Regarding major changes

[kanras]

I wanted to address something from another thread.

I'm still playing and enjoying it. But I'd have to say if I do quit it'll be because of sweeping mechanics changes that don't appear to be tested at all before being patched in and then left broken for weeks at a time.

Tuning things to make them like classic, implementing mechanics that should have been there, those are fine. But it doesn't seem like even the slightest bit of testing is being performed to ensure that these changes are behaving the way they're expected to.

I, of course, would agree completely that more testing is better. And I do apologize for those unintended nerfs that people have had to endure.

Regardless, if you have weathered the storm of the last few patches, then it's relatively smooth sailing from here on out. These were the last major negative changes on my list. So hopefully we can work together on ironing out any remaining issues. I think you'll find a much more classic feel when all is said and done.

[kanras]

Just to give you an idea of how my time spent is allocated on this project, this is my best guess:

Research: 70%
Testing: 25%
Implementing: 5%

But there's really only so much I can catch when testing, and that's usually limited to what changes were intended. I always try to correct the unintended consequences as quickly as possible, as I hope you folks have realized by now.

[Rais]

Thank you for this post. I would just like to say,there is a small batch of people willing to test new changes before they go live. Sure there wernt that many for kunark beta,but there are people willing to do the dirty work on a test server for simulated patches to make sure the patch is doing what is intended.

The biggest issues people have with patches,isn't the nerfs. It's the bugs that happen when coding is changed and things are jacked up for 2 weeks or longer. It stuff that effectively changes a class's ability and we have to work through making bug posts and hope for a response or a shrug of the shoulders assuming we are wrong in what we see. Many things aren't even replied on in the bug section on issues.

You have been doing updates on things you work on,and thats wonderful. But there is other stuff that players have no idea if the list of things being worked on needs more info,or just put on the back burner. So we don't know as the player base what we can do to help you guys. You have an army of EQ nerds willing to help make it easier for you!

In short

Bring up the test server again,have people test what you are fixing or changing,and have the test server stimulate the patch. Use the people who want to help and make it easier over all for the devs. It's a ton of stuff to do with just a few devs. So I'm sure you're putting in tons of time. Just make use of the people wanting to help.

[kanras]

The biggest issues people have with patches,isn't the nerfs. It's the bugs that happen when coding is changed and things are jacked up for 2 weeks or longer.

Yes, it does suck. But I would hope that when unintended things get jacked up and make things harder between one patch and the next (when it gets fixed), you could take into consideration that in most cases it was jacked up in your favor for the last 20 months.


Bring up the test server again,have people test what you are fixing or changing,and have the test server stimulate the patch. Use the people who want to help and make it easier over all for the devs. It's a ton of stuff to do with just a few devs. So I'm sure you're putting in tons of time. Just make use of the people wanting to help.

Other than testing of content, I would make the case that the test server didn't accomplish much. But again, there's nothing else on the horizon of this magnitude.

[baalzy]

Thank you Kanras. Despite the negativity in my comment I feel that you're doing a great job towards achieving the servers goal. I also appreciate how open you are about the changes, you reasons behind them, and what you expect the changes to do.

That last part helps the most, you clarifying what you expect the changes to do cause then it allows us to point out when it's behaving differently.

[Skope]

Maybe can haz bonus exp weekend? :P It's pretty painful playing a mage at the moment.

[Troy]

Maybe can haz bonus exp weekend? :P It's pretty painful playing a mage at the moment.

What it takes you 25 minutes per yellow instead of 15?

[Rogean]

Also realize that we can only test so much.. most coding changes are tested by the coder implementing the change on local test servers with only himself to load up clients with, and theres simply so many possible ways mechanics can do things that were unintentional or unforeseeable when you factor in hundreds of players doing hundreds of things at once.

We don't have a test server, and even in the times we did, nobody tests on it.

[Amelinda]

PS! Kanras told me to tell you all if you are angry about his changes to please PM him hatemail. he doesn't feel hated enough :(

;)

[Slave]

Yes, it does suck. But I would hope that when unintended things get jacked up and make things harder between one patch and the next (when it gets fixed), you could take into consideration that in most cases it was jacked up in your favor for the last 20 months.



Geez, where was I for this? Oh yeah, playing... you guys seem to always fall on the side of nerfing our butts when there's even a slight choice. It's just a perception that the population has and has been there for the entire time I've played. I love your posts in this thread though, and everyone is human we know and we don't assign MUCH blame.

What I don't understand is, why not just patch in everything that happened up till Velious, right away? We KNOW what the patch history is, we know what they wanted to do with Classic. Just put it all in at once!! (except nerfed items ofc, leave them in with the proper timeline.) And all will be gumdrops and roses.

First they nerfed the druids, and I didn't speak out because I was not a druid.
Then they nerfed the mages, and I didn't speak out because I was not a mage.
Then they nerfed the monks, and I didn't speak out because I was not a monk.
Then they nerfed me, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[Fist_The_Lord]

My biggest problem isn't the bugs, even though i have multiple toons in erudin that can't leave without a port because the skiff is broken, which by the way, i notice 3 GM's posting here, but no posts from any of you in the thread about the skiff being broken. And my problem isn't the nerfs, even though i play a druid. My problem is with what little gm interaction i have had. The only feedback i have gotten from gm's, is when i am doing something "wrong" or the occasional shut the fuck up and take it posts from the local p99 sheriff, Uthgaard. Rogean, when SOE was down, you sounded like you wanted more people to join p99, but why would i tell friends to come here if your team of dev's is just going to shit on them? I mean you guys are quick to change an "inappropriate" name, your quick to stop people from using /ooc to buy things, even though /auction is kinda contradictory when purchasing, but not a single response on the skiff. Honestly, don't you think thats kinda bullshit?

[formallydickman]

First they nerfed the druids, and I didn't speak out because I was not a druid.
Then they nerfed the mages, and I didn't speak out because I was not a mage.
Then they nerfed the monks, and I didn't speak out because I was not a monk.
Then they nerfed me, and there was no one left to speak out for me.

You should probably take a step back and realize how ridiculous you sound : /

[kanras]

What I don't understand is, why not just patch in everything that happened up till Velious, right away? We KNOW what the patch history is, we know what they wanted to do with Classic. Just put it all in at once!! (except nerfed items ofc, leave them in with the proper timeline.) And all will be gumdrops and roses.

If there were a switch to flip, it would have been done Oct. 2009. You're severely underestimating the time it takes (mostly in research) a handful of people to reverse engineer all of these formulas.

My biggest problem isn't the bugs, even though i have multiple toons in erudin that can't leave without a port because the skiff is broken, which by the way, i notice 3 GM's posting here, but no posts from any of you in the thread about the skiff being broken.... but not a single response on the skiff. Honestly, don't you think thats kinda bullshit?

I spent an hour trying to recreate the erudin shuttle bug on my test server about 30 minutes after the post first went up. The shuttle worked consistently. I tried a blind fix in this patch for what I thought might have been causing the problem. It apparently didn't work. Unless the bug gets fixed, there's no point in me addressing it. The reality is still that you'll have to petition or swim out to the boat yourself in order to get to Qeynos.

[fauxreigner]

Out of curiosity, without a working live server circa 2001, how do you reverse engineer these formulae to actually be classic?

[Shiggy]

Out of curiosity, without a working live server circa 2001, how do you reverse engineer these formulae to actually be classic?

They are really smart. :)

[nbirdy]

Those of you who complain about all of the free gaming you receive should be ashamed of yourselves.

Seriously. Errors in code happen.

[fauxreigner]

Errors in code happen.

Real talk.

By the sound of it, there's not really a test environment to find said errors either.

[Rotted_Corpse]

Very cool. TY for the post Kanras!

Rotted Corpse
Necromancer of Cabilis

[Slave]

If there were a switch to flip, it would have been done Oct. 2009. You're severely underestimating the time it takes (mostly in research) a handful of people to reverse engineer all of these formulas.


I probably am. Thank you for your posts, they were very informative and it's always uplifting to have direct discourse with developers, something that I think a lot of people here take for granted. It's really something else. To hear that you'd LIKE to skip through the updates as soon as possible, as opposed to just churning out the same mistakes on the same timeline, is something I've not heard here before.

[Slave]

You should probably take a step back and realize how ridiculous you sound : /

I know; there's still the holy trinity, right? Let's just all be warriors, clerics, and enchanters.

[Trademaster]

You should probably take a step back and realize how ridiculous you sound : /

It's an adaptation of a famous quote by Martin Niemöller. Learn history.

[soup]

It's an adaptation of a famous quote by Martin Niemöller. Learn history.

I think that was his point. The original context of the quote vs. the applied context in this instance.

[formallydickman]

It's an adaptation of a famous quote by Martin Niemöller. Learn history.

No shit genius. Nazi purging =/= Nerfs on P99

[Slave]

Because paying homage and drawing attention to it is the same thing as shitting on it and equating it with p99 nerfs. Rather zealous with your overapplication of Godwin wouldn't you say?

[Zigfreed]

Shit happens.

That said, I think you and Nilbog are the best. Level headed and reasonable/responsive even when stuff is being thrown at you guys. Some of the other folks here can be uhh a little (unnecessarily?) acerbic. To use the Oliver asking for more food example, Rogean will tell you No and cut you bad with wit while Uthgaaaaaaard will say How dare you ask, slap you and then sell you to Fagin himself if he deems you to be wasting time/effort. Not that I've ever had any personal interactions with the GM staff, had no problems or caused any that I know of. Just how it sometimes seems to me from the outside! I'm pretty sure I'd become Uthgaaaaard in about a week if the chance was forced on me tho since many of you are cocks.

Anyways.. TLDR You do good work /attaboy

[aresprophet]

once again 3 gm's posting in this thread and none posting in the bugged erudin skiff thread. ANYONE ELSE SEE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?

Kanras doesn't care about Erudites.

http://www.willisms.com/archives/kanyewest.gif

[kanras]

To hear that you'd LIKE to skip through the updates as soon as possible, as opposed to just churning out the same mistakes on the same timeline, is something I've not heard here before.

Oops. I misunderstood what you were saying. Given infinite time to develop them, I would like to see virtually all of the same mistakes made.

[Slave]

Oops. I misunderstood what you were saying. Given infinite time to develop them, I would like to see virtually all of the same mistakes made.

I cannot applaud this postion, for reasons that are far too numerous and SHOULD be far too obvious to even mention.

[Pudge]

I spent an hour trying to recreate the erudin shuttle bug on my test server about 30 minutes after the post first went up. The shuttle worked consistently. I tried a blind fix in this patch for what I thought might have been causing the problem. It apparently didn't work. Unless the bug gets fixed, there's no point in me addressing it. The reality is still that you'll have to petition or swim out to the boat yourself in order to get to Qeynos.

i think it's just that ppl would lik eto hear that you are at least looking into it.. that you confirmed it doesn't work and are tryin gto fix it. they posted forever on the issue, and the only GM word they got was "the boat works, don't know wtf you're talking about" from uthgaard.

i quick post to acknowledge the bug is prob all they wanted. same with other bugs. another example, the fungi tunic drop rate was ninja-patched.. not a word from devs in the thread either. just to say a couple words will make the playerbase feel like they're being heard and not ignored by their GMs

[Greyhands]

I wanted to address something from another thread.



I, of course, would agree completely that more testing is better. And I do apologize for those unintended nerfs that people have had to endure.

Regardless, if you have weathered the storm of the last few patches, then it's relatively smooth sailing from here on out. These were the last major negative changes on my list. So hopefully we can work together on ironing out any remaining issues. I think you'll find a much more classic feel when all is said and done.

You know what I think you are doing a great job don't listen to the whiny bitches.

[Dr4z3r]

What I don't understand is, why not just patch in everything that happened up till Velious, right away? We KNOW what the patch history is, we know what they wanted to do with Classic. Just put it all in at once!! (except nerfed items ofc, leave them in with the proper timeline.) And all will be gumdrops and roses.

The ups & downs are part of the classic ride. Why would you want Velious-era rogue damage formulas to apply when the level cap is 50? That just doesn't make sense, nor does it respect the mission of recreating vanilla-through-Velious Everquest.

Without changes the server will quickly stangnate, and the only set of changes that can be agreed upon as objective changes are the ones that were made by Verant/Sony. When we start accepting deviations from that in the name of "improving" things, it can become impossible to separate what's actually a change for the better and what's just appeasement for the loudest whiners.

[Fist_The_Lord]

@Kanras Ty for the response but couldn't someone have acknowledged it. I mean we report bugs on the forums to make the server a better place. All i wanted was a simple "bug noted" post from a gm. I do appreciate that you responded here in this thread but maybe somebody should stop by the actual bugged skiff thread and tell the other 5 pages of posters.

[Deathrydar]

i think it's just that ppl would lik eto hear that you are at least looking into it.. that you confirmed it doesn't work and are tryin gto fix it. they posted forever on the issue, and the only GM word they got was "the boat works, don't know wtf you're talking about" from uthgaard.

i quick post to acknowledge the bug is prob all they wanted. same with other bugs. another example, the fungi tunic drop rate was ninja-patched.. not a word from devs in the thread either. just to say a couple words will make the playerbase feel like they're being heard and not ignored by their GMs

This^

[feste]

Those of you who complain about all of the free gaming you receive should be ashamed of yourselves.

seriously. i could wake up one day have my necro turned into a pink unicorn that shoots daisies out of his nose and id have to say fuck it the price would still be right.

[Atmas]

I'm really amazed at the ungracious attitude presented by some people who are being provided a free nostalgic experience at a great time investment cost.

I'm also really surprised by the questions posed by some people. If you are at a fast food place, order a meal and then someone walks up and asks for a water cup, would you berate the person working the cash register if that person got their water cup before you got your meal? All operations don't and shouldn't cease to function because one bug hasn't been resolved.

Bugs are not always easy to pin point or even necessarily quick to resolve when identified. It would be pretty horrid if all other work was suspended every time a bug was observed.

Edit: Instead of a fast food resturant a better setting would be someones house and instead of an employee it would be the host. Or someone who you were not giving money too but was still providing you something free.

[Tumdumm]

I'm also really surprised by the questions posed by some people. If you are at a fast food place, order a meal and then someone walks up and asks for a water cup, would you berate the person working the cash register if that person got their water cup before you got your meal? All operations don't and shouldn't cease to function because one bug hasn't been resolved.


i worked at arbys when i was 16-18. some people do that! its crazy, but they really do... usually really old really angry people

[Dantes]

GM interaction? What's that? Hell I think I may have /petitioned maybe once in the entire YEAR I have played on P99. With all other problems I had, I solved them myself. Boats don't work? Get a port. Camp dispute? Settle it like a responsible adult, without involving a GM. Maybe they are snippy because they get so annoyed with all the petitions they get from grown adults acting like 5 year olds.

Shit I don't even expect a rez if I die in a server crash, yet GMs have done that before. I consider that a BONUS. They certainly didn't do that on live. Hardly anybody participated in beta for kunark, nobody gives a shit, they just want to keep doing their own thing. Sometimes the only reasonable way to test a change with quick results is to throw it up. If it doesn't work, those self-serving assholes who won't login to the beta server will certainly notice the change and bitch about it. Problem solved.

GMs/Devs aren't your bitches. They volunteer their time for free. Nobody's perfect, but I certainly don't mind a FREE server that is 100% better than anything Verant/Sony had to offer back in the day.

[mwatt]

Nice post Kanras. You re-iterate your dedication to establishing a true Classic environment - warts and all - but you also let us know that you are not unmindful that the process of doing so can be painful for everyone. Some of that pain can be taken away, and you promise to try and do that. I don't think we could ask for more. In any event, a velvet glove feels better than an iron fist. Thank you for being discerning enough and reasonable enough to know when it makes sense to employ tact and explanation.

It is also nice to hear that the swinging of the nerf hammer is nearly done - we've had to swallow a lot of change in the past few patches. It's all been for the right reasons, but it still hurts when it happens. Most of us really DO want the classic experience. The problem we have had in accepting some of these changes is that most of us played EQ past the classic era, when some of these "nerfs" got repealed. True SOE ruined their own lands as time went on, but they DID make a few adjustments that made sense. We remember gameplay in that light, so these nerfs hurt just as bad the second time around. Pity, but it cannot be helped.

Of course the stated end game is Velious and I think most of us agree that stopping there is the best shot at keeping the game from becoming something we don't wanna play. When we get there, and have been there for a while, maybe one of the things that can eventually be done is to look at putting in some of the post-Velious de-nerfs (e.g. 2/3 dot damage when moving). I dunno, just a thought. It would help to know that we aren't forever stuck with some of these things, just because we are stopping at Velious content.

[Juugox2]

What it takes you 25 minutes per yellow instead of 15?

lol seriously

[stormlord]

I really have ot hand it to people who report on things and work on things behind hte scenes. I'm much too lazy to do any of that and not want to be bothered by it. I see problems here and there, maybe I should have reported. If it were on my shoulders, this whole legacy would have ended beore it started. I have great respect for the people here.

[Mcbard]

Oops. I misunderstood what you were saying. Given infinite time to develop them, I would like to see virtually all of the same mistakes made.

Somebody give this man a medal!

Thanks for all of your work keeping the dream alive Kanras/all the other guides/devs and players who are loving it just as much as I am. I wouldn't have it any other way! :D

[Amelinda]

Somebody give this man a medal!

Thanks for all of your work keeping the dream alive Kanras/all the other guides/devs and players who are loving it just as much as I am. I wouldn't have it any other way! :D

I second this

also

lol at the tags.:D

[mwatt]

lol, knuckle=einhorn jerked a chuckle out of me

[Orzenn]

If there were a switch to flip, it would have been done Oct. 2009. You're severely underestimating the time it takes (mostly in research) a handful of people to reverse engineer all of these formulas.



I spent an hour trying to recreate the erudin shuttle bug on my test server about 30 minutes after the post first went up. The shuttle worked consistently. I tried a blind fix in this patch for what I thought might have been causing the problem. It apparently didn't work. Unless the bug gets fixed, there's no point in me addressing it. The reality is still that you'll have to petition or swim out to the boat yourself in order to get to Qeynos.

Thank you very much, Kanras :D

I do understand your plight; once wrote a database application that the client wanted all the old records to import into -- the old database was entirely proprietary. It took 8 months to write the application; 7 of those months were used to decipher the old format, lol.

My app was small, a couple thousand lines (perhaps less), so believe me when I say I understand (how many lines are you guys dealing with? A few hundred thousand? A million? More?)

I only posted as much as a did in the original threads concerning this issue because I got the impression that our description of the problem was misunderstood.

I already love you guys for bringing back the world that got me into MMOs and you will always have my respect.

Again, thanks for letting us know that you are trying on this. :D

[Sethius]

Oops. I misunderstood what you were saying. Given infinite time to develop them, I would like to see virtually all of the same mistakes made.

Repeating the mistakes of classic EQ is the only way to really experience classic EQ again, and if I am not mistaken, that is the goal of this server. I applaud your devotion to this mantra, and can only hope all of the GM's and Dev's continue to do the marvelous job that they have been doing.

On a side note, I play a mage as my main right now, and the pet nerfs are very welcome. Mages were so OP before and it truly was not classic at all, and completely unfair. I don't even care if the nerf was too hard or not (although if they were I'm sure you guys will sort that out), because imo anything that makes people group more in EQ is a good thing.