Pal VS SK end game

[Beinen]

Good morning,

I was curious what are the differences in manner of play style at the end game for these two classes. I know paladins can heal buff and rez. SK can snare, self heal, FD. What are their roles in raids and how is playing them different? Does one have a greater need than the other? Is one easier to gear? Does one solo better? Anything else I don't know i don't know?

Thank you!

[PatChapp]

They off tank and wrangle pets on raids, no great distinction between them in that regard.
Play what you think you'll enjoy

[Beinen]

Precisely what I’m looking to do. Trying to size up which I’d enjoy more. Do either of them off-tank better than the other?

[remen]

His advice is horribly wrong. When it comes to raids, SK are considered basically useless whereas paladins are crucial for two key reasons.

1) Soulfires = 5 charge instant click complete heal. Key in raid situations for obvious reasons that an instant click CH has value

2) Divine Strength = 200hp buff that stacks with all other buffs. Every tank on a raid loves a paladin, and sometimes that extra 200hp is the difference between a CH landing and your MT dying

[bricke75]

I prefer SK because with invis to undead, invis and FD, you can pretty much get to anywhere in the game solo.

If you are looking to raid tank, go PAL. If you want more solo ability, go SK.

[remen]

Good morning,

I was curious what are the differences in manner of play style at the end game for these two classes. I know paladins can heal buff and rez. SK can snare, self heal, FD. What are their roles in raids and how is playing them different? Does one have a greater need than the other? Is one easier to gear? Does one solo better? Anything else I don't know i don't know?

Thank you!

As for gearing, they are basically equal, very few items are only useable by one class. For soloing leveling, the play styles are very different. Shadow Knight will do a lot more fear kiting with snare, or go toe-to-toe with Lifetaps (less efficient). FD provides nice utility of course and can suit a player that likes that safety net.

Paladin will solo toe to toe and excel vs. casters by using stuns and against undead. They can break camps with calm spells and CC with roots. Self heals are nice, and if you can get Deepwater helm or Deepwater breastplate, those provide significant manna free heels and change the way you can solo efficiently.

I soloed both classes to 60 and personally found the Paladin to be more fun. Both can be enjoyable however, so think about what style and toolkit appeals the most to you!

[remen]

Oh, one last thing I would say for raids, Shadow Knight life taps do not land on raid bosses, where as Paladin self heals and group heals will always be helpful when you are fighting mobs that AOE

[Beinen]

As for gearing, they are basically equal, very few items are only useable by one class. For soloing leveling, the play styles are very different. Shadow Knight will do a lot more fear kiting with snare, or go toe-to-toe with Lifetaps (less efficient). FD provides nice utility of course and can suit a player that likes that safety net.

Paladin will solo toe to toe and excel vs. casters by using stuns and against undead. They can break camps with calm spells and CC with roots. Self heals are nice, and if you can get Deepwater helm or Deepwater breastplate, those provide significant manna free heels and change the way you can solo efficiently.

I soloed both classes to 60 and personally found the Paladin to be more fun. Both can be enjoyable however, so think about what style and toolkit appeals the most to you!

I appreciate this insight.

[Beinen]

Thank you everyone for their input. I personally enjoy both play styles but only have time for one. I appreciate your time.

[Allishia]

Paladin /nod.

Divine strength please when you hit 60 :)

[Jimjam]

SKs wipe raids, Paladins rescue them.

[bomaroast]

At raids they're both just warm bodies to fill groups, basically useless. They're fine in groups and solo though.

Once you get into the PoP to the Dragons era knights find a lot of use as off-tanks and trash-tanks, but from Classic - Velious they're just group tanks.

[Chardy]

Pal/SK pretty much do all of the NToV trash tanking (minus flurries) due to snap agro. Pal/SK are also usually the main tanks for VP dragons/Trak, also because of snap agro.

SK's good for ToV/VP trainups too.
Pal good for DA training/engage/Soulfire FTE engages in highly contested situations.

So, no, not warm bodies to fill groups, unless the player is a warm body.

[Loadsamoney]

Paladins also have a much, much easier Epic to complete than SK. IC isn't the hardest Epic to finish, but it's much more bottlenecked than Pally's FD.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you want to raid, go Paladin. They are used more often than Shadowknights. Shadowknights are sadly the worst raid class in the game. Not saying they are never used, and not saying there aren't some great raiding Shadowknights. But overall Shadowknights bring little to the table in a raid.

For grouping, both are great choices.

For soloing, it depends on what you are doing. SK's are better whenever you can fear kite, and when using FD is advantageous. Paladins are better when fighting mobs that cannot be feared, they can face tank better due to healing.

[Loadsamoney]

If you want to raid, go Paladin. They are used more often than Shadowknights. Shadowknights are sadly the worst raid class in the game. Not saying they are never used, and not saying there aren't some great raiding Shadowknights. But overall Shadowknights bring little to the table in a raid.

For grouping, both are great choices.

For soloing, it depends on what you are doing. SK's are better whenever you can fear kite, and when using FD is advantageous. Paladins are better when fighting mobs that cannot be feared, they can face tank better due to healing.

Which one fights undead better? I thought only Paladins and Clerics were the ones with Undead-only nukes (and Ghoulbane).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Which one fights undead better? I thought only Paladins and Clerics were the ones with Undead-only nukes (and Ghoulbane).

SK's get plenty of Undead-only spells too. For example, SK's get Undead lulls. Not as good as a Paladin, but this allows us to fight quite well in Howling Stones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmDvk3udrhI Here is a video of me in Howling Stones.

SK's get the Undead fear, which is much cheaper mana-wise than regular fear. It also has a faster cast.

SK's also get Undead nukes. But generally speaking Undead nukes are not very mana-efficient on Hybrids. It's better to just do damage with melee/pet and fear kite to prevent damage.

SK's get Invis vs. Undead too.

I don't think there is really a clear winner as to who fights undead better. Ghoulbane isn't a very good weapon later on, and you can get https://wiki.project1999.com/Engraved_Di%27Zok_Deathbringer which is 100% better and both classes can use it.

[Loadsamoney]

SK's also get Undead nukes. But generally speaking Undead nukes are not very mana-efficient on Hybrids. It's better to just do damage with melee/pet and fear kite to prevent damage.



That's an option for an SK, but Paladins don't get a pet, or any mana-efficient DoT's to supplement their melee. Mixing in nukes with their melee is their only means of increasing their DPS against Undead.

So it's either that, or just slowly chip away at the mob and save all your mana for heals.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's an option for an SK, but Paladins don't get a pet, or any mana-efficient DoT's to supplement their melee. Mixing in nukes with their melee is their only means of increasing their DPS against Undead.

So it's either that, or just slowly chip away at the mob and save all your mana for heals.

True, nukes are probably a bit better for Paladins. But yeah as long as Undead can be fear kited, there's little reason to use your Undead Nuke on an SK. Honestly I only use the Undead Nuke to increase Evocation lol, since it is one of the only spells a Shadowknight gets that has Evocation.

Both SK's and Paladins get the same Undead Nukes, so they are equal in that sense.

[Keebz]

SKs aren't bad at raiding. They are just not super useful when it comes time to kill the x00,000+ hp Velious dragon, as they can't tank the hardest hitting mobs and do less DPS than a poorly geared rogue. This can be said about a lot of classes though. Over SKs, Paladins do have the edge in that scenario because they can Soulfire and LH (read: complete heal) people during a fight. Similarly, however, they aren't super useful in large numbers as they do wet noodle DPS. Both classes are the desirable as a tank over a warrior when the mob doesn't hit super hard, however, because they initiate and maintain aggro easier than a warrior. In modern raiding, there is a lot of trash to clear, so knights are very welcome during this phase.

What SKs can do over Paladins is tag and flop all day, which makes them great for pulling in the planes (snare/fear is also very useful in PoF) and useful for certain pulls elsewhere. Additionally, they can use their pet to do train outs, which is kind of a reverse pull of sorts. Both of these roles are a little more niche and a little more involved than clicking a CH on a guy, so it takes some practice/knowledge to be useful. Suffice to say if you just wanna sit in camp and tank things or exclusively log in to kill the x00,000+ hp velious dragon, get thee to a paladin or more likely warrior.

[Loadsamoney]

True, nukes are probably a bit better for Paladins. But yeah as long as Undead can be fear kited, there's little reason to use your Undead Nuke on an SK. Honestly I only use the Undead Nuke to increase Evocation lol, since it is one of the only spells a Shadowknight gets that has Evocation.

Both SK's and Paladins get the same Undead Nukes, so they are equal in that sense.

Also, this is speaking from personal experience since I use this one zone for the bulk of my characters leveling career, but from 20-50 my Pally's Ghoulbane was an absolute monster against Paineel guards. It slaughtered them by the score, left and right. I stayed until 51, when the Guard Captain himself no longer gave tenable experience.

Whether Ghoulbane continues to outperform Sword of the Morning after 50 is another matter though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also, this is speaking from personal experience since I use this one zone for the bulk of my characters leveling career, but from 20-50 my Pally's Ghoulbane was an absolute monster against Paineel guards. It slaughtered them by the score, left and right. I stayed until 51, when the Guard Captain himself no longer gave tenable experience.

Whether Ghoulbane continues to outperform Sword of the Morning after 50 is another matter though.

Yes, if you are talking about playing at a low level, Ghoulbane is great. But it falls off once you get 50+. The ratio on the weapon isn't great, and the nuke proc is less impactful at higher levels.

I do agree Paladins are better at fighting Undead at low levels with a Ghoulbane when compared to Shadowknights. But you lose that advantage as you level up and get better weapons.

[socialist]

Their core role is the same: tanking. They perform this more or less the same in raids, there's no meaningful difference between them in terms of survivability and aggro generation. There is a difference during the leveling process where the paladin suffers from getting their first stun at level 30 and the next at 49, and having to use the godawful Flash of Light a lot while shadowknights have smooth sailing from start to finish; but once you're at the endgame, both are equal tanks. For a level 27 exp group, SK is a much, much better tank than paladin, but you did put 'endgame' in the title.

Utility is where they differ. Paladins bring a useful buff (if not necessarily high-impact) and Soulfire, as well as situational emergency healing. Shadowknights bring the ability to help pulling (some guilds never use this, others do) and considerably better DPS when they don't need to tank. The latter isn't terribly important, but as a knight, you'll often have no other duty than witlessly swinging at a mob's ass and it's kind of nice to be able to do as much damage as possible. It's not that SK DPS is way higher than paladin, but it is higher. Still kinda low, though.

Soloing is decidedly in the SK's favor. While a very well-geared paladin can do some worthwhile soloing in select places, it's not much and it's barely worth the effort. SKs can fear kite, even in some dungeons, and it's genuinely pretty decent. Doesn't reach the heights of necros and chanters, but it's good enough to be worth doing if you can't find a group or don't want to commit to one. In my opinion, the endgame of EQ consists of raiding and soloing, so in my mind, it does matter how good a class is at soloing. Why else are you getting all that awesome gear? To look good in EC? SKs can solo some pretty impressive stuff, like non-raid dragons and such, while paladins are just kinda bleh, maybe you can facegrind skeletons in Howling Stones with full raid gear.

And then there's the luxury factor. Paladin gets a 90% rez, which is super convenient once you have it, but you get it at level 59 when you're almost done with leveling and it becomes more of a thing you can offer to other people than something that helps you significantly. It's nice to have in groups, but if you're looking for endgame input, how much are you still grouping? Having healing spells is very nice when you're just running around doing random shit, because while an SK has some options for recovery with lifetaps, it doesn't hold a candle to the ability to just heal yourself directly. SKs have feign death and instant invis, as well as both regular invis and IVU, which is a huge benefit for casually dicking around in the afternoon when nothing's going on. FD really is the best soloing ability in the game by far.

At the end of the day, if a raid had none of either class and could pick only one for their raid, they'd take a paladin just for Divine Strength. If there's already a paladin in the raid to cover that, I think SKs are better simply because they do have the ability to assist with pulling. They make great taggers and can temporarily take over if all the monks are dead and awaiting rez, just to keep things moving along. The ability to offtank a flurry drake and then smoothly deliver the aggro over to a warrior at any time is very convenient. Paladin is only better if there aren't any already there. In theory, you could bring multiple paladins who all brought a fully charged Soulfire along, but is this a thing that ever actually happens? SKs stack better, even if neither class is one that people will want multiples of in any situation.

SK pulling is underrated. Some guilds don't bother to use it, and it isn't necessary for some cutting-edge guild that has cleared everything a million times; but for a raid that isn't just doing a routine clear of content they know in and out, a puller with three FDs and a pet and instant invis definitely has advantages in certain places. There are cases where an SK is the best puller for a given encounter, it's just that people are lazy and have monks do it, and top guilds always have veteran monks with prayer beads and whatnot. For a less seasoned guild, it's genuinely good to have one or two SKs. There's also value in seamlessly tagging a mob out of a kited swarm, bringing it to the warrior, and feigning it off before running out to get the next. But it is a bit niche, it's not something you use everywhere.

[Naethyn]

SK is good at vp pulls, tanking non flurry ntov trash / halls of testing, and has low competition for upgrades on raids.

Pal is good at soulfire saving raids, casting one of the best hp buffs in the game (divine strength), tanking non flurry ntov trash / halls of testing, and has low competition for upgrades on raids.

[Elizondo]

Paladin for sure

Better soloers too

[bricke75]

Paladin for sure

Better soloers too

I've never seen a paladin solo'ing named in Chardok. Just saying.

[Crede]

I've never seen a paladin solo'ing named in Chardok. Just saying.

That’s situational. It really depends on whether or not FD is needed. Pally will dungeon crawl much more effectively and they are better suited to handle most situations. I’d give the pally the edge 95% of the time.

[Tunabros]

paladins more useful in raids

can i have a DS pls =D

[Toxigen]

its paladood

a soulfire is more valuable than an army of SKs

[Jibartik]

Paladin, but a quest to wear and use SK Armor and weapons.

[Naethyn]

Fashion to consideration. Paladin's cannot get the gold human scale armor set from velious. Human shadowknights and warriors can. The paladin velious scale set is from plane of hate and it is blue.

[reebz]

I used to pull all of VP on an SK and preferred it over a monk because of CoS. Kind of specific but I probs wasn't going to do that on a paladin. I'm sure there are ways you can be useful pulling In Velious but If your playing on blue it's really just easier to sit with the other 80 people and wait for someone else to do all the work. So either works really!

[oldschoolguy]

SK better soloer with fear kite
Paladin much easier epic and cool heals

difference is how you wish to play. both pretty cool.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

SK better soloer with fear kite
Paladin much easier epic and cool heals

difference is how you wish to play. both pretty cool.

It just depends on what you want to solo. SK is better at soloing anything that can be fear kited, as that is more efficient.

Paladins are better at soloing anything that must be face tanked, due to their healing.

Both are cool I agree!

[Pint]

I find that I can solo a lot of cool stuff as a paladin. I imagine it's on par with any sk but getting in and out of places is a different story. Also with the soulfire nerf I'd imagine paladins can solo a number of things that sks no longer can.

[mattydef]

They will both off tank mobs in raids. SK can help pull if needed, Paladin can soul fire and heal groups in AOE fights. Paladin is overall more useful in both raids and groups

[Veleria]

From my experience, If you have both at 60 have the paladin DS on the Sk and have the SK tank. If you only have one the Pally is a bit stronger because of the HP buff. Ultimately they are so close no one can tell the difference. I main an SK in raids and I honestly feel I have better options for snap aggro because of shorter cast times but after the snap, it's almost no difference. both classes can use their utility to help raids in different ways.

[mattydef]

I honestly feel I have better options for snap aggro because of shorter cast times
Disease Cloud, Shadow Vortex, Blind and Stun are all 1.5 second cast times

[Ennewi]

The piercing skill for velious-era shadow knights maxes out at 209 (though it ought to be 210 (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339897)), which is slightly lower than the 225 skill that paladins enjoy. Nbd though since none of the best 1h/2h knight weapons are piercers, but still worth considering when beforehand.

[Naethyn]

Wow is that true? Because weapon skill matters a ton for dps and it would explain why paladins consistently parse higher at bis. Is it true that paladins have more piercing skill than even warriors?

[Ennewi]

Wow is that true? Because weapon skill matters a ton for dps and it would explain why paladins consistently parse higher at bis. Is it true that paladins have more piercing skill than even warriors?

https://i.imgur.com/cqDpw6Q.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jWmjqQD.jpg

[mattydef]

The piercing skill is a bigger deal than it seems since that makes both Lance of Thunder (52/46) and Great Spear of Dawn (53/46) more viable for paladins, and those two are the most accessible high end 2 handed weapons for knights.

[Ennewi]

The piercing skill is a bigger deal than it seems since that makes both Lance of Thunder (52/46) and Great Spear of Dawn (53/46) more viable for paladins, and those two are the most accessible high end 2 handed weapons for knights.

True and the added delay doesn't hurt either. Worth mentioning for sure, but still shouldn't have the expectation of being super high on the charts, especially when DPS are asking for spot heals versus damage shields and AEs.

Warriors max out at 240 piercing skill according to the wiki. If correct, that's 15 points higher than paladins and 30/31 points higher than shadow knights.

[Jimjam]

Wow is that true? Because weapon skill matters a ton for dps and it would explain why paladins consistently parse higher at bis. Is it true that paladins have more piercing skill than even warriors?

It’s an interesting one as Paladin’s didn’t have piercing skill at all (shanking villains ain’t noble) until lances came around (and tbh lances without horses make zero sense, neither does them being 2hp). So some dev just stuck what they thought would be a sensible value while ignoring previous design philosophy that plate melees somewhat shun practice of scabbiness.

I guess paladins and rogues not having overlap in piercing weapons, and lances being noble, justified paladins having a boosted pierce skill?

[Ennewi]

Considering that both of the sk parent classes can equip and skill up with piercing weapons, and one of the pal classes cannot, it would have made more sense to give sks the edge.

[Pint]

Disease Cloud, Shadow Vortex, Blind and Stun are all 1.5 second cast times

You can't chain cast stun and blind is typically for lower level paladins. SK is arguably the better snap aggro but the difference is small

[Allishia]

Wow is that true? Because weapon skill matters a ton for dps and it would explain why paladins consistently parse higher at bis. Is it true that paladins have more piercing skill than even warriors?

Pretty sure war is 240. But I'm at work so can't really check :p

[mattydef]

You can't chain cast stun and blind is typically for lower level paladins. SK is arguably the better snap aggro but the difference is small

You can't chain cast DC either. Weaving DC and SV may possibly end up beating out spamming blind with the occasional stun though, but even so, it'll never make a difference in a group/raid scenario unless the SK/Paladin are literally fighting for agro against each other for some odd reason. I'm curious why you think blind is for lower level paladins though since I personally tend to use that the most to generate threat at 59.

[Danth]

You can't chain cast DC either. Weaving DC and SV may possibly end up beating out spamming blind with the occasional stun though, but even so, it'll never make a difference in a group/raid scenario unless the SK/Paladin are literally fighting for agro against each other for some odd reason.

I (60 SK) did exactly that trial some years ago with a 60 paladin. He mostly used flash of light mixed in with stun when it was up; I was using a mixture of disease cloud, clinging darkness, and the occasional AC debuff. Our result was we kept ping-ponging the target monster back and forth between us until we got bored and decided our normal threat generation was effectively equal. I didn't use heart flutter or asystole, two notoriously high-threat spells. I intend to give them a trial some day, but thus far I've never got around to it.

Years of experience tells me that on either class the occasional fizzle streak is the most common reason someone else might get whacked on an engage, followed by an inopportune bash or once in awhile someone might go overboard because he wants to rip aggro on purpose for fun.

--------------------------

Edit: My memory is that piercing was belatedly given to paladins because some folks used to complain to Verant that it made no sense for the paladin class not to have that skill since some of the paladins of our own real and quasi-real history used various types of spears.

Danth

[Pint]

You can't chain cast DC either. Weaving DC and SV may possibly end up beating out spamming blind with the occasional stun though, but even so, it'll never make a difference in a group/raid scenario unless the SK/Paladin are literally fighting for agro against each other for some odd reason. I'm curious why you think blind is for lower level paladins though since I personally tend to use that the most to generate threat at 59.

It's been a minute but I remember by the time I was tanking the planes blind had to go bc it was more trouble then it was worth and it wasn't necessary. Never had to start using it in velious iirc but I guess if you know it can't land then maybe it's worth it?

[starkind]

The piercing skill is a bigger deal than it seems since that makes both Lance of Thunder (52/46) and Great Spear of Dawn (53/46) more viable for paladins, and those two are the most accessible high end 2 handed weapons for knights.

that weapons with these stats even exist in classic is horrifying

[DeathsSilkyMist]

that weapons with these stats even exist in classic is horrifying

It isn't that bad, because Pal/SK can't dual wield, crit, or have triple attack. Also, SK piercing skill is lower than their other skills, so that means you are doing less damage. Paladins have a higher piercing skill, but their DPS is a bit lower anyway since they don't have a pet or DoTs.

[Pint]

You could give a paladin either one of those with haste and avatar and they'd still only do a consistent 35-40 dps

[Achromatic]

I did battle rez once while tanking and holding aggro.

That's my contribution to this thread.

[starkind]

Alright I believe u guys i'll let it slide for now

[plzrelax]

I did battle rez once while tanking and holding aggro.

That's my contribution to this thread.

That’s pretty rad

[oldschoolguy]

They both offtank end game and both are okish at it, not warriors.

However they play different, so keep that in mind.

- SK can FD and can invis without potions. Paladin can't.
- Paladin has a much easier epic, much much easier, so if it matters to you, that's a plus.
- SK can solo way better due to fear kite. Paladin can't solo nearly as good as SK, it's not even close.
- Paladins do look way cooler though with that flaming sword though.

But if I were you, just pick what you like the look of more. None of this shit matters anyway. Don't overthink it, it's building sand castle in someone elses sandbox.

[Trungep99]

Sk’s can contribute to raid pulling with their pets and FD, something Paladins cannot do. And obviously the off tanking or agro snapping.

So anyone who says they are useless is mistaken, but I won’t say their role cannot be duplicated by others

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sk’s can contribute to raid pulling with their pets and FD, something Paladins cannot do. And obviously the off tanking or agro snapping.

So anyone who says they are useless is mistaken, but I won’t say their role cannot be duplicated by others

Shadowknights certainly aren't useless. They are great in solo/group situations.

However, Shadowknights rarely get used for raid pulling. Not unless this has changed in the last year or so. Usually Necromancers are preferred over Shadowknights.

Paladins typically have more utility in raids due to having Divine Strength, Soulfire, and their off-healing capacity in a pinch.

Not trying to discourage people from playing Shadowknights. I love my Shadowknight, and he works really well in any solo/group situation. But in raids all of the Shadowknight specific utility is either nerfed (lifetap nerfs on P99), or unused (pulling).

Shadowknights will simply be used for offtanking and DPS. You won't be able to use your pets for DPS either typically in raid situations. The pet will be used for pet tracking only, as you probably won't get to pull.

[7thGate]

You could give a paladin either one of those with haste and avatar and they'd still only do a consistent 35-40 dps

It will be spikey as hell due to the delay too.

Its funny though, Snails beats me on DPS sometimes if I'm really unlucky with backstabs and he gets a lucky streak with Avatar+Tunare sword. Doesn't happen that often but its kind of a funny WTF moment when the Pally starts pulling 90 DPS for a bit cause all the hits land. As a dual wielding Rogue, if I roll 10 misses in a row I stop doing damage for like 4 seconds and recoup it with a lucky backstab roll or a lucky streak of hits. A pally swinging one of these that hits the same unlucky patch does 0 damage for like 15 seconds.

I was kind of curious so I went poking through my last sky raid logs, and he was doing between 20 and 97 dps. There were two kills where both of us were on it for the whole time and he beat me out.

[zati]

End game? Both r pretty sweet in their own way

Pal can rez, layhands, 5x CH from soulfire, divine str 200HP buff, calm pull/root camp crawl dungeons, super fun to duo/ enchanter, divine aura train outs

Sk can raid pull chardok royals to ent w/o a rogue(necro too), assist in vp trains, fte outdoor dragons w/ sow sword + pet track, go anywhere in seb/HS with no rogue for corpse recoveries, solo pull all of plane of hate w/ dispell/undead lulls/fd for a raid group.. 1 of 3 classes that can solo pull and kill fungi king but you have to abuse the saferock(just sayin its possible and isn't worth the trouble)

Well geared pal/sk (velious raid geared) prolly at best are able to tank kunark dragons/royals/HOT/Wtov trash with enuff heals .. never seen a hybrid fully tank any velious raid bosses in tov from start to finish in this timed locked era. perhaps the CS dragon and lodizal would be the only exception

[Naethyn]

Pal or SK is so hot in VP right now.

[Pint]

End game? Both r pretty sweet in their own way

Pal can rez, layhands, 5x CH from soulfire, divine str 200HP buff, calm pull/root camp crawl dungeons, super fun to duo/ enchanter, divine aura train outs

Sk can raid pull chardok royals to ent w/o a rogue(necro too), assist in vp trains, fte outdoor dragons w/ sow sword + pet track, go anywhere in seb/HS with no rogue for corpse recoveries, solo pull all of plane of hate w/ dispell/undead lulls/fd for a raid group.. 1 of 3 classes that can solo pull and kill fungi king but you have to abuse the saferock(just sayin its possible and isn't worth the trouble)

Well geared pal/sk (velious raid geared) prolly at best are able to tank kunark dragons/royals/HOT/Wtov trash with enuff heals .. never seen a hybrid fully tank any velious raid bosses in tov from start to finish in this timed locked era. perhaps the CS dragon and lodizal would be the only exception

I tanked a couple of dragons and vindi but i remember it not being viable and only working bc we had 90+ man raids

[Vivitron]

It will be spikey as hell due to the delay too.

Its funny though, Snails beats me on DPS sometimes if I'm really unlucky with backstabs and he gets a lucky streak with Avatar+Tunare sword. Doesn't happen that often but its kind of a funny WTF moment when the Pally starts pulling 90 DPS for a bit cause all the hits land. As a dual wielding Rogue, if I roll 10 misses in a row I stop doing damage for like 4 seconds and recoup it with a lucky backstab roll or a lucky streak of hits. A pally swinging one of these that hits the same unlucky patch does 0 damage for like 15 seconds.

I was kind of curious so I went poking through my last sky raid logs, and he was doing between 20 and 97 dps. There were two kills where both of us were on it for the whole time and he beat me out.

From the parses I was looking at I think the average comes out closer to ~65-70 than the ~35-40 number Pint suggested.

[Danth]

From the parses I was looking at I think the average comes out closer to ~65-70 than the ~35-40 number Pint suggested.

40 DPS on a knight was pretty average back during Kunark. I expect it ought to average higher now with the various class and mechanic revamps we've had since then. Could be that's a worst case scenario against a particularly high-AC target?

--------------------------

Pint is very much accurate from the tank side. The hybrids tank lower-end raids perfectly well--which has major ramifications on "recycle" servers (they're the best tanks pre-expansion)--but they aren't well-suited to the needs of Velious end-game. Even if you can make them work for Velious boss tanking, there's little reason to do so except to say you did. Fair's fair, let warriors have their moment of joy.

Danth

[Crede]

I have both - I think Paladin is the overall better class on paper, especially in the P99 raid scene with the Soulfire change.

But with that being said, I still enjoy playing my SK more. Just so much QoL and the ability to go anywhere, having access to all of the master races, and a much cooler/useful epic IMO than pallies. There's a lot of fun/creativity to be had fear kiting in close quarters too. Truly a phenomenal class that gets overlooked due to limited raid utility in the classic scene.

[tycohunden]

Still trying to find a paladin able to get anywhere near my superior SK dps, guess they're just "too busy watching the tank with their class viability"-nonsense.
Fuck paladins, just go SK and /ignore anyone who asks you to swap classes.
If you pars higher than shitter monks, no one can really trash you.

[Ripqozko]

Imagine a shit tier sk dps ragging on shit tier pally dps.

Yikes

[Troxx]

Yikies!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've certainly out dpsed monks on my SK hehe. Paladin endgame is better for raiding and solo challenge on mobs that can't be feared. SKs endgame can solo anything fearable better. SKs are better in groups endgame too due to FD. SKs are not really used in raiding.

[Trungep99]

I tanked a couple of dragons and vindi but i remember it not being viable and only working bc we had 90+ man raids

I remember that raid you tanked Vindi. Was sweet

[Trungep99]

I've certainly out dpsed monks on my SK hehe. Paladin endgame is better for raiding and solo challenge on mobs that can't be feared. SKs endgame can solo anything fearable better. SKs are better in groups endgame too due to FD. SKs are not really used in raiding.

SKs can land their debuffs on raid bosses, just have to worry about pulling agro. So I debuffed the atk and ac with the shrouds

[Troxx]

To be blunt, the overall versatility in any communal situation (group or raid) strongly favors Paladins over SKs at the end game. They just bring more to the table. SKs can make valuable contributions to raid pull teams situationally … but this doesn’t offset paladin buff capabilities, heals, CH clicks and whatnot. It’s not really close.

Neither of them are good DPS. I mean is my paladin with Greatspear of dawn capable of putting down numbers and impressing non-raid geared folks in groups? Sure … but doesn’t hold a candle to any competently/equally geared raid melee.

Paladins just have a more well balanced and powerful tool kit.

[Toxigen]

Soulfires and DS make Paladins better. Simply put, a SK cannot save a raid but a Soulfire surely can. Incredible on tight AoWs, clutch pre slow vulaks, etc.

SK is kinda nice certain spots. They make for fantastic pullers off the bard kite(s) in Growth and are ok running around in VP.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's simple. If you prefer solo/group situations, SK is going to be better. If you want to raid with your hybrid, Paladin is better.

[Ripqozko]

Its simple, what it basically all boils down to is

[Troxx]

It's simple. If you prefer solo/group situations, SK is going to be better. If you want to raid with your hybrid, Paladin is better.

Solo? Probably/definitely. Paladins are capable(ish) but SKs have a wider range of options. I did quite a bit of soloing on my Paladin. It wasn’t terrible but god it would have been easier as a SK.

With regards to grouping? I would disagree. Granted both classes are so exceptionally great in groups that it really doesn’t matter at all, but I fail to see how the SK edges out to any superior state. Breaking it down by job/whatever.

Tanking: both are excellent. Factoring in other stuff below you and it’s direct/indirect impact on tanking, you could make the case that one is better than the other … but I digress, they are both superior group tanks.

Aggro: both are excellent. Which would win in a penis waving contest of who could 1-up the other? Doesn’t matter. Neither should ever (ever … never ever) a problem with threat.

DPS: in a fast moving group, they will honestly be about the same. Yes a SK can load up them dots for a harder burn but you’s gonna find yourself sitting on your arse oom if you think a SK will keep up with it regularly enough to make a difference unless pulls or slow or there’s a lot of down time in the camp. SK pet can function as a nice dot, but it’s a wash. Thread asks specifically about high end groups and knight dps, while a worthwhile addition if geared well, is small in the grand scheme of things.

Pulling: SK have FD. Paired with snare you may find the rare circumstance with a less than ideal group where this is preferable to just chain pulling and cc’ing adds. On the flip side Paladins can lull pull quite easily in most all group situations. In the end, you’re likely going to have someone else pulling. +1 to SK if it NEEDS FD and you don’t have a dedicated puller who could and should be doing it better. In every other situation it’s either a wash or the paladin can do just as well if not faster soothing.

Healing: One can heal themselves inefficiently. The other can heal both self and others more efficiently (and maybe more importantly they can do so between fights).

Utility: this is where the classes really diverge. Paladins have a very broad toolkit. SKs kinda get the shaft here. High end? Paladins have some potent direct healing, emergency group healing (honestly though it’s a mana hog and not powerful), a fast cast 175hp HoT, root, lull, multiple stuns, a 200hp targetable buff that stacks with everything, a backup 90% rez if your cleric way down at EMP/King bites it (should never happen), emergency LoH …. it paints a pretty clear picture. Should you find yourself in a ‘high end’ group without a cleric, paladins get lower level cleric hp buff, symbol, and ac buffs to bolster self and others. The sum total of what a SK brings utility wise just can’t compare. This is where I make and rest my case that SK is not the better group class.

Granted in most groups will either knight find themselves using the full scope of their utility toolkit? Probably not. Mostly you’ll be focusing on making the mob hit you while letting each respective group member cover their duty.

SKs do have one MASSIVE creature comfort: mobility. Between invis (instant if you have prenerf) and FD … damn that’s nice. Getting around on a paladin is a comparative pain in the ass. Joining a group deep in a dungeon? Paladins basically have to either attempt to lull in, train/die close to the group, get a drag/rez or CoTH, or have the group leave camp to come pull or get to them. This difference may seem small … but a serious case could be made that for the player who only really does grouping that the SK class is just so much more friendly to play. Mobility is such a headache saver.



TLDR summary: both knights are fantastic in groups. Rarely will their differences make any substantial impact. In those rare cases where their differences really do matter, the only meaningful advantage the SK might have is having the unique ability to FD pull when absolutely necessary and nobody else can do it.

[Ripqozko]

Solo? Probably/definitely. Paladins are capable(ish) but SKs have a wider range of options. I did quite a bit of soloing on my Paladin. It wasn’t terrible but god it would have been easier as a SK.

With regards to grouping? I would disagree. Granted both classes are so exceptionally great in groups that it really doesn’t matter at all, but I fail to see how the SK edges out to any superior state. Breaking it down by job/whatever.

Tanking: both are excellent. Factoring in other stuff below you and it’s direct/indirect impact on tanking, you could make the case that one is better than the other … but I digress, they are both superior group tanks.

Aggro: both are excellent. Which would win in a penis waving contest of who could 1-up the other? Doesn’t matter. Neither should ever (ever … never ever) a problem with threat.

DPS: in a fast moving group, they will honestly be about the same. Yes a SK can load up them dots for a harder burn but you’s gonna find yourself sitting on your arse oom if you think a SK will keep up with it regularly enough to make a difference unless pulls or slow or there’s a lot of down time in the camp. SK pet can function as a nice dot, but it’s a wash. Thread asks specifically about high end groups and knight dps, while a worthwhile addition if geared well, is small in the grand scheme of things.

Pulling: SK have FD. Paired with snare you may find the rare circumstance with a less than ideal group where this is preferable to just chain pulling and cc’ing adds. On the flip side Paladins can lull pull quite easily in most all group situations. In the end, you’re likely going to have someone else pulling. +1 to SK if it NEEDS FD and you don’t have a dedicated puller who could and should be doing it better. In every other situation it’s either a wash or the paladin can do just as well if not faster soothing.

Healing: One can heal themselves inefficiently. The other can heal both self and others more efficiently (and maybe more importantly they can do so between fights).

Utility: this is where the classes really diverge. Paladins have a very broad toolkit. SKs kinda get the shaft here. High end? Paladins have some potent direct healing, emergency group healing (honestly though it’s a mana hog and not powerful), a fast cast 175hp HoT, root, lull, multiple stuns, a 200hp targetable buff that stacks with everything, a backup 90% rez if your cleric way down at EMP/King bites it (should never happen), emergency LoH …. it paints a pretty clear picture. Should you find yourself in a ‘high end’ group without a cleric, paladins get lower level cleric hp buff, symbol, and ac buffs to bolster self and others. The sum total of what a SK brings utility wise just can’t compare. This is where I make and rest my case that SK is not the better group class.

Granted in most groups will either knight find themselves using the full scope of their utility toolkit? Probably not. Mostly you’ll be focusing on making the mob hit you while letting each respective group member cover their duty.

SKs do have one MASSIVE creature comfort: mobility. Between invis (instant if you have prenerf) and FD … damn that’s nice. Getting around on a paladin is a comparative pain in the ass. Joining a group deep in a dungeon? Paladins basically have to either attempt to lull in, train/die close to the group, get a drag/rez or CoTH, or have the group leave camp to come pull or get to them. This difference may seem small … but a serious case could be made that for the player who only really does grouping that the SK class is just so much more friendly to play. Mobility is such a headache saver.



TLDR summary: both knights are fantastic in groups. Rarely will their differences make any substantial impact. In those rare cases where their differences really do matter, the only meaningful advantage the SK might have is having the unique ability to FD pull when absolutely necessary and nobody else can do it.

tldr Ranger is better class overall

[Toxigen]

Sorry you don't got soulfire hope this helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

With regards to grouping? I would disagree. Granted both classes are so exceptionally great in groups that it really doesn’t matter at all, but I fail to see how the SK edges out to any superior state. Breaking it down by job/whatever.


The main reason why SKs edge out Paladins in general grouping is because of FD pulling. With an SK you can have your tank and puller as one class, similar to having a monk who can pull and tank. This means you could get away with less group members, and thus more XP per kill. Paladins can pull, but it is generally slower and more dangerous. When you have a Paladin tank you would typically want a dedicated puller as well.

You could argue that a Paladin could act as your reser at 60, and therefore could get away with having a Shaman as your main healer instead. But Paladins only get their good res at 60, so this means you can't do that for levels 1-59, whereas SK's can start FD pulling at 30. A lot of people also have pocket clerics these days, so you can get away with having a res bot parked somewhere when needed.

Don't get me wrong, both are great in groups, and both can solo well. And there are situations where Paladins are better. They do better in any solo situation where you cannot fear the mob, for example.

[Troxx]

The main reason why SKs edge out Paladins in general grouping is because of FD pulling. With an SK you can have your tank and puller as one class, similar to having a monk who can pull and tank. This means you could get away with less group members, and thus more XP per kill. Paladins can pull, but it is generally slower and more dangerous. When you have a Paladin tank you would typically want a dedicated puller as well.

You could argue that a Paladin could act as your reser at 60, and therefore could get away with having a Shaman as your main healer instead. But Paladins only get their good res at 60, so this means you can't do that for levels 1-59, whereas SK's can start FD pulling at 30. A lot of people also have pocket clerics these days, so you can get away with having a res bot parked somewhere when needed.

Don't get me wrong, both are great in groups, and both can solo well. And there are situations where Paladins are better. They do better in any solo situation where you cannot fear the mob, for example.

I will say that compared to all the classes I’ve ever played the Paladin class didn’t feel like it “woke up” until late. 3 of the best spells are 59/60. Warrior is maybe the only class that woke up harder at the high end … or shaman before and after torpor. Paladins just get exponentially better at every level beyond 50 with big boosts after 55. They are always good but get GREAT late in the game.

Caveat: I have all respect for you. The following is not an attack. Educate me if I’m wrong. I had to take 2.5-3 years off p99 so my memory could be honestly fuzzy.

Can you name off the camps/areas where FD pulling is mandatory … or if not mandatory then preferable? And if so if so the types of camps that with a balanced group you want your tank pulling to begin with? I can think of a very … very few where maybe a SK as the tank would be preferable with a less than balanced group or a small squad.

My memory says:
-Kael arena hunting inside the building +/- PoZs
-deep in DN on the harder/nastier rats (if you don’t have a monk/bard)
-deep deep seb … protector/fungiKing (if you don’t have a monk)

There are probably more I can’t remember … so I’m honestly asking. What types of group content MANDATE FD pulling? Most all camps you just pull 2-5 or 7 and cc. The faster the better. Of those camps that need to have a degree of control; lulling works. Resists happen but crit resists with end game gear and buffs are rare. If FD is either required or preferred … having the tank pull both roles slows the group down hugely vs just inviting a monk (or if outdoors dang a Ranger).

FD pulling is very unique; but it is RARE where it is necessary or even preferable (sk FD pulling is slow) vs just pulling more and using other CC tools.

If there are lots more let me know, because from what I remember most all camps or group goals don’t even remotely apply.

If I’m wrong; re-educate me.

My main is a WARRIOR and I have face pulled most of this game with zero problems in any half-decent group, duo or trio. Warriors can’t FD, snare, root or lull. Beyond that I have pulled most every camp on my monk/bard. I’ve pulled most of the same on my paladin. I’ve played most (but not all) classes up to 60. I’ve pulled as “the ideal” class in most situations at all group levels. I can identify very few that would benefit from having a sk who is also tanking and inefficiently pulling with snare/FD where the outcome is ideal. In most cases just pull without FD … cc … and kill faster. Those camps exist but they are few and far between.

As an aside … I have had many profitable duos on my pal with an ench. Better with my cleric but my paladin can heal/buff an ench well enough to plow through high end zones.

Only classes I can think of that pair well with OP ench are my cleric or my shaman.

[Crede]

DPS: in a fast moving group, they will honestly be about the same. Yes a SK can load up them dots for a harder burn but you’s gonna find yourself sitting on your arse oom if you think a SK will keep up with it regularly enough to make a difference unless pulls or slow or there’s a lot of down time in the camp. SK pet can function as a nice dot, but it’s a wash.

I can tell you've never played a SK, their final 2 pets are way more than a washed dot, lol. The last one will quad for 47 & lifetap, not to mention SK's have a small haste for their pet as well. I pretty much always have a max one running when allowed. SK's do more dps than pallies, between their taps, pets, dots, debuffs, etc. there's really no debate there. Nothing a pally has really does anything to contribute to killing stuff faster, besides maybe their undead nuke which sks also get and is probably the reason I don't really play mine.

I give pallies the edge for raiding, and maybe certain solo situations 51+ where FD is not required & the mob is super MR & fearing is not an option. SK wins otherwise

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will say that compared to all the classes I’ve ever played the Paladin class didn’t feel like it “woke up” until late. 3 of the best spells are 59/60. Warrior is maybe the only class that woke up harder at the high end … or shaman before and after torpor. Paladins just get exponentially better at every level beyond 50 with big boosts after 55. They are always good but get GREAT late in the game.

Caveat: I have all respect for you. The following is not an attack. Educate me if I’m wrong. I had to take 2.5-3 years off p99 so my memory could be honestly fuzzy.

Can you name off the camps/areas where FD pulling is mandatory … or if not mandatory then preferable? And if so if so the types of camps that with a balanced group you want your tank pulling to begin with? I can think of a very … very few where maybe a SK as the tank would be preferable with a less than balanced group or a small squad.

My memory says:
-Kael arena hunting inside the building +/- PoZs
-deep in DN on the harder/nastier rats (if you don’t have a monk/bard)
-deep deep seb … protector/fungiKing (if you don’t have a monk)

There are probably more I can’t remember … so I’m honestly asking. What types of group content MANDATE FD pulling? Most all camps you just pull 2-5 or 7 and cc. The faster the better. Of those camps that need to have a degree of control; lulling works. Resists happen but crit resists with end game gear and buffs are rare. If FD is either required or preferred … having the tank pull both roles slows the group down hugely vs just inviting a monk (or if outdoors dang a Ranger).

FD pulling is very unique; but it is RARE where it is necessary or even preferable (sk FD pulling is slow) vs just pulling more and using other CC tools.

If there are lots more let me know, because from what I remember most all camps or group goals don’t even remotely apply.

If I’m wrong; re-educate me.

My main is a WARRIOR and I have face pulled most of this game with zero problems in any half-decent group, duo or trio. Warriors can’t FD, snare, root or lull. Beyond that I have pulled most every camp on my monk/bard. I’ve pulled most of the same on my paladin. I’ve played most (but not all) classes up to 60. I’ve pulled as “the ideal” class in most situations at all group levels. I can identify very few that would benefit from having a sk who is also tanking and inefficiently pulling with snare/FD where the outcome is ideal. In most cases just pull without FD … cc … and kill faster. Those camps exist but they are few and far between.

As an aside … I have had many profitable duos on my pal with an ench. Better with my cleric but my paladin can heal/buff an ench well enough to plow through high end zones.

Only classes I can think of that pair well with OP ench are my cleric or my shaman.

I have heard a lot of people like the strategy of just pulling mobs into camp without FD and then dealing with them in camp. There are a lot of places where you could get away with doing that just fine. But in my play experience I prefer FD pulling, even if it is a bit slower. Any group wipe will destroy whatever time you saved by not FD pulling.

I think it really depends on who you tend to play with. If you normally play with a static group that is talking over discord who knows the game well, then you can get away with not using FD pulling in many cases. But if you normally play with random people and pickup groups, FD is going to be preferable over the more dangerous pulling in to camp strategy. Public groups are typically just not organized enough to handle that kind of pulling, and often times people will AFK randomly.

That is why I normally say SK's are better for group situations, because they are the better option when dealing with public groups, and they still work great in statics. Paladins aren't going to be as good of pullers in public groups.

[Troxx]

I can tell you've never played a SK, their final 2 pets are way more than a washed dot, lol.

I use gamparse to watch real-time dps in nearly every group I’ve been in. I am well aware of the actual dps the SK pet is capable of. I also am aware of how much better the max sk pet is when, when playing my shaman, I double stack maniacal strength and focus stack on said pet and it’s given a mage pet haste mask.

It’s basically a glorified dot and it scales down pretty hard the higher the level of the monster you’re fighting. It’s a nice addition to be sure, but please don’t even pretend it’s some amazing source of abundant dps.

I am no stranger to pet classes, pet dps capabilities per class and pet type. Check my sig below. I have 3 level 60 classes who can summon pets.

[Crede]

I use gamparse to watch real-time dps in nearly every group I’ve been in. I am well aware of the actual dps the SK pet is capable of. I also am aware of how much better the max sk pet is when, when playing my shaman, I double stack maniacal strength and focus stack on said pet and it’s given a mage pet haste mask.

It’s basically a glorified dot and it scales down pretty hard the higher the level of the monster you’re fighting. It’s a nice addition to be sure, but please don’t even pretend it’s some amazing source of abundant dps.

I am no stranger to pet classes, pet dps capabilities per class and pet type. Check my sig below. I have 3 level 60 classes who can summon pets.

I'm not saying it's some insane source of dps, but you're sitting here saying it's a wash when trying to argue that pally is a better grouping class. It's not a wash, and you're spreading false information.

99.99% of groups do not regularly need any of the pally stuff, like lulls, roots, etc. An occasional heal/rez here and there can come in handy, but if a pally is honestly healing that much, something is really off with the group. 100% of groups just want to kill shit as fast as possible. And with a SK you will kill stuff faster making them a better grouping class in addition to being a better overall solo class. I have a pally, they get a cool spell set, but their only real advantage is in the raid scene.

[Troxx]

I acknowledged all of the above things you pointed out already. And, no having a sk in the group instead of a paladin is not going to morph your team into a dps powerhouse wallowing in fountains of surplus xp from killing faster. Knights are just bad at dps. Functionally, their dps output is quite similar unless you’re routinely burning your mana bar which implies you’ve got tons of time to sit down meditating… which further implies that the extra dps POTENTIAL is a wash because you don’t have enough mobs to kill.

I made and have rested my case. It is all clearly spelled out a few posts ago and broken down in great detail.

No point in rehashing so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

[Ripqozko]

Imagine a shit tier sk dps ragging on shit tier pally dps.

Yikes

[mattydef]

Paladin is the better group tank for sure. SK cannot match what a paladin can bring to a group (root CC and heals make a huge difference). Yes, SKs have FD but nobody actually utilizes that in groups these days when it comes to pulling. You pretty much just send someone out to grab mobs and CC any adds as needed instead of trying to single pull split with FD.

I will say this though, in a group dungeon like seb with haste and buffs a knight with a high end weapon will put out surprisingly more DPS than a lot of people give them credit for.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Paladin is the better group tank for sure. SK cannot match what a paladin can bring to a group (root CC and heals make a huge difference). Yes, SKs have FD but nobody actually utilizes that in groups these days when it comes to pulling. You pretty much just send someone out to grab mobs and CC any adds as needed instead of trying to single pull split with FD.

Honestly most groups don't need a Paladin to do this. Having FD as an option allows your group to do more things, whereas most groups already have root and heals. At this point you are talking about a group that doesn't have anyone else with roots/heals. And that is fine if you build a group like that around a Paladin, but generally speaking you don't need to do that. It is easy enough to find a healer with root. If you can pull mobs in without FD, the content is already trivial, and you don't need the Paladin's toolkit.

[Crede]

Yea if you have a group needing a pally to be rooting/healing a lot, your support classes most def are loving that Netflix show.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not sure why people use the argument of "we can just pull mobs into camp without FD" as an argument for Paladins. Honestly any time you can do that you are playing trivial content. You could swap the Paladin for a Warrior and you wouldn't notice a difference.

[mattydef]

If we are assuming that specific tasks in a group are already covered than i'm gonna assume my group already has a monk to pull and FD with, and also add more DPS. Paladin still brings back up heals to the group to save a healer or enchanter...not to mention LoH for emergencies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If we are assuming that specific tasks in a group are already covered than i'm gonna assume my group already has a monk to pull and FD with, and also add more DPS. Paladin still brings back up heals to the group to save a healer or enchanter...not to mention LoH for emergencies.

But if you have an SK you don't need a Monk, and can reduce your group numbers to increase XP gain. This is because the SK can FD pull and tank at the same time.

If you can just pull mobs into the group without FD, you don't need the extra heals hehe. The content is already super easy.

[Toxigen]

If you want to play a tank that relies on FD you should just be playing a monk and do some actual damage.

Can't wait til DSM comes in with a wall o' text trying to convince me that SKs are better than monks in X, Y, and Z.

[mattydef]

I would also bring up the fact that a well timed stun to interrupt a gate/heal/ice comet makes a hell of a difference but they'll just come back and say something like "oh yea well the cleric in the group can do that". Everything a pally brings to a group is apparently disregarded because "another class can do it", but when you point out that another class does what SKs can do but better, they make excuses about how an SK is still somehow more valuable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you want to play a tank that relies on FD you should just be playing a monk and do some actual damage.

Can't wait til DSM comes in with a wall o' text trying to convince me that SKs are better than monks in X, Y, and Z.

In a group setting you are correct, a Monk who can tank and pull is going to out-perform an SK in most situations. But in solo situations SK's are generally better than Monks due to how much utility they have with their spells. Fear kiting is more efficient than face tanking as a Monk. Even though their DPS is higher, they have more downtime.

SK's are not stigmatized in group settings, so you don't have much of an edge when getting groups as a Monk. Fungi Tunic camp will take a Monk or an SK as a puller.

When determining if you should play SK or Monk, it really just depends on how much grouping/raiding you want to do. If you solo a lot and group/raid occasionally, SK will be better. Otherwise, Monk is better.

I would also bring up the fact that a well timed stun to interrupt a gate/heal/ice comet makes a hell of a difference but they'll just come back and say something like "oh yea well the cleric in the group can do that". Everything a pally brings to a group is apparently disregarded because "another class can do it", but when you point out that another class does what SKs can do but better, they make excuses about how an SK is still somehow more valuable.

SK's can fear to interrupt gate, so Paladin's don't have a monopoly on spell interrupts.

But as I keep saying, if you are in a group where you can just pull mobs without FD, you probably aren't being bothered by spell casters hehe. Just murder them before they can cast and move on, or let the spell land because you are resisting it anyway.

You need to use a different argument than "FD isn't needed" to justify a Paladin, because literally any class can just pull mobs into camp hehe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Everything a pally brings to a group is apparently disregarded because "another class can do it", but when you point out that another class does what SKs can do but better, they make excuses about how an SK is still somehow more valuable.

To this point specifically, that is not what I am doing at all. You need to realize only 3 classes in the game can FD pull (Monks, SK's, and Necromancers). There are 6 classes that can root and lull (Enchanters, Paladins, Druids, Rangers, Clerics, Necromancers). SK's and Bards can lull, but can't root. There are 6 classes that can heal (Shamans, Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Paladins, Necromancers).

The overlap on a Paladin's abilities is much greater than the overlap on an SK's abilities, which is why your group is much more likely to have a Paladin's spell's covered already. That is the point. You are less likely to have an FD class than a class that can root/lull/heal.

And as I keep saying, if you don't need FD to pull, then I am not sure what a Paladin brings to the table other than being a tank. Any class can just agro mobs and bring them into a camp.

[Keebz]

As a 60 monk and SK, monk is definitely better as frankly it's broken, but SK is underrated, probably because it's mostly played by shitters. A few points for SK: 1) way easier to gear 2) surprisingly capable puller in not ToV 3) can tank non-velious dragons

As for paladin vs sk raiding, since the soul fire nerf, it's paladin basically every time, except maybe PoF or when you need a pet for something.

For group and solo content, SK is excellent and really fun. Paladin might be able to heal through some shit that sk can't, but they also can't pull fungi or other high end stuff so who cares.

[Danth]

DSM, problem with being both a tank and puller in the same group is it slows the group down. Full groups don't tend to like that. Usually a regular group will want a person doing one or the other, but not both. That is not class-specific and applies to anyone.

In a generic full group I'd usually rather have my paladin's toolset than my shadowknight's. Either class does fine in good groups, but the paladin has better capability to cover for mistakes or weaknesses in other folks if things aren't ideal. That being said, this thread was referring to "end game." That's a nebulous term, but realistically on P1999 exceedingly few people are hanging out in full groups at level cap. A few farm teams might, but it's a small portion of the population. Otherwise full groups are mostly for leveling.

At level cap the overwhelming majority of players are either raiding, or doing stuff smallman in solo/duo/trios. Raids have already been discussed at length. Which class is better in a smallman group depends mostly on who the other partners are. Paladin pairs better with enchanter. Shadowknight pairs better with shaman. On balance I prefer the shadowknight's toolset when not in a full or nearly full group. It's a strong class and a good choice for a player who's notion of end-game is more smallman focused than raid focused.

Danth

[Troxx]

I always enjoy your posts Danth; insightful and to the point.

[Danth]

Can you name off the camps/areas where FD pulling is mandatory … or if not mandatory then preferable? And if so if so the types of camps that with a balanced group you want your tank pulling to begin with? I can think of a very … very few where maybe a SK as the tank would be preferable with a less than balanced group or a small squad.

My memory says:
-Kael arena hunting inside the building +/- PoZs
-deep in DN on the harder/nastier rats (if you don’t have a monk/bard)
-deep deep seb … protector/fungiKing (if you don’t have a monk)

If you have a full group usually the tank isn't going to also pull, agreed. If you're smallman, you can add places like velketor castle, most of Siren's, and much of the nastier areas of Chardok to your list above. While that's still not a huge list of zones, it does include a large proportion of the better duo/trio areas.

I include chardok even though enchanters often pull there because realistically paladin lull is a lot more limited than enchanter lull since the latter has more tools to deal with crit fails. A failed paladin lull in a tough zone usually means you're capping or dead and either way your trip's trashed, so I regard the paladin's use of that spell line as having a lower ceiling than ench despite it being the same spell.

I always enjoy your posts Danth; insightful and to the point.

Likewise, I'm glad to see you back active again. You've always been one to do the dirty work (parsing, etc) to prove or occasionally disprove things a lot of us take for granted.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, problem with being both a tank and puller in the same group is it slows the group down. Full groups don't tend to like that. Usually a regular group will want a person doing one or the other, but not both. That is not class-specific and applies to anyone.

In a generic full group I'd usually rather have my paladin's toolset than my shadowknight's. Either class does fine in good groups, but the paladin has better capability to cover for mistakes or weaknesses in other folks if things aren't ideal. That being said, this thread was referring to "end game." That's a nebulous term, but realistically on P1999 exceedingly few people are hanging out in full groups at level cap. A few farm teams might, but it's a small portion of the population. Otherwise full groups are mostly for leveling.

At level cap the overwhelming majority of players are either raiding, or doing stuff smallman in solo/duo/trios. Raids have already been discussed at length. Which class is better in a smallman group depends mostly on who the other partners are. Paladin pairs better with enchanter. Shadowknight pairs better with shaman. On balance I prefer the shadowknight's toolset when not in a full or nearly full group. It's a strong class and a good choice for a player who's notion of end-game is more smallman focused than raid focused.

Danth

I disagree. It honestly depends on what you are fighting, your group comp, and how active the group members are in terms of engagement. Having the tank as the puller means you don't need to tear agro away from the puller when they are coming into camp. The agro is already baked in. Once you have broken the spawns, as long as you keep a timer you can just pull singles or doubles while mobs are repoping. And if you want a constant stream of mobs, you can always have a secondary puller. Again, once the mobs are broken and respawns are stringed out you can have anybody in the group do pulling. You could even have an SK tank and a Monk DPS/secondary puller!

If your group is so unfocused that they are consistently missing stuff like heals, I doubt the group will last very long, regardless of whether you bring an SK or a Paladin. A full 6 man group should have enough people paying attention at all times.

Shadowknights can contribute to more important camps like Fungi, whereas a Paladin's toolkit doesn't have a specialty in any group camp as far as I am aware.

Again, I am not saying Paladins are bad or significantly worse. I am simply saying SK's offer something more unique: FD pulling. If your group is a 6 man and doesn't have enough lulls/roots/heals, it's probably a poor composition to begin with, and your efficiency is being drained by that more than by a tank puller.

[Danth]

If your group is a 6 man and doesn't have enough lulls/roots/heals, it's probably a poor composition to begin with, and your efficiency is being drained by that more than by a tank puller.

I don't know that we even disagree. This quoted bit is not inaccurate. The paladin gets stronger as its group gets worse; it can cover for group weaknesses better than the other tank types can. As such it's a good class for a player who does a great deal of pick-up grouping where he routinely has to make do with whatever he can get because his alternative is sitting around twiddling his thumbs. That's not really "endgame", though, as said before. Speaking of which.....

Shadowknight tends to win at fungus king, as much for snare as feign since the other snare classes tend to be shunned from that specific area. As a rule as the content gets harder and the levels of opponents increases the SK tends to pull ahead of the paladin. Lulls get iffy when stuff resists all the time, stuns don't work at all on 55+ opponents, etc. On many occasions a paladin might join the wife and I and turn our duo into a trio and it'd always end up the same: paladin would be on pulls starting out because lull is faster when it works, then once we got to the tougher areas we'd switch out for me (on my SK) pulling once lull couldn't be trusted anymore. Feign is slow, but ultimately it has a higher ceiling than lull has. My shadowknight can pull about anyplace a paladin can, even if it's slower, but the opposite is much less true and there are some places a paladin/shaman duo would hesitate to even try.

Edit: Add in guardian wurms as another thing I'd hate my life if I had to do with paladin lulls. They're annoying enough to snare/feign split, resistant jerks with a large assist radius.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't know that we even disagree. This quoted bit is not inaccurate. The paladin gets stronger as its group gets worse; it can cover for group weaknesses better than the other tank types can. As such it's a good class for a player who does a great deal of pick-up grouping where he routinely has to make do with whatever he can get because his alternative is sitting around twiddling his thumbs. That's not really "endgame", though, as said before. Speaking of which.....

Shadowknight tends to win at fungus king, as much for snare as feign since the other snare classes tend to be shunned from that specific area. As a rule as the content gets harder and the levels of opponents increases the SK tends to pull ahead of the paladin. Lulls get iffy when stuff resists all the time, stuns don't work at all on 55+ opponents, etc. On many occasions a paladin might join the wife and I and turn our duo into a trio and it'd always end up the same: paladin would be on pulls starting out because lull is faster when it works, then once we got to the tougher areas we'd switch out for me (on my SK) pulling once lull couldn't be trusted anymore. Feign is slow, but ultimately it has a higher ceiling than lull has. My shadowknight can pull about anyplace a paladin can, even if it's slower, but the opposite is much less true and there are some places a paladin/shaman duo would hesitate to even try.

Danth

I agree with you.

I think my main concern was that I find it an interesting logical conundrum that people keep arguing about group efficiency, but ironically a group is usually pretty inefficient if the Paladin is doing a lot of clutch saves. Obviously there are exceptions to this, like if you are trying to run a low man group without a pure healer.

[Ripqozko]

I agree with you.

I think my main concern was that I find it an interesting logical conundrum that people keep arguing about group efficiency, but ironically a group is usually pretty inefficient if the Paladin is doing a lot of clutch saves. Obviously there are exceptions to this, like if you are trying to run a low man group without a pure healer.

We get it ya play an sk

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We get it ya play an sk

You can be objective regardless of what classes you play. Monks are harder to gear and have less utility. On average they don't solo as well. Now I don't have a fully ToV geared monk, so it is certainly possible they are better at soloing when raid geared. But that is also a much harder task to accomplish compared to raid gearing an SK.

Paladins are great, and I never said they weren't. But it is a fact that more classes have overlapping function with a Paladin. On average, they are less specialized in a group.

[Toxigen]

We get it ya play an sk

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I get it, you don't have anything meaningful to add to the conversation.

[Ripqozko]

We get it ya play an sk

[Crede]

I agree with you.

I think my main concern was that I find it an interesting logical conundrum that people keep arguing about group efficiency, but ironically a group is usually pretty inefficient if the Paladin is doing a lot of clutch saves. Obviously there are exceptions to this, like if you are trying to run a low man group without a pure healer.

It's because they are referencing KC lcy/velks ent groups where mobs are all over the place. So yea, some extra roots/heals can be helpful. But in reality I think it's just enabling the support classes to slack off more, so that necro can /pet attack and cast splurt on mobs dieing in < 30 seconds and the cleric can watch netflix and toss a cheal every once in awhile.

Sk will bring more dps to the table, unlock more group content with FD, and can rip aggro on incoming mobs safer/faster with DC than blind/stun. I have a pally, but I'd rather play my SK in 95% of situations. They are a better overall class, and there's a reason you have 4-5 times more sks on at a time than pallies. Pallies biggest edge is collecting soulfire dkp in the raid scene.

[Ripqozko]

It's because they are referencing KC lcy/velks ent groups where mobs are all over the place. So yea, some extra roots/heals can be helpful. But in reality I think it's just enabling the support classes to slack off more, so that necro can /pet attack and cast splurt on mobs dieing in < 30 seconds and the cleric can watch netflix and toss a cheal every once in awhile.

Sk will bring more dps to the table, unlock more group content with FD, and can rip aggro on incoming mobs safer/faster with DC than blind/stun. I have a pally, but I'd rather play my SK in 95% of situations. They are a better overall class, and there's a reason you have 4-5 times more sks on at a time than pallies. Pallies biggest edge is collecting soulfire dkp in the raid scene.

Imagine referencing slacking off in a video game as a negative thing , hope that helps.

[Crede]

Imagine referencing slacking off in a video game as a negative thing , hope that helps.

Imagine thinking what you did in the raid scene meant anything, hope that helps!

[Ripqozko]

Imagine thinking what you did in the raid scene meant anything, hope that helps!

Sorry you are mad about it , consider yellow.

[mattydef]

It's crazy how different some opinions can be because I have both a paladin and SK and would take my pally in 95% of the situations, the 5% being the rare time where my group is guaranteed wiping and that FD would come in handy, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's crazy how different some opinions can be because I have both a paladin and SK and would take my pally in 95% of the situations, the 5% being the rare time where my group is guaranteed wiping and that FD would come in handy, lol.

I think the problem is people just get defensive about the characters they like. Paladins and Shadowknights are pretty close in terms of what they bring to the table in a group. So honestly you could go either way if you have both and have a great time in most cases.

The question is not "which one is miles ahead better"? The question is which one has an edge. The answer is Shadowknight simply because they have a more specialized toolkit that is harder to come by, and quite useful.

That doesn't mean Paladins are bad, or groups are dropping Paladins for SK's at an alarming rate. It just means realistically speaking Paladins have a less unique toolkit, and therefore bring a bit less to the table. Now of course you could have a group where you have a lower tier healer, such as a Druid, so Paladin backup heals would be more necessary. But at that point you can't really argue about efficiency, as that group already has inefficient healing.

[Troxx]

I think the problem is people just get defensive about the characters they like. Paladins and Shadowknights are pretty close in terms of what they bring to the table in a group. So honestly you could go either way if you have both and have a great time in most cases.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

/thread

[Danth]

Imagine referencing slacking off in a video game as a negative thing , hope that helps.

It's a bad thing when Mr. Entitlement wants to sit around doing nothing being carried while someone else does all the work. It's a multiplayer game, and your groupmates are people, not AI bots, so you owe it to your teammates to put forth fair effort or else you should stay home.

I think the problem is people just get defensive about the characters they like.

I like 'em both. Paladin's my historic character from the original game and my first character I made on P99 years ago. Shadowknight has become my main character on P99 since about 2012 or so. Still the only two classes in this game I truly like.

Danth

[Arvan]

Paladin is a bad warrior + a couple niche roles of its own

Sk is a bad warrior with fd and a pet for trainouts

[Bardp1999]

The real end game is fashion quest, pick whichever one you think looks cooler

[Swish]

The paladin epic is easier to complete.

[SenoraRaton]

Read the entire thread.
Decided to play warrior.

[Allishia]

Read the entire thread.
Decided to play warrior.

Lmao smart :p

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Read the entire thread.
Decided to play warrior.

Yeah Warrior is a great choice, especially if you are planning on raiding.