most underpowered class in game?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's Mage as most underpowered overall. They level quickly to become CoTH bots.

[Zeboim]

This is the problem with eternal late era Velious, gear inflation warps class balance to where people can actually consider Mage to suck.

[Jimjam]

It's Mage as most underpowered overall. They level quickly to become CoTH bots.

Saying they level fast and don’t need their max level to fulfil their raid roll doesn’t make mages sound underpowered to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Saying they level fast and don’t need their max level to fulfil their raid roll doesn’t make mages sound underpowered to me.

It's underpowered because if you aren't a raider you run out of things to do at high levels:) Statistically most people on the server aren't hardcore raiders or level guild bots. Also remember CoTH bots don't use 95% of their spell kit, including their pets, DD, and DS.

[Zuranthium]

It's underpowered because if you aren't a raider you run out of things to do at high levels:)

You don't run out of things do on Mage as compared to the majority of other classes. They can solo well. They contribute plenty to groups. It's way better to be a Mage outside of raids than a Wizard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't run out of things do on Mage as compared to the majority of other classes. They can solo well. They contribute plenty to groups. It's way better to be a Mage outside of raids than a Wizard.

Not really. Without CC and Utility they are basically just stuck in lower level zones killing easier stuff. Most classes can do that honestly. Maybe not as fast, but you aren't doing any big camps with a Mage that you couldn't do with another class.

[Castle2.0]

Sorry not sorry for skimming your excessive posts. There are 3 expansions and 60 levels.

So... you're wrong because you're trying to answer a broad question with no answer unless you define it more clearly.

"XYZ Class sucks at 60 in Velious so they are the worst"

Nah, they are the worst (maybe) at 60 in Velious at a particular time.

Mages dominate level 4 in any era. Get rekt, pontificating nerds.

[Tethler]

I think the fact that the community can’t agree is pretty strong evidence that no class is underpowered when you look at the whole scope of the game that Norrath has to offer.

There are clearly underpowered classes when you focus on any single aspect … but not when you look at the sum total.

This seems like the most reasonable answer in this entire thread

[Zuranthium]

Not really. Without CC and Utility they are basically just stuck in lower level zones killing easier stuff. Most classes can do that honestly. Maybe not as fast, but you aren't doing any big camps with a Mage that you couldn't do with another class.

This is totally wrong. There are many high level camps a Mage can do with chain petting that other classes can't, especially melee without great gear.

[Jimjam]

Mage is underpowered because it can xp quickly to a capable raid level to fulfil several vital roles and because it ploughs trash better than several classes bit can’t solo raid mobs like a shaman.

[Danth]

This is totally wrong. There are many high level camps a Mage can do with chain petting that other classes can't, especially melee without great gear.

What camps? I asked before but I think it got lost in the chaff. I ask because I seldom see level 60 magicians online so I don't know what they're doing. I certainly don't often see them in the areas I'm usually in.

Danth

[PatChapp]

This is totally wrong. There are many high level camps a Mage can do with chain petting that other classes can't, especially melee without great gear.

Yeah please list these, especially with the current agro mechanics chain petting isn't too useful unless you have room to kite.
You can use the new agro mechanics to your advantage though,if you have an epic you can pet kite ice burrowers,though whether it's worth it is questionable.

[eqravenprince]

Mages dominate level 4 in any era. Get rekt, pontificating nerds.

LMAO!

[eqravenprince]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Loraen's_Class_Selection_Guide

Link above basically sums up most underpowered for any given situation. /thread

[Troxx]

Would love to see the raid scene on p99 without coth

Lol @ most underpowered class

You guys be smokin’ crack man

[PatChapp]

There's no encounter that requires coth,the races would just change. More trash clearing

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Would love to see the raid scene on p99 without coth

Lol @ most underpowered class

You guys be smokin’ crack man

We aren't discussing most underpowered in raiding. The discussion is most underpowered overall. Nobody has claimed Mages are underpowered in raids.

There's no encounter that requires coth,the races would just change. More trash clearing

Precisely.

What camps? I asked before but I think it got lost in the chaff. I ask because I seldom see level 60 magicians online so I don't know what they're doing. I certainly don't often see them in the areas I'm usually in.

Danth

I want to know this too. It has yet to be answered.

Yeah please list these, especially with the current agro mechanics chain petting isn't too useful unless you have room to kite.
You can use the new agro mechanics to your advantage though,if you have an epic you can pet kite ice burrowers,though whether it's worth it is questionable.

Shamans can do this too, but it takes forever hehe. Even with the increased DPS of a Mage pet it would be pretty slow. Probably not worth it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fsvt1xfuqY

[Jimjam]

So as well as levelling too quickly and not needing to bother with 60 to satisfy its raid roles, we are now arguing magicians are underpowered because they can solo level 61 mobs (but slowly)?

Seriously?!

[Troxx]

Jimjam haven’t you learned yet not to bother with logic?

This is hilarious

[Crede]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Loraen's_Class_Selection_Guide

Link above basically sums up most underpowered for any given situation. /thread

Yea, I've referenced that guide a few times in this thread. He accounts for tons of different scenarios/stats which is useful in these discussions. Mage was his #5 overall. Solid class across the board, despite their lack of utility.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea, I've referenced that guide a few times in this thread. He accounts for tons of different scenarios/stats which is useful in these discussions. Mage was his #5 overall. Solid class across the board, despite their lack of utility.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that guide. It rates SK's higher than Warriors, and rates Paladins at the bottom. It's either outdated or not that accurate. It also rates Paladins lower in raids than SK's, which is off for sure.

So as well as levelling too quickly and not needing to bother with 60 to satisfy its raid roles, we are now arguing magicians are underpowered because they can solo level 61 mobs (but slowly)?

Seriously?!

No. You simply are thinking too much into raiding. The discussion isn't "which class is the most underpowered in raiding", it is which class is most underpowered overall.

Mages can level quickly, but so can a lot of classes. That isn't anything super special. They just run out of things to do after they level besides becoming CoTH bots.

Please show us some awesome level 60 Mage soloing. I can't even find videos online.

[loramin]

Yeah please list these, especially with the current agro mechanics chain petting isn't too useful unless you have room to kite.
You can use the new agro mechanics to your advantage though,if you have an epic you can pet kite ice burrowers,though whether it's worth it is questionable.

I'm still waiting to hear which camps also: the best I can do with my mage is geonids :(

But I will say the P99 agro mechanic does not require room to kite in order to chain. You can just use the earth pet, wait until it's down to 5-10% life (depending on the mob; start sooner for harder mobs), then start summoning a new pet.

When your new pet is about to be summoned, you use /pet get lost to get rid of the old pet, just before your new pet comes out. It works great as long as you time it well, and even if you don't time it well the root from the earth pet will usually give you the few seconds you need to finish casting.

It's only if you time it badly AND the root doesn't go off AND your resummon gets interrupted by the mob that you need to kite (or use a root net or something). If you're playing well that should be a pretty rare occurrence.

[PatChapp]

We aren't discussing most underpowered in raiding. The discussion is most underpowered overall. Nobody has claimed Mages are underpowered in raids.



Precisely.



I want to know this too. It has yet to be answered.



Shamans can do this too, but it takes forever hehe. Even with the increased DPS of a Mage pet it would be pretty slow. Probably not worth it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fsvt1xfuqY
A guildie of mine does it,takes about 20 mins and all of her mana,even using 2epic pets to get started. Looks fun at least

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A guildie of mine does it,takes about 20 mins and all of her mana,even using 2epic pets to get started. Looks fun at least

Not a bad time at all. Does she have metrics on using non-epic pets? Sadly most Mages don't have their Epics.

[PatChapp]

I'm still waiting to hear which camps also: the best I can do with my mage is geonids :(

But I will say the P99 agro mechanic does not require room to kite in order to chain. You can just use the earth pet, wait until it's down to 5-10% life (depending on the mob; start sooner for harder mobs), then start summoning a new pet.

When your new pet is about to be summoned, you use /pet get lost to get rid of the old pet, just before your new pet comes out. It works great as long as you time it well, and even if you don't time it well the root from the earth pet will usually give you the few seconds you need to finish casting.

It's only if you time it badly AND the root doesn't go off AND your resummon gets interrupted by the mob that you need to kite (or use a root net or something). If you're playing well that should be a pretty rare occurrence.
Ofcourse it's doable,just reliant on the earth root while the new pet builds agro. Before the mechanics were changed it was possible with any of the pets and very low risk.
Geos are a good mage camp, not much downtime if you get good rng.

[PatChapp]

Not a bad time at all. Does she have metrics on using non-epic pets? Sadly most Mages don't have their Epics.

I tried it without an epic and I didn't have enough mana,burrower was down to 40% if I recall


https://youtu.be/-RZevG64Kj8 not my video ofc

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I tried it without an epic and I didn't have enough mana,burrower was down to 40% if I recall

Makes sense. Those Burrowers have a ton of HP.

[Fammaden]

Yeah if a qualifier is "has mage epic" that leaves out a vast majority of anyone who's ever going to roll the class.

[Jimjam]

I wouldn't put too much stock in that guide. It rates SK's higher than Warriors, and rates Paladins at the bottom. It's either outdated or not that accurate. It also rates Paladins lower in raids than SK's, which is off for sure.



No. You simply are thinking too much into raiding. The discussion isn't "which class is the most underpowered in raiding", it is which class is most underpowered overall.

Mages can level quickly, but so can a lot of classes. That isn't anything super special. They just run out of things to do after they level besides becoming CoTH bots.

Please show us some awesome level 60 Mage soloing. I can't even find videos online.

I’m not focused on raiding. I think I take a balanced view. Speed of xp solo/grouped. Raid role. Can handle moderately tough mobs solo. Is excellent duo or trio.

You’re focusing entirely on level 60 shaman torpor God tier soloing to exclusion of all else. It’s such a high standard which 75% of the classes don’t come close to, let alone meet! It’s no argument against magicians in particular.

[eqravenprince]

Yea, I've referenced that guide a few times in this thread. He accounts for tons of different scenarios/stats which is useful in these discussions. Mage was his #5 overall. Solid class across the board, despite their lack of utility.

Yes, sorry about that as I didn't read entire thread, it's too much. I don't know why raid is even factored into underpowered discussion in this thread. If you are in a guild you get invited to the raid no matter how useless your class is, so raid power is irrelevant in my book. Group and Solo is all that should matter in this discussion. If you add up those 2, then it puts Rogue at the bottom as it should be, then followed by Wizard. Those two are my bottom two underpowered classes. Rogue needs something to allow them to solo which would fix them. Wizard needs something to make them more viable in group which would fix them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m not focused on raiding. I think I take a balanced view. Speed of xp solo/grouped. Raid role. Can handle moderately tough mobs solo. Is excellent duo or trio.

You’re focusing entirely on level 60 shaman torpor God tier soloing to exclusion of all else. It’s such a high standard which 75% of the classes don’t come close to, let alone meet! It’s no argument against magicians in particular.

I am not. I am weighing them mostly in the solo/group category since the average player does not heavily raid, and therefore are probably not leveling their character to become a CoTH bot.

Mage's do not do well at high levels due to lack of Utility and CC. You are basically making the assumption a Mage is going to level their character to high 50s and then quit. I am taking into account people who play their level 60 characters after they level them.

Leveling fast means nothing when you can't do much by the time you hit 55 other than CoTHing and farming lower level mobs. Bards would be better at that anyway via swarming.

Mages just don't offer anything special outside of CoTH. They fill the DPS role in a group, which other classes can fill fine. Their lack of CC and Utility prevents them from doing anything interesting solo-wise at high levels.

They are basically the only class I can think of that gets worse as they level, because the lack of CC and Utility just hurts them more and more each level.

[PatChapp]

Yeah if a qualifier is "has mage epic" that leaves out a vast majority of anyone who's ever going to roll the class.

My mage is very trash geared. I think 180int, some empty slots currently. Standard lvl 60 mage stuff.
I think would be possible with actual gear, but epic adds another 0cost pet so makes a big difference.

[Danth]

I wouldn't put too much stock in that guide... It's either outdated or not that accurate.

That guide's outdated. It was written when P1999 was in Kunark. Hence for example everyone could get soulfires and Divine Strength did not yet exist, de-valuing those current-day Paladin advantages. That being said, for as old as that guide is, on balance it's held up pretty well and is still useful provided the reader understands its age and limitations.

-------------------------------------

I think calling mages the bottom is a bit of a "hot take." It's too strong for me really to agree with that claim. It's always a strong leveling character and is a very strong character overall when there's a level 50 cap in place. It's no worse than average range for normal grouping, strong for high-end farm groups, and somewhere in the middle for raiding. For level 60 solo it's also probably someplace in the middle. The only place it's clearly bad is high-level duo'ing. On the other hand, in the level 60 environment it doesn't really shine anyplace, either, so it's often over-shadowed. Overall I call it someplace in the middle, maybe low end of average. There are numerous characters in this game I'd rate similarly.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That guide's outdated. It was written when P1999 was in Kunark. Hence for example everyone could get soulfires and Divine Strength did not yet exist, de-valuing those current-day Paladin advantages. That being said, for as old as that guide is, on balance it's held up pretty well and is still useful provided the reader understands its age and limitations.

-------------------------------------

I think calling mages the bottom is a bit of a "hot take." It's too strong for me really to agree with that claim. It's always a strong leveling character and is a very strong character overall when there's a level 50 cap in place. It's no worse than average range for normal grouping, strong for high-end farm groups, and somewhere in the middle for raiding. For level 60 solo it's also probably someplace in the middle. The only place it's clearly bad is high-level duo'ing. On the other hand, in the level 60 environment it doesn't really shine anyplace, either, so it's often over-shadowed. Overall I call it someplace in the middle, maybe low end of average. There are numerous characters in this game I'd rate similarly.

Danth

I don't think it's a hot take. The easiest way to tell is by looking at what players actually do with their characters. I rarely (if ever) see level 60 Mages out in the wild doing random stuff. I only see Mages in raids to be honest. If the class was so great, why do people stop playing them at high levels, with the exception of raiding?

I see more Paladins/Shadowknights/Rangers in the wild, even though they are played less than Mages I believe metric-wise.

[Danth]

I don't think it's a hot take. .

Good. Threads would get boring fast if everyone agreed all the time. Respectful disagreement largely fuels internet discussions like this one.

That being said, I think the magician has a special concern: Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

Danth

[Jimjam]

All classes lose relative power as they level. A level 1 monk can one round an even con mob while naked. A 60 monk can’t do that. The 60 monk isn’t underpowered compared to the level 1 cos it can beat up the same level 1 mob even more easily!

Similarly, I don’t think you can hold up a 60 mage to a 55 mage and say the 60 mage is underpowered in comparison. The 60 mage can do everything a 55 can do, but with more wriggle room. Like the 60 mag can’t secure xp on 37-39 mobs and thats the difference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Good. Threads would get boring fast if everyone agreed all the time. Respectful disagreement largely fuels internet discussions like this one.

That being said, I think the magician has a special concern: Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

Danth

I agree, and this is one of the reasons why Mages are the most underpowered. If they were more powerful, less people would become CoTH bots (unless guilds heavily increased the benefits from doing so).

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

[Jimjam]

Are there any magician seb crypt solo videos? I’d like to see one. Otherwise maybe paladin is higher on the list after all.

[Jimjam]

I agree, and this is one of the reasons why Mages are the most underpowered. If they were more powerful, less people would become CoTH bots (unless guilds heavily increased the benefits from doing so).

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

They need group coth at 60 to stop them peaking too early. Something like that I could agree with.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All classes lose relative power as they level. A level 1 monk can one round an even con mob while naked. A 60 monk can’t do that. The 60 monk isn’t underpowered compared to the level 1 cos it can beat up the same level 1 mob even more easily!

Similarly, I don’t think you can hold up a 60 mage to a 55 mage and say the 60 mage is underpowered in comparison. The 60 mage can do everything a 55 can do, but with more wriggle room. Like the 60 mag can’t secure xp on 37-39 mobs and thats the difference.

Not true at all. Shamans are their most powerful at level 60 with Torpor. Same with Enchanters at level 60 with Dictate.

Monks are more powerful at level 60 than earlier levels, and can improve that via gear. Every class can kill well at low levels, so I am not sure why you are bringing that up.

The problem with Mages is their lack of CC and Utility basically just make them a DPS class similar to a Monk. The difference being that they cannot improve their pets via gear, so they have no room for improvement.

[Danth]

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

You would since the enchanter is clearly overpowered. In the magician's case I regard it as a basically average character, that has a strong built-in de-motivator to actually use the thing. If anything it causes the magician to get an asterisk in this type of ranking. Most of the mages I've known who've continued using their characters up to and beyond 60 did not yet have that particular spell. Some of them followed the usual trend of largely retiring the character from active use once they got it. Horrible spell!

--------------------

With respect to levels, while characters gain power with levels, their *relative* power to each other does very clearly change throughout the level spread. It's the relative power we care about in this type of discussion.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

With respect to levels, while characters gain power with levels, their *relative* power to each other does very clearly change throughout the level spread. It's the relative power we care about in this type of discussion.

I agree. Mages unfortunately have a normal to above average "relative power" throughout their life, but it gets worse when they get into the higher levels due to lack of CC.

Classes like Rogues have a normal to above average "relative power" when grouping, and that should be considered more than soloing for Rogues specifically because most people know that Rogues are a grouping class. The difference is their "relative power" continues to increase as they level, and as they acquire more gear. They also don't have to worry about Pet AI problems when DPSing, as an example.

[loramin]

Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

I think the heart of why Mage's suck isn't CotH, it's that if you're not especially good at anything, you're good at nothing.

Druids actually have the same core issue: they can't do anything better than others. Solo high-level mobs? Shaman or Enchanter are better. Heal (in groups or on raids)? Clerics or Shaman do it better. Track? Rangers. Heck, even when it comes to SoW, Shaman get it before Druids!

Both Mage and Druids have things raids need (Coth/Mod Rods/Rip Sticks and PotG/Circles), so there's a reason to still play them in raids. But outside of raids, they have nothing they do best, so they wind up farming plat/gear for alts that can do something better, and then being retired.

So, I don't think CotH is to blame, it's the mediocrity of the class (well, of both classes, but Druids are less mediocre). But at the same time, it's hard to argue that a class which can do things well (but not best) is bad ... they're just boring.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think the heart of why Mage's suck isn't CotH, it's that if you're not especially good at anything, you're good at nothing.

Druids actually have the same core issue: they can't do anything better than others. Solo high-level mobs? Shaman or Enchanter are better. Heal (in groups or on raids)? Clerics or Shaman do it better. Track? Rangers. Heck, even when it comes to SoW, Shaman get it before Druids!

Both Mage and Druids have things raids need (Coth/Mod Rods/Rip Sticks and PotG/Circles), so there's a reason to still play them in raids. But outside of raids, they have nothing they do best, so they wind up farming plat/gear for alts that can do something better, and then being retired.

So, I don't think CotH is to blame, it's the mediocrity of the class (well, of both classes, but Druids are less mediocre). But at the same time, it's hard to argue that a class which can do things well (but not best) is bad ... they're just boring.

Agreed. All of the best classes have specialization. Unfortunately the specialization of a Mage is at it's best when little is known about the game (summoned items). On P99 where people know everything about the game, a lot of what makes a Mage great gets lessened quite a bit. That is why other classes like Rogues end up getting boosted, because people know what is best for the P99 metas.

As I keep saying, "underpowered" does not mean bad. Mages are not bad at all.

[Crede]

I agree. Mages unfortunately have a normal to above average "relative power" throughout their life, but it gets worse when they get into the higher levels due to lack of CC.

Classes like Rogues have a normal to above average "relative power" when grouping, and that should be considered more than soloing for Rogues specifically because most people know that Rogues are a grouping class. The difference is their "relative power" continues to increase as they level, and as they acquire more gear. They also don't have to worry about Pet AI problems when DPSing, as an example.

Mages are better soloers than rogues.
Mages are better in duos/trios than rogues since their pet can act as a tank and duo with other pet classes.
They're pretty much a wash in full xp groups after the rogue acquires some respective weapons.
They're both necessary in the p99 raid scene.

Mage clear winner here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mages are better soloers than rogues.
Mages are better in duos/trios than rogues since their pet can act as a tank and duo with other pet classes.
They're pretty much a wash in full xp groups after the rogue acquires some respective weapons.
They're both necessary in the p99 raid scene.

Mage clear winner here.

Except you can't put Rogues and Mages together in terms of how much they solo. People make Rogues knowing they can't solo well. Grouping gets rated more than soloing for Rogues.

And no, Mages aren't really that much better in duos/trios. Ideally you wouldn't put a mage in a duo/trio at all, there are much stronger combos. Same with Rogues.

Rogues are played much more at 60 than Mages too.

[Crede]

Except you can't put Rogues and Mages together in terms of how much they solo. People make Rogues knowing they can't solo well. Grouping gets rated more than soloing for Rogues.

And no, Mages aren't really that much better in duos/trios. Ideally you wouldn't put a mage in a duo/trio at all, there are much stronger combos. Same with Rogues.

Rogues are played much more at 60 than Mages too.

Yes, you can put them together. That's your own made up criteria to weigh rogues differently. This isn't "let's focus on their strengths and what they were intended for". Its overall power, period.

Stop bringing other classes into the mix. Mages are much better duoers/trios too where a competent healer/tank isn't always present, they just mesh better with more classes.

Sure, rogues scale better in the raid scene at 60. But as you've pointed out, raiding is casual, and it's only a part of the game, so sorry, rogues are much more underpowered, doesn't make em bad though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes, you can put them together. That's your own made up criteria to weigh rogues differently. This isn't "let's focus on their strengths and what they were intended for". Its overall power, period.

Stop bringing other classes into the mix. Mages are much better duoers/trios too where a competent healer/tank isn't always present, they just mesh better with more classes.

Sure, rogues scale better in the raid scene at 60. But as you've pointed out, raiding is casual, and it's only a part of the game, so sorry, rogues are much more underpowered, doesn't make em bad though.

The strengths of a class and what they are intended for matters. Saying a Rogue sucks because they can't solo is silly, because you see more Rogues than Mages. Obviously there is something more important than just soloing in the case of a Rogue, or you wouldn't see this trend.

Rogues can scale better than Mages at 60 outside of the raid scene. You can still get great items without heavy raiding, and you don't have to worry about AI issues when it comes to Mage pets.

The problem is Mages don't have anything going for them at higher levels other than CoTH. If you aren't planning on CoTH botting, basically every other class will give you the same options or more at 60 outside of raiding.

If you want to group, Rogues and Mages basically have the same shot of getting in, because duos/trios generally don't pick dedicated DPS classes anyway. It's better to pick classes that can fill multiple roles. And in a full group both Rogues and Mages DPS just fine.

[Crede]

The strengths of a class and what they are intended for matters. Saying a Rogue sucks because they can't solo is silly, because you see more Rogues than Mages. Obviously there is something more important than just soloing in the case of a Rogue, or you wouldn't see this trend.

Rogues can scale better than Mages at 60 outside of the raid scene. You can still get great items without heavy raiding, and you don't have to worry about AI issues when it comes to Mage pets.

The problem is Mages don't have anything going for them at higher levels other than CoTH. If you aren't planning on CoTH botting, basically every other class will give you the same options or more at 60 outside of raiding.

If you want to group, Rogues and Mages basically have the same shot of getting in, because duos/trios generally don't pick dedicated DPS classes anyway. It's better to pick classes that can fill multiple roles. And in a full group both Rogues and Mages DPS just fine.

I didn't say rogues suck. I said they're underpowered, that's not bad, remember? ;).

Rogue's lack of soloing doesn't make them suck, but it does lower their overall rating. I'd treat clerics no differently. They definitely don't suck, but it does lower their overall power rating.

Rogues dont really get anything great outside of raiding that makes them any better. They need to get epic to keep up with mage dps(pet, nukes, DS). But mage can get a water staff for their final 2 water pets, which is prob more effective than anything else a rogue can get outside raids.

Mages are great pp farmers, droga for instance. Every other class cannot give you this benefit. Wizards will go oom from like 1 mediocre mob.

Sounds like you don't duo/trio much. And why are you bringing in other classes again? Focus here on mage vs rogue. Mage pet can fit multiple roles in a duo/trio, not to mention can be resummoned at will when sufficient healing is not present. It will take most of a druids mana to heal a rogue whereas a mage can just resummon a monster pet for free basically.

Again, rogues aren't bad, just more underpowered than mages.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn't say rogues suck. I said they're underpowered, that's not bad, remember? ;).

Rogue's lack of soloing doesn't make them suck, but it does lower their overall rating. I'd treat clerics no differently. They definitely don't suck, but it does lower their overall power rating.

Rogues dont really get anything great outside of raiding that makes them any better. They need to get epic to keep up with mage dps(pet, nukes, DS). But mage can get a water staff for their final 2 water pets, which is prob more effective than anything else a rogue can get outside raids.

Mages are great pp farmers, droga for instance. Every other class cannot give you this benefit. Wizards will go oom from like 1 mediocre mob.

Sounds like you don't duo/trio much. And why are you bringing in other classes again? Focus here on mage vs rogue. Mage pet can fit multiple roles in a duo/trio, not to mention can be resummoned at will when sufficient healing is not present. It will take most of a druids mana to heal a rogue whereas a mage can just resummon a monster pet for free basically.

Again, rogues aren't bad, just more underpowered than mages.

Unless you really like killing in Droga, being efficient at it is not a huge plus. There are plenty of other ways to make PP, and every class can solo in Droga at 60 if they want to self-farm skins/salts and whatnot.

I am bringing in other classes because the discussion is "most underpowered class overall", so that includes all classes.

The problem here is you are basically saying in poorly formed duo/trio groups Mages can do well. I am not sure why that is a huge plus, since poorly formed groups aren't going to do great anyway, whether you have a Mage or not. Plenty of other classes can do just fine in suboptimal groups too, so it doesn't make a Mage special.

To your point about Mage pets being able to tank, Rogues could tank as well if you had a group with a slower, since we are talking about weird group comps. They have much better defense skills than a Shaman, who can face tank just fine with slow. They also have two defensive discs, Counterattack Discipline and Nimble Discipline.

[eqravenprince]

Saying a Rogue sucks because they can't solo is silly


Rogue is a dependent. Sure it can be fun to be a dependent, no real responsibilities, but it comes at the price of no freedom. I don't think it's silly, just depends on how much you value freedom.

[Zeboim]

Rogue is the best DoT a healer can cast.

[Crede]

Unless you really like killing in Droga, being efficient at it is not a huge plus. There are plenty of other ways to make PP, and every class can solo in Droga at 60 if they want to self-farm skins/salts and whatnot.

I am bringing in other classes because the discussion is "most underpowered class overall", so that includes all classes.

The problem here is you are basically saying in poorly formed duo/trio groups Mages can do well. I am not sure why that is a huge plus, since poorly formed groups aren't going to do great anyway, whether you have a Mage or not. Plenty of other classes can do just fine in suboptimal groups too, so it doesn't make a Mage special.

To your point about Mage pets being able to tank, Rogues could tank as well if you had a group with a slower, since we are talking about weird group comps. They have much better defense skills than a Shaman, who can face tank just fine with slow. They also have two defensive discs, Counterattack Discipline and Nimble Discipline.

Efficiency is a huge plus. We all have limited time, why would we waste it? lol. 99.9% of people take the most efficient path in this game. So yes, being able to farm droga efficiently is a big deal. Just because a wizard can kill a few mobs then go oom, it will still be a miserable experience and you'll prob quit after 10-15 min.

You're bringing in other more superior classes to make mages look weaker to support your claims. Nobody is saying mages are the most powerful class.

I didn't say anything about mages specifically doing well in poorly formed duos, you are making things up again :) Any composition a rogue shines in, so will a mage. But due to mage versatility, they can form more powerful duos/trios with different classes. The same cannot be said about a rogue.

Rogues can tank with a slower, but why would you want them to? They will lose a lot of dps/power not being able to consistently backstab, whereas a mage can just keep a beastly earth pet going with DS the whole time & resummon as needed, while the slower can focus on slows & dps and not have to worry about keeping the rogue alive. Rogue discs are nice, but 9 seconds for an hour Reuse time and 12 seconds for a 30 min Reuse time are not a reliable source of power/damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Rogue is a dependent. Sure it can be fun to be a dependent, no real responsibilities, but it comes at the price of no freedom. I don't think it's silly, just depends on how much you value freedom.

I agree, but if you value soloing freedom other classes are just as good or better:) Again, that's the issue, is Mages aren't special in this regard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Efficiency is a huge plus. We all have limited time, why would we waste it? lol. 99.9% of people take the most efficient path in this game. So yes, being able to farm droga efficiently is a big deal. Just because a wizard can kill a few mobs then go oom, it will still be a miserable experience and you'll prob quit after 10-15 min.

You're bringing in other more superior classes to make mages look weaker to support your claims. Nobody is saying mages are the most powerful class.

I didn't say anything about mages specifically doing well in poorly formed duos, you are making things up again :) But due to their versatility, they can form more powerful duos/trios with different classes. The same cannot be said about a rogue.

Rogues can tank with a slower, but why would you want them to? They will lose a lot of dps/power not being able to consistently backstab, whereas a mage can just keep a beastly earth pet going with DS the whole time & resummon as needed, while the slower can focus on slows & dps and not have to worry about keeping the rogue alive. Rogue discs are nice, but 9 seconds for an hour Reuse time and 12 seconds for a 30 min Reuse time are not a reliable source of power/damage.

With regards to Rogues tanking, that's my point. Just because they can, doesn't mean you want them to, or they are ideal. A Mage pet can tank, but if it's behind/to the side of the mob it will DPS more than tanking it. And you get backstab if you have a water pet. A Mage is a DPS class at the end of the day, so you want them to DPS, not tank. Most groups don't need to have Mage Pets as the main tank, similar to how most groups don't need Rogues as the main tank.

Efficiency is important, but again you are assuming all players want to maximize efficiency in Droga. Having more options is also efficient, as money camps are not always open when you are on.

You were talking about suboptimal duos. Any duo with a Mage is suboptimal, due to how much utility you lose by bringing a pure DPS class to a duo. I am not saying you can't succeed with a Mage duo. You can succeed with any duo, including two rogues. Give them embalming daggers for infinite bandages and swap who tanks. But that doesn't mean it is an optimal duo, if efficiency is a huge concern for you.

[Crede]

With regards to Rogues tanking, that's my point. Just because they can, doesn't mean you want them to, or they are ideal. A Mage pet can tank, but if it's behind/to the side of the mob it will DPS more than tanking it. And you get backstab if you have a water pet. A Mage is a DPS class at the end of the day, so you want them to DPS, not tank. Most groups don't need to have Mage Pets as the main tank, similar to how most groups don't need Rogues as the main tank.

Efficiency is important, but again you are assuming all players want to maximize efficiency in Droga. Having more options is also efficient, as money camps are not always open when you are on.

You were talking about suboptimal duos. Any duo with a Mage is suboptimal, due to how much utility you lose by bringing a pure DPS class to a duo. I am not saying you can't succeed with a Mage duo. You can succeed with any duo, including two rogues. Give them embalming daggers for infinite bandages and swap who tanks. But that doesn't mean it is an optimal duo, if efficiency is a huge concern for you.

Your first paragraph really only applies to optimized full groups. I already considered mages/rogues pretty much a wash there as at that point they both should be focusing on dps. But there are plenty of other areas of the game, as I already mentioned soloing/duoing/trioing, which mages are simply better at that overall than rogues are. That's really not debatable, you're just choosing to weigh those areas less, which gets away from the point of "overall" power.

Having more options also doesn't mean efficiency, depending on where you're set up and how much time it took to do that, if you have to leave and go somewhere else, you're probably better off just switching chars and finding efficiency elsewhere, and many people can and will do.

Any mage with a duo is not suboptimal, the other class can handle the efficiency if the combination is right. Mage/enchanter for example. They can kill for hours with pretty much no breaks, whereas a rogue will probably be dead in a few minutes trying to bandage up with horrendous embalmer knives, lol. And two rogues is a really really bad comparison, as 2 mages is a far more powerful duo, so you're not making any sense there.

Mage really isn't just a pure dps class when you factor in how much utility you get with powerful pets and the ability to resummon one at will. Rogues are a one trick pony, they're down there with wizards/rangers at the bottom of the totem pole.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your first paragraph really only applies to optimized full groups. I already considered mages/rogues pretty much a wash there as at that point they both should be focusing on dps. But there are plenty of other areas of the game, as I already mentioned soloing/duoing/trioing, which mages are simply better at that overall than rogues are. That's really not debatable, you're just choosing to weigh those areas less, which gets away from the point of "overall" power.

Having more options also doesn't mean efficiency, depending on where you're set up and how much time it took to do that, if you have to leave and go somewhere else, you're probably better off just switching chars and finding efficiency elsewhere, and many people can and will do.

Any mage with a duo is not suboptimal, the other class can handle the efficiency if the combination is right. Mage/enchanter for example. They can kill for hours with pretty much no breaks, whereas a rogue will probably be dead in a few minutes trying to bandage up with horrendous embalmer knives, lol. And two rogues is a really really bad comparison, as 2 mages is a far more powerful duo, so you're not making any sense there.

Mage really isn't just a pure dps class when you factor in how much utility you get with powerful pets and the ability to resummon one at will. Rogues are a one trick pony, they're down there with wizards/rangers at the bottom of the totem pole.

Mage pets only have DPS, with occasional tanking. Any class can get root proc on a weapon, so that doesn't make Earth Pets special. Mages are a two trick pony: DPS and CoTH. But since we aren't valuing raiding highly, they are mostly a one trick pony.

Yes, more options can mean more efficiency.

Yes, Mage duos are suboptimal. In a Mage/Enchanter duo, the Enchanter is doing the vast majority of the work. It is mostly the Enchanter who is killing for hours. There wouldn't be much difference in an Enchanter/Rogue duo. The problem with a 2 Mage duo is you are leveling mages, which most people don't want to do:) Just because a group of 6 Mages can kill quickly doesn't mean that many people want to be leveling Mages due to how little they do endgame. People don't run XP groups so they can figure out how to maximize DPS in an XP group. They run XP groups to gain XP on the class they want to play.

Rogues with Embalming Knife could duo OK. Just having a duo partner gives you a good spike in kill power. I never said a Rogue/Rogue duo would be better than Mage/Mage. I simply said any duo can succeed, which is true because just having a partner vastly increases what you can do vs. solo, especially on low utility classes like Rogue/Mage.

[Danth]

Well, you brought up bad duos as soon as you mentioned magician and duo in the same sentence. Debating rogue vs. magician in a duo setting is very much a P99 cripple fight. They both suck at it. Magician probably sucks a little less unless you want to get into a Kunark dungeon. Still...mage/enchanter? Friends aside, in what world is that enchanter going to want a magician over a cleric, paladin, necromancer, druid, or even shaman? Sure a rogue's worse--an outright liability--but still, it's a P99 cripple fight.

In spite of the above I also rank magician as a little higher than rogue for overall power. They both are useful in raids, they get groups more or less equally, they both suck for duo stuff, but the magician has moderate solo capability while the rogue has almost none. The fact that the rogue's helplessness when solo is so well-known nobody tries to do it does not make that limitation disappear from my overall assessment of the character any more than hybrids' notorious weakness in raids should be ignored in overall rankings. Such limitations can be ignored at an individual level--a rogue being bad for solo wouldn't matter for an individual player who only wants to group--but not in an overall sense.

Danth

[Crede]

Mage pets only have DPS, with occasional tanking. Any class can get root proc on a weapon, so that doesn't make Earth Pets special. Mages are a two trick pony: DPS and CoTH. But since we aren't valuing raiding highly, they are mostly a one trick pony.

Yes, more options can mean more efficiency.

Yes, Mage duos are suboptimal. In a Mage/Enchanter duo, the Enchanter is doing the vast majority of the work. It is mostly the Enchanter who is killing for hours. There wouldn't be much difference in an Enchanter/Rogue duo. The problem with a 2 Mage duo is you are leveling mages, which most people don't want to do:) Just because a group of 6 Mages can kill quickly doesn't mean that many people want to be leveling Mages due to how little they do endgame. People don't run XP groups so they can figure out how to maximize DPS in an XP group. They run XP groups to gain XP on the class they want to play.

Rogues with Embalming Knife could duo OK. Just having a duo partner gives you a good spike in kill power. I never said a Rogue/Rogue duo would be better than Mage/Mage. I simply said any duo can succeed, which is true because just having a partner vastly increases what you can do vs. solo, especially on low utility classes like Rogue/Mage.

LOL @ your second paragraph

You're lieing to yourself at this point, just admit defeat. I'm just a much better debater than you, you're convincing nobody but yourself :)

An enchanter/rogue duo isn't even remotely close to what an enchanter/mage can do. Not even close, the rogue will just die so fast without heals. And you have to rely on procs to snare to maybe try to pull off some fear kiting shenanigans'. The mage will be giving the enchanter malo which they will greatly appreciate, not to mention a mage will be lettin nukes fly left & right and resummonin pets with endless c2 mana.

You're resorting to end game discussions again. Ew. We already established raiding is only a portion of the game, and most people are casual and not playing endgame.

Embalmers knife duo is laughable, lol, both rogues will be dead by the time you kill 1-2 KC mobs.

Sorry, rogues just aren't that great.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, you brought up bad duos as soon as you mentioned magician and duo in the same sentence. Debating rogue vs. magician in a duo setting is very much a P99 cripple fight. They both suck at it. Magician probably sucks a little less unless you want to get into a Kunark dungeon. Still...mage/enchanter? Friends aside, in what world is that enchanter going to want a magician over a cleric, paladin, necromancer, druid, or even shaman? Sure a rogue's worse--an outright liability--but still, it's a P99 cripple fight.

In spite of the above I also rank magician as a little higher than rogue for overall power. They both are useful in raids, they get groups more or less equally, they both suck for duo stuff, but the magician has moderate solo capability while the rogue has almost none. The fact that the rogue's helplessness when solo is so well-known nobody tries to do it does not make that limitation disappear from my overall assessment of the character any more than hybrids' notorious weakness in raids should be ignored in overall rankings. Such limitations can be ignored at an individual level--a rogue being bad for solo wouldn't matter for an individual player who only wants to group--but not in an overall sense.

Danth

Lol I agree with most of this. The only thing I disagree with is trying to rate Rogues based on their solo ability, as they are one of the few classes in the game that are really meant to be group dependent. Everybody who makes a Rogue knows they can't solo, and yet more Rogues tend to be played than Mages. That is what typically makes me rate Rogues higher than Mages. Unless everybody is playing the game wrong, Rogues still seem preferable over Mages, even with their lower solo capabilities.


Sorry, rogues just aren't that great.

I am not arguing that Rogues are amazing. They are simply better than Mages when looking at "most underpowered class".


An enchanter/rogue duo isn't even remotely close to what an enchanter/mage can do. Not even close, the rogue will just die so fast without heals. And you have to rely on procs to snare to maybe try to pull off some fear kiting shenanigans'. The mage will be giving the enchanter malo which they will greatly appreciate, not to mention a mage will be lettin nukes fly left & right and resummonin pets with endless c2 mana.

You are vastly overestimating what a Mage is doing here, I am sorry. The Enchanter is doing the work, the Mage is just helping with DPS.

[Danth]

Lol I agree with most of this. The only thing I disagree with is trying to rate Rogues based on their solo ability, as they are one of the few classes in the game that are really meant to be group dependent.

In that case...do you also de-emphasize other well-known weaknesses of various characters? I mean things like Clerics and solo, hybrids and raiding, etc. I haven't read the entire thread, sort of jumped in and out, so I'm not arguing, just asking if you're consistent in your approach. If so then it's just a different type of prioritization rather than necessarily right/wrong. I get where you're coming from and for experienced players that type of ranking, ignoring what nobody's going to pick a character for, might even have more value. The overall ranking including known (to us) weaknesses would be more appropriate for newcomers to the game.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In that case...do you also de-emphasize other well-known weaknesses of various characters? I mean things like Clerics and solo, hybrids and raiding, etc. I haven't read the entire thread, sort of jumped in and out, so I'm not arguing, just asking if you're consistent in your approach. If so then it's just a different type of prioritization rather than necessarily right/wrong. I get where you're coming from and for experienced players that type of ranking, ignoring what nobody's going to pick a character for, might even have more value. The overall ranking including known (to us) weaknesses would be more appropriate for newcomers to the game.

Danth

Yes. I also rank Warriors and Clerics more on their Group/Raid capabilities than solo. We aren't playing on a server where we don't know all the capabilities of the classes. Most people playing Clerics/Warriors/Rogues know that they are playing a group/raid class, so that should have a higher weight in my estimation.

The most recent census I saw:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353063

EDIT: I did misread the census. Mages at 50 were being played more. This was during classic, which makes sense, as Mages are better in that era and Rogues are worse. But I am not looking at one specific era, as this would change the topic to "most underpowered in classic/Kunark/Velious only.

[Danth]

We aren't playing on a server where we don't know all the capabilities of the classes. .

We aren't, but I'm not going around asking anyone else what characters I should make, either! So I think of that type of question more in terms of the sort of newbie(ish) folks who'd ask. Difference of philosophy is all. If you want to rank the characters by how well they do the jobs that they're meant for it creates a different ranking than ranking them throughout all facts of the game, that much is for sure.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We aren't, but I'm not going around asking anyone else what characters I should make, either! So I think of that type of question more in terms of the sort of newbie(ish) folks who'd ask. Difference of philosophy is all. If you want to rank the characters by how well they do the jobs that they're meant for it creates a different ranking than ranking them throughout all facts of the game, that much is for sure.

Danth

Agreed, this is mostly for new players. I want new players to understand that a class like Mage isn't going to be as good at 60 as they are at 40. It saves people time because they know which classes lose power over time. If a player wants to play a Mage anyway, great! They are a fun class, and raids always need Mages.

Knowledge is power, so I just want people to know what they are getting into when picking Mage. They will probably just park it as a CoTH bot. And I am not saying Rogue is an amazing class either, it is low on the list too.

[Jimjam]

Excluding weaknesses of a class and comparing classes to whichever class is best in an area seems more like “what is least overpowered”, not “what is most underpowered”.

I think many of the points of discussion here are due to a difference in perspective on what defines ‘most underpowered’.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think many of the points of discussion here are due to a difference in perspective on what defines ‘most underpowered’.

Indeed. This discussion will have a lot of hidden assumptions from everybody involved. My approach is to look at how the average player actually ends up playing P99. So the focus is mostly on Solo/Group, with a minor emphasis in raid. I don't assume the average player is simply leveling a class and then quitting it immediately.

Warriors get more emphasis on raiding specifically because most players make Warriors for raiding.

Clerics and Rogues get more emphasis on Grouping because most player do not solo with Clerics and Rogues.

Mages get dinged heavily in this scenario because they are good at solo, group, and raid. But as said earlier, they don't do anything especially well, with the exception of CoTH. So the average player ends up quitting the class or making them a CoTH bot, because they realize they need a different class to do non-CoTH tasks better.

It's a tough call between Rogue and Mage, but I would say Rogues can progress more than Mages in terms of improvement, which is why people play them more at level 60. If you do decide to raid a Rogue can improve their gear and DPS. A Mage is still just going to be CoTH botting. It might have been a different story if Mage Epic was easy to get. In that case I might rate Rogues lower, since Mage Epic is a DPS improvement.

[Crede]

You are vastly overestimating what a Mage is doing here, I am sorry. The Enchanter is doing the work, the Mage is just helping with DPS.

You are just ignoring/failing to acknowledge how useless a Rogue is in this duo, compared to a mage. It's not about finding the best Enchanter duo here. It's about saying yep, mage ability to malo & resummon pets/dps will help a lot more, the rogue wont really even be able to dps.

I have a rogue, I don't hate them. If one wants to be totally reliant, lazy, and be an end game raider, it's a solid class. They can be powerful in the right light, but just very underpowered overall as a class unfortunately.

Mages aren't way ahead, but they definitely win out vs rogues, sorry.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are just ignoring/failing to acknowledge how useless a Rogue is in this duo, compared to a mage. It's not about finding the best Enchanter duo here. It's about saying yep, mage ability to malo & resummon pets/dps will help a lot more, the rogue wont really even be able to dps.

I have a rogue, I don't hate them. If one wants to be totally reliant, lazy, and be an end game raider, it's a solid class. They can be powerful in the right light, but just very underpowered overall as a class unfortunately.

Mages aren't way ahead, but they definitely win out vs rogues, sorry.

Agree to disagree!

[Windez]

If we are excluding well known weaknesses, then mage's well known late game weakness shouldn't count against them. Like no one is picking mage for their late game prowess just like no one is picking rogue for their soloing ability.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If we are excluding well known weaknesses, then mage's well known late game weakness shouldn't count against them. Like no one is picking mage for their late game prowess just like no one is picking rogue for their soloing ability.

I disagree. A game like Everquest is about character progression. That is the primary drive to play the game other than the social aspects. A class who's flaw is they stop progressing earlier than every other class is unforgivable. The exception is if you are specifically a player who enjoys leveling a character, but never wants to play their character once they reach high 50s or level 60. I would venture that this isn't the majority of players, based on how many high level characters are playing.

[Windez]

I disagree. A game like Everquest is about character progression. That is the primary drive to play the game other than the social aspects. A class who's flaw is they stop progressing earlier than every other class is unforgivable. The exception is if you are specifically a player who enjoys leveling a character, but never wants to play their character once they reach high 50s or level 60. I would venture that this isn't the majority of players, based on how many high level characters are playing.

None of that has anything to do with their relative power level, which is what is being discussed here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

None of that has anything to do with their relative power level, which is what is being discussed here.

It does, because power level is the very reason why they stop progressing earlier than every other class. If they were more powerful (such as having Utility and CC), they would be able to progress further.

[Windez]

It does, because power level is the very reason why they stop progressing earlier than every other class. If they were more powerful (such as having Utility and CC), they would be able to progress further.

No it doesn't. It just means they can get to their (effectively) maximum power value faster and easier than other classes. I doesn't change that value in any way.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No it doesn't. It just means they can get to their (effectively) maximum power value faster and easier than other classes. I doesn't change that value in any way.

It does, because their maximum power is lower than other classes. Capping early doesn't mean they are better than other classes. It just means they can't progress to the next level because of their limitations.

Leveling quickly means nothing if you have nothing to do once you finish.

[Jimjam]

Leveling quickly means nothing if you have nothing to do once you finish.

but the mage's power is levelling quickly, farming pp for a twink class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

but the mage's power is levelling quickly, farming pp for a twink class.

Other classes have that power too, so it doesn't make Mages special. Necromancers can farm PP just fine and have a higher ceiling at higher levels.

For Mages it just means you are leveling a character to stop playing them when you have a better character. That's pretty underpowered, since a better class could just get their own stuff:) Or you would want to play a better class past a Mage, such as a Rogue.

[Windez]

It does, because their maximum power is lower than other classes. Capping early doesn't mean they are better than other classes. It just means they can't progress to the next level because of their limitations.

Leveling quickly means nothing if you have nothing to do once you finish.

Never said whether their maximum power is higher or lower than any other class.
Never said capping early means they are better than other classes.
Never said anything about leveling quickly.

I said, how fast they can get to maximum value has no effect on that value itself.

If the value is 500 it doesn't get lowered to 400 because other classes get to 600 later. It's still 500.

So, your point that "people play this game for progression" does not matter to what that value number is.

So, in a comparison of overall (i.e. taking all aspects of the game into account) power level of classes, we can ignore a rogue's lack of soloing ability (which is a fairly important aspect of the game to many people), we can also ignore a mage's late game mediocrity.
Really we should ignore neither, but if you want to make an arbitrary exception, then everyone else gets to make one too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Never said whether their maximum power is higher or lower than any other class.
Never said capping early means they are better than other classes.
Never said anything about leveling quickly.

I said, how fast they can get to maximum value has no effect on that value itself.

If the value is 500 it doesn't get lowered to 400 because other classes get to 600 later. It's still 500.

So, your point that "people play this game for progression" does not matter to what that value number is.

So, in a comparison of overall (i.e. taking all aspects of the game into account) power level of classes, we can ignore a rogue's lack of soloing ability (which is a fairly important aspect of the game to many people), we can also ignore a mage's late game mediocrity.
Really we should ignore neither, but if you want to make an arbitrary exception, then everyone else gets to make one too.

The exceptions are not arbitrary. They are based on how people actually play the game. People generally don't solo on Rogues most of the time, because they understand Rogues are group dependent. If soloing is important to a player, they have a solo class they can use when they can't find a group on their Rogue.

The problem is you assume late game is not valuable. That is why you think you can ignore a Mage's late game mediocrity. The purpose of leveling is to get to late game, so you can't ignore it.

The question OP asked is not "most underpowered leveling class".

[Castle2.0]

No one has the power of level 4 mage.

[PatChapp]

No one has the power of level 4 mage.

Yeah mage is s tier up to 55ish, still boring to play but very powerful.

Solid d after that

[Windez]

The exceptions are not arbitrary. They are based on how people actually play the game. People generally don't solo on Rogues most of the time, because they understand Rogues are group dependent. If soloing is important to a player, they have a solo class they can use when they can't find a group on their Rogue.

The problem is you assume late game is not valuable. That is why you think you can ignore a Mage's late game mediocrity. The purpose of leveling is to get to late game, so you can't ignore it.

The question OP asked is not "most underpowered leveling class".

In the context of a discussion of overall power, yes, they are arbitrary. In the context of overall power all aspects of the game should be weighed equally for all classes. That's the whole point of overall power. So, personally, I think your methodology is wrong, and therefore, your conclusion is unqualified.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In the context of a discussion of overall power, yes, they are arbitrary. In the context of overall power all aspects of the game should be weighed equally for all classes. That's the whole point of overall power. So, personally, I think your methodology is wrong, and therefore, your conclusion is unqualified.

I disagree. This is a 23 year old game where everybody knows how to play.

If your logic was correct, Mages would be played more than Rogues at high levels. This is because soloing would factor into people's decision making. This isn't true, which is why Rogues see more play at high levels, even though they can't solo as well as Mages. People are already devaluing Rogue soloing in their calculations, not just me.

[Windez]

I disagree. This is a 23 year old game where everybody knows how to play.

I've been in Castle for like two years now. I can guarantee this statement is false.

If your logic was correct, Mages would be played more than Rogues at high levels. This is because soloing would factor into people's decision making. This isn't true, which is why Rogues see more play at high levels, even though they can't solo as well as Mages. People are already devaluing Rogue soloing in their calculations, not just me.

So by your logic you'd see very few mages on a fresh server because they have no progression to look forward to. Like most melees rogues are at their peak in endgame velious, so there should be no surprise that you see many of them.

Anyways, I still believe your methodology is wrong, and judging by the last 59 pages, I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment. There's no further discussion needed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've been in Castle for like two years now. I can guarantee this statement is false.



So by your logic you'd see very few mages on a fresh server because they have no progression to look forward to. Like most melees rogues are at their peak in endgame velious, so there should be no surprise that you see many of them.

Anyways, I still believe your methodology is wrong, and judging by the last 59 pages, I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment. There's no further discussion needed.

The discussion isn't "most underpowered class on a fresh server". You have to look at the whole timeline.

Well, if you say no further discussion is needed, I guess that's it then:rolleyes:

[Jimjam]

No one has the power of level 4 mage.

Mage probably is most underpowered 1-3 though. I remember making an erud mage on live and even with fire spell it took a few deaths before my melee skills were high enough to survive a fight against a level 1.

[Fammaden]

That's like all the casters at level one though.

[Zuranthium]

I don't know why raid is even factored into underpowered discussion in this thread. If you are in a guild you get invited to the raid no matter how useless your class is, so raid power is irrelevant in my book.

Massive facepalm.

A guild needs to actually be able to defeat the content. If you don't have the right classes and/or amount of people, you can't. The speed and efficiency of being able to complete the content is very relevant as well.

Mage's do not do well at high levels due to lack of Utility and CC.

Yes they do. The game is about killing shit. Mages do that. You only need 1 or 2 people in the party to have CC and plenty of classes have Root. CC is not required for soloing, just find the appropriate places where chain summoning is sufficient, if you even need to chain summon (it seems the aggro mechanic for chain summoning on p99 is currently incorrect, but that's an admin error, not something against the class when discussing actual EQ).

If Mages were more powerful, less people would become CoTH bots

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

Straw man. Enchanters are the most OP class in the game, that doesn't mean Mages are the most underpowered, and they certainly aren't underpowered *because* of CoTH. There is simply a big time commitment involved with CoTH a lot of the time if you want to move the character out of and back to the CoTH spot. Hence, it's very logical to keep the Mage in that spot and then go play another character.

Any duo with a Mage is suboptimal, due to how much utility you lose by bringing a pure DPS class to a duo.

You don't need "utility" that much, stop saying this dumb line. Mages are plenty good in duo/trio. If you're gonna go somewhere like Kael and farm, which is basically what most of the game boils down to - finding a spot to plop down where you can grind through MOBs, a Mage in the majority of small group setups will result in more things being killed than if you had a Ranger or Paladin or Wizard or Warrior instead.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You do need utility, stop using that dumb line:)

[Zuranthium]

Exactly what "utility" is supposedly needed, and where?

In actuality, all that's needed in most group scenarios is 1.) Damage, 2.) Heals/Mitigation, 3). Root

Again talking about the Kael example, you can't even Stun/Mez there. You have to Root everything, and the way to make it most dependable is with magic resist debuff. Which is something Mages have. An ability that also makes another OP game mechanic - Charming - more dependable. Contrary to your inanity, Mages have one of the most useful "utility" assists in the game. And as already discussed, using their pet to offtank an add is already something they can do that isn't just DPS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Exactly what "utility" is supposedly needed, and where?

In actuality, all that's needed in most group scenarios is 1.) Damage, 2.) Heals/Mitigation, 3). Root

Again talking about the Kael example, you can't even Stun/Mez there. You have to Root everything, and the way to make that most dependable is with magic resist debuff. Which is something Mages have. An ability which also makes another OP game mechanic - Charming - more dependable. Contrary to your inanity, Mages have one of the most useful "utility" assists in the game. And as already discussed, using their pet to offtank an add is already something they can do that isn't just DPS.

Why do you think Enchanters are the most OP class in the game?

It is due to their insane amount of utility that allows them to basically do whatever they want. Charm is not the core reason why Enchanters are OP. It is all the other stuff they can do around Charming that helps them with it.

There is a reason why the classes rated most powerful and can do the most also happen to have a lot of utility. Shamans are not the highest DPS class out there, but then can do better than just about every other class when it comes to soloing.

On the bottom end, the classes that are generally considered the worst are the pure DPS classes (Wizard, Rogue, Mage). It's really not that hard.

[PatChapp]

Why do you think Enchanters are the most OP class in the game?

It is due to their insane amount of utility that allows them to basically do whatever they want. Charm is not the core reason why Enchanters are OP. It is all the other stuff they can do around Charming that helps them with it.

There is a reason why the classes rated most powerful and can do the most also happen to have a lot of utility. Shamans are not the highest DPS class out there, but then can do better than just about every other class when it comes to soloing.

On the bottom end, the classes that are generally considered the worst are the pure DPS classes (Wizard, Rogue, Mage). It's really not that hard.

Max Cha pacify is most of an enchanters solo power,agreed. Being able to split almost anything into singles,walk your way to almost any camp. Rediculously powerful

[Toxigen]

Charm is not the core reason why Enchanters are OP.

teeheehee, ok

[DeathsSilkyMist]

teeheehee, ok

It's true. Without any other utility you would Charm a monster and typically it would get killed by the 3 other mobs surrounding it.

[PatChapp]

It's true. Without any other utility you would Charm a monster and typically it would get killed by the 3 other mobs surrounding it.

That's a common way to clear placeholders and not get a faction hit in some zones to be fair

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's a common way to clear placeholders and not get a faction hit in some zones to be fair

Oh I agree. I was wondering if someone would mention that hehe. But you aren't getting any XP or loot, so it is a very specific tactic usually done in specific zones like Chardok because it is dangerous to kill stuff the normal way in that zone, and slow.

I am not saying Charm isn't great by itself btw. I am just saying Charm is generally supported by the other utility an Enchanter has, which is what makes it so strong. Not so much in raids, but we aren't really discussing raids.

[Castle2.0]

Mage probably is most underpowered 1-3 though. I remember making an erud mage on live and even with fire spell it took a few deaths before my melee skills were high enough to survive a fight against a level 1.

Now do Enchanter...

[Zuranthium]

Why do you think Enchanters are the most OP class in the game?

It is due to their insane amount of utility that allows them to basically do whatever they want. Charm is not the core reason why Enchanters are OP. It is all the other stuff they can do around Charming that helps them with it.

There is a reason why the classes rated most powerful and can do the most also happen to have a lot of utility. Shamans are not the highest DPS class out there, but then can do better than just about every other class when it comes to soloing.

On the bottom end, the classes that are generally considered the worst are the pure DPS classes (Wizard, Rogue, Mage). It's really not that hard.

Enchanters aren't OP because of their utility, they are OP because the raw numbers they generate are better than any other class. Charm, Haste, Slow, Mana Regen. They simultaneously create and prevent more damage than any other class in the game. All their other utility would be almost pointless if they weren't able to meaningfully contribute to the "damage matrix".

Shaman is in the same boat. At 60 they are able to mitigate damage more efficiently AND to a greater degree than any other class in the game (not counting kiting here), plus have efficient damage generation (even if it's not great DPS solo; but giving 50% Haste to a group of melee IS great DPS), plus have high personal mana regen. Their "damage matrix" is the 2nd best in the game.

Wizards are considered one of the worst classes not because they are a pure DPS class, but because they are BAD at doing DPS.

Rogue and Mage are not considered among the worst classes, except by fools like you. Also, there isn't any class that is simply DPS anyway. Wizard has root, snare, stun, port. Rogue provides corpse recovery and sometimes better pulling with Sneak, pick lock can be helpful for a few areas, and with poisons they can actually snare/root/slow. Mage has resist debuff, coth, mod rod (and some other occasionally useful summons), and can tank/root with pet.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Enchanters aren't OP because of their utility, they are OP because the raw numbers they generate are better than any other class. Charm, Haste, Slow, Mana Regen. They simultaneously create and prevent more damage than any other class in the game. All their other utility would be almost pointless if they weren't able to meaningfully contribute to the "damage matrix".

Shaman is in the same boat. At 60 they are able to mitigate damage more efficiently AND to a greater degree than any other class in the game (not counting kiting here), plus have efficient damage generation (even if it's not great DPS solo; but giving 50% Haste to a group of melee IS great DPS), plus have high personal mana regen. Their "damage matrix" is the 2nd best in the game.

Wizards are considered one of the worst classes not because they are a pure DPS class, but because they are BAD at doing DPS.

Rogue and Mage are not considered among the worst classes, except by fools like you. Also, there isn't any class that is simply DPS anyway. Wizard has root, snare, stun, port. Rogue provides corpse recovery and sometimes better pulling with Sneak, pick lock can be helpful for a few areas, and with poisons they can actually snare/root/slow. Mage has resist debuff, coth, mod rod (and some other occasionally useful summons), and can tank/root with pet.

Lol so Haste, Slow, and Mana Regen are not utility?:) Maybe you just don't fully understand the term. Utility in general just means non DPS spells. I don't want to have to say "CC, Heals, Buffs, Charm, etc." every time.

And I never said Wizards, Rogues, and Mages have zero utility. You just don't seem to understand that Mages, Wizards, and Rogues are designed as DPS classes. That is why their kits mostly focus on damage, while not having large amounts of utility. This lack of utility is what makes them worse overall, and their DPS doesn't make up for it. Sorry.

[Jimjam]

Mage has haste.

And can buff other players pets with haste that stacks with spell haste.

Great point you’ve made in support of magicians there!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mage has haste.

And can buff other players pets with haste that stacks with spell haste.

Great point you’ve made in support of magicians there!

It's just for their pet, and not all groups use muzzles. A Mage pet's DPS is not so amazing even with haste it transcends the need for other utility. This is why Mages don't do well at high levels.

Again, isn't it a strange coincidence that all the best classes in the game happen to have a large amount of utility?

[Keebz]

This thread is going well. Just 100 more posts or so from DSM and Zuranthium, and we might finally get to the bottom of this.

[Vivitron]

This thread is going well. Just 100 more posts or so from DSM and Zuranthium, and we might finally get to the bottom of this.

I think DSM is good for another 100 but we may need to get a few people to take turns playing his foil.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think DSM is good for another 100 but we may need to get a few people to take turns playing his foil.

Or you could contribute to the thread and help people learn:) That's probably the better option.

[Danth]

Or you could contribute to the thread and help people learn:) That's probably the better option.

I don't think anyone's learning all that much when we get caught up in these types of threads. Once in awhile something neat comes out of it, which is always nice. Mostly, though, I think it's just a bunch of us hobbyists back-and-forthing on a subject we all like. Same mechanic by which I've seen bitter, near-violent arguments crop up about things like the precise shade of paint used on some model.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't think anyone's learning all that much when we get caught up in these types of threads. Once in awhile something neat comes out of it, which is always nice. Mostly, though, I think it's just a bunch of us hobbyists back-and-forthing on a subject we all like. Same mechanic by which I've seen bitter, near-violent arguments crop up about things like the precise shade of paint used on some model.

Danth

It's still helpful, because people can see the different ways in which people attack the problem. But often times these threads get bloated by unnecessary silliness like name calling or posts like the ones above, which just make it harder for players who actually want to know this stuff.

It would be much better if people only chimed in when they wanted to contribute, instead of just troll. Then the threads would be smaller and easier to read.

[Vivitron]

Or you could contribute to the thread and help people learn:) That's probably the better option.

I put in my 2 cents; you even responded to me;) I think most of the information value of most forum discussions comes from people's initial statement of their positions and maybe a round or two of clarifying posts, and that the signal to noise ratio drops way off in the extended back and forth.

It can be enjoyable for it's own sake though -- I'm still reading the thread. These game balance/game mechanic arguments are part of the classic nostalgia for me.

[Troxx]

The real reason you don’t see a lot of high level mages trolling around p99 Norrath is directly due to the toxic raid scene. They end up parked as CoTH bots not because they’re not strong but because that’s what their guild requires of them to have any chance at competing. If raid scene worked differently and log in CoTH races weren’t necessary… you wouldn’t see them parked so often.

Mages are underpowered in no area of the game. Yeah they can’t do their dps role in certain raid zones/encounters but they have 2 critical raid jobs that no guild on p99 could compete without:

-CoTH
-mod rods

-They are strong soloers
-they are great in groups
-they have absolutely necessary raid jobs. Glamorous jobs? No, but necessary.

Underpowered my arse.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The real reason you don’t see a lot of high level mages trolling around p99 Norrath is directly due to the toxic raid scene. They end up parked as CoTH bots not because they’re not strong but because that’s what their guild requires of them to have any chance at competing. If raid scene worked differently and log in CoTH races weren’t necessary… you wouldn’t see them parked so often.

Mages are underpowered in no area of the game. Yeah they can’t do their dps role in certain raid zones/encounters but they have 2 critical raid jobs that no guild on p99 could compete without:

-CoTH
-mod rods

-They are strong soloers
-they are great in groups
-they have absolutely necessary raid jobs. Glamorous jobs? No, but necessary.

Underpowered my arse.

People park their Mages voluntarily. No guild forces people to do it, and guilds level CoTH bots that can be shared by anyone. The reason why people end up making their Mages CoTH bots is because Mages aren't very good at high levels, so this typically ends up being the best thing for the character.

If Mages were stronger, people wouldn't use their level 60 Mages as CoTH bots as much.

[Keebz]

they have 2 critical raid jobs that no guild on p99 could compete without:

-CoTH
-mod rods


Don't forget they can quad-DA. With a competent mage, you can move your raid anywhere. This is essential in ToV and can be used in other raid zones as well. A heads up mage can save raids. Look at someone like -tani.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't forget they can quad-DA. With a competent mage, you can move your raid anywhere. This is essential in ToV and can be used in other raid zones as well.

Agreed, Mages are great in Raids. But the discussion is not focused on raiding.

[Keebz]

So your stance is that Mages are the worst PvE class? Got it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So your stance is that Mages are the worst PvE class? Got it.

Yes, Mages are a very bottom heavy class. They solo/group well at low/mid levels, and then fall off in the high levels due to lack of Utility. It's why you see so few level 60 Mages doing random stuff in the world outside of raiding.

Mages can still farm low level dungeons like Droga quickly, but honestly many classes can still farm Droga at a good speed. Unless that is your passion on P99, it's not a great end for a level 60 character.

[Danth]

It's why you see so few level 60 Mages doing random stuff in the world outside of raiding.

Never did get an answer to our inquiry as to what they're doing. Too bad; I was genuinely curious, not just looking to argue.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Never did get an answer to our inquiry as to what they're doing. Too bad; I was genuinely curious, not just looking to argue.

Same. I was hoping to be wrong, maybe I am just really unlucky at finding Mages. But so far I haven't found any videos of Mages doing higher level camps, or even people talking about it in this thread. The people who are defending Mages should know this. Droga's the only camp that's really been mentioned, but it isn't a hard camp, and not high level. Any class can do it, just at different speeds.

The one video posted was cool (seeing a Mage solo an Ice Burrower), but that Mage had their Epic. I would like to see a video without Epic, since that is how the vast majority of Mages operate.

[Danth]

Same. I was hoping to be wrong, maybe I am just really unlucky at finding Mages. But so far I haven't found any videos of Mages doing higher level camps, or even people talking about it in this thread. .

The last time I saw a mage in-game he was doing 4-way in a duo in kael, which isn't bad. Pretty solid area, laid back, nothing wrong with that. The next to last time I saw one, it was two of them trying to duo upper frenzy in velk and they died rapidly. Then I don't see any for the most part getting into harder areas until we start looking at really high-end farm team type stuff where call of the hero pulling gets used.

[Jimjam]

Was in a good group a few weeks ago at upper dogs. Cleric, enc, magician (and war). Having the magician REALLY made things easier for the cleric/enc tbh. They worked very well as a threesome without the war too.

It was an epic mage though.

[Vivitron]

Was in a good group a few weeks ago at upper dogs. Cleric, enc, magician (and war). Having the magician REALLY made things easier for the cleric/enc tbh. They worked very well as a threesome without the war too.

It was an epic mage though.

Cler/Ench/Mag is a good trio. I've done it for xp, and I think it would be a great Puppets farm group. It's nice that the mage pet holds aggro during a charm break instead of having the enchanter or cleric take hits, especially against summoners.

[PatChapp]

Cler/Ench/Mag is a good trio. I've done it for xp, and I think it would be a great Puppets farm group. It's nice that the mage pet holds aggro during a charm break instead of having the enchanter or cleric take hits, especially against summoners.
Yeah I like having the second pet around for charm breaks as well. Enchanter /mage can do cliff golems with basically no chance of dieing. Can solo one spawn on the enchanter,but there's a guarenteed death at some point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah I like having the second pet around for charm breaks as well. Enchanter /mage can do cliff golems with basically no chance of dieing. Can solo one spawn on the enchanter,but there's a guarenteed death at some point.

You can pet tank with a Shaman pet on Cliff Golems. Mage pet specifically isn't necessary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY . Just need the Golem to be slowed.

[Jimjam]

In a mage/enc duo on cliff golems I don't think I'd swap the magician out for a shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In a mage/enc duo on cliff golems I don't think I'd swap the magician out for a shaman.

You should. Enchanters and Shamans can solo Cliff Golems. Mages can't solo Cliff Golems.

[Jimjam]

You should. Enchanters and Shamans can solo Cliff Golems. Mages can't solo Cliff Golems.

How well they solo cliff golems has little to do with what is the better duo for killing cliff golems ...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How well they solo cliff golems has little to do with what is the better duo for killing cliff golems ...

It does, because that means you have two classes that are just better at killing Cliff Golems lol.

[Jimjam]

So your retort to mag/enc/cleric being a decent trio for upper dogs (and other camps) is that shaman can solo cliff golems ...

[PatChapp]

How well they solo cliff golems has little to do with what is the better duo for killing cliff golems ...

Agreed, in this instance a mage offers at least as much as the shaman. Adding the mage pet I often don't need to slow a second time,as the golem dies much faster than with just a gargoyle on it.
I've done it with a Necro often as well,and it goes fine. Backup mez very nice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So your retort to mag/enc/cleric being a decent trio for upper dogs (and other camps) is that shaman can solo cliff golems ...

What? Not sure how you got that from what I said.

I didn't respond to the upper dogs quote because that's an easy camp. You don't need a Mage to do it. Nor do you need a Mage to do Cliff Golems.

My point is that the current examples you gave aren't any examples of why Mages specifically are good. Literally any duo with an Enchanter can kill Cliff Golems, because Enchanters can already solo them.

Agreed, in this instance a mage offers at least as much as the shaman. Adding the mage pet I often don't need to slow a second time,as the golem dies much faster than with just a gargoyle on it.
I've done it with a Necro often as well,and it goes fine. Backup mez very nice.

No, they offer less than a Shaman. Shamans can heal, have a better slow, have a better unresistable Malo, can buff, etc. My point about the Shaman pet was you could use a lot of pets from different classes to fill this same role of tanking the Golem during Charm breaks. Mage isn't special here. Enchanters can even supply the slow if the pet class in question doesn't have it.

[Danth]

My point is that the current examples you gave aren't any examples of why Mages specifically are good.

Yeah, trio'ing stuff the wife and I duo or she can solo is hardly a ringing endorsement for someone, and I don't even call magicians "worst." This line had originally cropped up because of hints, without examples, of very good areas magicians were awesome at solo or duo'ing at. It peaked my interest but so far examples of doing the stuff everyone else does, often with more people, basically fits my own assessment of "middle of the pack."

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This line had originally cropped up because of hints, without examples, of very good areas magicians were awesome at solo or duo'ing at.

Exactly. Still waiting on examples of these good Magician solo/duo areas.

[Danth]

To be fair, I have learned a thing or two about what they can do in raid settings that I had been previously unaware of (or had forgotten....I've forgotten a lot over the years). Useless to me in the parts of the game I hang out in, but interesting trivia anyhow.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To be fair, I have learned a thing or two about what they can do in raid settings that I had been previously unaware of (or had forgotten....I've forgotten a lot over the years). Useless to me in the parts of the game I hang out in, but interesting trivia anyhow.

Awesome! Glad to see the discussion has been even a bit useful.

[Danth]

Awesome! Glad to see the discussion has been even a bit useful.

If nothing else its never a bad thing to blab about a shared hobby when we've nothing better to do. I'm AFK too much today for it to be worth actually trying to log in so the forum has to do.

To prevent confusion, insofar as I recall JimJam wasn't claiming mages were "best" either, don't mean to imply he did, only that they're not worst, so he and I weren't necessarily disagreeing on anything. I'm just slightly, but genuinely, disappointed there seemingly isn't some unknown-to-me area that only magicians can do effectively. It'd be pretty cool if there was.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm just slightly, but genuinely, disappointed there seemingly isn't some unknown-to-me area that only magicians can do effectively. It'd be pretty cool if there was.

Me too. I honestly love pet classes in games, including Mages. I was hoping there was some cool trick they could do which allows them to do some interesting camps.

Sadly Mages just get gimped hard by lack of CC and pet AI issues. They would be better if they could simply use pets everywhere without it being a problem, including raids.

[Jimjam]

Off tanking is pretty good cc. Would be cool if monster summoning was a beast of a tank, great aggro, but with poor dps. Make it the tank option for pet groups. That line of spells really needs something to make it stand out.

I know wishlisting for a dead game is pointless, but still fun!

[Danth]

Would be cool if monster summoning was...

That spell line is definitely one of EQ's missed opportunities.

[Jimjam]

To prevent confusion, insofar as I recall JimJam wasn't claiming mages were "best" either, don't mean to imply he did, only that they're not worst, so he and I weren't necessarily disagreeing on anything. I'm just slightly, but genuinely, disappointed there seemingly isn't some unknown-to-me area that only magicians can do effectively. It'd be pretty cool if there was.

Danth

yeah, there is a bit of cross talk, cos I'm deffo not saying they're the best, i appreciate you clarifying that.

Mage pets should be pretty good back liners (as in off tanking, or keeping aggro when there is an issue with the tank) - but there are some weird aggro bugs in p1999 which makes them less good at this, and it does make mages slightly more annoying to group with than they should be.

[Troxx]

Agreed, Mages are great in Raids. But the discussion is not focused on raiding.

Lol if it is not focused on raiding then where do you get off putting them dead last? Because they can solo? Because their group dps is tippy top notch?

Or is it just because they can’t cc? Cause last I checked warriors, rogues and monks have zero cc also. My mage pet tanks more than well enough to get the job done and mages worth their salt will out-dps rogues on most content (high end raids notwithstanding).

Jesus man sometimes I think you like to type up PhD dissertations of bullshit just to hear yourself talk.

[Troxx]

Don't forget they can quad-DA. With a competent mage, you can move your raid anywhere.

My inner newb is about to blossom …
Cut me some slack it has been years …

Remind me about this quad DA thing?

[Jimjam]

i think it is 1 sky Divine Aura (plus recharge), 1 idol DA, and 1 velious DA

[Troxx]

Mage pet = solid sustained dps. An off tank if you need it. A beefy primary tank if you have no melee. Regents fast. Cheap to cast. Chain summonable.

Beyond that mages can:
-Give the best DS in the game
-give their mana to others who need it more to keep a raid/group rolling
-summon any group mate to them
-add some haste to other peoples pets
-nuke as efficiently/effectively as most other damage dealing casters if not better.

As a whole the mage can:
-solo effortlessly most of their levels
-solo more efficiently than most classes all their levels
-put our tippy top notch dps in groups while adding some utility other than direct root cc
-but their pets can easily offtank 1-2 mobs which is its own utility

They’re closer to the top than the bottom in terms of global power and effectiveness.


We mostly have one person (DSM) who has proven a very eloquently verbose (if ineffective) troll who states otherwise … because it’s his opinion.

Most underpowered? Hard to say but at the high end wizard/druid are prime contenders. When you look at the whole scope of what p99 has to offer though all classes shine in their own right.

[Troxx]

I’m no mage fanboy. It was my 6th or 7th alt. But all the way to 60 I never ever felt underpowered. I always tethered my pet dps to my mage on real time parsing and always … consistently… and effortlessness nearly always put out the most damage.

Why the fck have people not put wizard/druid dead last? Cause they can port? They both suck donkey dick at sustained dps. Druids can passably heal but all other healers do it better.

#confused

To whatever end … of all the classes I’ve played (including 1 of the 2 I value least as noted above) I have never felt underpowered. My druid heals well enough to get by and the mobility and buffs are nice.

[Jimjam]

Troxx what are your thoughts on Paladin being most underpowered? Some people mentioned it. I can somewhat understand, but on the other hand I've seen paladins consistently solo seb crypt, so they can't be that underpowered ... right?

[Troxx]

Paladin is nowhere close to most underpowered.

Strong utility kit. Great tanking. They can lull pull. They can solo better than war/rog. They have important raid roles.

Only kryptonite is low dps.

My vote for end game is druid as absolute worst. I say this having one at level 60z. Capable in their own right but 100% replaceable for everything other than casting potg.

But i acknowledge they can port, buff, quad, charm and a lot of other things relevant for levels 1-59. They are not fully obsolete ever … they just can’t do anything someone else does better other than cast Glades at 60. They have flexibility in the sense that they CAN get the job done healing and CAN dps if not called to heal … but for each job they are objectively the worst possible choice. Worst healer bar none (though adequate enough) … and of the classes that can be expected to fill a dps role they suck at it. But they can flip flop between the two.

[Troxx]

So yeah I assert that globally all classes have their moments of shine. Some are situational. Some are level dependent. Some are group awesomesauce while others do better in raids.

Wizard are globally the most fucked. At 60 in raids Druids are worse though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol if it is not focused on raiding then where do you get off putting them dead last? Because they can solo? Because their group dps is tippy top notch?

Or is it just because they can’t cc? Cause last I checked warriors, rogues and monks have zero cc also. My mage pet tanks more than well enough to get the job done and mages worth their salt will out-dps rogues on most content (high end raids notwithstanding).

Jesus man sometimes I think you like to type up PhD dissertations of bullshit just to hear yourself talk.

I have explained this already:

Indeed. This discussion will have a lot of hidden assumptions from everybody involved. My approach is to look at how the average player actually ends up playing P99. So the focus is mostly on Solo/Group, with a minor emphasis in raid. I don't assume the average player is simply leveling a class and then quitting it immediately.

Warriors get more emphasis on raiding specifically because most players make Warriors for raiding.

Clerics and Rogues get more emphasis on Grouping because most player do not solo with Clerics and Rogues.

Mages get dinged heavily in this scenario because they are good at solo, group, and raid. But as said earlier, they don't do anything especially well, with the exception of CoTH. So the average player ends up quitting the class or making them a CoTH bot, because they realize they need a different class to do non-CoTH tasks better.

It's a tough call between Rogue and Mage, but I would say Rogues can progress more than Mages in terms of improvement, which is why people play them more at level 60. If you do decide to raid a Rogue can improve their gear and DPS. A Mage is still just going to be CoTH botting. It might have been a different story if Mage Epic was easy to get. In that case I might rate Rogues lower, since Mage Epic is a DPS improvement.

[PatChapp]

I’m no mage fanboy. It was my 6th or 7th alt. But all the way to 60 I never ever felt underpowered. I always tethered my pet dps to my mage on real time parsing and always … consistently… and effortlessness nearly always put out the most damage.

Why the fck have people not put wizard/druid dead last? Cause they can port? They both suck donkey dick at sustained dps. Druids can passably heal but all other healers do it better.

#confused

To whatever end … of all the classes I’ve played (including 1 of the 2 I value least as noted above) I have never felt underpowered. My druid heals well enough to get by and the mobility and buffs are nice.
Druids can charm basically all the way through the level range if they pick zones right.
Great backup healers,lots of utility. Druids very strong class.

[Troxx]

Correct!

They are a globally very strong class. They suffer only on raids endgame. That’s my point. I can’t think of a single class that just sucks. In their own right and considering all aspects of gameplay I can’t think of a single bad class.

[Troxx]

I have explained this already:

I know you ‘explained’ it already. The ‘explanation’ is horse hockey though.

[Keebz]

If you leave out raiding (read: targets that requires disc), I think Warriors are pretty bad and Rogues are a close second. They just have 0 abilities, can't solo and aren't necessary for anything. Rogues have a few more uses, at least.

If you specifically talk about raiding, Druids are pretty oof, except in PoG/Fear. Though POTG is great, and their long range heal is occasionally useful. Wizards are situational as well, but between AE, TLing, kiting, tagging, and nuking (e.g. Dragonbane or 32k targets), they are usually quite welcome. The hybrids get shit on, but they can auto-attack raid mobs and tank trash which is never useless. While SKs are probably the weakest of the group, I struggle to think of a raid situation where you'd want to switch from an SK to a Druid. Maybe to cast some POTG or SOW, but you would probably log back over.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know you ‘explained’ it already. The ‘explanation’ is horse hockey though.

Data-wise it doesn't seem to be "horse hockey", because you factually don't see a lot of Mages outside of raiding. If they were better, you would.

[cd288]

You see mages in exp groups all the time what are you even talking about?

[Zuranthium]

Lol so Haste, Slow, and Mana Regen are not utility?:) Maybe you just don't fully understand the term. Utility in general just means non DPS spells. I don't want to have to say "CC, Heals, Buffs, Charm, etc." every time.

Those things are mostly not utility, YOU are the one who doesn't understand the term.

Haste is nothing more than a way to generate DPS. Slow/Heal removes opposing DPS. Mana Regen gives people more ability to use their things that either generate or reduce damage. As I've tried to explain to you many times, this game mostly comes down to doing as much damage as possible while being able to survive.

Utility abilities are things that have applications outside of combat or maybe effect combat in ways that are more complex than a singular increase or decrease of damage. Although things like Root/Mesmerize/Stun can still be easily described in pure mathematical terms most of the time, via how much damage they are preventing because the enemy is not attacking. Root even adds DPS because it forces the enemy to hit the target you put damage shield on and allows your non-tank people to attack from behind (Mesmerize/Stun can occasionally "add" DPS as well by preventing a healing NPC from casting).

Since Root is the only "utility" needed most of the time, and so many classes have this ability (every class technically has a bit of rooting ability via root nets; sometimes you just need that to break the spawn rotation of a camp), it therefore makes "utility" not a high priority thing in groups.

In a mage/enc duo on cliff golems I don't think I'd swap the magician out for a shaman.

You should. Enchanters and Shamans can solo Cliff Golems. Mages can't solo Cliff Golems.

DeathsSuckyMist, you keep showing how ignorant you are at every turn. Even though we've tried to walk you through this in every way possible.

The point of killing Cliff Golems is because you want the loot they might have. Therefore, killing them as fast as possible results in more loot. Mage/Enchanter will get more gains than Shaman/Enchanter. For most situations, this same things holds true: You are trying to get as many gains as possible, in the form of exp or faction or loot, and killing as many things as possible and/or as efficiently as possible is the way to do it. Hence why DPS is King.

Also, your premise is incorrect to begin with. Mages can solo Cliff Golems.

Paladin is nowhere close to most underpowered.

Strong utility kit. Great tanking. They can lull pull. They can solo better than war/rog. They have important raid roles.

Only kryptonite is low dps.

Paladins aren't needed for raids at all and they suck at soloing, you're going to progress incredibly slow like that. Better to just spend a bit of time getting a group together, same as a Warrior or Rogue. The gains a Paladin can make in the meantime while looking for a group are marginal. Considering their horrendous exp penalty before Velious, it's very much a loss compared to Warrior/Rogue when trying to level, including the contribution to a group. I'd rather take a Warrior more often than not as tank pre-Velious in an exp group, for their superior DPS and inherent exp bonus.

[Vivitron]

You see mages in exp groups all the time what are you even talking about?

I believe he's talking post 60. Imagine you have already levelled your character, tossed some raid gear on it, nothing's in window and you don't need any padding xp, what do you do with it? If you're a shaman maybe you go solo A4 or Ayillish or something, but as a mage?

I don't think mages are uniquely bad here, probably pretty similar to the rest of the bottom third or so of the classes on that metric. But for some classes having good answers to that question can be a strong perk.

[magnetaress]

Also, two, or three mages is one of the best ways to level or lock down a camp. Especially in real classic.

[Danth]

The point of killing Cliff Golems is because you want the loot they might have.

Eh? If the wife and I hammer over to OT to beat up some golems, you can rest assured we don't give a damn what they drop. The reason we'd go there is to have a nice time enjoying the game's good mechanics in a convenient laid-back spot, doesn't matter whether we kill five or fifteen, whether they drop nothing or some random wizard spell or whatever. Different folks do stuff for vastly different reasons and obsessing over speed is far from universal. Point being, speed is only one aspect of a character, a nice one, but not the end-all be-all.

You see mages in exp groups all the time what are you even talking about?

Speaking just for myself, having been 60 for a very long time and hence far removed from the leveling game, here's my very unscientific impression of what I tend to run in to out and about in the parts of the game I like to hang out in: I feel like I see a fair amount of enchanters, necromancers, shamans, clerics, druids, paladins, monks, and bards. Usually I'm cursing the bards. I don't see all that many warriors, rogues, shadowknights, rangers, magicians, or wizards. Doesn't mean they're not online, just they're not as often doing the same type of stuff that I like to do. For example I assume Warriors are disproportionately likely to be raiding. I probably see more paladins than random chance would suggest due to my own nostalgia for the class causing me to tend to talk paladin stuff them and invite 'em to hang out.

Danth

[Raj]

66 pages of Ca. 1999-2001 arguments still waging on with the greatest of passions!

Cool and normal stuff my friends! Let's see if we can get to 100+ pages by the end of the month. :cool:

[Toxigen]

Paladins aren't needed for raids at all

Well well, I see someones never been on a low numbers AoW kill, fast vulak engage, or anything else remotely competitive since the soulfire nerf (paladin buff).

[Zuranthium]

Eh? If the wife and I hammer over to OT to beat up some golems, you can rest assured we don't give a damn what they drop. The reason we'd go there is to have a nice time enjoying the game's good mechanics in a convenient laid-back spot, doesn't matter whether we kill five or fifteen, whether they drop nothing or some random wizard spell or whatever. Different folks do stuff for vastly different reasons and obsessing over speed is far from universal.

That's irrelevant to an objective analysis of power level. I love playing casual theme decks in Magic the Gathering. Doesn't mean the power level of those decks is high.

Imagine you have already levelled your character, tossed some raid gear on it, nothing's in window and you don't need any padding xp, what do you do with it? If you're a shaman maybe you go solo A4 or Ayillish or something, but as a mage?

If you're a Mage you can solo/group in Plane of Mischief and various other spots too.

Well well, I see someones never been on a low numbers AoW kill, fast vulak engage, or anything else remotely competitive since the soulfire nerf (paladin buff).

If you are low numbers for something, Paladin isn't the class you want there to optimize the raid. "Competitive raid" in the p99 PvE sense is a joke and not what actual competition looks like, nor what classic EQ raiding looked like. You should explain why you think Paladin is some kind of benefit there anyway, I can probably tell you why what you're doing is not the best tactic. Soulfire wasn't used on Red99, btw, and ToV was being taken down with smaller amounts of people there than on Blue (and with characters who are geared less for PvE, wearing more resist-centric equip to guard against PvP).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Zuranthium simply doesn't know what he is talking about unfortunately. He has some weird fetish with DPS that simply blinds him to other aspects of the game. He doesn't understand that increasing DPS doesn't always work, or matter.

I am done with the thread. Mages are the most underpowered when looking at overall power. Underpowered does not mean bad, or you shouldn't play them. You simply need to think about this when deciding to roll a Mage, as you will hit your ceiling earlier than level 60, and not have much to do. They are basically a DPS class due to their lack of non-DPS spells (Utility Spells), and that puts them at the bottom with the other DPS classes (Rogue and Wizard).

Nobody has been able to provide proper Mage camps at level 60 that make Mages particularly good.

[Troxx]

I am done with the thread.

Did we just win the internet?

[Danth]

Yeah. Power and speed are not the same thing; the latter is but one component of the former. If speed was everything then rank people by the average DPS they do and, Bam!, you're done. EQ doesn't always work that way. Obsessing solely over maximum potential speed ignores other aspects of character strength such as staying power, ease of use, reliability, versatility, synergy with other characters, and realistic ceiling vs. absolute ceiling. A rogue can do higher potential damage than a monk can but by any reasonable metric the monk's the stronger character overall.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I still think rather poorly of wizards and probably rate them most underpowered, personally. It struggles to a unique degree to even accomplish its own primary role. If we disagree DSM, well, there's room in the world for that.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did we just win the internet?

The last thing I will say is this has never been about "winning" (at least, not for me). I just want to get the correct information out to new players. Unfortunately many peoples idea of "winning" in this thread is spreading skewed information due to their love for a specific class, or misunderstandings of mechanics like DPS. It isn't helping anyone. That is why I am discontinuing the thread. Objectivity has been lost, and "winning" is what people care about now, not proper information.

[Fammaden]

Magician most underpowered in Kunark/Velious. Thread closed.

[Muggens]

enchanter, bard, shaman and monk are OP. Mage, druid, ranger, pally, sk being mentioned here are all super strong. The only lackluster class is warrior and rogue, especially in classic. They get strong with gear and raiding, and are more or less bereft of any capabilities on their own(without a shit-ton of gear) atleast the rog can move to the group.
Sure some classes have little use in a raid but come on they have so much utility and uses in a ton of other situations(and solo).

[Vivitron]

My inner newb is about to blossom …
Cut me some slack it has been years …

Remind me about this quad DA thing?

As Jimjam suggested casters can do Earring of the Frozen Skull -> DA Idol for a double DA, and mages can do Frozen Skull -> Sky ring -> Sky ring (recharged) -> Idol for a quad DA.

This leads to some really cool "we wouldn't have won that dragon without da trains" moments in ToV.

[7thGate]

That reminds me of something I wanted to test, I think it might be viable to have a mage solo ramp tank anything with corpsed box of the voids....though I guess I don't remember if you can loot a body while DA. I think so though? Need to test that sometime.

[Fammaden]

I hear you can kill the Sleeper if you corpse enough magician epics at Yeli's lair, and no other guilds play on the same server as you do.

[Keebz]

If you look at raw population numbers, it's usually Paladin or Ranger at the bottom. Wizard is usually pretty close as well. So it got me thinking about adding together the raiding AND non-raiding (e.g. leveling, farming) power levels. With this mindset, I think it might be Ranger.

Logic:

Leveling the Paladin is a better as a MT 50-60. For farming, a Paladin can tank well enough and with DW BP and Soulfire solo some nasty stuff. They also pair reasonably well with Ench. On the Ranger, your farming options are more using tracking and farming greens. 55+ you get kind of wrecked face tanking without some serious gear, and no one is inviting you to their HS group.

Raiding: Rangers get WS, COTP, solid DPS, and track is occasionally useful. Paladins get DA, DS, Soulfire/LoH and can tank trash better. However, WS is soo good that it's close. I think it's advantage Ranger, but not enough to offset the non-raiding aspect.

I still think Warrior/Rogue are pretty bad, but their required status for raiding and their unoffensive 50-60 grouping story gives them a leg up, imho. I can also see a case for SK/Wiz if someone wants to make the argument.

[cd288]

Did we just win the internet?

Thankfully he said he’s done with the thread so we don’t have to read his self important essay length posts

[Keebz]

That reminds me of something I wanted to test, I think it might be viable to have a mage solo ramp tank anything with corpsed box of the voids....though I guess I don't remember if you can loot a body while DA. I think so though? Need to test that sometime.

You can loot while DA.

[Jimjam]

I just checked /who all counts and equating unpopularity to underpowedness the players have voted paladin.

[Fammaden]

I think that is more of a poll on which classes players find the most boring.

[Zuranthium]

I just want to get the correct information out to new players.

Then you should have stopped posting in here a long time ago. I will pray for the poor new souls who listen to your advice and waste days of their life doing things very inefficiently.

Zuranthium has some weird fetish with DPS that simply blinds him to other aspects of the game. He doesn't understand that increasing DPS doesn't always work, or matter.

I never said nothing but DPS is needed. You unfortunately just don't understand the mechanics and the many reiterations that have been explained to you. Despite it being factual basic math. There are no "other aspects of the game" you understand better, your videos make that abundantly clear.

Not a single time in this thread have you given any good examples to support your opinion that "utility" is some all-important thing (a term you don't understand to begin with, trying to call things like Haste "utility"). You just keep stating it over and over, and basically only showing how slowly and unoptimally you play the game. Maybe you need a whole group of CC'ers and backup healers to do group content, but this game doesn't require that. Other people will achieve far more in the same amount of played time.

Nobody has been able to provide proper Mage camps at level 60 that make Mages particularly good.

Several were listed. But, like, you don't seem to understand chain petting. It opens up a lot of possibilities. It's crazy how you think Mages can't solo well. Granted, chain-petting is currently behaving incorrectly with aggro on p99, which sucks, but that's not how it's supposed to be. Hopefully they fix it, and other bizarre things like the Druid Immolate spell doing 0 damage for almost a year now (wtf?).

If you look at raw population numbers, it's usually Paladin or Ranger at the bottom. Wizard is usually pretty close as well. So it got me thinking about adding together the raiding AND non-raiding (e.g. leveling, farming) power levels. With this mindset, I think it might be Ranger.

Leveling the Paladin is better as a MT 50-60. For farming, a Paladin can tank well enough and with DW BP and Soulfire solo some nasty stuff. They also pair reasonably well with Ench. On the Ranger, your farming options are more using tracking and farming greens. 55+ you get kind of wrecked face tanking without some serious gear, and no one is inviting you to their HS group.

Raiding: Rangers get WS, COTP, solid DPS, and track is occasionally useful. Paladins get DA, DS, Soulfire/LoH and can tank trash better. However, WS is soo good that it's close. I think it's advantage Ranger, but not enough to offset the non-raiding aspect

I don't think it's close between the two for raiding. Tracking is more than occasionally useful, it's constantly helpful for seeing when things pop and mobilizing. Ranger is a big DPS increase to the raid with their buffs and Weaponshield is great. Nothing a Paladin does is needed. I'd rather just have another Cleric in the guild to ensure there's always a sufficient C-heal chain, especially since a guild can go for two raid targets at the same time if there are enough Clerics (and DPS, and Warriors) to support that play.

Outside of raids I'm also never like "I need a Paladin to do [xxx]". Whereas a Ranger for Tracking is something I might actually request. Paladin does do more in some groups, sure. For soloing a Ranger can level themselves faster by fear kiting animals, than a Paladin can by face tanking and having awful DPS. There are some specific things a Paladin can solo better but...why? It's better to be grouping. Ranger going for Quillmane cloaks is effectively doing something more productive with their time than a Paladin with their solo time.

The Soulfire thing in general is weird. It's a very limited ability. You can't just have that for every raid fight or go around soloing things nonstop with it. Speaking of actual classic EQ.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just take a look at this thread: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3491696#post3491696

To see how little Zuranthium actually knows about the game. He doesn't understand pulling, push, pet positioning, how mana effects DPS, etc.

Even when I provide video evidence he refuses to admit he is wrong. Be cautious when taking his advise (at least for now, he can always change). At this moment he seems hell bent on trying to be right, regardless of how wrong he is.

He doesn't understand that spells other that DPS spells (CC, Heals, Buffs, FD, etc.) have an effect on how to play the game correctly and efficiently. Enchanters are the best class in the game because of how much utility they have other than raw DPS. But he doesn't know this apparently. However, he will gladly split hairs on what we call non-DPS spells, since that is an easy win for him, which he is desperate for.

[Keebz]

I don't think it's close between the two for raiding. Tracking is more than occasionally useful, it's constantly helpful for seeing when things pop and mobilizing. Ranger is a big DPS increase to the raid with their buffs and Weaponshield is great. Nothing a Paladin does is needed. I'd rather just have another Cleric in the guild to ensure there's always a sufficient C-heal chain, especially since a guild can go for two raid targets at the same time if there are enough Clerics (and DPS, and Warriors) to support that play.

Outside of raids I'm also never like "I need a Paladin to do [xxx]". Whereas a Ranger for Tracking is something I might actually request. Paladin does do more in some groups, sure. For soloing a Ranger can level themselves faster by fear kiting animals, than a Paladin can by face tanking and having awful DPS. There are some specific things a Paladin can solo better but...why? It's better to be grouping. Ranger going for Quillmane cloaks is effectively doing something more productive with their time than a Paladin with their solo time.

The Soulfire thing in general is weird. It's a very limited ability. You can't just have that for every raid fight or go around soloing things nonstop with it. Speaking of actual classic EQ.

In raiding, tracking is useful in the planes for getting mob counts, but when looking for specific targets, pet tracking is the norm since it can be done from zone in or other safe spot.

I do see your point on Ranger utility and general lack of necessity for Paladins (except for DS), though the Soulfire nerf has changed things a bit. My main issue with Rangers is the lack of power 50+ non-raiding. Yea, you can track and do questing and what not, but in a dungeon you're very blah. Paladins at least lull, root their way around, face tank, stun casters, etc. They also pair reasonable well with Ench, which is a point for imho. I put a lot of weight on 55+ dungeoning, so if you don't I think it's fair to disagree.

I have also played all the melees well into the 50's except Paladin, so I may be overestimating. Time to level a Paladin I guess.

[Zuranthium]

Just take a look at this thread: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3491696#post3491696

Indeed look at that thread, and your gameplay videos, for further proof of how suboptimally you play the game.

In raiding, tracking is useful in the planes for getting mob counts, but when looking for specific targets, pet tracking is the norm since it can be done from zone in or other safe spot.

I feel like pet tracking had a smaller range in classic, I remember very clearly knowing the mechanic to have the pet attack something even when you couldn't see the target (Hermit in South Karana for example) and trying to test how far I could use this from; at a certain distance from MOBs I seem to remember the pet not responding at all, which runs counter to p99 where it gives an emote. Logically there should be documentation of guilds using this back then if it worked, because plenty of people knew the command to do it; has anyone actually found evidence? I certainly don't remember guilds on my servers doing it.

My main issue with Rangers is the lack of power 50+ non-raiding. Yea, you can track and do questing and what not, but in a dungeon you're very blah. Paladins at least lull, root their way around, face tank, stun casters, etc.

Do you mean solo? Because for me that just goes back to the point of how a Paladin isn't going to make better "gains" solo in a dungeon than a Ranger can elsewhere.

If you mean for groups, well yeah a Paladin can do some things better, but they become weaker if the group already has a tank. Ranger can add a good amount of damage to a melee-heavy group and they also have Root, plus Snare. I wouldn't say a Paladin necessarily duos better with Enchanter all the time, being able to Snare everything is the safer option when charming sometimes, and Ranger's healing is often sufficient to fill the gaps an Enchanter might need.

I don't rate Lull super highly tbh, because if you are depending on it to move past a deadly spot in a closed-off area, then a crit resist simply means you die. I'm pretty sure Lull got crit resisted more frequently in actual classic than it does here. I remember an Enchanter friend complaining about how much that happened and how frustrating it was to watch Rangers be able to Harmony with no danger in a bunch of zones as compared to Lull (and I remember similar things playing an Enchanter for myself starting in late 2000). In safer areas with targets that aren't resisting at all, then Root can be nearly the same as Lull anyway, you just run past them after rooting and /camp before moving on.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't rate Lull super highly tbh.


You keep revealing your lack of game knowledge. You don't even know how lull works on P99. That is why you prefer root.

You need to actually start playing P99 and learning it before you give advice. It doesn't matter how you think P99 works, it only matters how it actually works.

Regardless of how lull might have worked on live in 1999, it does not get resisted nearly that much on P99. Until that changes, there is no point in worrying about how you think it should work. Use lull and be happy:)

[Danth]

. I'm pretty sure Lull got crit resisted more frequently in actual classic than it does here. I remember an Enchanter friend complaining about how much that happened and how frustrating it was to watch Rangers be able to Harmony with no danger in a bunch of zones as compared to Lull

I'm with you there, I played a paladin throughout that era and the lull spell line sucked no matter how much charisma you stacked.

Verant massively nerfed lull, utterly crippled the spell, a few months after EQ opened. They gave it a greatly increased, hugely inflatwed resist rate. It rendered the entire line practically useless except for use against very low blues and greens. Later on, during I think Luclin era, that nerf was reverted and the spell line was revamped; P1999, being based off PoP-era EQ-EMU, to my knowledge never truly implemented lull spells with their classic resist rates. The classic lull nerf was done host-side so it never showed up in the spelldata files that P99 tends to use as primary evidence.

Danth

[DMN]

Four score and 70 pages ago....

It's a poor question because there are too many categories of playing the game where the answer will be different.

[PatChapp]

Pacify gets resisted constantly, do any of you play enchanters? If your doing high lvl mobs, you can expect at least 5 resists each.
I have had 44 in a row from a mob that can be max lvl 55. It was annoying.
Cha has never affected resist rates,it only affects the rate at which a resist becomes a critical resist.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pacify gets resisted constantly, do any of you play enchanters? If your doing high lvl mobs, you can expect at least 5 resists each.
I have had 44 in a row from a mob that can be max lvl 55. It was annoying.
Cha has never affected resist rates,it only affects the rate at which a resist becomes a critical resist.

Critical resists are the main problem, which is alleviated via CHA. But yes, I have gotten plenty of resist chains myself on the lull line of spells. Like everything in EQ, you get unlucky at times. But it's still generally better than trying to root the whole camp while having 3+ mobs trying to kill you, especially at higher levels when mobs hurt even more.

[PatChapp]

Critical resists are the main problem, which is alleviated via CHA. But yes, I have gotten plenty of resist chains myself on the lull line of spells. Like everything in EQ, you get unlucky at times. But it's still generally better than trying to root the whole camp while having 3+ mobs trying to kill you, especially at higher levels when mobs hurt even more.
Agreed pacify line is extremely powerful, just also resisted alot of your doing any sort of hard content.

[Gloomlord]

It's clearly Wizard. There are very little redeeming qualities to this class other than being raid DPS.

Horrible DPS in groups that is outpaced even by the knights. Mediocre soloing that is dependant upon SOME gear. Negligible utility other than mobilisation and evacuation.

They're so terribly designed, I have no idea what Verant was thinking.

[Zuranthium]

You keep revealing your lack of game knowledge. You don't even know how lull works on P99. That is why you prefer root.

No, you just reveal your lack of intelligence, once again missing the point. That point being, Lull can not simply be depended upon to move through an area freely or pull for free. It will sometimes be crit resisted, thus getting you nowhere. In areas where Lull is completely dependable, Root can often serve the same function. For example, 3 MOBs are standing next to each other. You pull by rooting one of them and then run back and root one of the others. Now they are completely separated, the same as Lull would have done.

Your fallacy here is idiotic on multiple levels, seeing as Root has other functions that Lull doesn't. Root is crowd control, lull does nothing on already aggroed mobs. Root is aggro management, forcing the MOB to hit the nearest melee player. Root prevents wanderers from pathing away, saving time from not having to chase them down.

And for the typical grouping situations we've been talking about in this thread, Lull is almost never needed over Root to begin with. The best ways and places to level don't require Lull, nor for grinding faction, nor for the majority of item/cash farming.

Regardless of how lull might have worked on live in 1999, it does not get resisted nearly that much on P99. Until that changes, there is no point in worrying about how you think it should work.

p99 is trying to recreate classic EQ. Thus, discussions about "the game" on p99 are often about Classic, and about reminiscing.

I'm with you there, I played a paladin throughout that era and the lull spell line sucked no matter how much charisma you stacked.

Verant massively nerfed lull, utterly crippled the spell, a few months after EQ opened. They gave it a greatly increased, hugely inflatwed resist rate. It rendered the entire line practically useless except for use against very low blues and greens. Later on, during I think Luclin era, that nerf was reverted and the spell line was revamped; P1999, being based off PoP-era EQ-EMU, to my knowledge never truly implemented lull spells with their classic resist rates. The classic lull nerf was done host-side so it never showed up in the spelldata files that P99 tends to use as primary evidence.

Yeah that makes total sense. What you say about it only being reliable on low blues also matches up with my memory. Harmony was WAY, WAY better than Lull (in outdoor tagged zones, of course). Lull was very risky in the places you actually needed it most, and not worth using to pull with over Root the majority of the time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You still don't know the proper definition of fallacy.

Lull can be used consistently to get though areas and pull on P99. You haven't been playing a class with lull it seems. Roots can break early, so it isn't like you can't get bad luck with root too lol. In a dungeon where you don't need to lull due to the power of your group, you don't need much CC anyway. But not all dungeons/groups are like that.

Is it possible you haven't played P99 since roots always held for max duration? That was changed years ago, but it would make sense based on how little you seem to know. Maybe you still think roots always hold for max duration.

[PatChapp]

No, you just reveal your lack of intelligence, once again missing the point. That point being, Lull can not simply be depended upon to move through an area freely or pull for free. It will sometimes be crit resisted, thus getting you nowhere. In areas where Lull is completely dependable, Root can often serve the same function. For example, 3 MOBs are standing next to each other. You pull by rooting one of them and then run back and root one of the others. Now they are completely separated, the same as Lull would have done.

Your fallacy here is idiotic on multiple levels, seeing as Root has other functions that Lull doesn't. Root is crowd control, lull does nothing on already aggroed mobs. Root is aggro management, forcing the MOB to hit the nearest melee player. Root prevents wanderers from pathing away, saving time from not having to chase them down.

And for the typical grouping situations we've been talking about in this thread, Lull is almost never needed over Root to begin with. The best ways and places to level don't require Lull, nor for grinding faction, nor for the majority of item/cash farming.



p99 is trying to recreate classic EQ. Thus, discussions about "the game" on p99 are often about Classic, and about reminiscing.



Yeah that makes total sense. What you say about it only being reliable on low blues also matches up with my memory. Harmony was WAY, WAY better than Lull (in outdoor tagged zones, of course). Lull was very risky in the places you actually needed it most, and not worth using to pull with over Root the majority of the time.

Lull is amazing,there is no better way to pull in indoor zones. With high cha 200+ critical resists don't happen to often,if you have a dwarf paladin with 50cha you can expect a lot of them. A couple simple item swaps can make a big difference.
Paladins are fun,if you ever want to try this game I recommend them.

[Jimjam]

Pft best way to pull is to grab 7 mins worth of mobs, slap evasive as you bring them in to camp, let CC sort out the mess while you take practically no damage for 3 mins, kill the tough mobs in those 3 mins, and then clear out the weaker mobs which will still do next to no damage even without evasive and then repeat when there are like 2 mobs left in camp.

[Swish]

Pft best way to pull is to grab 7 mins worth of mobs, slap evasive as you bring them in to camp, let CC sort out the mess while you take practically no damage for 3 mins, kill the tough mobs in those 3 mins, and then clear out the weaker mobs which will still do next to no damage even without evasive and then repeat when there are like 2 mobs left in camp.

High stress pulls are the most fun, for sure.

[Danth]

Lull can be used consistently to get though areas and pull on P99.

It certainly can, and it is. Regardless of how the spell operated in original EQ, on P1999 people can and do stack charisma and cast it 15, 20, 25 times in a row 'till it lands without getting a crit. It's definitely a significant component of enchanter solo power in particular--regardless of charm strength, things like Khelkor (minus his four buddies) would be iffy at best solo without reliable split pulling. Sure lull does crit fail once in awhile, but I am convinced it works better here than in original. So be it. No, I'm not going to try to prove it....I'm not trying to get anything nerfed.

Danth

[Jimjam]

High stress pulls are the most fun, for sure.

http://mgoblog.com/sites/mgoblog.com/files/images/UV_B933/simpsons-lionel-hutz1.jpg

[Zuranthium]

You still don't know the proper definition of fallacy.

Amazing how you always ignore everything and just use statements like this. :rolleyes:

Roots can break early, so it isn't like you can't get bad luck with root too lol. Is it possible you haven't played P99 since roots always held for max duration? Maybe you still think roots always hold for max duration.

Obviously I know they don't always hold for full duration (unless the level difference and/or resist debuff is large enough). But you can simply spam Root. With lull you only get a chance to use it before combat. Something "going wrong" with lull (either a critical resist or other adds) means the skill has lost all of its value. Whereas with root, you get to constantly reapply. Root is a much better ability, serving all the "utility" function that a group needs the majority of the time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Amazing how you always ignore everything and just use statements like this. :rolleyes:



Obviously I know they don't always hold for full duration (unless the level difference and/or resist debuff is large enough). But you can simply spam Root. With lull you only get a chance to use it before combat. Something "going wrong" with lull (either a critical resist or other adds) means the skill has lost all of its value. Whereas with root, you get to constantly reapply. Root is a much better ability.

You can spam lull too, since high CHA makes crit failure pretty minimal. And you can always root after a crit fail!

You just need to get more comfortable with lulling. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't make root better.

It's a silly argument to say "because lull can fail, it's bad", considering root can fail too.

Lull is useful even after a mob has agroed you btw. You can lull the mob and then memory blur it. Then it will reset, like the crit fail never even happened.

[Zuranthium]

Your inability to understand concepts never ceases.

1.) Root and Lull are separate abilities. We were discussing which one is the stronger ability. If you could only pick one to have in the game, which would be stronger? Root is the winner (and that's even with Lull being buffed on p99).

2.) Memory blur is yet another ability, which few classes have. Paladins do not have it. So no, they can't use Lull like that (and you're also assuming mem blur would work first try, and the other lull attempt). Your premise is incorrect to begin with, because you can't simply lull and memory blur multiple MOBs that are already beating on you. It's inherently going to be multiple MOBs, not just one, since the failed Lull means you are pulling extra.

3.) "You can always root after critical fail" means more mana has been spent and time has been lost (probably resulting in taking more damage).

4.) "Root can fail too", NO it can't fail in the same way, because you get to re-cast it immediately. Root breaking can be a setback, but likely a correctable one, and often meaning nothing except needing to spend 30 mana to re-root. Lull failing means you've completely lost the advantage you were trying to get.

5.) I never said Lull is strictly bad on p99. Rather, it's not much needed for typical groups with the existence of Root.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your inability to understand concepts never ceases.

1.) Root and Lull are separate abilities. We were discussing which one is the stronger ability. If you could only pick one to have in the game, which would be stronger? Root is the winner (and that's even with Lull being buffed on p99).

2.) Memory blur is yet another ability, which few classes have. Paladins do not have it. So no, they can't use Lull like that (and you're also assuming mem blur would work first try, and the other lull attempt). Your premise is incorrect to begin with, because you can't simply lull and memory blur multiple MOBs that are already beating on you. It's inherently going to be multiple MOBs, not just one, since the failed Lull means you are pulling extra.

3.) "You can always root after critical fail" means more mana has been spent and time has been lost (probably resulting in taking more damage).

4.) "Root can fail too", NO it can't fail in the same way, because you get to re-cast it immediately. Root breaking can be a setback, but likely a correctable one, and often meaning nothing except needing to spend 30 mana to re-root. Lull failing means you've completely lost the advantage you were trying to get.

5.) I never said Lull is strictly bad on p99. Rather, it's not much needed for typical groups with the existence of Root.

I understand what you are saying perfectly fine. You simply haven't lulled enough, which is why you are using root as a crutch. Both are great spells. The only person making a silly argument is yourself trying to convince people lull isn't that great on P99.

[Danth]

I understand what you are saying perfectly fine. You simply haven't lulled enough, which is why you are using root as a crutch. Both are great spells. The only person making a silly argument is yourself trying to convince people lull isn't that great on P99.

He's not wrong for his specific qualifier of normal groups. Lot of experience groups don't bother splitting at all these days. Folks who like the leveling game and spend a lot of time in that sort of grouping might thus devalue such abilities. Obviously splitting is a "little bit" more important when you're trying to pull something out of a 5-pull that, together, will kill you faster than you can cast the needed roots even if they'll all stick.

That being said, paladins definitely do use lull to get around places like sebilis and velketor on P99. I've played my own and watched other paladins pull with it for hours on end without a single fail. It surely makes that class more effective with than it would be without. Classic or not, that's the game we're logging on to. It's also not something that ranks ALL that high in my estimates of character power because between lulls and harmony it's not all that rare an ability, not to mention other methods of splitting like feign. Some means of splitting isn't really all that much less common than root itself is.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He's not wrong for his specific qualifier of normal groups. Lot of experience groups don't bother splitting at all these days. Folks who like the leveling game and spend a lot of time in that sort of grouping might thus devalue such abilities. Obviously splitting is a "little bit" more important when you're trying to pull something out of a 5-pull that, together, will kill you faster than you can cast the needed roots even if they'll all stick.

That being said, paladins definitely do use lull to get around places like sebilis and velketor on P99. I've played my own and watched other paladins pull with it for hours on end without a single fail. It surely makes that class more effective with than it would be without. Classic or not, that's the game we're logging on to. It's also not something that ranks ALL that high in my estimates of character power because between lulls and harmony it's not all that rare an ability, not to mention other methods of splitting like feign. Some means of splitting isn't really all that much less common than root itself is.

Danth

I understand that XP groups these days don't bother splitting. In a situation where groups can just pull in 5 mobs and mow them down, even root really isn't that necessary. Your group is just too good for the content. So it is a poor example, because neither spell is necessary.

Lull is necessary in harder areas where you cannot do that, and it superior to root when splitting. Both are great spells. Again, the only person arguing against any spell here is Z. He doesn't seem to like lull.

[Crede]

I understand that XP groups these days don't bother splitting. In a situation where groups can just pull in 5 mobs and mow them down, even root really isn't that necessary. Your group is just too good for the content. So it is a poor example, because neither spell is necessary.

Lull is necessary in harder areas where you cannot do that, and it superior to root when splitting. Both are great spells. Again, the only person arguing against any spell here is Z. He doesn't seem to like lull.

This is a really bad statement.

Just because a group can mow down mobs doesn’t mean root isn’t necessary lol. This could easily be a quick wipe without root. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times.

I have a 60 enc, root is good 95% of the time. Lull is more for niche stuff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is a really bad statement.

Just because a group can mow down mobs doesn’t mean root isn’t necessary lol. This could easily be a quick wipe without root. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times.

I have a 60 enc, root is good 95% of the time. Lull is more for niche stuff.

Its not a bad statement. Its true. I have been in plenty of xp groups where root wasn't necessary lol.

The niche stuff is what matters. if you can just use root for a situation it is an easy situation anyway.

[Zuranthium]

Why do you respond to literally every person by ignoring what they say and inserting some strawman statement?

If you pull 5 MOBs, splitting them up with Root is great. It doesn't matter if you *could* beat them without Rooting, the fact is you will save FAR more mana by using root, as you won't need to heal all that extra damage. The aggro management function of Root (force the MOB to always hit your tank) is also very powerful.

if you can just use root for a situation it is an easy situation anyway.

Wrong, you can split many difficult camps and handle difficult adds with Root, or use the Root + camp method to move through areas. The more roots in your party, the easier it becomes too. Coordinate everyone casting root at the same time on different targets to split a dense camp.

Lull is rarely needed to split a camp. It might make things a degree easier, but rarely is it *needed*. More for dungeon soloing than other modes of gameplay.

You simply haven't lulled enough

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do you respond to literally every person by ignoring what they say and inserting some strawman statement?


I am not doing that at all. You simply keep claiming "straw man" at everything you disagree with because it's easy. You need to learn what fallacies are.


If you pull 5 MOBs, splitting them up with Root is great. It doesn't matter if you *could* beat them without Rooting, the fact is you will save FAR more mana by using root, as you won't need to heal all that extra damage. The aggro management function of Root (force the MOB to always hit your tank) is also very powerful.


If you can pull 5 mobs, have them beat on you, and nothing bad happens, the encounter is easy.


Wrong, you can split many difficult camps and handle difficult adds with Root, or use the Root + camp method to move through areas. The more roots in your party, the easier it becomes too. Coordinate everyone casting root at the same time on different targets to split a dense camp.


If you can pull X mobs, have them beat on you, and nothing bad happens, the encounter is easy. If you can kite the mobs around while waiting for root to land, the encounter is easy. If you can root camp a mob consistently due to it having low resists, the encounter is easy.


Lull is rarely needed to split a camp. It might make things a degree easier, but rarely is it *needed*. More for dungeon soloing than other modes of gameplay.


Sure, most camps in EQ are indeed easy. Lull is there for the camps that matter, and is superior to root when the encounters are not so easy. Otherwise they can both be used for the same purpose just fine.

Again, I think both spells are great. You are the one who thinks lull isn't great, which is strange.

[Knuckle]

It's clearly Wizard. There are very little redeeming qualities to this class other than being raid DPS.

Horrible DPS in groups that is outpaced even by the knights. Mediocre soloing that is dependant upon SOME gear. Negligible utility other than mobilisation and evacuation.

They're so terribly designed, I have no idea what Verant was thinking.

They are great at quad kiting.

[Kich867]

They are great at quad kiting.

Are they? I'm currently 35 on my wizzie, looking forward to quadding, just got all the items for my Staff of Temporal Flux, but the vibe I get is that I either need someone to SoW me regularly or I need to buy SoW pots regularly to do it?

Or is it actually feasible to cast Bonds of Force on each mob, gather them up, maybe re-apply bonds of force, then aoe them down?

[Jimjam]

Wizards have a great advantage in that they can port around to scrounge for buffs before they spend 40 mins kiting ... if they get potg and have a few sow potions they can go a long time before having to scrounge more buffs. It really helps the quad and is worth the time. Also you get to chat and make acquaintances doing that.

That said, in 30s I just facetank nukespammed karana gnolls for scrolls. I'd port back to qeynos and then return to NK and run back to camp. Apparently the max xp from scrolls got nerfed, so maybe this is no longer an easy / lazy way to level. I put my nuke in spell slot 1 and hit an instacast clicky item between each nuke to make slot 1 refresh faster.

[Crede]

Are they? I'm currently 35 on my wizzie, looking forward to quadding, just got all the items for my Staff of Temporal Flux, but the vibe I get is that I either need someone to SoW me regularly or I need to buy SoW pots regularly to do it?

Or is it actually feasible to cast Bonds of Force on each mob, gather them up, maybe re-apply bonds of force, then aoe them down?

Get jboots. And donate for potg if you can afford it. Then just flux 4, gather, and bonds of force. Make sure you're putting your quad nuke in slot 1, jboots will help reset GCD so you only need to wait like a sec in between casting quads.

Enjoy the easy xp, wiz quadding was surprisingly enjoyable and relaxing.

[Kich867]

Wizards have a great advantage in that they can port around to scrounge for buffs before they spend 40 mins kiting ... if they get potg and have a few sow potions they can go a long time before having to scrounge more buffs. It really helps the quad and is worth the time. Also you get to chat and make acquaintances doing that.

That said, in 30s I just facetank nukespammed karana gnolls for scrolls. I'd port back to qeynos and then return to NK and run back to camp. Apparently the max xp from scrolls got nerfed, so maybe this is no longer an easy / lazy way to level. I put my nuke in spell slot 1 and hit an instacast clicky item between each nuke to make slot 1 refresh faster.

That's what I've been doing so far, scroll handins, they do _certainly_ feel worse than before but idk how much worse they are. I was still seeing the xp bar slightly move per hand-in at 35 which is a hell level, so they can't be _that_ bad.

Also, are there patch notes about the quest XP thing? I remember hearing that but looked over the patch notes and didn't see it called out anywhere, unless this happened forever ago.

[Raj]

Get jboots. And donate for potg if you can afford it. Then just flux 4, gather, and bonds of force. Make sure you're putting your quad nuke in slot 1, jboots will help reset GCD so you only need to wait like a sec in between casting quads.

Enjoy the easy xp, wiz quadding was surprisingly enjoyable and relaxing.

[Vexenu]

There are honestly no bad or underpowered classes in EQ, there are just bad classes for specific styles/preferences of play. Wizard might be objectively the "worst" class, but if you're the type of player who is endgame/raid focused but are kind of lazy and don't enjoy a lot of responsibility...congratulations, put on your robe and wizard hat (or maybe pick up a dagger - Rogue would be the second choice for such a player).

And Druids are also objectively pretty "bad", but if you're a casual player who just likes running around casually doing quests and buffing newbs and porting people... then you're not gonna be well served by an "overpowered" Enchanter.

You can get a lot of mileage out of every class. Just use them in their correct niche.

[Troxx]

There are honestly no bad or underpowered classes in EQ, there are just bad classes for specific styles/preferences of play. Wizard might be objectively the "worst" class, but if you're the type of player who is endgame/raid focused but are kind of lazy and don't enjoy a lot of responsibility...congratulations, put on your robe and wizard hat (or maybe pick up a dagger - Rogue would be the second choice for such a player).

And Druids are also objectively pretty "bad", but if you're a casual player who just likes running around casually doing quests and buffing newbs and porting people... then you're not gonna be well served by an "overpowered" Enchanter.

You can get a lot of mileage out of every class. Just use them in their correct niche.

True story. Druids and wizard get the most hate in high end groups and raids but they are convenient and powerful in their own right in certain levels of gameplay.

No class is globally worthless. Each has their own area of shine depending on level, content, scope and goal.

[Toxigen]

Get jboots. And donate for potg if you can afford it. Then just flux 4, gather, and bonds of force. Make sure you're putting your quad nuke in slot 1, jboots will help reset GCD so you only need to wait like a sec in between casting quads.

Enjoy the easy xp, wiz quadding was surprisingly enjoyable and relaxing.

this

also fwiw any solo druid that isnt charming is a shitter, l2p

[w1zard]

Every class has SOMETHING to bring to the table depending on the situation and objective.

That being said, many people on P99 consider classes that can kill the hardest mobs solo (esp deep in dungeons) or smallest group or can put out the most sustained DPS as the "best classes". By this measure, Wizard is probably most underpowered. All they really get is:

1) Quad kiting (druid can do about as well)
2) Ports (druid can do better except PoH/PoS)
3) TLs (especially to bind is valuable for raids)
4) Unresistable dragon/giant bane 2k dmg spell (rogues still better DPS)
5) Lures can land on raid bosses (not as valuable in velious era with >32khp)

With VP rend robe clicky they can do passable sustained DPS but good luck getting that before level 60.

Runner up is probably Ranger. If /pet attack weren't a thing then Ranger would be somewhat valuable for tracking. The mechanics of valuable outdoor targets like Quillmane are too well understood so don't need Ranger to spawn / find. They also can't harmony or SoW in dungeons so they're basically a rogue without backstab in many situations. Make great small group tanks up until early 50s in the typical outdoor crushbone -> unrest -> mistmoore -> CoM level progression though.

[w1zard]

True story. Druids and wizard get the most hate in high end groups and raids but they are convenient and powerful in their own right in certain levels of gameplay.

No class is globally worthless. Each has their own area of shine depending on level, content, scope and goal.

Druids POTG is insanely valuable long lasting mana regeneration. Their velious BP is a free 600 mana group regrowth. That's potentially 2490*6 = 14,940 health total heal over duration across 6 people. The small sustained hp regeneration across dozens of people all adds up especially taking into account mod rods and lich/twitch mechanics.

[PatChapp]

Every class has SOMETHING to bring to the table depending on the situation and objective.

That being said, many people on P99 consider classes that can kill the hardest mobs solo (esp deep in dungeons) or smallest group or can put out the most sustained DPS as the "best classes". By this measure, Wizard is probably most underpowered. All they really get is:

1) Quad kiting (druid can do about as well)
2) Ports (druid can do better except PoH/PoS)
3) TLs (especially to bind is valuable for raids)
4) Unresistable dragon/giant bane 2k dmg spell (rogues still better DPS)
5) Lures can land on raid bosses (not as valuable in velious era with >32khp)

With VP rend robe clicky they can do passable sustained DPS but good luck getting that before level 60.

Runner up is probably Ranger. If /pet attack weren't a thing then Ranger would be somewhat valuable for tracking. The mechanics of valuable outdoor targets like Quillmane are too well understood so don't need Ranger to spawn / find. They also can't harmony or SoW in dungeons so they're basically a rogue without backstab in many situations. Make great small group tanks up until early 50s in the typical outdoor crushbone -> unrest -> mistmoore -> CoM level progression though.


Quillmanes new mechanics are extremely annoying. Tracker is necessary

[Ripqozko]

Every class has SOMETHING to bring to the table depending on the situation and objective.

That being said, many people on P99 consider classes that can kill the hardest mobs solo (esp deep in dungeons) or smallest group or can put out the most sustained DPS as the "best classes". By this measure, Wizard is probably most underpowered. All they really get is:

1) Quad kiting (druid can do about as well)
2) Ports (druid can do better except PoH/PoS)
3) TLs (especially to bind is valuable for raids)
4) Unresistable dragon/giant bane 2k dmg spell (rogues still better DPS)
5) Lures can land on raid bosses (not as valuable in velious era with >32khp)

With VP rend robe clicky they can do passable sustained DPS but good luck getting that before level 60.

Runner up is probably Ranger. If /pet attack weren't a thing then Ranger would be somewhat valuable for tracking. The mechanics of valuable outdoor targets like Quillmane are too well understood so don't need Ranger to spawn / find. They also can't harmony or SoW in dungeons so they're basically a rogue without backstab in many situations. Make great small group tanks up until early 50s in the typical outdoor crushbone -> unrest -> mistmoore -> CoM level progression though.

Wizards outdps with banes,rangers discing is rogue dps or better, that’s why VQ brings like 80 wizards to vyemm.

/GU Hoshkar in 77s, 30k @385dps --- Ripqozko 6k @106dps --- Skew 5k @96dps --- Servicon 5k @84dps --- Knapsack 3k @59dps --- Trazzle 3k @58dps --- Orna 3k @45dps --- Naxi 2k @33dps --- Rikyr 1k @26dps --- Papaj 1k @21dps --- Nexii 0k @28dps

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps

Sorry if your rangers don’t

[Lemonhead]

I am monk currently leveling and my go to partner is almost always been druid. There's an animal somewhere and all of a sudden we got tier 1a.

[Ennewi]

Custom content:

A version of the deprived from Dark Souls. Beggar/madman appearance. No starting points, food, drink, note, or *weapon. Hybrid XP penalty. Monk weight AC penalty. Faction equal to evil race/class. 2 HP / 1 STA conversion. Agnostic only. Max begging skill. Halas starting city. Class guild masters are the various beggars (https://wiki.project1999.com/A_beggar) in Norrath.

[Tormmac]

this was the nice thing about red, a bunch of classes that suck on blue servers all of a sudden have alot of value on red like wizards and druids for example

[Ripqozko]

this was the nice thing about red, a bunch of classes that suck on blue servers all of a sudden have alot of value on red like wizards and druids for example

But red is bad at PvP, hope that helps

[Swish]

this was the nice thing about red, a bunch of classes that suck on blue servers all of a sudden have alot of value on red like wizards and druids for example

Certain spells too.

[Chris1479]

If you took ports away from Druids they would easily be the most worthless, but as it stands I would have to vote Bard. Problem with Bard is its a very high effort class to play and the vast majority of P99ers are lazy as fuck so most Bards are completely worthless. Its either thinking playing mana song afk is a great contribution to the group, or they charm unnecessarily making kill time go up, or they break enchanter mez, or they are constantly taking damage by doing more of the above bull shit, or they have no idea how to group because they have swarm kited for 50 levels...and are just overall a pain in the ass to be around in-game honestly.

Wasn't gonna bother commenting but as an Enchanter this speaks to me. The ratio of bad bards to good is probably 5-to-1 conservatively. When a Bard is invited to the group I usually expect the following:

- Bad pulls
- Semi-AFK
- Mobs being charmed/uncharmed every few seconds (this doesn't jive well with there being an enchanter in the group at all)

If you are lucky it'll be a Bard that swarm kites mobs in a circle while the group picks them off one by one... in this scenario the Bard is merely annoying *other* people in the zone rather than the group.

Some of the most obnoxious players I've met are bards. "I can pull bro watch" --> face pulls a room of mobs that have to be AE mezzed.

[Toxigen]

Wasn't gonna bother commenting but as an Enchanter this speaks to me. The ratio of bad bards to good is probably 5-to-1 conservatively. When a Bard is invited to the group I usually expect the following:

- Bad pulls
- Semi-AFK
- Mobs being charmed/uncharmed every few seconds (this doesn't jive well with there being an enchanter in the group at all)

If you are lucky it'll be a Bard that swarm kites mobs in a circle while the group picks them off one by one... in this scenario the Bard is merely annoying *other* people in the zone rather than the group.

Some of the most obnoxious players I've met are bards. "I can pull bro watch" --> face pulls a room of mobs that have to be AE mezzed.

To be fair, in typical groups on P99 a bard will shine far brighter when there is no enchanter.

I totally understand the lack of overlap with mezzes and the confusion on charms. A good bard with a good enchanter is basically like turning on "pull the entire zone god mode" but that is rarely the case. 95% of the time you're better off with just the enchanter.

I used to play like a total hooligan on my bard, but thats because I cut my teeth mastering enchanter first.

[greatdane]

Bards aren't that good in classic. You barely even need resists in most raid content pre-Kunark. Aside from the two dragons, most bosses have unresistable mechanics or just none. In groups, bards can only mez up to level 45 which excludes most of the top-tier camps in dungeons, and they only get that terrible single-pulse mana song at level 32 which is barely usable since it's not an actual buff that lingers. Their haste songs pre-50 are godawful, too. Bards are really not good until after classic. I wouldn't go so far as to call it the worst class, but I'd definitely place it in the bottom half of the hierarchy.

Let's take a generic group of upper 40s in LGuk. What do they get out of adding a bard? In all likelihood, mobs are being pulled and killed immediately upon respawn, so literally anybody can be the puller. It's unlikely that there's no enchanter or shaman in the group, but even if that's the case and the bard's haste song matters, it's like 20% all the way up until level 50. He won't be able to mez much of the trash in the high-end camps. He can't really tank due to having no serious way of holding aggro, he doesn't do any meaningful DPS, the classic mana song is pretty much useless except during downtime when the bard can just stand there and spam it exclusively. There's just kind of no reason to have a bard in the group at all. The songs are so low-impact and the classic dungeons are so mob-scarce and compact that the role of puller is barely a thing.

[Ennewi]

Bards aren't that good in classic. You barely even need resists in most raid content pre-Kunark. Aside from the two dragons, most bosses have unresistable mechanics or just none. In groups, bards can only mez up to level 45 which excludes most of the top-tier camps in dungeons, and they only get that terrible single-pulse mana song at level 32 which is barely usable since it's not an actual buff that lingers. Their haste songs pre-50 are godawful, too. Bards are really not good until after classic. I wouldn't go so far as to call it the worst class, but I'd definitely place it in the bottom half of the hierarchy.

Let's take a generic group of upper 40s in LGuk. What do they get out of adding a bard? In all likelihood, mobs are being pulled and killed immediately upon respawn, so literally anybody can be the puller. It's unlikely that there's no enchanter or shaman in the group, but even if that's the case and the bard's haste song matters, it's like 20% all the way up until level 50. He won't be able to mez much of the trash in the high-end camps. He can't really tank due to having no serious way of holding aggro, he doesn't do any meaningful DPS, the classic mana song is pretty much useless except during downtime when the bard can just stand there and spam it exclusively. There's just kind of no reason to have a bard in the group at all. The songs are so low-impact and the classic dungeons are so mob-scarce and compact that the role of puller is barely a thing.

Left out jig o' vigor which is easy to forget since the need for zings is almost nonexistent on p99, but with classic being specified it deserves a mention. Not that other classes couldn't restore stamina, but one being able to do it on an endless loop had to be valuable.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-89.html

Nirgon
10-16-2014, 03:33 PM
I agree with this much for swimming, I don't think it made you run out of air:

http://www.eqcleric.com/archive/index.php/t-10772.html

Kedge raids. Swiming takes stamina. Underwater you are constantly swiming. If you run out of stamina you STOP moving. At all. Clerics and Enchanters used to get /tells for "Zing!" a LOT. (Switch to endurance changed this, so far as I know you can MOVE and swim if you have zero endurance.)


Characters under 100 stamina:

Movement speed and stats(str/agi I think) dropped when the old stamina bar was depleted, though this only affected people with <100 STA (buffed).


I definitely remember having to keep just a PINCH of yellow in my bar chasing someone, this would explain it. Move speed / stats / hit rate when out of stam looks to be correct, needs more proof.



Attack Speed:
http://www.eqcleric.com/archive/index.php/t-4498.html

When your stamina drops all the way down, you become fatigued and with less than 100 stamina you are affecteed by it and your attack speed drops, fairly noticably. OVer 100 in stamina it's really pointless to worry with though as there are no ill affects of running out of stamina, aside that you can't jump anymore if you are trying to flee.


Can't wait for 100 sta (being a HEARTY adventurer) being such a valuable thing to have :)

IMMERSIVE

Danth
10-16-2014, 04:04 PM
Calling it endurance isn't classic.

I can't speak for dual wield classes, but as a Paladin, wielding a weapon under or equal to 10 weight never caused the yellow bar to budge, not even with haste. Weapons over 10 weight (Axe of the Iron Back, Wurmslayer, etc) caused the bar to gradually run out. Running out caused slower running, an inability to jump, and IIRC a stat hit. Might've slowed attack rate too; I never timed it. I can't vouch for how much the stat drain was...the only situations where I ran out of stamina tended to be emergencies where carefully checking stats wasn't a high priority. Having 100 or better stamina meant the only negative effect of running out was an inability to jump.

Note that players didn't stack stamina so heavily in those days because the HP returns from it sucked. Hence lots of melees, even some tanks, ran around with less than 100. As a side note, the Titanium client gives us more HP from stamina than I recall getting historically....I think it uses a more modern multiplier (stamina was improved as a stat in the post-classic era, possibly more than once). Don't much care enough to look up anything to confirm or refute that memory.

Dual wield classes seemed to complain about running out of stamina more, and tended to ask for a "zing" (remember that?) with some regularity, so it seemed to affect them more than the non-dual-wield melee'ers. I don't know what their weight limit was. Is there anyone on this board who can remember dual-wielding Yaks? Those were 4.5 weight each.

When P1999 first opened there was a badly implemented pseudo stamina drain active. It was ridiculously excessive and almost intolerable. They couldn't seem to get it working in a remotely classic manner so eventually they just turned it off. Apparently the massive (and varying per character) values for endurance used by the Titanium client makes it hard to simulate classic-era stamina drain.

Danth

Pudge
10-16-2014, 08:23 PM
When you ran out of stamina in the water.... You sank. You couldn't swim anymore, and that's why losing your stamina meant you drowned.

Each melee swing took some stamina, and the heavier the weapon the more it took. Weaps like wurmslayer weren't as good as they are right now because it weighs so much.

Also classic, hymn of restoration/sos + lute, still good when grouped with necros and shamans though less so since they only get lich and canni 2. Include negative MR from fufil's and resist songs that double as dmg shields? All of it nowhere near as good as in Kunark/Velious but still.

[Toxigen]

The thing about bard in classic is you get to be 50 when Kunark drops.

Fire up the swarm and you're now in the first groups to go farm sebilis and shit.

[PatChapp]

Left out jig o' vigor which is easy to forget since the need for zings is almost nonexistent on p99, but with classic being specified it deserves a mention. Not that other classes couldn't restore stamina, but one being able to do it on an endless loop had to be valuable.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-89.html







Also classic, hymn of restoration/sos + lute, still good when grouped with necros and shamans though less so since they only get lich and canni 2. Include negative MR from fufil's and resist songs that double as dmg shields? All of it nowhere near as good as in Kunark/Velious but still.
Canni 2 is kunark era

[Ennewi]

Canni 2 is kunark era

Yeah typo. More than a few threads debating about whether 2nd version was even worth questing/buying, so guessing the difference is negligible.

[Karanis]

...that terrible single-pulse mana song at level 32 which is barely usable since it's not an actual buff that lingers.

Tell me you've never been a good bard without telling me you've never been a good bard.

The mana you can provide a caster group even WITHOUT cantana, just pulses, is pretty immense.

[greatdane]

Tell me you've never been a good bard without telling me you've never been a good bard.

The mana you can provide a caster group even WITHOUT cantana, just pulses, is pretty immense.

Yes, if all you do is stand there and chain-cast Cassindra's Chorus of Clarity over and over, in which case your sole contribution to the group is some mana regen. You will be doing literally nothing else because it's not a buff song, it's a single pulse of 5-7 mana. No pulling, no haste song, no CC, just a glorified mana totem. That is not worthy of a spot in a group.

I love it when some imbecile comes in with the "haha ur bad at the game" and then vomits up some theoretical nonsense that nobody actually does because it isn't a functional way to play the game. But hey, if you want a bard who just stands there chain-casting mana song at all times, and you actually think that's what qualifies as a good bard, then knock yourself out.

But you're not the one who should be telling people they're bad at Everquest.

[Trelaboon]

Druid by far. Honestly have no idea how that class is so popular. They have some niche areas that they can do well, but those are few and far between.

[Gloomlord]

Yes, if all you do is stand there and chain-cast Cassindra's Chorus of Clarity over and over, in which case your sole contribution to the group is some mana regen. You will be doing literally nothing else because it's not a buff song, it's a single pulse of 5-7 mana. No pulling, no haste song, no CC, just a glorified mana totem. That is not worthy of a spot in a group.

I love it when some imbecile comes in with the "haha ur bad at the game" and then vomits up some theoretical nonsense that nobody actually does because it isn't a functional way to play the game. But hey, if you want a bard who just stands there chain-casting mana song at all times, and you actually think that's what qualifies as a good bard, then knock yourself out.

But you're not the one who should be telling people they're bad at Everquest.

Yeah, Bards are kind of mediocre before they get Cantata.

[Swish]

Druid by far. Honestly have no idea how that class is so popular. They have some niche areas that they can do well, but those are few and far between.

I like groups. I have a 52 druid.

I can't get a group without a lot of hard work/waiting lol

[sajbert]

Druid by far. Honestly have no idea how that class is so popular. They have some niche areas that they can do well, but those are few and far between.

Raid in comfort with ports and only really potg and charm animal to work with. Solo level with ease. Easy epic. Can farm stuff like PoM and SG and some try stuff like Chardok or SolB for a bit of a challenge. You can also powerlevel and port. Druid is a subosr choice for groups anyplace where there isn’t an animal, that’s it. Weakest class? Hah, no.

[Jimjam]

Raid in comfort with ports and only really potg and charm animal to work with. Solo level with ease. Easy epic. Can farm stuff like PoM and SG and some try stuff like Chardok or SolB for a bit of a challenge. You can also powerlevel and port. Druid is a subosr choice for groups anyplace where there isn’t an animal, that’s it. Weakest class? Hah, no.

Druids are good for lazy bottom feeding duos too. A melee in their mid 50s with any druid in xp range only casting skin / str / regen / ds can pretty much chain kill without breaks.

Having a little druid buddy 2/3 your level following you around is pretty handy.

So yea, it seems druid partner well with characters they outlevel or underlevel, but perhaps not quite so well for characters whose level they match.

[greatdane]

Druid by far. Honestly have no idea how that class is so popular. They have some niche areas that they can do well, but those are few and far between.

It's a super convenient class if you don't care about doing any particular endgame stuff. It has everything a casual player could dream of. Effortless travel, root and snare, heals, nukes, dots, buffs, able to function in groups, pretty good solo, can farm money... if it isn't important to you that your character is particularly good at anything, druid is perfect. It's the ideal class for seeing the sights and smelling the roses. Also an excellent moneymaking alt in classic where any remotely profitable content will be permacamped 24/7/365, but the porting business is always open to anyone and everyone.

[Toxigen]

Big difference between good and bad druids.

Bigly.

[Ripqozko]

Big difference between good and bad druids.

Bigly.

They bring almost nothing to a raid, less you have that one off that will train up or hub tag or play goaltender , but any pet class can do that. The offheals is nice but they can’t keep up. They are pointless in vp minus hosh that every fire caster can hit too. I guess in fear prob their best raid least they can charm gorillas . I don’t care what they can solo at 60, if they can do it enchanter prob can too.

[Toxigen]

They bring almost nothing to a raid, less you have that one off that will train up or hub tag or play goaltender , but any pet class can do that. The offheals is nice but they can’t keep up. They are pointless in vp minus hosh that every fire caster can hit too. I guess in fear prob their best raid least they can charm gorillas . I don’t care what they can solo at 60, if they can do it enchanter prob can too.

Wolf charms for AoW / KT

Vyemm heals

Gore

Melee spot heals

I can go on...but a good, active druid is much more than a porting / potg bot.

Talking strictly raiding. They're basically garbage for plat farm (just plat farm via dkp).

[Ripqozko]

Wolf charms for AoW / KT

Vyemm heals

Gore

Melee spot heals

I can go on...but a good, active druid is much more than a porting / potg bot.

Talking strictly raiding. They're basically garbage for plat farm (just plat farm via dkp).

Enchanter can do, anyone can do Same heals on vyemm, any fire caster can on gore even mage, they can't keep up on spot heals over time. I can keep going on and on too.

[drackgon]

Id say druids are still way more vauable to have in classic. Like someone said Pofear they can kite/Harmony/Charm/Snare charm mobs.

Classic Warriors just suck. Worst class in game in classic. Until they have Disc Knights just do it better. Even monk tanks are better. Mainly tanked via procs or root. Where knights have snap agro, self heals etc, can lull or FD pull, buffs, CCs(stuns,snare,fear).. Warriors just suck compared to them.

So why are yall so hell bent on druids as worst?

Side note.. Will say if warrior gets haste sword from Fear.. They do become dmg machines for a short while. Wolvars warrior in kingdom did really nice DPS.. but thats like only way to make warriors decent pre kunark.

[Jimjam]

They bring almost nothing to a raid, less you have that one off that will train up or hub tag or play goaltender , but any pet class can do that. The offheals is nice but they can’t keep up. They are pointless in vp minus hosh that every fire caster can hit too. I guess in fear prob their best raid least they can charm gorillas . I don’t care what they can solo at 60, if they can do it enchanter prob can too.

Druids literally bring the raid to the raid...

[Ripqozko]

Druids literally bring the raid to the raid...

Nope wizards TL

[Jimjam]

Nope wizards TL

I mean TL is 90% useful just because of an exploit of a legacy item. Brad is shaking his head.

[Gloomlord]

I think the class with the least number of redeeming qualities is easily Wizard.

Extremely boring? Check.

Worst group class in the game? Check.

Need the most gear of any caster to solo at a mediocre level? Check.

Worse than a Druid at porting for money? Check.

It's a miracle anyone even plays this crappy class.

[Trexller]

Welcome to EverQuest!
You have entered West Commonlands.
GUILD MOTD: Officer - Sky Raid Tonight, bring a bag or come re-corpse your keys if you can't make the raid.

Wizards:

https://i.imgur.com/MGqtjh1.jpg

[Ripqozko]

I think the class with the least number of redeeming qualities is easily Wizard.

Extremely boring? Check.

Worst group class in the game? Check.

Need the most gear of any caster to solo at a mediocre level? Check.

Worse than a Druid at porting for money? Check.

It's a miracle anyone even plays this crappy class.

i see you have never been to VP, thanks

[Gloomlord]

Who gives a crap about their raid capabilities, and their ability to get people to the planes?

In everything else, they're horrible.

[Ripqozko]

Who gives a crap about their raid capabilities, and their ability to get people to the planes?

In everything else, they're horrible.

sorry you dont got raid

[fortior]

tl to bind is the strongest spell in the game after bind affinity

[Keebz]

Staff of Temperate Flux

[Ennewi]

Who gives a crap about their raid capabilities, and their ability to get people to the planes?

Raid guilds many, many years into Velious; would be the case even more so if the rule changed from fte to whoever dealt the most damage. Ignoring their other raid contributions, for group content they have stuns and roots which are commonly found in spellbooks but no less necessary. Gravity flux also once saw a lot of use in places like the Hole after first dropdown, in order for melees to get back up and out the entrance, before people started using the zoneout pads more frequently.

[Swish]

I remember on red seeing a video of a wiz who gfluxed up to the ledge above the zone in/zone out wall area and was dropping nukes. The group snare is handy too.

Wizards on red are further up the chain.

(Swish said red! reeeeee)

[Gustoo]

I enjoy wizards a lot. Sitting to med is a bummer but adequate CC and atomic holocaust is a cool combo.

Worst class is hybrids as has always been traditionally known.

But all classes are great from some angles.