Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[PlsNoBan]

More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)
-WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math.

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.

This is a fantastic and accurate summation of the events of this thread so far. Also ROFL at DSM saying the question doesn't specifically say you can't have a pocket cleric. It also doesn't say you can't have an entire raid out of group assisting you. Is that the next goalpost moving argument? How about hacking the game to boost shaman DPS? The question doesn't specifically say you can't

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

You still need to prove that doesn't translate to a group. You have yet to do so lol.

The problem is that your post would seem to imply that you have forgotten - or are for some reason attempting to pretend that you have forgotten - that you have already admitted in this very thread the irrefutable fact that being in a group introduces variables which affect DPS (in your words "skew data") hehe. This irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - is the reason that the data you captured solo (with none of the variables that groupmates would introduce), is irrelevant to this discussion, that is specifically/explicitly about the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" hehe. Remember, speaking strictly mathematically, 4=/=5.

I will remind you of your own admission of your knowledge of these variables, via your own posts (which are self-evident and viewable by all):

What you don't understand is once you are in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

The above Quotes prove that your - laughable - claim that "You still need to prove that doesn't translate to a group. You have yet to do so lol." is objectively false hehe. :)

A Shaman is doing around 55 DPS with pet and nuking twice per fight, they can afford to do so via Torpor.

You have provided zero evidence that supports your claim that "A Shaman is doing around 55 DPS with pet and nuking twice per fight, they can afford to do so via Torpor." - thus it is an unsubstantiated (and probably false) claim hehe. :)

This really isn't hard. :)

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[PlsNoBan]

Ooh we're back to spamming copy pasted posts full of bullshit. Excellent strategy. I'm sure it'll be very convincing for all the silent readers.

[cyxthryth]

Also ROFL at DSM saying the question doesn't specifically say you can't have a pocket cleric. It also doesn't say you can't have an entire raid out of group assisting you. Is that the next goalpost moving argument? How about hacking the game to boost shaman DPS? The question doesn't specifically say you can't

Hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ooh we're back to spamming copy pasted posts full of bullshit. Excellent strategy. I'm sure it'll be very convincing for all the silent readers.

Yup. Copy/pasting the facts that haven't been disproven so they don't get drowned out by trolls is superior to your strategy of trolling.

Remember when you admitted to trolling?

Everyone (including you) has trolled at various points in this thread. Troll posts are not the majority of my posts. I have zero issue admitting when I'm doing so. Unlike some of us :rolleyes:

[Troxx]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

https://c.tenor.com/WJIEOHsnJmkAAAAS/obama-mic-drop.gif


Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.


Nope.

Again, this is a nonsense argument.

The Mage can only DPS. If your group only needs DPS during a specific encounter, your Shaman can just do DPS.

The benefit to a Shaman is the Shaman can switch out of DPS mode at any time. Your Mage is stuck in DPS mode forever, and can't help the party when an emergency occurs.

DPS has diminishing returns, so 65 DPS means less if your group's DPS is already really high.

I would love to get some raw DPS data from Enchanters. I am literally just using your own data. It is hilarious you keep blaming me for your own data.

But the Enchanter pets doing more DPS hurts your argument further lol.

If the Enchanters are doing 220 DPS with pets, the math looks like this:

Your group is doing roughly 340 DPS with the Epic Mage, and 275 DPS with the Shaman.

The difference in time is 23.5 seconds vs. 29 seconds. The time difference drops to 5.5 seconds.

DPS has diminishing returns on kill speed the more you stack.

[Troxx]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

https://c.tenor.com/WJIEOHsnJmkAAAAS/obama-mic-drop.gif


Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your data. Your math. Not mine.

The group doesn’t need anything else from you.

Glad we agree.

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.


Nope. I am sorry you keep thinking you are randomly correct for no reason.

Again, this is a nonsense argument.

The Mage can only DPS. If your group only needs DPS during a specific encounter, your Shaman can just do DPS.

The benefit to a Shaman is the Shaman can switch out of DPS mode at any time. Your Mage is stuck in DPS mode forever, and can't help the party when an emergency occurs.

DPS has diminishing returns, so 65 DPS means less if your group's DPS is already really high.

I would love to get some raw DPS data from Enchanters. I am literally just using your own data. It is hilarious you keep blaming me for your own data.

But the Enchanter pets doing more DPS hurts your argument further lol.

If the Enchanters are doing 220 DPS with pets, the math looks like this:

Your group is doing roughly 340 DPS with the Epic Mage, and 275 DPS with the Shaman.

The difference in time is 23.5 seconds vs. 29 seconds. The time difference drops to 5.5 seconds.

DPS has diminishing returns on kill speed the more you stack.

[cyxthryth]

the facts that haven't been disproven

Are you referring to (some or all of) the many irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute - that I have consistently posted while responding directly to you/to your posts, which you have ignored?

If not, please clarify which facts you are referring to so that we may quantify them hehe. :)

Remember when you admitted to trolling?

I have admitted to zero trolling. Quite the contrary! In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - I have challenged you calling me a troll and have asked you to provide proof/evidence of my "trolling". You have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - any evidence that supports your claim, hence your claim is unsubstantiated - and false.

Your post would seem to indicate that you believe that others "want to shut you up"? Oh quite the contrary! I have been attempting to continue having a civil discussion with you, but you have repeatedly ignored my posts and dodged my questions hehe. :)

Let's continue our civil discussion!

[Troxx]

Yeah we definitely making it to page 300.

https://c.tenor.com/uRUAmhoSVIgAAAAM/dance-lol.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah we definitely making it to page 300.

https://c.tenor.com/uRUAmhoSVIgAAAAM/dance-lol.gif

Thanks for continuing to prove my point about you being a troll.

You also start trolling when you know you can't counter my argument.

[Troxx]

Can we get an enchanter in here to school this fool? You think a Krup charmed hasted and torched is 70dps? Lol a Jin knight (lowest frog in seb) hasted and torched is a good solid 90-100 float depending on fight. A bok is 110-120. A full on murder-mode Krup (one of them) is going to crank above 140. I have seen isolated fights pushing closer to 170 than 160 (not representative of average but luck happens).

You don’t parse much do you. You are apparently clueless.

When I duo with ench on my cleric the “safe pet” (bok) will drop an 8k mob in about a minute (+/- a tick)

I don’t want this to get lost by the way. I had to point out to DSM just how much enchanter pets do hasted and torched.

[PlsNoBan]

Yup. Copy/pasting the facts that haven't been disproven so they don't get drowned out by trolls is superior to your strategy of trolling.

Remember when you admitted to trolling?

Admitting to making a few troll posts =/= admitting to being a troll or every post I make is a troll. I know you don't really have any good arguments in general but this is a really bad one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t want this to get lost by the way. I had to point out to DSM just how much enchanter pets do hasted and torched.

Please, don't let it get lost. It just strengthens my argument, because DPS has diminishing returns as you stack more. The more DPS an Enchanter does, the less useful the Mage is.

You also forget that the Enchanter pet DPS data I am using is directly from you, so it is your own data you are complaining about.

Admitting to making a few troll posts =/= admitting to being a troll or every post I make is a troll. I know you don't really have any good arguments in general but this is a really bad one.

300+ posts that are just memes/insults/trolls is not "a few", you can't hide your post history lol. There is no way to tell when you are being serious after this many troll posts and how many times you have admitted to trolling. It is sad over half of your entire post history on these forums is just insults and memes in this thread.

[cyxthryth]

Please, don't let it get lost It just strengthens my argument, because DPS has diminishing returns as you stack more.

I am not sure why your post seems to indicate that you think you are making a point or refuting a fact by stating "DPS has diminishing returns as you stack more." hehe. :)

What point do you think you are making, or what fact do you think you are refuting?

The more DPS an Enchanter does, the less useful the Mage is.

I am not sure why your post seems to indicate that you think you are making a point or refuting a fact by stating "The more DPS an Enchanter does, the less useful the Mage is." hehe. :)

What point do you think you are making, or what fact do you think you are refuting?

You also forget that the DPS data is directly from you, so it is your own data you are complaining about.

I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you believe that you have knowledge of others' memories. The irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - is that you do not know what others remember or have forgotten as you do not have access to their memories. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

300+ posts that are just memes/insults/trolls

*Citation Needed*

This number is hilariously too high. It's nowhere near that many. The vast majority of my posts are calling out your ridiculous bullshit. You may think that's trolling but it's just logic and common sense prevailing over the insane ramblings of a lunatic with no idea how this game works.

[cyxthryth]

you can't hide your post history lol

You can hide from my posts and my direct questions posed to you hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

*Citation Needed*

This number is hilariously too high. It's nowhere near that many. The vast majority of my posts are calling out your ridiculous bullshit. You may think that's trolling but it's just logic and common sense prevailing over the insane ramblings of a lunatic with no idea how this game works.

It's not hilariously high at all. Just go back and check. It is in plain sight. You have hundreds of posts that are just memes, insults, and trolls, with no relevance to the discussion.

You have been trying to do better very recently since I have been calling you out on it. So I am glad I improved your posting. Civilizing PlsNoBan is at least one good thing to come out of this thread.

[cyxthryth]

Just go back and check. It is in plain sight.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)

[Troxx]

I’ll admit it. I told DSM about 200 pages ago I would take him seriously when he actually went out and gathered him some actual data with him in an actual group. Since then I have probably contributed a healthy 80:20 mix of trolling his eclectic ramble of nonsense vs actual active engagement in the false hope he will have an epiphany.

It has been enjoyable.

We celebrated page 100 with many good times and laughter

We rolled our eyes and got slightly nauseated with page 200

Maybe a party at 300?

https://c.tenor.com/1YT3z5FDE7gAAAAM/rally-300.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[Troxx]

-120 mage dps is more than double 55 shaman dps.
-In order to do that dps you are only casting dps and not doing any utility.
-the group didn’t need your utility to begin with.

So the mage is more twice as good as the shaman.

Awesome, glad we can agree.

https://c.tenor.com/WJIEOHsnJmkAAAAS/obama-mic-drop.gif

https://c.tenor.com/13nqCZN1pb4AAAAC/minion-king.gif

[Crede]

I am not sure why your post seems to indicate that you think you are making a point or refuting a fact by stating "DPS has diminishing returns as you stack more." hehe. :)

What point do you think you are making, or what fact do you think you are refuting?


There is no point, hehe. Diminishing returns are still returns, vs the 0 returns you get from wasted utility.

This is just another goalpost shift to prove shaman wasted utility > mage dps.

At this point, nobody takes DSM seriously. He's just a data troll vs a meme troll.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is no point, hehe. Diminishing returns are still returns, vs the 0 returns you get from wasted utility.

This is just another goalpost shift to prove shaman wasted utility > mage dps.

When I can prove you aren't getting more kills per hour via DPS, that is a factual gain of nothing with DPS.

I know you don't think having multiple healers, a dedicated slower, malo support, etc. doesn't help your group in various situations. You are just being silly to try and claim there is no benefit from bringing a Shaman.

Something (utility) > nothing (DPS that grants you no additional kills per hour).

This discussion has long since shifted from thinking about the best group composition to try and think about every way you could exclude a Shaman just to prove me wrong. It is very silly, especially since most people here would agree Shamans are very strong in duo/trios. But magically that benefit disappears when 1 more person joins the group. It is amusing to watch the mental gymnastics at play.

[Troxx]

I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.

Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in?

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

So yeah. Mages do more than twice the damage of shamans. The group doesn’t need the shaman utility or safety net.

So the mage is more than twice as desirable as the shaman.

Glad DSM and I finally agree!

[cyxthryth]

When I can prove you aren't getting more kills per hour via DPS, that is a factual gain of nothing with DPS.

You have provided zero evidence that "you aren't getting more kills per hour via DPS", so I am not not sure why your post seems to indicate that you believe stating "When I can prove you aren't getting more kills per hour via DPS, that is a factual gain of nothing with DPS" has some relevance or bearing on this discussion.

Please explain what you mean by "a factual gain of nothing with DPS"?

Do you deny that more DPS = mobs dying faster than they would vs less DPS?

This really isn't hard hehe. :)


I know you don't think having multiple healers, a dedicated slower, malo support, etc. doesn't help your group in various situations. You are just being silly to try and claim there is no benefit from bringing a Shaman.

The problem is your post would seem to indicate that you believe there is worthwhile/relevant benefit to mentioning "slower, malo support, etc.", when you have already provided the below irrefutable evidence that you are aware of the irrefutable fact (which you cannot refute) that much of what a Shaman offers is already (objectively) covered by a group consisting of Enc/Enc/Cleric and is not even applicable to the vast majority of mobs the group is fighting hehe. :) I will remind you with a Quote of your own post, which is visible to all:

You wouldn't cast Malo/Slow on mobs dying in 30 seconds, so I am not sure why you are even talking about that.

Hehe. :)

Another problem is that your post seems to imply that you believe that others are "just being silly to try and claim that there is no benefit from bringing a Shaman", but you have provided zero evidence to support this claim, thus it is an unsubstantiated (and probably false) claim. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.

Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in?

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

Again, it is a silly argument to say groups never have problems, even with competent players. Even the best players make mistakes, have lag, etc.

You literally have to make the "players play perfectly" argument to even attempt to show a Shaman isn't necessary. Under this argument, Mage loses because 4x Enchanters would offer more DPS if you assume DPS > everything when playing perfectly. Again, this is a silly argument, and I have no idea why it is being made.

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

There are plenty of situations where safety is superior to a 2 second increase in kill speed. Camps can be taken if you wipe, so why risk it for 0 gains via DPS?

[PlsNoBan]

I will say this: emergencies when they do arise are the responsibility of everyone in the group. 3 players in this theoretical group already have massive (the best) capabilities to deal with these circumstances: enchanter x2 and cleric for reasons that should be OBVIOUS.

Can a mage help out? Yep. It’s called using your pet to tank and lock down crap and/or unloading your mana bar. In a full, reckless/feckless burn a mage can crank out around 200dps (+/-) a bit depending on resists to get shit dead. If the shit is dead, no emergency. Or how about dash out of range and CoTH the cleric to wipe aggro and then take one for the team (suicide) so the group can hard reboot. Or heck even quick camp the inevitable wipe and CoTH the cleric back to a safe spot to rez in?

None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

So yeah. Mages do more than twice the damage of shamans. The group doesn’t need the shaman utility or safety net.

So the mage is more than twice as desirable as the shaman.

Glad DSM and I finally agree!

I feel like there's a strong chance DSM has never actually been in a group with 2 good encs and a good cleric before. He absolutely refuses to believe they won't constantly be in danger or making mistakes that only a shaman can correct for some reason. If that's been his only experience then you can't really fault him for feeling like his utility/heals matter. I think the rest of us are painfully aware of how unneeded shaman utility/heals are in a group like this consisting of good players. He keeps trying to belittle how much extra benefit you get from more DPS but the problem is with the right players in this group comp you get literally 0 benefit from the utility and heals he provides. They simply don't need it. Any amount of DPS is better and it doesn't matter how many extra kills you do or don't get.

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

Question isn't whats the most common group for x camp. This isn't a class popularity contest. You can do fungi camp with a wide variety of sub-optimal groups. It's not THAT hard of a camp in the first place. The question AGAIN is what is the BEST group of casters/priests overall. You seem to forget what the actual question is and steer off into the weeds very frequently.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I feel like there's a strong chance DSM has never actually been in a group with 2 good encs and a good cleric before. He absolutely refuses to believe they won't constantly be in danger or making mistakes that only a shaman can correct for some reason. If that's been his only experience then you can't really fault him for feeling like his utility/heals matter. I think the rest of us are painfully aware of how unneeded shaman utility/heals are in a group like this consisting of good players. He keeps trying to belittle how much extra benefit you get from more DPS but the problem is with the right players in this group comp you get literally 0 benefit from the utility and heals he provides. They simply don't need it. Any amount of DPS is better and it doesn't matter how many extra kills you do or don't get.

I have. The only thing I can assume is people don't really play the game, because DPS increases don't help the party after a certain point. They also assume everybody plays perfect lol.

Whether they know it or not, DPS breakpoints are why most people prefer to play with 3-4 group members rather than 6. You are getting less XP with 6 members, and the DPS increase isn't getting you more kills per hour. It is a lose/lose situation to try and get more DPS via more group members after 3-4 players.

[PlsNoBan]

I have

Kinda doubt it. Your definition of good and my definition are different.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Kinda doubt it. Your definition of good and my definition are different.

It is true that our definitions are different. You think "good" is "perfect play". I say that is nonsense.

I have seen plenty of highly experienced players make mistakes.


Question isn't whats the most common group for x camp. This isn't a class popularity contest. You can do fungi camp with a wide variety of sub-optimal groups. It's not THAT hard of a camp in the first place. The question AGAIN is what is the BEST group of casters/priests overall. You seem to forget what the actual question is and steer off into the weeds very frequently.

Not at all. The problem is you assume an "optimal" group is just whatever group can output the highest DPS, which is incorrect due to diminishing returns. The most effective group for a high value item camp like Fungi King is a group with enough DPS to maximize kills per hour, and minimize the chances of wiping, so you can secure the maximum possible number of kills per play session.

[Troxx]

Again, it is a silly argument to say groups never have problems, even with competent players. Even the best players make mistakes, have lag, etc.

Where did I say groups don’t have problems. This group already has 2 inevitable problems that are destined to repeat … the charms WILL break. What I did say is that this group already has 3 members of the 2 best classes to deal with problems. They don’t need anything your shaman has to offer.

Even if the cleric flat out goes linkdead and has to log back in, 2 enchanters should be able to handle their pets, the mob they are fighting, and keep any adds locked down until the cleric is back in.

Have you never played with a good enchanter? Imagine having 2 of them …

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Where did I say groups don’t have problems. This group already has 2 inevitable problems that are destined to repeat … the charms WILL break. What I did say is that this group already has 3 members of the 2 best classes to deal with problems. They don’t need anything your shaman has to offer.

Even if the cleric flat out goes linkdead and has to log back in, 2 enchanters should be able to handle their pets, the mob they are fighting, and keep any adds locked down until the cleric is back in.

Have you never played with a good enchanter? Imagine having 2 of them …

You said groups don't have problems right here:


None of this should ever happen (ever) in a group of competent players.

You are contradicting yourself by trying to walk this thin line of saying groups are competent enough to never wipe (don't have problems), but actually do have some problems, but can handle emergencies equally well regardless of their groups composition (level of utility). It's a very shaky argument.

Again, if this magical unicorn of a group exists, they would just run 4x Enchanters and a pocket cleric due to how absolutely pro they are, and how much they believe DPS matters above all else.

[cyxthryth]

You literally have to make the "players play perfectly" argument to even attempt to show a Shaman isn't necessary.

In irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - you yourself attempted to provide/present raw math as realistic expectations of class performances; you literally tried to remove ANY players from the equation and claimed that "data" was somehow relevant to or had bearing upon this discussion hehe. :)

Under this argument. Again, this is a silly argument, and I have no idea why it is being made.

Then you may wish to stop "arguing" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) and start having a civil discussion hehe. :)

The most common group I had at Fungi King was Monk/Enchanter/Shaman and sometimes a Cleric, either a player or a pocket Cleric.

I am not sure what point you believe you are making or what fact you think you are refuting here, and I am not sure why you have brought up that 5th/"pocket" PLAYER or character yet again hehe. :)

There are plenty of situations where safety is superior to a 2 second increase in kill speed. Camps can be taken if you wipe, so why risk it for 0 gains via DPS?

And if your only healer in a Duo or Trio is a Shaman, you have zero rez available unless you once again move goalposts to allow for a "pocket" Cleric hehe. :)

[Troxx]

300 here we come!

https://c.tenor.com/EyutKsgP6qAAAAAC/aaa-spartan.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

300 here we come!

Yup, you go back to trolling when you have been proven wrong, yet again.

[Toxigen]

Enchanter/Mage/Shaman/Necro would be better.

No, it wouldn't.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, it wouldn't.

Please explain.

[Toxigen]

Nah. Not gonna compete with your 940 posts of shit.

[cyxthryth]

Yup, you go back to trolling when you have been proven wrong, yet again.

Nope. Not me! I am just attempting to engage in a civil discussion with you, and I have not been proven wrong whatsoever (much less "yet again") hehe. :)

I am eagerly awaiting any reply from you or your (seeming/apparent) supporters Kich867 or eqravenprince, both of whom have seemingly taken up corners adjacent to yours to silently concede in, or are perhaps making better-written/more well-thought-out posts to attempt to defend you and/or your position (whatever that is...) in this civil discussion hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah. Not gonna compete with your 940 posts of shit.

Ok. You are perfectly fine to have your opinion. There is no problem with this.

But it will stay as just that, an opinion, until you can provide support for it.

[cyxthryth]

It is true that our definitions are different. You think "good" is "perfect play". I say that is nonsense.

The problem is you seemingly call lots of things "nonsense" (or silly, or trolling), including irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute - or questions that are posed directly to you which you (seemingly) do not feel fit the criteria for questions that you can answer without revealing/betraying/exposing that you are "arguing" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) from bad faith hehe. :)

I have seen plenty of highly experienced players make mistakes.

I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting by proclaiming that you have seen plenty of highly experienced players make mistakes. You have also provided zero evidence to support that the players you are referring to in the above Quote are highly experienced. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[cyxthryth]

Ok. You are perfectly fine to have your opinion. There is no problem with this.

But it will stay as just that, an opinion, until you can provide support for it.

What (factual, relevant) evidence do you believe you have provided in this thread which demonstrates what your Shaman is capable of doing in a high level, fast-paced killing DPS group? This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[cyxthryth]

Please explain.

What explanation do you require? I would be happy to provide it for you hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

It is true that our definitions are different. You think "good" is "perfect play"

2 enchanters and a cleric don't need to play anywhere near perfectly to never wipe. Not even fucking close. There's LOTS of room for error without any assistance from a shaman or anyone else. 2 encs could keep 12 mobs mezzed in camp for 30 minutes while the cleric takes a shit and rubs one out if they have to. I leveled a enc/enc duo with a friend of mine with no healer whatsoever and I think we died like twice? The entire time we leveled together. The cleric is the safety net for when shit goes south on rare occasion and to allow the enchanters to keep the same pet all day long without having to break and blur heal it back up or charm a new pet. Why the fuck do you think they need your torpor exactly?

[Troxx]

Anyone else find it hilarious that DSM won’t directly talk to Cyxthryth?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Anyone else find it hilarious that DSM won’t directly talk to Cyxthryth?

No, because nobody else has been talking to him.

That is clear evidence everybody is avoiding his nonsense lol. Not even his own side likes him.

You will probably start engaging with him now just to try and disprove this point, but the post history is clear. The VAST majority of his posts have been ignored by every single poster in this thread.

You can see in the beginning I tried to engage with him, but it quickly became apparent he wasn't interested in doing anything other than trolling.

Honestly his posting hurts your side, because it just increases the number of people trolling me. He is helping me immensely by consistently trolling for over 200 posts.

[Kirdan]

I feel like this thread is responsible for the forums getting nuked.

[cyxthryth]

Anyone else find it hilarious that DSM won’t directly talk to Cyxthryth?

I meant to thank Crede earlier for bringing this up, thank you both for the support!

I too am not sure why DSM is - seemingly - so unable or unwilling to engage with me a in a simple civil discussion. All he would have to do is support his position/claims/statements with factual, relevant proof/evidence/data. It really isn't hard hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

2 enchanters and a cleric don't need to play anywhere near perfectly to never wipe. Not even fucking close. There's LOTS of room for error without any assistance from a shaman or anyone else. 2 encs could keep 12 mobs mezzed in camp for 30 minutes while the cleric takes a shit and rubs one out if they have to. I leveled a enc/enc duo with a friend of mine with no healer whatsoever and I think we died like twice? The entire time we leveled together. Not just 1 session. Many many sessions. Some sessions lasted the entire day easily over 12 hours. The cleric is the safety net for when shit goes south on rare occasion and to allow the enchanters to keep the same pet all day long without having to break and blur heal it back up or charm a new pet. Why the fuck do you think they need your torpor exactly?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

2 enchanters and a cleric don't need to play anywhere near perfectly to never wipe. Not even fucking close. There's LOTS of room for error without any assistance from a shaman or anyone else. 2 encs could keep 12 mobs mezzed in camp for 30 minutes while the cleric takes a shit and rubs one out if they have to. I leveled a enc/enc duo with a friend of mine with no healer whatsoever and I think we died like twice? The entire time we leveled together. Not just 1 session. Many many sessions. Some sessions lasted the entire day easily over 12 hours. The cleric is the safety net for when shit goes south on rare occasion and to allow the enchanters to keep the same pet all day long without having to break and blur heal it back up or charm a new pet. Why the fuck do you think they need your torpor exactly?

Easy. One of the best trios in the game is Monk/Shaman/Enchanter, who get by solely on Torpor. I am not sure why Torpor becomes irrelevant when you add one more member. If this trio wasn't very good, you would see the Shaman replaced by something else.

[Troxx]

2 enchanters and a cleric don't need to play anywhere near perfectly to never wipe. Not even fucking close. There's LOTS of room for error without any assistance from a shaman or anyone else. 2 encs could keep 12 mobs mezzed in camp for 30 minutes while the cleric takes a shit and rubs one out if they have to. I leveled a enc/enc duo with a friend of mine with no healer whatsoever and I think we died like twice? The entire time we leveled together. Not just 1 session. Many many sessions. Some sessions lasted the entire day easily over 12 hours. The cleric is the safety net for when shit goes south on rare occasion and to allow the enchanters to keep the same pet all day long without having to break and blur heal it back up or charm a new pet. Why the fuck do you think they need your torpor exactly?

Yep.

[cyxthryth]

No, because nobody else has been talking to him.

You have provided zero evidence that "nobody else has been talking to me", nor have you provided the reasoning/logic that explains why (or why not) you should (or should not) do what others are (or are not) doing, simply because they are doing it (or not).

That is clear evidence everybody is avoiding his nonsense lol.

Yet only you have labeled my posts as nonsense/silly/trolling. I will happily remind you that you claiming my posts are nonsense/silly/trolling, does not make it true just because you - repeatedly - claim it. It would have to actually be true hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

You will probably start engaging with him now just to try and disprove this point, but the post history is clear.

The post history (and looked at a different way - the lack thereof hehe :)) is indeed quite clear, and I am not sure what "point" you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting hehe. :)

The VAST majority of his posts have been ignored by every single poster in this thread.

The VAST majority of my posts have been specifically and exclusively directed toward yourself - not the other posters in this thread - hehe. :)

You can see in the beginning I tried to engage with him, but it quickly became apparent he wasn't interested in doing anything other than trolling.

You have provided zero evidence to support your apparent belief that you are somehow able to know what I am or am not interested in doing. You have also provided zero evidence to support your repeated claims that I am trolling. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

Easy. One of the best trios in the game is Monk/Shaman/Enchanter, who get by solely on Torpor. I am not sure why Torpor becomes irrelevant when you add one more member. If this trio wasn't very good, you would see the Shaman replaced by something else.

Torpor is a garbage tool for healing charm pets. I've played both enchanter and shaman at high level on P99. It doesn't even come CLOSE to the effectiveness of CH. The vast majority of this trio's damage output is charm and most of the rest of it is monk DPS. Both of which you are attack speed slowing just to heal them for less than CH heals for. That trio would instantly get significantly stronger by replacing the shaman with a cleric. Don't get me wrong. That trio is still strong. Any duo or trio with an enchanter is automatically strong. The question isn't "what's a strong trio with shaman in it?". You've once again lost track of what the question at hand is.

[Toxigen]

2 enchanters and a cleric don't need to play anywhere near perfectly to never wipe. Not even fucking close. There's LOTS of room for error without any assistance from a shaman or anyone else. 2 encs could keep 12 mobs mezzed in camp for 30 minutes while the cleric takes a shit and rubs one out if they have to. I leveled a enc/enc duo with a friend of mine with no healer whatsoever and I think we died like twice? The entire time we leveled together. Not just 1 session. Many many sessions. Some sessions lasted the entire day easily over 12 hours. The cleric is the safety net for when shit goes south on rare occasion and to allow the enchanters to keep the same pet all day long without having to break and blur heal it back up or charm a new pet. Why the fuck do you think they need your torpor exactly?

They don't. At all.

[Headbusta]

mans identifies as a shaman or something, nutty.

[Ripqozko]

mans identifies as a shaman or something, nutty.

lol

[PlsNoBan]

mans identifies as a shaman or something, nutty.

If shamans were truly as good in every situation as DSM implies there would be entire guilds full of shamans fielding 50-72 player all shaman raids lol

[Toxigen]

Like I said before...you should see DSM defend SKs too.

[Headbusta]

Like I said before...you should see DSM defend SKs too.

if you had a link to such thread, I would read it. This one has kept me entertained at work today.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Torpor is a garbage tool for healing charm pets. I've played both enchanter and shaman at high level on P99. It doesn't even come CLOSE to the effectiveness of CH. The vast majority of this trio's damage output is charm and most of the rest of it is monk DPS. Both of which you are attack speed slowing just to heal them for less than CH heals for. That trio would instantly get significantly stronger by replacing the shaman with a cleric. Don't get me wrong. That trio is still strong. Any duo or trio with an enchanter is automatically strong. The question isn't "what's a strong trio with shaman in it?". You've once again lost track of what the question at hand is.

You completely missed my point about trios, and it is silly you think a conversation about group compositions can't include discussing... group compositions.

If Torpor was so bad it couldn't be used in a trio, why is Shaman/Monk/Enchanter one of the strongest trios out there? Because CHing pets isn't the end-all-be-all of groups, and nobody has argued otherwise. The fact that CHing pets is superior to Torporing them doesn't mean that is sufficient reason to exclude a Shaman, and it is proven by the Shaman/Monk/Enchanter combo. It really isn't necessary. I have been in plenty of groups with an Enchanter where I was the primary healer, no Cleric at all.

You don't understand you can fully heal a pet quickly by breaking charm/lulling/membluring them and letting them recover if you want fast recovery. You can also have a pocket cleric lol.

If shamans were truly as good in every situation as DSM implies there would be entire guilds full of shamans fielding 50-72 player all shaman raids lol

No. Comparing raiding to grouping is just nonsense lol. This is probably your worst argument yet. I am not sure why you think my arguments are translating into raiding at all.

[Headbusta]

The pocket cleric logic, is like saying in a boxing match you have a gun and are allowed to use that. Like in the rules it doesn't say you cant use a gun, but obviously you cant.

Also it feels like like you are personally attacked because people don't hold shamans as high as you do. It's a 23 year old elf simulator, sorry the game isn't balanced and chanters are OP.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

the pocket cleric logic, is like saying in a boxing match you have a gun and are allowed to use that.

Like in the rules it doesn't say you cant use a gun, but obviously you cant.

Not at all. Pocket clerics are a common practice in P99. This is especially true among the experienced players we are discussing. OP never said you couldn't bring one. You are the one making the arbitrary claim pocket clerics cannot be used, simply because it helps your side. There is no logical reason why you can't bring a pocket cleric.


Also it feels like like you are personally attacked because people don't hold shamans as high as you do. It's a 23 year old elf simulator, sorry the game isn't balanced and chanters are OP.

This is just silly. I don't feel attacked at all. Shamans are OP enough. I am simply not going to admit I am wrong because the trolls want me to. If they think they are right, they need to prove it. So far, they have done a very poor job.

[Troxx]

Like I said before...you should see DSM defend SKs too.

Have a link?

I love me some garbage to read when bored at work.

[Kich867]

Not at all. Pocket clerics are a common practice in P99. This is especially true among the experienced players we are discussing. OP never said you couldn't bring one. You are the one making the arbitrary claim pocket clerics cannot be used, simply because it helps your side. There is no logical reason why you can't bring a pocket cleric.

I mean, isn't the logical reason because it would open up the flood gates for bringing a bunch of "pocket" characters...at which point what the fuck are we even talking about?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean, isn't the logical reason because it would open up the flood gates for bringing a bunch of "pocket" characters...at which point what the fuck are we even talking about?

No, because you only need to level a cleric to 39 for CH, and 49 for a 90% res.

This is why "pocket clerics" are a very common thing on P99. They are probably the easiest "pocket" class to get the the point where they have everything they could need, with basically no gear at all. They also level pretty quickly due to having an experience bonus via being a halfling.

Even a "pocket druid" is harder to make, because you cannot teleport the user who is operating the "pocket druid", so you need to make at least two, or be very proactive about binding. Anybody can quickly swap to a "pocket cleric" for a quick res or CH and swap back. The cleric doesn't need to do anything else.

Many classes need more gear/levels/time invested to make them a "pocket" anything. It is going to take a LOT more energy to make a "pocket Torpor Shaman", for example.

[Headbusta]

I have a pocket raid GG

[Troxx]

Torpor is only good because the class that can use it can cannibalize their hp into mana and turn that mana efficiently back into health that can be cannibalized yet again. That same class can also slow mobs, take quite a few hits … etc. It is the shaman paradigm that makes Torpor so game breakingly useful. We’ll … that and the only other non-cleric priest is stuck spending 400 mana for a 900hp heal vs low mana for a 1200-1500hp heal over time depending on luck and server ticks.

Beyond that torpor is actually annoying due to snare and slow effects.

That’s the funny thing about this thread. 100% of people here agree that shamans are insanely good. Beyond any doubt.

They just aren’t a contender for “best 4 man caster/priest only group”. They are nowhere near the worst.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a cleric”? Sure, if the shaman is 60 and has torpor otherwise Druids become more viable.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a enchanter”? Absolutely, without a doubt.

But with cleric healing (it is undeniably superior) and enchanter utility (again undeniably superior and overlaps with all critical utility functions) … shaman just doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than 55 combined shaman/pet dps.

I am glad you settled on a reasonable 55dps number DSM. That is a number I can actually get behind and believe when it’s the only thing you’re focusing on doing.

It is also incidentally worse than an unfocused level 60 water pet by itself … and even further behind a focused 60 water pet or epic pet.

[Crede]

Have a link?

I love me some garbage to read when bored at work.

You can start with his shaman guide in his signature, in which he claims to have solved the shaman racial debate(ogre bias) using more napkin math in which ogre ties with iksar but ogre wins due to jbb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Torpor is only good because the class that can use it can cannibalize their hp into mana and turn that mana efficiently back into health that can be cannibalized yet again. That same class can also slow mobs, take quite a few hits … etc. It is the shaman paradigm that makes Torpor so game breakingly useful. We’ll … that and the only other non-cleric priest is stuck spending 400 mana for a 900hp heal vs low mana for a 1200-1500hp heal over time depending on luck and server ticks.

Beyond that torpor is actually annoying due to snare and slow effects.

That’s the funny thing about this thread. 100% of people here agree that shamans are insanely good. Beyond any doubt.

They just aren’t a contender for “best 4 man caster/priest only group”. They are nowhere near the worst.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a cleric”? Sure, if the shaman is 60 and has torpor otherwise Druids become more viable.

If you said “best 4 man caster/priest only group where you can’t bring a enchanter”? Absolutely, without a doubt.

But with cleric healing (it is undeniably superior) and enchanter utility (again undeniably superior and overlaps with all critical utility functions) … shaman just doesn’t have a leg to stand on other than 55 combined shaman/pet dps.

I am glad you settled on a reasonable 55dps number DSM. That is a number I can actually get behind and believe when it’s the only thing you’re focusing on doing.

It is also incidentally worse than an unfocused level 60 water pet by itself … and even further behind a focused 60 water pet or epic pet.

The 55 DPS number is assuming you are only chain pulling, and the group isn't allowing the Shaman to root/rot. Thank you for admitting my data is valid, though. This means you agree you can get DPS numbers outside of grouping.

A Shaman can do more DPS on any targets that take a minute or longer to kill, due to having DoTs.

A Shaman can do 150 DPS or more root rotting, and JimJam supported me when he said he saw a Shaman root/rotting Velk spiders in a group.

The issue is people keep trying to force the conversation down the narrow path that a level 60 group is simply chain pulling trash in Seb, and the Shaman can't root/rot. Of course the Shaman is going to have their DPS minimized in this very specific scenario.

The reality is DPS breakpoints exist, and the Mage is simply not giving you any more kills per hour with the extra DPS they provide in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage combination. A Shaman will open up more camp options than a Mage, while also providing more safety and adequate DPS.

[Troxx]

Back to root rotting in parallel with your group lol

55dps isn’t adequate at 60. It’s pretty bad. My 60 paladin hovers around 75dps with BASIC buffs in seb. More on undead. I lub me some great spear of dawn procs.

repeat after me … shamans are not a group dps class and never will be

Solo? Yep.

Duo? Sure why not. Dots are gonna do their thing.

Trio? Depends on the trio.

Fast paced and/or high dps group? Oh hell no.

[cyxthryth]

reality

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[Kich867]

No, because you only need to level a cleric to 39 for CH, and 49 for a 90% res.

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

[Headbusta]

You can start with his shaman guide in his signature, in which he claims to have solved the shaman racial debate(ogre bias) using more napkin math in which ogre ties with iksar but ogre wins due to jbb.

I love that all this effort, writing up these different scenarios and using a tally system is equated to napkin math. That shit makes me smh.

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

The bard comment made me laugh.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

As I said, pocket druids are harder to operate because you cannot teleport the player who is operating the druid, so you would need two pocket druids. It takes twice as long to level two characters to their 40s.

The problem with a pocket bard is the bard needs to constantly be logged in to give your group the meditation song, so the player who logged out would still need to meditate after they log out of the bard.

A pocket Necro for twitch wouldn't be worth it since twitch costs so much mana. You are getting very little mana from the Necro before having to meditate. A level 49 Cleric could do quite a few CH's before you would need to swap to meditate, and that can be during waiting for respawns.

Back to root rotting in parallel with your group lol

55dps isn’t adequate at 60. It’s pretty bad. My 60 paladin hovers around 75dps with BASIC buffs in seb. More on undead. I lub me some great spear of dawn procs.

repeat after me … shamans are not a group dps class and never will be

Solo? Yep.

Duo? Sure why not. Dots are gonna do their thing.

Trio? Depends on the trio.

Fast paced and/or high dps group? Oh hell no.

Yes, root/rotting is valid, even if you don't like it lol. DoTing mobs that take longer to kill is also valid. Again, you keep refusing to allow the Shaman to DPS, and then complain they have low DPS. That is like forcing the Mage to not use their pet, and then saying a Mage's DPS is low.

[cyxthryth]

As I said

For anyone who needs a reminder of what DSM has said:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[Troxx]

QUIT TALKING ABOUT POCKET CHARACTERS!

The point is that pocket characters are not a part of this discussion. I am, however, loving the mental gymnastics requires to rationalize adding the shaman … because your argument obligates this group has to bring the class it really needed/wanted as a log in bot.

[Kich867]

As I said, pocket druids are harder to operate because you cannot teleport the player who is operating the druid, so you would need two pocket druids. It takes twice as long to level two characters to their 40s.

The problem with a pocket bard is the bard needs to constantly be logged in to give your group the meditation song, so the player who logged out would still need to meditate after they log out of the bard.

A pocket Necro for twitch wouldn't be worth it since twitch costs so much mana. You are getting very little mana from the Necro before having to meditate. A level 49 Cleric could do quite a few CH's before you would need to swap to meditate, and that can be during waiting for respawns.

You would need someone to teleport the cleric too. And it takes an equivalent amount of time because two different people are doing it. The pocket druid could port the pocket cleric, necro, and bard along. You could also bring along a pocket mage to summon items for the enchanter pets.

Pocket characters aren't really part of the discussion, if anything it just muddies what's already a pretty nebulous conversation into full on obscurity of a point. Like yeah, a group of 12 people is better than a group of 4 people. Cool.

[Headbusta]

this man got an ogre shaman brain irl.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You would need someone to teleport the cleric too. And it takes an equivalent amount of time because two different people are doing it. The pocket druid could port the pocket cleric, necro, and bard along.

Very true. I am just trying to say that a pocket cleric takes the least amount of time to make in comparison to other pocket classes. This is why they are very common on P99.

Any group without a dedicated porter is going to be asking another druid/wizard for a port. It isn't difficult to ask the porter to teleport the cleric too, and pay them extra. It would take an extra 2 minutes.

If pocket clerics didn't offer as much as they did, I agree they would be off the table. But again, they simply offer way more than any equivalent pocket character for the time invested. They are pretty unique in that regard.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/IKjvYBiuYJEAAAAM/herrje.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

QUIT TALKING ABOUT POCKET CHARACTERS!

The point is that pocket characters are not a part of this discussion. I am, however, loving the mental gymnastics requires to rationalize adding the shaman … because your argument obligates this group has to bring the class it really needed/wanted as a log in bot.

Not at all. A Shaman/Necro/Mage/Enchanter group would work 100% fine without a pocket cleric. They have all the healing they need. It is why a Shaman/Enchanter/Monk trio works. They have the healing.

I am simply pointing out you CAN add a pocket cleric to any group composition if you wish, which is a common thing among experienced players.

I don't know where people thought I said a Shaman/Necro/Mage/Enchanter requires a pocket cleric to work. They have healing and res already, and a Shaman can primary heal just fine with Torpor.

I don't know how people can say an Enchanter/Shaman/Monk trio has enough heals to operate efficiently, but when you add another member that suddenly vanishes.

[Troxx]

Yes it would work fine. But it would not work better than a cleric 2 chanters and literally any other warm-body mouth breathing druid or wizard (worst options for 4th spot)

More tangents time?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes it would work fine. But it would not work better than a cleric 2 chanters and literally any other warm-body mouth breathing druid or wizard (worst options for 4th spot)

You have yet to prove that, and the DPS breakpoints show otherwise. You can hit the DPS breakpoints just fine with a Necro/Shaman/Enchanter/Mage, while having all of the healing/resing/utility necessary to efficiently camp anything a four man group could do.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/IKjvYBiuYJEAAAAM/herrje.gif

[Kich867]

If pocket clerics didn't offer as much as they did, I agree they would be off the table. But again, they simply offer way more than any equivalent pocket character for the time invested. They are pretty unique in that regard.

Sure but that's just talking past people at that point and isn't conducive to the point--every group is better with an outside character doing things for them. I understand it's not _literally_ the same thing but this is essentially saying that having a squadron of people outside of your group assist you is fair game, and that's obviously not the intent of the conversation.

The line has to be drawn on how much assistance the group can be offered, and in my version of the conversation, it's "none", because no other version of that conversation is that interesting. Like yeah dude my group of 4 wizards is fuckin dope, we have a pocket enchanter give us all C2, a pocket druid giving us POTG, a pocket paladin tank for us, and a pocket cleric to heal and rez us.

[cyxthryth]

You have yet to prove

You have yet to prove your much-repeated and - objectively - false claims that I am a troll / that I am trolling / that all of my posts are copy/pastes of "silly" "nonsense". This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

You have yet to prove your much-repeated and - objectively - false claims that I am a troll / that I am trolling / that all of my posts are copy/pastes of "silly" "nonsense". This really isn't hard hehe. :)

He ain’t gonna reply to you man. Why is it only you he chooses to ignore? I dunno but it’s pretty damn funny. He’ll reply to my random GiFs but not you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sure but that's just talking past people at that point and isn't conducive to the point--every group is better with an outside character doing things for them. I understand it's not _literally_ the same thing but this essentially saying that having a squadron of people outside of your group assist you is fair game, and that's obviously not the intent of the conversation.

The line has to be drawn on how much assistance the group can be offered, and in my version of the conversation, it's "none", because no other version of that conversation is that interesting. Like yeah dude my group of 4 wizards is fuckin dope, we have a pocket enchanter give us all C2, a pocket druid giving us POTG, a pocket paladin tank for us, and a pocket cleric to heal and rez us.

I understand your point.

The issue is people are trying to claim a Shaman/Necro/Mage/Enchanter group would need a pocket cleric to operate. This is 100% not the case, nor have I ever made such a claim.

Shaman/Necro/Mage/Enchanter would tear through content very efficiently without the need for CH. The Necro is able to Res, the Necro/Shaman can heal, and the Shaman/Enchanter can slow to reduce damage.

I simply mentioned the possibility of a pocket cleric because we are assuming the players are experienced, and a lot of experienced players have a pocket cleric due to their ease of creation. Taking pocket clerics off the table doesn't change the efficacy of a Shaman/Necro/Mage/Enchanter group. It simply enhances it if that is something you want to explore.

It also doesn't move any goal posts, since OP didn't say you couldn't bring one. I am not afraid to talk about common facts of the game, such as pocket clerics and their common use.

He ain’t gonna reply to you man. Why is it only you he chooses to ignore? I dunno but it’s pretty damn funny. He’ll reply to my random GiFs but not you.

You should ask yourself the same question, since you have ignored the vast majority of his posts too lol.

[Troxx]

I just do not have any rebuttals to any of his posts. They are generally spot on.

[cyxthryth]

I just do not have any rebuttals to any of his posts. They are generally spot on.

Thanks for the support!

He ain’t gonna reply to you man. Why is it only you he chooses to ignore? I dunno but it’s pretty damn funny. He’ll reply to my random GiFs but not you.

I am not sure, but maybe/perhaps/possibly it's because he has no rebuttals to my posts either hehe. :) I mean, if he had any, he could simply provide the relevant data/evidence that supports his position/claims/"arguments" hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I just do not have any rebuttals to any of his posts. They are generally spot on.

Looks like what I said came true already:


You will probably start engaging with him now just to try and disprove this point, but the post history is clear. The VAST majority of his posts have been ignored by every single poster in this thread.

You can look back at the post history and see that everybody (including yourself) is ignoring him. This is a very poor attempt to try and paint him as not a troll. If it was just me trying to avoid his points, wouldn't you see a bunch of other people engaging with him? I tried to engage with him when he started posting, but he has shown himself to be a troll fairly early on.

You have reached a new level of desperation by trying to pretend you weren't ignoring him, along with all the other posters. When you can't win with facts and logic, you just double down on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum .

[Kich867]

I just do not have any rebuttals to any of his posts. They are generally spot on.

C'mon, there's no way you even read them haha. The dude uses sub-parenthesis and has copy-pasted the same thing for like 150 pages, there's really not a lot of content in them to even agree or disagree with, way too strong of magnetaress vibes or whatever their name is.

[cyxthryth]

Looks like what I said came true already:


You will probably start engaging with him now just to try and disprove this point, but the post history is clear. The VAST majority of his posts have been ignored by every single poster in this thread.

The problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe it is somehow relevant how many other posters reply to me, when the VAST majority of my posts have been directed to you - and not any other particular single poster in this thread - hehe. :)

You can look back at the post history and see that everybody (including yourself) is ignoring him.

This is - objectively - false. Even you have - very selectively - replied to some of my earlier posts, as you (yourself) have admitted hehe. :)

This is a very poor attempt to try and paint him as not a troll.

Why does your post seem to imply that you believe that I am or should be "painted" as any particular thing? If I am a troll, you should be able to provide evidence that supports/proves it, however, you have not provided - and seemingly cannot provide - evidence to support your repeated (unsubstantiated & false) claims.

If it was just me trying to avoid his points, wouldn't you see a bunch of other people engaging with him?

The problem is your post seems to (attempt to) dismiss/disregard the relevant/pertinent fact that the VAST majority of my posts have been directed toward you, specifically & exclusively. You have provided no reasoning or logic as to how that has any relation, relevance or bearing on why you (specifically & exclusively) are (seemingly) unwilling to engage with me in a civil discussion.

I tried to engage with him when he started posting, but he has shown himself to be a troll fairly early on.

Again, as I have stated to you multiple times, you have provided zero evidence that supports your claim that I have "shown myself to be a troll". This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Karanis]

Let's all just quote cyxthryth's posts only, that way DSM can either hilariously attempt to respond to him, talk to himself, or stop posting entirely!

Reposting the current state of the discussion:



DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let's all just quote cyxthryth's posts only, that way DSM can either hilariously attempt to respond to him, talk to himself, or stop posting entirely!

This won't hurt me. Trolling more just makes you look like... a troll. Great way to try and show your points are valid, and not just trolling:) Please do this.

[Troxx]

C'mon, there's no way you even read them haha. The dude uses sub-parenthesis and has copy-pasted the same thing for like 150 pages, there's really not a lot of content in them to even agree or disagree with, way too strong of magnetaress vibes or whatever their name is.

It’s mostly copy paste … a mirroring of tactic DSM has been using. I just scan them for new stuff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s mostly copy paste … a mirroring of tactic DSM has been using. I just scan them for new stuff.

The difference is he is copy/pasting nonsense, and I am copy pasting the actual math/data that has been accumulated thus far.

You yourself are just copy/pasting insults and memes lol. I am not sure why you think you are any better than him.

Your refusal to believe basic math and data does not mean the posts are the same. I will not allow the trolls to drown out the facts simply because they don't like them.

[Troxx]

The difference is he is copy/pasting nonsense, and I am copy pasting the actual math/data that has been accumulated thus far.

https://c.tenor.com/vD1u4OoQBZsAAAAM/the-irony-joke.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yup, you go back to trolling when you can't disprove my point. I predict another nonsense post from cyxthryth ahead.

[cyxthryth]

The difference is he is copy/pasting nonsense, and I am copy pasting the actual math/data that has been accumulated thus far.

For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "nonsense" are you using?

You yourself are just copy/pasting insults and memes lol.

For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "insult" and "meme" are you using?

I am not sure why you think you are any better than him.

I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate/reveal/betray that you (seemingly) believe that you are aware of what others think, or why your post would seem to imply that there is any merit or relevance whether a particular poster is "any better than" another particular poster (or what that even means, as you have provided no definition[s]).

For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "better" are you using?

Your refusal to believe basic math and data does not mean the posts are the same.

You have provided zero evidence to support your apparent claim that "refusal to believe basic math and data does not mean the posts are the same" (whatever that is supposed to mean).

I will not allow the trolls to drown out the facts simply because they don't like them.

For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "trolls" are you using?

Hehe. :)

[Karanis]

I mean, you're literally scared to engage with him. His posts are absolutely not just "nonsense". And if this thread is just filled with his posts/quotes of his posts, you're either going to engage with him finally, talk to fucking no one, or stop posting entirely. All 3 options are entertaining.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Karanis]

Please ignore DeathsSilkyMist, he's a complete dumbfuck.

18784

[cyxthryth]

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[Crede]

He ain’t gonna reply to you man. Why is it only you he chooses to ignore? I dunno but it’s pretty damn funny. He’ll reply to my random GiFs but not you.

I concur, reading cyxthryth's posts and watching DSM blatantly ignore them has brought me the most enjoyment in this thread. This is due to the fact that everything he says are objective truths, whereas everything DSM says is an opinion, so there's really no way for DSM to refute anything he says. Cyxthryth's is just playing this forum logic chess game better than DSM. I think we should all stop responding so they can actually attempt to have a civil discussion, since DSM's constant ignores have forced him to go strictly into quoting mode.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

The problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that your opinion of what is significant - such as a difference in kill time of 4.3 seconds per mob - is objective; it is not - it is simply your opinion hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

[PlsNoBan]

I generally find obsessively copy pasting the same bullshit over and over kind of tiring. I have done it myself so I can't talk shit. Mostly reminding DSM how he contradicted himself them tried to backpedal and deflect. But I can't say I disagree with much of anything cyxthryth has said. He understands how full of shit DSM is like everyone else does. There's only been 1 or 2 VQ guildies or DSM family members posting occasionally in support of anything he's posted (over 900 times btw)

[Karanis]

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I concur, reading cyxthryth's posts and watching DSM blatantly ignore them has brought me the most enjoyment in this thread. This is due to the fact that everything he says are objective truths, whereas everything DSM says is an opinion, so there's really no way for DSM to refute anything he says. Cyxthryth's is just playing this forum logic chess game better than DSM. I think we should all stop responding so they can actually attempt to have a civil discussion, since DSM's constant ignores have forced him to go strictly into quoting mode.

You always conveniently forget that every other poster has been ignoring him. It isn't a valid argument. You simply stopped ignoring him to double down on your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument. It's clear in the post history lol.

It means the trolls are getting desperate though, turning to someone they used to ignore themselves.

[PlsNoBan]

Should we plan some kind of celebration for DSM's inevitable 1000th post in this idiot thread?

[Crede]

You always conveniently forget that every other poster has been ignoring him. It isn't a valid argument. You simply stopped ignoring him to double down on your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument. It's clear in the post history lol.

It means the trolls are getting desperate though, turning to someone they used to ignore themselves.

I never once ignored him. As he stated, he has directed all of his posts at you, and had he directed anything at me, I gladly would have responded. I've 100% agreed with everything he says, you're honestly just afraid to engage him in direct discussion, lol.

Also, you are very incorrect in calling my argument Argumentum ad populum. I've advocated since page 1 that this 4 man group should be enchanter/cleric/mage/necro, which has been much less popular than some of the other compositions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never once ignored him. As he stated, he has directed all of his posts at you, and had he directed anything at me, I gladly would have responded. I've 100% agreed with everything he says, you're honestly just afraid to engage him in direct discussion, lol.

You have barely posted here. That doesn't mean anything. The vast majority of posters have ignored everything his said throughout the thread. That hasn't changed. It isn't like you posting now has changed the post history.

He is ignored by everybody because his posts are nonsensical. I am not the only one doing it.

[Crede]

You have barely posted here. That doesn't mean anything. The vast majority of posters have ignored everything his said throughout the thread. That hasn't changed. It isn't like you coming here has changed the post history.

To ignore would mean to refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

We've all acknowledged & noticed his posts. There would be no way for us to disregard them intentionally, because they have all been directed at you.

So no, nobody has ignored what he has had to say, I would gladly respond if he wasn't directing 100% of his posts at you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To ignore would mean to refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

We've all acknowledged & noticed his posts. There would be no way for us to disregard them intentionally, because they have all been directed at you.

So no, nobody has ignored what he has had to say, I would gladly respond if he wasn't directing 100% of his posts at you.

You can look at the post history. If people were noticing his posts, they would have responded to at least one of them lol. This was only done recently when he changed his nonsense posting tactics, which still don't make sense.

Again, this is simply desperation because you only have the number of users on your side, not facts and logic. Hence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum . If you want to have a discussion about what I have posted, please use what I have said, not the straw men that have been created by users like Cyxthryth.

[PlsNoBan]

Should we plan some kind of celebration for DSM's inevitable 1000th post in this idiot thread?

https://i.imgur.com/p2dmYdw.png

We don't have long for planning. Maybe we can all sign a jpeg of an ogre shaman root rotting adds in a group? I'd say to include the pocket cleric but it'd obviously be logged out for the screenshot

[Crede]

You can look at the post history. If people were noticing his posts, they would have responded to at least one of them lol. This was only done recently when he changed his nonsense posting tactics, which still don't make sense.

Again, this is simply desperation because you only have the number of users on your side, not facts and logic. Hence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum . If you want to have a discussion about what I have posted, please use what I have said, not the straw men that have been created by users like Cyxthryth.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to comprehend.

Nobody is responding to his posts because they were all directed at you. What part of that is not clear to you?

He simply resorted to quoting the state of your discussion, because you refused to continue to engage him in discussion, despite the fact that you've engaged everyone else in discussion.

Had he directed at least 1 post at someone else, or implied he was willing to have a discussion, we would have. We've all noticed him, and agreed with him. You don't need to respond to someone to notice them, lol.

Unfortunately you are the only one ignoring, since you are deliberately choosing to not respond to his posts directed at you.

[Crede]

I concur, reading cyxthryth's posts and watching DSM blatantly ignore them has brought me the most enjoyment in this thread. This is due to the fact that everything he says are objective truths, whereas everything DSM says is an opinion, so there's really no way for DSM to refute anything he says. Cyxthryth's is just playing this forum logic chess game better than DSM. I think we should all stop responding so they can actually attempt to have a civil discussion, since DSM's constant ignores have forced him to go strictly into quoting mode.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to comprehend.

Nobody is responding to his posts because they were all directed at you. What part of that is not clear to you?

He simply resorted to quoting the state of your discussion, because you refused to continue to engage him in discussion, despite the fact that you've engaged everyone else in discussion.

Had he directed at least 1 post at someone else, or implied he was willing to have a discussion, we would have. We've all noticed him, and agreed with him. You don't need to respond to someone to notice them, lol.

Unfortunately you are the only one ignoring, since you are deliberately choosing to not respond to his posts directed at you.

Oh it's very clear. People have been responding to other posts directed at me throughout this thread. There is no rule saying a post directed at user X can only be responded to by user X lol.

If he wasn't being ignored, he would have more people quoting him when making their points, which has been a common pattern with the other posters.

I am sorry you are this desperate that you have to include the one poster in this thread who's entire post history is nonsense.

The one common pattern in this thread has been the utter ignoring of cyxthryth by all users.

[Crede]

Oh it's very clear. People have been responding to other posts directed at me throughout this thread. There is no rule saying a post directed at user X can only be responded to by user X lol.

If he wasn't being ignored, he would have more people quoting him when making their points, which has been a common pattern.

I am sorry you are this desperate that you have to include the one poster in this thread who's entire post history is nonsense.

Lol, I'm not desperate, sorry?

You've proved nothing to anybody, per usual, other than you value wasted utility over dps.

I'm just here for the enjoyment, looking forward to continued posts from cyx.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol, I'm not desperate, sorry?

You've proved nothing to anybody, per usual, other than you value wasted utility over dps.

I'm just here for the enjoyment, looking forward to continued posts from cyx.

The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Only someone who is trying to deceive themselves wouldn't notice cyxthryth has been ignored for the entire thread by everybody until very recently.

[slard271]

Please, don't let it get lost. It just strengthens my argument, because DPS has diminishing returns as you stack more. The more DPS an Enchanter does, the less useful the Mage is.

DPS stacks - mathematically, mind you, cuz data - linearly. "But meh utility and healz!" can more often than not in this fantasy scenario offer null returns or objectively less than a mage or necro. But it's not like it's possible to acknowledge anything other than delete-all-classes-but-shaman at this point so /shrug hehe.

[cyxthryth]

The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting by stating "You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else", but I will remind you of the irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - that you yourself attempted to use that very https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum "argument" when a mere single (1) person seemed to agree with you hehe. :) I will remind you with your own quotes, which are viewable by all:

OP agrees I am not moving the goalposts, since his post was general. There is nothing that says you can't have a pocket cleric.

to which I already replied with the following:

Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

You did not reply to my post (as usual). Hehe. :)

Only someone who is trying to deceive themselves wouldn't notice cyxthryth has been ignored for the entire thread by everybody until very recently.

As has already been explained to you, it is you who my posts have been directed toward, and yes, as I have (repeatedly) stated, you are indeed ignoring my posts. The post history is clear. In all of that very clear post history, you have provided zero evidence to support your claims that I am a troll, that I am "silly", that my posts are nonsense, etc. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

DPS stacks - mathematically, mind you, cuz data - linearly. "But meh utility and healz!" can more often than not in this fantasy scenario offer null returns or objectively less than a mage or necro. But it's not like it's possible to acknowledge anything other than delete-all-classes-but-shaman at this point so /shrug hehe.

Well said.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DPS stacks - mathematically, mind you, cuz data - linearly. "But meh utility and healz!" can more often than not in this fantasy scenario offer null returns or objectively less than a mage or necro. But it's not like it's possible to acknowledge anything other than delete-all-classes-but-shaman at this point so /shrug hehe.

Nice strawman claiming I only care about Shamans. You are also wrong about DPS stacking being relevant at all points. DPS has diminishing returns. It eventually offers nothing.

[Troxx]

I do also find it funny that he loves to pull out the Argumentum ad populum bs to refute the collective assertions from all of us … yet any time any one person says any single thing that even kind of jives with the point he wants to make, he clings to it like a starving raccoon who just found a half-eaten saltine cracker.

https://c.tenor.com/ZLcZruMjz24AAAAd/raccoon-bread.gif

[Toxigen]

Honestly, I may even take a druid over a shaman for 1-60 leveling in that enc / enc / cleric / XXX 4 man. If you did Warrens --> Perma --> CT --> Kedge --> Chardok you could always have an animal to charm, and this is also an insanely high ZEM pathway. Certainly not as good as mage / necro, but hell...it really isn't that far behind either.

Plenty of other dungeon options with animals too...plus the luxury of porting around...especially nice for an all caster group that needs to go get their spells!

Can't wait to watch DSM go through the roof when he reads this hot take.

[Karanis]

18787

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Honestly, I may even take a druid over a shaman for 1-60 leveling in that enc / enc / cleric / XXX 4 man. If you did Warrens --> Perma --> CT --> Kedge --> Chardok you could always have an animal to charm, and this is also an insanely high ZEM pathway.

Plenty of other dungeon options with animals too...plus the luxury of porting around...especially nice for an all caster group that needs to go get their spells!

Then you wouldn't have a very useful class at 60. A lot of combinations work well in the leveling process, but then you have a 60 druid that isn't offering as much as another class.

[Toxigen]

Then you wouldn't have a very useful class at 60. A lot of combinations work well in the leveling process, but then you have a 60 druid that isn't offering as much as another class.

Yeah. A druid can then plvl this groups melee alts / twinks.

Thats when you get a shaman going.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah. A druid can then plvl this groups melee alts / twinks.

And a Shaman can open up more camps at level 60 for getting great gear to twink said alts.

[Ripqozko]

We get it, you play a shaman

[Crede]

Honestly, I may even take a druid over a shaman for 1-60 leveling in that enc / enc / cleric / XXX 4 man. If you did Warrens --> Perma --> CT --> Kedge --> Chardok you could always have an animal to charm, and this is also an insanely high ZEM pathway.

Plenty of other dungeon options with animals too...plus the luxury of porting around...especially nice for an all caster group that needs to go get their spells!

I'd agree with this. If the group is willing to stick to animal zones than the druid will prove to be much more useful than the shaman.

But it really isn't hard to prove how unnecessary a shaman is in bigger group compositions. If I have a fast killing group that already has a cleric, I prefer the shaman to do the pulling so the real dps can focus on mowing down mobs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'd agree with this. If the group is willing to stick to animal zones than the druid will prove to be much more useful than the shaman.

But it really isn't hard to prove how unnecessary a shaman is in bigger group compositions. If I have a fast killing group that already has a cleric, I prefer the shaman to do the pulling so the real dps can focus on mowing down mobs.

You could certainly level efficiently with 4 druids, just sticking to outdoor/charming camps. But I don't think anybody is advocating for a 4 druid group.

It's also easy to prove DPS provides diminishing returns on bigger group compositions.

[Troxx]

Then you wouldn't have a very useful class at 60. A lot of combinations work well in the leveling process, but then you have a 60 druid that isn't offering as much as another class.

Case could be made it’s about as useful at 60 as a shaman in this theoretical group. POTG, free clicky group regen, ports/evacs and some half decent druid nukes and DS vs a whopping 55dps with of shaman.

Maybe tox has a point?!

https://c.tenor.com/xhQh9kx3eB4AAAAC/giggle.gif

Ok DSM we have established shamans are less than half as good as a mage. I now vote we redirect this discussion.

DSM now you gotta make the case why 55 dps worth of shaman is so much better than all the extra stacking utility Druids have compared to shamans in this theoretical group makeup!

….. and go!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Case could be made it’s about as useful at 60 as a shaman in this theoretical group. POTG, free clicky group regen, ports/evacs and some half decent druid nukes and DS vs a whopping 55dps with of shaman.

Maybe tox has a point?!

Ok DSM we have established shamans are less than half as good as a mage. I now vote we redirect this discussion.

DSM now you gotta make the case why 55 dps worth of shaman is so much better than all the extra stacking utility Druids have compared to shamans in this theoretical group makeup!

….. and go!

You didn't read the data, which is why you are sticking to the lowest DPS number possible. You are basically saying Mage DPS is bad because you won't let the Mage use their pet. Great argument.

55 DPS is assuming you aren't letting your Shaman root/rot in a group chain pulling easy mobs. Again, that is like telling the Mage they can't use their pet. Nobody cares that you don't like root/rotting in a group.

[Troxx]

DSM now realizing that in using his own backwards logic (dps is irrelevant since you already hit your soft cap) he now realizes he has to compete with Druids for a spot.

https://c.tenor.com/QdAU5GjF5wsAAAAC/brain-explosion.gif

-1-59 druid might just be flat out better everywhere. If you have animals to charm it’s no contest.
-at 60 the shaman is only 55 dps. Druid isn’t far behind that but has actual utility that isn’t redundant unlike the shaman.

https://c.tenor.com/6vaoYZcGakkAAAAC/shocked-face.gif

Ok DSM. Make your case. We will be the judge and jury. Why is a shaman better than a druid?

…. and go!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If druids can compete for a spot, then the druid is also superior to the Mage. Again, this is not helping your argument.

It just shows you care more about excluding a Shaman (to prove me wrong) than to have a discussion.

Every class provides something unique, so of course you could include a druid and be fine. I am not sure why you think otherwise.

But we haven't been debating pure preference.

I just find it funny you finally admit my data is valid (which is why you are using the 55 DPS number). You are making progress, but you are still wrong because that is not the only DPS output possible. It is the most constrained DPS number a Shaman can do.

[Troxx]

Please provide facts and data when you make your case. Evidence is important now don’cha’know.

If dps is past the diminishing returns why would I ever take 55 shaman dps over unlimited potg, snares, ports, evacs, free clicky regen, pretty good damage shield … oh and they can nuke at least as well as a shaman if not better. Is it the 18 dps pet that puts the shaman over the top? They can also heal to save the cleric and 2 enchanters from the emergency that will never happen. That’s a metric anus-load of utility we’re talking about here DSM!

You got your work cut out for you.

Make your case. Why take a shaman in this theoretical group instead of a druid?

… and go!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please provide facts and data when you make your case. Evidence is important now don’cha’know.

If dps is past the diminishing returns why would I ever take 55 shaman dps over unlimited potg, snares, ports, evacs, free clicky regen, pretty good damage shield … oh and they can nuke at least as well as a shaman if not better. Is it the 18 dps pet that puts the shaman over the top? They can also heal to save the cleric and 2 enchanters from the emergency that will never happen.

You got your work cut out for you.

Make your case. Why take a shaman in this theoretical group instead of a druid?

… and go!

There are camps that an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Druid group couldn't do. West Waste Dragons and Ixiblat Fer are two that come to mind.

The druid will offer benefits while leveling (similar to a Mage), but once you hit 60 the druid isn't doing much for the group. The Shaman has a higher ceiling on what it is enabling the group to do than either a Mage or a Druid.

If you prefer to do less camps and have free ports, that is a perfectly fine preference. But your group isn't increasing it's kills per hour or doable camps this way, so it will be weaker in the endgame.

[Troxx]

There are camps that an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Druid group couldn't do. West Waste Dragons and Ixiblat Fer are two that come to mind.

Ok that’s 2 camps ... one of which isn’t a camp really. What about the other 99.9% of groupable content in Norrath.

You’re not making a strong case yet …

We need facts! Math! Logic! Above all … we need concrete thinking!

Why waste a spot on 55 dps of shaman when a druid brings o so much more non-redundant utility and emergency life saving prowess … and can nuke better than you?!

100% up time potg in a full caster group is sounding pretty good right about now. That’s a lot of extra mana for everybody involved rather than the self-cannibalizing shaman who is still only 55dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok that’s 2 camps ... one of which isn’t a camp really. What about the other 99.9% of groupable content in Norrath.

You’re not making a strong case yet …

The only thing that matters if you want to min/max the game with a group is kills per hour and number of doable camps. Everything else can be covered externally, such as ports from other players.

Shaman offers more doable camps than Mage or Druid, and their DPS isn't lowering your kills per hour. So the Shaman gives the better number of doable camps and maintains your kills per hour.

They also offer a lot of safety, which means your kills per hour remain consistent. Every wipe your group has will lower their average kills per hour.

Leveling with a 4 man caster group is going to be fast, whether you have a Shaman, a Mage, or a Druid. It's already going to be a great leveling experience.

If you care more about the leveling experience, other classes would be better than a Shaman from 1-60. I said this on page 1. But since OP didn't specify the level range, I am taking into consideration the entire game, including level 60 farming.

I don't know why this bothers you so much you have to troll for hundreds of posts.

[Troxx]

I am applying DSM logic.

A). The mage does more than double the damage of the shaman. We don’t need that extra dps so let’s take redundant utility.

B) a focused dps druid will put out 80-90% of a shamans dps in nukes and adds DS along with a ton of utility. Some is redundant but lots of it is not.

Therefore druid is actually better than a shaman in this group!

Again. I we’re playing along and have hopped aboard the DSM thought-train. (Choo choo!)

[PlsNoBan]

I made the druid argument earlier in this thread somewhere. Don't care to dig for it. Druid is a WAY better option than shaman if animals are available to charm. It's not even a contest in a zone like Chardok. Likely better even without charm. In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that "safety" is needed beyond 2 encs and a cleric. Druid direct healing is as good/better? Torpor isn't an emergency heal for when shit hits the fan. Druid also has the option of evac. Their utility has less overlap with the existing group and their buffs are better for casters than shaman buffs. I said this before somewhere but the only caster/priest class that is potentially WORSE for this group is Wizard. I honestly think literally every other caster/priest would be preferable to shaman for this specific group makeup.

I like how we went back to Ixiblat and WW dragons being the only thing a shaman is better for. Just stick to that argument DSM. It's the best one you've got. The best 4 caster/priest group solely for ixiblat and ww dragons probably includes shaman. The rest of it is just plain bullshit. Nobody is basing their group comp for the entire 1-60 process just so they can do ixi and ww slightly better and ignoring 99% of the rest of the lvl 60 content.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am applying DSM logic.

A). The mage does more than double the damage of the shaman. We don’t need that extra dps so let’s take redundant utility.

B) a focused dps druid will put out 80-90% of a shamans dps in nukes and adds DS along with a ton of utility. Some is redundant but lots of it is not.

Therefore druid is actually better than a shaman in this group!

Again. I we’re playing along and have hopped aboard the DSM thought-train. (Choo choo!)

A) Glad you agree we don't need the extra DPS.

B) This is where you run into trouble. A Shaman offers more than a Druid. It is why Shamans can solo way more camps than a Druid can. So no, this isn't correct. Don't you find it odd that the best class in the game (Enchanter) is also the best soloer? Shamans also happen to be a top tier soloer. Coincidence?

[PlsNoBan]

A Shaman offers more than a Druid

Not in this group it doesn't. By itself? Sure. I forgot you don't understand the difference between soloing and grouping.

[Crede]

A) Glad you agree we don't need the extra DPS.

B) This is where you run into trouble. A Shaman offers more than a Druid. It is why Shamans can solo way more camps than a Druid can. So no, this isn't correct. Don't you find it odd that the best class in the game (Enchanter) is also the best soloer? Shamans also happen to be a top tier soloer. Coincidence?

It is clear from point B that DSM has no understanding of solo vs group dynamics. It's either completely noobish, or a trolling, or both? Myself and others have pointed this out many times.

Please nobody continue down this path with him(except cyx, because I love reading your posts)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not in this group it doesn't. By itself? Sure. I forgot you don't understand the difference between soloing and grouping.

No, you don't understand the difference, which is why you think DPS changes in a group if the group is playing correctly. If another player isn't affecting your DPS negatively, your solo and group DPS will match. Obviously you can get buffs in a group, but if you had those buff solo, the DPS would be the same again.

If you take the top two solo classes and put them in a duo, you open up all of the camp options that both an Enchanter and a Shaman can do by themselves, which is a large portion of the game. Being in a group also opens up camps that you cannot do solo.

This is why the Shaman/Enchanter/Monk trio is so strong. All three are top solo classes. Monk is the weakest of the three, but it is still the strongest melee-only soloing class. Put them together, and you are easily doing all the camps that any of them could do solo, and more.

You honestly don't need as much DPS and CHing as you think lol. This game really isn't that hard, and most mobs are tuned for players with gear below what P99ers typically have due to the server being in stasis. That is why the DPS breakpoints aren't that hard to hit. Everybody knows everything, and are typically over geared.

[PlsNoBan]

Shaman/Enchanter/Monk trio is so strong

You're the only person I've ever seen praise this trio so much. It's not one that is particularly popular in my experience. People either run Monk/Shaman which is a great duo or Enchanter/Cleric which is probably the strongest overall duo in the game. Monk/Shaman is better in certain situations though for sure. Have no problem admitting this. Seems kinda weird to shoehorn an enchanter into a monk/shaman duo. I'm sure it works fine. Not sure I'd call it the best trio though. Charm pets at endgame have like 8k hp. It's a lot to heal with torpor (I know I've done it) and it directly nerfs your groups damage by a pretty significant amount. A cleric would easily be a better choice here since the enchanter can slow and has all the CC you'd ever need.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're the only person I've ever seen praise this trio so much. It's not one that is particularly popular in my experience. People either run Monk/Shaman which is a great duo or Enchanter/Cleric which is probably the strongest overall duo in the game. Monk/Shaman is better in certain situations though for sure. Have no problem admitting this. Seems kinda weird to shoehorn an enchanter into a monk/shaman duo. I'm sure it works fine. Not sure I'd call it the best trio though. Charm pets at endgame have like 8k hp. It's a lot to heal with torpor and it directly nerfs your groups damage by a pretty significant amount. A cleric would easily be a better choice here since the enchanter can slow and has all the CC you'd ever need.

The Enchanter offers the amazing CC to get into camps that require things like lull. Obviously they have their great charmed pet for DPS too. This covers for the weakness of the Shaman, which is no lulls and no mez. Not every camp is simply rootable for splitting purposes.

The Shaman offers a wide range of spells, and the ability to Torpor/slow tank mobs. This covers the weakness of the Enchanter, which is they cannot always charm well due to mob levels in the zone. Torpor and slow is more than sufficient for any content a trio would be doing mitigation-wise.

The Monk offers the ability to FD, offers good white damage DPS, and ability to tank. This covers the weakness of both the Enchanter and Shaman of not being able to single pull certain camps due to not having FD.

Put them together and you have a group that does high DPS, while being able to do basically any camp a trio could do. The only thing you are missing here is res and teleport. But if the players are experienced, as we keep claiming, then you can easily cover these by buying reses, buying ports, or making pocket characters to cover these deficiencies.

[PlsNoBan]

The Enchanter offers the amazing CC to get into camps that require things like lull. Obviously they have their great charmed pet for DPS too. They cover for the weakness of the Shaman, which is no lulls. Not every camp is simply rootable for CC.

The Shaman offers a wide range of spells, and the ability to Torpor/slow tank mobs. They cover the weakness of the Enchanter, which is they cannot always charm due to mob levels in the zone. Torpor and slow is more than sufficient for any content a trio would be doing.

The Monk offers the ability to FD, offers good white damage DPS, and ability to tank. This covers the weakness of both the Enchanter and Shaman of not being able to single pull certain camps due to not having FD.

Put them together and you have a group that does high DPS, while being able to do basically any camp a trio could do. The only thing you are missing here is res and teleport. But if the players are experienced, as we keep claiming, then you can easily cover these by buying reses, buying ports, or making pocket characters to cover them instead.

Yeah I understand EverQuest DSM. I just explained that enc/clr and mnk/shm are 2 of the strongest duos in the game. I just don't typically see people mashing them together in this way and this trio never stuck out to me as particularly popular or talked about as the best trio or anything of the sort. I'm sure this trio is plenty strong and capable of most any content that is trio-able. I don't think a non biased sane person could or would argue that a cleric is probably a better option to go with enc/mnk than shaman though. The charm is doing the lion's share of the DPS and tanking and CH is honestly just miles better than torpor for maintaining charms. There's not really any argument about this from people that don't have an unrealistic borderline unhealthy view on the shaman class for whatever reason.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah I understand EverQuest DSM. I just explained that enc/clr and mnk/shm are 2 of the strongest duos in the game. I just don't typically see people mashing them together in this way and this trio never stuck out to me as particularly popular or talked about as the best trio or anything of the sort. I'm sure this trio is plenty strong and capable of most any content that is trio-able. I don't think a non biased sane person could or would argue that a cleric is probably a better option to go with enc/mnk than shaman though. The charm is doing the lion's share of the DPS and tanking and CH is honestly just miles better than torpor for maintaining charms. There's not really any argument about this from people that don't have an unrealistic borderline obsessive love for shaman for whatever reason.

I disagree. CH is nice for the pets, but it doesn't allow you to do camps that Enchanters cannot do, like West Waste Dragons. You can still do those with Torpor, CH isn't needed.

You are putting far too much emphasis on CHing pets. With a Shaman's 75% slow your pet isn't going to be taking a ton of damage, so Torpor is fine for healing. Why do you think Shamans can Torpor/Slow tank really hard mobs? The same logic applies, only the person/pet tanking the mob differs. If anything it is better when a charmed pet is tanking, because a charmed pet is going to tank better than a Shaman. They will have more dodge/riposte/parry, and NPC AC works a bit different than player AC.

And if you don't want to lose DPS on the Charmed pet via occasional Torporing, the Shaman or Monk can tank instead.

[PlsNoBan]

I disagree. CH is nice for the pets, but it doesn't allow you to do camps that Enchanters cannot do, like West Waste Dragons. You can still do those with Torpor, CH isn't needed.

You are putting far too much emphasis on CHing pets. With a Shaman's 75% slow your pet isn't going to be taking a ton of damage, so Torpor is fine for healing. Why do you think Shamans can Torpor/Slow tank really hard mobs? The same logic applies, only the person/pet tanking the mob differs. If anything it is better when a charmed pet is tanking, because a charmed pet is going to tank better than a Shaman. They will have more dodge/riposte/parry, and NPC AC works a bit different than player AC.

Why exactly could Shm/Mnk/Enc do WW dragons and Clr/Mnk/Enc could not? More than likely the monk would end up tanking and the enchanter can slow. The cleric can objectively output more healing than shaman. Their HoT is pretty close if not the same healing as torpor and doesn't reduce DPS. Their single target direct heals (without even mentioning CH) are way way better. The enchanter isn't doing much either way most likely. What makes shaman so important here? 5% more slow? Get fuckin real kiddo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why exactly could Shm/Mnk/Enc do WW dragons and Clr/Mnk/Enc could not? More than likely the monk would end up tanking and the enchanter can slow. The cleric can objectively output more healing than shaman. The enchanter isn't doing much either way most likely. What makes shaman so important here? 5% more slow? Get fuckin real kiddo.

There are some camps that Enchanters cannot do due to how charm works. West Waste Dragons are an example of this, because they have an AoE dispel + damage.

Cleric/Monk/Enchanter will struggle with this because the Enchanter is going to have a hard time keeping up their pet due to the dispel, and they are going to be taking AoE damage. The Cleric's 10 second Complete Heal works against them, because they need to heal multiple people at the same time due to AoE damage. The Cleric can use Celestial Elixir obviously, but it isn't as efficient as Torpor or Complete Heal. Celestial Elixir is 300 mana for 1200 HP (4 hp per mana) vs Torpor which is 1200-1500 HP (depending on the tick) for 200 mana (6-7.5 hp per mana).

Shamans can solo WW Dragons already. They can maintain healing multiple players more efficiently due to Torpor being superior to Celestial Elixir, and they have Cannibalize to recover mana faster during the fight. They can Slow the mob easier via Malo and they have a better Slow. This means mitigation is more efficient, on top of their healing being more efficient.

[Keebz]

There are some camps that Enchanters cannot do due to how charm works. West Waste Dragons are an example of this, because they have an AoE dispel + damage.

Enchanters can solo WW dragons just fine. Bury the charm, rune yourself, bam.

Most people just use the water to block the AoE's, but I believe that's against the rules so I can't condone it.

[slard271]

... snip ... I said this before somewhere but the only caster/priest class that is potentially WORSE for this group is Wizard. ... snip ...

My wizard has an EoN, epic, white dragonscale boots, a cazic brain, a manna robe, and a rend robe so basically FT11 plus clicky nukes and ghetto canni. I could probably give this a run for the money. But first I had to get an EoN, epic, white dragonscale boots, a cazic brain, a manna robe, and a rend robe. But I mean that's just my pocket wiz hehe. :D

[slard271]

...snip... due to Torpor being superior to Celestial Elixir ...snip...

Just sayin' but this is pretty darn subjective, imo. There are pretty hardcore tradeoffs between CE and torp than just mana efficiency. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise, but that's par for the course at this point.

[PlsNoBan]

Just sayin' but this is pretty darn subjective, imo. There are pretty hardcore tradeoffs between CE and torp than just mana efficiency. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise, but that's par for the course at this point.

He has yet to acknowledge the disadvantages of torpor (or anything shaman related really) so yeah. Not surprising. I kinda wish I loved anything in life as much as DSM loves everquest shamans.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just sayin' but this is pretty darn subjective, imo. There are pretty hardcore tradeoffs between CE and torp than just mana efficiency. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise, but that's par for the course at this point.

It's not subjective at all to look at how much HP you get per mana on a healing spell. That is quite objective in fact.

He has yet to acknowledge the disadvantages of torpor (or anything shaman related really) so yeah. Not surprising. I kinda wish I loved anything in life as much as DSM loves everquest shamans.

I didn't deny the disadvantages at all. Torpor is 6-7.5 HP per mana, which is better than CE and honestly about even with CH when in a party with non-raid geared players. You are generally not healing more than 3000 HP on a player that isn't a raid geared warrior, which is 7.5 HP per mana. Torpor is a very efficient spell, especially when combined with Cannibalize.

The groups I have been in have yet to run into a DPS issue when they are being Torpored. You just have to be a bit strategic about when you do it. That is the beauty of slowing the mobs. You aren't taking damage that fast, which means you also don't have to be healed as fast.

It really sounds like you guys haven't been grouped with a Torpor Shaman that often.

[Karanis]

18789

[Troxx]

I made the druid argument earlier in this thread somewhere. Don't care to dig for it. Druid is a WAY better option than shaman if animals are available to charm. It's not even a contest in a zone like Chardok. Likely better even without charm. In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that "safety" is needed beyond 2 encs and a cleric. Druid direct healing is as good/better? Torpor isn't an emergency heal for when shit hits the fan. Druid also has the option of evac. Their utility has less overlap with the existing group and their buffs are better for casters than shaman buffs.

I’ll be honest with you. Following DSM logic the druid is actually the better choice over shaman for anything that isn’t WW Dragons (which we all know a shaman can solo) or Ixblatthefckx which is not what this game is built around. Following DSM logic there is no argument. Druids heal as good or better in emergencies, have plenty of Cc, can nuke better than shamans, POTG is sexy sauce, free unlimited group regen, DS, succor, ports …

Following DSM logic shamans are a solid 5th place out of 6 for who you want to fill that 4th slot.


Thankfully I am not DSM. DPS is not irrelevant. Shamans remain 4th of 6.

But …. Let us cackle while we watch DSM talk himself out of this corner.

General consensus = mage necro or a 3rd ench
DSM logic = shaman is even worse and is replaced by a damn druid

Best 4 man all caster setup doesn’t include a shaman.

So sorry.

[Troxx]

8 pages until …

https://c.tenor.com/4RxpgANEJkcAAAAC/leonidas-300.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When you can't disprove facts and logic, you go back to the trolling. It's so easy to tell when you have been beat.

[slard271]

It's not subjective at all to look at how much HP you get per mana on a healing spell. That is quite objective in fact.

You're right. Hence the part of my sentence that read: "...than just mana efficiency." It definitely is objective, so is all the rest of the baggage that comes along with torp, cast time, groupage (yes, I realize not an issue in this fantasy scenario), slow, snare. Not to mention the fact that the class that can cast CE can also cast a COMPLETE FUCKING HEAL. But we don't likeses that so we sweep it under the rug and doctor the scenario up with pocket toons, root rotting everything in a three mile radius; and don't get me started on poor Ixiblat Fer. Somehow, as the equivalent of p99 Godwin's law, we will personally hold Detoxx responsible for Shaman not being the sole class responsible for all group DPS henceforth.

What I sincerely (for super realsy honestly) find mind boggling in this thread is literally everyone is saying Shaman is awesome and OP and comes in as maybe #3 or 4 in this fantasy land group but that's not good enough because delete-all-classes-except-shaman. Your boner for shaman is astounding. And again, I have no skin in the game other than somehow getting wrapped up in this retardedness because I guess boredom. Despite your wikipedia links to logical fallacies, it can, in fact, be the case that, well... I dunno... you're just wrong no matter what The Cherrypicked Data with solo'ing versus group composition tells you, Dr. DSM. All that said, <3 and see you at the next raid, brotha.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're right. Hence the part of my sentence that read: "...than just mana efficiency." It definitely is objective, so is all the rest of the baggage that comes along with torp, cast time, groupage (yes, I realize not an issue in this fantasy scenario), slow, snare. Not to mention the fact that the class that can cast CE can also cast a COMPLETE FUCKING HEAL. But we don't likeses that so we sweep it under the rug and doctor the scenario up with pocket toons, root rotting everything in a three mile radius; and don't get me started on poor Ixiblat Fer. Somehow, as the equivalent of p99 Godwin's law, we will personally hold Detoxx responsible for Shaman not being the sole class responsible for all group DPS henceforth.

What I sincerely (for super realsy honestly) find mind boggling in this thread is literally everyone is saying Shaman is awesome and OP and comes in as maybe #3 or 4 in this fantasy land group but that's not good enough because delete-all-classes-except-shaman. Your boner for shaman is astounding. And again, I have no skin in the game other than somehow getting wrapped up in this retardedness because I guess boredom. Despite your wikipedia links to logical fallacies, it can, in fact, be the case that, well... I dunno... you're just wrong no matter what The Cherrypicked Data with solo'ing versus group composition tells you, Dr. DSM. All that said, <3 and see you at the next raid, brotha.

I never made the argument that other classes are bad or should be deleted. That is just another strawman lol. You are simply making stuff up because you think you can "win" against me.

You can win. Prove your points with facts and logic, not silliness.

[Troxx]

I’ll be honest with you. Following DSM logic the druid is actually the better choice over shaman for anything that isn’t WW Dragons (which we all know a shaman can solo) or Ixblatthefckx which is not what this game is built around. Following DSM logic there is no argument. Druids heal as good or better in emergencies, have plenty of Cc, can nuke better than shamans, POTG is sexy sauce, free unlimited group regen, DS, succor, ports …

Following DSM logic shamans are a solid 5th place out of 6 for who you want to fill that 4th slot.


Thankfully I am not DSM. DPS is not irrelevant. Shamans remain 4th of 6.

But …. Let us cackle while we watch DSM talk himself out of this corner.

General consensus = mage necro or a 3rd ench
DSM logic = shaman is even worse and is replaced by a damn druid

Best 4 man all caster setup doesn’t include a shaman.

So sorry.

[cyxthryth]

silliness

I pointed out that you were simply calling others and/or others' posts "silly" (rather than backing up your points/position/claim/"argument"[s] with relevant, objectively factual data) when I joined this discussion on Page 74, and you are still - seemingly, apparently - calling others and/or others' posts "silly" on page 292.

For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "silly"/ "silliness" are you using? :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

The current data is as follows for anybody who has forgotten what DSM has said:


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why his posts would seem to indicate that he believes doing so is not an example of him moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling.

Who are you talking to? Your imaginary friends?

You think this is supposed to make you look more mature? Because you're sorely mistaken.

[Troxx]

DSM just copies and pastes when backed into a corner.

Cool.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM just copies and pastes when backed into a corner.

Cool.

No, there just isn't any point in replying to trolls after a certain period. You still haven't proven anything, even after I attempt to converse with you again.

It's always the same. You make a few points that are easily disproven, and then you go back to trolling. So the only thing left to do is post the conversation again, and hope you can do something other than trolling.

[PlsNoBan]

Ooh another copy pasta. DSM gettin real close to 1k posts guys.

[Gloomlord]

I marvel at this man's insanity. How can one keep this up for so long, even when his arguments are torn to pieces?

I guess Watchmen was correct: humanity will only ever unite when faced with a common foe. And this foe is an irrational lunatic...

What's there at stake anymore for you, DSM? Your pride? There is no dignity in acting like a child.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I marvel at this man's insanity. How can one keep this up for so long, even when his arguments are torn to pieces?

I guess Watchmen was correct: humanity will only ever unite when faced with a common foe. And this foe is an irrational lunatic...

What's there at stake anymore for you, DSM? Your pride? There is no dignity in acting like a child.

Trolling isn't an argument. Posting memes/insults/trolls/sarcasm isn't furthering the conversation.

If you can prove I am wrong, I will happily admit I am wrong. I honestly don't care. Thus far you haven't proven anything other than you like to rage post.

But I will not allow trolls to rule the conversation because they want to shut down any conversation they disagree with.

You think ganging up on somebody and trolling them ceaselessly is a valid strategy. It is not, and it doesn't work.

The only pride at stake are the trolls who can't let this go. If you think I am wrong, stop posting. Obviously you think there is at least some truth to what I am saying, or you wouldn't be so threatened by what I have to say.

[Gloomlord]

You keep telling yourself that, DSM.

Maybe you'll start believing your own lies?

By the way: don't you see that saying "happily" is just an indicator of how dishonest you are? You do "honestly" care. You are a complete liar and a coward.

Swallowing your own pride is not a happy occurrence for anyone.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You keep telling yourself that, DSM.

Maybe you'll start believing your own lies?

By the way: don't you see that saying "happily" is just an indicator of how dishonest you are? You do "honestly" care. You are a complete liar and a coward.

Swallowing your own pride is not a happy occurrence for anyone.

Look at that pride talking.

If you don't care, just stop posting and laugh at my supposed ignorance.

The only person who is obviously emotionally attached is yourself. It is why you keep calling me names. You just can't let go.

If you want me to stop talking, back up your points with evidence and facts. Not silly rage posts.

[Gloomlord]

Look at that pride talking.

If you don't care, just stop posting and laugh at my supposed ignorance.

The only person who is obviously emotionally attached is yourself. It is why you keep calling me names. You just can't let go.

If you want me to stop talking, back up your points with evidence and facts. Not silly rage posts.

Funny how you completely ignored my point about you being "happy", right?

It's almost like...you know I'm right about you.

Don't throw stones in glass houses, manchild.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Look at that pride talking.

If you don't care, just stop posting and laugh at my supposed ignorance.

The only person who is obviously emotionally attached is yourself. It is why you keep calling me names. You just can't let go.

If you want me to stop talking, back up your points with evidence and facts. Not silly rage posts.

[cyxthryth]

No, there just isn't any point in replying to trolls after a certain period.

You have not provided the definition of "troll" that you are using. Would you be willing to define this term that you are using to label others' posts, and the content of their posts, for the sake of civil discussion? :)

You still haven't proven anything, even after I attempt to converse with you again.

Haven't proven anything? :)

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which you cannot refute, and which is self evident - of you attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into your "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is proof that you have accused others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to that attempt in which I point out to you the irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - that you that you yourself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened your argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with you hehe :):

Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

You - of course - did not reply, but have continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that you are using, and whilst providing zero evidence to support your claims of my being a troll/trolling hehe. :)



So the only thing left to do is post the conversation again, and hope you can do something other than trolling. Trolling isn't an argument. Posting memes/insults/trolls/sarcasm isn't furthering the conversation.

Again, as I have stated to you previously in this reply (and previous replies) - you have not provided the definition of "troll" that you are using. Would you be willing to define this term that you are using to label others' posts, and the content of their posts, for the sake of civil discussion? :)


But I will not allow trolls to rule the conversation because they want to shut down any conversation they disagree with.

You think ganging up on somebody and trolling them ceaselessly is a valid strategy. It is not.

Again, as I have stated to you previously in this reply (and previous replies) - you have not provided the definition of "troll" that you are using. Would you be willing to define this term that you are using to label others' posts, and the content of their posts, for the sake of civil discussion? :)

[Gloomlord]

Ah, so you admit I'm right about you through ignoring the content of my post?

Glad to hear it. Thank you for the confirmation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah, so you admit I'm right about you through ignoring the content of my post?

Glad to hear it. Thank you for the confirmation.

No, your rage posts are simply meaningless. I will say it again:

Look at that pride talking.

If you don't care, just stop posting and laugh at my supposed ignorance.

The only person who is obviously emotionally attached is yourself. It is why you keep calling me names. You just can't let go.

If you want me to stop talking, back up your points with evidence and facts. Not silly rage posts.

[Gloomlord]

Well, we know you're a liar, but regardless:

If I am "rage posting" -- what makes you think I'm the only one?

Most people here have regarded you with a mixture of mocking humour and utter contempt. Why single me out, specifically?

There's no point trying to engage intellectually with someone of your..."calibre".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, we know you're a liar, but regardless:

If I am "rage posting" -- what makes you think I'm the only one?

Most people here have regarded you with a mixture of mocking humour and utter contempt. Why single me out, specifically?

There's no point trying to engage intellectually with someone of your..."calibre".

If there's no point engaging, stop posting.

Obviously you think what I am saying isn't wrong, or you wouldn't be threatened by it.

[cyxthryth]

Look at that pride talking.

We are not "talking" - we are making posts on a forum thread hehe. :)

If you don't care, just stop posting and laugh at my supposed ignorance.

Why does your post seem to indicate that you believe that if someone "doesn't care" about something - which you did not define in the Quoted post above hehe :) - that they should for some (undefined) reason "stop posting" and "laugh" at any particular thing, or do any other particular thing that you think/believe/claim they should "if they don't care"?

The only person who is obviously emotionally attached is yourself. It is why you keep calling me names. You just can't let go.

So, for the sake of civil discussion, what is the reason you keep calling me names and making - unsubstantiated, false - accusations of me being a "troll" (which you have not defined, and which you have provided zero evidence to support your claim of me being) hehe? :)

If you want me to stop talking, back up your points with evidence and facts. Not silly rage posts.

I do not want you to start talking, quite the contrary! :) I want you to back up your point(s) if - you have any - with evidence and facts. Not simply to call others' posts "silly" or "trolling" without defining what you mean or providing evidence to support your position/claim/"argument"(s).

As I have already stated to you, it is not always clear to other posters just exactly what particular position/stance/claim/"argument"(s) you are attempting to defend at any given time - due to how often you have moved goalposts - so, for the sake of civil discussion, please let us know what your current stance is and what - factual, relevant - evidence you have provided that supports it. It really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

I'm glad someone like Troxx injects humour into an otherwise painfully futile debate with someone who does not care about objective truth.

If shamans truly were better than mage at DPS, why would I be any more upset about it than the fact enchanter is a disgustingly overpowered class? I know this game is imbalanced.

The thing is, though: you're not right, DSM. Mage is a better group DPS than shaman.

And why is this so difficult for you to admit? Shaman is an overall more powerful and more interesting class than mage. Noone here debates this. You can't concede over something so innocuous?

What is wrong with you?!

[cyxthryth]

If there's no point engaging, stop posting.

Obviously you think what I am saying isn't wrong, or you wouldn't be threatened by it.

The problem with your post is that it seems to indicate/reveal/betray/expose that you - for some strange reason - believe that it is obvious to you what others think, and/or when they are threatened. You have provided zero evidence to support this claim/position/stance/"argument", and thus it is unsubstantiated (and likely false) hehe. :)

If you are interested in civil discussion rather than an "argument", you might consider backing up your points with relevant, factual data instead of attempting to tell other posters what to do as if you believe that you have some - or any - authority over them hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

We are not "talking" - we are making posts on a forum thread hehe. :)

To be fair here, Cyx, it's just a figure of speech. Much like calling the non-digital world the "real world", even though the digital world is also the "real world".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm glad someone like Troxx injects humour into an otherwise painfully futile debate with someone who does not care about objective truth.

If shamans truly were better than mage at DPS, why would I be any more upset about it than the fact enchanter is a disgustingly overpowered class? I know this game is imbalanced.

The thing is, though: you're not right, DSM. Mage is a better group DPS than shaman.

And why is this so difficult for you to admit? Shaman is an overall more powerful and more interesting class than mage. Noone here debates this. You can't concede over something so innocuous?

What is wrong with you?!

Nobody has argued Mages aren't a DPS class. The question is how much their DPS matters when looking at a four man group.

I am not sure where this strawman came from that I said Shamans are better at DPS in all situations or something.

[Gloomlord]

We have proven it! What...?

What do you think those mage logs were all about?

You even admitted they did more damage -- just that shaman still had more worth in the long run. I thought that's what the debate was all about?

Keep your story straight, you manipulative sociopath.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We have proven it! What...?

What do you think those mage logs were all about?

You even admitted they did more damage -- just that shaman still had more worth in the long run. I thought that's what the debate was all about?

Keep your story straight, you manipulative sociopath.

You missed my edit, I misread your post:

Nobody has argued Mages aren't a DPS class. The question is how much their DPS matters when looking at a four man group.

I am not sure where this strawman came from that I said Shamans are better at DPS in all situations or something.

[cyxthryth]

You missed my edit, I misread your post:

Nobody has argued Mages aren't a DPS class. The question is how much their DPS matters when looking at a four man group.

I am not sure where this strawman came from that I said Shamans are better at DPS in all situations or something.

As I have already stated to you, it is not always clear to other posters just exactly what particular position/stance/claim/"argument"(s) you are attempting to defend at any given time - due to how often you have moved goalposts and edited your posts - so, for the sake of civil discussion, please let us know what your current stance is and what - factual, relevant - evidence you have provided that supports it. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

And we told you, ad nauseam, that shaman utility is redundant.

Maybe it's time for you to stop fucking stealth editing if it's becoming a problem?

Also, why did you say "prove it" to begin with? Why didn't you say "Yeah, mages are better DPS, but they're not better in this group."?

Look at you backpeddle so furiously! What is wrong with you, man? This is just depressing at this point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And we told you, ad nauseam, that shaman utility is redundant.

Maybe it's time for you to stop fucking stealth editing if it's becoming a problem?

Also, why did you say "prove it" to begin with? Why didn't you say "Yeah, mages are better DPS, but they're not better in this group."?

Look at you backpeddle so furiously! What is wrong with you, man? This is just depressing at this point.

I just made a mistake and thought you said "Mages are the better group class". You need to calm down lol. It is not my fault you are refreshing the page every 2 seconds in the hopes I respond.

The problem is you haven't shown the Shaman's utility is less useful than the Mage's DPS.

However, I have shown a Mage's DPS isn't giving you any more kills per hour. The math is still true.

Right now, the data shows Shaman Utility > DPS when DPS is giving you 0 extra kills per hour in a session.

Having better safety and more camp options is better than useless DPS.

[Gloomlord]

No...

I said, clearly, "better group DPS", and even said "shamans are an overall more useful and interesting class".

How could you misread that and arrogantly say "prove it"?!?!

You need to calm down lol

Hark at the pot calling the kettle black.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No...

I said, clearly, "better group DPS", and even said "shamans are an overall more useful and interesting class".

How could you misread that and arrogantly say "prove it"?!?!



Hark at the pot calling the kettle black.

Unlike yourself, I can admit when I made a mistake. I simply read your sentence wrong.

I am sorry you are refreshing every two seconds, so you won't get to see my final post.

You probably need to take a break.

I am going where the data leads, and right now the Mage simply isn't offering any more kills per hour. Nobody has been able to show any other benefit to DPS other than kills per hour and safety. Shamans cover the safety part and offer more camp options. I am really not sure why this is such a problem.

[Gloomlord]

I doubt you "made a mistake" here in the way you're framing it. It's rather more likely your thinly veiled attempts at trolling backfired upon you, rather than you "misreading".

If we didn't need another hint at your disgusting behaviour, then I guess you can just melt this one down and add it to the others.

[Troxx]

Nobody has argued Mages aren't a DPS class. The question is how much their DPS matters when looking at a four man group.

Answer: it’s a whole heck of a lot more than a dps shaman

[PlsNoBan]

Guys shamans can do ixiblat and ww dragons. Definitely makes the most sense to base your entire group 1-60 around that. Don't you understand?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I doubt you "made a mistake" here in the way you're framing it. It's rather more likely your thinly veiled attempts at trolling backfired upon you, rather than you "misreading".

If we didn't need another hint at your disgusting behaviour, then I guess you can just melt this one down and add it to the others.

This is what I am talking about. You are rage posting. You have no intention of acting like a rational human being here.

You need to take a break. You aren't forwarding the conversation, and you just can't let this go.

If you want me to stop posting, you need to bring some evidence, instead of just rage.

Guys shamans can do ixiblat and ww dragons. Definitely makes the most sense to base your entire group 1-60 around that. Don't you understand?

I said on page 1 if you want to focus more on the 1-60 leveling a Mage is better. I am looking at the entire play experience, including level 60 item farming. I am not sure what the problem here is lol.

I just think it isn't wise to focus too hard on leveling 1-60, because a 4 man caster group is going to power through that really fast anyway.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/-xd2i1TKJC8AAAAC/nosleepgang-squad.gif

4 more pages!

#300

[cyxthryth]

I am going where the data leads

What - relevant to this discussion - data might that be?

As I have already stated to you, it is not always clear to other posters just exactly what particular position/stance/claim/"argument"(s) you are attempting to defend at any given time - due to how often you have moved goalposts and edited your posts - so, for the sake of civil discussion, please let us know what your current stance is and what - factual, relevant - evidence you have provided that supports it. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

and right now the Mage simply isn't offering any more kills per hour. Nobody has been able to show any other benefit to DPS other than kills per hour and safety.

More/higher DPS offers faster kill times, and this has already been stated to you multiple times by multiple posters. Ignoring it will not make it go away hehe. :)

Shamans cover the safety part and offer more camp options. I am really not sure why this is such a problem.

The problem - which has already been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters in this thread - would be that much of what the Shaman offers is largely redundant in a group that already has sufficient safety in the form of Cleric & Enchanter Crowd Control including the ability to Mez, AOE Mez, Stun, AOE Stun, Root, Pacify, AOE Pacify, and Memblur/Atone, Enchanter hp shields like Rune spells or Berserker Spirit/Bedlam, and Cleric Healing, Buffs & Rez. I am not really sure why your posts seemingly - repeatedly - attempt to ignore this hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

This is what I am talking about. You are rage posting. You have no intention of acting like a rational human being here.

You need to take a break. You aren't forwarding the conversation, and you just can't let this go.

If you want me to stop posting, you need to bring some evidence, instead of just rage.



I said on page 1 if you want to focus more on the 1-60 leveling a Mage is better. I am looking at the entire play experience, including level 60 item farming. I am not sure what the problem here is lol.

I just think it isn't wise to focus too hard on leveling 1-60, because a 4 man caster group is going to power through that really fast anyway.

DSM: "Oh, shit! He's onto me! Uh uh uh, what do I think of? Oh yeah! Rage posting! Brilliant!"

https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/30c5b72b4eaf6940371d2fe17bdfb2e6b8c17a8d/2019/05/22/1b710a6b-5f4d-4987-a046-c23674b221a3/picard-meme-facepalm.jpg?auto=webp&width=1200

[Gloomlord]

Answer: it’s a whole heck of a lot more than a dps shaman

DSM: "PROVE IT!"

What an idiot!

[Troxx]

Requiem for the sane:

No class is broken. Some like Druids and wizards suffer more than most. Shamans are BETTER than most … MOST of the time.

But this thread is thrifty! It is obscene! It makes us battle to the death choosing the best of FOUR amongst a sea of greatness!

Unfortunately we have DSM. He needs help. ABA? Yes! Autism dating services for adults? Yes if he wants. No if he prefers his sock.

What are we to do?

I am at a loss…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Troxx]

DSM:

https://c.tenor.com/YQv2NMgnGmoAAAAC/tom-hanks-forrest-gump.gif

How can we help this lil guy?

[Gloomlord]

DSM:

https://c.tenor.com/YQv2NMgnGmoAAAAC/tom-hanks-forrest-gump.gif

How can we help this lil guy?

"I am not a smart man...but I know what trolling is" -- DSM.

[Troxx]

3 more pages!! We (DSM) can do it !!

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/BlMFaBwU9LAAAAAd/spartans-what-is-your-profession-300.gif

[Troxx]

C’mon DSM we can make forum history!

300 pages of BS!

C’mon man you’re so invested… don’t let us down now!

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/lOcgB4s9zKsAAAAC/300-spartans.gif

[Gloomlord]

Just wait for him to say: "Just ignore all those people who rightfully called me out on my bullshit! You, mysterious silent readers, are whom I'm writing this for!"

He couldn't be a more conceited little shit if he tried...

[Troxx]

Just wait for him to say: "Just ignore all those people who rightfully called me out on my bullshit! You, mysterious silent readers, are whom I'm writing this for!"

He couldn't be a more conceited little shit if he tried...

https://c.tenor.com/Gae_inf6mQsAAAAC/300-shields-ready.gif

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

The problem with your post is that it simply does not contain any evidence or data of your Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence it is irrelevant. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

While you are - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data, I have irrefutable proof of the following, which you have as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which you cannot refute, and which is self evident - of you attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into your "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which you cannot refute, and which is self evident - that you attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to that attempt in which I point out to you the irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - that you that you yourself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened your argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with you hehe. :)


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, you - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and you have continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that you are using (nor what you meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support your claims of my being a troll/trolling. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/qd8u7sk3q38AAAAC/dance-ruso.gif

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/Bjl7ODz6nZwAAAAd/qanon-buffalo.gif

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/IszNeyDXC5oAAAAC/chissing-chisholm.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Troxx]

DSM went to sleep.

I too must slumber.

We will press on to 300 tomorrow me hearties!

Yarrrr (pirates)

[cyxthryth]

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, DSM - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

Hehe. :)

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/fy0srgR_KawAAAAd/ps5-300.gif

[Troxx]

#300

[Gloomlord]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

What did I just say?

At best, this is trolling. At worst, this is complete and utter stupidity.

Pick your poison!

[Troxx]

He wants the nonexistent folk to ignore everyone but him

[Troxx]

We can do it! Page 300!

https://c.tenor.com/ecwBO-mLnKcAAAAC/300-spartans.gif

[Troxx]

Don’t flake out on us now DSM…

We are so close to 300 pages of dumpster fire!!

Legendary forum status is yours for the taking!

Let. Us. Finish. This.


#300

[PlsNoBan]

"Attention everyone that reads this thread: You're all trolls and you should be ignored but I'm going to keep posting anyway for some reason. I am the smartest ogre alive and I say shamans are the best class for everything in every situation and circumstance. Also warriors solo better than enchanters and if anyone asks me what the best 4 man group is I tell them its a 5 man group. I calculated all of this using data and math and my vast ogre brainpower. If you want a mentally unstable shaman in your group that's bad at the game and wipes all the time and root rots adds off to the side of camp for some reason then I'M YOUR GUY." - DSM 2022

[Troxx]

"Attention everyone that reads this thread: You're all trolls and you should be ignored but I'm going to keep posting anyway for some reason. I am the smartest ogre alive and I say shamans are the best class for everything in every situation and circumstance. Also warriors solo better than enchanters and if anyone asks me what the best 4 man group is I tell them its a 5 man group. I calculated all of this using data and math and my vast ogre brainpower. If you want a mentally unstable shaman in your group that's bad at the game and wipes all the time and root rots adds off to the side of camp for some reason then I'M YOUR GUY." - DSM 2022

https://c.tenor.com/fLVgv1qZt-AAAAAC/lmao-spit-take.gif

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/Cdl0FgZUZ6kAAAAd/doug-maclean-mac.gif

[cyxthryth]

"Attention everyone that reads this thread: You're all trolls and you should be ignored but I'm going to keep posting anyway for some reason. I am the smartest ogre alive and I say shamans are the best class for everything in every situation and circumstance. Also warriors solo better than enchanters and if anyone asks me what the best 4 man group is I tell them its a 5 man group. I calculated all of this using data and math and my vast ogre brainpower. If you want a mentally unstable shaman in your group that's bad at the game and wipes all the time and root rots adds off to the side of camp for some reason then I'M YOUR GUY." - DSM 2022

LOL

Check out the below Quote, which is in reference to me:

I didn't block him. I have never blocked a single user. I always believe people can redeem themselves.

But his post history shows how silly he is. He had 3 posts when he started trolling on this thread, and now he is up to 80 hehe.

DSM 2022: I have not blocked him. I believe people can redeem themselves.
DSM 2022: He is silly/trolling *ignores 99% of my posts*

Hehe. :)

[Troxx]

Good night. I apologize that I will miss page 300. Pretend I am here and imagine infinite 300 GIFs in my honor.

But I gotta sleep…

[tadkins]

I'm just of the opinion that none of this should matter. It's a 20+ year old game that's beyond conquered. There's no need for this level of debate or min-maxing.

Just invite the two druids, wizard and rogue that's all LFG, c'mon!

Oh wow, this thread still going huh. All discussion theory aside, our Necro, Mage, Shaman, Enchanter is doing great. Even added a wizard to leech some exp along the way.

Glad to hear. It makes me happy when someone gives wizards a chance. :)

[Gloomlord]

LOL

Check out the below Quote, which is in reference to me:



DSM 2022: I have not blocked him. I believe people can redeem themselves.
DSM 2022: He is silly/trolling *ignores 99% of my posts*

Hehe. :)


Just like he says he'd "happily" admit he's wrong.

He's a lying piece of feculent scum.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Gloomlord]

"I'm going to keep repeating my same redundant line over and over. I'm sure that won't make look stupid or anything"

[cyxthryth]

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, DSM - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

Hehe. :)

[tadkins]

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

Does all of that really matter though? Mob is gonna die, even if it takes a couple extra seconds longer. I don't think there's a need for that level of intricate parsing and optimization in a game like this. It's because of that mindset that other players who play certain classes have a hard time getting taken seriously.

[PlsNoBan]

300 pages and DSM still copy pasting dumb shit

For my boy Troxx:

https://i.imgur.com/XglamKs.gif

https://i.imgur.com/aqy96nU.gif

[PlsNoBan]

Only 7 more useless copy paste posts and DSM is at 1000!

[Allishia]

woohoo grats on 300 pages, good job everyone =P

[Karanis]

18791

18791

18791

[Gloomlord]

Jokes aside, this is embarrassing.

One of the longest threads on this forum, and it's about some manchild unable to concede on the most innocuous point imaginable.

[Headbusta]

I cant believe this is still going.

tl;dr DSM is a shaman fanboy and has slight brain damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, DSM - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

Hehe. :)

[Headbusta]

23 year old elf sim is serious business