs necro fair in pvp, lets assume no one gets the initiative they both round a hill and are fully buffed and petted up and there they are within spitting distance of each other, and they both feel like engaging (actually a bad idea for the necro to engage in that situation)

[azxten]

How does mage vs necro fair in pvp, lets assume no one gets the initiative they both round a hill and are fully buffed and petted up and there they are within spitting distance of each other, and they both feel like engaging (actually a bad idea for the necro to engage in that situation)

lol...

Necro shits all over Mage in PvP.

First, the Mage can't stop the Necro pet without lucky short term pet roots but the Necro can root the Mage pet. On a real server, unlike P99, channeling through melee hits isn't easy. Also on a real server, unlike P99, the mage pet didn't root immediately on engage and it was much more random. Plus in PvP both classes have high MR negating root but the Mage has basically nothing to negate a necro pet following them around hitting them. They can't buff their own pet's MR to any significant degree to stop the Necro rooting it.

Second, Necros can lifetap. Even if the Mage spams nukes and the Necro spams lifetap the Mage loses. This doesn't even get into Mage MR based nukes where their bolt lines are longer casting fire based and can be avoided via line of sight tricks.

Third, Necros can DoT and Mages can't. The Necro just has to put 1 high dmg fast DoT out and start life tapping. The Mage now HAS to dispell this or they will die and meanwhile is just getting lifetapped or nuked or DoTed more and is also being hit by the pet most likely.

Mage was a terrible, terrible PvP class. Absolutely terrible in any kind of classic era situation. Necro was close to OP in PvP especially in this kind of one on one situation.

I miss real PvP. I'll always remember using Ice Comet to one shot Enchanters lol. Had one Enchanter come back over and over trying everything they could and I would just one shot them every time. EQ PvP was so hilariously unbalanced.

[NotCaros]

Mages can bank and vendor in Qeynos.

Most necros probably can't...

Therefore they're completely balanced according to original devs calculus.

Later devs? They were still the same devs.

[Bardp1999]

Necro is the master class

[branamil]

Well in Velious, yes, Mages are probably the worst class. Maybe they're more balanced in later expansions. It's kind of a joke how worthless mages are. You can combine wizards and mages and they'd still be like in the worst 3 classes. If they didn't have coth there'd probably be more halfling paladins than mages logged in

[Swish]

lol...

Necro shits all over Mage in PvP.

First, the Mage can't stop the Necro pet without lucky short term pet roots but the Necro can root the Mage pet. On a real server, unlike P99, channeling through melee hits isn't easy. Also on a real server, unlike P99, the mage pet didn't root immediately on engage and it was much more random. Plus in PvP both classes have high MR negating root but the Mage has basically nothing to negate a necro pet following them around hitting them. They can't buff their own pet's MR to any significant degree to stop the Necro rooting it.

Second, Necros can lifetap. Even if the Mage spams nukes and the Necro spams lifetap the Mage loses. This doesn't even get into Mage MR based nukes where their bolt lines are longer casting fire based and can be avoided via line of sight tricks.

Third, Necros can DoT and Mages can't. The Necro just has to put 1 high dmg fast DoT out and start life tapping. The Mage now HAS to dispell this or they will die and meanwhile is just getting lifetapped or nuked or DoTed more and is also being hit by the pet most likely.

Mage was a terrible, terrible PvP class. Absolutely terrible in any kind of classic era situation. Necro was close to OP in PvP especially in this kind of one on one situation.

I miss real PvP. I'll always remember using Ice Comet to one shot Enchanters lol. Had one Enchanter come back over and over trying everything they could and I would just one shot them every time. EQ PvP was so hilariously unbalanced.

Enchanters had fun too though. Before some changes when you could charm/haste/etc the vendors it was a lot of fun to target someone trying to bank and send a hasted vendor at them. Sure the bankers are starting to come for you but a lot of the time the victim died if they couldn't gate, just spamming /pet attack at a feigned monk etc as you flee isn't going to stop the onslaught for long.

[Toxigen]

Anyone that claims necro is "jack of all, master of none" is a really shitty necro / player in general.

Hope this helps.

[starkind]

necros aren't masters of nukes :D or quad kiting or quint kiting!

necros aren't the masters of healing

necro pets are keuuwt not that great tho (unless they charmed something than it's not fair that spell is dumb)

[Trexller]

I was wrong.

They do fear kite better than any other class

A necro equipped with Staff of the Dreaded Gaze is a master of baiting

[myrddraal]

earth pets u can keep like 2 mobs rooted and nuke 1 down if u use

line1: /pet back off
line2: /pet attack

and another hotkey that is just pet back off

on a earth pet

Necro can snare pull, snare, fd, stand once split and root rot or fear kite. Mage pet bad.

[Bardp1999]

"Jack of all, Master of all" is the more fitting mantra

[starkind]

lol fair enough necro wins!!!

Nerf necro to only call of bones (skele form lich??)
nerf chanters to ony breeze?

cap charm at 30 seconds max and double mana usage and leaves a 30 minute debuff on mob that makes it so it can't be charmed again for 30 minutes

cap necro pets at sk pet levels

cap bards at 12 mobs only

buff mr on high lvl planar mobs so that u need tash, malo, and stuff to even have a 33.3333% chance of landing spells

[starkind]

increase wizard and cleric nuke DPM to 4.0 at lvl 50 and like 8.0 at lvl 60

[starkind]

maybe clerics like 6.0 at 60 and 3.5 at 50 or something so wiz can keep a slight lead wiz have snare tho which is op and cleric dont

[Trexller]

"Jack of all, Master of all" is the more fitting mantra

donating for a muzzle of mardu, or aego, or sow, or port to WC or invis

[starkind]

mage pets should be way more tankier do less than a warrior, but still hold agro really good

and mage pet nukes should have like a big resist against their modifier so -300 for water element ice pet vs cold and -300 fr for like fire pet nuke, air could be like magic -100 or 150 and mage nukes should all have -150 fr, but their shock blade spells should still be flat -0 mr based thats for when there is like no way to land them at all period would make mages more fair and balanced in the new pecking order

[unsunghero]

mage pets should be way more tankier do less than a warrior, but still hold agro really good

and mage pet nukes should have like a big resist against their modifier so -300 for water element ice pet vs cold and -300 fr for like fire pet nuke, air could be like magic -100 or 150 and mage nukes should all have -150 fr, but their shock blade spells should still be flat -0 mr based thats for when there is like no way to land them at all period would make mages more fair and balanced in the new pecking order

At one point they were. This was in retail, but there was a point where earring pet focus items were broken OP (I remember having like pet focus 15 or so), and made mage pets better tanks than actual tanks. They were still boring to play, they could do their line of site bolts and the only new thing at level 115 when I was playing was they could summon this second pet, this little temporary gargoyle, over and over, which could offtank a mob and do huge damage, like 5,000ish damage quads with the little guy. They also had AA’s which let them double-nuke on their next nuke for huge burst

Wizards became the rightful kings of dps with instant ways to get huge chunks of mana back, and rogues were given a bunch of various poisons that were actually useful. I didn’t pay a ton of attention to other classes tho

[starkind]

ya i suppose earth pet resist affinity would be poison in my world

they'd never tank as good as a warrior in full planar

almost as good and have more hp (like not as good mitigation, just more hp) and do about as much melee damage as a bard or cleric with the right spells and buffs going including their proc

[Bardp1999]

donating for a muzzle of mardu, or aego, or sow, or port to WC or invis

Muzzle is a novelty item
Necro can self buff HP
Jboots
Necro can port themselves at night across entire zones via levant
WC cap and OT hammer
Instant click self invis and IVU

[starkind]

haste should be capped at like 20% and slow 20% tops for all spells

[Bardp1999]

Haste is fine, Slow is broken as fuck and should have been removed

[azxten]

Haste is fine, Slow is broken as fuck and should have been removed

Probably another broken aggro mechanic. It was interesting to find out in the bug reports forum that Enchanter mez isn't supposed to have the mem wipe component on recast.

Remember on live when Enchanters couldn't drop aggro and got their asses kicked? It's because on live if you mez a mob you get a mem wipe chance on that mez but if you remez it without mez wearing off the mem wipe doesn't occur. So everything you do to a mob while it's mezzed is stacking aggro including each remez. When the tank finally breaks mez the Enchanter has 2-3 mez aggros on them and no one is pulling that off them.

I imagine slow was similarly different on live probably tied into mob resists which are known to be broken especially raid trash and bosses. Much greater chance of resists and higher aggro.

[Trexller]

i shoulda been more clear, was suggesting that necro is only useful to themself

some serious necrophilia goin on in this thread lol

[starkind]

necro was easiest and fastest class i ever got to 50+ i quit her at 52 tho and never logged in again even to farm twink items for my alts because i was just not that impressed

clerics are more tanky and funner to play idk how else to describe the sensation of being gifted all that power and not wanting it because your pet is gross and u still have to charm to use it

[Danth]

I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but I see the magician as having a place in this game. I count it as one of several classes that's simple to play tolerably well and as such a good choice for mediocre or bad players. Such people are a fact of life in social games, so it's just as well they have places to go. Over the years I've known a number of players who could sit on something like a magician or rogue and give a fair contribution when the same person would've been a constant source of frustration and annoyance on a more complicated character.

Danth

[Snagglepuss]

I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but I see the magician as having a place in this game. I count it as one of several classes that's simple to play tolerably well and as such a good choice for mediocre or bad players. Such people are a fact of life in social games, so it's just as well they have places to go. Over the years I've known a number of players who could sit on something like a magician or rogue and give a fair contribution when the same person would've been a constant source of frustration and annoyance on a more complicated character.

Danth

Pretty accurate description. The quartermaster / pog jobs are vital to a unit. Sure anyone can do the jobs, but not everyone can or wants to be the special forces or the pull team.

[Bardp1999]

i shoulda been more clear, was suggesting that necro is only useful to themself

some serious necrophilia goin on in this thread lol

A good necro is the best groupmate you can possibly have on virtually any class for 90% of all content

[Jimjam]

A good necro is the best groupmate you can possibly have on virtually any class for 90% of all content

Man, my ranger loved duoing with necros late 50s. Close enough max haste, decent slow, regen, heals, dps, SUCH dps. Was glorious.

[Toxigen]

i shoulda been more clear, was suggesting that necro is only useful to themself

some serious necrophilia goin on in this thread lol

folks that play necros at/near skill cap will disagree

necro is one of the best additions to a group, especially when there are undead mobs to charm

sorry you dont got good necro hope this helps

[Tunabros]

best class is cleric

[starkind]

best class is cleric

I actuchually agree with tuna big time here :D

[Kohedron]

Both are shit though if we're being honest

[Swish]

folks that play necros at/near skill cap will disagree

necro is one of the best additions to a group, especially when there are undead mobs to charm

sorry you dont got good necro hope this helps

You got the active necro, probably plays a bard as well... is always casting HoT, holding charmed pet, looking over the enchanter and mezzing when their pet breaks, adding lifetaps to top up health.

Then you got the lazy bastards, summon a crap pet, don't haste it, forget to send it half the time, barely cast a spell even in a crisis, turn on Netflix and then wonder why they rarely get a group.

[Vianna]

This guy never played a mage past 20, its pretty much balanced between mage and necro. Necros trade off any fast dps for utility. In group settings mages offer higher sustained dps and utility, while necros are a jack of all - master of none. six of one half dozen of other.

Mod Rods
Call of the Hero
Summoned Utility like staff of runes, ring of flight
Self Regen
Pet heals
best DS
2nd best nukes/pbae
eye of zomm
strongest pets
Malo

No Necros are pretty much superior past 20 as well.

[Valik1016]

earth pets u can keep like 2 mobs rooted and nuke 1 down if u use

line1: /pet back off
line2: /pet attack

and another hotkey that is just pet back off

on a earth pet

I have to point out that my level 4 wizard has the Root spell.

[Zsin]

I've played Mage to 60 after being a Necro fanboy and you're just wrong. Mage sucks ass compared to Necro in basically every way other than COTH.

I think Verant's mistake was that they had a "class advocate" or some kind of bullshit like that for each class and these people ended up in product meetings basically yelling about how their class needed more or less stuff. Each class ended up as it did solely based on this one person's ability to convince others within Verant. Probably Joe Cool, Necro advocate, was fucking the product manager and Neckbeard Ned, Mage advocate, was constantly talked over in meetings or was too dumb to even understand how underpowered their class was.

Not only that but I bet Necro which was insanely overpowered and got nerfed in classic then ended up with the ability to say "we got nerfed, what are we going to give Necro players to make them feel better?" And Mages it was more like, "Everything looks good. Fuck em."

This also explains why Ranger was always such a horrible joke. The advocate was probably Brad himself, Aradune, and he never even played EQ and was just snorting coke and nerfing anything he didn't like that was being reported to him as allowing players to progress too quickly thus upsetting his Sony bosses. Ranger sucks ass, can't do shit? Sounds fucking great, they'll be paying their subscription fees forever. What?!?! Necros are soloing in PoF? Damn it they'll be bored in a couple weeks and cancel, fucking nerf that shit.

This post was a work of poetry.

[Fammaden]

You guys ok in here?

[starkind]

This post was a work of poetry.

Ya that was a good post.

[Gustoo]

A lot of classes are really good, basically all of the caster classes with mage being one of my least favorite because of lack of crowd control limiting their dungeon crawling capabilities.

Cleric
Druid
Necro
Enchanter
Wizard
Shaman
Bard

All melee lower because the mobs are physically super strong.

[Gustoo]

Also its worth noting that all the people not on this list (melee) are better in longer PVP bouts when decently geared, as the mana dependent end up having a shorter maximum fightspan as there is nothing like a fungi + so many variety of heals to make MANA come back.

Bard being the exception running rampant in outdoor zones indefinitely.

So as always, PVP makes the game balanced and 1000% better. The casters PVE efficacy versus the melees PVP endurance potential.

[Cecily]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about how absurd it is to have two people run at, swing and run past each other with swords. You know? Like they used to do in the old days, on horses.

It's impossible to take EQ PvP seriously, beyond its exceptional grief mechanics.

[starkind]

low level-1-40 untwinked ffa pvp is a lot of silly fun because its goofy af cecily thats why

it's not about griefing if ur griefing ppl on a pvp server you are 'mad'

people get called griefers all the time, but they are not really griefing they are just having fun

'lot of but' in this post but i can't fucking help it right now i'm decompensating again

[Jimjam]

low level-1-40 untwinked ffa pvp is a lot of silly fun because its goofy af cecily thats why

it's not about griefing if ur griefing ppl on a pvp server you are 'mad'

people get called griefers all the time, but they are not really griefing they are just having fun

'lot of but' in this post but i can't fucking help it right now i'm decompensating again

Fuck, did you kill someone?

[starkind]

I did :(

they denied it and said they killed themselves tho

[Cecily]

Excuse me. Killing someone and sending them on a corpse run is a grief mechanic. Killing someone and looting their items is a grief mechanic. Training someone is a grief mechanic

PVP is fundamentally (or at least on a very significant level) about causing grief to another person IRL through in game actions. It's fueled by schadenfreude in MMOs in a way you don't see in other competitive games. Not saying that's a bad thing. It's usually pretty funny. This is a view point coming a griefer.

[starkind]

I never intentionally kill anyone. The only times I really go for the killshot is when I'm outnumber and there's really no way out.

Usually if its a 1v1 honor duel or something I just joust until they win or I get them low enough they will concede, in that case I help bandage them up and either help them exp or go on their way.

Not everyone that pvps is a complete monster.

[starkind]

I never intentionally kill anyone. The only times I really go for the killshot is when I'm outnumber and there's really no way out.

Usually if its a 1v1 honor duel or something I just joust until they win or I get them low enough they will concede, in that case I help bandage them up and either help them exp or go on their way.

Not everyone that pvps is a complete monster.

1 more caveat, if I'm with a team, then I'm defending my team and it's my duty to kill the hostile aggressors, I usually support my group, even if say I group with <Guild Killaz> one day and <Guild Flower Children> the next I will switch sides, I'm loyal to my guild mates in the moment.

Rarely go out of my way to travel across the world denying pixels tho to another guild or anything like that I just like goofin.

There is no reason you have to play pvp like it's DKP dragon kill quest FTE lawyerworld. You can pvp without fighting. Like you do in pvE and all the time with your rules. And GMs and Elfcourts.

[Ovaltine]

Not everyone that pvps is a complete monster.

My group did encounter one of these monsters when trying red. Just hanging out killin stuff in MM GY, a lv 30 or 35 troll SK with a Reaver and prenerf CoS started attacking us. It was truly amazing to see a high-end EQ1 pvp'er in action. None of us had see invis so he was phasing in and out of existence with the CoS and swingin that reaver. Was really cool to see. Killed us quick. One groupmate called that loot n scoot but still grouped in MM killing mobs. I get that rules are rules, but that SK went full tard in general chat about loot n scoot and that the person was breaking the rules etc. After all that none of us logged in again and alas, the red population went from 40 to 36.

Thank you to the druid with the flower name for tryin tho.

[starkind]

My group did encounter one of these monsters when trying red. Just hanging out killin stuff in MM GY, a lv 30 or 35 troll SK with a Reaver and prenerf CoS started attacking us. It was truly amazing to see a high-end EQ1 pvp'er in action. None of us had see invis so he was phasing in and out of existence with the CoS and swingin that reaver. Was really cool to see. Killed us quick. One groupmate called that loot n scoot but still grouped in MM killing mobs. I get that rules are rules, but that SK went full tard in general chat about loot n scoot and that the person was breaking the rules etc. After all that none of us logged in again and alas, the red population went from 40 to 36.

Thank you to the druid with the flower name for tryin tho.

I agree red be like that especially after all these years there's like permanently 10 players there that is all they are locked into, they tunnel vision into that mode of gameplay.

That exists in greater numbers on blue and green though, just in different ways (in my opinion).

My takeaway - ignore those people, eventually they will go away or you will overpower them.

There are permantly worn see invis items and stuff. Consider him the dragonlord of MM - back in the day item loot would have even rewarded you for teaming up and defeating him eventually, it is possible. Some people have absolutely no sense of sportsmanship and can't bother not to use their superpowers or toys. These demons exist everywhere. At least with pvp ya'll can get bracers of the hidden or those helms with truesight and stuff and go back and get him on either a de-leveled toon or alt twinks. It happens, and it's glorious when it does.

I'm not a particularly vengeful person, a lot of people don't want to spend that much effort just to win or do something in MM and I also respect that. I have spent an equal number of nights in MM by myself, and an equal number out maneuvering these guys as well though. Play the game how you want. Some people enjoy that challenge too.

[unsunghero]

Excuse me. Killing someone and sending them on a corpse run is a grief mechanic. Killing someone and looting their items is a grief mechanic. Training someone is a grief mechanic

PVP is fundamentally (or at least on a very significant level) about causing grief to another person IRL through in game actions. It's fueled by schadenfreude in MMOs in a way you don't see in other competitive games. Not saying that's a bad thing. It's usually pretty funny. This is a view point coming a griefer.

Nah historically grieving did not mean following the accepted rules of pvp such as killing others and looting them

Griefing typically means going above and beyond to ruin someone’s gameplays experience. An example would be back in the day on pvp servers on vanilla WoW if someone really pissed me off I would sit on top of their body killing them over and over again while my guildmate was planted at the spirit healer (alternative place they could rez at) to kill them over and over again. The goal is eventually they just stop trying to rez and log off. That’s how you know you ruined your gameplay experience

I only did that a few times in my lifetime tho, normally I prefer fair pvp

[Cecily]

I think you may arguing from a sportsmanship perspective (we all agreed to these rules GG) vs my preferred sociopathic RPG experience (these rules allow me to harm you). I conflate the two because they're very hard to separate and there's going to be elements of both in anyone who can tolerate a PVP MMO. It's like... There's rules everyone agrees to, but their reason for opting into that ruleset are more way interesting.

[Cecily]

I never intentionally kill anyone. The only times I really go for the killshot is when I'm outnumber and there's really no way out.

Usually if its a 1v1 honor duel or something I just joust until they win or I get them low enough they will concede, in that case I help bandage them up and either help them exp or go on their way.

Not everyone that pvps is a complete monster.

Lol. That's so fucking lame. This guy wouldn't 1v1 my friend because he was buffed and a strong PVP class vs knights. I was a dark elf assassin dagger type with very low stun resistance, so the knight thought he had an easy fight when I challenged him after he told me to just sit there and look pretty. I was fully buffed and smoked him in a few seconds 1v1 with my friends watching. Honor was always flexible concept for my rogues.

[starkind]

What can I say. I'm all bark. No bite. And a softy. I don't like deliberately toying with people too much either. Though I've been known to engage in their mind games when posting.

Whats important about sportsmanship for me is that I'm doing it. If I can't be bothered to fight someone or share or help them or w/e I'll just /q. And play an alt. I've left my character logged in before so it could be piñata 'd before too.

I try not to be too judgey anymore if people want to race to a mob or hunt me down on their alts anymore. That's how I try to approach every situation anyway because that's how I want to be. Can't say I always FEEL like it. Most of the time. It's nice to see other people win. Provide a challenge or friendship. Or at least a speedbump. That's pvp and pve for me.

My ranger on green has spent all week at lvl 10. If I wanted, I could have turned off pvp. Shoved my gnoll teeth into some npc. Bought a combine longsword. Spent 24 hrs grinding GLS and made lvl 25 by now.

I rather enjoyed meeting all the different folks hanging out around bb though.

Fought a mage today.

They were going to win. A bear agroed their pet though, and they had to run. I left the fight with like 1% hp and followed Holly Windstalker to safety at the jaggedpine entrance. Tbh. They could probably have resummoned snipes me and ran. They let me live this time though. We chatted a bit and I rambled about how I would have beaten their pet if I had bothered to upgrade my sword from rusty.

They actually are doing this challenge before I even did the pvp thing. So that's a pretty cool synchronicity. They want to level with no outside help and no twinking or items from outside of their group. I thought that was cool. And I waxxed nostalgiac for my red99 mage I'll probably never play again. Who knows though?

[ScottBerta]

Mala not malo

[Zekayy]

That Mage epic pet tho is much better than any necro pet

[SantagarBrax]

Necros are the best class to play and have the most diverse abilities.

[derpcake2]

I've played Mage to 60 after being a Necro fanboy and you're just wrong. Mage sucks ass compared to Necro in basically every way other than COTH.

I think Verant's mistake was that they had a "class advocate" or some kind of bullshit like that for each class and these people ended up in product meetings basically yelling about how their class needed more or less stuff. Each class ended up as it did solely based on this one person's ability to convince others within Verant. Probably Joe Cool, Necro advocate, was fucking the product manager and Neckbeard Ned, Mage advocate, was constantly talked over in meetings or was too dumb to even understand how underpowered their class was.

Not only that but I bet Necro which was insanely overpowered and got nerfed in classic then ended up with the ability to say "we got nerfed, what are we going to give Necro players to make them feel better?" And Mages it was more like, "Everything looks good. Fuck em."

This also explains why Ranger was always such a horrible joke. The advocate was probably Brad himself, Aradune, and he never even played EQ and was just snorting coke and nerfing anything he didn't like that was being reported to him as allowing players to progress too quickly thus upsetting his Sony bosses. Ranger sucks ass, can't do shit? Sounds fucking great, they'll be paying their subscription fees forever. What?!?! Necros are soloing in PoF? Damn it they'll be bored in a couple weeks and cancel, fucking nerf that shit.

This 100%, and to top it off p1999 has the exact same problems.

Can't even chain pets on p1999 since agro doesn't get transferred properly.

Nothing gets done, there just aren't enough people / the right people lobbying.

Its like the 51+ pets requiring an extra level to mem them. They had no problem nerfing mage pets dps, while leaving this broken from pretty much green launch until literally yesterday.

[loramin]

This 100%, and to top it off p1999 has the exact same problems.

Can't even chain pets on p1999 since agro doesn't get transferred properly.

Nothing gets done, there just aren't enough people / the right people lobbying.

Its like the 51+ pets requiring an extra level to mem them. They had no problem nerfing mage pets dps, while leaving this broken from pretty much green launch until literally yesterday.

Maybe it's not some conspiracy of the devs to screw your class over?

Maybe it has something to do with volunteer players (like yourself) taking time out of their day to find evidence on old websites about how classic EQ works, and then submitting it to the devs, who then (when time allows, as this is 100% a volunteer exercise for them) fixes it.

And if I'm right about the above ... all you have to do is stop complaining, and start researching, to fix things :)

[starkind]

ppl forget how ez mage is compared to necro

its one of the simplest classes to play and a mage/cleric duo is insanely powerful with just like 4 buttons between them

[unsunghero]

Maybe it has something to do with volunteer players (like yourself) taking time out of their day to find evidence on old websites about how classic EQ works, and then submitting it to the devs, who then (when time allows, as this is 100% a volunteer exercise for them) fixes it

Thanks to Nilbog and devs for helping entertain me with their creation while I'm stuck at home bored for a week recovering from surgery

Also, let's not nerf enchanters/charm now that I've sunk over 8k into mine over the past week


Yes consider this a bribe ;)

[starkind]

props, guess it wouldnt hurt for me to donate again soon too

[loramin]

Thanks to Nilbog and devs for helping entertain me with their creation while I'm stuck at home bored for a week recovering from surgery

Also, let's not nerf enchanters/charm now that I've sunk over 8k into mine over the past week


Yes consider this a bribe ;)

Whether we're talking Enchanters being nerfed, Mages being nerfed, or any other class ... did you have an NES as a kid? Did you use that Game Genie thing to cheat and beat the games, or did you actually play the game as designed?

Playing pre-nerf classes here is playing with game genie. It's fun to be powerful, but I think it's more fun to play (actual) EverQuest.

[unsunghero]

Whether we're talking Enchanters being nerfed, Mages being nerfed, or any other class ... did you have an NES as a kid? Did you use that Game Genie thing to cheat and beat the games, or did you actually play the game as designed?

Playing pre-nerf classes here is playing with game genie. It's fun to be powerful, but I think it's more fun to play (actual) EverQuest.

True, but the counter-argument is someone can always choose a "challenge" mode in order to create a personal challenge without needing to have the challenge forced on everyone via nerfs. An example could be choosing to play enchanter with just the animation pet and never using charm (not really a challenge, really just more tedium), or like that guy that chose to do 1-50 solo on a warrior with only self-found gear, no twink, and clicking off every buff someone gave him. That's a pretty hardcore self-imposed challenge

I didn't own a game genie for NES games, just used to get cockblocked on some and nerd rage quit (F U BATTLETOADS)

[Hakubi]

My mage was great as a level 49 alt farming permafrost for ores. Which they nerfed and no longer drop... and then all that farm became useless because green came out and the economy tanked. He was also a human and thus worthless without wall peeking gnome privilege. It's a shame POP comes with so much baggage as classes were more fleshed out.

[cd288]

Malachite is much easier to get than bone chips lol