Making grouping great again

[Stonewallx39]

Just read a thread in RnF, don’t ask my why I’m a masochist, with a bunch of people sharing (crying) how grouping seems broken on P99.

If incentivizing grouping is the goal, as it should be, the best way to do it would be through manipulating ZEMs and group XP bonus.

Simply increase the group XP bonus substantially something like 25% for two, 50% for 3, 75% for 4, 100% for 5, and 150% for a full group. Then cut all ZEMs in half and watch as Soloers fly into groups.

[azxten]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.

During actual classic when Druid figured out how to kite mobs Brad McQuaid lost his shit and nerfed DoT damage on moving mobs. The game was designed to require grouping for any substantial progress and recreating a more classic rule set will bring back that design. I already see people saying mob casting has to be nerfed because their monk can't interrupt a caster or whatever. No, that is how the game was designed. You needed a group. You were supposed to have a healer as a melee or you just dealt with a much slower progression soloing carefully selected easy mobs in outdoor zones where you wouldn't get trained.

[starkind]

get rid of ZEMs entirely or put negative ZEMs in places with loot so that people only go there for loots and not groups. That would severly limit the number of exp mobs so maybe just flatten out all ZEMs period.

i'm a big proponent of invisibly slow non existant EXP with no exp meter and forced /rol so u have to actually talk to someone to find out how powerful they are and test your abilities vs npcs. Hide that stuff, we don't need ppl thinking about exp while they roleplay.

[Tunabros]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.

During actual classic when Druid figured out how to kite mobs Brad McQuaid lost his shit and nerfed DoT damage on moving mobs. The game was designed to require grouping for any substantial progress and recreating a more classic rule set will bring back that design. I already see people saying mob casting has to be nerfed because their monk can't interrupt a caster or whatever. No, that is how the game was designed. You needed a group. You were supposed to have a healer as a melee or you just dealt with a much slower progression soloing carefully selected easy mobs in outdoor zones where you wouldn't get trained.

and everyone laughed

[Stonewallx39]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.


That would make the game less fun. You don’t like fun, or is that just enjoy ruining other peoples fun?

[Jibartik]

I cant believe this game doesn't have a base exp bonus to make pugging categorically better than soloing or at least equal to it.

It's like the entire point of this game haha

[loramin]

I cant believe this game doesn't have a base exp bonus to make pugging categorically better than soloing or at least equal to it.

It's like the entire point of this game haha

There is an XP bonus for grouping ... it's just small (except on Red).

[Jimjam]

I cant believe this game doesn't have a base exp bonus to make pugging categorically better than soloing or at least equal to it.

It's like the entire point of this game haha

I think the logic is the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, which is probably true in theory if you don't consider resource scarcity nor social loafing.

[cd288]

I cant believe this game doesn't have a base exp bonus to make pugging categorically better than soloing or at least equal to it.

It's like the entire point of this game haha

I don’t think they fully appreciated how players would find ways to use the toolkit of a class to solo.

I would be supportive of P99 adding a solid group experience bonus. Would make things much more fun.

Az acts like nerfing channeling is going to somehow make soloing impossible. It really won’t as long as you’re attentive and give yourself enough space from the mob for root or charm breaks lol.

[eqravenprince]

I would like a bump in group experience. When grouping, the exp seems super slow compared to solo.

[Danth]

I rather like the way EQ mostly let the players run with emergent gameplay rather than bust out the nerfstick anytime someone figured out a way to do things that the designers didn't envision (hello, Warcraft). I know a lot about this game that I didn't know twenty years ago and I enjoy using that knowledge. I'm not interested in trying to re-live the past. I've enjoyed P99 for a lot longer and got much fuller usage out of it than I ever did the original.

There are a number of additional factors beyond experience rate that encourage solo on P1999. Part of it is the very helpfulness of the community--when it's trivial to almost always find a port and rez, death isn't so scary anymore. Part of it is the low population that makes pick-up grouping flat-out difficult at some level ranges, so sometimes people solo out of necessity and if they didn't, they'd quit. Part of it is the culture of a player base that has been influenced by solo-centric games that have come out in the past twenty years. Part of it is the reality that we're twenty years older and it's rude to join a group if I'm going to be AFK every little while to do various tasks around the house.

That P1999 EQ supports different modes of gameplay is a strength, not a weakness.

Danth

[Ooloo]

It's a hard question because not all groups are created equal. Certain configurations of duos\trios\full groups or whatever would have more or less incentive to group based on how well their classes can solo individually, regardless of a group bonus.

A group bonus won't be equally enticing to all classes, so classes who already solo a lot will probably continue to, and you'll have lots of groups of all rogues or something.

[galach]

I would like a bump in group experience. When grouping, the exp seems super slow compared to solo.

Sounds like it's a puller or group composition issue.

Best XP I ever had solo or group wise (outside of PL/chardok AOE) was a bard using singing steel helm to chain pull while still twisting & meleeing with the group.

[Stonewallx39]

Sounds like it's a puller or group composition issue.

Best XP I ever had solo or group wise (outside of PL/chardok AOE) was a bard using singing steel helm to chain pull while still twisting & meleeing with the group.

Thanks for weighing in Galach, definitely appreciate you staying engaged on these forums.

I think the pieces some of miss from the game is the feeling that grouping is the best option. For a lot of reasons group composition might not be “maximized” and as a result many are pushed to solo more than seems classic. On green server in particular it’s fairly common to come across a guy soloing an area that might be frequented by groups and you’d ask “hey wanna get something going?” To be met with “naw, I’m good.” It doesn’t feel like classic and is off from what most of us think was the original vision for the game.

Just thinking of ways that could jump start the culture and drive more pick up groups and a thirst for adventuring with new people.

[eqravenprince]

Sounds like it's a puller or group composition issue.

Best XP I ever had solo or group wise (outside of PL/chardok AOE) was a bard using singing steel helm to chain pull while still twisting & meleeing with the group.

Group composition issue for ALL my years of EQ, I don't think so.

[azxten]

That would make the game less fun. You don’t like fun, or is that just enjoy ruining other peoples fun?

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

[cd288]

Sounds like it's a puller or group composition issue.

Best XP I ever had solo or group wise (outside of PL/chardok AOE) was a bard using singing steel helm to chain pull while still twisting & meleeing with the group.

Come on Galach you know that’s a bit misleading haha. For example, if you’re soloing two 6:40 blue cons you’re getting better exp than almost any group even if you’re chain pulling in a high ZEM dungeon.

Sure, if you’re in a smaller group rather than a full one maybe the exp starts to get closer if you’re just nonstop chain pulling. But is that really a good answer? Having people exclude others from groups if they’re able to handle the content with, say, 4 people? I kinda think that’s even worse than a server with a ton of soloers; feels worse when all the groups are sitting there with open spots but won’t take another player.

[Trexller]

want a tough game, with a very steep learning curve? such that you will rage-quit and go back to farming orc belts on your 60 necro?

Rainbow Six: Siege

[azxten]

want a tough game, with a very steep learning curve? such that you will rage-quit and go back to farming orc belts on your 60 necro?

Rainbow Six: Siege

You know I thought that game was okay, a little bit lame, but it was fun. The problem is I don't use Windows and although Linux has now surpassed Windows in every way BattleEye anti-cheat stops you from playing a lot of games.

[Tunabros]

azxten you sure do like to write huge essays that no one will read

cope

[ReoDobbs]

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

So much of this is so subjective drivel with sprinkles of more subjectivity (trying to be disguised as "fact")about how you think human behavior works.

Even if it wasn't none of this would be solved by nerfing solo xp and forcing people to group

[Darkwulf58]

azxten you sure do like to write huge essays that no one will read

cope

Az is a deep thinker, nothing wrong with that and I like a well thought - out word wall.

[Stonewallx39]

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

Seriously!? What did you even say? TLDR (I honestly tried but couldn’t get through it).

If small changes to how xp is gained could have meaningful impacts driving classic gameplay, that would be in line would the vision for this project. It might even make this *multiplayer game* more fun and engaging!

It also wouldn’t hurt to have more people practice socializing before reaching end-game. Understanding and empathizing with your opponent, because you’ve grouped together while coming, up would be huge in minimizing toxicity.

[Toxigen]

find people that play on the same level as you

add them as a friend on discord

build groups of people that pull their weight...you dont have to be inclusive and invite every semi-AFK mouth breather out there

[azxten]

So much of this is so subjective drivel with sprinkles of more subjectivity (trying to be disguised as "fact")about how you think human behavior works.

Even if it wasn't none of this would be solved by nerfing solo xp and forcing people to group

Most of what I wrote there is just established game design concepts and how it relates to P99. Some of it is subjective.

azxten you sure do like to write huge essays that no one will read

Funny I even get PMs from people telling me they like what I write. I wonder if you do.

Seriously!? What did you even say? TLDR (I honestly tried but couldn’t get through it).

Let me translate it into Twitterese for you...

You suck at video games and I don't, too bad for you.

People don't play video games for the same reasons and get enjoyment from different aspects of a game.

That was 157 characters. I'm glad Twitter seems to have increased the limit to 280 but I probably still got dangerously close to confusing you. Also that was kind of some big words for you probably let me try again.

Ahem...

u bad at game but me not bad, ha!

sum lik gam 4 many fun cuz not only 4 u fun cuz

Probably shouldn't have used the comma. Let me try again...

u bad and never get gud

Solid.

[Tunabros]

cap

[Stonewallx39]

Let me translate it into Twitterese for you...

You suck at video games and I don't, too bad for you.

People don't play video games for the same reasons and get enjoyment from different aspects of a game.

That was 157 characters. I'm glad Twitter seems to have increased the limit to 280 but I probably still got dangerously close to confusing you.

Solid.

It’s not that what you wrote was difficult to understand, it was boring and uninsightful. You’ve shared previously that you don’t play P99 and are literally just trolling on the forums which partially contributed to me jumping on your post.

I do regret the tldr and apologize for that. It was rude and I don’t mean to contribute to the negativity on the forums. Ultimately I want to make this community stronger, and that’s the soul of the OP idea.

100% support sharing differing perspectives and I’ll be the first to tell you my opinion of game design is biased towards my preferences (more ad hoc collaboration). Definitely welcome more insights from you and anyone else, it’s just the way you go about communicating which can be grating.

[Keza]

I empathize, but the values are pretty oppressive and I'm not sure that's the right course to take. I played a Dragoon on FFXI back in the day and it felt like there was no point logging on without committing an hour to finding a group and at least 2 more to leveling. Needing a group to get exp if the classes aren't balanced is bad, and EQ is also home to underpowered classes. Will the rangers of EQ enjoy this? If even the soloers need groups then rangers have no hope of getting one. If you're gonna go the route of manipulating numbers I'd start at class/race penalties/bonuses.

The problem I see stems from class imbalance, and the only way to fix that is unclassic changes. Ideally they would nerf Ench and Shm, nerf mage's pets, nerf bard target limits and even buff a few things. Some of the zones are also much more difficult by comparison to others. If wizards/druids were more desirable from rebalancing you couldn't say the zones were too out-of-the-way, but they're still very difficult by comparison. That's where ZEM should come into play for incentivization.

They probably won't do that though because classic. There are unclassic things, but those facilitate normalized gameplay. I recently agreed with a /permadeath suggestion, but that doesn't change the game, it only assists in people being forced to do what they can already do - delete their character on death. The argument of "groups were classic" is a tough one. There's no measurement for that, only subjectivity. I'd say it's not classic for an ench/healer to duo a 30 mob camp in a dungeon though.

[cd288]

Most of what I wrote there is just established game design concepts and how it relates to P99. Some of it is subjective.



Funny I even get PMs from people telling me they like what I write. I wonder if you do.



Let me translate it into Twitterese for you...

You suck at video games and I don't, too bad for you.

People don't play video games for the same reasons and get enjoyment from different aspects of a game.

That was 157 characters. I'm glad Twitter seems to have increased the limit to 280 but I probably still got dangerously close to confusing you. Also that was kind of some big words for you probably let me try again.

Ahem...

u bad at game but me not bad, ha!

sum lik gam 4 many fun cuz not only 4 u fun cuz

Probably shouldn't have used the comma. Let me try again...

u bad and never get gud

Solid.

Nothing is more sad than when people go “yeah well I’ve gotten a PM from someone telling me how much they loved my comment”

No, they didn’t lol

[Jimjam]

He did actually.

[cd288]

He did actually.

So if you PMed him why not just write it in the comments?

[Jimjam]

So if you PMed him why not just write it in the comments?

Are you really demanding to get to read my private messages? Just in case you don’t know about boundaries: this is so very rude!

[Gustoo]

For most of my play time even on a bad solo character, I am better off soloing.

In olden days I think a big advantage of grouping was that people weren't that good at the game and probably needed a group to survive.

The other advantage is when there are so many mobs that it works out, particularly in kunark zones like dreadlands where mobs are just everywhere and you can get some serious churn going.

But I think there should be a group exp bonus, and definitely a full group (6 player) exp bonus so that the bonus player is basically free which I believe red has. With that config any extra 6th person is worth having if they are active at all and not training the group.

[Tewaz]

Full groups with 22 years of knowledge absolutely churn zones and most of them need mobs added. If another group enters the zone...things get even more stretched.

When soloing, mob density isn't an issue, exp is faster (most of the time) and you get all the loot.

I'd say add more mobs or a faster respawn time (removing some of the 21 minute and 14 minute respawns in certain dungeons) is an answer.

Or you buff group exp bonus.

I think group exp bonus is the best route since it increases player interaction which leads to people enjoying the game more and playing longer.

I've leveled multiple toons solo and I eventually quit playing them and then leaving the server for 6 months to 2 years.

Toons I've leveled with groups have led to much longer engagement and enjoyment.

My favorite leveling was on red with the 290% full group bonus + pvp because you became bonded to teammates that were undergeared and not there to gank. That plus a random twink coming to pvp you made the game pretty damn fun and engaging.

Red's is probably too large, but trios and up should pace the same as solo and the solo incentive should be gaining all the loot.

[Gustoo]

Yeah leveling in groups on PVP was also incentivized by the fact that lone work PK's have a little more to deal with, though on red 1.0 they didn't have much to fear since no item loot and they could gain all your coin and the pride of ruining your leveling experience (so next red will probably address that in one way or another)

But agreed.

[jombo]

Most of what I wrote there is just established game design concepts and how it relates to P99. Some of it is subjective.



Funny I even get PMs from people telling me they like what I write. I wonder if you do.



Let me translate it into Twitterese for you...

You suck at video games and I don't, too bad for you.

People don't play video games for the same reasons and get enjoyment from different aspects of a game.

That was 157 characters. I'm glad Twitter seems to have increased the limit to 280 but I probably still got dangerously close to confusing you. Also that was kind of some big words for you probably let me try again.

Ahem...

u bad at game but me not bad, ha!

sum lik gam 4 many fun cuz not only 4 u fun cuz

Probably shouldn't have used the comma. Let me try again...

u bad and never get gud

Solid.

Didn't you end up admitting you couldn't even get past level 12 back in the day in another thread? There is an impressive lack of self awareness coming from you, and it manifests as Dunning Kruger turned up to 11.

[starkind]

Real men hunt Giant rats alone on their lvl 8 untwinked rogues in the sewers!

[cd288]

Are you really demanding to get to read my private messages? Just in case you don’t know about boundaries: this is so very rude!

Think you misread what I was saying. I was saying if you were gonna PM then why not just comment instead.

[cd288]

Didn't you end up admitting you couldn't even get past level 12 back in the day in another thread? There is an impressive lack of self awareness coming from you, and it manifests as Dunning Kruger turned up to 11.

Dude also says he doesn’t play P99. So basically he sits here nerd raging over the status of mechanics on a server he doesn’t even play on and demands that the staff change things. It’s literally one of the weirdest dynamics in any forum poster I’ve seen on here, and that’s saying something lol

[azxten]

Dude also says he doesn’t play P99. So basically he sits here nerd raging over the status of mechanics on a server he doesn’t even play on and demands that the staff change things. It’s literally one of the weirdest dynamics in any forum poster I’ve seen on here, and that’s saying something lol

I play P99 in a different way now.

*whistles innocently*

https://i.imgur.com/90qFVi9.png

https://i.imgur.com/wwr6CXh.png

You know it's pretty neat I can track back mesmerize, charm, and all the other Enchanter effects directly to their functions out of a year 2000 client because it seems they actually have unique functions written for those spells which the other spells don't have. Just laying things out for now.

[jombo]

I play P99 in a different way now.

*whistles innocently*

https://i.imgur.com/90qFVi9.png

https://i.imgur.com/wwr6CXh.png

You know it's pretty neat I can track back mesmerize, charm, and all the other Enchanter effects directly to their functions out of a year 2000 client because it seems they actually have unique functions written for those spells which the other spells don't have. Just laying things out for now.

Posting random snippets of decompiled client (not even the main client, either) from a game that validates on server is truly galaxy brain.

[Swish]

My favorite leveling was on red with the 290% full group bonus + pvp because you became bonded to teammates that were undergeared and not there to gank.

https://i.imgur.com/lrIl6w3.png

[azxten]

Posting random snippets of decompiled client (not even the main client, either) from a game that validates on server is truly galaxy brain.

For a game that "validates on server" I sure made a lot of money writing cheats on the client side back in the day. Why would a game that "validates on server" let you run GM commands via the client with no authentication? They left the GM commands in, which we abused, but Charm logic was safely secured on the server I'm sure.

Hilarious. Latest Enchanter cope. "Yeah you decompiled the Charm function b ut that isn't even the main client and besides there was additional logic on the server which made it so it works like it is on P99 now."

[jombo]

For a game that "validates on server" I sure made a lot of money writing cheats on the client side back in the day. Why would a game that "validates on server" let you run GM commands via the client with no authentication? They left the GM commands in, which we abused, but Charm logic was safely secured on the server I'm sure.

Hilarious. Latest Enchanter cope. "Yeah you decompiled the Charm function b ut that isn't even the main client and besides there was additional logic on the server which made it so it works like it is on P99 now."

Look at how triggered you get when confronted with the fact that your post is impossible to prove. Absolutely deranged. Seek help.

[Jimjam]

Look at how triggered you get when confronted with the fact that your post is impossible to prove. Absolutely deranged. Seek help.

Please don’t encourage other posters to share cheats...

[Castle2.0]

Manastone, Fungus, IG pots and other pots galore rechargeable via vendor without any other player involvement....

Ez mode. Why group?

Was gonna solo Naggy in Kunark, but GMs couldn't accept that.

P99 = not a sandbox. Just an elf museum with an overbearing overzealous curator.

[Castle2.0]

Oh, and bring back Red Wood Wands (https://streamable.com/ftle4).

Watch til the end ;)

That was gaming. Such a gameresque gamer move to game with: Red Wood Wands.

[Bardp1999]

not reading through this thread but P99 needs to do something to encourage grouping in a big way, current status is very sad

[Lich]

Part of fun in games is challenge.

https://thinkgamedesign.com/flow-theory-game-design/

A game which is easy for one person is unchallenging and boring. Another person might find it too difficult and boring. A third person will find it is a good challenge and fun.

Game design theory has progressed so that most video game players today are not good at playing video games. You could compare something like Counter-Strike to Overwatch. In Counter-Strike, for the most part ignoring the limited economy, every round is the same. Your only ability to win or lose is based on your skill. In Overwatch (which I've never played) the concept of an "Ultimate" ability is introduced. At any given moment you can use an ultimate and "win". There is still skill involved but there is also an "I win something" button you can press. Now there is less incentive to be good at the game you just hit your "I win" button and get your dopamine. This is just a simplified example of the direction games have gone. Another would be EverQuest's brutal experience loss and corpse runs, which by the way is provably about 2x as bad in classic era than P99 makes it, another change they never put in here. Compare that to WoW with it's armor repair and ghost walk to your corpse mechanic.

So, what might be less fun for you or others who aren't good at EQ in particular, would be more fun for me and a lot of other people who enjoy a more challenging true to classic EQ experience.

Now let's talk about the types of gamers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types

I would argue P99 with its' raid and max level focus is designed for achievers. It also can appeal to social gamers. It can appeal to explorers but mostly if they aren't familiar with the game already. Finally, it has very little appeal for killers. My feeling is that Nilbog / Rogean must be achiever game types because their decisions often promote that style of gameplay while ignoring the others.

I am a killer, social, explorer gamer in that order. My competition fix from EQ is thriving in a punishing game model while others can't handle it. On Live I played PvP almost exclusively. However, I am also a social gamer. While P99 has socialization most of it ends up stacked at the max level and is socialization between achievers to that end. P99 also offers exploration to me because there are zones I never really played in during live and they aren't raid zones.

Making the game more difficult appeals to all three of these drives. Why? Because now if you can succeed more than others you have a basis of competition especially if it involves things like training, psychological games, PvP, etc where you are directly competing with them and not just the game. This is the killer gamer. It also promotes socialization because players group more realizing the game is very difficult and it's more efficient to play with others depending on your class. Finally, it promotes exploration because a more difficult game closes off more options for places to try to level and the promotion of grouping which typically overcrowds certain areas and dungeons due to more efficient mob killing leads players to be willing to leave and try another area.

On P99 they diminish the killer play style by having heavy handed play nice policies and implementing things that make the game easier while ignoring things that would make it more difficult. Similarly, they discourage grouping and socialization by leaving OP classes like Enchanter in place and implementing things like Teal instance and increased mob spawns. Suddenly there is no real reason to talk to anyone and people complain about the "lonely P99" experience on these forums all the time. Oh don't worry people say, just get up to max level, but that isn't what those players are talking about. They don't WANT to be max level or the game is effectively over for certain types of gamers. They don't want to eek out raid pixels and talk about the guild UN and petition quest. Same for explorers. If a camp is always available because high ZEMs, mob spawns, easy leveling, etc lets players progress easily through areas then that is where you will always go. In fact, on P99 "the camp" is so much better than anything else you could be doing if you know where "the camp" is that you feel like you might as well not play if you aren't there. You're certainly not going to leave The Hole and go get a group in KC you're just going to log off, play an alt, etc.

Hopefully that helps you understand. P99 is a low skilled achiever friendly server and I'd like to see it start accommodating other gamer types more because that is the furthest thing from my style. I am a high skilled killer gamer who also likes to socialize and explore but not the effort of min maxing my pixels.

You see instanced Teal, increased spawns, easy mode channeling, etc and get excited! YAY! I can get to those dragons so fast and the 300 player AFK raiding I love so much to get my pixels! I don't see that.

You sound like a psychopath.

[cd288]

For a game that "validates on server" I sure made a lot of money writing cheats on the client side back in the day. Why would a game that "validates on server" let you run GM commands via the client with no authentication? They left the GM commands in, which we abused, but Charm logic was safely secured on the server I'm sure.

Hilarious. Latest Enchanter cope. "Yeah you decompiled the Charm function b ut that isn't even the main client and besides there was additional logic on the server which made it so it works like it is on P99 now."

Why are you turning every thread into something about enchanters? You have a problem man

[Chortles Snortles]

how to make elf frens a foreign concept to p1999ers
(LOL)

[Stonewallx39]

It is interesting how so many posts descend into RnF…

If we could change the incentive so that grouping was as good or a better option then solo, you’d push people together in mutually beneficial relationships.

You could nerf things, make the game harder for some classes, remove recharge, so on and so forth. At the end of the day does any of that fulfill the legacy of classic Everquest? A vibrant community full of players trying to overcome a hostile world to adventure and experience something different.

Making the game less fun will push players away (kill vibrant community) which is why I advocate for making grouping as good or better experience as soloing. The game should be enjoyable as well as difficult. Making connections and facing down incredible challenges is what most of use remember from our time in classic. Balancing these two things will keep our little project alive and well pushing forward into the future.

I just wonder if there’s a good way to get these ideas in front of the project team and to hear their perspective on how these could fit in or pitfalls they’re looking to avoid.

[starkind]

EQ will always become top heavy and full of twinks after a year or so its the way it is you cant undo that without tearing out its guts and making it a wow clone which also sucks

enjoy it for what it is, and have an alt that can solo for when u dont feel/cant get grps which most of us in our old age are inclined to do

i'm infavor of bringing resists in line with mob power scaling the way it scales with melee so at the very high end your only landing root on light greens without help

that along with nerfing velious items and nerfing channeling will help bring a lot more vibrancy to the world

also charming should cuz negative faction hits the minute it lands on certain npcs and ONLY be restricted to a specific npc sub type, so if you charm a guard somewhere ur gonna take huge faction hits

really only necromancers should be able to comfortably solo and clerics maybe the undeads and paladins cuz they are sick awesome with DW helm, everyone else should be begging those three classes for grps and divine favor post 40

also if u havent solo'd a warrior or rogue untwinked to 60 u are a whiner

and even a lvl 1 rat or moss snake should be able to 1 shot a lvl 60 if it gets lucky with a hit 1, in 1000 times (has to land the hit tho) make the world fearsome and remove the stat bloat from velious, the planes. (or cause some horrific wasting disease (that doesnt leave a buff up and doesnt go away when u die (and is transmissible with contact between other players, trading items or bumping hitboxes)) that slowly drops max hp to 1 point) only a lvl 60 cleric can cure if u beg them again :D

[cd288]

You literally don’t need any other mechanical change to the game to make grouping the goal of players besides a group exp bonus. Just give a group a bonus that scales depending on amount of players in the group and their respective levels. Problem solved.

The fact of the matter is that any mechanical changes you make to gameplay to try and make things harder will eventually be overcome by players to some or all extent. The simple fact will remain that solo exp is faster and so no one will group.

[Keza]

You literally don’t need any other mechanical change to the game to make grouping the goal of players besides a group exp bonus. Just give a group a bonus that scales depending on amount of players in the group and their respective levels. Problem solved.

The fact of the matter is that any mechanical changes you make to gameplay to try and make things harder will eventually be overcome by players to some or all extent. The simple fact will remain that solo exp is faster and so no one will group.

The only thing this does is force people to group. FFXIV forces people to do groups and even raids for the main story quest yet literally no one speaks - despite people droning on about "community" - which is just their friends and guildmates they've deliberately sought out. It's fine for the sake of story, but it doesn't build community. If forcing grouping is your goal then why not make it impossible to get exp solo? Then people can group, never speak and level up. (* Forgot to mention FFXIV, as with all themeparks, is piss easy.)

Making the game more difficult and requiring grouping in certain circumstances advocates an organic formula for socializing. No one on the planet remembers any given group they had in a themepark MMO, but I remember some random Japanese guy helping my dumbass 14-year-old self too stupid to use auto-translate go through Korroloka Tunnel and finish the quest to unlock Ninja in FFXI. Why? Because you can't solo it at level 30, which is when you unlock advanced jobs. If I could have solo'd it then I wouldn't remember it at all, and it'd be meaningless to me. Forcing people to group for the sake of grouping is similarly meaningless. No more meaningless than my argument though, since classic is classic.

As for people overcoming mechanical challenges... if players couldn't then why even play? But making the content harder doesn't make it a "fact" that soloing will still be better, it makes soloing harder because the game is harder, and any mistake or poor luck while soloing results in heavy drawbacks compared to grouping.

[cd288]

So now if you’re moving the goalposts from getting people to group to it only mattering if people are social while grouping, nothing you really proposed makes people more social while grouping.

[Keza]

If your only interest is to get a group in EQ for the sake of getting a group then the argument of boosting exp in groups isn't for the sake of grouping itself, it's for the sake of leveling your 100th character faster in an ancient emulator.

I presumed any person wanting groups to be more commonplace would consider the primary aspect of grouping in a game like Everquest to be about socializing rather than merely gaining exp, which is extremely easy to do for almost every class.

Anyway, enjoy not saying anything in your posts and claiming you're right.

[Manakim]

I'm going to say it again, exp here is alot faster compared to my 1999 memories. I've remade a wizard here and got to 50 something really fast, while also playing my necro main. Back in the day, it took me over a year to hit 60. And no, it's not that we have more knowledge about the game today, i've done the exact same route i did in my main back in the day, and it was suuuuuper fast.

[Tewaz]

The exp per kill is accurate.

The kills per hour are not.

Standard dungeon group here holds all the mobs in what would be considered multiple camps in 2000.

I remember camping NG in Seb in 2001 and we only killed the bugs and a few patrols. There was a group in the entry hall, exit hall, hallway to the other two areas, and one at the pyramid.

We were laughing at the other groups because ours was the best loot camp.

[Ooloo]

Yeah I remember in vanilla classic on Povar in cazic thule, there would be a group in each corner of the temple courtyard, and usually a slightly higher level group inside the temple on the second floor. And there seemed to somehow still always be mobs up and trains frequently.

Sigh.. those were the days.

[PatChapp]

The exp per kill is accurate.

The kills per hour are not.

Standard dungeon group here holds all the mobs in what would be considered multiple camps in 2000.

I remember camping NG in Seb in 2001 and we only killed the bugs and a few patrols. There was a group in the entry hall, exit hall, hallway to the other two areas, and one at the pyramid.

We were laughing at the other groups because ours was the best loot camp.
I remember 3 groups minimum on the goblins in highkeep as well. Now it's 1 camp

[Manakim]

The exp per kill is accurate.

The kills per hour are not.

Standard dungeon group here holds all the mobs in what would be considered multiple camps in 2000.

I remember camping NG in Seb in 2001 and we only killed the bugs and a few patrols. There was a group in the entry hall, exit hall, hallway to the other two areas, and one at the pyramid.

We were laughing at the other groups because ours was the best loot camp.

I've done all my leveling solo here on p99. Still think exp is way faster than original.

[starkind]

It's a bit fast. Because the game is also a bit easier. *for certain classes*. I also think ppl powerplay certain classes and powerlvl their guilds for server firsts and item domination which also accelerates twinking, item, plat inflation, and top heaviness.

My entire time in live through velious I never got above 40, and I got my first planar drop in PoP after a 1 year IRL army vacation.

90% of us can literally play as much as we want/are able to play more. We pick two or three characters, and we plan ahead.

Like I rerolled 30x literally in my first year of EQ in 1999. None of that gear made it into the economy and every toon was a scrub. The coolest thing I had for 90% of my classic experience was getting a dark reaver gifted to me. Buying fine plate in kunark and being super jazzed when hybrid mana costs and manapool got de-nerfed.

Then I quit because I went to basic. It was much later before I would come back and level a cleric post-pop. My sk/wizard pretty much forgotten.

We have many people with stables of well geared 60s. Which I'm not whining about, it's just different with different pros and cons. Other ppl bitching, and needing those crutches r generally hilarious to moderately disgusting *turns nose away *

Doubt I'd turn down pixel gifts or pls tho.

____ update ____

Also enchanters are way too op. Nerf them harder. Plus channeling and like the number of torpor shamans is way too damn high.

[cd288]

I'm going to say it again, exp here is alot faster compared to my 1999 memories. I've remade a wizard here and got to 50 something really fast, while also playing my necro main. Back in the day, it took me over a year to hit 60. And no, it's not that we have more knowledge about the game today, i've done the exact same route i did in my main back in the day, and it was suuuuuper fast.

Lol it’s literally not faster

[Delekhan]

Make the ZEM classic per the bug report and nerf channeling. Grouping will work out just fine. The only other risk to grouping is jboots and sow pots.

During actual classic when Druid figured out how to kite mobs Brad McQuaid lost his shit and nerfed DoT damage on moving mobs. The game was designed to require grouping for any substantial progress and recreating a more classic rule set will bring back that design. I already see people saying mob casting has to be nerfed because their monk can't interrupt a caster or whatever. No, that is how the game was designed. You needed a group. You were supposed to have a healer as a melee or you just dealt with a much slower progression soloing carefully selected easy mobs in outdoor zones where you wouldn't get trained.

I could get behind this channelling narrative if every other caster xp mob didn't gate and every single wizard exp mob in the higher levels drops ice comets non-stop. Leave it alone it's already unclassic anyway.

[Swish]

I remember 3 groups minimum on the goblins in highkeep as well. Now it's 1 camp

This was with bronze armor and fairly low tier vanilla era weapons like https://wiki.project1999.com/Brazen_Brass_Kilij (in 1999 my bard had one of these).

The availability of items here is much greater and more affordable, there's no way to tell people not to be so good at EC and making everyone quest/farm their own stuff.

[azxten]

Yeah I remember in vanilla classic on Povar in cazic thule, there would be a group in each corner of the temple courtyard, and usually a slightly higher level group inside the temple on the second floor. And there seemed to somehow still always be mobs up and trains frequently.

Sigh.. those were the days.

We almost had this again on Green launch and then they instanced the server due to "overcrowding."

The availability of items here is much greater and more affordable

Solo Enchanters dungeon farming items to dump on people when on real live pets were buggy garbage let alone charmed ones.

Lol it’s literally not faster

It literally is and there is a bug report that has the classic ZEMs which is buried with the other 1,000 bug reports explaining why P99 is cheesy easy mode newb shit. Exp on P99 is about 2x classic rates across the board. Also death exp penalty was 2x as bad. Both of those bug reports exist. I believe Rogean said something like, "Whos to say classic didn't have hot zone high ZEMs?" I mean, the classic evidence does, but that all became irrelevant long ago.

[Jimjam]

I could get behind this channelling narrative if every other caster xp mob didn't gate and every single wizard exp mob in the higher levels drops ice comets non-stop. Leave it alone it's already unclassic anyway.

What? No! Lets work on making those things more classic too.

[Jimjam]

This was with bronze armor and fairly low tier vanilla era weapons like https://wiki.project1999.com/Brazen_Brass_Kilij (in 1999 my bard had one of these).

The availability of items here is much greater and more affordable, there's no way to tell people not to be so good at EC and making everyone quest/farm their own stuff.

I remember not being able to afford a drachnid leg tip in kunark but getting a walrus tooth in kurnak. On a TZ rogue. Was like 13 in kunark, 17+ from velious.

[starkind]

Ya lol all of the above posts 100%

Shits almost classic.

Also on live there was bottle necks of almost 2500-3k people per server for the first several years. Many of those people quit, rerolled, or restarted on other servers taking a lot out of the server economy and also slowing down the acquisition of items for people that stayed.

A lot of low end luclin gear was absolutely a big deal when that expansion came out. Because if you weren't one of the 80 ppl on each server with an established main who raided. You where in rags, or a new sub. There was a lot of churn, turn over in the first four years of EQ.

On p99 players are a lot less dynamic and static. Our pop fluctuates very little. And we aren't experimenting as much. Even complete EQ virgins are getting knowledge, experience, and the benefits of prosport level pixel addicts.