A once and for all discussion about off hand delay

[Cippofra]

I spent most of my classic/kunark/velious career as a warrior. I've been reading a lot about this offhand delay stuff and here is one thing i absolutely remember. Multiple attacks were simultaneous. No matter what, every single time without fail. 2, 3, or 4 attacks were all right after one another. Any of you that played a dualwield/double attack class will remember this if you really think about it. Multiple attacks were always simultaneous in your chat window. As for exactly what it means, well lets discuss that. But this is something i remember distinctly

[Rejuvenation]

When your offhand delay is met, dual wield has a check, if it passes, you swing.

It is independent of primary weapon delay.

[Troy]

I spent most of my classic/kunark/velious career as a warrior. I've been reading a lot about this offhand delay stuff and here is one thing i absolutely remember. Multiple attacks were simultaneous. No matter what, every single time without fail. 2, 3, or 4 attacks were all right after one another. Any of you that played a dualwield/double attack class will remember this if you really think about it. Multiple attacks were always simultaneous in your chat window. As for exactly what it means, well lets discuss that. But this is something i remember distinctly

You are distinctly, absolutely, no matter what, once and for all, wrong.

(in general at least: If you happen to wield 2 weapons with the same delay then what you say is correct. In any other case you are wrong.)

[greatdane]

Off-hand attacks were independent of main-hand attacks. It is a fact, and anyone who knows better than to listen to baseless myths knows that this hilarious belief is just that. It's one of those countless things that a lot of people believed because some guy once said it and a lot of people didn't know better. The myth stems from the fact that people knew fast main-hand weapons were good because the skilled players said so but didn't know why, failing to understand that this was due to the damage bonus mechanic. Instead they dreamed up some imaginary feature where your off-hand weapon would inexplicably gain your main-hand weapon's delay.

There's a number of reasons why this makes no sense. Beyond the simple fact that it isn't true, think about what you're saying if you believe it:

1) You'd get outrageous ratios on certain weapons. Wurmslayer could be a 25/19 weapon with a Lamentation in main, Stave of Shielding a 17/18 weapon with a Jade Mace in main, and so on. These are completely absurd ratios for this time period.

2) Dual-wield would be staggeringly superior to two-handed weapons, way beyond any form of contest, if you could turn your off-hand weapon into a ratio better than 1:1 which isn't otherwise seen until Plane of Time.

3) There would be no reason for secondary-only weapons to have a ratio at all. Why would they care to give weapons like Swiftwind a ratio that corresponds to other weapons of its caliber?

4) Main-hand weapons without extremely low delay would be useless. Why would anyone use a main-hander with a delay above 20 if they could be using a 10/18 Seb Dirk or something? Faster off-hand weapons would likewise be of no value due to their correspondingly low damage. A 10/32 Sharkjaw Cutlass would be a better off-hand weapon than a 9/18 Jade Mace.

These are just some of the things that would be true if the myth was true, yet make no sense whatsoever and would completely unbalance the game. Anyone who actually played back then and doesn't suffer from amnesia will remember that none of the above were true. Anyone who has done even superficial research into combat mechanics knows that ratio is all that matters for your off-hand, and that slower off-hand weapons were often the best because their slow attack speed was usually compensated for with a better ratio to offset their lesser value as a main-hand weapon were the damage bonus rewards a faster weapon. This is why weapons like Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn were good: because it had a better ratio than many other weapons of its time period, not because you could turn it into a 20/17 weapon with a Kreizenn's Flame in primary.

Believing this myth is merely ignorant and naive. Insisting that it's true and that you remember it is retarded, because you've never seen it happen and you don't know what you're talking about. You're believing a lie so willingly that you can't discern it from memories of the exact opposite, and from what everyone could plainly see when playing dual-wield characters. Do any kind of research at all (outside of Allakhazam, the domain of imbeciles) and you'll find this myth busted. Go to thesteelwarrior and you'll find a hundred articles that explain that the only thing to care about for your off-hand weapon is the ratio. Ask anyone who actually played back then and wasn't 9 years old or started in PoP and lied about it here to gain credibility as a classic Everquester. There is absolutely nothing, neither in evidence nor in plain logic, that indicates that this is anything but one of those stupid things people mistakenly believed in the early days of Everquest. You cannot find proof of this off-hand feature, and that's because it never existed. You can find plenty of proof that it never existed. If you still believe it, you are unintelligent.

[Motec]

without writing that sort of wall of text.

you are wrong.

That is the end of discussion.

[Cippofra]

Hmm. I dont really remember saying that off hand delay matched main hand delay. Oh wait, I wonder if that's because I didn't? Obviously no discussion going on here. So we'll call it closed.

[greatdane]

Then what the hell else were you implying? It's sort of the only possible meaning unless you're suggesting something even more outlandish like main and off-hand delays averaging out or something. Seriously, believe the people who know what they're talking about. You clearly don't.

[Hasbinbad]

multiple attacks in the same hand happened (and still do happen) at the same time..

Dual wield is different than double/triple attack..

[Pescador]

This discussion has been done to death.

Tons of people tested this in classic by:

1. equipping wurmslayer in main hand
2. equipping jade mace in offhand
3. logging / observing the slash and crush attempts

Your crush attempts were not lined up with your slash attempts. The offhand wouldn't always fire faster than the mainhand because your dual weild skill determines if you even swing in the first place, but frequently you could see the jade mace swing twice before wurmslayer swings once (I'm not talking double attacks - I mean independent swings).

I played a bard on live so it was even easier for me to test since we don't get double attack. Equip a slow slashing weapon in mainhand, fast crushing weapon in offhand, and after a while it becomes very obvious that the offhand isn't "linked" to the mainhand in any way. The offhand is only linked to your dual weild skill, period.