Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Toxigen]

i cannot believe this asinine argument went 250 pages

you spergs never cease to amaze

[cd288]

Please explain the other benefits of DPS.

Lmao this is still so amazing. This guy freaked out at everyone about how Shaman does better DPS than Mage. Spent weeks going like "I provided data that Shaman does better DPS than Mage"

Then when Allyshia parsed and her Mage did better DPS, DSM changes the argument to "better DPS is meaningless" and is now pretending like he never argued that Shaman's DPS was better than mage

This is awesome to watch lmao

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lmao this is still so amazing. This guy freaked out at everyone about how Shaman does better DPS than Mage. Spent weeks going like "I provided data that Shaman does better DPS than Mage"

Then when Allyshia parsed and her Mage did better DPS, DSM changes the argument to "better DPS is meaningless" and is now pretending like he never argued that Shaman's DPS was better than mage

This is awesome to watch lmao

Lol still wrong. Still can't read. Still can't show where you think any of this happened. My argument hasn't changed, only the straw men you keep trying to create in desparation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

For reference, Fungi King has around 18000 HP. That means a group is saving roughly 9 seconds from the extra 50 DPS. For this to give you an extra spawn, you would need to kill Fungi King around 200 times in a row, or camp him for 100 hours straight.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cd288]

Lol still wrong. Still can't read. My argument hasn't changed, only the straw men you keep trying to create.

Really? So why did you spend Friday arguing with me about Shaman doing better DPS than Mage? Oh right "just a strawman"

Lmao

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Really? So why did you spend Friday arguing with me about Shaman doing better DPS than Mage? Oh right "just a strawman"

Lmao

You still can't quote where you think this happened lol. And you won't, because it will make you look silly when you realize you just read it wrong.

You are probably referring to when I show that root/rotting as a Shaman can match a Mage's DPS, because you are attacking multiple targets at once. That doesn't mean a Shaman will ever out-DPS a Mage on a single target.

Epic + 1x Bane of Nife per mob is 34 DPS over 90 seconds. If you are root/rotting 4 mobs, that is 136 DPS, which is higher than a Mage with their pet and restrained nuking. You spend a total of 1700 mana, which can be recovered in roughly 110 seconds.

[cd288]

You still can't quote where you think this happened lol. And you won't, because it will make you look silly when you realize you just read it wrong.

You are probably referring to when I show that root/rotting as a Shaman can match a Mage's DPS, because you are attacking multiple targets at once. That doesn't mean a Shaman will ever out-DPS a Mage on a single target.

See this is your strategy lol. Change arguments multiple times and write 1000 posts in a single thread so that it's a massive exercise to go back through like 100 pages of comments to find the time when you were using a specific argument (out of the like 7 different arguments you've used in this thread).

You literally spent multiple posts talking about how you could out DPS a Mage, including with just Ice Strike and a pet lol.

There's a lot of people who I don't really like on these forums, but at least I can respect them when they argue in good faith. You on the other hand literally know you've made argument X before but you sit there and say you haven't...just sad man.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

See this is your strategy lol. Change arguments multiple times and write 1000 posts in a single thread so that it's a massive exercise to go back through like 100 pages of comments to find the time when you were using a specific argument (out of the like 7 different arguments you've used in this thread).

You literally spent multiple posts talking about how you could out DPS a Mage, including with just Ice Strike and a pet lol.

There's a lot of people who I don't really like on these forums, but at least I can respect them when they argue in good faith. You on the other hand literally know you've made argument X before but you sit there and say you haven't...just sad man.

This is not my strategy at all. What happens is 10 people start a discussion with me, and they change the topic. I respond to them, which means multiple discussions are going on simultaneously. The only reason why this thread is so long is because the trolls have amassed 1000 posts of memes and insults between them.

I never said you could out DPS a Mage with Ice Strike and a Pet. That is just 100% wrong. You will not find a single post where I said this. It is scary how much your mind is warping what I say.

The Ice Strike and pet example simply shows what a Shaman can do if they are DPS in a chain pulling situation. The point is to compare that to a Mage's DPS, not to show it will out DPS a Mage lol.

Again, the only situation where I said a Shaman could match DPS is when root/rotting. Epic + 1x Bane of Nife per mob is 34 DPS over 90 seconds. If you are root/rotting 4 mobs, that is 136 DPS. With pet that is around 154 DPS. So you can get well into a Mage's DPS range under this situation. Root/rotting was brought up because I was simply pointing out a Shaman could do that if a group is clearing trash that could be chain pulled and killed quickly. But that isn't single target scenarios. A Shaman will not out DPS a Mage when doing single target work.

[cyxthryth]

You are probably referring to when I irrelevantly show that root/rotting as a Shaman can match a Mage's DPS, because you are attacking multiple targets at once, which I copy/pasted myltiple times even though it was irrelevant to the discussion. That doesn't mean a Shaman will ever out-DPS a Mage on a single target which I have been backed into a corner and (intentionally or otherwise) admitted.

Hehe. :)

[Ripqozko]

There is 0 chance he is in a relationship, hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is 0 chance he is in a relationship, hope that helps.

Lol this is such a bad attempt at an insult. At least you have realized your Warder Loot is simply too awful to brag about. A childish insult like this is a step up from that at least.

Try harder next time please. If you work hard enough, you might be able to get up to middle school level insults.

[Karanis]

Please ignore DeathsSilkyMist in this thread. He is just trolling. He has accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just retardation.

18756

[Ripqozko]

Lol this is such a bad attempt at an insult. At least you have realized your Warder Loot is simply too awful to brag about. A childish insult like this is a step up from that at least.

Try harder next time please. If you work hard enough, you might be able to get up to middle school level insults.

So this is a no then

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So this is a no then

As with every other troll in this thread, you have no proof of your claim:)

[Ripqozko]

As with every other troll in this thread, you have no proof of your claim:)

We can tell by your response, the data is proven.

[cyxthryth]

As with every other troll in this thread, you have no proof of your claim:)

The problem is you seem to believe that others are trolls simply because you claim they are. Reality does not work like that. They'd have to actually be trolls hehe.:) This really isn't hard.

This irrefutable fact is just one among many that you have ignored, misunderstood or (intentionally or otherwise) misconstrued your understanding of, and I once again submit this entire thread/post history as evidence. You have not provided - and cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Ripqozko]

Yea he dodged it so we know he has no relationship. Who could deal with him on a daily holy balls.

[TomisFeline]

do you think the fact that we are in a recession changes the quality of these posts, or the general cadence of the thread?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea he dodged it so we know he has no relationship. Who could deal with him on a daily holy balls.

It is not dodging to refuse to give out personal information to prove an internet troll wrong.

Please don't give out personal information. It's probably news to you that revealing personal information online isn't always a smart move.

As with the entire thread, you have no evidence to prove your claim one way or another. It's not relevant to the discussion either.

I am really glad to see you stopped bragging about your participation trophy Warder Loot. This is a minor improvement, but still quite pathetic.

[Ripqozko]

It is not dodging to refuse to give out personal information to prove an internet troll wrong.

Please don't give out personal information. It's probably news to you that revealing personal information online isn't always a smart move.

As with the entire thread, you have no evidence to prove your claim one way or another. It's not relevant to the discussion either.

I am really glad to see you stopped bragging about your participation trophy Warder Loot. This is a minor improvement, but still quite pathetic.

Yea we know the answer now, all good

[eqravenprince]

I could deal with DSM all day every day over the insults and general rude behavior. If I ever want to prove the earth was flat, I want DSM on my side of the debate. He provides a shit ton of data which takes a ton of time. He provides different perspectives (although some say moving the goalpost). I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with. Best is whatever you personally think best means.

[cyxthryth]

I am really glad to see you stopped bragging about your participation trophy Warder Loot.

Why did you seemingly feel the need to capitalize "warder loot", as evidenced by the above quote hehe? :)

In the event that this question is ignored I submit it as further evidence of DSM ignoring questions directly posed to him. :)

[Ripqozko]

I could deal with DSM all day every day over the insults and general rude behavior. If I ever want to prove the earth was flat, I want DSM on my side of the debate. He provides a shit ton of data which takes a ton of time. He provides different perspectives (although some say moving the goalpost). I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with. Best is whatever you personally think best means.

Howdy VQ guildy, +5 dkp to you sir

[eqravenprince]

Howdy VQ guildy, +5 dkp to you sir

You are proving my point. I only know of him from the p99 forum. This is the type of snarky response I was expecting from the crowd that's been insulting him.

[Ripqozko]

You are proving my point. I only know of him from the p99 forum. This is the type of snarky response I was expecting from the crowd that's been insulting him.

+10 dkp

[cd288]

I could deal with DSM all day every day over the insults and general rude behavior. If I ever want to prove the earth was flat, I want DSM on my side of the debate. He provides a shit ton of data which takes a ton of time. He provides different perspectives (although some say moving the goalpost). I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with. Best is whatever you personally think best means.

I mean sure I would love DSM on my side of the debate too, because it means he will never admit to being wrong and will just act like water on a rock lol. And when one of his arguments is proven wrong he just switches...see the argument about DPS which went from "Shamans are better DPS than Mages and none of you can/have provide(d) data showing that they're not" to "oh someone provided data showing that they're not...well them being better DPS is irrelevant anyways!!!!"

It's a joke lol

[Ripqozko]

I'm pretty sure all of us want him in an argument he would post 1300 times while we sleep and never lose

[Toxigen]

imagine DSM in the UN as a speaker and elf lawyer

[cyxthryth]

I could deal with DSM all day every day over the insults and general rude behavior.

You have not provided - and you cannot provide - evidence that others are being insulting and rude and that - by the same measure - DSM is not.

If I ever want to prove the earth was flat, I want DSM on my side of the debate.

I am not sure what point you think you are making here, but thank you for confirming you would like to have DSM on your side to argue for infactual/incorrect positions that are contrary to reality, such as that the earth is flat.

He provides a shit ton of data which takes a ton of time.

You have provided no evidence for how long DSM spends collecting data, and you have admitted that you would want DSM on your side to argue for infactual/incorrect positions that are contrary to reality, such as that the earth is flat. Data that is false and/or irrelevant is not significant or relevant to this (or any) discussion, nor is the amount of time required to gather said false or irrelevant data.

He provides different perspectives (although some say moving the goalpost). I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with. Best is whatever you personally think best means.

Why should anybody who is interested in discussing reality care about "different perspectives" when those perspectives are false such as that the earth is flat or that a Shaman will provide more DPS than a Mage in a high level fast-paced killing DPS group?

[eqravenprince]

You have not provided - and you cannot provide - evidence that others are being insulting and rude and that - by the same measure - DSM is not.


You can find insult(s) at DSM on just about every page. But why should I provide evidence, when DSM does, he just gets insulted more.

[eqravenprince]

I am not sure what point you think you are making here, but thank you for confirming you would like to have DSM on your side to argue for infactual/incorrect positions that are contrary to reality, such as that the earth is flat.


I want someone who is open minded and takes time to question the norm with actual data. What harm is there in that.

[Karanis]

DSM? Open minded?

18759

[Ripqozko]

DSM? Open minded?

18759

[Karanis]

Here's a brief summary of the past 250 pages:

18760

[eqravenprince]

Why should anybody who is interested in discussing reality care about "different perspectives" when those perspectives are false such as that the earth is flat or that a Shaman will provide more DPS than a Mage in a high level fast-paced killing DPS group?

I'll shut up about DSM if you can find a single post where he says Shamans provide more DPS than a Mage. His point is it is not that big of a difference in DPS of Mage vs Shaman, plus you get all the extras a shaman provide over a mage. It's not that hard to understand what DSM is saying.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll shut up about DSM if you can find a single post where he says Shamans provide more DPS than a Mage. His point is it is not that big of a difference in DPS of Mage vs Shaman, plus you get all the extras a shaman provide over a mage. It's not that hard to understand what DSM is saying.

Thanks for the support. You are correct about my points.

In terms of Mage and Shaman DPS, they keep referring to when I discuss root/rotting.

A Shaman could match Mage DPS when root/rotting. Epic + 1x Bane of Nife per mob is 34 DPS over 90 seconds. If you are root/rotting 4 mobs, that is 136 DPS. With pet that is around 154 DPS. So you can get well into a Mage's DPS range under this situation.

They keep conflating the specific situation of root/rotting with me claiming Shamans generally do more DPS than a Mage, or Shamans out-DPS a Mage on a single target.

[eqravenprince]

Here's a brief summary of the past 250 pages:

18760

Probably closer to this

[cyxthryth]

I'll shut up about DSM if you can find a single post where he says Shamans provide more DPS than a Mage. His point is it is not that big of a difference in DPS of Mage vs Shaman, plus you get all the extras a shaman provide over a mage. It's not that hard to understand what DSM is saying.

I simply posed a hypothetical question to you, I will repeat it here:

Why should anybody who is interested in discussing reality care about "different perspectives" when those perspectives are false such as that the earth is flat or that a Shaman will provide more DPS than a Mage in a high level fast-paced killing DPS group?

Are you going to answer the hypothetical question?


They keep conflating the specific situation of root/rotting with me claiming Shamans generally do more DPS than a Mage, or Shamans out-DPS a Mage on a single target.

You have provided no evidence that "they keep conflating the specific situation of root/rotting with me claiming Shamans generally do more DPS than a Mage, or Shamans out-DPS a Mage on a single target".

You provided (irrelevant) data/logs of the specific situation of your Shaman root/rotting and your Shaman & pet DPS solo/not-in-a-4-caster/priest-DPS-group, which has been pointed out to you as irrelevant (multiple times by multiple posters) to the discussion because capturing/recording that data in a solo setting removes variables from the equation that exist - and are inescapable - in a group setting, and thus would affect your Shaman's DPS ("skew the data" in your own verbiage) when comparing solo vs group performance(s); your own posts (intentionally or otherwise) admit this hehe. :) You provided no (relevant) data, such as data collected in the specifically relevant/appropriate environment/context for this discussion (being in a high level fast-paced killing 4-man caster/priest DPS group). This really isn't hard. If you would like to provide relevant data the ball is in your court. :)

[cyxthryth]

plus you get all the extras a shaman provide over a mage. It's not that hard to understand what DSM is saying.

"All the extras a Shaman provide" are simply less beneficial to an Enc/Enc/Cleric group consisting of players who are good at the game (as has been specified multiple times by multiple posters) than the extra DPS of Mage (as has been stated multiple times by multiple posters) for the reasons already stated (multiple times by multiple posters). And per his own admission these "benefits" are not used for majority of the mobs.

You are also just being silly. You wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that.

I am not sure why DSM's posts seemingly indicate that he believes that Shaman's (irrelevant) ability to Malo/Slow are worth mention in the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, when by his own admission these "benefits" will not even be utilized for the vast majority of mobs being killed hehe. :)

[cd288]

I'll shut up about DSM if you can find a single post where he says Shamans provide more DPS than a Mage. His point is it is not that big of a difference in DPS of Mage vs Shaman, plus you get all the extras a shaman provide over a mage. It's not that hard to understand what DSM is saying.

If you'd like to spend your time going back through his 900 posts in this thread to find the section where he was doing that, be my guest. It is there, it will just take you awhile to find. As someone who seems to have jumped back into the thread recently, it seems like it's on you to prove your point rather than tell everyone who sat in this thread for awhile watching DSM say that stuff that they need to find a quote to prove it to you.

Go find it, it's buried in his 900 posts because that's what he does. He makes different arguments and changes them when he begins to be proven wrong and then claims "I never said that" while knowing that someone is likely not going to go back through 900 posts lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you'd like to spend your time going back through his 900 posts in this thread to find the section where he was doing that, be my guest. It is there, it will just take you awhile to find. As someone who seems to have jumped back into the thread recently, it seems like it's on you to prove your point rather than tell everyone who sat in this thread for awhile watching DSM say that stuff that they need to find a quote to prove it to you.

Go find it, it's buried in his 900 posts because that's what he does. He makes different arguments and changes them when he begins to be proven wrong and then claims "I never said that" while knowing that someone is likely not going to go back through 900 posts lol

You still haven't shown where it is. It should be trivial to find since you seem to remember it so clearly, and it bothers you so much. You made the claim, you need to prove it.

I know it doesn't exist since you think I claimed a Shaman with a Pet and Ice Strike is dealing more damage than a Mage. That is simply a fabrication of your mind.

Again, I know that you are simply thinking about my root/rot examples. A Shaman can output higher DPS in that specific scenario if they can root/rot enough mobs.

[Crede]

Ya'll just keep feeding into DSM's Shaman bias and he's loving every minute of it. This is no different then when he tried to mathematically convince us that Ogres are the best shaman race at 60.

The facts are simple, shaman's are a great duo class due to their healing/utility. But in a bigger group with a cleric/enchanter involved, they simply are not needed. Torpor snare/slow sucks & should be avoided at all costs if you can help it.

The biggest use I've seen for a shaman when a cleric/enchanter are present was in a full group, where it was actually most efficient to have the shaman doing the pulling so the real dps could do its work and the shaman could at least heal themselves. But I'd much rather have a necro doing this pulling role, which luckily in this 4 man equation we can add them to the mix. Shadowbond can easily be used to supplement heals if needed if the cleric feels like being lazy and nuking hehe.

[eqravenprince]

If you'd like to spend your time going back through his 900 posts in this thread to find the section where he was doing that, be my guest. It is there, it will just take you awhile to find. As someone who seems to have jumped back into the thread recently, it seems like it's on you to prove your point rather than tell everyone who sat in this thread for awhile watching DSM say that stuff that they need to find a quote to prove it to you.

Go find it, it's buried in his 900 posts because that's what he does. He makes different arguments and changes them when he begins to be proven wrong and then claims "I never said that" while knowing that someone is likely not going to go back through 900 posts lol

Just because I am posting now doesn't mean I didn't actively read every page. There is no post where he says Shaman is better DPS than Mage.

[cd288]

Just because I am posting now doesn't mean I didn't actively read every page. There is no post where he says Shaman is better DPS than Mage.

So then you clearly didn't read every page... lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So then you clearly didn't read every page... lol

Still waiting for you to show where you think I said this.

[eqravenprince]

So then you clearly didn't read every page... lol

Here is where DSM and I differ. I will give up here cause there is no point. You aren't going to provide the proof and continue to make snarky remarks. The person talking to the brick wall meme that whoever posted, you are proof of that.

[Allishia]

I won the parse! :p

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I won the parse! :p

You did! Your data is much better than Troxx's. I really appreciate it, thank you!

[cyxthryth]

Let's continue our civil discussion guys!

You wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that.

According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)

[PlsNoBan]

Please ignore DSM in this thread. He is just trolling. He has accumulated over 800 posts that are literally just bad data and bad arguments. He shouldn't since everyone knows the things he's saying are wrong and stupid, but he seems to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Shaman doesn't belong in the best overall 4 person caster/priest group for a variety of very obvious reasons that require no data or calculations

Enchanters solo better than warriors

[Chortles Snortles]

i wonder if he has been trolling us this whole time

[PlsNoBan]

i wonder if he has been trolling us this whole time

I honestly wonder that. I think there's a 50/50 shot it's either that or he's truly as dense and dumb as he seems.

[Crede]

Let's continue our civil discussion guys!



According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)

None, except maybe in a rare situation you need someone to step in and tank with Torpor?

You'd have a necro who could shadowbond or step in with harmshield if shit really hit the fan though. Necros can also just tank & spam deflux which is like the current meta for soloing big nameds.

So again, really no point to a shaman, unless you like losing dps for useless utility hehe.

[cd288]

i wonder if he has been trolling us this whole time

Honestly it is certainly a possibility that he is just an expert level troll.

Especially because on Friday he got backed into a corner where he accidentally admitted that 3 Enchanters and a Cleric is the best group composition and then frantically tried to recover and claim that a Shaman would still be better than having the Enchanter. No one can actually act this way in good faith I would think, so I would be willing to bet money he's just trolling.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's really sad that I am called a troll for using logic and evidence to support my position, while insulting/memeing/rage posting is considered to be a perfectly valid method of argumentation.

[cd288]

It's really sad that I am called a troll for using logic and evidence to support my position, while insulting/memeing/rage posting is considered to be a perfectly valid method of argumentation.

Well the nice thing for you is that you can continue to live in your head where you're always right and the countless people who have posted in this thread calling you incorrect are just wrong/trolls. So at least you've got that going for you, which is nice.

Although if you're so above everyone as you continue to sanctimoniously claim, then everyone must wonder why you keep making whiney posts like this. If you're so holier than thou you'd think you'd just exit the thread....hmmmmm I wonder why you don't do that...

[Crawdad]

Somebody math me in on stuff that matters, nobody cares about full spellbook NToV geared Cleric/Ench/Ench/Enchs Exp'ing in KC.


Somebody tell me who wins when
-Max level 56
-Chardok bank or Seb crypt
-Ench forgot peridots
-Cleric perpetually semi-afk so no buffs
-Mage forgets to send pet because they're arguing in /ooc

[Gloomlord]

Imagine defending DSM -- claiming you'd want his side in a debate.

You want the words of a manipulative sociopath on your side? Because all he's done is pathologically lie and disingenuously shift his arguments and the goalposts when things don't look good for him.

Okay...

[PlsNoBan]

It's really sad that I am called a troll for using logic and evidence to support my position, while insulting/memeing/rage posting is considered to be a perfectly valid method of argumentation.

Exactly what a real troll would say

[Gloomlord]

Oh, he's trolling, alright. However...

That doesn't mean it isn't the result of him realising that his arrogance is unfounded, or that he isn't engaging in self-deception in order to convince himself that is he correct.

Either way you look at it: he's not intelligent for doing this regardless.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh, he's trolling, alright. However...

That doesn't mean it isn't the result of him realising that his arrogance is unfounded, or that he isn't engaging in self-deception in order to convince himself that is he correct.

Either way you look at it: he's not intelligent for doing this regardless.

The people who have admitted to trolling are the ones doing so. PlsNoBan has done so directly, and you have admitted to trolling because your motivation for posting is to shut me up at all costs, regardless of who is right.

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

[Gloomlord]

Come now...

You actually think you've been correct? A considerable amount of people have disagreed with you, and you think it's all trolling?

You should be thankful for your lack of intelligence -- it has enabled you to endure this world and yourself.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Come now...

You actually think you've been correct? A considerable amount of people have disagreed with you, and you think it's all trolling?

You should be thankful for your lack of intelligence -- it has enabled you to endure this world and yourself.

This is the problem. You have a fallacious belief that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum is a valid argument. It is irrelevant how many people have agreed with you, and it is factually true that you are trolling, by your own admission and post history.

[Gloomlord]

Okay, so where did I claim to be trolling?

Because I insulted you? Try harder, you solipsist.

If you noticed my comment, I didn't say "more people = truth". I'm saying, "people disagreeing with you =/= trolls".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Okay, so where did I claim to be trolling?

Because I insulted you? Try harder, you solipsist.


Right here:

I guess we're obsessed because we know he'll have the gall to think he's won after we tire of him and leave.

Perhaps a futile gesture, I admit, but I think this might be a microcosm about how you should try to prevent a person holding an irrational belief in society.

You have admitted to obsessively posting because you think it will shut me up if you do it enough.

That is trolling. The intent of your post is not to have a discussion, but to troll me until I stop.

If you want to prove me wrong, do it with evidence and logic, not fallacies, insults, memes, etc.


If you noticed my comment, I didn't say "more people = truth". I'm saying, "people disagreeing with you =/= trolls".

You are invoking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum any time you use the number of people who agree with you. There isn't any way around that lol. It is factually irrelevant how many people agree with you.

It is pretty obvious a lot of trolling is happening, considering 1000 posts in this thread are simply insults, memes, etc.

[cyxthryth]

The people who have admitted to trolling are the ones doing so. PlsNoBan has done so directly, and you have admitted to trolling because your motivation for posting is to shut me up at all costs, regardless of who is right.

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! :) I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

I have not insulted or attacked you, I have posted zero memes. Please provide evidence to support your claim that I have engaged in any such activity on this (or any other) thread, else your claim is both unsubstantiated and false.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

I submit this entire thread and both of our entire post histories as evidence. You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

Your post would seem to imply that you believe that we are arguing. This is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument.

Again, you bring up accusations of insults/memes/trolling, but you have provided no evidence of me doing any such activities. I present this thread and both of our post histories as evidence, and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

If you are capable of engaging in civil discussion to back up your points with data that is relevant to the discussion, you may choose to start replying and doing so (rather than calling me a troll) at any time hehe. It really isn't hard. :)

In the event that this post is ignored, I submit it as further evidence that DSM has ignored my posts hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

The earth is flat and anyone that says otherwise is just doing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

I'm not a troll tho

(lol)

[Gloomlord]

You mad, bro?

Also, do you remember this comment?

I rest my case.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The earth is flat and anyone that says otherwise is just doing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

I'm not a troll tho

(lol)

You really are bad at making analogies, and you have admitted to trolling.

[cyxthryth]

You really are bad at making analogies, and you have admitted to trolling.

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! :) I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

I have not insulted or attacked you, I have posted zero memes. Please provide evidence to support your claim that I have engaged in any such activity on this (or any other) thread, else your claim is both unsubstantiated and false.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

I submit this entire thread and both of our entire post histories as evidence. You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

Your post would seem to imply that you believe that we are arguing. This is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument.

Again, you bring up accusations of insults/memes/trolling, but you have provided no evidence of me doing any such activities. I present this thread and both of our post histories as evidence, and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

If you are capable of engaging in civil discussion to back up your points with data that is relevant to the discussion, you may choose to start replying and doing so (rather than calling me a troll) at any time hehe. It really isn't hard. :)

In the event that this post is ignored, I submit it as further evidence that DSM has ignored my posts hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Also, do you remember this comment?

I rest my case.

I do remember it. You failed to post the comment you made that I responded to. Context matters. I am allowed to defend myself from your trolling attempts. It is sad you won't even bother posting your own quote so other people can see what I was replying to.

[Gloomlord]

You have admitted to obsessively posting because you think it will shut me up if you do it enough.

That is trolling. The intent of your post is not to have a discussion, but to troll me until I stop.

If you want to prove me wrong, do it with evidence and logic, not fallacies, insults, memes, etc.

How is that an admission of trolling, rather than an admission of wanting you to concede?

You're reaching so badly, petulant child.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How is that an admission of trolling, rather than an admission of wanting you to concede?

You're reaching so badly, petulant child.

It's not reaching, you admitted what your intent here was. You are going to post to shut me up, not to have a debate. That is trolling, and not how debates are done.

[cyxthryth]

I am allowed to defend myself from your trolling attempts.

I am allowed to continue to continue attempting to have a civil discussion whilst defending myself from your (false & unsubstantiated) repeated accusations of me trolling.

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! :) I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

I have not insulted or attacked you, I have posted zero memes. Please provide evidence to support your claim that I have engaged in any such activity on this (or any other) thread, else your claim is both unsubstantiated and false.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

I submit this entire thread and both of our entire post histories as evidence. You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

Your post would seem to imply that you believe that we are arguing. This is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument.

Again, you bring up accusations of insults/memes/trolling, but you have provided no evidence of me doing any such activities. I present this thread and both of our post histories as evidence, and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

If you are capable of engaging in civil discussion to back up your points with data that is relevant to the discussion, you may choose to start replying and doing so (rather than calling me a troll) at any time hehe. It really isn't hard. :)

In the event that this post is ignored, I submit it as further evidence that DSM has ignored my posts hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

I do remember it. You failed to post the comment you made that I responded to. Context matters. I am allowed to defend myself from your trolling attempts. It is sad you won't even bother posting your own quote so other people can see what I was replying to.

Then get the context...

It won't make you look any better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Then get the context...

It won't make you look any better.

You should be the one to post it. You believe it makes you look good, so why are you afraid of reposting it?

It was some nonsense about a Mage banging on his keyboard. There wasn't any substance to it other than it being another rage post made by yourself.

[PlsNoBan]

You really are bad at making analogies, and you have admitted to trolling.

Everyone (including you) has trolled at various points in this thread. Troll posts are not the majority of my posts. I have zero issue admitting when I'm doing so. Unlike some of us :rolleyes:

Referencing argumentum ad populum and dumbass fucking marcus aurelius quotes to defend yourself when everyone thinks you're a moron is exactly what a troll/moron would do.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Everyone (including you) has trolled at various points in this thread. Troll posts are not the majority of my posts. I have zero issue admitting when I'm doing so. Unlike some of us :rolleyes:

Please show me where I admitted to trolling.

You have over 300 posts of just insults and memes.

[cyxthryth]

why are you afraid

Says the poster who is seemingly not even actually interested in engaging in a civil discussion, instead he is "arguing" and calling others trolls, while ignoring my posts & questions posed directly to him (as evidenced by the post history, which is self-evident & available to be viewed by all).

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! :) I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

I have not insulted or attacked you, I have posted zero memes. Please provide evidence to support your claim that I have engaged in any such activity on this (or any other) thread, else your claim is both unsubstantiated and false.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

I submit this entire thread and both of our entire post histories as evidence. You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

Your post would seem to imply that you believe that we are arguing. This is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument.

Again, you bring up accusations of insults/memes/trolling, but you have provided no evidence of me doing any such activities. I present this thread and both of our post histories as evidence, and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

If you are capable of engaging in civil discussion to back up your points with data that is relevant to the discussion, you may choose to start replying and doing so (rather than calling me a troll) at any time hehe. It really isn't hard. :)

[cyxthryth]

Please show me where I admitted to trolling.

Sounds familiar hehe. :)

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! :) I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

I have not insulted or attacked you, I have posted zero memes. Please provide evidence to support your claim that I have engaged in any such activity on this (or any other) thread, else your claim is both unsubstantiated and false.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

I submit this entire thread and both of our entire post histories as evidence. You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

Your post would seem to imply that you believe that we are arguing. This is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument.

Again, you bring up accusations of insults/memes/trolling, but you have provided no evidence of me doing any such activities. I present this thread and both of our post histories as evidence, and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

If you are capable of engaging in civil discussion to back up your points with data that is relevant to the discussion, you may choose to start replying and doing so (rather than calling me a troll) at any time hehe. It really isn't hard. :)

In the event that this post is ignored, I submit it as further evidence that DSM has ignored my posts hehe. :)

[Allishia]

yall are too funny with the back and forth in this thread

[PlsNoBan]

Please show me where I admitted to trolling.

You have over 300 posts of just insults and memes.

You have over 800 posts of just trolling and bad/dishonest arguments. What's your point?

[cyxthryth]

yall are too funny with the back and forth in this thread

I am merely attempting to move forward with the civil discussion hehe. :)

It really isn't hard. I am not sure why DSM seemingly continues to choose not to reply as if he has been backed into a corner "arguing" from bad faith (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) - I've asked multiple times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have over 800 posts of just trolling and bad/dishonest arguments. What's your point?

The point is simple. I am not trolling, and my arguments have more credibility than yours. I consistently back up my points with logic and facts.

The vast majority of all the posts you have made on this forum are just trolls/memes/insults, and you have admitted to trolling.

It is clear you are the troll here lol. I am not sure how you think you can and try and paint yourself otherwise.

If you want to have a discussion, bring some evidence to back up your points, instead of just trolls/memes/insults and fallacies. Or admit you are wrong and stop posting.

yall are too funny with the back and forth in this thread

It is funny lol. I cannot believe how silly people can be when they see data from an elf sim that doesn't agree with their point of view.

[Gloomlord]

To say I've been "trolling" would imply that I've been deliberately inflammatory and obtuse for its merest sake. Insulting you, because I believe you deserve to be insulted, does not count.

I'm not guilty of that, DSM. You, however, are guilty of both -- in order to cover for your insecurity over the shaman class, and your inane disdain for the mage class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To say I've been "trolling" would imply that I've been deliberately inflammatory and obtuse for its merest sake. Insulting you, because I believe you deserve to be insulted, does not count.

I'm not guilty of that, DSM. You, however, are guilty of both -- in order to cover for your insecurity over the shaman class, and your inane disdain for the mage class.

You believe I should be insulted, and you also think that belief isn't trolling.

That honestly is some silly mental gymnastics. There is no reason why I "deserve" to be insulted, other than your desire to troll instead of provide a coherent argument.

It is extremely arrogant and delusional to assume you are some arbiter who can judge who is worthy of insult.

[PlsNoBan]

I consistently back up my points with logic and facts.

You think you do but unfortunately you do not. All the data this entire thread says mage does more damage than shaman. The only data ANYONE has provided here is related to DPS between mage and shaman. ALL OF THIS DATA says mage > shaman. No matter how much or how little. Your entire argument consists of shaman heals and utility being more important than the DPS difference. You've provided ZERO data to support this. You're arguing nothing more than an opinion. One that PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE agrees is stupid and unfounded.

inb4 argumentum ad populum marcus aurelius

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You think you do but unfortunately you do not. All the data this entire thread says mage does more damage than shaman. The only data ANYONE has provided here is related to DPS between mage and shaman. ALL OF THIS DATA says mage > shaman. No matter how much or how little. Your entire argument consists of shaman heals and utility being more important than the DPS difference. You've provided ZERO data to support this. You're arguing nothing more than an opinion. One that PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE agrees is stupid and unfounded.

inb4 argumentum ad populum marcus aurelius

The only person who has provided zero data is trolls like you lol. I have factually provided way more data than you have.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[PlsNoBan]

I have factually provided way more data than you have.

You have. I do not deny this. Unfortunately for you all your data says mage does more damage than shaman. Your OPINION says shaman heals/utility is more important than how much more damage the mage does. You've yet to back this up. Myself and I'd argue most people disagree. You can't heal full hp targets. Malo is covered. Slow is covered. CC is covered. Heals are covered. What benefit do you bring?

[cyxthryth]

You have. I do not deny this. Unfortunately for you all your data says mage does more damage than shaman. Your OPINION says shaman heals/utility is more important than how much more damage the mage does. You've yet to back this up. Myself and I'd argue most people disagree. You can't heal full hp targets. Malo is covered. Slow is covered. CC is covered. Heals are covered. What benefit do you bring?

Exactly! This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Let's continue our civil discussion guys!

According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have. I do not deny this. Unfortunately for you all your data says mage does more damage than shaman. Your OPINION says shaman heals/utility is more important than how much more damage the mage does. You've yet to back this up. Myself and I'd argue most people disagree. You can't heal full hp targets. Malo is covered. Slow is covered. CC is covered. Heals are covered. What benefit do you bring?

Thanks for admitting that. The data shows the extra DPS from a mage isn't helping the group, so it is a matter of fact a broader toolkit and more camp options will help more. Something is better than nothing, even if you choose not to use that something.

[cyxthryth]

Thanks for admitting that. The data shows the extra DPS from a mage isn't helping the group, so it is a matter of fact a broader toolkit and more camp options will help more. Something is better than nothing, even if you choose not to use that something.

Let's continue our civil discussion guys!

According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)

The problem with your post is that the content of your post would seem to imply that you are equating the better (and easier/more convenient) DPS & pet of a Mage as "nothing" - it is not "nothing" and you have provided zero evidence that "it is a matter of fact a broader toolkit and more camp options will help more". Just because you state it is a fact does not make it a fact. It would have to be a fact hehe. :) What it really is is your opinion that it will "help more". This really isn't hard.

[Gloomlord]

You believe I should be insulted, and you also think that belief isn't trolling.

That honestly is some silly mental gymnastics. There is no reason why I "deserve" to be insulted, other than your desire to troll instead of provide a coherent argument.

It is extremely arrogant and delusional to assume you are some arbiter who can judge who is worthy of insult.

Ah, okay.

So the next time you get angry and make insults to somebody, because they acted in an anti-social manner towards you, they have all the reason to say you're a "troll"?

Fuck off with your self-righteousness already.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah, okay.

So the next time you get angry and make insults to somebody, because they acted in an anti-social manner towards you, they have all the reason to say you're a "troll"?

Fuck off with your self-righteousness already.

The answer is to not get angry and insult someone simply because they disagree with you. That is not how a debate works. You provide evidence and logic to prove your points, not insults.

The only anti-social behavior is your belief that you "deserve" to insult people whenever they fit your imaginary criteria of what you think it takes for someone to "deserve" to be insulted.

[tadkins]

So uh, this thread's gotten a bit too big to read all the way through, but...how much have Wizards been trashed on here? 'Cause that's what I think I want to go back to.

[Gloomlord]

The answer is to not get angry and insult someone simply because they disagree with you. That is not how a debate works. You provide evidence and logic to prove your points, not insults.

The only anti-social behavior is your belief that you "deserve" to insult people whenever they fit your imaginary criteria of what you think it takes for someone to "deserve" to be insulted.

Remember when you said "you mad bro"? You think you're in a position to lecture someone about how to deal with a response you don't like?

I'm not going to let you forget that now, you hypocrite. It'll be a constant reminder of how full of shit you are.

[PlsNoBan]

The data shows the extra DPS from a mage isn't helping the group, so it is a matter of fact a broader toolkit and more camp options will help more.

Disagree. The data shows mage does more damage than shaman and the facts show the group has all the utility it needs and shaman brings largely redundant things. You can SAY the extra DPS from a mage isn't helping but that's just factually incorrect. Again we're talking about a group that doesn't really need ANYTHING from a 4th player. But more dps > healing full hp targets or slowing already slowed targets. Regardless of how much dps or whether or not you get more PH's. Shaman opens up VERY FEW things. Mage also opens up things so thats irrelevant also.

[cyxthryth]

The answer is to not get angry and insult someone simply because they disagree with you. That is not how a debate works. You provide evidence and logic to prove your points, not insults.

The answer is not to ignore facts and dodge questions posed directly to you while claiming that you somehow know the feelings of others and that those others are trolls who's posts are "just insults/memes/trolling" simply because you believe that to be the case (with no evidence to support your - thus unsubstantiated and probably false - claim). That is not how a debate or a civil discussion works. You have to actually be civil, and you have to actually engage in discussion or debate. You can't just dodge all the questions and ignore (irrefutable) facts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

The only anti-social behavior is your belief that you "deserve" to insult people whenever they fit your imaginary criteria of what you think it takes for someone to "deserve" to be insulted.

It could be seen as anti-social to specifically ignore someone who is trying (repeatedly) to communicate with you in a civil discussion instead of engaging in actual discussion whenever they don't fit your imaginary criteria of what you are able to reply to when backed into a corner "arguing" from bad faith even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Disagree. The data shows mage does more damage than shaman and the facts show the group has all the utility it needs and shaman brings largely redundant things. You can SAY the extra DPS from a mage isn't helping but that's just factually incorrect. Again we're talking about a group that doesn't really need ANYTHING from a 4th player. But more dps > healing full hp targets or slowing already slowed targets. Regardless of how much dps or whether or not you get more PH's. Shaman opens up VERY FEW things. Mage also opens up things so thats irrelevant also.

The data shows the DPS increase is irrelevant, and you haven't shown why DPS helps when you are no longer getting additional kills per hour in the session.

Remember when you said "you mad bro"? You think you're in a position to lecture someone about how to deal with a response you don't like?

I'm not going to let you forget that now, you hypocrite. It'll be a constant reminder of how full of shit you are.

I have the right to defend myself. I didn't start the insults. You did. I am just responding in kind. If you don't want to be insulted, don't start insulting people. It is pretty obvious who the aggressor was when I posted that comment. It was you. I see you still haven't posted the comment I was responding to:) I thought it would make you look good?

[cyxthryth]

The data shows the DPS increase is irrelevant, and you haven't shown why DPS helps when you are no longer getting additional kills per hour in the session.


Let's continue our civil discussion guys!

According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)


I have the right to defend myself.

I have a right to defend myself from a poster who ignores my posts while making accusations (that are false) and making claims (that are unsubstantiated and false) about me.

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! :) I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

I have not insulted or attacked you, I have posted zero memes. Please provide evidence to support your claim that I have engaged in any such activity on this (or any other) thread, else your claim is both unsubstantiated and false.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

I submit this entire thread and both of our entire post histories as evidence. You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

Your post would seem to imply that you believe that we are arguing. This is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument.

Again, you bring up accusations of insults/memes/trolling, but you have provided no evidence of me doing any such activities. I present this thread and both of our post histories as evidence, and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

If you are capable of engaging in civil discussion to back up your points with data that is relevant to the discussion, you may choose to start replying and doing so (rather than calling me a troll) at any time hehe. It really isn't hard. :)

In the event that this post is ignored, I submit it as further evidence that DSM has ignored my posts hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

The data shows the DPS increase is irrelevant, and you haven't shown why DPS helps when you are no longer getting additional kills per hour in the session.

I have. You just probably dismissed it cause it doesn't suit your agenda. Literally any amount of damage gain is better than healing full hp or slowing already slowed. That is ZERO net gain to the group. Even 1 dps is a small net gain. Even if it only means you're killing extra trash mobs or have extra AFK time between spawn cycles. It's still objectively better (admittedly only slightly in this case) than less DPS and completely unnecessary extra heals/slows or whatever other bullshit. You can only argue shaman is better if the cleric is unable to keep everyone topped off without going OOM or for some reason the enchanters cant slow or something. Which will never fucking happen to any halfway decent group of players with this group makeup. Which again is assumed the players are good and know what they're doing.

You have nothing but an opinion/preference to back your claims here. No data supports it. All the data supports mage.

[Gloomlord]

I have the right to defend myself.

And we have the right to call you out on your bullshit.

So, get off your high horse for once in your life, filth.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have. You just probably dismissed it cause it doesn't suit your agenda. Literally any amount of damage gain is better than healing full hp or slowing already slowed. That is ZERO net gain to the group. Even 1 dps is a small net gain. Even if it only means you're killing extra trash mobs or have extra AFK time between spawn cycles. It's still objectively better (admittedly only slightly in this case) than less DPS and completely unnecessary extra heals/slows or whatever other bullshit. You can only argue shaman is better if the cleric is unable to keep everyone topped off without going OOM or for some reason the enchanters cant slow or something. Which will never fucking happen to any halfway decent group of players with this group makeup. Which again is assumed the players are good and know what they're doing.

You have nothing but an opinion/preference to back your claims here. No data supports it. All the data supports mage.

No, you have not explained why 1 DPS is superior. It offers nothing if you aren't gaining more kills per hour. You just keep pretending you explained it somewhere.

[slard271]

this thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And we have the right to call you out on your bullshit.

So, get off your high horse for once in your life, filth.

You don't have the right to call out "my bullshit", because you haven't provided any evidence to suggest I am bullshitting. Again, you just think you are right because other people agree with you.

[Ripqozko]

39 pages to go, we can do it boys

[cyxthryth]

No, you have not explained why 1 DPS is superior. It offers nothing if you aren't gaining more kills per hour. You just keep pretending you explained it somewhere.

More DPS (for example, "1 more DPS") does not "offer nothing" - it "offers" the mobs dying faster. This irrefutable fact has already been stated to you/explained to you multiple times hehe. :) Why did you need this pointed out to you yet again?

[cyxthryth]

you haven't provided any evidence to suggest I am bullshitting

Sounds familiar hehe. :)

You haven't provided any evidence to suggest I am trolling.

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! :) I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

The hundreds of insult/meme posts don't help your case either.

I have not insulted or attacked you, I have posted zero memes. Please provide evidence to support your claim that I have engaged in any such activity on this (or any other) thread, else your claim is both unsubstantiated and false.

You can provide evidence for your claims or admit defeat at any time.

I submit this entire thread and both of our entire post histories as evidence. You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

It is sad you think you can win an argument with just insults/memes/trolling, and no evidence.

Your post would seem to imply that you believe that we are arguing. This is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument.

Again, you bring up accusations of insults/memes/trolling, but you have provided no evidence of me doing any such activities. I present this thread and both of our post histories as evidence, and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

If you are capable of engaging in civil discussion to back up your points with data that is relevant to the discussion, you may choose to start replying and doing so (rather than calling me a troll) at any time hehe. It really isn't hard. :)

In the event that this post is ignored, I submit it as further evidence that DSM has ignored my posts hehe. :)

[Karanis]

18763

[PlsNoBan]

No, you have not explained why 1 DPS is superior. It offers nothing if you aren't gaining more kills per hour. You just keep pretending you explained it somewhere.

Dude for the love of god...

I would bet my fucking life savings that if shamans did 1 more DPS than mages we'd have 800+ wall of text napkin math filled posts about how important that 1 extra DPS is. You are the most dishonest arguer on planet earth.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude for the love of god...

I would bet my fucking life savings that if shamans did 1 more DPS than mages we'd have 800+ wall of text napkin math filled posts about how important that 1 extra DPS is. You are the most dishonest arguer on planet earth.

Not at all. If Shamans did 1 more DPS it would be just as irrelevant.

You bring DPS to hit the necessary DPS breakpoints to maximize your kills per hour. Once you hit that it isn't necessary to bring more.

Again, if you save 4 seconds per kill, and are killing 20 mobs per 30 minutes, you save a paultry 80 seconds per cycle. I doubt anybody is going to split hairs over AFKing for 21 minutes vs. 20 minutes while waiting for respawns, and it would take you 11 hours to see one extra cycle.

There is just no benefit, and you keep dodging that fact.

[cyxthryth]

Not at all. If Shamans did 1 more DPS it would be just as irrelevant.

You bring DPS to hit the necessary DPS breakpoints to maximize your kills per hour. Once you hit that it isn't necessary to bring more.

Again, if you save 4 seconds per kill, and are killing 20 mobs per 30 minutes, you save a paultry 80 seconds per cycle. I doubt anybody is going to split hairs over AFKing for 21 minutes vs. 20 minutes while waiting for respawns, and it would take you 11 hours to see one extra cycle.

There is just no benefit, and you keep dodging that fact.

You wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that.

Let's continue our civil discussion guys!

According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)

[PlsNoBan]

Not at all. If Shamans did 1 more DPS it would be just as irrelevant.

You bring DPS to hit the necessary DPS breakpoints to maximize your kills per hour. Once you hit that it isn't necessary to bring more.

Again, if you save 4 seconds per kill, and are killing 20 mobs per 30 minutes, you save a paultry 80 seconds per cycle. I doubt anybody is going to split hairs over AFKing for 21 minutes vs. 20 minutes while waiting for respawns, and it would take you 11 hours to see one extra cycle.

There is just no benefit, and you keep dodging that fact.

There IS benefit. Even by your own admission in this very post. It's not uncommon for P99 players to play 11 hours lol but that's besides the point. Even if you only saved 5 minutes time in your entire play session that is still a benefit. Admittedly a small one. Guess what though? It's still a greater benefit than a shaman healing someone with full HP or slowing an already slowed mob. Because that is truly ZERO benefit. A shaman in this group would be doing nothing but DPSing because everything else is covered. A mage provides more DPS.

Small benefit > No benefit

and YOU keep dodging that fact. I have dodged nothing. Even if mage is only 0.000001% better. The question is what is the BEST 4 person caster/priest setup. No matter how slightly better they are. Even if its so small you literally can't notice. Better is better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There IS benefit. Even by your own admission in this very post. It's not uncommon for P99 players to play 11 hours lol but that's besides the point. Even if you only saved 5 minutes time in your entire play session that is still a benefit. Admittedly a small one. Guess what though? It's still a greater benefit than a shaman healing someone with full HP or slowing an already slowed mob. Because that is truly ZERO benefit. A shaman in this group would be doing nothing but DPSing because everything else is covered. A mage provides more DPS.

Small benefit > No benefit

and YOU keep dodging that fact.

I am not dodging it at all. The problem is you think that 5 minutes will matter. It isn't increasing your kills per hour, it is just giving you 1 extra AFK minute per cycle, which isn't going to be noticed by anyone. Your group will still finish the last cycle before they stop.

Most people don't play 11 hours or more in groups. The other thing you forget is playing 11 hours straight increases your chances of wiping due to fatigue, but having a Shaman decreases those chances. Saving even 1 wipe in those 11 hours is going to save you a ton of time.

[PlsNoBan]

I am not dodging it at all. The problem is you think that 5 minutes will matter. It isn't increasing your kills per hour, it is just giving you 1 extra AFK minute per cycle, which isn't going to be noticed by anyone. Your group will still finish the last cycle before the stop.

Most people don't play 11 hours or more in groups. The other thing you forget is playing 11 hours straight increases your chances of wiping, but having a Shaman decreases those chances. Saving even 1 wipe in those 11 hours is going to save you a ton of time.

It doesn't matter if you save 1 second. Saving 1 second is a benefit greater than 0 benefit. There are a TON of P99 players that regularly play 11 hours or more. Like a fucking shitload of them. I used to be one and I knew many people that played more than me. You keep assuming the group is going to wipe which in my experience almost never happens with this class makeup. You also assume that even if it were to wipe that a shaman instead of a mage would prevent that wipe. Both things you have no proof for. I assume you're going off of experience of your groups wiping a lot. Mine didn't. Neither of us have data to support this other than our personal experiences. But unfortunately the assumption in this argument is that the players are all good and know how to play their classes well. In this situation a chance of wipe is extremely minimal. Someone would have to be basically AFK or someone would have to train you. In either case a shaman likely isn't preventing that wipe.

If someone asked you what the fastest car was and you had car A with a top speed of 261 mph and car B with a top speed of 261.05 mph. Would you argue that car A is the correct answer cause .05 mph isn't relevant? That's not how logic works my friend.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn't matter if you save 1 second. Saving 1 second is a benefit greater than 0 benefit. There are a TON of P99 players that regularly play 11 hours or more. Like a fucking shitload of them. I used to be one and I knew many people that played more than me. You keep assuming the group is going to wipe which in my experience almost never happens with this class makeup. You also assume that even if it were to wipe that a shaman instead of a mage would prevent that wipe. Both things you have no proof for. I assume you're going off of experience of your groups wiping a lot. Mine didn't. Neither of us have data to support this other than our personal experiences. But unfortunately the assumption in this argument is that the players are all good and know how to play their classes well. In this situation a chance of wipe is extremely minimal. Someone would have to be basically AFK or someone would have to train you. In either case a shaman likely isn't preventing that wipe.

If someone asked you what the fastest car was and you had car A with a top speed of 261 mph and car B with a top speed of 261.05 mph. Would you argue that car A is the correct answer cause .05 mph isn't relevant? That's not how logic works my friend.

Again, your analogies are silly. I would prefer a car that goes 261 miles per hour and has better steering capabilities than a car that just has 261.05 mph and less steering capabilities. You are simply too focused on DPS to see that.

If your group is going 11 hours in a single session, you have an increased chance of wiping due to fatigue. You just keep assuming everybody is playing perfect forever. I am sorry, but you aren't as pro as you think. You just keep saying this because it is all you have.

[PlsNoBan]

I would prefer a car that goes 261 miles per hour and has better steering capabilities than a car that just has 261.05 mph and less steering capabilities.


I would agree with you on this. Except a shaman doesn't have better steering capabilities. It has healing and utility that is already covered in the group and not needed. It brings nothing but mediocre DPS to this group composition. Which a mage provides better. Doesn't matter if it means extra spawns or not. Once again better is better and you cannot heal full HP targets.

[PlsNoBan]

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

Reminder: You admitted shaman is only better for niche shit like ixiblat. Not sure why you insist on backpedaling so hard. You were so close to being honest for a brief moment :(

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would agree with you on this. Except a shaman doesn't have better steering capabilities. It has healing and utility that is already covered in the group and not needed. It brings nothing but mediocre DPS to this group composition. Which a mage provides better. Doesn't matter if it means extra spawns or not. Once again better is better and you cannot heal full HP targets.

The Shaman does. They offer more safety and more camp options. I would much rather decrease chances of wiping than go 1 second faster on a kill when it doesn't give me anything. If you aren't getting more kills per hour, DPS is meaningless.

I am sorry, nobody is going to notice a few extra seconds of AFK time, and most players aren't going to be playing in extremely long sessions where you get an extra cycle. It also depends on the camp. Fungi King would take like 80 hours to get an extra cycle on.

[cyxthryth]

If your group is going 11 hours in a single session, you have an increased chance of wiping due to fatigue. You just keep assuming everybody is playing perfect forever. I am sorry, but you aren't as pro as you think.

No, your post indicates that you may (yet again) be confused about the context of this discussion. All players are assumed to be good/decent players, not "playing perfect forever". Why have you - and only you - used this particular verbiage? Hehe. :)

wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that

You just keep saying this because it is all you have.

What is "this" that you are - unsubstantiated & falsely - claiming that PlsNoBan is "saying" and why did you use this particular verbiage?

Your apology is as irrelevant as your solo Shaman DPS "data/evidence" hehe. :)

[Vexenu]

Has anyone ever been in an XP group with 2 or 3 Shaman? How about 2 or 3 Clerics or Bards? The answer is probably no, and if the answer is yes, you likely did not find the experience particularly productive or enjoyable.

On the other hand, has anyone ever been in an XP group with 2 or 3 Rogues or Mages? I would say most of us at some point. And you probably marveled at how quickly things died and how much XP you were getting.

The point is to illustrate that DPS stacks infinitely, while utility does not. You can always benefit from more DPS, but you don't always benefit from more utility. This is the fundamental truth about EQ that DSM refuses to acknowledge.

[slard271]

I'm still confident we will all come to unanimous consensus in this Internet forum thread. In the meantime, we're eyeing 300. I don't know if a 300 meme is more appropriate or an "I'm doing my part." Or maybe popcorn. All I know is I'm sitting in EC right now /ooc'ing for DPS shaman for my Mistmoore group; while we're fighting up in CE, he can be root rotting all of pit for absolute supreme mana efficiency and DPS. The group had a long discussion about it and concluded that would make the most sense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Has anyone ever been in an XP group with 2 or 3 Shaman? How about 2 or 3 Clerics or Bards? The answer is probably no, and if the answer is yes, you likely did not find the experience particularly productive or enjoyable.

On the other hand, has anyone ever been in an XP group with 2 or 3 Rogues or Mages? I would say most of us at some point. And you probably marveled at how quickly things died and how much XP you were getting.

The point is to illustrate that DPS stacks infinitely, while utility does not. You can always benefit from more DPS, but you don't always benefit from more utility. This is the fundamental truth about EQ that DSM refuses to acknowledge.

This is such a bad example. Of course you are less likely to hit DPS thresholds with 3 clerics. Who was arguing otherwise?

You are just going between the two extremes lol. Four Mages is redundant DPS with no utility, and 4 clerics doesn't have enough DPS.

Thats why you build something balanced, like Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Mage. You get all the utility and you hit the DPS breakpoints.

[cyxthryth]

This is such a bad example. Of course you are less likely to hit DPS thresholds with 3 clerics. Who was arguing otherwise?

You are just going between the two extremes lol. Four Mages is redundant DPS with no utility, and 4 clerics doesn't have enough DPS.

Thats why you build something balanced, like Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Mage. You get all the utility and you hit the DPS breakpoints.

You wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that.

Let's continue our civil discussion guys!

According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)

[Karanis]

18765

[PlsNoBan]

Hi, I'm DSM, I acknowledge that my malo and slow and dots aren't beneficial in fast killing groups. My data shows that my DPS is inferior to actual DPS classes. I realize a cleric will have no problem keeping this group alive. When someone asks me what the best 4 man caster/priest group is I insist it must include shaman. So I'll post 800+ times about it and make 17 different arguments and keep changing them and moving the goal posts when people call me on my absolute bullshit. My latest and greatest argument is basically "I'm better than more DPS cause just in case the cleric is retarded or goes AFK I can heal or something? Also more DPS is bad if it doesn't get you more named/PH cycles in under 3 hours cause nobody on P99 plays more than that LOL". I believe this is very persuasive and will turn many forum reading elves to my side of the argument. Shamans 4 lyfe!

P.S. I can always root rot adds for extra DPS. That's not stupid at all trust me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hi, I'm DSM, I acknowledge that my malo and slow and dots aren't beneficial in fast killing groups. My data shows that my DPS is inferior to actual DPS classes. I realize a cleric will have no problem keeping this group alive. When someone asks me what the best 4 man caster/priest group is I insist it must include shaman. So I'll post 800+ times about it and make 17 different arguments and keep changing them and moving the goal posts when people call me on my absolute bullshit. My latest and greatest argument is basically "I'm better than more DPS cause just in case the cleric is retarded or goes AFK I can heal or something? Also more DPS is bad if it doesn't get you more named/PH cycles in under 3 hours cause nobody on P99 plays more than that LOL". I believe this is very persuasive and will turn many forum reading elves to my side of the argument. Shamans 4 lyfe!

P.S. I can always root rot adds for extra DPS. That's not stupid at all trust me.

Mega yikes. I wouldn't bother writing these long paragraphs, since none of it makes sense anyway. You're just wasting your time doing this instead of providing evidence. You just keep rehashing your obvious strawmen because you can't address my arguments directly.

[Ripqozko]

You sure do like saying mega yikes now, new catchphrase?

[PlsNoBan]

Mega yikes. I wouldn't bother writing these long paragraphs, since none of it makes sense anyway. You're just wasting your time doing this instead of providing evidence. You just keep rehashing your obvious strawmen because you can't address my arguments directly.

The evidence is already provided. Much of it by yourself. The evidence is contrary to your argument though unfortunately. You continue to argue your opinion as fact then ask others to provide evidence which is quite silly.

[cd288]

You sure do like saying mega yikes now, new catchphrase?

Lol I was literally about to say he seems super fixated on mega yikes now

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The evidence is already provided. Much of it by yourself. The evidence is contrary to your argument though unfortunately. You continue to argue your opinion as fact then ask others to provide evidence which is quite silly.

You keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. You can math out the numbers. I am not sure why this bothers you so much. The evidence is already there, and you have none of your own. DPS has it's breakpoints in a game with long respawn timers. Your preference on killing something 1 second faster doesn't mean you are benefiting from that.

I am asking the person who hasn't provided any evidence for their claims so far to do so lol. I don't think that is unreasonable, considering other people (including myself) have provided evidence.

[PlsNoBan]

You keep saying that, but it simply isn't true. You can math out the numbers. I am not sure why this bothers you so much. The evidence is already there, and you have none of your own. DPS has it's breakpoints in a game with long respawn timers. Your preference on killing something 1 second faster doesn't mean you are benefiting from that.

I am asking the person who hasn't provided any evidence for their claims so far to do so lol. I don't think that is unreasonable, considering other people (including myself) have provided evidence.

If your argument is DPS literally doesn't matter at all beyond what the 2 enchanters are able to output (they reach your "breakpoints" without any help) then why did you post literally hundreds of times and bother with all the shaman vs mage data comparisons? It's almost as if you change your arguments to suit your needs constantly? If your OPINION was "DPS beyond 2 charms is 100% irrelevant and I'd rather have extra unnecessary heals cause my groups suck and I don't think a cleric could do it alone" then why all the bothering with parses and trying to prove how much DPS your dumb shaman does?

[Karanis]

Giga yikers!

18767

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If your argument is DPS literally doesn't matter at all beyond what the 2 enchanters are able to output (they reach your "breakpoints" without any help) then why did you post literally hundreds of times and bother with all the shaman vs mage data comparisons? It's almost as if you change your arguments to suit your needs constantly? If your OPINION was "DPS beyond 2 charms is 100% irrelevant and I'd rather have extra unnecessary heals cause my groups suck and I don't think a cleric could do it alone" then why all the bothering with parses and trying to prove how much DPS your dumb shaman does?

The Shaman and Mage parses are to show the gap between the classes DPS wise, so you can clearly see how much time you save per kill. That has always been the purpose, and hasn't changed. I didn't think I would need to explain the DPS breakpoints initially, because I had assumed people already understood this.

If I had just claimed the DPS breakpoints were hit already without the Mage, you obviously wouldn't have believed me.

Data is much harder to argue against.

It is also silly you keep claiming good players never die. I know you don't believe this, or you would say 4x Enchanters are the best. Why bother with the Cleric at all?

[PlsNoBan]

It is also silly you keep claiming good players never die. I know you don't believe this, or you would say 4x Enchanters are the best. Why bother with the Cleric at all?

I have specifically said 4 good players *WITH THIS GROUP COMPOSITION* will basically never die. 4 warriors will wipe a lot. Another extremely dishonest DSM argument what a shocker. A cleric adds the safety net that 2-3 insanely overpowered classes (enchanters) may need if they fuck up. You have a huge boner for adding a safety net to the safety net for some reason. I can only assume it's because your experience is with shit groups that need it. If you play EQ as well as you argue on elf forums I can understand why you'd be wiping frequently.

Someone would have to royally fuck up in a manner in which a shaman likely wouldn't have saved them anyway in order for this group to wipe doing most any group content. 4 enchanters is doable without too much risk if everyone is on point. 3 with a cleric is nearly untouchable for most content. Or really 2 + cleric + anything else. Before you say some idiot shit like "SEE TOLD U DPS DOESN'T MATTER". I've fully admitted this like a dozen times. We're arguing over what's "best" for 4th slot in a group that really only needs 3 people to do almost any group content in this game. I believe DPS stacks infinitely and utility/heals do not. So for marginal gain on the 4th slot add as much dps as you can. Everything else is covered that matters.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A cleric adds the safety net that 2-3 insanely overpowered classes (enchanters) may need if they fuck up.

Precisely. Saftey matters, and players can screw up. Glad we finally agree on that without your silly idea that players never die.

The math shows DPS breakpoints have high diminishing returns after a certain point. When you don't need more DPS, more utility and camp options are simply better because they offer something.

If you are killing 20 mobs with a Shaman in 30 minutes, and 20 mobs with a Mage in 30 minutes, both groups are in the same position, so DPS is no longer helping. You just aren't saving enough time anymore to get more kills.

[cyxthryth]

Precisely. Saftey matters, and players can screw up. Glad we finally agree on that without your silly idea that players never die.

The math shows DPS breakpoints have high diminishing returns after a certain point. When you don't need more DPS, more utility and camp options are simply better because they offer something.

If you are killing 20 mobs with a Shaman in 30 minutes, and 20 mobs with a Mage in 30 minutes, both groups are in the same position, so DPS is no longer helping. You just aren't saving enough time anymore to get more kills.

You wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that.

Let's continue our civil discussion guys!

According to DSM, you would not Malo/Slow mobs dying in 30 seconds. In the context of a high level fast-paced killing DPS group, this would presumably be most mobs.

What value does a Shaman add to Enc/Enc/Clr group over a Mage if the Shaman will (as has been irrefutably stated by DSM in this thread) not utilize Malo or Slow for most of the mobs the group is killing hehe? :)

[Karanis]

18768

[Toxigen]

jesus titty fuckin christ

shut the fuck up

[PlsNoBan]

Precisely. Saftey matters, and players can screw up

I never denied that safety matters. The cleric provides plenty of it and it does not stack infinitely as DPS does. You would not bring 3 clerics to a group for extra safety. One cleric is plenty. You also seem to completely ignore that you can be killing extra mobs outside of whatever PH you're camping. Fungi king as an example you can pull trash mobs all the way back to the jail cells beyond the zoneout room and all the way to juggs if you so choose. There's no lack of mobs to pull in this area if nobody else is camping nearby (which most often there is nobody else in the area). You may not gain an extra PH cycle but you CERTAINLY can gain more kills. There are way more than 30 mobs in pulling range. I've been in groups killing fast enough that I'm literally pulling half of a zone at times. If everyone is lvl 60 with max XP it's less useful but not completely irrelevant. There's trash loot to gain and zone drops in certain zones or multiple named camps you can be pulling. If you ONLY care about fungi king PH you can just sit there and kill like 4 spawns over and over but that's extremely boring. Most people don't want to kill 4 spawns and AFK for 20-25 minutes. You're being purposely obtuse here to support an idiotic argument that you refuse to back off of.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never denied that safety matters. The cleric provides plenty of it and it does not stack infinitely as DPS does. You would not bring 3 clerics to a group for extra safety. One cleric is plenty. You also seem to completely ignore that you can be killing extra mobs outside of whatever PH you're camping. Fungi king as an example you can pull trash mobs all the way back to the jail cells beyond the zoneout room and all the way to juggs if you so choose. There's no lack of mobs to pull in this area if nobody else is camping nearby (which most often there is nobody else in the area). You may not gain an extra PH cycle but you CERTAINLY can gain more kills. There are way more than 30 mobs in pulling range. I've been in groups killing fast enough that I'm literally pulling half of a zone at times. If everyone is lvl 60 with max XP it's less useful but not completely irrelevant. There's trash loot to gain and zone drops in certain zones or multiple named camps you can be pulling. You're being purposely obtuse here to support an idiotic argument that you refuse to back off of.

Exactly. Safety matters, and a Shaman will help your group with DPS, utility, safety, and camp options all at the same time.

I am not ignoring the ability to kill outside mobs. There are simply a few problems here:

1. I haven't seen a Fungi King group pull trash in-between pulls. It's an unnecessary risk, and it is a pain to get back down there if you have to zone or wipe. You also risk losing the camp to another group. The point of camping Fungi King is to get Fungi Tunics, not to XP or get vendor trash.

2. When pulling mobs from outside of your camp radius, you are losing a lot of time due to travel/pull times. You aren't killing mobs very efficiently at that point anyway. The four extra seconds per kill isn't helping there either, because there is a lot more variability in the time it takes for the mob to get back to camp in the first place, depending on how consistent the puller is.

3. The only thing that has been ignored is the fact that a Shaman could root/rot trash if the group really wanted faster kill speeds when pulling trash in-between Fungi king spawns. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean you can't do it. I would never pull trash in-between Fungi King spawns, but you seem to think it's a good idea, and it is certainly doable.

[PlsNoBan]

Exactly. Safety matters, and a Shaman will help your group with DPS, utility, safety, and camp options all at the same time.

I am not ignoring the ability to kill outside mobs. There are simply a few problems here:

1. I haven't seen a Fungi King group pull trash in-between pulls. It's an unnecessary risk, and it is a pain to get back down there if you have to zone or wipe. You also risk losing the camp to another group. The point of camping Fungi King is to get Fungi Tunics, not to XP or get vendor trash.

2. When pulling mobs from outside of your camp radius, you are losing a lot of time due to travel/pull times. You aren't killing mobs very efficiently at that point anyway. The four extra seconds per kill isn't helping there either, because there is a lot more variability in the time it takes for the mob to get back to camp in the first place, depending on how consistent the puller is.

3. The only thing that has been ignored is the fact that a Shaman could root/rot trash if the group really wanted faster kill speeds when pulling trash in-between Fungi king spawns. Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean you can't do it. I would never pull trash in-between Fungi King spawns, but you seem to think it's a good idea, and it is certainly doable.

There is more than enough safety and utility in this group. You seem to think it stacks infinitely and it does not. You also acknowledge it by saying bringing 3 clerics is silly but your love for shaman is so deep that you refuse to believe that just maybe this group doesn't need utility and safety that the group already has a sufficient amount of. The only thing to be gained in this group setup is DPS. Even a marginal gain is better than no gain.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is more than enough safety and utility in this group. You seem to think it stacks infinitely and it does not. You also acknowledge it by saying bringing 3 clerics is silly but your love for shaman is so deep that you refuse to believe that just maybe this group doesn't need utility and safety that the group already has a sufficient amount of. The only thing to be gained in this group setup is DPS. Even a marginal gain is better than no gain.

Safety does stack. Having 2 healers means multiple people can be healed at the same time. Having a dedicated slower in the Shaman allows the Enchanters to focus on keeping their pets in check to minimize DPS loss from Charm Breaks.

The 4 Cleric example is not relevant because nobody has argued for 4 clerics. It goes against my DPS breakpoint argument, because that group wouldn't hit the necessary breakpoint to kill efficiently at that point.

The flaw with the idea that DPS stacks infinitely is DPS is an exponential function. Every time you double DPS, your returns will halve. So yes, you could do 800 DPS to a mob with 8000 HP, and it would die in 10 seconds. But the difference between 800 DPS and 700 DPS is 1.4 seconds. You are never going to get another spawn in a single session by saving 1.4 seconds, and the damage saved by killing it 1.4 seconds faster could easily be healed by the Shaman.

This is why only stacking DPS isn't the best idea when trying to maximize a group composition. You want enough DPS to maximize your kills per hour, and everything else goes into safety and maximizing camp options. I would much rather have more camp options than an extra 30 seconds AFK time when in-between mob cycles. At the end of the day the Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage groups are killing the same number of mobs per hour.

[cd288]

Ladies and gentlemen, DSM is almost at 900 posts in this thread. Amazingly absurd. Many people have come and gone from the discussion telling him he's wrong, but apparently that just means everyone else is wrong not DSM.

Can he break 1,000 with his sanctimonious paragraph length posts? Will we get even more new joiners telling him he's incorrect who he will just ignore and call trolls? Or will he find something better to do with his life and shock the world by no longer posting?

All these questions and more will be answered on the next episode of "DSM Ruining Threads"

[PlsNoBan]

The 4 Cleric example is not relevant because nobody has argued for 4 clerics. It goes against my DPS breakpoint argument

2 enchanters hits your breakpoint with good pets. If safety stacks infinitely and DPS beyond your breakpoint doesn't matter then the best group in everquest is 2 enchanters 4 clerics. Shaman still doesn't make the cut.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

2 enchanters hits your breakpoint with good pets. If safety stacks infinitely and DPS beyond your breakpoint doesn't matter then the best group in everquest is 2 enchanters 4 clerics. Shaman still doesn't make the cut.

Incorrect. A Shaman offers more utility and DPS than a cleric. The reason why you bring a single cleric is for resurrection and CHing the pets since they have a lot of HP. Multiple Clerics wouldn't offer much. You don't need to CH chain in a four man group. Having a Cleric and a Shaman gives you a much broader range of spells.

Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Cleric is a very strong group when looking at a four man composition. You get all the DPS you need, and a lot of utility and camp options too.

But as I said before, I agree with OP. Enchanter/Mage/Shaman/Necromancer is probably the best four man comp. You get all the utility you need, including CoTH from the Mage, and you hit the DPS breakpoints necessary for any content a four man group could do. It's easy enough to level a pocket cleric to 49 if your group wants the superior ressurection and CHing pets.

[PlsNoBan]

Cleric provides better healing outside of CH that does not snare/attack speed slow the target. You are high as giraffe pussy.

[Troxx]

Lol I take how many days off this forum and this is still going on?

Lol plsnoban love your new signature

And toxigen your avatar inspired me to watch No Country For Old Men this weekend

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Cleric provides better healing outside of CH that does not snare/attack speed slow the target. You are high as giraffe pussy.

Between slow and/or Shaman/Necro healing you will be fine. A Shaman can quick heal if necessary, and you don't want the snare. The Shaman can Torpor the Necro so they can keep healing if needed too.

[PlsNoBan]

Lol. I don't even have words for this one.

[cyxthryth]

Incorrect.

You are indeed incorrect - which seems to be quite a common occurrence as evidenced by this thread & your posts in it.

A Shaman offers more utility and DPS than a cleric. The reason why you bring a single cleric is for resurrection and CHing the pets since they have a lot of HP.

Multiple Clerics wouldn't offer much. You don't need to CH chain in a four man group. Having a Cleric and a Shaman gives you a much broader range of spells.

Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Cleric is a very strong group when looking at a four man composition. You get all the DPS you need, and a lot of utility and camp options too.

But as I said before, I agree with OP. Enchanter/Mage/Shaman/Necromancer is probably the best four man comp. You get all the utility you need, including CoTH from the Mage, and you hit the DPS breakpoints necessary for any content a four man group could do. It's easy enough to level a pocket cleric to 49 if your group wants the superior ressurection and CHing pets.

Your posts' content would seemingly reveal that you have either forgotten - or are for some reason attempting to purposefully ignore - the irrefutable fact that you have already admitted (in this very thread) that the Shaman would not Malo/Slow the majority of the mobs this group is killing.

With that irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - having been stated once again, you have simply not provided evidence of the relevant/useful "utility" & "much broader range of spells" that a Shaman would provide to an Enc/Enc/Cleric group which (objectively) already has sufficient heals, and (objectively) already has sufficient slows (additional reminder that you have admitted you would not use Malo/Slow on most mobs) and any mobs that do warrant/require being slowed can easily be handled by the 2x Enc.

Your posts' content would seemingly also reveal that you have forgotten - or are for some reason attempting to purposefully ignore - the irrefutable fact that Enc/Enc/Cleric already has sufficient wipe prevention because Enc, Enc, Cleric all can root & pacify & memblur. This means that even if one of the Enc dies there is ample opportunity to correct the situation without a full wipe occurring, especially if mobs are able to be memblurred/atone'd. A Shaman would NOT be able to rez & recover one of the Encs if they died, and the evidence betrays that you DO in fact realize this, because your post laughably tries to account for this by yet again moving goalposts. Remember, this is a discussion of a 4-man caster/priest group, which means "pocket clerics" have no place in this discussion and you bringing them up is wholly irrelevant (and disingenuous).

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

You wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that.

[Troxx]

Between slow and/or Shaman/Necro healing you will be fine. A Shaman can quick heal if necessary, and you don't want the snare. The Shaman can Torpor the Necro so they can keep healing if needed too.

Who is going to complete heal the 7-8k pet?

Beyond that, when charm does break who is going to impressively blast heal the ench and stun the pet?

Shaman and necro heal over times stack. Their healing potential is impressive but notably lacks emergency blast heal potential and … again … who is going to complete heal the massive hp enchanter pet? Or are you going to torpor the pet repeatedly killing its dps … and still barely make more than 17-25% dent (at best unless you have a really good high level pet) in its health per full torpor.

https://c.tenor.com/uPsmTyLxixcAAAAC/yap-i-smell-some-bullshit.gif

[Crede]

Who is going to complete heal the 7-8k pet?

Beyond that, when charm does break who is going to impressively blast heal the ench and stun the pet?

Shaman and necro heal over times stack. Their healing potential is impressive but notably lacks emergency blast heal potential and … again … who is going to complete heal the massive hp enchanter pet? Or are you going to torpor the pet repeatedly killing its dps … and still barely make more than 17-25% dent in its health per full torpor.

https://c.tenor.com/uPsmTyLxixcAAAAC/yap-i-smell-some-bullshit.gif

It’s already been mentioned.

The 5th pocket cleric DSM has suggested, lol. Cyxthrx just summed things up quite nicely.

[Chortles Snortles]

This is the song that doesn't end
Yes, it goes on and on, my friends
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
And they′ll continue singing it forever just because

[Vexenu]

At around page 800, DSM is going to admit that the major utility his Shaman brings is SoWing the group before they zone into Seb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Who is going to complete heal the 7-8k pet?

Beyond that, when charm does break who is going to impressively blast heal the ench and stun the pet?

Shaman and necro heal over times stack. Their healing potential is impressive but notably lacks emergency blast heal potential and … again … who is going to complete heal the massive hp enchanter pet? Or are you going to torpor the pet repeatedly killing its dps … and still barely make more than 17-25% dent (at best unless you have a really good high level pet) in its health per full torpor.


Since you haven't been in the discussion, you missed the part where you can level a pocket cleric to CH a pet if you really want that in-between pulls. You only need a level 39 cleric for CH.

An Enchanter can control their own Charm Breaks just fine, a Cleric isn't necessary. Enchanters can solo quite well with Charmed pets.

In an Enchanter/Shaman/Mage/Necro composition, tactics would change a bit. You would use a lower level slow on a mob so they simply don't do a lot of damage. Then the Necro heals will be just fine for keeping the pet up during combat. CH is best for when you are just killing mobs without slow. Tagar's insects costs 125 mana for a 50% slow. That is a very manageable mana cost for the Shaman, and the Enchanter/Shaman could even alternate to further save on mana.

The Shaman can also just slow tank if the group prefers that. This composition has four pets, and is easily doing 200 DPS just with the four pets.

On harder camps like Fungi King, plenty of trio comps don't have Clerics at all, and they kill King just fine with Torpor as the primary healing. On those kinds of mobs the DPS reduction doesn't matter as much because you will still never get an extra cycle of the mob. Saving 40 seconds on Fungi King would still require you to camp him for for something like 20 hours for you to get another spawn.

[Troxx]

So now our 4 man caster group has a pocket cleric to swap in between pulls to heal the pet …

https://c.tenor.com/EfIzNXUD22oAAAAd/moving-goal-posts-field.gif

#movethegoalposts

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So now our 4 man caster group has a pocket cleric to swap in between pulls to heal the pet …

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

[Troxx]

Lol you keep doing whatever mental gymnastics it takes for you to rationalize putting a shaman in the group.

You have sunk to depths of “low” in the intervening time that I didn’t think possible.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol you keep doing whatever mental gymnastics it takes for you to rationalize putting a shaman in the group.

You have sunk to depths of “low” in the intervening time that I didn’t think possible.

More trolling, and still no valid arguments.

I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with.

OP agrees I am not moving the goalposts, since his post was general. There is nothing that says you can't have a pocket cleric.

Since we seem to be assuming the players are experienced, I see no reason why a pocket cleric is a difficult thing to use.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/EfIzNXUD22oAAAAd/moving-goal-posts-field.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Seems like you haven't changed since you took a break from the forums.

You just troll when you can't counter an argument.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/HACqTtaXr_4AAAAC/bob-dumb.gif

[cyxthryth]

no valid arguments

As I have already stated to you multiple times, this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument. Why are you (seemingly) trying to simply argue instead of engage in civil discussion by backing up your position with relevant, factual data or evidence? :)

OP agrees I am not moving the goalposts, since his post was general. There is nothing that says you can't have a pocket cleric.

Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"? :)

Since we seem to be assuming the players are experienced, I see no reason why a pocket cleric is a difficult thing to use.

The problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others have given reason for you to believe that they believe "a pocket cleric is a difficult thing to use". It is not a difficult thing to use, and nobody has stated that it is - pocket clerics are simply objectively irrelevant to this discussion.

Remember: this thread is about a 4 caster/priest group. Speaking strictly mathematically, 4 =/= 5 hehe. :)

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[cyxthryth]

Seems like you haven't changed since you took a break from the forums.

Seems like all (both?) of the posters who have - even slightly - agreed with you have taken up corners to silently concede in hehe. :) Or perhaps they are preparing better/more well-constructed posts to support you? I eagerly await their replies - in addition to yours - hehe. :)

You just troll when you can't counter an argument.

No. You seemingly ignore posts and dodge questions while calling others trolls when you cannot provide evidence that supports your (unfounded, false, and/or irrelevant) claims or when you cannot counter irrefutable facts (which you simply cannot refute) or have been asked a direct question which you are seemingly unwilling or unable to answer without exposing that you are being disingenuous and/or "arguing" in bad faith (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument). In the event that this post is ignored I submit it as further evidence of you ignoring posts.

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[cd288]

As I have already stated to you multiple times, this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument. Why are you (seemingly) trying to simply argue instead of engage in civil discussion by backing up your position with relevant, factual data or evidence? :)



Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"? :)



The problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others have given reason for you to believe that they believe "a pocket cleric is a difficult thing to use". It is not a difficult thing to use, and nobody has stated that it is - pocket clerics are simply objectively irrelevant to this discussion.

Remember: this thread is about a 4 caster/priest group. Speaking strictly mathematically, 4 =/= 5 hehe. :)

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Yup. He’s now clinging to the “this was general” comment after literally moving the goalposts multiple times creating very specific scenarios that he argued endlessly about. When he was proven wrong he created new scenarios. When he was proven wrong again he shifted to his current stance. It’s the funniest thing I’ve watched on these forums ever I think.

The only thing that might have been funnier is when eisley and santagar shat all over everyone in the course of supporting vanquish and then got kicked from the guild like a week later

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yup. He’s now clinging to the “this was general” comment after literally moving the goalposts multiple times creating very specific scenarios that he argued endlessly about. When he was proven wrong he created new scenarios. When he was proven wrong again he shifted to his current stance. It’s the funniest thing I’ve watched on these forums ever I think.

The only thing that might have been funnier is when eisley and santagar shat all over everyone in the course of supporting vanquish and then got kicked from the guild like a week later

Having multiple conversations simultaneously is not moving goalposts. Talking about pocket clerics when OP didn't specify that was outside of the scope is not moving goalposts. OP's question was general, and he has said as much. But you have proven your reading comprehension is seriously lacking with your previous posts.

It is sad when you have to agree with cyxthryth who isn't making any valid points. He just keeps copy/pasting nonsense because he thinks he is mimicking how I post. It is a very poor attempt.

[cd288]

Having multiple conversations simultaneously is not moving goalposts. Talking about pocket clerics when OP didn't specify that was outside of the scope is not moving goalposts. OP's question was general, and he has said as much. But you have proven your reading comprehension is seriously lacking with your previous posts.

It is sad when you have to agree with cyxthryth who isn't making any valid points. He just keeps copy/pasting nonsense because he thinks he is mimicking how I post. It is a very poor attempt.

DSM talking about someone else writing nonsense and calling people "sad" is pretty rich

As is claiming that he's not moving goalposts he's having multiple different conversations...when in actuality it's multiple people all discussing the same subject (which is whatever new scenario DSM has invented for why he wasn't wrong).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM talking about someone else writing nonsense and calling people "sad" is pretty rich

As is claiming that he's not moving goalposts he's having multiple different conversations...when in actuality it's multiple people all discussing the same subject (which is whatever new scenario DSM has invented for why he wasn't wrong).

Please show me where you think I moved goalposts.

I won't hold my breath though, because you can't show proof for any of the things you have accused me of.

[cd288]

Please show me where you think I moved goalposts.

I won't hold my breath though, because you can't show proof for any of the things you have accused me of.

....

Lmao dude just go back through your 900 posts and you can watch the different evolving arguments you've made. Typical DSM...spams a thread with a million posts and then demands someone take like an hour to go back through all his endless, novel length posts and quote them back to him. What a moron...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

....

Lmao dude just go back through your 900 posts and you can watch the different evolving arguments you've made. Typical DSM...spams a thread with a million posts and then demands someone take like an hour to go back through all his endless, novel length posts and quote them back to him. What a moron...

Perfect excuse. You just accuse me of nonsense and then say you are too lazy to find where you think I did this.

The only reason why this thread is so long is because of the 1000+ troll/insult/meme posts from people who simply can't stand being disagreed with. I didn't force them to write those posts lol, I am not sure how you think this is part of some grand strategy on my part.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/y5_RIe62OscAAAAd/tommy-boy-chris-farley.gif

[cd288]

Perfect excuse. You just accuse me of nonsense and then say you are too lazy to find where you think I did this.

The only reason why this thread is so long is because of the 1000+ troll/insult/meme posts from people who simply can't stand being disagreed with. I didn't force them to write those posts lol, I am not sure how you think this is part of some grand strategy on my part.

Yeah you know, the thread definitely couldn't be long because of one guy posting over 900 times right? Or because the guy posting over 900 times writes like 5 paragraph rambling whiney essays half the time right?

This thread would've ended like 150 pages ago but you just want to whine and keep arguing about why you're right and like 15 other people are wrong. You must be really fun at parties.

Also, the vast majority of those 1000+ posts you're talking about are concrete disputes and proving you wrong but you like to call ALL of them troll posts. Shows everyone all they need to know about you

[cyxthryth]

Having multiple conversations simultaneously is not moving goalposts.

You have provided zero evidence that anybody has claimed or implied that "having multiple conversations simultaneously is moving goalposts" hehe. :)

Talking about pocket clerics when OP didn't specify that was outside of the scope is not moving goalposts.

The data says otherwise, as is made evident by the irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - that the title of this thread is "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" and - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5 hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

OP's question was general, and he has said as much.

What relevance is your post intended to indicate you believe stating "OP's question was general" has? :)

It is sad when you have to agree with cyxthryth who isn't making any valid points.

I have made plenty of valid points and have refuted plenty of your invalid/irrelevant ones hehe. :) You have not replied to multiple posts and have dodged multiple direct questions, as if you have been backed into a corner "arguing" from bad faith (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument). The post history is clear & speaks for itself, and I submit it as evidence of this irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute.

He just keeps copy/pasting nonsense because he thinks he is mimicking how I post. It is a very poor attempt.

No. I am not copy/pasting "nonsense" just because you choose to state it hehe. The problem is that your post seems to indicate that you think that I think I am mimicking how you post. I am merely attempting to engage in civil discussion with you, and you have provided zero evidence to support your claim that you know what I think.

It is not my fault that your post would seemingly indicate that you believe my attempts at communicating to you are "poor attempts". Do you believe it is "a less poor attempt" to outright ignore posts and questions directed toward you in a civil discussion? :)


Please show me where you think I moved goalposts.

The data shows that you have attempted to include a 5th "pocket" character in the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group".

Speaking strictly mathematically, 4 =/= 5 hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

[Troxx]

Keep it up boys … 300 is on the horizon!

https://c.tenor.com/-xd2i1TKJC8AAAAC/nosleepgang-squad.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah you know, the thread definitely couldn't be long because of one guy posting over 900 times right?

This thread would've ended like 150 pages ago but you just want to whine and keep arguing about why you're right and like 15 other people are wrong. You must be really fun at parties.

PlsNoBan has 460 posts currently, at least 400 of them are literally just insults/memes/trolling.

Troxx has 268 posts currently, at least 200 of them are literally just insults/memes/trolling.

Cyxthryth has 184 posts currently, literally all of it is just copy/paste nonsense.

Ripqozko has 95 posts, at least 80 of them are literally just insults/memes/trolling.

Karanis has 84 posts, at least 70 of them are literally just insults/memes/trolling.

Toxigen has 60 posts, at least 60 of them are literally just insults/memes/trolling.

You yourself have 100 posts, many of which are just insulting me.

The trolls are easily keeping pace. You always forget this is not a one sided conversation, where I am posting and nobody is replying.

But this doesn't fit your silly narrative, so you conveniently forget this. I would rather have 900 posts that are defending myself and trying to have a conversation as opposed to 1000+ posts of just insults/memes/trolling. You really don't understand that the vast majority of these poster's posts have nothing to do with the conversation.

I am not the one who started the insults/memes/trolling, I am simply defending myself from them. The majority of my posts wouldn't exist if I didn't need to defend myself from insults/memes/trolling.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/LckUyX8.png

[cyxthryth]

Cyxthryth has 184 posts currently, literally all of it is just copy/paste nonsense.

This would of course be - objectively - false hehe.

You always forget this is not a one sided conversation, where I am posting and nobody is replying.

You have provided no evidence that cd288 - or any other poster - "has forgotten this is not a one sided conversation" (nor evidence to support your claim of somehow knowing what others have forgotten hehe :)), so I am not sure what relevance you think stating this - false, and unsubstantiated - claim has to this discussion, or what point you think you are making or fact you think you are refuting by stating it hehe. :)

But this doesn't fit your silly narrative, so you conveniently forget this.

Further evidence of DSM simply calling something "silly" when he seemingly cannot refute irrefutable facts nor reply to direct questions without exposing that he is being disingenuous and/or "arguing" from bad faith (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) hehe. :)

I would rather have 900 posts that are defending myself and trying to have a conversation as opposed to 1000+ posts of just insults/memes/trolling.

Please provide evidence that you are "trying to have a conversation", as the evidence/data thus far - which is visible to all, in this thread's post history - would seem to expose that you are actually simply "arguing" from bad faith (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument). I submit the entirety of this thread as evidence of this irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - and you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any counter-evidence.

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

So did DSM give up trying to prove shamans are good dps (within spitting distance of mages) in fast paced, high dps groups? Is this why we are now talking about kicking out the cleric in lieu of having a shaman … but saying “that’s ok because you can just have a pocket cleric and to log in for pet cheals, buffs and rezzes”?

Or did we just get on another stupid side tangent like when he stated warriors solo better than enchanters at lower levels (enchanters who can charm no less)?

I would have said this entire situation was unfathomable … but DSM proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that anything is possible if you do enough drugs.

https://c.tenor.com/UIwmZgWJbh8AAAAC/tori-toys.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So did DSM give up trying to prove shamans are good dps (within spitting distance of mages) in fast paced, high dps groups? Is this why we are now talking about kicking out the cleric in lieu of having a shaman … but saying “that’s ok because you can just have a pocket cleric and to log in for pet cheals, buffs and rezzes”?

Or did we just get on another stupid side tangent like when he stated warriors solo better than enchanters at lower levels (enchanters who can charm no less)?

I would have said this entire situation was unfathomable … but DSM proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that anything is possible if you do enough drugs.


You should re-read the conversation instead of just trolling if you are curious.

I would advise ignoring all of the strawmen, insults, memes, etc. that will be posted below (probably from yourself as well, since you are also posting strawmen, insults, memes, etc).

[Troxx]

Was a consensus ever reached?
Did you change anybody’s mind?
Did you have an epiphany at any point?
Or did we just move the goal posts and get lost on silly tangents?

I think I’m better off not wasting my time. I can pretty well imagine how the preceding 30 pages went. I submit as evidence the 200 pages that came before it to support my suspicions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Was a consensus ever reached?
Did you change anybody’s mind?
Did you have an epiphany at any point?
Or did we just move the goal posts and get lost on silly tangents?

I think I’m better off not wasting my time. I can pretty well imagine how the preceding 30 pages went. I submit as evidence the 200 pages that came before it to support my suspicions.

Consensus wasn't reached because the trolls are not interested in having a conversation.

I didn't move goalposts, and I am not sure why you think I am creating tangents. Multiple users are having conversations with me that have different points. That is not a problem by itself, but I am not controlling these posters to do so.

You can stop posting if you aren't going to contribute anything other than nonsense and trolling.

[cyxthryth]

You should re-read the conversation instead of just trolling if you are curious.

For those who need a refresher of the discussion, the current data is as follows.

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why he believes doing so is not an example of moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

(Lol)

[Troxx]

You can stop posting if you aren't going to contribute anything other than nonsense and trolling.

https://c.tenor.com/K2GHKs5QlTMAAAAd/the-irony-irony.gif

[cyxthryth]

Consensus wasn't reached because the trolls are not interested in having a conversation.

I have made it evident that I am interested in having a conversation with you, and I have repeatedly attempted to get you to engage in a civil discussion with me. In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - the evidence that I have provided (multiple times) would seem to indicate/expose that that you are not actually interested in having a conversation with me and are in reality simply "arguing" from bad faith instead (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument), or would seem to indicate that you have been backed into a corner with no ability to defend your position(s) with factual, relevant data or evidence.

I didn't move goalposts, and I am not sure why you think I am creating tangents.

You moved goalposts and attempted to justify it, and are now denying it. I am not sure why your post(s) would seem to indicate that you believe that ignoring or denying these irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute - will make them go away hehe. :) It won't.

Multiple users are having conversations with me that have different points. That is not a problem by itself, but I am not controlling these posters to do so.

Thank you for admitting that other users have points. You might consider making some yourself if you are interested in engaging in civil discussion, but please ensure they are both relevant to the discussion, and factual hehe. :)

You can stop posting if you aren't going to contribute anything other than nonsense and trolling.

Anyone can stop posting at any time for any reason, I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting by stating "You can stop posting if you aren't going to contribute anything other than nonsense and trolling." hehe. :)

[cd288]

TIL telling someone they are wrong and reiterating why counts as trolling to DSM.

Basically his definition of trolling is if you post multiple times that he’s wrong and telling him why…because to him you’re just essentially spamming the same thing over and over. When in reality you’re continuing to reiterate what you’ve said before because he’s wrong.

It’s pretty funny. DSM’s definition of trolling is actually exactly in line with what he himself does (I.e. relentlessly tell someone they’re wrong and repost the same arguments over and over just with different words some of the time).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

TIL telling someone they are wrong and reiterating why counts as trolling to DSM.

Basically his definition of trolling is if you post multiple times that he’s wrong and telling him why…because to him you’re just essentially spamming the same thing over and over. When in reality you’re continuing to reiterate what you’ve said before because he’s wrong.

It’s pretty funny. DSM’s definition of trolling is actually exactly in line with what he himself does (I.e. relentlessly tell someone they’re wrong and repost the same arguments over and over just with different words some of the time).

This is just nonsense.

I didn't start the insults/memes/trolling. The post history is clear.

I am keeping the conversation on track and preventing the trolls from diluting the conversation with nonsense posts. That is not trolling, that is defending yourself from trolling.

This thread wouldn't be a fraction of what it is if people just respectfully disagreed. You don't have to agree with me. That is fine. But throwing a tantrum because you don't like what I say is trolling. 1000+ posts of insults/trolling/memes because you disagree with me is trolling.

You accuse me of random things in an attempt to discredit me, while being completely unable to actually prove any of your accusations. I am not sure why you think you are doing something good here. I can't tell if you are trolling, or have just read everything I have said wrong. Since it is clear you have reading comprehension issues, it's hard to say which one is true.

[Troxx]

I’m bored at work so I’m getting caught up. So far up to page 225. Apparently while I was out enjoying life DSM really took a pegging …

https://c.tenor.com/fmVGneW7fx0AAAAC/butt-broad-city.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m bored at work so I’m getting caught up. So far up to page 225. Apparently while I was out enjoying life DSM really took a pegging …

Not at all. The data continues to support what I have said.

Simply trolling isn't proving a point, or contributing in any meaningful way.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/NebUwwrvIk4AAAAC/men-getting-pegged-pegging.gif

[Troxx]

Up to page 240 and it still isn’t lookin’ good for your anus

https://c.tenor.com/nSx6t7ZTpusAAAAC/colon-mochrie-butt.gif

[cyxthryth]

Not at all. The data continues to support what I have said.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.


Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Troxx]

Lol we are back to copy/pasting his napkin-math dissertation!


https://c.tenor.com/qXZnqbjTTA0AAAAC/cheerleaders-cheerleading.gif

So far:
-shamans are almost as good dps as mages (wrong)
-warriors solo better than enchanters after they get charm (wrong)
-shamans can root rot 5 mobs in fast moving xp groups to “help out” (wrong)
-unnecessary utility is better than more dps cause moar heals/utility always bettah (wrong)
-we are bringing pocket clerics into this theoretical discussion (lol wtf?)

This thread keeps on giving!

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.


Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)

Now let's continue our civil discussion!

[tadkins]

So in the end, does all this really matter? It's a 20+ year old game, let people play what they want. You can succeed without the most optimal group and the most fine-tuned numbers, can't you?

[Toxigen]

Since you haven't been in the discussion, you missed the part where you can level a pocket cleric to CH a pet if you really want that in-between pulls. You only need a level 39 cleric for CH.

An Enchanter can control their own Charm Breaks just fine, a Cleric isn't necessary. Enchanters can solo quite well with Charmed pets.

In an Enchanter/Shaman/Mage/Necro composition, tactics would change a bit. You would use a lower level slow on a mob so they simply don't do a lot of damage. Then the Necro heals will be just fine for keeping the pet up during combat. CH is best for when you are just killing mobs without slow. Tagar's insects costs 125 mana for a 50% slow. That is a very manageable mana cost for the Shaman, and the Enchanter/Shaman could even alternate to further save on mana.




godamn you're impossible

literally everything you said there is either flat out wrong or just plain stupid

-3_ALLadQ1M

[Gloomlord]

Why bring a "pocket cleric" into this?

How is not an admission of defeat right here?

[PlsNoBan]

So far:
-shamans are almost as good dps as mages (wrong)
-warriors solo better than enchanters after they get charm (wrong)
-shamans can root rot 5 mobs in fast moving xp groups to “help out” (wrong)
-unnecessary utility is better than more dps cause moar heals/utility always bettah (wrong)
-we are bringing pocket clerics into this theoretical discussion (lol wtf?)

This is pretty accurate. The goalpost moving and changing arguments on the fly is getting out of hand lol. You can't have an honest discussion with someone that won't even acknowledge when they're backed into a corner and pinned down with a contradiction of their own words. His own data that he loves so much proves the opposite of his initial argument and he won't even admit that. He just moved the goalpost and changed the argument to "DPS doesn't matter after this arbitrary DSM breakpoint that I made up" so he can act like his useless utility and heals matter more. It's funny how hyper focused he was on proving how much DPS shamans can do then the data proved mages do way more and on a fucking dime he changes to "DPS dont matter if its not enough to get an entire extra spawn cycle in like an hour cause nobody on p99 plays the game all day long (lol)" which is completely ludicrous for a variety of reasons. The pocket cleric argument is ALMOST the most retarded thing he's ever said. Warriors soloing better than enchanters still holds the crown tho imo.

Said it before and will say it again: Either biggest troll I've ever seen or legitimately one of the stupidest. Not sure which is better honestly. I guess 3rd possible option is he's legitimately mentally handicapped IRL and we're all pieces of shit for making fun of the disabled kid. Not really our fault tho there's no way for anyone to know.

[PlsNoBan]

I keep half expecting DSM's mom to start posting about how he has issues and we all need to stop making fun of him


P.S. DSM's mom if you're reading this and he actually has some kind of issue please say something or at least DM me. I may be a dick but I'm not trying to make fun of people with actual mental disabilities.

[Karanis]

18777

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.


The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.


Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)

[Kich867]

So far:
-shamans are almost as good dps as mages (wrong)
-warriors solo better than enchanters after they get charm (wrong)
-shamans can root rot 5 mobs in fast moving xp groups to “help out” (wrong)
-unnecessary utility is better than more dps cause moar heals/utility always bettah (wrong)
-we are bringing pocket clerics into this theoretical discussion (lol wtf?)

This thread keeps on giving!

The rest is whatever, but, the point about warriors was that at low levels, pre-30ish, a twinked warrior levels faster than enchanters. If it's not faster, I'm sure it's quite close, but I'm pretty sure you could level a twinked warrior faster than you could level a twinked [any caster] because twinking melee characters is extremely powerful at low levels relative to casters.

Like, starting fresh twinked characters, the warrior would get a huge lead anyways because they basically insta-kill everything they touch until they're like level 15.

I don't care how you feel about DSM but people trying to say that low level twinked casters are somehow faster at soloing than twinked [any melee character] who have just way, way higher DPS and tankiness at those levels makes me think I'm taking crazy pills. Once the bullshit of twink gear fades, totally, I agree with you, the raw power of casters is just better, but low level mobs aren't really designed to handle the damage output of the dank ass weapons, haste, and regen items you can give melee characters.

I've never heard the take that low level melee twinks are bad at leveling, ever. Am I crazy? Like I honestly can't tell if this is just some stupid contrarian take because you don't like DSM or you've just never given a melee character dope gear and plowed through the beginning of the game before.

[PlsNoBan]

The rest is whatever, but, the point about warriors was that at low levels, pre-30ish, a twinked warrior levels faster than enchanters. If it's not faster, I'm sure it's quite close, but I'm pretty sure you could level a twinked warrior faster than you could level a twinked [any caster] because twinking melee characters is extremely powerful at low levels relative to casters.

Like, starting fresh twinked characters, the warrior would get a huge lead anyways because they basically insta-kill everything they touch until they're like level 15.

I don't care how you feel about DSM but people trying to say that low level twinked casters are somehow faster at soloing than twinked [any melee character] who have just way, way higher DPS and tankiness at those levels makes me think I'm taking crazy pills. Once the bullshit of twink gear fades, totally, I agree with you, the raw power of casters is just better, but low level mobs aren't really designed to handle the damage output of the dank ass weapons, haste, and regen items you can give melee characters.

I've never heard the take that low level melee twinks are bad at leveling, ever. Am I crazy? Like I honestly can't tell if this is just some stupid contrarian take because you don't like DSM or you've just never given a melee character dope gear and plowed through the beginning of the game before.

He specifically said no fungi/regen items. He had like 2 mediocre weapons and a SCHW and claimed to out solo an enchanter cause his DPS was higher than a charm pet in his mid 20s. First of all: debatable and depends on the charm pet and what weapons. You also have to consider damage caps for melee at low lvl limiting the effectiveness of twink weapons. He also openly admitted to not hasting his charm pets in this comparison. He also acted like it was an absurd idea that you could get free mage pet toys in EC for your charms. Something I did frequently when leveling my enc. None of that matters though cause fact of the matter is that without a fungi and the only twinking being weapons and a SCHW a warrior is going to have fairly large periods of downtime. The DPS could be 3x higher than a charm pet (it's not) and warrior would still lose due to downtime. There's no fucking chance a warrior solos with less downtime than an enc with no regen item or buffs. DSM in typical DSM fashion completely disregarded this and just kept talking about his questionable DPS data cause that's what suited his agenda at that particular moment. It changes frequently around here.

Everyone knows heavy twinking with fungi is a game changer. A fully twinked warrior with fungi almost certainly will solo more effectively in early levels. I'm not sure precisely when the enchanter would overtake warrior regardless of twink status. Probably somewhere around low-mid 30s? Certainly by 40 a well played enc is clowning a warrior no matter what they're wearing. Charm pets start to scale and become significantly more powerful than melee players of equivalent level. Also the effectiveness of a fungi tunic gets significantly weaker the higher level you get. Unless you're soloing weak LB's for minimal xp you're still going to have way more downtime than enc. Prolly more downtime even killing LB's at 40+

[Karanis]

He specifically said no fungi/regen items. He had like 2 mediocre weapons and a SCHW and claimed to out solo an enchanter cause his DPS was higher than a charm pet in his mid 20s. First of all: debatable and depends on the charm pet and what weapons. He also openly admitted to not hasting his charm pets in this comparison. He also acted like it was an absurd idea that you could get free mage pet toys in EC for your charms. Something I did frequently when leveling my enc. None of that matters though cause fact of the matter is that without a fungi and the only twinking being weapons and a SCHW a warrior is going to have fairly large periods of downtime. The DPS could be 3x higher than a charm pet (it's not) and warrior would still lose due to downtime. There's no fucking chance a warrior solos with less downtime than an enc with no regen item or buffs.

DSM in typical DSM fashion completely disregarded this and just kept talking about his questionable DPS data cause that's what suited his agenda at that particular moment. It changes frequently around here.

18782

[Jimjam]

I went to velks spiders the other day. I pulled the usual way for current meta (up to 5 mobs a time) and shaman was root rotting adds with epic. So it does happen in a ‘real’ context.

Hows the thread gone since Ally posted mage logs? I wish I had been there to cotp/son the pet :D

[PlsNoBan]

Hows the thread gone since Ally posted mage logs? I wish I had been there to cotp/son the pet :D

It forced DSM to (once again) shift goalposts and arguments. He went from "Shamans do almost the same damage as mages" then realizing mages do way more cause of those logs and decided "More DPS is completely irrelevant unless you get an extra named/PH cycle from the DPS gain in a session of like 2 hours" which is obviously absurd and no realistic amount of DPS would achieve that. Takes like 20+ minutes for shit to respawn in this game and even with mediocre DPS you're killing it in like a minute. You could literally use his "DPS breakpoint" logic to justify a paladin being just as good as a rogue for a DPS slot in a group. It's insanely stupid. The things he comes up with are mind boggling.

[Kich867]

He specifically said no fungi/regen items. He had like 2 mediocre weapons and a SCHW and claimed to out solo an enchanter cause his DPS was higher than a charm pet in his mid 20s. First of all: debatable and depends on the charm pet and what weapons. You also have to consider damage caps for melee at low lvl limiting the effectiveness of twink weapons. He also openly admitted to not hasting his charm pets in this comparison. He also acted like it was an absurd idea that you could get free mage pet toys in EC for your charms. Something I did frequently when leveling my enc. None of that matters though cause fact of the matter is that without a fungi and the only twinking being weapons and a SCHW a warrior is going to have fairly large periods of downtime. The DPS could be 3x higher than a charm pet (it's not) and warrior would still lose due to downtime. There's no fucking chance a warrior solos with less downtime than an enc with no regen item or buffs. DSM in typical DSM fashion completely disregarded this and just kept talking about his questionable DPS data cause that's what suited his agenda at that particular moment. It changes frequently around here.

Sure, no regen items, but if you had pretty ballin weapons and a huge AC/HP pool, you really do not take that much damage at those levels as a warrior. You spend less time in combat because you're murdering the thing and your AC is so high they aren't often hitting you for max damage. It's not like you're waiting for full hp, you're just bandaging to 50% for each mob, it doesn't really take that long, it's not like cripplingly slow downtime. Even on my entirely untwinked warrior my downtime between mobs was like a minute tops and he had probably 1/10th the damage output so he had to eat way more hits during combat than a twink would.

Damage cap--totally, but you can have pre-level 10 or 20 weapons that are good for those levels, there's pretty nasty weapons that proc at level 1, Venomous Axe nukes for 85 and costs like 1.7-2k on green and it hovers just around the damage cap early on.

And while I'm sure I'm just ignorant about something here--I'm suspicious about the implication(?) that enchanters have basically no downtime. Everything in that process costs mana, you do end up having to nuke the mobs at some point, and anything that goes wrong costs more mana, even if you get to med most of the time your mana regen isn't that great at low levels, no?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It forced DSM to (once again) shift goalposts and arguments. He went from "Shamans do almost the same damage as mages" then realizing mages do way more cause of those logs and decided "More DPS is completely irrelevant unless you get an extra named/PH cycle from the DPS gain in a session of like 2 hours" which is obviously absurd and no realistic amount of DPS would achieve that. Takes like 20+ minutes for shit to respawn in this game and even with mediocre DPS you're killing it in like a minute. You could literally use his "DPS breakpoint" logic to justify a paladin being just as good as a rogue for a DPS slot in a group. It's insanely stupid. The things he comes up with are mind boggling.

I didn't shift goalposts at all lol. You don't even know what this means. Earlier in thread, the data from Troxx showed Mage Pets do less DPS. His Pet data may still be true for non-Epic Mages, which is the vast majority of Mages. I am just strong manning the argument by using an Epic Pet because it is the highest DPS possible. Updating an argument due to getting new data isn't changing the goalposts, it's just normal procedure lol. And the Epic Mage still doesn't make a significant difference with the DPS breakpoints. It's 4.3 seconds per kill in the case of Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

DPS does increase kills per hour silly lol. It just stops doing so after you hit the optimal breakpoint. Going from 100 DPS to 200 DPS saves 40 seconds per kill on a mob with 8000 HP. If you are killing 20 mobs, that is saving 1600 seconds per hour. You are getting more spawn cycles with that much time saved.


I've never heard the take that low level melee twinks are bad at leveling, ever. Am I crazy? Like I honestly can't tell if this is just some stupid contrarian take because you don't like DSM or you've just never given a melee character dope gear and plowed through the beginning of the game before.


No, you are not crazy Kitch867 about Warriors and Enchanters. PlsNoBan is just being a contrarian to try and prove me wrong. He has admitted to being a troll multiple times.

I did talk about downtime, he just doesn't understand that Enchanters from 12-30 have a good chunk of downtime too. For some reason his argument is Enchanter's don't have downtime from 12-30, which is just nonsense. My Enchanter had plenty of downtime from 12-30. But of course, he will probably just say I am a bad player or something, because he has no evidence of downtime comparisons. He also forgot we are talking about grouping, not soloing, so the downtime would be different. He also just discards all data that disagrees with him lol.

I went to velks spiders the other day. I pulled the usual way for current meta (up to 5 mobs a time) and shaman was root rotting adds with epic. So it does happen in a ‘real’ context.

Exactly!

[PlsNoBan]

I didn't shift goalposts at all lol. You don't even know what this means. Earlier in thread, the data from Troxx showed Mage Pets do less DPS. His Pet data may still be true for non-Epic Mages, which is the vast majority of Mages. I am just strong manning the argument by using an Epic Pet because it is the highest DPS possible. Updating an argument due to getting new data isn't changing the goalposts, it's just normal procedure lol. And the Epic Mage still doesn't make a significant difference with the DPS breakpoints. It's 4.3 seconds per kill in the case of Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

DPS does increase kills per hour silly lol. It just stops doing so after you hit the optimal breakpoint. Going from 100 DPS to 200 DPS saves 40 seconds per kill on a mob with 8000 HP. If you are killing 20 mobs, that is saving 1600 seconds per hour. You are getting more spawn cycles with that much time saved.




No, you are not crazy Kitch867 about Warriors and Enchanters. PlsNoBan is just being a contrarian to try and prove me wrong. He has admitted to being a troll multiple times.

I did talk about downtime, he just doesn't understand that Enchanters from 12-30 have a good chunk of downtime too. For some reason his argument is Enchanter's don't have downtime from 12-30, which is just nonsense. My Enchanter had plenty of downtime from 12-30. But of course, he will probably just say I am a bad player or something, because he has no evidence of downtime comparisons. He also forgot we are talking about grouping, not soloing, so the downtime would be different. He also just discards all data that disagrees with him lol.



Exactly!

Ah shit. I thought your mom pulled your internet access or something cause you didn't post for like half a day. Was kinda nice not having a post full of complete nonsense every 5 minutes.

You absolutely did and continue to shift goalposts and change your arguments when you're proven wrong. Enchanter downtime is MUCH less than warrior without regen item/buff. The warrior is also most likely fighting mobs much lower level than them to take as little damage as possible cause they aren't regenning for shit. Enchanters typically fight higher level mobs by comparison. The XP difference is fairly noticeable and should be taken into account. But this is probably the dumbest argument you've made. I'd personally steer clear of this one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah shit. I thought your mom pulled your internet access or something cause you didn't post for like half a day. Was kinda nice not having a post full of complete nonsense every 5 minutes.

You absolutely did and continue to shift goalposts and change your arguments when you're proven wrong. Enchanter downtime is MUCH less than warrior without regen item/buff. The warrior is also most likely fighting mobs much lower level than them to take as little damage as possible cause they aren't regenning for shit. Enchanters typically fight higher level mobs by comparison. The XP difference is fairly noticeable and should be taken into account. But this is probably the dumbest argument you've made. I'd personally steer clear of this one.

Nah. You need to prove your points with evidence. So far you have provided zero evidence for every argument made in this thread lol.

Enchanters 12-30 have plenty of downtime too due to lower meditation and mana regen buffs (less mana per tick), more fizzling (lower skills), more interrupts (lower channeling), more resists (lower level tash). I leveled an Enchanter from 12-30 recently, I know this very well. I was also leveling my Warrior.

The only proof so far is that you have admitted to being a troll:

Everyone (including you) has trolled at various points in this thread. Troll posts are not the majority of my posts. I have zero issue admitting when I'm doing so. Unlike some of us :rolleyes:

This is one of multiple quotes of you admitting you are trolling. You are incorrect that I am trolling, and are also vastly underestimating the number of troll posts you have made. It is well over 300, and you have around 470 posts in this thread.

[Tewaz]

Guys, please log off and quit fighting over 23 year old elf quest.

[cyxthryth]

Oops! Double-post hehe. :)

[cyxthryth]

shaman was root rotting adds with epic. So it does happen in a ‘real’ context. :

"Adds?" Please clarify... are you intending to convey that you were pulling 5 mobs at a time and the Shaman was rooting yet-additional (6th+) mobs? Or were the "adds" that were being root/rotted just part of what you have implied is the "current meta ([your pulls of] up to 5 mobs at a time)" standard/normal pull and you are simply calling them "adds" for an unknown/undefined reason?

What other classes were in this group, did it happen to have an Enchanter, and how long did it utilize this method/strategy of Shaman root rotting "adds"? For the sake of the - civil - discussion, it would be best to make these relevant factors clear. It's common for a Shaman and/or other classes to be rooting mobs as the groups primary CC if, for example, Root is the most dependable or only available form of CC the group has. At which point if heals are not needed, there isn't really much else for a Shaman to do against the primary DPS target - remember a Shaman won't be bothering to Malo or Slow mobs that die within 30s per DSM's posts in this thread, and Shaman will not get full value from their DoTs on targets that die too quickly - which will die in 30s anyway, so this hypothetical Shaman may as well DoT the "adds" because there is not much else it can (meaningfully) contribute. Let's be perfectly clear that in this specific scenario, you are pulling these mobs to the group and the Shaman is staying with the group, the Shaman has not ran off to fight "additional" mobs (over the 5 that you/the group have pulled) outside of the group (even though you are calling these mobs "adds" despite the fact that they were in your initial [presumably intentional] pull of 5 mobs at a time, which you have suggested is the meta, and not "additional mobs" to those 5). What DSM had earlier been claiming is that his Shaman could go fight / root/rot mobs independently from the group "if the group cares about DPS" hehe. :) Very different scenarios, objectively.

if you had pretty ballin weapons and a huge AC/HP pool

Hypotheticals can be valuable to discussions, however, such loosely defined variables as "pretty ballin weapons and a huge AC/HP pool" cannot be quantified, and I am not sure what point your post would seem to imply you think proposing the hypothetical Warrior "has pretty ballin weapons and a huge AC/HP pool" is making or what fact you think it is refuting.

And while I'm sure I'm just ignorant about something here--I'm suspicious about the implication(?) that enchanters have basically no downtime. Everything in that process costs mana, you do end up having to nuke the mobs at some point, and anything that goes wrong costs more mana, even if you get to med most of the time your mana regen isn't that great at low levels, no?

I am not sure what evidence there is in this thread - if any - of an implication that "chanters have basically no downtime" that has caused you to have such a suspicion?

I didn't shift goalposts at all lol. You don't even know what this means.

Both claims you have made in the above Quote are unsubstatiated and false. You have shifted/moved goalposts multiple times, and this irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple people.

Updating an argument due to getting new data isn't changing the goalposts, it's just normal procedure lol.

Your post would seem to suggest that you have forgotten - or are intentionally attempting to ignore - the irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - that you have moved goalposts by attempting to bring an irrelevant/outside-the-scope-of-the-discussion 5th "pocket" character into this thread's discussion about "Best 4 person all caster/priest group". You have additionally provided zero evidence of what (you believe that) "normal procedure" is, and why you (seemingly) believe that stating that you have not moved goalposts - when you indeed have - can somehow cause the fact that you [I]have moved goalposts to be ignored or to somehow go away if you claim that "Updating an argument due to getting new data isn't changing the goalposts, it's just normal procedure" hehe. :) The facts will not change, nor go away.

This also sounds familiar hehe. :) I seem to recall you had made the - unsubstantiated, false & laughable - claim that you were not moving goalposts simply because you and the OP both agree that his post "was general" (whatever that means) - AKA argumentum ad populum hehe. :)

And the Epic Mage still doesn't make a significant difference with the DPS breakpoints. It's 4.3 seconds per kill in the case of Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

The problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that your opinion of what is significant - such as a difference in kill time of 4.3 seconds per mob - is objective; it is not - it is simply your opinion hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

The only proof so far is that you have admitted to being a troll

Nah hehe. :)

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[Crede]

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that DSM refuses to have a discussion with cyxthryth? He claims he's a troll, but honestly just think he's afraid to play his forum chess game with him because he doesn't know how to respond to his rebuttals.

The 2 goalpost shifts by DSM(5th pocket cleric & DPS breakpoint) pretty much confirms the fact that shamans are useless(they can't cheal/rez & you can hit the dps breakpoint without them. They really bring nothing to the table, this is why you don't really see enchanter/cleric/shaman trios, the enchanter/cleric knows they just don't need a shaman.

There's honestly no point in continuing to argue with him. You will not convince him otherwise, the majority of us know the truth.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that DSM refuses to have a discussion with cyxthryth? He claims he's a troll, but honestly just think he's afraid to play his forum chess game with him because he doesn't know how to respond to his rebuttals.

The 2 goalpost shifts by DSM(5th pocket cleric & DPS breakpoint) pretty much confirms the fact that shamans are useless(they can't cheal/rez & you can hit the dps breakpoint without them. They really bring nothing to the table, this is why you don't really see enchanter/cleric/shaman trios, the enchanter/cleric knows they just don't need a shaman.

There's honestly no point in continuing to argue with him. You will not convince him otherwise, the majority of us know the truth.

You can look at cyxthryth's post history. It is all just literal nonsense. It is not anywhere close to a normal discussion. His first post in this thread was him saying he was angry at me for my opinion in another thread. It is clear he isn't here to have a discussion. All of his posts on this forum are just copy/pasted nonsense that he thinks is a mimicry of me. There is a reason why literally nobody engages with him, even the other posters who are against me.

Pocket clerics are not moving the goal posts, since nobody said that was a limitation. I am sorry you think simply talking about facts in Everquest is moving goalposts. That simply isn't true.

DPS Breakpoints have been my argument since page 2:

The Enchanters are providing the vast majority of the DPS via charmed pets. The Mage pet isn't doing that much hehe. Shamans can do fine DPS-wise.

Shaman pet has 2400 HP with FoS, and you can Torpor it. That is decently tanky. A Water pet only has 2500 HP hehe. It is providing security just fine, plus all the Shaman healing/slows/buffs.

I am not considering Epic Pets, because that is just really rare hehe. There are a LOT more Torpor Shamans than Epic Mages.

I didn't think I would have to explain how DPS worked on page 2, so I thought this would be a simple enough explanation. Clearly I was wrong.

To your point about trios, you typically see something like Shaman/Enchanter/Monk, there is no cleric at all. Shamans are generally preferred in Duos and Trios because their extra utility is more useful, and CH isn't needed for most content.

Shaman doesn't magically become less useful when you go from a trio to four people. That is the thing I find the most amazing. People will agree Shamans are great in duos and trios, but suddenly they offer nothing in four man groups. It is some great mental gymnastics to watch.

[Troxx]

It forced DSM to (once again) shift goalposts and arguments. He went from "Shamans do almost the same damage as mages" then realizing mages do way more cause of those logs and decided "More DPS is completely irrelevant unless….

More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)
-WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math.

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)
-WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math.

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.

This is such a bad take.

What really happened is I provided solid evidence of DPS numbers based on the data you provided, and then you got really angry and proceeded to troll/insult/meme for 200 posts, like a child.

Allishia's data is from an Epic Pet, while yours is not. And it still doesn't matter in the end due to how little time it saves per kill.

You haven't shown why you think any of my data is invalid, or will change in a group. You have made the claim my data is invalid, so you have to prove it. You won't though, because you know the data won't change.

[Troxx]

From page 3

Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.


So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.


I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

Shamans are a fan-fucking-tastic class. By heads and shoulders one of the strongest. They are god-mode. But … the scope of this thread was very specific. Given the constraints of the question … they are not the best choice unless your group mates are incompetent and you expect there to be oh shit moments a lot that would threaten a wipe. If we are making that assumption and that players are inattentive and suck, however, we shouldn’t have 2 enchanters in the group to start with.

Best “safety” group?

Cleric ench mage necro would be my vote. You’ve got 3 classes with CC. 3 tanks (2 summon and a charm). 2 rezzers. 3 classes that can give mana to the cleric (clarity, mod rods and twitches), 2 classes that can rez, 2 classes that can heal, both malo and tash, and slows. And you have plenty of dps to do anything. Shaman still doesn’t fit the bill as the most ideal.

But assuming players don’t suck it’s one of the following;

Clr/ench/ench/nec
Clr/ench/ench/ench
Clr/ench/ench/mage

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Clr/ench/ench/nec
Clr/ench/ench/ench
Clr/ench/ench/mage

Enchanter/Mage/Shaman/Necro would be better. I agree with OP's decision. You get everything you need, including hitting the DPS breakpoints. If you need the better res/CH, just level a pocket cleric. The only reason why you refuse to even consider Shaman in a group is because you have the desire to prove me wrong, not because you actually think these are the best combinations. Your 200+ posts of just memes/insults/trolling are proof enough of that.

[Crede]

More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)
-WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math.

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.

Great summary, and an accurate presentation of options available to anybody in this situation. Thanks for not muddying up the thread trying to suggest leveling a 5th alt either, since this thread is specifically about 4s.

I'd personally choose Cleric/Enchanter/Mage/Necro, which covers everything. It might not have the same amount of dps as multiple enc's, but I like that it gives you basically everything, while still being able to obliterate 99.9% of content. To me repeating classes is just boring.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Great summary, and an accurate presentation of options available to anybody in this situation. Thanks for not muddying up the thread trying to suggest leveling a 5th alt either, since this thread is specifically about 4s.

It's a poor summary, skewed by inaccurate ideas about how data and DPS works. Troxx just wants to "win", not have a discussion, and his 200+ troll/insult/meme posts are clear enough evidence.

I still find it amusing that talking about basic facts of the game is considered muddying the waters, when OP didn't specify you couldn't have a pocket cleric.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Troxx]

Yeah, naw … I’m sure anyone silently reading along but not posting who is capable of basic logic, reason, and who is capable of engaging in the teensiest bit of abstract thought would agree. Thing is … there isn’t anyone silently reading this dumpster fire. It’s just you, me, and over a dozen people who agree with me and think you would benefit from some ABA therapy for adults. Maybe a dating coach for adults with developmental disabilities.

Have you watched the Netflix series entitled “Love on the Spectrum”? I highly recommend for anyone. It is insightful, heart warming, and comically entertaining at times. By far one of the best docuseries I’ve ever watched.

Anyway … back to GIFs because online debate with DSM is pointless without a little humor.

https://c.tenor.com/aFn1H44NNIEAAAAM/whatever-you-say-whatever.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, naw … I’m sure anyone silently reading along but not posting who is capable of basic logic, reason, and who is capable of engaging in the teensiest bit of abstract thought would agree. Thing is … there isn’t anyone silently reading this dumpster fire. It’s just you, me, and over a dozen people who agree with me and think you would benefit from some ABA therapy for adults. Maybe a dating coach for adults with developmental disabilities.

Have you watched the Netflix series entitled “Love on the Spectrum”? I highly recommend for anyone. It is insightful, heart warming, and comically entertaining at times. By far one of the best docuseries I’ve ever watched.

Anyway … back to GIFs because online debate with DSM is pointless without a little humor.


Thanks for proving my point about you being a troll, yet again.

If you want to have a serious discussion, you need to prove why you think my evidence and math is invalid. Until then, please continue to prove my point that you are just trolling by posting more memes and insults.

[Troxx]

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

Lol still with the pocket cleric argument in a thread titled “best 4 man all caster/priest group” rather than “best 4 man all caster/priest group with logged out pocket alts for the stuff you really want in a group while still inviting a shaman”


https://c.tenor.com/FNdX62DeFQ0AAAAM/house-hugh-laurie.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol still with the pocket cleric argument in a thread titled “best 4 man all caster/priest group”


Indeed, it is not titled “best 4 man all caster/priest group without a pocket cleric”, and this is OP's first post:

And go

He also stated no goalposts were moved later on:

I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with. Best is whatever you personally think best means.

I am sorry that the only arguments you can make against me are nonsense, and avoid the discussion at hand.

[Troxx]

you need to prove why you think my evidence and math is invalid.

As soon as you present some evidence I would love to run the math with you.

We’re still waiting on you to join a fast moving, high dps group on your shaman and post some evidence. Ally even invited you to join her … you said you wouldn’t be online when she was yet magically found the time to post every 30 seconds here while she was doing it.

Please provide some evidence. We have hard data from myself and Ally … and napkin math and a few isolated SOLO fights from you.

Over a dozen of us “trolls” have literally been waiting 200 pages for you to do it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As soon as you present some evidence I would love to run the math with you.

We’re still waiting on you to join a fast moving, high dps group on your shaman and post some evidence. Ally even invited you to join her … you said you wouldn’t be online when she was yet magically found the time to post every 30 seconds here while she was doing it.

Please provide some evidence. We have hard data from myself and Ally … and napkin math and a few isolated SOLO fights from you.

That isn't how this works. You provided DPS data, and I provided DPS data.

You made a new claim saying my DPS data isn't valid, so it is up to you to prove it.

Asking me to prove a negative by proving my evidence is valid isn't how debates work. Otherwise I could just say the same thing about your data, and we would get nowhere.

I am amazed you don't understand how the burden of proof works.

Trolling/memeing/insulting for 200+ posts isn't proving your point at all, either.

I also find it amazing you don't realize people can make plans for different times of the day, in advance. I am not going to cancel plans I made days before Allishia's post during the same period Allishia was playing just to play Everquest.

[cyxthryth]

You can look at cyxthryth's post history.

Any poster can look at any other poster's post history on this thread/these forums if they wish hehe.

It is all just literal nonsense.

The problem is your post would seem to indicate that you believe that what I am posting is "all just literal nonsense", which is is objectively false, and I am not sure why you have repeatedly made this - objectively false - statement about my posts multiple times in this thread (as evidenced by the posts in it / your post history).

It is not anywhere close to a normal discussion.

I continue to to attempt to engage with you in a - normal, and civil - discussion, but you consistently/repeatedly ignore my posts & dodge the questions I pose directly to you hehe. That is not anywhere close to the behavoir of someone who is interested in participating in a normal discussion, and would seemingly be indicative that you cannot back up your position(s) with relevant, factual data, and therefore are unable to even make attempts to refute the irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute - that I have stated, nor able to answer the questions I have asked you (directly) without presumably betraying/exposing/revealing that you have been backed into a corner "arguing" from bad faith (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument). :)

His first post in this thread was him saying he was angry at me for my opinion in another thread.

Quite the contrary! I engaged this discussion by pointing out that you were - as you had done in the past - simply calling others and/or their posts "silly" in an apparent attempt to dismiss them, as you have seemingly attempted - and seemingly continue to attempt to do - with me and my posts in this thread hehe. :) This really isn't hard. I have linked my first post to you multiple times. I will post a full Quote of it here. Please feel free to point out anything I that I have stated in the below Quote that you believe is incorrect, and I am happy to civilly discuss with you hehe.

My first post on this thread which was posted on Page 74 in response to this Quote:

Nah, that's going to be Troxx and friends complaining because they don't have good data, and can't accept the truth or basic math.

The thread should have been over here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=638 , but the truth has thrown them into a rage they can't get out of, and must try and hide the truth with silly troll posts.

was as follows:

"Silly troll posts" huh? I see where this is going. ;)

You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.
Your concession in silence was accepted.

I see you haven't quite given up on this current thread just yet though. *chuckle* Take as much time as you need. You will certainly move on to hyper-focus on another thread/topic in which you'll continue to demonstrate your seemingly-apparent autism to all neurotypicals who encounter your posts.
I can only speak for myself, but your inevitable concession in silence for this thread is accepted in advance. :)

It is clear he isn't here to have a discussion.]

You have provided zero evidence that it is clear that I am not here to have a discussion. In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have made my intention to continue engaging in a civil discussion with you known, via multiple (direct) posts/replies to your posts.

Do you intend to imply that you believe you are making it "more clear" that you are here to have a discussion (than me) by outright ignoring my posts hehe? :)

All of his posts on this forum are just copy/pasted nonsense that he thinks is a mimicry of me.

It is objectively false that all of my posts on this forum are just copy/pasted nonsense that I think is a mimicry of you. The problem is that your post suggests that you believe that you stating that my posts "are just copy/pasted nonsense" means that they truly/factually are "just copy/pasted nonsense", when they are - factually/objectively - not.

Now, it certainly may be your opinion that that my posts "are just copy/pasted nonsense" - but that would simply be just that: your opinion hehe. :)

There is a reason why literally nobody engages with him, even the other posters who are against me.

It is false that literally nobody (including yourself) has engaged with me, so I am not sure why you seemingly are making that - again, false (and unsubstantiated) - claim hehe. :)

Pocket clerics are not moving the goal posts, since nobody said that was a limitation.

The problem is your post would seem to betray that you do not understand - or do fully understand, and are for some reason pretending that you do not understand - that adding a 5th "pocket" character to your "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) is an objective example of you moving goalposts.

The issue might be that you - seemingly - believe that you simply claiming "nobody said that was a limitation" somehow negates the fact that the context of this discussion is/was/always has been - as the title of this thread irrefutably proves - specifically/explicitly pertaining to a "4 person all caster/priest group", and therefore by attempting to bring a 5th "pocket" character into your "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) - you objectively moved the goalposts.

I am sorry you think simply talking about facts in Everquest is moving goalposts. That simply isn't true.

I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others think "talking about facts is moving goalposts" or that you making this - wholly irrelevant - apology has any bearing on the facts, which simply will not change based on what you think, nor how you feel hehe. :)

Clearly I was wrong.

Hehe. :)

To your point about trios, you typically see something like Shaman/Enchanter/Monk, there is no cleric at all.

The problem with your post is that it would seem to indicate/reveal/betray/expose that you (seemingly) believe that you are aware of what others "typically see", as evidenced by your Quoted post above. You have provided zero evidence to support this claim, thus it is an unsubstantiated (and probably false) claim.

Shamans are generally preferred in Duos and Trios because their extra utility is more useful, and CH isn't needed for most content.

The problem with your post is that it would seem to indicate/reveal/betray/expose that you (seemingly) believe that you are aware of what is "generally preferred". You have provided zero evidence to support this claim, thus it is an unsubstantiated (and probably false) claim.

In this thread you have both implied and outright stated that you have a preference for "safety", yet in what you are (apparently) claiming is the "generally preferred Duo/Trio", the healing class is a Shaman. The irrefutable fact of the matter - which you cannot refute - is that a Shaman simply has no ability to Rez a fallen groupmate. I will remind you again - attempting to account for this flaw/inability/not-safe aspect of the Shaman class, you have attmepted to move goalposts by suggesting a 4-person group can have a 5th "pocket" character assist them. Speaking strictly mathematically, 4 =/= 5, so I am not sure why you would attempt to bring this 5th person into the equation, nor why you believe doing so is not an example of you moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)


Shaman doesn't magically become less useful when you go from a trio to four people. That is the thing I find the most amazing. People will agree Shamans are great in duos and trios, but suddenly they offer nothing in four man groups. It is some great mental gymnastics to watch.

Your post would seem to indicate/reveal/betray/expose a lack of understanding of diminishing returns, which is interesting, as your previous posts seemingly indicated you were aware of such when it pertained to DPS, and - perhaps more specifically/relevantly - when you thought it favored your "argument(s)".

[Troxx]

As soon as you present some evidence I would love to run the math with you.

We’re still waiting on you to join a fast moving, high dps group on your shaman and post some evidence.

We’ve been waiting over 200 pages. Why not just do it. If your “math” is correct you will perform fantastically. If your shaman + pet is as “good enough” as you say it is I promise I will concede. Why would I include a mage who basically only slings dps when I could pick a shaman that does just as much dps and can also malo? I would much rather have an equivalent dps class that can also blast heal, buff, root, torpor or otherwise do crap a mage cannot to save a group in the theoretical emergency that probably will never happen … if said class can actually lay down the heat when the situation that will never happen … isn’t happening.

DPS heat-o-meter of the classes in question:

Ench: RED glowing HOT
MAGE: Hot but not glowing
Necro: a comfortably hot shower unless charming their way to “red hot” in the right camp
Shaman: the Totinos pizza rolls you microwaved 10 minutes ago but forgot about

Unlike you my mind is wide open to being changed. If you want that to happen, join a fast paced high dps group and strut your stuff. Post the parses. Name the camp. Who else was in the group with you. Remember, your competition averages 100-120 dps lazily lobbing nukes and sending in a beefy tank/dps pet.

What are you scared of? It will take a lot less time and effort than what you’re already investing in this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not scared at all. The data still supports my view. I am simply not going to agree with your incorrect premise that my data is invalid, simply because you don't like my data lol.

I have an open mind, and I would love to be proven wrong. But simply claiming you are right because you don't like my data isn't proving anything wrong. It is just childish.

As I said before:

That isn't how this works. You provided DPS data, and I provided DPS data.

You made a new claim saying my DPS data isn't valid, so it is up to you to prove it.

Asking me to prove a negative by proving my evidence is valid isn't how debates work. Otherwise I could just say the same thing about your data, and we would get nowhere.

I am amazed you don't understand how the burden of proof works.

Trolling/memeing/insulting for 200+ posts isn't proving your point at all, either.

I also find it amazing you don't realize people can make plans for different times of the day, in advance. I am not going to cancel plans I made days before Allishia's post during the same period Allishia was playing just to play Everquest.

[Troxx]

I am not scared at all. The data still supports my view. :

There isn’t any data. You haven’t provided it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There isn’t any data. You haven’t provided it.

Incorrect. I have provided plenty of data.

You do know I could just say "you haven't provided data", and we would be in the same spot, right?

Covering your ears, closing your eyes, and yelling at the top of your lungs doesn't make my data disappear lol.

That isn't how this works. You provided DPS data, and I provided DPS data.

You made a new claim saying my DPS data isn't valid, so it is up to you to prove it.

Asking me to prove a negative by proving my evidence is valid isn't how debates work. Otherwise I could just say the same thing about your data, and we would get nowhere.

I am amazed you don't understand how the burden of proof works.

Trolling/memeing/insulting for 200+ posts isn't proving your point at all, either.

I also find it amazing you don't realize people can make plans for different times of the day, in advance. I am not going to cancel plans I made days before Allishia's post during the same period Allishia was playing just to play Everquest.

[Troxx]

The data of you soloing mobs and not being in a group? That data? The irrelevant stuff that is not any representation of what you could do when grouped up with 2 charmed, hasted, quadding pets competing for the kill shot?

Silly fella. You’d be lucky if you could land more than one ice strike along with your pet that does 16-18 dps AFTER you spend 20 minute making attempts at summoning one that hits for 52.

You still haven’t answered the biggest question. If you are so confident in your math/data, why not prove it in a real-world (Norrath world) environment? Join a fast moving high dps group and show us what you can do.

I promise I’ll concede if you can pull it off. Not single fights mind you. Join that group and stay there for 2 hours. Parse all the fights including the ones where you spend your time canni/torporing your mana back and not nuking.

I would honestly be impressed if, sustained over time in said group, you could break even with my 60 unfocused water pet by itself.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The data of you soloing mobs and not being in a group? That data? The irrelevant stuff that is not any representation of what you could do when grouped up with 2 charmed, hasted, quadding pets competing for the kill shot?

Silly fella. You’d be lucky if you could land more than one ice strike along with your pet that does 16-18 dps AFTER you spend 20 minute making attempts at summoning one that hits for 52.

This is a claim that is up to you to prove. It is pretty amazing that you think a spell that has a 7 second cast time cannot be cast even once in a fight that lasts 36 seconds or more. The lack of math skills here is pretty astounding.

[Troxx]

Well then do it man.

If you’re as much dps as you think you are they won’t live 36 seconds. 2 charm pets at 120dps (as high as 140s if you’re balling Krups) is 8640 damage in 36 seconds. With krups that’s 10,080 damage in 36 seconds. Add in anyone else at or around 100 dps and 36 seconds would be 11-13k dmg.

In crypt/emp most mobs have between 6k and 8200hp. That’s ~25 seconds a kill from just enchanter pets … before your own competing damage is factored in. If your own dps is as good as you think it is; fights will be about 15-20 seconds. Time for a nuke. 2 if you’re lucky and the bored enchanters aren’t also nuking.

For a mage? More than enough time to slap their 55-65dps pet on the mob and lazily lob 1-2 bombs a fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well then do it man.

Already did it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E

It is up to you to prove these videos are somehow faked, or there is no possible way this could translate over to a group situation.

This evidence is superior to your screenshot of parser data, and Allishia's data is superior to yours since it is raw log data.

[Troxx]

Those are videos of you soloing mobs.

Funny at the end of fight video 2 you are half mana and half health though … and it took you 3 minutes and 30+ seconds to finish the fight (38dps is not impressive)

[cyxthryth]

I am not scared at all. The data still supports my view.

Due to your - objectively irrefutable - movement of goal posts, it is not apparent what view you are attempting to argue for at any given time, so for the sake of the civil discussion please confirm your current view & what relevant, factual data you believe, specifically/particularly, supports said view.

I am simply not going to agree with your incorrect premise that my data is invalid, simply because you don't like my data lol.

The problem is your post would seem to indicate that you believe that the data/evidence you have provided - which was specifically & explicitly not data of your Shaman's performance in a 4 person all caster/priest group - is somehow/for some reason relevant to this discussion - which, again, is specifically & explicitly about a "4 person all caster/priest group" - and therefore valid.

The data/evidence you have provided is irrelevant, this is why it is not valid nor meaningful to this discussion. Again, this has already been explained to you multiple times by multiple people, so I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you are still unaware of this irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute.


I have an open mind, and I would love to be proven wrong.

Your seeming reluctance to even attempt to engage in a civil discussion with me - in addition to all the rest of the evidence, which is visible to all in this thread - is evidence that suggests the contrary: that being you do not have an open mind, and would not love to be proven wrong. I would certainly love to be proven wrong about this, but thus far you have apparently simply chosen to ignore my posts, dodge my questions, and make unsubstantiated - and false - claims about my posts in your replies to others hehe. :)

But simply claiming you are right because you don't like my data isn't proving anything wrong. It is just childish.

Simply ignoring facts and dodging questions isn't proving yourself correct, nor others wrong. Calling others childish (or silly, or trolling) is not proving yourself correct, nor others wrong - and is indicative that you

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Those are videos of you soloing mobs.

You still need to prove that doesn't translate to a group. You have yet to do so lol.

Here, let me do the same thing you are doing: "You still haven't proven your screenshots aren't photoshopped".

Also, I noticed you did some "napkin math". Isn't that illegal in your world?

I have shown DPS breakpoints on mobs with 8000 HP many times.

Based on your data, 2x Krup Knights would do around 170 DPS.

A Mage with an Epic Pet is doing around 120 DPS with pet and nuking once per fight due to mana constraints.

A Shaman is doing around 55 DPS with pet and nuking twice per fight, they can afford to do so via Torpor.

The difference in time between 290 DPS and 225 DPS is 27.5 seconds vs. 35.5 seconds. Your "napkin math" is seriously off.

[Ripqozko]

This is a good thread for reason to choose Riot instead of Vanquish, hope that helps.

[Troxx]

Based on your data, 2x Krup Knights would do around 170 DPS.

Can we get an enchanter in here to school this fool? You think a Krup charmed hasted and torched is 70dps? Lol a Jin knight (lowest frog in seb) hasted and torched is a good solid 90-100 float depending on fight. A bok is 110-120. A full on murder-mode Krup (one of them) is going to crank above 140. I have seen isolated fights pushing closer to 170 than 160 (not representative of average but luck happens).

You don’t parse much do you. You are apparently clueless.

When I duo with ench on my cleric the “safe pet” (bok) will drop an 8k mob in about a minute (+/- a tick)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can we get an enchanter in here to school this fool? You think a Krup charmed hasted and torched is 70dps? Lol a Jin knight (lowest frog in seb) hasted and torched is a good solid 90-100 float depending on fight. A bok is 110-120. A full on murder-mode Krup (one of them) is going to crank above 140.

You don’t parse much do you. You are apparently clueless.

I would love to get some raw DPS data from Enchanters. I am literally just using your own data. It is hilarious you keep blaming me for your own data.

But the Enchanter pets doing more DPS hurts your argument further lol.

If the Enchanters are doing 220 DPS with pets, the math looks like this:

Your group is doing roughly 340 DPS with the Epic Mage, and 275 DPS with the Shaman.

The difference in time is 23.5 seconds vs. 29 seconds. The time difference drops to 5.5 seconds.

DPS has diminishing returns on kill speed the more you stack.

[Troxx]

Your group is doing roughly 340 DPS with the Mage, and 275 DPS with the Shaman.

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

https://c.tenor.com/WJIEOHsnJmkAAAAS/obama-mic-drop.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

-120 dps is more than double 55 dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

Again, this is a nonsense argument.

The Mage can only DPS. If your group only needs DPS during a specific encounter, your Shaman can just do DPS.

The benefit to a Shaman is the Shaman can switch out of DPS mode at any time. Your Mage is stuck in DPS mode forever, and can't help the party when an emergency occurs.

DPS has diminishing returns, so 65 DPS means less if your group's DPS is already really high.