Balance the Classes by Moving Existing Abilities

[Zuranthium]

By simply moving existing abilities between classes (not the best way to redesign, but the quickest), what would look most balanced and interesting? I think:

*Wizard: take all Enchanter mana-related spells. Take Magician bolt-type spells and Burnt Wood Staff.

*Magician: take Enchanter "Rune" line (including clickies). Take all Druid fire-type spells from Level 29+, because it doesn't make sense for Druids to have fire magic. Take damage shield potion from Shaman, turning it into a no-rent lore summon spell, and triggering on pets when handed to them. Holgresh Elder Beads, Reclaim Energy clickies, and Ro's Breath potion changed to Magician and Wizard only.

*Ranger: take Shaman pet spells up through Level 50 and Druid "Allure of the Wild" (Druids quickly replace that spell with Call of Karana and already have Beguile Animals beforehand, so they don't really need it). Take Kinesthetics and Duelist disciplines from Rogue, and Deftdance discipline from Bard.

*Druid: take Cleric heal-over-time spells and Shaman Level 55 pet. Slightly increase heal amount of Nature's Touch, because it's silly how Chloroblast is the same mana efficiency (more efficient when accounting for less fizzles, since it's a lower level spell).

*Paladin: take Cleric "Symbol" line, giving Paladin a stronger and more needed identity as HP buffers. Take Weaponshield discipline from Ranger.

*Cleric: change Divine Light spell to 300 mana, which somewhat reduces the sting of losing their heal-over-time spells (but of course they already have the insanely powerful Complete Heal; they'll be fine).

*Shadowknight: take resist debuff line from Magician and Malo from Shaman, giving SK's a necessary raid role (unresistible debuff). Take Counterattack and Deadeye disciplines from Rogue. Change Ivandyr's Hoop to be common drop SK-only Level 46 item with unlimited charges and 12 second recharge time. Move Shadownight pet spells to Necromancer (aka, deletes them from this class, for balance and so Rangers are uniquely the melee class with pets). Move summon corpse to Necromancer, making that ability uniquely theirs.

*Rogue: take Monk feign death, allowing this class to more appropriately be the stealthy pullers. Decrease defense and parry skillcaps, reinforcing how they should be the worst tanks of the melee classes.

*Shaman: add Double Attack and increase offense/weapon skillcaps. Shaman being the best melee caster makes sense, especially since they already facetank when soloing. The loss of their pet when soloing is made up for here. Take Eagle Strike skill and Ashenhand discipline from Monks, because they don't use that shit anyway.

In summary
Buffed: Wizard, Paladin, Ranger, Shadowknight, Druid
Approximately same power level: Rogue (but better at soloing now), Magician, Necromancer, Warrior
Slightly Nerfed: Cleric, Shaman, Bard
Moderately Nerfed: Enchanter, Monk

[Gilthanes]

I only want to add as far as Druids having Fire Magic goes, it actually does make sense that Druids have fire magic. From a roleplaying perspective, dungeons and dragons sort of set a precedent upon which many classes in EQ are built on, and that and many other reference material druids would wield fire magic.

As far as nature-lovers wielding fire magic, I present the argument of controlled burns which are necessary in forest management.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_burn

[eqravenprince]

*Enchanter They don't need fixed

*Wizard Give them indoor version of harmony

*Magician They don't need fixed

*Necromancer They don't need fixed



*Ranger They don't need fixed

*Rogue Make poisons available on spell bar with 1 minute recast time, no components.

*Monk They don't need fixed

*Bard They don't need fixed



*Druid They don't need fixed

*Cleric If anything reduce recast time on smite line, otherwise they don't need fixed

*Shaman They don't need fixed



*Paladin They don't need fixed

*Shadowknight They don't need fixed

*Warrior Allow bind wound to 100% starting at level 1

[Jimjam]

I love these kind of threads!

I’m going to do something a little different - I’m gonna tweak stun to fix the classes ( a bit ).

First fix is melee stuns will now generate aggro similar to spell stuns. This pushes the focus of melee aggro generation onto shield bashing. Relatedly Shield of thr Slain Unicorn acts as a shield (like the knight epics) as well as a piercing weapon.

Second fix is wizard PCs get to ignore the cap on duration for player cast stuns so their tishan/markar line of stuns will last up to eight seconds.

Knock back nukes and melee attacks (like kick) will also have a much improved ability to interrupt spell casting (both for npc and pc).

[Dural_Levant]

*Warrior Allow bind wound to 100% starting at level 1



THIS!

[Crede]

I'd be ok with Enchanter losing all mind buffs/taps and giving to Wizard. I'd also like to see shaman's give torpor to druids and make monk epic a worn haste like ranger/rogue.

[Dural_Levant]

I love these kind of threads!

I’m going to do something a little different - I’m gonna tweak stun to fix the classes ( a bit ).

First fix is melee stuns will now generate aggro similar to spell stuns. This pushes the focus of melee aggro generation onto shield bashing. Relatedly Shield of thr Slain Unicorn acts as a shield (like the knight epics) as well as a piercing weapon.

Second fix is wizard PCs get to ignore the cap on duration for player cast stuns so their tishan/markar line of stuns will last up to eight seconds.

Knock back nukes and melee attacks (like kick) will also have a much improved ability to interrupt spell casting (both for npc and pc).

I really like your suggestions for Melee stuns and attacks like kick, especially how they relate to interrupting spell casting. It will make the roles much more engaging and active.

[Knuckle]

Fun thread but to OP giving rogue FD is a joke.

[Knuckle]

Fun change for warrior - Allow equipping 2h weapon + shield.

[Kich867]

I really think the only two or three classes that need genuine updates are Warriors, Wizards, and Rangers.

Warriors need some function that generates threat so that they can do their job without relying on proc weapons to shore up a game design flaw.

Wizards don't need clarity, if anything reduce the cooldown and improve spells like Harvest to help them get mana back. But more importantly, the fact that Wizards are just super clunky in groups is their primary issue. They deal damage in massive chunks which isn't conducive to group-play and even if they just cast one spell per mob they're running OOM with an efficient group. And if they only cast one spell per mob they're probably far below the damage output of any melee in the party on that mob.

Reduce the threat of Wizard spells and let them cast Harvest like every 1.5-2 minutes or something.

And for Rangers: Bows should function like 2-handers scaling off of Dexterity and the "Deal double damage to stationary non-rooted targets" effect should be in place from level 1 for them instead of...what is it..like 52 or something? That's all. Nerf Trueshot if you need to but just let me live my bow dps ranger fantasy.

[Knuckle]

I really think the only two or three classes that need genuine updates are Warriors, Wizards, and Rangers.

Warriors need some function that generates threat so that they can do their job without relying on proc weapons to shore up a game design flaw.

Wizards don't need clarity, if anything reduce the cooldown and improve spells like Harvest to help them get mana back. But more importantly, the fact that Wizards are just super clunky in groups is their primary issue. They deal damage in massive chunks which isn't conducive to group-play and even if they just cast one spell per mob they're running OOM with an efficient group. And if they only cast one spell per mob they're probably far below the damage output of any melee in the party on that mob.

Reduce the threat of Wizard spells and let them cast Harvest like every 1.5-2 minutes or something.

And for Rangers: Bows should function like 2-handers scaling off of Dexterity and the "Deal double damage to stationary non-rooted targets" effect should be in place from level 1 for them instead of...what is it..like 52 or something? That's all. Nerf Trueshot if you need to but just let me live my bow dps ranger fantasy.

Warriors not having snap aggro while supporting the highest mitigation is a very everquest thing that should stay in game as is.

[Tewaz]

I like these ideas.

I love enchanter, but moving a few of their spell lines to Wiz and Mage would really help those classes.

But...for these types of changes to really have an effect, the exp rate for duos to full groups needs a buff. The game is just to easy solo at this point and the strong solo classes are the most popular by far. I don't think it needs to be as powerful as red (280% buff for a full group I think) but a buff should drive groups to form.

[Kich867]

Warriors not having snap aggro while supporting the highest mitigation is a very everquest thing that should stay in game as is.

If anything, Knights should be better at mitigation than they are. Warriors, baseline, cannot do their job. I'm not talking about the current understanding of the game, we all know how to get around it, I don't care about that.

If a group of new players decided to spin up a few characters, and someone picks a Warrior thinking they'll be the tank, they're in for a bad time. The threat mechanics in the game are completely asinine and it is inexcusable that Warriors can't actually tank in the overwhelming majority of the game's content at a baseline.

[Tewaz]

If a group of new players decided to spin up a few characters, and someone picks a Warrior thinking they'll be the tank, they're in for a bad time. The threat mechanics in the game are completely asinine and it is inexcusable that Warriors can't actually tank in the overwhelming majority of the game's content at a baseline.

This.

Explaining to new players that Warriors can't hold aggro and the high level ones have bags filled with items that gain them aggro even though that wasn't the original point of these items.

Also, I think the game would be so much better if the raid healing mechanic wasn't CH chain ONLY.

[ezigrelnos]

Wizards don't need clarity... even if they just cast one spell per mob they're running OOM with an efficient group

so why not just give them clarity instead of only enchanters having it?

wizards are more convenience than optimization, they delete mobs faster than any other class, CC with aggro clicky/root/stun plus evacs/ports so why not let them have an extremely convenient group buff to round it out?

at the very least the stigma of wizards being useless in groups would go away when everyone is begging for crack.

also my idea is to give Rangers Feign Death so they can be competitive with SKs and Monks

[Kich867]

This.

Explaining to new players that Warriors can't hold aggro and the high level ones have bags filled with items that gain them aggro even though that wasn't the original point of these items.

Also, I think the game would be so much better if the raid healing mechanic wasn't CH chain ONLY.

Agreed, even the devs noted that Complete Heal was an atrocious design. It completely boxes in their design space for raid bosses. Every single raid boss has to contend with the fact that the tank can be fully healed over and over and over again in an extremely mana efficient manner. This gave them basically one knob to turn. Complete Heal is _probably_ the worst game design choice they made to be honest.

[loramin]

Mages: Give them root (or snare) and make their epic piece drop off every Magi spawn.

I swear, just a level 4 spell and a drop rate change and you would see a ton more people playing Magician.

[Jimjam]

so why not just give them clarity instead of only enchanters having it?

wizards are more convenience than optimization, they delete mobs faster than any other class, CC with aggro clicky/root/stun plus evacs/ports so why not let them have an extremely convenient group buff to round it out?

at the very least the stigma of wizards being useless in groups would go away when everyone is begging for crack.

also my idea is to give Rangers Feign Death so they can be competitive with SKs and Monks


Wizards are all about personal power and overwhelming show of force, not tricks of the mind. The nukes, pbaoes and aoe snares are a good start, and I think any other spells should play to that rather than buffing friends (which is what clarity does). They don't subtly manipulate - they beat physics into submission.

Going with the original post's theme, I'd suggest moving the shaman's PBAoE slow to wizard. Maybe even make it into a rain - to give the feel that the wizard has chosen a point of the battlefield and overwhelmed time itself to make all enemies in that area attack more slowly.

I think stopping time was what their 8 second duration stuns were meant to convey - but of course player stun durations got nerfed early to cap at 4 seconds on due to Whirl til you Hurl abuse, making the wizard stuns completely unmentionable. At least NPC wizards can still stun properly!!

Agreed, even the devs noted that Complete Heal was an atrocious design. It completely boxes in their design space for raid bosses. Every single raid boss has to contend with the fact that the tank can be fully healed over and over and over again in an extremely mana efficient manner. This gave them basically one knob to turn. Complete Heal is _probably_ the worst game design choice they made to be honest.


Well, in the context of when cheal was made (level 50 cap, max hp very limited, naggy/vox/kedge not itemised yet and planes not added) it was fine... just when you got tanks buffing over 5.5k hp with easily attainable gear, and far higher with top gear (some bosses giving 900 hp worth of gear to a character (cough vulak)) CH just got ridiculously op. It's a nightmare on the flipside too for NPC giants/dragons with over 10k hp casting it again and again too because they can't be stun interrupted.

My suggestion to fix it is limit the spell being cast in certain (unexpansioned) locations, like manastone's manaconvert spell.

[Allishia]

If anything, Knights should be better at mitigation than they are. Warriors, baseline, cannot do their job. I'm not talking about the current understanding of the game, we all know how to get around it, I don't care about that.

If a group of new players decided to spin up a few characters, and someone picks a Warrior thinking they'll be the tank, they're in for a bad time. The threat mechanics in the game are completely asinine and it is inexcusable that Warriors can't actually tank in the overwhelming majority of the game's content at a baseline.

Just root everything and war is fine /nod

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mages: Give them root (or snare) and make their epic piece drop off every Magi spawn.

I swear, just a level 4 spell and a drop rate change and you would see a ton more people playing Magician.

Agreed, that would help a lot. Pet issues need to be fixed too so they can be used more often.

[Kich867]

so why not just give them clarity instead of only enchanters having it?

wizards are more convenience than optimization, they delete mobs faster than any other class, CC with aggro clicky/root/stun plus evacs/ports so why not let them have an extremely convenient group buff to round it out?

at the very least the stigma of wizards being useless in groups would go away when everyone is begging for crack.

also my idea is to give Rangers Feign Death so they can be competitive with SKs and Monks

Because that would be like giving Rogues more utility to me. I don't think Wizards need to offer utility, I think they should offer damage, they just shouldn't be so clunky about providing it.

I'm also, personally, a fan of keeping niche things niche and thematically like the idea of a Harvest line of spells for Wizards as their own personal mana generating system.

If wizards could safely nuke like...once or twice per mob without having to worry about pulling aggro even when its below 50% health, they'd be fine. My 35 wizard deals 310 damage per nuke, the average mob HP for things I'm killing are probably around 1200-1500hp. If I could contribute to dealing 20-25% of the damage dealt per mob in a full group, this would be fine.

But the problems add up in different ways in different directions. In small groups you need to nuke more often, which means you have a problem with mana. In full groups you only need to nuke once but since mobs die so quickly the tank has less threat to work with and you can pull off of them even if you wait awhile before casting.

So I feel like the only real issue with wizards is some combination of: their mana efficiency and/or their Harvest line being insufficient as a means of generating mana, and their nukes generating too much threat.

[Tewaz]

These are good wizard thoughts. I feel like Wizards wouldn't be desired in groups still if every one of their spells did 0 hate. It's a rough design.

[Jimjam]

As wanderers of nature in tune with the physicality of nature, it does make some sense for rangers to have a 'play dead' skill. I mean I wouldn't take FD away from monks for it though - monks across the real world mythologically can do all sorts of things to appear dead - slowing pulse, going cold, etc.

Playing dead does seem like a rogueish trick too. I surely can see rogues deserving something like that too - but perhaps at a lower skill cap than monks since they won't be able to do the crazy stuff like slowing their pulse to near zero, stopping breathing for extended periods, etc. I can't decide whether rogues or rangers should be more proficient at play dead. Maybe rogues get it earlier on, but rangers get a higher skill cap at 60.

[Keebz]

OP took FD from monks and called them "slightly nerfed" lol

[loramin]

Agreed, that would help a lot. Pet issues need to be fixed too so they can be used more often.

Oh yeah: Verant made the genius (:rolleyes:) decision to make pets unviable in the most important end-game zone (TOV ... plus a few others).

If we're making wishes, I would definitely wish to be able to use my class as designed on (Velious) raids.

[Zuranthium]

Wizards are all about personal power and overwhelming show of force, not tricks of the mind. The nukes, pbaoes and aoe snares are a good start, and I think any other spells should play to that rather than buffing friends (which is what clarity does). They don't subtly manipulate

Wizards are described as seekers of knowledge in EQ. I think mana buffing and tapping can fit into that.

A big problem with Wizard in the design of EQ at higher levels is they can't kill things super fast like they could at lower levels. Spamming their best damage spell on recharge, it's still going to take quite some time against all these 10k+ HP MOBs. Even if they were to have amazing personal mana regen, they'd basically just be like a Rogue in group play. A better design for the class is being able to do huge bursts of damage with a bit of downtime, so not the best sustained DPS, but being able to make meaningful plays. Crowd control being so crazy strong in the game is also somewhat of an impediment to "Burst DPS" being more meaningful. And of course, the Play Nice Policy sterilizing the game world.

I mean I wouldn't take FD away from monks for it though - monks across the real world mythologically can do all sorts of things to appear dead - slowing pulse, going cold, etc.

Playing dead does seem like a rogueish trick too. I surely can see rogues deserving something like that too

Slowing pulse and stuff is totally different than Feign Death in EQ. That ability is definitely much more in line with Rogues, a trickery and stealth mechanism.

OP took FD from monks and called them "slightly nerfed" lol

They are in the "moderately nerfed" category. Velious era Monk has amazing stats, they don't need FD. Their mitigation and DPS is enough, particularly with Rogues losing their offensive Disciplines it would put Monks in a great spot still, they would be the top DPS for Kunark raid fights.

Fun change for warrior - Allow equipping 2h weapon + shield.

I'd rather see Bash improved, to make 1 hand weapon + shield a more worthwhile thing.

Mages: Give them root (or snare) and make their epic piece drop off every Magi spawn.

I swear, just a level 4 spell and a drop rate change and you would see a ton more people playing Magician.

Mage epic is ridiculous and should definitely be more obtainable, but I highly disagree with giving them Root, too many classes already have it, there needs to be some differentiation. I also wish the Epic was a mega focus item, so they could keep using the different pet types as the situation calls for.

even the devs noted that Complete Heal was an atrocious design.

Cleric should be soooo much more interesting of a class to play.

[Homesteaded]

Back in the day people gave the warrior time to build aggro. This is the issue on p99.

[astuce999]

Here's my (10 year old) take on how EQ should be re-balanced :)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105887

cheers,

Astuce

[Dural_Levant]

I'd rather see Bash improved, to make 1 hand weapon + shield a more worthwhile thing.



Agree with this so much. I would go as far as to increase the damage that Bash does significantly, make it interrupt spell casting %100 of the time and add a significant chance to stun for like 3 seconds.

In addition, perhaps add a discipline called something along the lines of "Shield Stance" that offers a MASSIVE boost to AC for like 10 seconds or so.

[Kich867]

Agree with this so much. I would go as far as to increase the damage that Bash does significantly, make it interrupt spell casting %100 of the time and add a significant chance to stun for like 3 seconds.

In addition, perhaps add a discipline called something along the lines of "Shield Stance" that offers a MASSIVE boost to AC for like 10 seconds or so.

It hurts pretty bad to use Bash to interrupt something only to have them instantly start re-casting, unless their spell is like an 8 second cast interrupting it just doesn't matter. And agreed, idk if its actually true, but supposedly Bash was meant to generate a lot of threat and wasn't fixed for years.

IDK if that's true though, that'd be insane negligence to overlook that for years without ever realizing it wasn't working. My gut says that they just never thought about it, never thought much about how warriors had no reasonable way to generate threat, never really thought about any of this shit. I think balance was never a concept in their mind outside of really stand-out things like their obviously huge fear that Archery would be way too strong and kept it completely shit, they just built class fantasies.

[VesperVapes]

I don't get these threads. Isn't point of the server to recreate the 1999 experience?

[Jimjam]

I don't get these threads. Isn't point of the server to recreate the 1999 experience?

Its just a whimsical thought exercise. It’s not meant to change anything.

The point is the fun of thinking about and discussing it.

Are there any abilities you’d swap?

[radbeard]

I don't think wizards should get the clarity like because they are not at all a buffing class, but I think they should get more efficient meditate. Let them start off right away with 1 mana/10med skill. At lvl 50 make it /9 and at level 60 /8.

That still makes their sustained DPS pretty poor but drastically lowers downtime

[Kich867]

I don't think wizards should get the clarity like because they are not at all a buffing class, but I think they should get more efficient meditate. Let them start off right away with 1 mana/10med skill. At lvl 50 make it /9 and at level 60 /8.

That still makes their sustained DPS pretty poor but drastically lowers downtime

I really liked someone's suggestion that Wizards have either a self-buff or a buff they can provide that reduces the mana cost of spells.

Maybe even a combo mana cost reduction / threat reduction buff, which would be really interesting. I don't think that impedes on the design space of enchanters, it doesn't improve your downtime, it just prolongs your uptime, which feels in tune with wizards to me?

[Danth]

that'd be insane negligence to overlook that for years without ever realizing it wasn't working.

It's true. It was worse than mere negligence, it was Verant staff thinking they knew everything, assuming the players were a bunch of idiots, and hence they ignored the reports. Same thing happened with alchemy at first 'cept they happened to notice that one a little sooner. They did finally notice it before they ever fixed it, just by the time they noticed it they also noticed players were making do anyway and actually liked dual-wielding warriors so they let it be.

[Kich867]

It's true. It was worse than mere negligence, it was Verant staff thinking they knew everything, assuming the players were a bunch of idiots, and hence they ignored the reports. Same thing happened with alchemy at first 'cept they happened to notice that one a little sooner. They did finally notice it before they ever fixed it, just by the time they noticed it they also noticed players were making do anyway and actually liked dual-wielding warriors so they let it be.

That is god damn wild.

[radbeard]

I really liked someone's suggestion that Wizards have either a self-buff or a buff they can provide that reduces the mana cost of spells.

Maybe even a combo mana cost reduction / threat reduction buff, which would be really interesting. I don't think that impedes on the design space of enchanters, it doesn't improve your downtime, it just prolongs your uptime, which feels in tune with wizards to me?

Yeah this also seems fine. You could do a combo of this idea and make wizard specializations extra effective so that they lowered mana costs by 30% or something instead of the standard 10% (or whatever it is)

[Jimjam]

That is god damn wild.

IIRC it was caught in the run up to Dragons of Norrath expansion, at which point the meta and itemisation had settled on the way things had been done, so the devs were too scared to fix it in case they unsettled all the existing item balance. That is why there was a plethora of Furious Bash items added around then, and a great focus on Shield Block AA.

[Zuranthium]

It was worse than mere negligence, it was Verant staff thinking they knew everything, assuming the players were a bunch of idiots, and hence they ignored the reports. Same thing happened with alchemy at first 'cept they happened to notice that one a little sooner. They did finally notice it before they ever fixed it, just by the time they noticed it they also noticed players were making do anyway and actually liked dual-wielding warriors so they let it be.

Even better is their forum community representative 'Absor' who would constantly tell people they were wrong and insult them, when the majority of the time he was wrong about something ingame that wasn't working properly. They had to replace him eventually (although I wondered if it was still him, on a different account name, and forced to change his behavior).

[Cen]

My idea for wizards would be to just give them two lines of DD. One that's absolutely free of mana cost, but good sustained damage, and one that burns your mana for insane burst until out of mana.

[Jibartik]

My idea for wizards would be to just give them two lines of DD. One that's absolutely free of mana cost, but good sustained damage, and one that burns your mana for insane burst until out of mana.

/autocast

pew pew pew pew

[Raj]

I don't get these threads. Isn't point of the server to recreate the 1999 experience?

Total addiction to evercrack leads to evercrack philosophers and some of the Evercrackheads seen in this thread daydreaming at work, at meals, going to bed etc thinking about insane ways that would make their favorite drug "EVEN better!"

"We're not hopelessly addicted - its just a hobby we're REALLY passionate about."

[Zuranthium]

PvE-only Everquest has been boring for a long time, it's more interesting to talk about what the game could be, what it was supposed to be, and what it was actually like in 1999-2001. I would only play if friends who haven't played before wanted to get into the game, so I could help them to experience a bit of the magic for the first time, and so they could have a better understanding of some things that have been lost in MMORPG's.

[Dural_Levant]

Total addiction to evercrack leads to evercrack philosophers and some of the Evercrackheads seen in this thread daydreaming at work, at meals, going to bed etc thinking about insane ways that would make their favorite drug "EVEN better!"

"We're not hopelessly addicted - its just a hobby we're REALLY passionate about."

I'm at work right now... I feel so called out by this.