Wizard fix

[eqravenprince]

Remove clarity from Enchanter and add to Wizard. This would at least give a group a reason to invite a Wizard. And tone down Enchanter slightly which most agree is OP.

[loramin]

Great idea, but it's incredibly unclassic and will never happen.

However, proposed changes to charm (coming soon?) might make Enchanters a little closer to how they were in classic.

[eqravenprince]

Great idea, but it's incredibly unclassic and will never happen.

I'd argue that tinkering with the game is "classic". Never say never, devs already have tinkered with the game. Altered ZEMs is a good example of this. I'm sure others can chime in with other parts of the game that aren't "classic".

[sajbert]

Old suggestion and non-classic. Hey I’d like theft of thought too.
However, proposed changes to charm (coming soon?) might make Enchanters a little closer to how they were in classic.
Isn’t this just wishful thinking? Is there any thread discussing this with staff weighing in?

[eqravenprince]

Both you guys say non classic but there are plenty of non classic things in game. It's pointless to say non classic in my opinion.

[Tewaz]

The Enchanter toolkit is insane.

Clarity/aoe stun should've gone to Wizards.

Any form of root and mana sieve spells should've gone to Mages.

You could probably pull 4 entire spell lines out of Enchanter and redistributed them and they would still be pretty OP.

[Danth]

I'll quote my own thought from a different recent thread rather than re-type the same thing:

I don't think [adding clarity to the wizard] fixes much. Instead it'd simply turn the wizard into another class that people grudgingly invite because it can cast a single spell every half an hour, without actually raising its single-target damage per minute enough to make people genuinely want it for that role in a typical group. I don't like that type of band-aid effort to improve class desirability. There's too much of that already in EQ. The wizard isn't hopeless as-is. It already solos perfectly well via quadding and its group utility is acceptable with stuns, snares, and evacs. All it really needs is some kind of sustainable single-target damage source so that it can actually keep up with the other damage-oriented classes instead of constantly lagging down near paladin-level. Maybe it needed wizard-only wands through the level spread that could cast spells similar to the VP/Velketor click robes, or simply a dramatic mana efficiency improvement on [some of] its single-target spells. Do something like that and it's fine.

Of course, that type of alternation--minor as it may be--falls outside P99's scope.

[unsunghero]

I feed off class envy. It sustains me

[starkind]

Giving wizards a full manabar lay on hands would be cool. Usable once every 72 mins. Along with a doubly efficient harvest.

And bring their single target dds upto like 12 dpm at high lvl. Give them more single target stuns that land on mobs up to lvl 57 and are .5 seconds casts. Long enough stun so they can run a full 8 seconds lead. Give them a dd line with a blind component. Make that one half the dpm of the efficient line.

A hotkey instant blink or yonder.

Increase their rune strength by half again and also make them .5 seconds cast with slightly cheaper component costs than dots.

All that would bring them in line with how velious melees are tuned and give them solo toolkit options.

[cd288]

Great idea, but it's incredibly unclassic and will never happen.

However, proposed changes to charm (coming soon?) might make Enchanters a little closer to how they were in classic.

Says the guy who literally has barely ever played an enchanter yet goes around telling everyone that his memory of enchanters is the only correct one lol

[branamil]

non-classic.

Why do people keep on parroting classic vs nonclassic anymore? It's obviously not a guiding principle anymore or we'd have unrooted dragons and AoEs that could hit more than 25 things.

[Shac]

interesting idea. obviously it won't happen.

there are non classic things within reason on p99 and people trying to say otherwise aren't being very truthful.

I'd say instead of the already noted suggestions a wizard that can be better at either running or having more abilities to escape that don't involve gating away. A wizard with a Dead Man Floating and a longer duration Damage Shield comparable to other classes.

Interesting thoughts on an custom/improved QOL P99 server in the future.

[starkind]

It's ok to theory craft and hypothetical. So many people here get mad about it tho. From a game dev standpoint classic EQ is an interesting starting point. And on live they balanced wizard with more mana, more mana regen, and a line of higher dpm lower dps spells to use when not burning a mob.

All those changes kept wizards in line with their classic feel and they kept their burst dps options until very late expacs, which then pretty much stopped being upgraded as "burst dps" was completely deleted in favor of dps class balance.

Another improvement to wizards in line with classic would be the addition of low hp, high melee defense, very dangerous mobs that would essentially require high burst dps or stealth/snare/root to play around. (Preferably hard to cc and uncharmable, so they weren't exploited)... mobs which could debuff torpor. And where unslowable. Making wizards necessary and useful, or the kings and queens in some areas, or camps. That'd bring interest back to the game. And a full group could probably utilize all their worse DDs in a pinch in order to get around not having a wiz, it wouldn't be as efficient though.

The itemization, hp, ac, atk tuning just got lazier and lazier and more time gated and cookie cutter with newer expacs and mmos. Thats veliouses biggest problem. Luclin reigned that back with new spells and AA that sort of restored the original "im"balance or feel of wizards, mages, rangers.

[cd288]

Why do people keep on parroting classic vs nonclassic anymore? It's obviously not a guiding principle anymore or we'd have unrooted dragons and AoEs that could hit more than 25 things.

Found the guy who wants easy mode

[Ravager]

Good Wizards get groups. No need for crutches. Learn to stun, root and nuke at the most opportune times and groups will love you and you'll never run out of mana. It's nuanced. A good Wizard keeps things moving at a steady pace and the Enchanter in your group can just drive a pet without anyone needing clarity. Get gud.

[Master Roshi]

I am a great wizard, I pull, snare, root CC and rend robe dps. That being said, unless people know you, you often get the "meh" from most groups initially.

Wizzys really need their epic and a good nuke clicky to be viable in a group setting. But remember, once you can quad you don't need a group.


edit: To the point of un-classic changes, I always felt Wizzys should have got a DMF type spell, but more-so It would give Lev, see-invis, Mana regen, and CR/FR.

[Ravager]

Yeah. It's too bad that they can't gather a bunch of people together and take them to cash camps and high zem dungeons.

[bwe]

Says the guy who literally has barely ever played an enchanter yet goes around telling everyone that his memory of enchanters is the only correct one lol


Oh hey it's this guy in an enchanter thread

[Vivitron]

My idea: dd-breaks-root should have been restricted to single target spells. Get 3-4 non-summoners in camp? Let the druid or wizard blow them up.

I'll quote my own thought from a different recent thread rather than re-type the same thing:

It really would have been good if wizards got decent sustained dps from click itemization throughout the timeline.

[cd288]

Good Wizards get groups. No need for crutches. Learn to stun, root and nuke at the most opportune times and groups will love you and you'll never run out of mana. It's nuanced. A good Wizard keeps things moving at a steady pace and the Enchanter in your group can just drive a pet without anyone needing clarity. Get gud.

I mean the problem with this statement is that almost every casting class can root. Stun? Can be nice to have but in many groups it’s not really that needed you’re burning through mobs so fast and usually your tank can just interrupt a caster with a bash. Unfortunately a wizard just doesn’t bring that much to the table

[Jibartik]

No. Give wizards an AR-15

[Kiithsa]

Don't get me started....

Wizards are mostly fine as they are, the only thing I would change is either make nukes bigger or more mana efficient, or both. The reason groups don't take wizards is b/c most people that play them are lazy.

You can't just DPS, you need to find ways to contribute. One of my favorite things is to watch the puller bring in 3-4 mobs and then snare them all, run them around and root park. Watch for healers and gaters, wizards are great at preventing mobs from casting. Don't just nuke everything, be opportunistic, wait for a chance to delete a mob that is giving the group trouble.

Things like that, if you're relying on nukes alone you're doing it wrong.

[Jimjam]

Don't get me started....

Wizards are mostly fine as they are, the only thing I would change is either make nukes bigger or more mana efficient, or both. The reason groups don't take wizards is b/c most people that play them are lazy.

You can't just DPS, you need to find ways to contribute. One of my favorite things is to watch the puller bring in 3-4 mobs and then snare them all, run them around and root park. Watch for healers and gaters, wizards are great at preventing mobs from casting. Don't just nuke everything, be opportunistic, wait for a chance to delete a mob that is giving the group trouble.

Things like that, if you're relying on nukes alone you're doing it wrong.
Hell, you can do all this and med while pulling with an eye. The drop down in the hole after the swim in entry is great for this. Bash can miss (especially with an SKs skills!) so having redundancy on stuns is good.

[eqravenprince]

The reason groups don't take wizards is b/c most people that play them are lazy.

I played a wizard, I wasn't lazy and even I can tell a huge difference on what I brought to a group. If I wanted efficiency, I'd take a Magician over a Wizard every day and twice on Sunday. I'd even argue a Magician without a pet is worth more to a group than a Wizard.

[starkind]

No. Give wizards an AR-15

duel wield ar17s

[ReoDobbs]

I'd even argue a Magician without a pet is worth more to a group than a Wizard.

Just stop

[Jimjam]

I played a wizard, I wasn't lazy and even I can tell a huge difference on what I brought to a group. If I wanted efficiency, I'd take a Magician over a Wizard every day and twice on Sunday. I'd even argue a Magician without a pet is worth more to a group than a Wizard.

Why would you argue that? Doing a lot of grouping in lavastorm with melee that haven't saved up for a magic weapon yet?

[Jibartik]

Don't get me started....

Wizards are mostly fine as they are, the only thing I would change is either make nukes bigger or more mana efficient, or both. The reason groups don't take wizards is b/c most people that play them are lazy.

You can't just DPS, you need to find ways to contribute. One of my favorite things is to watch the puller bring in 3-4 mobs and then snare them all, run them around and root park. Watch for healers and gaters, wizards are great at preventing mobs from casting. Don't just nuke everything, be opportunistic, wait for a chance to delete a mob that is giving the group trouble.

Things like that, if you're relying on nukes alone you're doing it wrong.

more mana efficient,

also auto nuke

:(

[eqravenprince]

Why would you argue that? Doing a lot of grouping in lavastorm with melee that haven't saved up for a magic weapon yet?

Ice Comet 2.8 DPM
Lava Bolt 2.7 DPM

DS will cover that difference plus some. So right there alone Magician > Wizard. Add pet and it's a HUGE difference.

[Ravager]

I mean the problem with this statement is that almost every casting class can root. Stun? Can be nice to have but in many groups it’s not really that needed you’re burning through mobs so fast and usually your tank can just interrupt a caster with a bash. Unfortunately a wizard just doesn’t bring that much to the table

Guess I've been playing wizard wrong this entire time then. I'll try to be more useless in groups in the future.

[Ravager]

Don't get me started....

Wizards are mostly fine as they are, the only thing I would change is either make nukes bigger or more mana efficient, or both. The reason groups don't take wizards is b/c most people that play them are lazy.

You can't just DPS, you need to find ways to contribute. One of my favorite things is to watch the puller bring in 3-4 mobs and then snare them all, run them around and root park. Watch for healers and gaters, wizards are great at preventing mobs from casting. Don't just nuke everything, be opportunistic, wait for a chance to delete a mob that is giving the group trouble.

Things like that, if you're relying on nukes alone you're doing it wrong.

This guy gets it. Useful things are useful.

[Skarne]

Wizards usually have big foreheads which means they also got big hats

[cd288]

Guess I've been playing wizard wrong this entire time then. I'll try to be more useless in groups in the future.

Not saying it’s bad to do that stuff as a wizard, but thanks for the sarcasm. I’m saying there’s no need to take a wizard in the group just because they can do those things since you can already cover that utility with way more useful classes. Unfortunately wizards were just structured in a way that didn’t work well for the way people played the game (which was different from how the devs thought they’d play it).

[Ravager]

Not saying it’s bad to do that stuff as a wizard, but thanks for the sarcasm. I’m saying there’s no need to take a wizard in the group just because they can do those things since you can already cover that utility with way more useful classes. Unfortunately wizards were just structured in a way that didn’t work well for the way people played the game (which was different from how the devs thought they’d play it).

No, the unfortunate thing is that people perpetuate this kind of thinking which keeps some classes out of groups. This game is EASY. There's a walkthrough for everything. The most fun I've had in this game has been when playing janky group compositions, and yes, that requires some level of competence using your class to the best of its ability. But go ahead and min-max. Wizards don't need fixing.

[Sacer]

The problem is mostly the people playing wizard wrong, I am sure like me you've seen plenty of wizard nuke a mob to death dumping their whole manapool, tanking it from start to finish then med for 5minutes while burning 50% of the cleric manapool, that's not useful no one wants to group with you after seeing that.

But wizards are great pullers, they can root park mobs, burst the nasty mobs the group is having trouble on, the occasional evac, porting people to a less populated area that kind of things. If they all played like that it would be much easier for them to find a group.

[cd288]

No, the unfortunate thing is that people perpetuate this kind of thinking which keeps some classes out of groups. This game is EASY. There's a walkthrough for everything. The most fun I've had in this game has been when playing janky group compositions, and yes, that requires some level of competence using your class to the best of its ability. But go ahead and min-max. Wizards don't need fixing.

I mean I don’t see groups turning down a wizard if they have an open spot and no one else is around. I see people turning down a wizard if there is another DPS class available. There’s no reason to take a wizard over any other dps class because wizard dps can’t compare and wizards don’t bring anything beneficial that you can’t get from another class.

[ReoDobbs]

Ice Comet 2.8 DPM
Lava Bolt 2.7 DPM

DS will cover that difference plus some. So right there alone Magician > Wizard. Add pet and it's a HUGE difference.

What? So we're just picking lvl 49 spells to make our point? Wizard spells get more and more mana efficient for a wiz post 50. Mage's strongest point in the game is 39-49

Let's try actually making a comparison of end game:

Wizards highest nuke=4.0 dpm
Mage's highest nuke=3.1 dpm

This is before taking into effect that most mages are going to be specialized in Conjuration and most Wizards Evocations so the mana efficiency even goes more lopsided towards the wizard than the above numbers. In general things also tend to have higher fire resistances than cold resistances.

What a sketchy way to try to prove your point...

[evilwizard]

things that need to be done in order to make wizards even remotely viable (other than being port/tl bots):
-reduce mana cost on all wizard spells by 50%
-reduce cast time on most spells
-reduce or remove reagent requirements on self rune spells
-line of instant cast damage spells that trigger gcd so that they'd be used as a finisher, or in groups you could cast+insta and then sit and be considered useful

the class itself is just designed poorly. that's what you get from a 1990s mmo. devs could make this server an amazing experience, but instead they're cucked by nostalgia and in turn we all get to snowball our fake enjoyment back and forth forever

[unsunghero]

things that need to be done in order to make wizards even remotely viable (other than being port/tl bots):
-reduce mana cost on all wizard spells by 50%
-reduce cast time on most spells
-reduce or remove reagent requirements on self rune spells
-line of instant cast damage spells that trigger gcd so that they'd be used as a finisher, or in groups you could cast+insta and then sit and be considered useful

the class itself is just designed poorly. that's what you get from a 1990s mmo. devs could make this server an amazing experience, but instead they're cucked by nostalgia and in turn we all get to snowball our fake enjoyment back and forth forever

Not just here

Even WoW Classic Season of Mastery servers going on right now that have harder raid bosses with new mechanics, increased quest exp, removal of the “world buff meta” and a host of other changes does not have class balancing, to a LOT of players’ dismay

That leaves ret paladin, boomkin druid, feral druid, resto druid (yup that’s the entire druid class), elemental shaman, enhancement shaman, survival hunter as 100% gimp. And when I say gimp, I mean to where even casual guilds will not let you run that spec in raids. Also if you want to play that spec, few guilds will even let you join because they are so terrible

Anyway, class balancing on private servers for both games would be interesting

[loramin]

Personally I'd love to see some Blue custom content that addresses this stuff more subtly.

If there was (say) a new custom drop that Wizards could get to let them deal better sustained damage (either by being a JBB-like clickie, or a focus effect, or whatever) it could still fit the goal of this place, while improving class viability.

Mages, Paladins, and other unpopular classes could similarly get a playability boost with just one or two new items ... if they were the right items.

[eqravenprince]

What? So we're just picking lvl 49 spells to make our point? Wizard spells get more and more mana efficient for a wiz post 50. Mage's strongest point in the game is 39-49

Let's try actually making a comparison of end game:

Wizards highest nuke=4.0 dpm
Mage's highest nuke=3.1 dpm

This is before taking into effect that most mages are going to be specialized in Conjuration and most Wizards Evocations so the mana efficiency even goes more lopsided towards the wizard than the above numbers. In general things also tend to have higher fire resistances than cold resistances.

What a sketchy way to try to prove your point...

Interesting that you point out my sketchy way that covers levels 1-50 but your way is not sketchy that covers end game. Way to go, pot calling the kettle black.

[starkind]

I'm going to argue that luclin had the best AAs and best class balance of every expansion. And the entire game should be balanced around luclin ! (this was the point prior to the immense stat/aa bloat of pop and over complexification/grind that Time required).

I think the simple addition of a high DPM/mid range dps (sustained) spell line for wizard would solve their problems with group desirability cuz all anyone seems to care about is 'sustained dps'.

[cd288]

Interesting that you point out my sketchy way that covers levels 1-50 but your way is not sketchy that covers end game. Way to go, pot calling the kettle black.

Lol I agree. Like “oh wizards are much better at end game so you should totally take my crappy wizard in your group all the way from level 1 until then”

[ReoDobbs]

Interesting that you point out my sketchy way that covers levels 1-50 but your way is not sketchy that covers end game. Way to go, pot calling the kettle black.

Good to see you've come to your sense and stopped trying to argue the ridiculous claim you attempted to make in the first place.

[ReoDobbs]

Lol I agree. Like “oh wizards are much better at end game so you should totally take my crappy wizard in your group all the way from level 1 until then”

The whole point that is being argued is that he thinks mages without a pet are better than Wizard for a group. Throughout 1-48 and 50-60 the dpm difference is much more extreme than the ONE data point he purposely chose.

A mage, which has a pet, is almost always going to be the better pick. That's not where the dude went though.

[starkind]

if u ever seen a full on geared out lvl 60 wizard with like torpor level gears like the effort put in for epic, and all that stuff u would be like hmmm 'thats kind of a cool and interesting class'

problem is everyone remembers naked newbie wizards from like lvl 30 in guk lol

You should make wizard friends just as hard as u make torp shaman and enchanter/cleric friends

[Jibartik]

I feel like wizards should have been more of a group buff class.

Like a bard but more wizardy some how.

And just leave their DPS alone.

Funny, basically Im saying give them C instead of enchanter.

But think about how like, in LOTR gandalf is just providing support really, lighting up the room.

Wizards should have had something idk, to make them have more of that DnD feel of having magical utility spells

I guess they tried to do that with magicians but nobody needs bags that eat their gear lol

Maybe an ability to summon group members from different zones like a COTH+ would have been cool, or to be able to warp to party members, and then warp them back to the group if they got stuck pulling im sure a version of COTH in mistmoore levels would be helpful.

/warp mq2 spell would have been rad for them.

[eqravenprince]

Good to see you've come to your sense and stopped trying to argue the ridiculous claim you attempted to make in the first place.

No, is it really that ridiculous? I still believe a petless magician > wizard levels 1-50. Nukes are practically the same. So the comparison is do you believe root is worth more than DS, Malo, Summoned Items.

[Vivitron]

I guess they tried to do that with magicians but nobody needs bags that eat their gear lol


As long as we're fixing things let's make no rent bags leave their contents on your cursor instead of eating them.

[unsunghero]

But think about how like, in LOTR gandalf is just providing support really, lighting up the room.



This is more due to the nature of Gandalf though. He’s not really a wizard, and he’s not human. He’s an angelic being, and his “powers” are more divine than magical. Because of this, he’s restricted to not using his power to cause direct change to Middle Earth. Instead his role is meant to be more of a guide/advisor, and to encourage others to do the right thing. When he does use his powers, he deliberately only uses the bare minimum amount needed to accomplish his goal

[starkind]

As long as we're fixing things let's make no rent bags leave their contents on your cursor instead of eating them.

On live they just turn into like 25 wt bags that are no drop so u need to resummon them.

[Jimjam]

if u ever seen a full on geared out lvl 60 wizard with like torpor level gears like the effort put in for epic, and all that stuff u would be like hmmm 'thats kind of a cool and interesting class'

problem is everyone remembers naked newbie wizards from like lvl 30 in guk lol

You should make wizard friends just as hard as u make torp shaman and enchanter/cleric friends

Instaport to sky necklace is an amazing get out of jail free card.

[Jibartik]

I have an idea make them more like rangers and rangers more like wizards.

[Gustoo]

Wizards have a lot of utility but a lot of it is shared by other classes.

They should at the very least have the only spell that provides invis and invis to undead, and the regular versions of those spells should be not stackable.

Player summoning would be a cool thing but combined with that kind of invis spell it might be way too easy to get people into dungeons.

I think they should have paladin level dps overall but consisting of more 50 percent mob HP execution style spells so they’re finishing mobs left and right with some kinda dice roll. It equals pally dps but all at once.

I love the wizard class but I’m happy to be one of the few.

[ReoDobbs]

No, is it really that ridiculous? I still believe a petless magician > wizard levels 1-50. Nukes are practically the same. So the comparison is do you believe root is worth more than DS, Malo, Summoned Items.

No, it is completely ridiculous, almost every nuke hits for more and has more dpm by a significant margin. There's two different spans Mages go 10 levels between a nuke upgrade too. And yes I think snare, root, evac, teleport is worth more than DS, a worse shaman Malo, and summoned items (lol)

[Swish]

I'd like to meet an active group wizard that doesn't have an enchanter/bard/necro to CC.

Then the wizard uses their stuns and roots to CC mobs away from the main combat.


...but oh wait, netflix is better. Get outta here lazy wizards.

[Sabin76]

No, it is completely ridiculous, almost every nuke hits for more and has more dpm by a significant margin. There's two different spans Mages go 10 levels between a nuke upgrade too. And yes I think snare, root, evac, teleport is worth more than DS, a worse shaman Malo, and summoned items (lol)

Just to set the record straight, the only "malo" a mage gets that is a worse version of the shaman one is the unresistable one at the end of the line (Mala vs Malo). All others are the exact same spell. Mages simply get it a couple levels after Shaman.

...and, because I decided to start typing this response, I might as well go all in by comparing the nukes for everyone (based on the wiki, so ymmv):

If multiple ST nukes were learned in a single level, I chose the one with the higher dpm. In case of a tie, I chose the one with the higher damage.

Level 1 Nukes -
Mage: Burst of Flame (5/7 = 0.71 dpm)
Wizard: Shock of Frost (6/8 = 0.75 dpm)

Level 4 Nukes -
Mage: Burn (14/15 = 0.93 dpm)
Wizard: Shock of Fire (15/16 = 0.94 dpm)

Level 8 Nukes -
Mage: Flame Bolt (47/40 = 1.18 dpm)
Wizard: Fire Bolt (51/40 = 1.28 dpm)

Level 12 Nukes -
Mage: Nothing new, unless you count Ward Summoned (41/30 = 1.37 dpm)
Wizard: Shock of Lightning (83/60 = 1.38 dpm)

Level 16 Nukes -
Mage: Shock of Flame (97/70 = 1.39 dpm)
Wizard: Flame Shock (110/75 = 1.47 dpm)

Level 20 Nukes -
Mage: Bolt of Flame (156/105 = 1.49 dpm)
Wizard: Force Shock (179/120 = 1.49 dpm + interrupt)

Level 24 Nukes -
Mage: Shock of Spikes (176/110 = 1.60 dpm)
Wizard: Frost Shock (187/110 = 1.70 dpm)

Level 29 Nukes -
Mage: Nothing new, unless you count Dismiss Summoned (162/90 = 1.80 dpm)
Wizard: Inferno Shock (250/135 = 1.85 dpm)

Level 34 Nukes -
Mage: Cinder Bolt (333/175 = 1.90 dpm)
Wizard: Ice Shock (320/160 = 2.00 dpm)

Level 39 Nukes -
Mage: Nothing new, unless you count Expel Summoned (273/130 = 2.1 dpm)
Wizard: Lightning Shock (405/180 = 2.25 dpm)

Level 44 Nukes -
Mage: Shock of Swords (600/250 = 2.40 dpm)
Wizard: Force Strike (625/250 = 2.50 dpm + interrupt)
*A couple other things here... Mages get a DoT that does 600/240 = 2.50 dpm and Wizards get their first fire lure.

Level 49 Nukes -
Mage: Lava Bolt (810/300 = 2.70 dpm)
Wizard: Ice Comet (1120/400 = 2.80 dpm)

Levels 50-60 -

Mage: Get their first DD upgrade at 52 for 711/245 = 2.90 dpm with Char, get a low dpm (2.57) but high dps* (225) nuke at 54 with Scars of Sigil, get their second DoT 1010/265 = 3.81 dpm) at 55 with Wrath of the Elements, get their first** 3.00+ dpm nuke with Shock of Steel at 57 and finally cap out with their highest damage + most mana efficient nuke with Seeking Flame of Seukor (1024/320 = 3.20 dpm).
* This can be chain cast as the time it takes to click your GDC is enough to counteract the 0.25 second difference between cast time and recover time.
** An evocation-spec'd mage will be at 3.00+ dpm well before this, and Shock of Steel will be useless since it's a conjuration spell.

Wizard: Get their first 3.00+ dpm nuke at 51 with Draught of Fire (688/215 = 3.20 dpm) which is also a great dps nuke at 229. At 52 they get their ice lure. At 54 they get the magic-based version of Draught of Fire with Voltaic Draught. At 55, they get an interrupt added onto the it with Draught of Jiva as well as a fire lure on par with the ice lure from 52. At 57 they get their ice-based draught, which is an upgrade in efficiency as well (731/215 = 3.40 dpm). At 58, they get their magic-based lure. And finally at 60 they get their most efficient and hardest hitting nukes in Ice Spear of Solist (1200/300 = 4.00 dpm), Sunstrike (1615/450 = 3.59 dpm), and the bane spells (2000/450 = 4.44 dpm).

TLDR: ReoDobbs is right in that a wizard's nuke are (almost) always more damage and more efficient.

I think the biggest difference is that what a mage brings to the group is both passive and active, whereas a wizard is only active, but this argument seems to be about mages and wizards both nuking without a mage pet in the mix...

[Jimjam]

On the subject of nuke efficiency, and the DS magicians offer and segueying back to hopeless unclassic wishlisting for 'fixing wizards'...

O'Keil's Radiation is a level 4 wizard spell with a Damage Shield Seconds per mana equivalent to the 60 magician DS (about 30 - but admittedly it is much worse practically on account of only being 2 damage and not being a group buff).

The wizard receives an 'upgrade' with Velious at 34 (O'Keill's Flickering Flame) which doubles the damage per hit (from 2 to 4-5 depending on level), slightly increases the duration but costs 115 mana instead of 15 and keeps the fire resist at +10. It always felt pretty limp.

A part of my unclassic 'wizard fix' would be to make this spell actually feel like an upgrade, instead of being a worse damage shield second per mana than it's predecessor.

Clearly the design philosophy was against giving wizards a powerful single target damage shield - so I will respect that with my fix. The 29 magician DS has about 40 Damage Shield Seconds per mana, and 20 fire resist. I believe the 34 Velious Wizard DS should be similarly mana effective, if not so much damage per hit. As such, my suggestion is to up the duration of O'Keil's Flickering Flame from ~5 to 15 minutes at level 60.

This will make it more efficient than the level 4 version, roughly similar in efficiency to the 29 mage counterpart, but no more powerful per hit.

This isn't my be all and end all fix, but I think it is a good way to gently improve a spell which otherwise never gets used.

[starkind]

Wizard nuke dpm should be like dot efficiency since they are behind necromancer without pets, faer, mana regen..

Maybe one point under. 7 dpm, lowermiddps nuke at 60, plus harvest being 3x more efficient. A 30 second root which doesn't break early to damage and has like a 3 dpm damage component.

Wizards would be fine. They wouldn't be the most brokenly OP popular class.

[Kiithsa]

Personally I try not to get into the number crunching of it all. I have fun playing wizard and however much they lack in efficiency doesn't seem to affect me too much.

This is a game after all. Are you having fun? This is what matters

[cd288]

No, it is completely ridiculous, almost every nuke hits for more and has more dpm by a significant margin. There's two different spans Mages go 10 levels between a nuke upgrade too. And yes I think snare, root, evac, teleport is worth more than DS, a worse shaman Malo, and summoned items (lol)

The problem is mage isn’t the only other dps class in the game

[Ooloo]

Personally I try not to get into the number crunching of it all. I have fun playing wizard and however much they lack in efficiency doesn't seem to affect me too much.

This is a game after all. Are you having fun? This is what matters

Yeah pretty much, and also when people get into min\max efficiency discussions like this it becomes totally mathematical and the human element gets left out. A terribly-played mage will be more of a group liability than a very excellently-played wizard.

It's funny to think about back in classic vanilla where camps would have lists of names of people waiting to get into the group, entirely organized by the players, and you'd just take whoever was next on the list regardless of their class.

[cd288]

Yeah pretty much, and also when people get into min\max efficiency discussions like this it becomes totally mathematical and the human element gets left out. A terribly-played mage will be more of a group liability than a very excellently-played wizard.

It's funny to think about back in classic vanilla where camps would have lists of names of people waiting to get into the group, entirely organized by the players, and you'd just take whoever was next on the list regardless of their class.

I mean you definitely wouldn’t take whoever was next on the list if you didn’t have a healer or tank and needed one lol. Or if you already had like a Druid people definitely wouldn’t take another. Although generally on P99 with group lists my experience is that if a dps class is needed you’re not like skipping around the list; it’s only an issue if you have a spot open and you have a wizard and another dps both LFG in the zone.

What was more crazy to me about back in the day was people thought the lowest member of the group took the most exp lol. So you had these groups taking higher level people and turning away the lower levels thinking they were maximizing their exp. Little did they know

[Castle2.0]

A terribly-played mageStopped reading here.

Sorry to break it to ya fellas, EQ is a low skill game, especially in the context of being 20+ years old and we all know it.

Have fun, just don't pretend there is some serious skill involved.

[Keza]

Sorry to break it to ya fellas, EQ is a low skill game

Soooo you're saying it's impossible to play a mage well or poorly and that everyone is just as effective as the next person? Though I do agree that EQ is low skill even for the most difficult classes, it's absurd to suggest that you can't play a class poorly just for the sake of letting everyone know that it's a low-skill game as if they didn't already know.

Given that mages and wizards fall into the same category I think their comment is totally viable in that comparison. Some idiot playing a mage is going to be less effective than a wizard whose actually trying to not be useless, but the argument of balance in regards to whether or not a fictional person is slacking off is total nonsense to begin with as it's dependent on context. Delving further into quotes, a game can't be fun if you know you're the useless anchor no one wants; aka the wizard.

Anyway, this thread is basically "nerf ench/shaman", which any sane person would agree with, but we also all know it's never gonna happen.

[starkind]

The only way for us to resolve this thread is for 150 of us to run around in a lvl 60 only wizard guild deleting entire zones.

[NPC]

You want the easiest, least invasive, laziest 'fix' for wizards? Just lower the cool down time on Harvest to like 1-2 min. All fixed.
Maybe give them an easy to acquire clicky mana free DD like the mage's have would be nice too.

[Kiithsa]

The only way for us to resolve this thread is for 150 of us to run around in a lvl 60 only wizard guild deleting entire zones.

I approve of this