Cats on the Moon

[Tewaz]

I don't know why, but today I was overcome by an intense desire to play cats on the moon. New server reroll, lets hit it to the moon!




Discuss.

[Ostros]

I don't know why, but today I was overcome by an intense desire to play cats on the moon. New server reroll, lets hit it to the moon!




Discuss.

Too busy playing Lizards on the Isle.

[Stormhowl]

Cats on the Moon was the beginning of the end; that much is obvious from step one, when the expansion was named "Shadows of Luclin" (SoL = Shit outta Luck).

AAs, the Bazaar, The Nexus, and the updated graphics all killed the game. Maybe many of us were too young for it to have realized it at the time, but looking back I think many of us can see that this was the expansion, not PoP, that killed the game, because it killed the community by reducing the reliance on Druids/Wizards for ports and eliminated the need to interact with people to trade. Things like AAs, which added never ending progression at 60 and created a schism between fresh 60s and veterans, and the updated graphics engine which forced many people to upgrade their comps when previously there was not a need for such a thing, only added insult to injury.

Even if everything was left as is; new zones with one or two connecting points (e.g., only allowing travel to Luclin via the Dreadlands spires where the Combine originally left from), the graphics engine was left alone, AAs weren't added, Shadow Haven wasn't some "one stop shop" for all your basic needs, and the Bazaar was absolutely obliterated from all memory, I still think Luclin was an absurd expansion. How many of us can actually pronounce the names of many of the higher end monsters? How many felt this diverged from both lore (the combine empire was supposed to be long gone, was it not?) and common fantasy archetypes?

Game would've been fine if we expanded some of Odus, Antonica, and Faydwer (look at a Kunark-era world map; notice a lot of places that were never in the game until like the 12th expansion?) and if they added Kerras as a playable race starting on the island west of Toxxulia.

There, I discussed. :P

[garyogburn]

Cats on the Moon was the beginning of the end; that much is obvious from step one, when the expansion was named "Shadows of Luclin" (SoL = Shit outta Luck).

AAs, the Bazaar, The Nexus, and the updated graphics all killed the game. Maybe many of us were too young for it to have realized it at the time, but looking back I think many of us can see that this was the expansion, not PoP, that killed the game, because it killed the community by reducing the reliance on Druids/Wizards for ports and eliminated the need to interact with people to trade. Things like AAs, which added never ending progression at 60 and created a schism between fresh 60s and veterans, and the updated graphics engine which forced many people to upgrade their comps when previously there was not a need for such a thing, only added insult to injury.

Even if everything was left as is; new zones with one or two connecting points (e.g., only allowing travel to Luclin via the Dreadlands spires where the Combine originally left from), the graphics engine was left alone, AAs weren't added, Shadow Haven wasn't some "one stop shop" for all your basic needs, and the Bazaar was absolutely obliterated from all memory, I still think Luclin was an absurd expansion. How many of us can actually pronounce the names of many of the higher end monsters? How many felt this diverged from both lore (the combine empire was supposed to be long gone, was it not?) and common fantasy archetypes?

Game would've been fine if we expanded some of Odus, Antonica, and Faydwer (look at a Kunark-era world map; notice a lot of places that were never in the game until like the 12th expansion?) and if they added Kerras as a playable race starting on the island west of Toxxulia.

There, I discussed. :P

I disagree with a few of your points.

I dont see how relying on something other than wizards and druids ruined anything. TBH, its a pita to both the porter and portee, and most people enjoy traveling by foot. I mean ports are just an easier way to get someplace, which by your definition is a bad thing. Youd meet alot more players running to a location rather than being ported directly to it.

AAs were a great addition to the game. They added a way for you to increase individuality of your toon, and made it so you could choose which aspects of your class you liked the best to become more effective. Later on, AAs became required, which I also had a problem with, but in Luclin it was fantastic, imo.

Im on the fence about the bazaar, I think alot of people on this server (myself included) dont have hours to sit in EC auctioning, and simply avoid the zone and vendor most of the gear I find. I like the player interaction, but I dont think its as beneficial as everyone says it is.

As for Luclin being "absurd" storyline/archtype wise, I think thats a bit silly seeing as fantasy covers more than just orcs and dragons. I like that it broadened things up a bit, as I think if they just did another dragon/god combo expansion things would have gotten stale quickly.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I don't know why, but today I was overcome by an intense desire to play cats on the moon. New server reroll, lets hit it to the moon!

Discuss.

You are about to be injured... :D

/em hands Tewaz Kevlar vest and hides behind nearest rock...

[Rotted_Corpse]

Luclin was a great expac. The last of the classic expac's IMO. It had great advancements for all classes. It had something for every lvl player in the game (and type be it raider or casual). And the graphics rocked! Best expac imo.

The beginning of the end was PoP. Where raiding took over the focus of game play. Though I really enjoyed raiding and did it all through PoP and for a few expac's past (and all through the classic expac's). This is where the line was drawn in the sand IMO.

Where they sealed the deal was with the advent of instancing where they could do "lazy mans" (or budget cutting if you think that way) content programming and just multiply the same zone over and over to add content instead of adding real content.

For me Luclin is #1 and is the last of the great classic expac's. Then Velious and then Kunark (and the orig eq). :)

Rotted Corpse
Necromancer of Cabilis

[Barkingturtle]

Was the bazaar even fully implemented before PoP?

I mean, I remember the zone came out with Luclin, but it didn't function for a long time if I recall correctly. I know I remember buying a centi longsword in the tunnel.

[Rotted_Corpse]

Was the bazaar even fully implemented before PoP?

I mean, I remember the zone came out with Luclin, but it didn't function for a long time if I recall correctly. I know I remember buying a centi longsword in the tunnel.

It was implemented with a patch just before PoP came out.

[Dravingar]

I think it's silly that people rage so hard over the bazaar when the forums are more or less text based bazaar system.

[Stormhowl]

I think it's silly that people rage so hard over the bazaar when the forums are more or less text based bazaar system.

The difference between EC Tunnel and the Bazaar, even if you account for the forums:

The Bazaar requires 0 player interaction, there's no trading, bartering, or haggling. Just set prices and go to bed / work.

At least EC and the forums require people to interact and talk, and there's some flexibility in how people want to sell their stuff (e.g., it's pretty common for people to ask for something like "100pp or Bard gear" when selling something) and when someone undercuts you, or if there's multiple people selling the same thing, you can respond immediately to raise interest in your wares rather than competing with a bunch of statues with AFK tags next to their names.

[Rotted_Corpse]

The difference between EC Tunnel and the Bazaar, even if you account for the forums:

The Bazaar requires 0 player interaction, there's no trading, bartering, or haggling. Just set prices and go to bed / work.

At least EC and the forums require people to interact and talk, and there's some flexibility in how people want to sell their stuff (e.g., it's pretty common for people to ask for something like "100pp or Bard gear" when selling something) and when someone undercuts you, or if there's multiple people selling the same thing, you can respond immediately to raise interest in your wares rather than competing with a bunch of statues with AFK tags next to their names.

Don't know about you or others but I bartered a TON in the bazaar still. And the loss of items that are now vendored instead of sold in the tunnel is many.

[SpartanEQ]

Cats on the Moon was the beginning of the end; that much is obvious from step one, when the expansion was named "Shadows of Luclin" (SoL = Shit outta Luck).

AAs, the Bazaar, The Nexus, and the updated graphics all killed the game. Maybe many of us were too young for it to have realized it at the time, but looking back I think many of us can see that this was the expansion, not PoP, that killed the game, because it killed the community by reducing the reliance on Druids/Wizards for ports and eliminated the need to interact with people to trade. Things like AAs, which added never ending progression at 60 and created a schism between fresh 60s and veterans, and the updated graphics engine which forced many people to upgrade their comps when previously there was not a need for such a thing, only added insult to injury.

Even if everything was left as is; new zones with one or two connecting points (e.g., only allowing travel to Luclin via the Dreadlands spires where the Combine originally left from), the graphics engine was left alone, AAs weren't added, Shadow Haven wasn't some "one stop shop" for all your basic needs, and the Bazaar was absolutely obliterated from all memory, I still think Luclin was an absurd expansion. How many of us can actually pronounce the names of many of the higher end monsters? How many felt this diverged from both lore (the combine empire was supposed to be long gone, was it not?) and common fantasy archetypes?

Game would've been fine if we expanded some of Odus, Antonica, and Faydwer (look at a Kunark-era world map; notice a lot of places that were never in the game until like the 12th expansion?) and if they added Kerras as a playable race starting on the island west of Toxxulia.

There, I discussed. :P

I agree with pretty much everything here. For me personally, EQ <i>completely</i> died when LDoN came out, but yeah, just up through Velious is enough unless only some of the things mentioned above can be implemented (no Bazaar or porting stones, etc.).

I loved Luclin when it came out, but looking back on it I realize that it was just the beginning of a big flame-out. It was relatively short-term satisfaction.

I don't know that the population on the P99 server is large enough for that much expansion anyway. Some guilds would be happy about new raiding spots, but there sure would be a bunch of abandoned zones out there.

A lot of MMOs that followed EQ borrowed from stuff implemented post-Luclin, and it's a big reason why I play here and not there.

[Appaullo]

Maybe its just a nostalgia thing for me, but I did love Luclin. I also really enjoyed PoP. I'm not saying this server should implement them. Its just that for me a lot of my fondest gaming memories came from EQ. From about a month or two after EQ's launch to Omens of War (thats when my interest began to wane) I have to smile happily at the memories. Its why I'm here on this server today.

Although I dont get to play as much as I did a few months ago, I still really enjoy the time I spend here. I miss most of my old chums, but hey, what can you do?

Appaullo

[Doors]

Not to mention Luclin was the beginning of the end of twinking. I enjoyed twinking on this game more than I enjoyed the end game. Velious is the golden age of twinking, as the droppable shit from Velious areas was sick beyond belief for low level toons.

[Rotted_Corpse]

Not to mention Luclin was the beginning of the end of twinking. I enjoyed twinking on this game more than I enjoyed the end game. Velious is the golden age of twinking, as the droppable shit from Velious areas was sick beyond belief for low level toons.

There were still lots of Items in luclin you could twink with.

[mwatt]

Cats on the Moon was the beginning of the end; that much is obvious from step one, when the expansion was named "Shadows of Luclin" (SoL = Shit outta Luck).

AAs, the Bazaar, The Nexus, and the updated graphics all killed the game. Maybe many of us were too young for it to have realized it at the time, but looking back I think many of us can see that this was the expansion, not PoP, that killed the game, because it killed the community by reducing the reliance on Druids/Wizards for ports and eliminated the need to interact with people to trade. Things like AAs, which added never ending progression at 60 and created a schism between fresh 60s and veterans, and the updated graphics engine which forced many people to upgrade their comps when previously there was not a need for such a thing, only added insult to injury.

Even if everything was left as is; new zones with one or two connecting points (e.g., only allowing travel to Luclin via the Dreadlands spires where the Combine originally left from), the graphics engine was left alone, AAs weren't added, Shadow Haven wasn't some "one stop shop" for all your basic needs, and the Bazaar was absolutely obliterated from all memory, I still think Luclin was an absurd expansion. How many of us can actually pronounce the names of many of the higher end monsters? How many felt this diverged from both lore (the combine empire was supposed to be long gone, was it not?) and common fantasy archetypes?

Game would've been fine if we expanded some of Odus, Antonica, and Faydwer (look at a Kunark-era world map; notice a lot of places that were never in the game until like the 12th expansion?) and if they added Kerras as a playable race starting on the island west of Toxxulia.

There, I discussed. :P

I don't think it was AAs, the Bazaar, the Nexus and least of all, the updated graphics that killed the game. I will agree that Bazaar and Nexus contributed towards lessening the need for social interraction, which granted, is important, but it wasn't the death knell IMO. I will also agree that the advent of AAs, though in many respects a very positive thing, did somewhat contribute to creating a schism in the player base, which is an important point (see below).

Competition from other games and schism in the player base was the tag team that brought the game to it's knees IMO. However, I think the schism between Keyed vs Non-keyed, heavy raiders vs. light or non raiders, was an even worse schism than the one mentioned above. What ended up happening is that casuals - even avid playing casuals (i.e. light or non-raiding types) had to pay for content they would never see, and do without gear they would never get. Because the heavy raiders had such good gear, successive new expansions got more and more difficult for the "casual" type player.

Since EQ2 and WoW both were completing for the same player base, and since SOE was pissing off at least half their remaining dedicated EQ1 players because of the schism, EQ1 took heavy hits.

Having said all that, "Cats on the Moon" was certainly anti-thematic and troubling to many of the old vets at the time. But we played on, most of us. To me, "Cats on the Moon" is more of a symptom than a cause of the havoc that SOE wrought in EQ1. At best it is cluelessly egregious, simply ignoring the fantasy theme. At worst, it showed just how willing SOE was to thumb their collective noses at the very foundations of the game. I think it was a bit of both. A combination of simple stupidity and hubris that ended up being repeated in many ways as the years wore on.

They truly "ruined their own lands".

[fuark]

Cats on the Moon was the beginning of the end; that much is obvious from step one, when the expansion was named "Shadows of Luclin" (SoL = Shit outta Luck).

AAs, the Bazaar, The Nexus, and the updated graphics all killed the game. Maybe many of us were too young for it to have realized it at the time, but looking back I think many of us can see that this was the expansion, not PoP, that killed the game, because it killed the community by reducing the reliance on Druids/Wizards for ports and eliminated the need to interact with people to trade. Things like AAs, which added never ending progression at 60 and created a schism between fresh 60s and veterans, and the updated graphics engine which forced many people to upgrade their comps when previously there was not a need for such a thing, only added insult to injury.

Even if everything was left as is; new zones with one or two connecting points (e.g., only allowing travel to Luclin via the Dreadlands spires where the Combine originally left from), the graphics engine was left alone, AAs weren't added, Shadow Haven wasn't some "one stop shop" for all your basic needs, and the Bazaar was absolutely obliterated from all memory, I still think Luclin was an absurd expansion. How many of us can actually pronounce the names of many of the higher end monsters? How many felt this diverged from both lore (the combine empire was supposed to be long gone, was it not?) and common fantasy archetypes?

Game would've been fine if we expanded some of Odus, Antonica, and Faydwer (look at a Kunark-era world map; notice a lot of places that were never in the game until like the 12th expansion?) and if they added Kerras as a playable race starting on the island west of Toxxulia.

There, I discussed. :P

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Hasbinbad]

Luclin was horrible. Bazaar was horrible. Nexus was horrible. Graphics were horrible. Cats on the moon were horrible. The style was horrible. They should have just made a new game.

AA's were good. They allowed players to advance their capabilities without having the level limit be at least 100.

PoP was good, but because Luclin was already out, Everquest was horrible.

If I had a genie in a bottle, and was so stupid as to use a wish on a video game, I would turn back the clock, skip Luclin entirely, and add AA's in PoP. That would have been a brilliant 4th expansion for Everquest.

[Muligan21]

Luclin was disastrous. Yes, I feel the bazaar took away player interaction and the moon was a huge disconnect from Norrath.

In my opinion they should have went classic > kunark > velious > PoP (minus books) and just stopped there. It always seems greener on the other side but if you began with classic and went through it all. Luclin seemed like a joke or an acid trip. You spent forever farming little blue, brain-headed aliens and attempt to get VT keys. Just to go into VT were things were named xjsjflksjdlkf xdsfsdf with 8 billion hit points. It almost appeared the SoE put not thought or time into developing the expansion into making it a part of the existing game.

Of course, this is all in the eye of the beholder, my opinion. Classic EQ was really great. I've played a lot of MMO's at the top level. Taking a break from Rift and finally trying this was great for me. Throughout most of EQ2, WoW, WAR, AoC, FFXI, and now Rift, I hardly remember adding anyone to my friends lists or trying to remember the better people in their respective classes. Within the first weeks of playing P99, I have already began developing a list of people, remembering names, and thanking numerous people for their generosity (buffs, gear, etc.) That's what EQ creates. The further you get into the expansion the more distant that becomes. Some expansions were better than others, i'm not saying all of them were bad. Just like someone had stated earlier, SoL was the beginning of the end. Even some of the better expansion seemed tainted due to SoL.

Project 1999 needs to leave itself where it is for awhile. There is so much to do in Kunark. If people begin growing tired... there are plans for Velious. Then there will be TONS of stuff to do... faction, ToV/NToV, Dain, Sleeper, WW, DN, etc.

[Daywolf]

I don't know why, but today I was overcome by an intense desire to play cats on the moon. New server reroll, lets hit it to the moon!




Discuss.*grabs popcorn* A troll thread! :D
We needed another thread full of trolls, yes. Ok, troll on, trolls. :)

[Kingofqueens123]

SoL was the shit, AA's made EQ.

[Belenos]

Cats on the Moon was the beginning of the end; that much is obvious from step one, when the expansion was named "Shadows of Luclin" (SoL = Shit outta Luck).

AAs, the Bazaar, The Nexus, and the updated graphics all killed the game. Maybe many of us were too young for it to have realized it at the time, but looking back I think many of us can see that this was the expansion, not PoP, that killed the game, because it killed the community by reducing the reliance on Druids/Wizards for ports and eliminated the need to interact with people to trade. Things like AAs, which added never ending progression at 60 and created a schism between fresh 60s and veterans, and the updated graphics engine which forced many people to upgrade their comps when previously there was not a need for such a thing, only added insult to injury.

Even if everything was left as is; new zones with one or two connecting points (e.g., only allowing travel to Luclin via the Dreadlands spires where the Combine originally left from), the graphics engine was left alone, AAs weren't added, Shadow Haven wasn't some "one stop shop" for all your basic needs, and the Bazaar was absolutely obliterated from all memory, I still think Luclin was an absurd expansion. How many of us can actually pronounce the names of many of the higher end monsters? How many felt this diverged from both lore (the combine empire was supposed to be long gone, was it not?) and common fantasy archetypes?

Game would've been fine if we expanded some of Odus, Antonica, and Faydwer (look at a Kunark-era world map; notice a lot of places that were never in the game until like the 12th expansion?) and if they added Kerras as a playable race starting on the island west of Toxxulia.

There, I discussed. :P

YES! luclin was when i stopped playing EQ originally, makes me so sad

[jerus]

Just want to point out, it's hard to pronounce lord bob too!

[moklianne]

I disagree with a few of your points.

I dont see how relying on something other than wizards and druids ruined anything. TBH, its a pita to both the porter and portee, and most people enjoy traveling by foot. I mean ports are just an easier way to get someplace, which by your definition is a bad thing. Youd meet alot more players running to a location rather than being ported directly to it.

AAs were a great addition to the game. They added a way for you to increase individuality of your toon, and made it so you could choose which aspects of your class you liked the best to become more effective. Later on, AAs became required, which I also had a problem with, but in Luclin it was fantastic, imo.

Im on the fence about the bazaar, I think alot of people on this server (myself included) dont have hours to sit in EC auctioning, and simply avoid the zone and vendor most of the gear I find. I like the player interaction, but I dont think its as beneficial as everyone says it is.

As for Luclin being "absurd" storyline/archtype wise, I think thats a bit silly seeing as fantasy covers more than just orcs and dragons. I like that it broadened things up a bit, as I think if they just did another dragon/god combo expansion things would have gotten stale quickly.

How I feel essentially. I actually enjoyed Luclin. I actually liked the graphics update. To each their own. Its all opinions being thrown around in this thread anyway.

[Gustahn]

Its not going to happen...

Luclin was the start of the end and Ldon was the death blow.

Deal with it.

[moklianne]

How many of us can actually pronounce the names of many of the higher end monsters?

You do realize that each of their names translates to a phrase describing them somewhat? The names weren't created for enunciation, they essentially created another language to describe those mobs. I thought it was pretty neat.

[moklianne]

Its not going to happen...

Luclin was the start of the end and Ldon was the death blow.

Deal with it.

GoD was.

[Muligan21]

It is to each their own... there were good things about SoL, especially compared to later expansions. Remember though, even Smed has said that SoL was one of their worst expansions until Gates of Discord. It was a huge time sink but some of the Shissar stuff was kind of cool. I believe it would have been much more accepted if VT and keying would have been tweaked, less books (or even no books), and the overall content would have been polished (reducing HP across the board for start, though Bane weapons were a cool idea to offset)

[Ledzepp02]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCW9Hey6IVY

[Giopawa]

Okay, one problem and the only problem I have with new content.
It would be harder for Uth to maintain it. That's a lot more landmass to run, it would need more server space. (s)He relies on donations alone for this. It's not just about us, we have to remember we are being done a kindness.
As well, if people could be logged in to sell their goods all the time, more people would be on longer, requiring again, more server space.
You see where this is headed?

[Troy]

AA's would be good if there was a relatively small cap on how many you could get - in other words you had to pick and choose which things you wanted. Throw in the option to pay 10000pp at your guild master to erase your AA's and start over and you even have a decent money sink to help the economy.

[Martenus]

So you can have a life and really checking prices average wihle buying or selling stuff ? You right thats really really bad :( I remeber i was still bartering in Bazar about prices it needed a bit longer most time because the others where afk often but it worked out.

[Daywolf]

Maybe depends on the server? But I know bartering was still strong up until pop. Thing was, it still did take effort to get to the bazaar, and so people stuck around. The nexus was always packed with people selling stuff. But when the pok books appeared, that was the end of that since most people stuck around 10 minutes if that.

I liked the new character graphics. Liked the old, too. But maybe less the new "character" graphics, but the armor being good. Animations seemed smoother too.

AA's were good, just poorly implemented. Too many AA points and being just another thing to grind.

The rest pretty much sucked, apart from maybe shadowhaven and a couple connecting zones.

While SoL was bad, it could have gotten better, but didn't :( only more progressively worse from that point on.

[Duma]

Nexus would be fine if it was added, and kept, with the original downtime of 30 minutes in between ports instead of 5 minutes or whatever it was changed to. People would still seek out player ports because waiting that long would annoy the hell out of them and would be used as a last resort. Just like boats. Keep bazaar shut down permanently.

PoP fix is easy. Books go 1 way, all town stones stones inactive except Nexus.

[Messianic]

4 pages and zero tags, omg


AA's = infinite treadmill, but the same is true of raiding for more gear. I wonder why people find an infinite treadmill for better gear fun, while an infinite treadmill for better stats/attributes/etc is so evil.

I find the opposite to be true.

[Zakaton]

EC Tunnel sucks hard. It's just the same spam for over priced stuff over and over again. Whoopde-freakin-doo. Give me the bazaar any day. Luclin changed that game, but PoP and raid-focused play is what killed it.

[SupaflyIRL]

Ssra Temple is one of the best designed levels in any game I've ever played. Bazaar was great. The new graphics and the nexus sucked though.

[ziggyholiday]

Started playing shortly after Luclin came out, played a wizard from then until EQ2 came out. I was bothered for ports every day I logged on....every day. So while it seemed to some of you that there was less player interaction due to spires and pok, there wasn't from my perspective.

During pok I was one of a handful of GM tailors (on my server) that were making elemental gear, yes I used the bazaar trader function to sell but I was sent tells by people looking for a good deal just as much as I had people just come and buy from me for the price I set.

EQ was still a group centric game when SoL and PoP came out, those expansions didn't change that.

AAs where an awesome way to increase your character strength after hitting maz level and gave you a reason to get online and get a group, the problem with them was when they became a barrier for raiding.

[Deathrydar]

EQ was still a group centric game when SoL and PoP came out, those expansions didn't change that.


It absolutely changed that! It perhaps didn't completely kill it, but it absolutely 100% changed the group centric" element of the game!

[Stormhowl]

AAs ... gave you a reason to get online and get a group

Implying that one NEEDS something to progress to have a reason to log on.

[starspun]

No, implying that someone who wasn't content sitting on their ass while twiddling their thumbs doing nothing at all would have a reason to log in.

[Stormhowl]

No, implying that someone who wasn't content sitting on their ass while twiddling their thumbs doing nothing at all would have a reason to log in.

Progression isn't necessary to put an end to "sitting on your ass while twiddling your thumbs doing nothing at all"; your own motivation and reasons for playing are enough. They should be enough, at any rate, and I feel the success of EQ pre-Luclin would be proof enough of that fact.

[moklianne]

Okay, one problem and the only problem I have with new content.
It would be harder for Uth to maintain it. That's a lot more landmass to run, it would need more server space. (s)He relies on donations alone for this. It's not just about us, we have to remember we are being done a kindness.
As well, if people could be logged in to sell their goods all the time, more people would be on longer, requiring again, more server space.
You see where this is headed?

They could ask for hardware donations. Specific parts that they may need. Some of us are in the position to donate stuff like this.

As far as maintaining content, do what the Live servers do. Maintain the current expansion until the next one is released. Once that happens, don't specifically go back and fix anything in the old expansions unless its something that affects a lot of players, such as a popular quest or item, etc.

[starspun]

Progression isn't necessary to put an end to "sitting on your ass while twiddling your thumbs doing nothing at all"; your own motivation and reasons for playing are enough. They should be enough, at any rate, and I feel the success of EQ pre-Luclin would be proof enough of that fact.

For some people, yes, your own motivation and reasons for playing is enough. For others, it isn't - some people need a tangible reward in their sights to keep working towards. That is THEIR motivation, what keeps them going - knowing there still is a way to improve their characters.

Strange how personal preference works, isn't it?

[guineapig]

Luclin was horrible. Bazaar was horrible. Nexus was horrible. Graphics were horrible. Cats on the moon were horrible. The style was horrible. They should have just made a new game.

AA's were good. They allowed players to advance their capabilities without having the level limit be at least 100.

PoP was good, but because Luclin was already out, Everquest was horrible.

If I had a genie in a bottle, and was so stupid as to use a wish on a video game, I would turn back the clock, skip Luclin entirely, and add AA's in PoP. That would have been a brilliant 4th expansion for Everquest.

^

[guineapig]

Although I must admit I used the Bazaar almost religiously every single day and my character was in there when ever I wasn't playing. Comparatively I have spent maybe 20 minutes in the EC tunnel since the server launched. I just can't be bothered.

[Skope]

the bazaar was great, imo. I don't play EQ to sit in EC all fucking day.

[Striiker]

Although I must admit I used the Bazaar almost religiously every single day and my character was in there when ever I wasn't playing. Comparatively I have spent maybe 20 minutes in the EC tunnel since the server launched. I just can't be bothered.

I have to agree here. I've gone to EC a couple times and never enjoyed it. The bazaar however was fine as I could go in, search for something I need, buy it if available and at the right price, and get back to the game. Also, I could unload all of the junk which I accumulate as I adventure during my time away from game..

[goodthink]

I think SoL was the last expansion that was any good for eq, however, at the same time it did introduce things that fundementally broke the game.

a) the bazaar; no getting around this. You add the bazaar you have 300 afk people selling, and lose all the interactivity of selling over /auc in a zone like ec. the bazaar was the one thing i really believed ruined eq. i would hate to see any kind of bazaar put into the game.

b) the decrease in difficulty from 1 - 10 and hell levels; i believe it was SoL that made getting to level 10 signifigantly easier and added the forumulae that 'evened' out the hell levels.

c) zone like paludal; paludal made it possible to go from 1 to 20 in less than 6hrs. it emptied all the old world zones forever.

i love the bestlord, but i don't think the downsides are worthwhile. sol was certainly marked the decline of eq, imo.

[Tewaz]

I quit before SoL and came back in PoP and quit before the next expansion. I was just looking through the zones on Alla and it made me want to play SoL since I never did. When I played in PoP I leveled to 20 in Paludal then did old world/kunark/velious to 55 then went to PoN. SoL just looks fun.

I wish there was a legit server with it on so I could experience it, oh well, maybe one day.

[Hithrohir]

Luclin's features didn't break the game, but they were the first step in the process that eventually did. It was a decent enough expansion, it was just a step in the wrong direction that was inexplicably continued to greater and greater extents in future expansions. It did have its own share of problems, such as the jarring and off-theme setting, insane timesink grinds for keys and bane weapons and shit, and the start of what I like to call "content for the sake of content." A lot of it didn't feel real, immersive or believable (when viewed within the confines of the setting, of course) and just sort of stopped feeling like Everquest. It still had plenty of good gameplay, a fairly neat new class, and one of the best raid zones in the entire history of the game.

[Deathrydar]

It would be great if the devs could implement some of the SoL zones and attach them to the old world zones somehow. Hell, they could even throw in the Beastlord class, minus the Vah Shir and it would be cool!!!

But the whole moon, Nexus, Bazaar thingie was horrible and I would never play on a server that has it implemented.

[ziggyholiday]

It absolutely changed that! It perhaps didn't completely kill it, but it absolutely 100% changed the group centric" element of the game!

In what way(s) did it "absolutely 100% change the gorup centric element"?

If anything, soloing became less viable (for the vast majority of players) during these two expansions, especially PoP.

[Hithrohir]

Maybe the implication was that raiders distanced themselves too much from the rest of the playerbase, thus trivializing groups and turning them into just exp vectors. That's my belief, anyway. Luclin and onwards was when you could no longer get fairly high-end through trading and group content, and when raiding became exclusively an uberguild thing as opposed to anyone being able to do planes and the lesser raid targets of the first three eras. This trend kind of started in Velious, but nowhere near to the degree of Luclin and especially PoP and onwards. Luclin was when raiders completely stopped caring about non-raid content and wouldn't be wearing a single piece of gear that came from the market, quests or groupable dungeons.

[falkun]

one of the best raid zones in the entire history of the game.

Ya, ssra temple was a badass raid zone. I loved everything about that zone, except maybe the zone it was linked to, which sucked.

[guineapig]

If anything, soloing became less viable (for the vast majority of players) during these two expansions, especially PoP.

Soloing was alive and well in PoP. You just had to pick your spots well.
First time I saw a Shadowknight soloing in the planes was during PoP era in the Plane of Disease fear kiting the bugs outside. Saw rangers and bards soloing regularly as well (in the planes). That's just naming some non-typical soloing examples. I know clerics did quite well solo during PoP although I do not believe they were doing so in the Planes themselves, but rather on old world content. It all depended on how much time you were willing to invest in AAs.

[ziggyholiday]

/shrug

Tier 1 planar armor was good as well as elemental craftables. It could get expensive but was still good for the non raiders. BoT was a good place to grind AAs and even get gear if you couldn't get an elemental group with people you knew/trusted.

To me, things like the graphics, nexus/pok books and bazaar are a non issue that did nothing but make the game more convenient. Sorry that is not a bad thing.

Spot on about the barrier to raid though. You had a lot of work to do if you wanted to start raiding when PoP was current. This was less of a factor when Luclin was current IMO because if you had a decent guild that still did ntov runs for the newbies you could get some ok gear for entry level luclin raids.

[ziggyholiday]

Soloing was alive and well in PoP. You just had to pick your spots well.
First time I saw a Shadowknight soloing in the planes was during PoP era in the Plane of Disease fear kiting the bugs outside. Saw rangers and bards soloing regularly as well (in the planes). That's just naming some non-typical soloing examples. I know clerics did quite well solo during PoP although I do not believe they were doing so in the Planes themselves, but rather on old world content. It all depended on how much time you were willing to invest in AAs.

That's why I said the qualifier "vast majority of players". Also, I was refering to soloing for exp in PoP zones.

[guineapig]

That's why I said the qualifier "vast majority of players". Also, I was refering to soloing for exp in PoP zones.

All of my examples (other than cleric) were examples in the Planes.

In my opinion just because the vast majority of players didn't solo in the planes does not mean that they couldn't have. But you are correct, it wasn't exactly a popular past time. Due to the hitpoints of planar mobs it tended to be slower exp'ing solo than in a solid 6-person group and by that time there were no exp penalties and the group exp bonus was pretty nice too.

[Kingofqueens123]

Baz was great, people talking about missing out on interacting with other people? who wants to deal with poeple....:confused:

[Tewaz]

The big downside that Luclin would pose to this server is our small population would get spread out too much.

[Messianic]

Baz was great, people talking about missing out on interacting with other people? who wants to deal with poeple....:confused:

Seriously, I play this MMO to be ALONE, geez people

[Aangus]

I can do without luclin but the bazaar or something like it would be great - I have little enough time to play and would rather not spend it trying to be heard in the massive spam fest that is east commonlands

[BrandeX]

Everyone has their own opinions on what parts of the game they like best, for me I would enjoy a server (if it had a lot of players) which had all expacs through Luclin. RoK and SoL are my two favorites /shrug. Also, I would actually like a retro server that had all expacs through LDoN, but without PoP. Luclin was a good enough hub, we didn't need another one, and simplified travel without completely trivializing it. That would also give all classes, and races except drakkin for people to play, if there was a slight mod to enable Berserkers into the LDoN era. (You don't really need GoD to have a BER, and you can just move the tomes they would need somewhere else).

[ziggyholiday]

The big downside that Luclin would pose to this server is our small population would get spread out too much.

^^^

This! Honestly I think it will get that way with Velious if not now.

[Muligan21]

^^^

This! Honestly I think it will get that way with Velious if not now.

Its very possible. We may get some population growth on the initial release but there still should be a nice chunk of time before velious. I have a feeling this server will grow a bit this fall/winter.

[stormlord]

My opinion over the months and years has changed in slight ways. Kind of an evolution. I think I already stated it in this thread but it might have changed in some way so I'll state it again. The temporal differences are enough, I'd think.

What did I think of luclin back then and what do I think about the conventional views here about luclin?

Conventional Views:
1) Bazaar destroyed player trading
Somewhat agree. But I also disagree. I think what EQ really needed was auto-traders that would stay in-game even when we logged out. UO had that back in 1999, so why couldn't EQ? Not only that, UO had houses and you could put your merchant in your house. UO kicked the pants off EQ with respect to sandbox features. But part of me liked the open markets we had with the EC tunnel and whatnot. Trading was more fluid. Since you had to talk to the other player you could often get a better deal. Bazaar, by comparison, was robotic and cold. It even had banker robots and other things to feel our addiction.
2) The luclin spires destroyed travel
This is the one that gets me the most. Why do EQ players consistently ignore the problems EQ had back then? There were a huge numbers of zones, a population that was increasingly bulky at the top, less and less new players coming into the game, so what do you think that all means? It means no druids and no wizards and no convenient groups. It's not rocket science. The reasoning for the spires and pok books is MTH 60.
3) The cat people don't belong in EQ lore
I actually think I agree with this one. Something never felt right about the cats. This feeling was the same for the GoD and OOW expansions and others. They added stuff and lore, but it didn't fit in very well. That was how it felt to me. Everything felt hands off (the game seemed to get harder and harder with mobs hitting like trucks and non-tanks getting softer) and alien, like Frodo and E.T in the same sentence. The game started out feeling like a conventional medieval kind of adventure in a tolkien-like world. I liked it. But it morphed into a crazy fantasy steampunk psychedelic cesspool. It also seems that, as they added expansions, the home-city feel got worse and worse. All we had was PoK. The game lost more and more substance until it felt like a vendor machine or a mall that you might go to that's filled with shoppers. It didn't feel like an adventure in another world. It felt like convenience for convenience sake with no regard for anything else except that alone. Robotic. And for the benefit of developers, not players. They were too lazy to make a world. Or they were incapable of doing it. So they dragged their feet and shat on norrath.

What did I think back then:
1) Higher poly models and zones
The graphics slow down was the most noticeable thing. I couldn't run all of the models and had to turn it down. I usually kept the models on for barbarians and a few others, but most of the time old models remained. For a long time the new models never much crossed my mind because I didn't have them turned on. My opinion nowadays is that the newer models are too muscular and even messed up - like the half elves. I remember the first time going to dawnshroud peaks the framerate was horrid. View distance too high.
2) I didn't go to luclin until later
Believe it or not, but I spent a lot of my time in other zones. I didn't like the graphics slow down and luclin was tough compared to velious or antonica zones. So any bad feelings I have about luclin came later. I do remember not liking it that players all went to kill the recondites in Paludal Caverns. That was one of my first exposures to mudflation in an overt, in your face kind of way. SOE got very blatant, and increasingly indifferent. That was around the time that I started to grow bitter about SOE and its mentality.

EQ in all its glory still reminds me of a house that's all dressed up (vainly) but nobody is in it or wnats to be in it. That's the feeling I get from it. This is especially true for EQ between 2004-2009(10). Only reason I played it then was because of friends I had. EQ, for the most part, had lost a lot of its magic and was only about getting more money and items and staying with friends. Simple loyalty. But I just got more bitter and angrier with time. It was miserable. EQ lost substance like an aging crack whore that has given up.

To be honest, the only thing that interests me right now about EQ are the houses they added in HoT. The rest of the game turns me off. EQ is too much like patchwork for me to love anymore. It's too old. It's an old man that has had so much plastic surgery that he's no human anymore. But owning a house in a fantasy world.... nothing beats that. But UO did it so much better. Why go to EQ, if I can go to UO player run?

Maybe EQ just got old. It lost its zoooom. It lost its purpose after that. Everything dies...

[Vondra]

Problem with AAs is this server has a limited population and thus thrives even more on alts to populate the level ranges than usual. AAs encourage people to make less alts by building up their main that much more.

Less alts means less people for actual newcomers to play with, which means more of them will get bored and leave which is no good.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I agree on AAs - it added nothing but insane grind on top of the rest of the grind. And since there was no AA limit - you could get all of them, it was just a matter of GRIND TIME :D
AAs would make sense if they were limited - like out of 300 possible AAs you could have, you could only earn and spend 100 - this would at least give your char SOME customization choices.

On Luclin Spires - well you needed SOME way to go there, and Spires were a logical way UP. Of course having multiple spires all over the world, resulted in people going UP only to go DOWn in another part of the world. Which was bad, I agree. perhaps making just ONE spire connected to Luclin would be better - like giant spire in North Karana (west Antonika was always empty - this would add it some traffic)

On "alien" setting - Moon setting automatically means something non-earthy, so I was mostly OK with it, but I have to say that neitherian Aliens were TOO MUCH ALIEN.
And Rockhopper graphics were so ridiculously cartoonish it made me mad. The rest of it was more or less OK.

Paludal Caverns grind- well that not new - welcome to LOILO 2.0 - this is when everyone levels up in 1 zone started.

What really destroyed travel was PoK books - again there should have been only 1 way up and down from the planes hub, and it should have been limited to 46+ (I am fine with PoP expansion itself).