Bard stat questions / twink items?

[VincentVolaju]

Was wondering a few things about Bards and was hoping some of you Bard experts on here could help me out with them.

1) First, whats most important stats for a Bard? Ive heard Sta, others say Cha and today someone told me Dex is just as important as Cha?

2) Secondly, how much of said stat is enough? Assuming its Cha, do you treat it like caster's with Int, as in get 200+ of it?

3) Also, is it true that Cha effects your Mez/Enthrall songs, or is it ONLY your Charm?

4) About Bard damage, Ive heard that it's pretty decent, but nothing like Monk/Rog/Warrior because no double attack. If thats true and there damage is just alright, is it worth it to even use weapons in a group? Or should you instead just take an instrument out and sit in the back playing songs?

5) Lastly, if you were going to twink a Bard which items would you try to twink them? Stat items like things with +Sta/Cha/Dex, or HP items like 35hp earrings / HBC / SSB etc.? Also, what twink weapons would be best for Bard, if its even worth twinking them weapons?



Sorry for long post, hopefully some of you will be able to answer of the questions! Thanks!

[maestrom]

1) Your melee damage is negligible so don't really worry about focusing on Str. You won't really be tanking much if at all so you don't really have to worry too much about hps or AC (sta/agi). Bards use INT for mana so Wis is worthless. Int is only kinda useful because only a couple of songs actually use mana (which you won't be using often if at all anyways). Cha is pretty useless too.

Split between Str and Sta. You'll be able to carry a little more and have a few more hps. Not really that important though. you could dump it all into wis and not notice a big different.

3) not sure.

4) It's not decent. Most groups will want you to be attacking anyways though. The big benefit of bards in groups is haste which isn't affected by instrument mods. If you wanna be juggling instruments as well as twisting then go ahead but you'll burn yourself out pretty hard doing that. Stick to attacking and twisting.

5) Depends on your budget. Selos drum/McVaxius's Horn of War are nice for instruments. Also Lute of the Gypsy Princess. Lambent armor is fine. The bard only weapons are easy to come by and cheap.

[Swish]

Levelled a bard to 35 back in classic, never made it out of Lower Guk!

Where stats are concerned, the much used phrase that gets attributed to bards "jack of all trades, master of none" really sums it up. You'll be doing some mezzing (CHA), some melee (STR/DEX), likely taking some hits on multiple pulls/adds (STA/AGI) while twisting songs all over the place.

Your dps generally doesn't tally up as high as a rogue or monk's, and you might find some tanks beating you on dps...so I'd argue (and feel free to shoot me down) that STR/DEX take a back seat to the likes of STA/CHA/AGI. Where you go from there is a matter of preference, being quite the aggro magnet you'll want some survivability but for bard mez/lull/etc don't forget your charisma.

Does CHA have an impact on mez/enthrall? I always thought so (particularly with lulll) but I never managed to prove it with any concrete evidence.

With equipping weapons it depends on the zone, outdoor zones you'll probably find yourself pulling, so not too much weapon action but indoors you'll use them more often - just don't expect to be generating massive numbers, your haste song along with whatever else is being twisted make up your damage through the rest of the melee :)

...hope that's of some help, I'm sure bards of P99 have had a slightly different experience and can recollect with more detail :)

[jerus]

Starting stats I went with cha, just because it is supposed to help mez, not sure if it actually does, but like was already said, there is no set stats that make bards awesome.

In groups I put in instrument only when needed really. IE need resists, pop in drum and sing resists, no healer? regen with lute in. drum for selo's in larger zones and such. On general twist i have weapons in though, but i've not done full blown parses and breakdowns of things in p99, taking it much easier than I have on live.

As far as twinking, get Lute of the Gypsy Princess/mistmoore battle drums then get yourself some lambent or something else cheap and start kiting. Honestly no reason to group between 15 and 50 except if you just feel like it. AE kiting will be faster. Even after 50 (up to 54 atm and soloing is still far better).

So as far as twinking goes, spend what you want on it like twinking any melee. If you play it in groups you will play it like a melee, so haste item would be nice, more gear nice. As far as weapons If you have like 2k drop it on sonachie's partisan, then for secondary I'd pick up a sainy's singing dagger/sainy's claw, if you don't have 2k just try to find sainy's peices they are like 200-400ish it seems.

I'm lvl 54 wearing some bronze still, I'm sure i could level just about as fast nekkid, perhaps even faster as i woudln't have to CR (just hit bank to pick up backup instruments).

[nalkin]

1/2) All starting points into sta without a doubt.

3) Mez without any problem with what little cha I have, so no point in wasting initial stat points into it.

4) Luckily most group songs are not instrument modified, so you might as well swing your weapons. But bard dps is awful, not even close to monk/rog/warrior, but probably close to wizard lol.

5) idk

[Slave]

Can't believe this wasn't mentioned: Dexterity is what you want to focus on, as it is the stat that determines how many notes you miss. Apart from that, hp/ac/resists.

[Dravingar]

I'm pretty sure a wizard with tolajump robe and RoA could out DPS a bard, but I'd dump fully into Sta and then rest in cha.

[astuce999]

1) Dexterity is the most important stats, for missed notes.

2) 150 or so dex would be a good number to not miss 3-4 notes in a row.

3) Charisma has zero effect on Mez. Charisma has very very little effect on charm. The only palpable effect charisma has for bards is the aggro check on lull resist.

4) Bard melee damage is abysmal.

5) HP items. Selo's drums, Breath of Harmony, Singing Steel Helm.

cheers!

[Kevlar]

Bard single target damage isn't bad. If all you are doing is trying to burn down a single mob you can put out some decent DPS once you get all your damage chants. True the melee dps itself is abysmal, but I know in POP I could keep up with monks and rogues on single target just by stacking 4 chants along with melee.

Bards shine with aoe dmg though, or swarm kiting. Really no class can compete. I regularly would pull the entire crystal spider/centipede side of HoH and aoe them down, something like 3AA per kite. Helps to have a cleric parked nearby for the occasional lag spike though. Actually once I got most of my planar armor I could survive an occasional stun.

Charm kiting is good too. That is mostly what I did in Luclin era. Swarming all those social centi guys was pretty easy, you just need an instant clicky invis to help break charm when they are at ~5% life then you chant them down quickly and charm another. Get a swarm of 20 or so and you are killing one every 10 seconds or so. Did it with ulthorks in velious and cactus various stuff in kunark.

[falkun]

1) First, whats most important stats for a Bard? Ive heard Sta, others say Cha and today someone told me Dex is just as important as Cha?

STR, STA, and DEX are what I would focus on. STR so you can carry plate armor + gear. STA to survive hits, and DEX for the missed notes. I like a STR/STA combo around 100, and then anything left in DEX. That might not be possible with starting points though, so you may rely on some gear. As others have mentioned though, stat points are not huge for a bard though.

2) Secondly, how much of said stat is enough? Assuming its Cha, do you treat it like caster's with Int, as in get 200+ of it?

STR around 100 should allow you to carry about everything you need. STA is always good, no matter the number, and I think the same for DEX as I do for STA.

3) Also, is it true that Cha effects your Mez/Enthrall songs, or is it ONLY your Charm?

CHA actually has negligible impact on a bard.

4) About Bard damage, Ive heard that it's pretty decent, but nothing like Monk/Rog/Warrior because no double attack. If thats true and there damage is just alright, is it worth it to even use weapons in a group? Or should you instead just take an instrument out and sit in the back playing songs?

Bard melee is laughable. Bard single-target-DoT kiting is slow. Bard AE-DoT kiting is the most OP leveling experience in the game. As a bard, you will never kill things quickly, but you can go forever because nothing takes mana and you are faster than everything out there. For most groups, I melee and play haste songs, stepping back when I need to mez 2+ targets. If I'm solo, I'm using instruments only. In raids I typically use group strategy, however I will step back with an instrument for resists or other songs as the situation arises.

5) Lastly, if you were going to twink a Bard which items would you try to twink them? Stat items like things with +Sta/Cha/Dex, or HP items like 35hp earrings / HBC / SSB etc.? Also, what twink weapons would be best for Bard, if its even worth twinking them weapons?

Bards are the least gear dependent class in the game. Their preferred method of leveling, PBAoE DoT kiting with the L2 and L18 DoTs, requires amassing packs of mobs so large that if you get hit, you die regardless of HP/STA/AC/AGI. Bard's can't melee down mobs efficiently solo, so weapons are secondary. The only thing a bard can equip that will increase their leveling speed is a good instrument. A drum (percussion) for Selos, a lute (stringed) for L2 PBAoE DoT, and a horn (brass) for L18 PBAoE DoT. Any other gear is just to enhance your e-peen. A nakid bard can solo 5-46 faster than any other class in the game. But toss 10pp for a vendor-bought drum, lute, and horn, and he will level 80% faster.

Bard is a skill class, not a gear class. Our songs always last for a max of 18sec (minus the 2.5min selos), take 3sec to cast, and maintain a max of 5 songs at a time. There is 1 very situational song that requires mana, and none are affected by any stats except the instrument you are wielding. As a bard, those are you limitations, the combos you can pull off within them is astounding and I do not believe any other class can match, but that is personal opinion.

The only gear that will help a bard do more (read: sing more songs), is to get him a BoH and his epic (when they come out). Epic has a good proc and modifies all instrument types, and BoH has an insta-click song to add to the twist.

[Dr4z3r]

1) All starting points go in stamina. STAMINA, STAMINA, STAMINA. Every other stat can be easily raised with gear (Opalline Earrings for CHA, Lambent Gauntlets for DEX, etc.). Once you have that as high as is reasonable, you'll need to make sure you have around 120 STR, so that you can actually carry your armor & other gear. Once you have met those thresholds, an even split between DEX and CHA is best.

2) As I said above, you need to get your stamina as high as is reasonable (i.e., don't trade 5 DEX for 1 STA), you need to get your STR to 120 or so, and after that just raise your DEX & CHA as high as you can.

3) I'm not sure.

4) Bard melee damage at 50+ is comparable to a Ranger with no double attack, which means you do well under 1/2 what a Monk or Rogue would. That said, since some of your most important songs (i.e., mana song) are based on the singing skill, which has no instrument until Bard Epic, you should be attacking. Unless you're doing something completely critical like keeping 4 mobs mezzed, the increased killing speed from your melee will outweigh the increased benefit from your instrument modifier.\

5) Bards are one of the least gear-dependent classes out there. You can swarm-kite 5-50+ naked with vendor instruments. Depending on your budget, I'd say start with some AC and modest weapons (Banded + Springwood Clubx2) plus vendor instruments. If you're enjoying the class, move up to Lambent and MM Drums (maybe MM Lute, but don't pay anything over 50p). If you really want to be on the bleeding edge of things, mix-and-match gear (Crested Helm, Mithril Vambraces), grab expensive weapons like Sionachie's Partisan (~2.5k), and if you're really gonna shell out, get some Naggy drums for ultimate speed.

Edit: Sources ~ Wish I'd put my Bard's starting points in STA. Swarm-kited a few levels pre-Kunark. Wish I had double attack. Pro CC'er.

[Mcbard]

I've honestly found charisma to be nearly useless as a bard. Our mez/charm lasts 18 seconds max, and with very bad charisma (something in the 130s I believe) most of the time both of these will stick for full durations, unless a mob is within 1-2 levels of me in which case it will often break within the first few seconds if it breaks at all. If I had to do everything over I would put all of my starting stats into stam, and what little I had left into dex (song failures are fairly frequent, and dex is always good for procs).

Edit: DEFINITELY spend your twink money on instruments over weapons or armor. Then WR bags imo. When I had begun playing I had very little str, which is no good at all for a plate class. Hero bracer +wr bags helped me out a bunch.

[greatdane]

Can't really answer the first couple of questions.

3) Also, is it true that Cha effects your Mez/Enthrall songs, or is it ONLY your Charm?

I'm not completely sure if charisma affects bard charm, but I can say with a good deal of confidence that it doesn't affect mez, lull, or anything like that. They always functioned just like any other spell, for both bards and enchanters.

4) About Bard damage, Ive heard that it's pretty decent, but nothing like Monk/Rog/Warrior because no double attack. If thats true and there damage is just alright, is it worth it to even use weapons in a group? Or should you instead just take an instrument out and sit in the back playing songs?

Bard damage isn't very good, but if you melee and twist your chant dots, you can put out decent DPS. It'll almost certainly be lower than a warrior's, but not pitifully low. This means doing nothing else, though, so it generally isn't worthwhile - you should be singing buff songs, mana song, regen, or something like that. I'd say if you haven't been appointed a specific role (like singing fire resist on a raid) then you can go ahead and melee while singing your haste and mana regen or whatever most groups will expect. When you're needed for a particular raid role, go with an instrument. Also slap on a guitar when you're out of combat in groups, just to squeeze out a bit of extra efficiency.

5) Lastly, if you were going to twink a Bard which items would you try to twink them? Stat items like things with +Sta/Cha/Dex, or HP items like 35hp earrings / HBC / SSB etc.? Also, what twink weapons would be best for Bard, if its even worth twinking them weapons?

I'd go with HP/AC items and decent weapons. Dex supposedly affects song fizzle rates, but they seem to be bugged here and who knows if the code works the way it should. Make sure your strength is good enough to wear plate, and then focus on survivability stats. If some of it has dex on it, that's just nice.

[Dr4z3r]

Lots of people saying bards should sing haste, but I suspect everyone is thinking that all Bard songs are overhaste. Well, they're not. Bards don't get overhaste in Kunark, and EDIT: I didn't play a bard in classic, so I don't know what happens in Velious.

Bard haste is really quite weak: The best Bards get in Kunark is 45% (lvl 54), which gives no other benefits, while enchanters get Celerity (50%) at 39, and Shaman get the same at 56. All of these are v2 haste, so none of them stack with one another. When there's a shaman or enchanter in the group, a tanking song like Nillipus', or the STR/AGI from Verses are probably what you'll want to play.

tl;dr: Bard haste songs are weak and don't stack with anything.

[greatdane]

Not all groups have a shaman or enchanter, especially if they have a bard already.

[maestrom]

Bard overhaste (the ervaj line) is in Velious.

[soup]

tl;dr: Bard haste songs are weak and don't stack with anything.

Wait, what? Everything I have ever heard about haste stacking (from the original Kunark days through all my time on p99) has always been "one item, one spell, one song" meaning that the bard haste was stacking with the enchanter haste was stacking with the FBSS.

[baalzy]

Only overhaste stacks w/ haste spells. Which comes with Velious.

Bards can do some pretty impressive DPS on a single mob if they twist in all their DoTs. Should be more damage then they'd achieve by just pure melee once all the DoTs are ticking and upkept. However this also has the added effect of turning the bard into the tank.

[Arkanjil]

3) Also, is it true that Cha effects your Mez/Enthrall songs, or is it ONLY your Charm?

Charisma does have an effect on charm/mez, while marginal. The biggest concern with charisma for a bard is the lull resist check. If lull resists, the higher charisma you have the lower the chance that it will be an aggro'ing resist.

Other than that, charisma will not help you enough to notice too much.

[astuce999]

It's really amazing after 12 years all the misconceptions that are still VERY present about bards... from people who play bards!

each post has been contradicted by another post in this very thread so far!

cheers!

[VincentVolaju]

Yeah, I am like more confused then ever now lmao. Everyone is saying something different almost lol. FML >_>.

[Mcbard]

I haven't parsed it, so I'm not sure if it's hard coded into the client or not but what dr4z3r is saying is true, most bard songs are type 2 and are, following the timeline, not supposed to stack with enchanter/shaman haste. I didn't think overhaste (type3) came out until Luclin, but I may be mistaken and it may have been Velious.

[Arkanjil]

v3 compositions came out with Velious and do stack with enchanter/shaman hastes. The other bard songs like Versus of Celerity are v2 like enc/shm and do not stack. Haste does have a cap though.

[Arkanjil]

It's really amazing after 12 years all the misconceptions that are still VERY present about bards... from people who play bards!

each post has been contradicted by another post in this very thread so far!

cheers!

The thing is that this server, while having some accurate coding, does have different formulas than live for calculating bard abilities. Haynar did an amazing job making bards very workable, especially since the server 1st launched, but it is not quite the same.

[jerus]

Bard overhaste (the ervaj line) is in Velious.

Pretty sure ervaj line was not overhaste but stackable haste. IE you have FBSS (21% haste) and have Celerity(50%) that's 71% haste. Ervaj adds on to that up to 100% total capped.

It wasn't until later that we got rizlona line and such which gave us the post 100% overcap haste.

There are 4 hastes, worn, spell, bard ervaj, and bard overhaste/clicky overhaste

That is from live right now, so just a matter of time, but if it stops in velious pretty sure bards will never see true overhaste.

[Dr4z3r]

It's really amazing after 12 years all the misconceptions that are still VERY present about bards... from people who play bards!

each post has been contradicted by another post in this very thread so far!

cheers!

I was told to use my unresistable resistance debuff on a mob last January. Definitely a Velious spell...

[Lazortag]

I've honestly found charisma to be nearly useless as a bard. Our mez/charm lasts 18 seconds max, and with very bad charisma (something in the 130s I believe) most of the time both of these will stick for full durations, unless a mob is within 1-2 levels of me in which case it will often break within the first few seconds if it breaks at all. If I had to do everything over I would put all of my starting stats into stam, and what little I had left into dex (song failures are fairly frequent, and dex is always good for procs).


You do realize the mezzes are all-or-nothing, right? There's no such thing as a partial-duration mez. Charisma has nothing to do with mezzes. How could you play a Bard as a main up to the mid-50's and not know this?

Anyways, Nalkin was right when he said to put all your points into stamina. If I were able to max my sta I'd probably have ~600 more HP than I do now (but that's mostly because my Sta is pathetically low), which is a pretty big deal if you ask me. At higher levels it really does make a difference. Who cares about missed notes? Just cast the song again.

[greatdane]

Ah, the hp difference isn't quite so high. Putting all your points in stamina will probably give you about 200-250ish more hp at 60, something like that. I forget the exact sta:hp conversion rate for bards, but it's probably a notch below the hybrids. It's still the best stat to put your points into for nearly any class (and certainly for non-casters), but it won't make a 600hp difference.

[Lazortag]

Ah, the hp difference isn't quite so high. Putting all your points in stamina will probably give you about 200-250ish more hp at 60, something like that. I forget the exact sta:hp conversion rate for bards, but it's probably a notch below the hybrids. It's still the best stat to put your points into for nearly any class (and certainly for non-casters), but it won't make a 600hp difference.

At level 60 I get 4HP per Sta. The 600 HP difference I was talking about was the difference between maxing my sta and keeping it how it currently is, but that's only because my sta is low. My point is that maxing Sta has a lot of potential, maxing Dex does not. I'd rather have 600 more HP than never miss a note. The 25 points you put into Sta will give you 100 HP in the long run, which is better than having 25 Dex imo.

[greatdane]

Is the ratio that low? But yeah, definitely not worth putting points in dex for pretty much any class except possibly warriors. I played an all-dex dwarf warrior for a while and was happy with it, but no other class needs the stat enough to spend irreversible creation points in it. Pretty much all classes should put all points in stamina, although with casters, it's a bit of a toss-up and depends on whether you intend to get high-end gear. You can go all-stamina on every single class and know that you didn't make a bad choice, at least.

[Dr4z3r]

Is the ratio that low? But yeah, definitely not worth putting points in dex for pretty much any class except possibly warriors. I played an all-dex dwarf warrior for a while and was happy with it, but no other class needs the stat enough to spend irreversible creation points in it. Pretty much all classes should put all points in stamina, although with casters, it's a bit of a toss-up and depends on whether you intend to get high-end gear. You can go all-stamina on every single class and know that you didn't make a bad choice, at least.

Slightly off-topic here but as an Ogre you don't necessarily want to put extra points in STA. Ogre SK, for instance, NEEDS 5 in AGI, because having <75 penalizes you.

Also, max-level INT casters get, what, 2hp / STA? Might be better to max INT with creation points then skew toward +hp gear with the slots freed up by creation points.

[greatdane]

I consider the 75 agi thing common knowledge, not something I'll mention in every one of the three daily "help create my char" threads :P but yeah, naturally. As for casters, it's not too difficult to max your int or wis, and it doesn't do you that much good even if you do max it. That's why some advocate putting points in stamina; it's pretty much the only other stat a caster should care about, and it's almost impossible to max for them. It's better than nothing.

[baalzy]

Next int caster I roll I'm probably going to put about half my points into str. I've wished on more than one occasion while leveling my necro that I had more str for loot hauling.

[Doktoor]

Alot of bad info in here, especially about CHA.

It was proven through tests (although late in the game, amazingly) that Dex does not affect missed notes, CHA does. This was not figured out till well into the game when bards started getting really high CHA. Tests were run with and without gear and it was proved beyond a doubt that CHA lowers missed note frequency. The post and test were posted on the Concert Hall.

So as far as the debate about STA vs CHA, its a personal choice. You will get 4 HP per STA at lvl 60 so you cant basically count how many HP you'll give up by going with CHA instead.

[falkun]

The post and test were posted on the Concert Hall.

http://images.cryhavok.org/d/14032-1/Pics+or+it+Didn_t+Happen.jpg

[PurelyElf]

I'd suggest all points into STA, because it's a difficult to raise stat. Bard gear tends to have a lot of CHA on it no matter what you do, and I really don't think it's useful anyway. CHA or DEX might affect missed notes, idk, especially here where bards have been messed with and are different from live.

When I make my bard, though, I may put half of the points into DEX. This is because more DEX makes for more weapon procs, and weapon procs are very useful in pvp. Particularly against casters. We got a +DEX song, but I think it's in luclin so we actually don't.

And about the melee dps, keep in mind that bards get a line of self-only haste songs that are much better than the group songs. So if you're duoing with a caster (or w/e), or trying to solo, your melee dps is better than an unhasted ranger without double attack.

[Mcbard]

I'd suggest all points into STA, because it's a difficult to raise stat. Bard gear tends to have a lot of CHA on it no matter what you do, and I really don't think it's useful anyway. CHA or DEX might affect missed notes, idk, especially here where bards have been messed with and are different from live.

When I make my bard, though, I may put half of the points into DEX. This is because more DEX makes for more weapon procs, and weapon procs are very useful in pvp. Particularly against casters. We got a +DEX song, but I think it's in luclin so we actually don't.

And about the melee dps, keep in mind that bards get a line of self-only haste songs that are much better than the group songs. So if you're duoing with a caster (or w/e), or trying to solo, your melee dps is better than an unhasted ranger without double attack.

Chant of Battle adds dex.

[PurelyElf]

Chant of Battle adds dex.

not enough dex to make it worth twisting imo..

[Mcbard]

not enough dex to make it worth twisting imo..

It adds 20 str 20 dex 5ac and stacks with haste. I always twist this song when grouping. It's very beneficial for other melee's in the group.

[Galanteer]

about charisma

it has been tested and tested and shown to effect a number of spells. Verant also continual stated that it had an effect.

Spells like lull, mez and charm make two checks

1st check is major vrs level, second is vrs charisma.

regarding mezz -the tests and verant's claims show that it is most important against reds, little effect on evens or blues.

for charm it helps get duration (of little importance to bards since max time is short). (charm the same critter ten times with 200 charisma, then with 100 and it is very apparent)

for lull it helps prevent the critical failure

no clue about missed notes since I never played a bard and thus never looked into that.

In the end level of critter and innate mr make up much more of the chance than does charisma.

add in: One warrior I knew wished he had put all his points into charisma at the start, since it was the hardest to max and spells like Divine Aura work off of it (not sure what era DA was)