Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[cyxthryth]

Notice where Naboom said:

"They can teleport a single group member already in zone to themselves".

That is because you can use the word teleport to describe what happens. It is synonymous.

It is amazing you post evidence disproving your own terrible troll lol.

No. They said: "teleport"; teleport =/= "teleport" due to the fact that one is simply inside of quotation marks, the other simply isn't. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

Notice how he put "teleport" in quotation marks? What do you think that means? In conjunction with him shortly thereafter saying only druids and wizards can teleport?

Such an honest argument DSM is making. I'm impressed by this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Notice how he put "teleport" in quotation marks? What do you think that means? In conjunction with him shortly thereafter saying only druids and wizards can teleport?

Such an honest argument DSM is making. I'm impressed by this.

You had a random person use the word teleport in the first message they sent you. This is because the word works perfectly fine to describe what happens. It is the exact same action.

Otherwise he would say "it isn't a teleport" in the first message. Very simple stuff. You probably should have photoshopped that out to maximize your terrible attempt at a strawman. Can't even do that.

[cyxthryth]

You had a random person use the word teleport in the first message they sent you. This is because the word works perfectly fine to describe what happens. It is the exact same action.

Otherwise he would say "it isn't a teleport" in the first message. Very simple stuff. You probably should have photoshopped that out to maximize your terrible attempt at a strawman. Can't even do that.

No. They said: "teleport"; teleport =/= "teleport" due to the fact that one is simply inside of quotation marks, the other simply isn't. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling.

https://c.tenor.com/4dkks7sQbesAAAAC/ds9-deep-space9.gif

[PlsNoBan]

You had a random person use the word teleport in the first message they sent you. This is because the word works perfectly fine to describe what happens. It is the exact same action.

Otherwise he would say "it isn't a teleport" in the first message. Very simple stuff. You probably should have photoshopped that out to maximize your terrible attempt at a strawman. Can't even do that.

Oh yea I'm sure he put "teleport" in quotations for no reason. You're totally right. It's obviously something everyone recognizes as a teleport spell.

LF Mage port tipping well

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh yea I'm sure he put "teleport" in quotations for no reason. You're totally right. It's obviously something everyone recognizes as a teleport spell.

LF Mage port tipping well

If teleport was an inappropriate word, he wouldn't have used it at all.

The reason why your troll is so bad is because you are just playing semantic games, as usual.

In P99, people commonly use the word "teleport" or "port" to refer specifically to Wizard/Druid spells that can take you to various zones.

I simply used the word teleport when describing Mages/Wizards/Druids, because it is an appropriate synonym, as Naboom showed.

A Mage's primary role in raiding is teleporting players lol. CoTH is their most important spell.

You really are grasping at straws here to try and "gotcha" me for using a synonym that describes CoTHing as teleporting, which is true. Naboom did the same thing.

Plenty of people will say "teleport" instead of "summon", like Naboom, because the game-specific jargon isn't relevant to the description of the action. "Teleport" is a much more common word to describe the action.

[cyxthryth]

Oh yea I'm sure he put "teleport" in quotations for no reason. You're totally right. It's obviously something everyone recognizes as a teleport spell.

LF Mage port tipping well

Separate From The Group Root/Rot DPS Shaman LF Pocket Mage Port to Ixiblat

[Gloomlord]

The thing is, though: you lumped them in with druids and wizards -- legitimate teleporting classes.

This just in: Necromancers are teleporters! They teleport you across the world to your corpse!

[cyxthryth]

If teleport was an inappropriate word, he wouldn't have used it at all.

The reason why your troll is so bad is because you are just playing semantic games, as usual.

In P99, people commonly use the word "teleport" or "port" to refer specifically to Wizard/Druid spells that can take you to various zones.

I simply used the word teleport when describing Mages/Wizards/Druids, because it is an appropriate synonym, as Naboom showed.

A Mage's primary role in raiding is teleporting players lol. CoTH is their most important spell.

You really are grasping at straws here to try and "gotcha" me for using a synonym that describes CoTHing as teleporting, which is true. Naboom did the same thing.

Plenty of people will say "teleport" instead of "summon", like Naboom, because the game-specific jargon isn't relevant to the description of the action. "Teleport" is a much more common word to describe the action.

No. They said: "teleport"; teleport =/= "teleport" due to the fact that one is simply inside of quotation marks, the other simply isn't. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The thing is, though: you lumped them in with druids and wizards -- legitimate teleporting classes.

This just in: Necromancers are teleporters! They teleport you across the world to your corpse!

CoTHing is legitimate and heavily used, just like Wizard and Druid ports.

Resing is different, because it requires a corpse, and you get res sickness.

CoTH has no res sickness, and you don't need a corpse. Just like Wizard/Druid ports. This is really simple.

Druid/Wizard ports can also teleport you without zoning. If you cast circle of commons in West Commons, you don't zone.

[Troxx]

I did a very important test and I have data for the community to review:

https://i.imgur.com/cskk3aC.png

https://i.imgur.com/eISPUjw.gif


ROFL

[cyxthryth]

CoTHing is legitimate and heavily used, just like Wizard and Druid ports.

Resing is different, because it requires a corpse, and you get res sickness.

CoTH has no res sickness, and you don't need a corpse. Just like Wizard/Druid ports. This is really simple.

Druid/Wizard ports can also teleport you without zoning. If you cast circle of commons in West Commons, you don't zone.

In addition to the above opinions DSM has shared, let's review the below claims DSM has made in this thread and then simply made contradictory claims subsequently - for some reason - in this very same thread as well:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

Did we ever get any more votes? Remember we’re voting on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group. So far shamans are losing by a wide margin. Poor DSM.

—————————————————

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)

Get your votes in!

As DSM won’t cast an official vote, I’ll presume shaman is his preference and have cast his vote in absentia for him. If he changes is mind I’ll happily change his vote to druid

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

[Gloomlord]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling.

Listen, you imbecile...

What is the point of posting this ad infinitum, exactly?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Listen, you imbecile...

What is the point of posting this ad infinitum, exactly?

To keep the game facts from being drowned out by trolling.

If you want to actually contribute and help people learn, you can start providing evidence you think will prove your point instead.

It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong. Only that the correct information is available.

I will remove your name from the troll list too if you start contributing.

[Gloomlord]

You want to help people learn? That's the purpose of you being here now?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OffensiveFaithfulCats-size_restricted.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You want to help people learn? That's the purpose of you being here now?


That has always been the purpose. I am not sure where you thought this changed, and I have said it many times.

Unfortunately you are the one who keeps claiming all data that disagrees with them is invalid without evidence.

That is not an argument, so we have yet to progress the discussion past your pointless trolling.

[cyxthryth]

That has always been the purpose. I am not sure where you thought this changed, and I have said it many times.

Unfortunately you are the one who keeps claiming all data that disagrees with them is invalid without evidence.

That is not an argument, so we have yet to progress the discussion past your pointless trolling.

You have yet to provide the definition you are using for "trolling", and you have yet to address the below:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

That has always been the purpose. I am not sure where you thought this changed, and I have said it many times.

Unfortunately you are the one who keeps claiming all data that disagrees with them is invalid without evidence.

That is not an argument, so we have yet to progress the discussion past your pointless trolling.

Funny, I guess all this time I had it all wrong...

Because I thought you were merely a child too cowardly to admit defeat.

But you'd be "happy" to admit it, right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Funny, I guess all this time I had it all wrong...

Because I thought you were merely a child too cowardly to admit defeat.

But you'd be "happy" to admit it, right?

The only cowards here are the people who are so afraid of opinions that disagree with them, they must resort to burying the information in a mountain of troll posts.

I am not sure why the data and maths I have presented are so threatening to you that you must resort to such childish tactics.

[Gloomlord]

If we had a hypocrisy metre right now, it'd go off the scales.

So much projection here, it's astounding.

[Troxx]

Remember we’re voting on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group. So far shamans are losing by a wide margin. Poor DSM.

—————————————————
Tally so far

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)

Get your votes in!

As DSM won’t cast an official vote, I’ll presume shaman is his preference and have cast his vote in absentia for him. If he changes is mind I’ll happily change his vote to druid


POLLING STATION WILL CLOSE SOON! Get your votes in!

https://c.tenor.com/G6R6XyRsvWoAAAAM/stop-the-count-donald-trump.gif

Unless we get a slate of fake electors to hijack voting machines and usurp the will of the fine upstanding legal citizens of Norrath it looks like shamans are going to be relegated 5th best choice for this group (otherwise known as “dayum almost as bad as wizards”)

https://c.tenor.com/K9H6ltNcrhoAAAAC/lol-laughing.gif

Cast your votes now!

[cyxthryth]

The only cowards here are the people who are so afraid of opinions that disagree with them, they must resort to burying the information in a mountain of troll posts.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion that "The only cowards here are the people who are so afraid of opinions that disagree with them, they must resort to burying the information in a mountain of troll posts."; which is simply your opinion.

I am not sure why the data and maths I have presented are so threatening to you that you must resort to such childish tactics.

You have provided zero evidence to support your - laughable - claim that others are threatened by your - irrelevant, as has been pointed out & explained to you in detail multiple times by multiple posters - data.

Perhaps, instead of - laughably - creating strawmen such as that others are threatened, you could address the below:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/fAkgcYDtPccAAAAM/election2020-2020election.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

[PlsNoBan]

ATTENTION ALL THE PEOPLE NOT READING THIS THREAD: PLEASE IGNORE EVERYONE EXCEPT DSM. EVERYONE ELSE IZ TROLLZ.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ATTENTION ALL THE PEOPLE NOT READING THIS THREAD: PLEASE IGNORE EVERYONE EXCEPT DSM. EVERYONE ELSE IZ TROLLZ.

The top five posters who are trolling are:

PlsNoBan with 609 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Troxx with 410 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Cyxthryth with 323 posts, all of which are nonsense.

Gloomlord with 249 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Ripqozko with 109 post, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

The total is currently well over 1300 posts that are just insults/memes/trolls.

Yes, it is very easy to figure out who the trolls are in this thread.

You reap what you sow. If you don't want to be a troll, don't troll.

[Gloomlord]

The top five posters who are trolling are:

PlsNoBan with 609 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Troxx with 410 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Cyxthryth with 323 posts, all of which are nonsense.

Gloomlord with 249 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Ripqozko with 109 post, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

The total is currently well over 1300 posts that are just insults/memes/trolls.

Yes, it is very easy to figure out who the trolls are in this thread.

You reap what you sow. If you don't want to be a troll, don't troll.

Respond to Cyxthryth, you absolute coward.

You even admitted it wasn't either of those three thing, but "nonsense".

Isn't it all nonsense, then? Just stop lying.

[cyxthryth]

The top five posters who are trolling are:

PlsNoBan with 609 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Troxx with 410 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Cyxthryth with 323 posts, all of which are nonsense.

Gloomlord with 249 posts, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

Ripqozko with 109 post, the vast majority are just insults/memes/trolls.

The total is currently well over 1300 posts that are just insults/memes/trolls.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion, which is simply your opinion.

Yes, it is very easy to figure out who the trolls are in this thread.

You have not provided the definition of "troll" that you are using.

You reap what you sow. If you don't want to be a troll, don't troll.

You have not provided the definition of "troll" that you are using.

You have not addressed the below:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

[PlsNoBan]

ATTENTION ALL THE PEOPLE NOT READING THIS THREAD: PLEASE IGNORE EVERYONE EXCEPT DSM. EVERYONE ELSE IZ TROLLZ.

[PlsNoBan]

"5 people combined have 1200 posts. What a bunch of idiots. Who would post that much?" - Guy with 1200 posts by himself

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

[Troxx]

"5 people combined have 1200 posts. What a bunch of idiots. Who would post that much?" - Guy with 1200 posts by himself

https://c.tenor.com/sIzMTGPxIeMAAAAM/well-done.gif

[Troxx]

I wonder how many bat phones DSM has missed

-or-

how many VQ raids he attended but wasn’t actually paying attention while accumulating 1200 posts in this thread over the last few weeks.

For the latter that’s what would bother me most. I get that p99 raids are a Zerg fest where overwhelming numbers take down contested content but if I was leading a raiding guild I would, at a minimum, expect my guild mates to be paying attention … not tabbed out masturbating or accumulating 1200 posts in a few weeks in a single thread

… or even worse tabbed our masturbating to the dumbass posts they are making (highly likely in the case of DSM)

Cause we all know what DSM is doing when posting his napkin math:

https://c.tenor.com/5AwBd7qD-5YAAAAC/pupa.gif

[Gustoo]

I wanna make an all rogue rogue only guild and see how much of the game we can defeat with only rogue powers.

[Gustoo]

Kinda like a tootsie roll. How many rogues does it take to kill vox? One? Two? Three? (Turns head and a buncha casters show up and gate out), three. It takes three

[PatChapp]

"5 people combined have 1200 posts. What a bunch of idiots. Who would post that much?" - Guy with 1200 posts by himself

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

This is pretty pathetic to be honest

[PlsNoBan]

This is pretty pathetic to be honest

This is the least pathetic part of this thread to be honest

What guild are you in out of curiosity? Word on the street is DSM batphoned for backup in this thread. Investigation still underway.

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is pretty pathetic to be honest

Agreed. Very childish.

[PlsNoBan]

Agreed. Very childish.

Everyone silently reading this thread: Please ignore DSM. He's just a troll. You're welcome for not assaulting your eyes with a wall of text of bullshit.

[PatChapp]

I'm in vanquish, I'm actually a close personal friend of Mr milk.
I'm in vanquish on the green server,where I play, to be clear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Agreed. Very childish.


If you were to attempt to utilize the fact that another particular/specific poster seemed to agree with you on one or more particular points to attempt to claim, state, or otherwise imply/reveal/betray/expose (intentionally or otherwise) that you believe that could, would, or did somehow strengthen your argument, that would simply be an example of you claiming your argument is strengthened due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - like you previously (intentionally or otherwise) attempted to claim by attempting to claim/imply that it was relevant that you and OP both (apparently) believe that "OP's post was/is general", and that that somehow meant there are no goalposts and/or that you have not moved the goalposts, simply due to you (and OP) making and agreeing with that claim. You have - laughably - still not provided the meaning that you were attempting to convey by "general" (or what meaning you believed the OP was attempting to convey causing you to - seemingly - agree with them).

[Troxx]

I did a very important test and I have data for the community to review:

https://i.imgur.com/cskk3aC.png


https://c.tenor.com/aVpaX9O0Xa0AAAAC/thats-some-funny-shit-thats-funny.gif

/shrug

Some mighty fine detective work if you ask me.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just….

Didn’t you get the memo? Election Day was yesterday. Polls are now officially closed and all absentee ballots are accounted for. The thread is over.

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

Further discussion is unnecessary DSM. Time to pack it up and go home muchacho!

https://c.tenor.com/nAUWzOAI6HkAAAAM/carry-viralhog.gif

[Toxigen]

I wonder how many bat phones DSM has missed

-or-

how many VQ raids he attended but wasn’t actually paying attention while accumulating 1200 posts in this thread over the last few weeks.



Doesn't matter he isn't a playmaker. All he has to do is log and get to the zone-in before the boss gets to like 40% and get on the kill list.

Always disliked that one weakness behind discord bots and raid logs. So many warmbodies doing absolutely nothing collecting dkp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1300 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Troxx]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just….

Didn’t you get the memo? Election Day was yesterday. Polls are now officially closed and all absentee ballots are accounted for. The thread is over.

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

Further discussion is unnecessary DSM. Time to pack it up and go home muchacho!

https://c.tenor.com/nAUWzOAI6HkAAAAM/carry-viralhog.gif

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/hYZmNf2vDd0AAAAM/roflcopter.gif

[Gloomlord]

Agreed. Very childish.

Much like how you say your solo parse is indicative of group DPS, right?

You know what childishness entails? Lack of responsibility to own up to your mistakes.

[Valakut]

tell your mage to start poop socking velk for the boots before he tries to roll on your fungi

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Much like how you say your solo parse is indicative of group DPS, right?

You know what childishness entails? Lack of responsibility to own up to your mistakes.

Please provide evidence to support your claim my data is invalid. So far you haven't, and continue to act childish by trolling instead.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/-N8vjwCU0n0AAAAC/lollerblades-lol.gif

[Gloomlord]

You're so right, DSM!

Shaman solo DPS is going to be the same as group DPS in Seb/Chardok with 2 charms!

Oh, wait! No, it's not. Unless you're root rotting, and therefore completely putting the shaman and his group at risk.

You've been checkmated on this before, you malevolent manchild.

Oh, by the way? Respond to Cyx's posts. Why is he the only "troll" you're ignoring?

[cyxthryth]

Oh, by the way? Respond to Cyx's posts. Why is he the only "troll" you're ignoring?

Thanks for the support!

[Troxx]

You're so right, DSM!

Shaman solo DPS is going to be as the group DPS in Seb/Chardok with 2 charms!


https://c.tenor.com/GgZ61GJocj8AAAAC/lol-lolcopter.gif

[PlsNoBan]

I'm in vanquish

https://i.imgur.com/hJHjSeU.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're so right, DSM!

Shaman solo DPS is going to be the same as group DPS in Seb/Chardok with 2 charms!

Oh, wait! No, it's not. Unless you're root rotting, and therefore completely putting the shaman and his group at risk.

You've been checkmated on this before, you malevolent manchild.

Oh, by the way? Respond to Cyx's posts. Why is he the only "troll" you're ignoring?

You have yet to actually show why you think this is the case.

Instead, you continue to troll in the childish hope I go away.

[Troxx]

You have yet to actually show why you think this is the case.

Instead, you continue to troll in the childish hope I go away.

https://c.tenor.com/jD2hqJ6wBxsAAAAC/lmao-lmaonaisse.gif

[PlsNoBan]

Day 2: Still unable to find any mages willing to teleport me anywhere. Will report back any further developments

[Troxx]

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

[cyxthryth]

You have yet to actually show why you think this is the case.

I have stated multiple irrefutable facts which you simply have not addressed/acknowledged/challenged/attempted to refute, and I have asked multiple - direct - questions, the VAST majority which you have simply not provided any - direct - reply to.

Instead, you continue to troll in the childish hope I go away.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion that others or a specific/particular other poster "continues to troll in the childish hope you go away". You have provided zero evidence to support the claim, therefore it is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Troxx]

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

[Jibartik]

This is why people hate science and progress.

You left literally every non magic user, let alone the hybrids off the list entierly.

[Troxx]

Jib … it was kind of the point of the thread. An exercise in what can be done without melee.

For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.

If limited to 4 and factoring in ALL content: warrrior, cleric, rog, ench. Defensive disc, rogue to open any needed doors. Too much healing and tons of cc/dps to boot. If the cam really needs FD? Swap the warrior for a sk. Otherwise bring on the trains and for heavy ass beaters you have evasive/defensive.

For a duo (xp and named)

Cleric/ench
sham/monk
sham/sk

[PlsNoBan]

Jib … it was kind of the point of the thread. An exercise in what can be done without melee.

For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.

If limited to 4 and factoring in ALL content: warrrior, cleric, rog, ench. Defensive disc, rogue to open any needed doors. Too much healing and tons of cc/dps to boot. If the cam really needs FD? Swap the warrior for a sk. Otherwise bring on the trains and for heavy ass beaters you have defensive.

For a duo (xp and named)

Cleric/ench
sham/monk
sham/sk

So refreshing to see someone say things that make sense in this thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Jib … it was kind of the point of the thread. An exercise in what can be done without melee.

For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.

If limited to 4 and factoring in ALL content: warrrior, cleric, rog, ench. Defensive disc, rogue to open any needed doors. Too much healing and tons of cc/dps to boot. If the cam really needs FD? Swap the warrior for a sk. Otherwise bring on the trains and for heavy ass beaters you have defensive.

For a duo (xp and named)

Cleric/ench
sham/monk
sham/sk

You keep voting for Shaman and against Mage in every situation.

I am still not sure where the disagreement is, other than your clear desire to troll me.

It is clear you understand DPS breakpoints, the usefulness of redundant utility, etc. It is why you have a Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter in your six man group.
It is also why you aren't saying the best six man group is just Cleric/Warrior/Rogue/Rogue/Rouge/Rogue for max DPS.

So if a six man group can use a Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter just fine, why can't a four man group do the same and be just fine?

[Troxx]

So refreshing to see someone say things that make sense in this thread

I am a realist. Shamans are a stellar class. This was a weird question to pose and given the confines of this thread it is funny that one of the most OP classes didn’t fit well.

As far as dps goes…

my warrior hovers 80-100dps with basic buffs Frostreaver and defensive/evasive
my paladin hovers 70-85 dps with greatspear of dawn and paladin utility
my mage hovers 100-120 dps and no tanking or cc
my necro hovers 70-95dps unless charming but tons of utility
my cleric is practically no dps but keeps any group alive
my shaman is a boss doing tons of shit but actual group dps is meh
my druid rarely gets played but can get a job done with laughable dps
my epic/TStaff monk is barely better dps than my paladin but can FD and do cool stuff
my bard has no epic, is shit dps, but can do amazeballs stuff otherwise

This thread is so far separated from what a real ideal group is it isn’t even funny. With so many years of velious and such gear inflation you can tackle most any camp with a wide range of less than ideal group setups.

But yeah … shamans are gods. They just don’t fit into this narrow, obtuse, exercise in the realm of “what if”

[Troxx]

You keep voting for Shaman and against Mage in every situation.

I am still not sure where the disagreement is, other than your clear desire to troll me.

Read my most recent post. Stop being a concrete thinker. Expand your mind.

Within the confines of this very narrow and unrealistic group setup …

Ench/mage/nec >>> druid > sham > wiz

It’s not rocket surgery.

And it doesn’t apply to actual in game play. Nobody actually rolls a 4 man (no more
Than 4 … no pocket clerics) group that is ONLY limited to casters.

Ever.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Read my most recent post. Stop being a concrete thinker. Expand your mind.

I did read it. You think Cleric/Enchanter/Shaman works well together. Funny how they don't when you want to troll.

I am also a realist.

[Troxx]

They work great together when you have melee … and when the group can include 6.

What is so confusing to you?

The rules were:

-only casters
-only 4
-best of the best for all content eq had to offer

If you open it up to melee, tanks, up to 6 man … less than 4 man … it all changes.

Quit being a concrete thinker. Shamans are great. They just do NOT fit the confines of this stupid ass thread question as well as other classes.

It

Is

Not

Rocket

Surgery

Shamans excel with melee duos or trios. Shamans can flat out SOLO a lot of this stuff with no help.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They work great together when you have melee … and when the group can include 6.

What is so confusing to you?

The rules were:

-only casters
-only 4
-best of the best for all content eq had to offer

If you open it up to melee, tanks, up to 6 man … it all changes.

Quit being a concrete thinker. Shamans are great. They just do now fit the confines of this stupid ass thread question as well as other classes.

It

Is

Not

Rocket

Surgery

Its not confusing at all. Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[PlsNoBan]

Its not confusing at all. Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:



If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

This is the very root of the problem in this thread. You're completely unable or unwilling to understand the nuances and differences between these different scenarios. You think changing variables somehow produces the same results. You take it personally because you love your class so much (I get it. No shame in it) when people say a different class is better at x or y. Nobody and I mean NOBODY is denying that shamans are an extremely powerful class. Probably 2nd only to enchanter in overall power? All people are arguing is that in this VERY SPECIFIC niche scenario that isn't all that common in the "real world" that shaman isn't the ideal choice. This seems to offend you to your core. So much so that you were willing to post 1200+ times arguing over it against literally every other poster here that disagrees. AGAIN shaman is a VERY POWERFUL class. Nobody is dissing shamans. In this specific situation someone is asking what the BEST COMBINATION of 4 caster/priest classes is OVERALL. Not the best 4 person caster/priest group for ixiblat or root rotting adds all over. Shaman simply doesn't make the cut here for a variety of reasons already discussed ad nauseum.

Why is this so hard for you? Admitting this very obvious fact doesn't diminish your class in the least. I realize you've dug too deep at this point to ever admit defeat or say anything different. I suspect there's part of you that realizes there's merit to what everyone is saying though. I refuse to believe you're actually this dense.

[Troxx]

DSM,

I will not argue with you what my preferred 6, 4, 3 or even 2 man group looks like if you include hybrids and melees.

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you. My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.

I love shamans. It was my second class to 60 after bard. My main (warrior) came much later and far after torpor as did my necro, druid, mage, cleric, monk and paladin. I know how classes work. I know what works and what doesn’t and how some classes complement each other so well that other classes become irrelevant.

Shamans are a great class. They just DO NOT belong in this unrealistic group as much as other classes might.

Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that. Mages are seriously underrated given they are tippy top best group dps and fill CRUCIAL raid roles no other class can fill. Outside of raids they are stellar dps and outperform any other class I have played within the confines of damage dealt and mobs being made dead. Important caveat is that I have NOT leveled an enchanter. This has been consistent to include necromancer. Necro can only charm undead. When they do it is really good dps but also risky … and for what? Maybe a pinch more dps than my mage could do? Without outside help it does add risk and time spent recharming that 100-120dps pet is time not spent doing dps. If external help is needed to cc, tash/malo my pet … is mana not spent on target. Anywhere without undead to charm the ONLY class that can challenge/beat my mage is a charming chanter.

Don’t misinterpret the above. Necros are stronger than mages. Zero question about it. But if the group just wants dps from a member, few if any do it better than a mage.

A fully velious geared rog? Sure. But when do you find them in xp groups. My warrior who is max xp and hovers just a few dps less fully buffed? Sure but how often do you find them in groups. Even then my mage has room to grow (epic, phinny staff, velks boots). My warrior already has THE BEST weapon for combined threat, dps and ripostes avoided. Are there better dps weapons? Yes. Better threat setups? Yes. But Frostreaver puts it all in one convenient package. My paladin likewise has THE BEST weapon for dps and tanking. My monk with TStaff wouldn’t see an actual bump without velious raid gear.

[Jibartik]

Jib … it was kind of the point of the thread. An exercise in what can be done without melee.

O yea look at that title :o

[Troxx]

O yea look at that title :o

https://c.tenor.com/wrJ_NpV_nFQAAAAd/nervous-shudder.gif

Excellent. Now you understand the “why”. What none of us can understand is why it has taken over 350 pages for DSM to open his mind.

https://c.tenor.com/CcWEQA4YHhwAAAAC/be-more-open-neil-degrasse-tyson.gif

Without autism this thread would have been done and buried 300 pages ago.

[cyxthryth]

What none of us can understand is why it has taken over 350 pages for DSM to open his mind.

With all due respect Troxx, I do not personally hold the opinion (which is simply my opinion) that DSM has particularly shown evidence that he has opened his mind.

For the sake of civil discussion, I will provide the following as the definition/meaning I am intending to convey by "open his mind" in this specific post/context (in case it differs from the meaning you were attempting to convey, and in order to prevent my use of "open his mind" from being misunderstood): to demonstrate capability/capacity and interest in expanding both one's own and another or multiple other posters' understanding of each other's perspectives, to the mutual benefit of all participants who are presumed to be truthful and participating/discussing or "arguing" in good faith, to defend their positions/stances/perspectives/beliefs with relevant, factual data/evidence/logic/math.

As far as I am aware, DSM has - yet again - copy/pasted that same old "Thanks Allishia!" copy/paste post (which he has continued to copy/paste) - which simply includes simply irrelevant solo Shaman data - as recently as a few hours ago, and he has multiple times now shared that it is his opinion/belief (which he has - laughably -attempted to state/claim objectively in his posts, as if he for some reason believes that his opinions/beliefs are objective facts) that the reason the data he keeps copy/pasting is irrelevant to this discussion has not been proven/explained/shown to him (which would of course be - objectively - false), & has repeatedly demanded/claimed/stated/posted that other posters or specific/particular other posters (such as Gloomlord, for example) still need to prove/explain why/show that it is irrelevant... as if it has not already been proven/explained/shown multiple times by multiple posters.

DSM has also simply not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

… stuff …

https://c.tenor.com/C_NvB0q_rfEAAAAd/horse-as-an-expert-i-agree.gif

I still find it hilarious he absolutely will not respond or talk to you directly.

https://c.tenor.com/U5a9JhjfhNwAAAAC/it-can-smell-fear-dwayne-johnson.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.

Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[Ripqozko]

Mega Yikes

[Troxx]

Mega Yikes

https://c.tenor.com/wrJ_NpV_nFQAAAAd/nervous-shudder.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.

Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[Troxx]

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif


I can copy and paste too!

[cyxthryth]

More projecting.

You simply have not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

You all see, I have tried my best to discuss this topic with civility and intelligence.

Moving forward we will de-evolve into more copy/paste from DSM and more funny/ironic/on-point GiFs.

Viva la page 400!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You all see, I have tried my best to discuss this topic with civility and intelligence.

Moving forward we will de-evolve into more copy/paste from DSM and more funny/ironic/on-point GiFs.

Viva la page 400!

No, you haven't. It is why you have literally hundreds of meme/insult posts. You didn't address my last post either I see.

[PlsNoBan]

You all see, I have tried my best to discuss this topic with civility and intelligence.

Moving forward we will de-evolve into more copy/paste from DSM and more funny/ironic/on-point GiFs.

Viva la page 400!

I tried to have serious discussion in the beginning. The sheer stupidity at the other end and feeling of talking to a brick wall eventually pushes people into a more trolly/meme approach. I keep occasionally going back to trying to talk some sense into him (see my last post) and it gets ignored or he just doubles down on some retarded nonsense and I give up again.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I tried to have serious discussion in the beginning. The sheer stupidity at the other end and feeling of talking to a brick wall eventually pushes people into a more trolly/meme approach. I keep occasionally going back to trying to talk some sense into him (see my last post) and it gets ignored or he just doubles down on some retarded nonsense and I give up again.

Not really. You started insulting and trolling really early on.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/TpFGWGsaDvcAAAAC/office-michael.gif

Go go page 400!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.

Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[cyxthryth]

Not really. You started insulting and trolling really early on.

The above is simply an example of you sharing your opinion; which is simply your opinion. You do not - seemingly - appear to demonstrate an open mind by simply stating "you started insulting and trolling really early on" when you have - particularly and specifically - not provided the definition that you are using for "troll"/"trolling".

You additionally simply have not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[cyxthryth]

You didn't address my last post either I see.

You simply have not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

stuff


We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif


I can copy and paste too!!

[cyxthryth]

I can copy and paste too!!

It really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/TpFGWGsaDvcAAAAC/office-michael.gif

Go go page 400!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I can copy and paste too!!

Thanks for admitting you can't address anything in my last post. It must have really hit home.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/TpFGWGsaDvcAAAAC/office-michael.gif

Go go page 400!

[cyxthryth]

Thanks for admitting you can't address anything in my last post. It must have really hit home.

You simply have not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.


For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.



Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[cyxthryth]

More projecting.

You simply have not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

So funny DSM has never directly responded to you Cyxth

My guess is he would have to admit check mate.

You have him so boxed in with his own quotes it’s not even funny.

[PlsNoBan]

Not really. You started insulting and trolling really early on.

Guess it depends on what you consider "early on". You were also a stubborn moron early on so

https://i.imgur.com/V49tEgX.gif

[PlsNoBan]

Is it true that threads get auto-locked at 1000 pages like someone was saying early in the thread? Hopefully there's an end in sight. How many posts you think DSM will have by then?

[Troxx]

15k

It’s funny. Before this thread I had 200-300 more total posts than DSM since 2014. Now look at the difference

And I have posted A LOT of GiFs.

#sad

[cyxthryth]

Is it true that threads get auto-locked at 1000 pages like someone was saying early in the thread? Hopefully there's an end in sight. How many posts you think DSM will have by then?

Honestly? I have no clue, and unfortunately my predictive powers are severely limited by my biology and amount/level of access to technology, but what I can say is that I - personally - certainly hold out hope that by or before then, the following - which DSM thus far simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute - get addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to be refuted:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

So funny DSM has never directly responded to you Cyxth

My guess is he would have to admit check mate.

You have him so boxed in with his own quotes it’s not even funny.

[PlsNoBan]

15k

It’s funny. Before this thread I had 200-300 more total posts than DSM since 2014. Now look at the difference

And I have posted A LOT of GiFs.

#sad

Yeah... I'm not gonna lie I'm a little embarrassed at my post count in this thread when I look at it. But then I see DSM's and I'm like "Ahh its not that bad" lol

[Troxx]

Yeah... I'm not gonna lie I'm a little embarrassed at my post count in this thread when I look at it. But then I see DSM's and I'm like "Ahh its not that bad" lol

https://c.tenor.com/De7gEu_6aaYAAAAC/best-friends-step-brother.gif

[cd288]

Wait wait did he really spend the weekend arguing that mages should be useful in the group as a porting class?

[Troxx]

Wait wait did he really spend the weekend arguing that mages should be useful in the group as a porting class?

Yes.

I swear you cannot make this shit up.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait wait did he really spend the weekend arguing that mages should be useful in the group as a porting class?

No. PlsNoBan forgot CoTH teleports players and then tried to troll me to mask it. It failed spectacularly.

[PlsNoBan]

Wait wait did he really spend the weekend arguing that mages should be useful in the group as a porting class?

He did. Then tried to justify it by saying coth is teleport. It was the funniest shit I've literally ever seen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He did. Then tried to justify it by saying coth is teleport. It was the funniest shit I've literally ever seen.

No. PlsNoBan forgot CoTH teleports players and then tried to troll me to mask it. It failed spectacularly.

He thought OT Hammer teleports other players.

[PlsNoBan]

coth is teleport

gate is not

wc cap is not

dueling to kill someone is not

rez is not

OT hammer is not


#DSMLogic

[DeathsSilkyMist]

coth is teleport

gate is not

wc cap is not

dueling to kill someone is not

rez is not

OT hammer is not


#DSMLogic

CoTH teleports other players.

Gate is a self teleport.

WC Cap is a self teleport.

OT Hammer is a self teleport.

Res requires death and gives you res sickness.

One of these things is not like the others. Hint: CoTH.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/LhwROhmQijQAAAAC/hard-time-anchorman.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://c.tenor.com/LhwROhmQijQAAAAC/hard-time-anchorman.gif

I know. It is amazing you don't think CoTH teleports other players.

[Troxx]

CoTH teleports other players.

Gate is a self teleport.

WC Cap is a self teleport.

OT Hammer is a self teleport.

Res requires death and gives you res sickness.

One of these things is not like the others. Hint: CoTH.


Oh shit he is still sticking to his guns!

https://c.tenor.com/tVLoJGjwycgAAAAd/the-office-stanley.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh shit he is still sticking to his guns!

https://c.tenor.com/tVLoJGjwycgAAAAd/the-office-stanley.gif

Yes. These are facts. But you don't like facts, which is why you ignore them.

I am not sure how you can argue CoTH doesn't teleport other players. It's bizarre.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/sZXy1-NQvKYAAAAd/stanley-stanley-hudson.gif

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/n7RZAhLOFsQAAAAC/leslie-david-baker-laughing.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is such an amazing fail of a troll. Please keep doing it. I cannot fathom how you think it makes you look good.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/5HGH1Dqg9IoAAAAd/the-office-stanley.gif

[PlsNoBan]

He's doubling down on it rofl

https://i.imgur.com/h6gaZP1.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and PlsNoBan don't believe CoTH moves another player from point A to point B. Amazing.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/wF7NIp4tZ1QAAAAd/lol-laugh.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and PlsNoBan don't believe CoTH moves another player from point A to point B. Amazing.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/K0I5UdSIsxgAAAAC/stanley-theoffice.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and PlsNoBan don't believe CoTH moves another player from point A to point B.

It is the worst trolling backfire I have ever seen.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/KZSCnVzDgKcAAAAM/controlling-laugh-laughing.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and PlsNoBan don't believe CoTH moves another player from point A to point B.

It is the worst trolling backfire I have ever seen. Amazing stuff. Please keep doubling down.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/tQBqO8U.gif

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/KOAIpjEkNzUAAAAM/mike-tyson-laugh.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and PlsNoBan don't believe CoTH moves another player from point A to point B.

It is the worst trolling backfire I have ever seen. Amazing stuff.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/Vb_DMqhFRXYAAAAC/atg-capa.gif

[PlsNoBan]

Amazing stuff.

It's amazing alright

https://i.imgur.com/C7rK3cm.gif

[Troxx]

DSM: “mages are a teleporting class”

https://c.tenor.com/vjnEDddwf0AAAAAM/lel-teeth.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and PlsNoBan don't believe CoTH moves another player from point A to point B.

It is the worst trolling backfire I have ever seen. Amazing stuff.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

Trying to find a mage with teleport spells. No luck thus far. Not giving up!

[Troxx]

Troxx and PlsNoBan don't believe CoTH moves another player from point A to point B.

It is the worst trolling backfire I have ever seen. Amazing stuff.

DSM: “mages are a teleporting class”

https://c.tenor.com/7NdBVF53PM4AAAAd/laughing-rofl.gif

[PlsNoBan]

This "mages are a teleport class" thing is hands down the funniest part of this whole thread

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/ZoD42AFviTgAAAAC/funny-laughing.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.


For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.


Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:


Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.


If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[Troxx]

Can we get a moderator in here to forum suspend all us assholes for a time/ratio comparable to total posts in this dumpster fire?

Mute me for a month and DSM for 3-4 months. We’ll call it a win for everyone on p99 LOL

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This "mages are a teleport class" thing is hands down the funniest part of this whole thread

Indeed. It is the worst troll backfire I have ever seen. You forgot CoTH existed.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/REqgDts8CVgAAAAM/futurenostlgia-laughing.gifIndeed. It is the worst troll backfire I have ever seen. You forgot CoTH existed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can we get a moderator in here to forum suspend all us assholes for a time/ratio comparable to total posts in this dumpster fire?

Mute me for a month and DSM for 3-4 months. We’ll call it a win for everyone on p99 LOL

You are the reason this thread is so far off the rails.

You still haven't responded to my last post either.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/I06MU4HtDxYAAAAC/laughing-shirley-temple.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.


For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.


Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:


Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.


If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[Troxx]

DSM: mages are a teleporting class

https://c.tenor.com/tkdEt0ZispYAAAAC/lindsay-lohan-spitting.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.


For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.


Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:


Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.


If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[cyxthryth]

More projecting.

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

DSM: mages are a “teleporting class”

https://c.tenor.com/PeQqzVLYTmAAAAAM/michael-jordan-nba.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.


For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.


Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:


Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.


If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[Troxx]

DSM: mages are a “teleporting class”

https://c.tenor.com/2g1Cg2TGgUkAAAAC/laughing-hysterically-cracking-up.gif

[Troxx]

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

[cyxthryth]

More projecting.

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Troxx]

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/alDJxek.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That is just really cringy. I am sorry you are so mad at forgetting about CoTH.

[cyxthryth]

That is just really cringy. I am sorry you are so mad at forgetting about CoTH.

Your apology is as irrelevant to this discussion as solo Shaman root/rotting data, and you simply have not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

That is just really cringy. I am sorry you are so mad at forgetting about CoTH.

Shut up. You're just mad I came up with warriors being a healer before you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is where you failed DSM. You assumed I hate shamans and therefore you.


I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.


My dislike for YOU is entirely separate from my sentiments on the shaman class. Unlike you, I can engage in abstract thought and understand that just because a shaman is god solo or in the right group setup … that doesn’t mean it is always the ideal choice for everything.


More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.


Am I a bit of a mage fan-boy? Yes. I will admit that.


This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.


For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.


Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:


Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.


If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

[cyxthryth]

More projecting.

You simply have not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM simply has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", "new" and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

I never assumed this at all, nor did I say it anywhere. This is one of many strawmen you have created in your head. I still find it amazing at how many fictions have been created in this thread that people assume are facts. You are projecting the fact that you keep saying I hate mages, which I don't. I have said many times I like Mages.



More projecting. I am the one engaging in abstract thought by extrapolating simple solo DPS data to a group. You are the concrete thinker who cannot think about DPS outside of group data. You cannot fathom the concept that you can output the same DPS in a group and solo. Your concrete thinking is precisely why you keep thinking my data is invalid, when it isn't.



This is the real reason you don't like me. You don't like that I pointed out Mages don't really fit to well here due to their limitations. You should be happy with my Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage concept, since it does include them for CoTH.



Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:



If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. I think that is /thread.

https://i.imgur.com/JF3YcpW.png

https://i.imgur.com/9gBYGZd.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This will be my last post. Consensus has been reached. The trolls simply don't want to admit it, and will continue to post nonsense.


For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.


Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter work really well together, we agree on that. In a four man group you could do Cleric/Shaman/Enchanter/X and do really well, which has been my point since page 1:


Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.


If you actually believed your ideas about DPS and redundant utility, your six man group would look more like Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Monk/Rogue. You keep saying Shamans are redundant with Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter.

Honestly I am just glad you really agree with me. You just want to troll for whatever reason. Probably for fun. This is /thread.

[PlsNoBan]

This will be my last post

https://i.imgur.com/RyvnSul.gif

Also LOL you actually think Troxx agrees with you? That's hilarious. You have a really odd way of reading things.

[Gloomlord]

DSM practically reveals himself when Troxx said he thinks Shamans are 2nd best class in the game, yet votes for mage in this hypothetical group.

"You keep preferring shaman over mage" -- exposes that he's doing this because we think the shaman is a bad class, rather than totally unneeded in this 2 charm group.

DSM, I don't know if you have a mental disorder or not, but you have issues regardless.

[Troxx]

This will be my last post.

https://c.tenor.com/x3KhPdjjf2MAAAAC/yeah-no-nope.gif

[Troxx]

We voted on whether a shaman or druid would be a better addition to a 2 enchanter 1 cleric all caster group.

—————————————————
POLLING SITES ARE CLOSED! We are looking for any possible missing absentee ballots but do not expect to find any.

Final tally:

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)


The community has spoken!

Best group is cleric + ench + ench + *other*

For *other* the results are as follows:

First place: a necro, another enchanter or a mage
Second place: another enchanter, a mage or a necro
Third place: a mage, a necro, or another enchanter
Fourth place: druid
Fifth place: shaman
Sixth place: wizard

I would like to thank the community for turn-out and participation.

https://c.tenor.com/mZFvkE8KB50AAAAd/donald-trump-donald.gif

[cyxthryth]

simply don't want to admit it
This will be my last post


DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM simply has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", "new" and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

Now that DSM is done posting quick summary of the thread for all the silent readers:

Consensus for best 4 person caster/priest group is Enc/Enc/Clr/___ some say another enchanter (my personal vote if we really wanna min/max) but situationally either a mage or a necro would be a better option. It is unanimously agreed that shaman has no place in this group if you truly want the BEST 4 person caster/priest makeup for the vast majority of situations. In fact most people seem to agree shaman is the 2nd least favorable option only beating out Wizards who unfortunately are just a really shitty class for grouping in general. Side tangents about warriors soloing better than enchanters and mages being a "teleport class" are comically false and I hope nobody actually took any of that seriously. I'm quite certain anyone that knows anything about this game got a good chuckle out of someone even suggesting those things. I hope this has been educational and thanks for coming to my TED talk!

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

https://i.imgur.com/ejP6rOO.gif

[Ripqozko]

Lol @it being his last post. DSM you lost, it's clear to everyone reading. I look forward to your next reply to lie again.

[Vexenu]

If DSM doesn't come back I'm gonna start making the case for the Wizard as the 4th man (with pocket Shaman out of group root rotting).

[Troxx]

If DSM doesn't come back I'm gonna start making the case for the Wizard as the 4th man (with pocket Shaman out of group root rotting).

lol

[goblinmob]

If I get to vote, I say Cleric for sure because not a spell would be wasted. I wouldn't agree with anything about 2 enchanters. If the group can pamper 1 competent enchanter it should be able to handle whatever 4 casters would wanna typically go out and wanna fight. I would favor wizard or druid for a slot for teleport alone. I liked the play style of my druid. So I guess shaman for the 4th spot. I haven't played one yet though.

I guess it'd be an enchanter's dream team while they solo dungeons haha

[Karanis]

This will be my last post.

18824

18823

[Toxigen]

dude

lol

[Garnaak]

This hasn't been figured out in 369 pages?

The correct answer imo is ENC/ENC/ENC/CLR

Whatever you do, don't go adding any gimpy shaman into the group.








(Oh, this is not an RNF thread? I guess I am lost.)

[PlsNoBan]

The correct answer imo is ENC/ENC/ENC/CLR

We pretty much knew this the first page or two. This thread spiraled out of control cause a psychopath kept saying silly things and trolling people into arguing with him.

[Toxigen]

guys a shaman can do as much dps as mage tho

[Gloomlord]

Wait...

Could it be he's actually telling the truth?

[PlsNoBan]

Wait...

Could it be he's actually telling the truth?

Seems like it could be true. DSM loses the battle to the "trolls" after a valiant battle spanning 360+ pages and 1188 posts. Probably a solid 1/4 of those were copy pastes sadly but it's still pretty impressive!


https://i.imgur.com/VjEUpyc.gif

[cyxthryth]

At least the post history will - clearly - remain clear. Hehe. :)

[Toxigen]

bump as a reminder this thread actually happened

[cd288]

Unfortunately, we don't need a reminder because he's literally moved to another thread to make some of the same arguments he made here. That one is about to turn into a 300+ page mess

[Troxx]

Unfortunately, we don't need a reminder because he's literally moved to another thread to make some of the same arguments he made here. That one is about to turn into a 300+ page mess

I wonder if his guild forced him to stop posting in this thread

[cd288]

I think it's more that he wanted to keep saying the same type of things, but if he moves to a different thread he can attempt to have this holier than thou persona about how he's better than everyone, more mature, etc. and he beat the trolls. At least that's what he's telling himself.

[Keza]

You people are still circle-jerking and feeling proud about "winning" a pointless debate in a 2 word thread made by someone who admits to instigating such arguments just because you disagree with DSM 5 days after their last post.

What glory have you won? The gold medal of being "GOT EEEEM'D" harder than anyone else? Of being stubborn and indignant? Of confirmation bias? The post history will show that EQRP is the only victor and you all got baited hard. Honestly, this time around, I'm kind of impressed. It's just two words, and merely by the implications of "and go" you can tell that it's trolling. Congrats, EQRP. I got a laugh out of it.

See you next time, space cowboy.

[Troxx]

You people are still circle-jerking and feeling proud about "winning" a pointless debate in a 2 word thread made by someone who admits to instigating such arguments just because you disagree with DSM 5 days after their last post.

What glory have you won? The gold medal of being "GOT EEEEM'D" harder than anyone else? Of being stubborn and indignant? Of confirmation bias? The post history will show that EQRP is the only victor and you all got baited hard. Honestly, this time around, I'm kind of impressed. It's just two words, and merely by the implications of "and go" you can tell that it's trolling. Congrats, EQRP. I got a laugh out of it.

See you next time, space cowboy.

https://c.tenor.com/2g1Cg2TGgUkAAAAC/laughing-hysterically-cracking-up.gif

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/cwt0ZB2.gif

[PlsNoBan]

You people are still circle-jerking and feeling proud about "winning" a pointless debate in a 2 word thread made by someone who admits to instigating such arguments just because you disagree with DSM 5 days after their last post.

What glory have you won? The gold medal of being "GOT EEEEM'D" harder than anyone else? Of being stubborn and indignant? Of confirmation bias? The post history will show that EQRP is the only victor and you all got baited hard. Honestly, this time around, I'm kind of impressed. It's just two words, and merely by the implications of "and go" you can tell that it's trolling. Congrats, EQRP. I got a laugh out of it.

See you next time, space cowboy.

https://i.imgur.com/aGGrcuk.gif

[Gloomlord]

I don't know, but I sure didn't feel like I "won" per se.

More like we made sure that insanity was quelled more than anything.

[cd288]

You people are still circle-jerking and feeling proud about "winning" a pointless debate in a 2 word thread made by someone who admits to instigating such arguments just because you disagree with DSM 5 days after their last post.

What glory have you won? The gold medal of being "GOT EEEEM'D" harder than anyone else? Of being stubborn and indignant? Of confirmation bias? The post history will show that EQRP is the only victor and you all got baited hard. Honestly, this time around, I'm kind of impressed. It's just two words, and merely by the implications of "and go" you can tell that it's trolling. Congrats, EQRP. I got a laugh out of it.

See you next time, space cowboy.

Think you missed the point. He just moved to a different thread to make some of the same arguments he mad here lmao

[Chortles Snortles]

totally not his forum alt acct guise
(lol)

[Keza]

Think you missed the point. He just moved to a different thread to make some of the same arguments he mad here lmao

Ehh.. Is that the point? I think the point you guys believe in is that DSM wasn't dissuaded by your arguments. My point has nothing to do with DSM at all. The true point is obvious based on the title and the OP post. I'll give both you & Gloomlord some credit for not spamming gifs like a literal child and instead using words like an adult, but still, there's no point to this thread. It's made to bait all of you. Evidenced clearly by "best" being the only thing to go off of. Best at what? When? What expansion? What intent?

And no, rhymlord, I'm not DSM. If I had to pick a "best" 4-caster group I'd say enchx2 clrx1 drux1 based on what a 'normal' group would normally face. Again, there's no concept of "best" and therefor normal reasoning would make druid superior unless you're assuming you live in a perfect world with no resists and all camps belong to you. If you really think you exist in some dimension of P99 where 3 enchanters aren't consuming far more than a single camp's worth of mobs then... idk what to tell you. I do know that you're wrong though, and that stability is superior. A third enchanter is worthless because you'd have no mobs to kill. Shaman would be 3rd or 4th on my pick-list, depending on scenario. But that's the troll, isn't it? There is no scenario. If there was an explained scenario druid probably wouldn't be my pick. Again, that's why it's a troll.

Oh heyyyyy EQRP /wave

Weird that they still don't comprehend the concept of trolling, right? Btw, I'm sub(?)consciously thinking of you as a Deadpool-level troll now. <3

[Chortles Snortles]

hi DSM
(lol)

[PlsNoBan]

Ehh.. Is that the point? I think the point you guys believe in is that DSM wasn't dissuaded by your arguments. My point has nothing to do with DSM at all. The true point is obvious based on the title and the OP post. I'll give both you & Gloomlord some credit for not spamming gifs like a literal child and instead using words like an adult, but still, there's no point to this thread. It's made to bait all of you. Evidenced clearly by "best" being the only thing to go off of. Best at what? When? What expansion? What intent?

And no, rhymlord, I'm not DSM. If I had to pick a "best" 4-caster group I'd say enchx2 clrx1 drux1 based on what a 'normal' group would normally face. Again, there's no concept of "best" and therefor normal reasoning would make druid superior unless you're assuming you live in a perfect world with no resists and all camps belong to you. If you really think you exist in some dimension of P99 where 3 enchanters aren't consuming far more than a single camp's worth of mobs then... idk what to tell you. I do know that you're wrong though, and that stability is superior. A third enchanter is worthless because you'd have no mobs to kill. Shaman would be 3rd or 4th on my pick-list, depending on scenario. But that's the troll, isn't it? There is no scenario. If there was an explained scenario druid probably wouldn't be my pick. Again, that's why it's a troll.

Oh heyyyyy EQRP /wave

Weird that they still don't comprehend the concept of trolling, right? Btw, I'm sub(?)consciously thinking of you as a Deadpool-level troll now. <3

Sorry you're so late to this thread. Unfortunately it is now dead. Not sure why you're trying to resurrect it but I assure you everything has been discussed quite thoroughly and consensus has generally been reached. Your preferred 4 man group has merit. As with most things it's situational but druid could definitely make the cut in certain situations. The important thing is we all agree shaman isn't part of the best overall 4 man caster/priest group.

[cyxthryth]

Ehh.. Is that the point? I think the point you guys believe in is that DSM wasn't dissuaded by your arguments. My point has nothing to do with DSM at all. The true point is obvious based on the title and the OP post. I'll give both you & Gloomlord some credit for not spamming gifs like a literal child and instead using words like an adult, but still, there's no point to this thread. It's made to bait all of you. Evidenced clearly by "best" being the only thing to go off of. Best at what? When? What expansion? What intent?

And no, rhymlord, I'm not DSM. If I had to pick a "best" 4-caster group I'd say enchx2 clrx1 drux1 based on what a 'normal' group would normally face. Again, there's no concept of "best" and therefor normal reasoning would make druid superior unless you're assuming you live in a perfect world with no resists and all camps belong to you. If you really think you exist in some dimension of P99 where 3 enchanters aren't consuming far more than a single camp's worth of mobs then... idk what to tell you. I do know that you're wrong though, and that stability is superior. A third enchanter is worthless because you'd have no mobs to kill. Shaman would be 3rd or 4th on my pick-list, depending on scenario. But that's the troll, isn't it? There is no scenario. If there was an explained scenario druid probably wouldn't be my pick. Again, that's why it's a troll.

Oh heyyyyy EQRP /wave

Weird that they still don't comprehend the concept of trolling, right? Btw, I'm sub(?)consciously thinking of you as a Deadpool-level troll now. <3

Neither you nor DSM have provided the definitions for "troll"/"trolling" that you are using / the meaning you are intending to convey by your use of "troll"/"trolling".

For Keza and any other late-comers who need a catch-up or a reminder of what DSM has said & said to the contrary in this post (and then not not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the fact that he posted, then simply posted to the contrary), reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM simply has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", "new" and "win" for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[cd288]

hi DSM
(lol)

Lol I mean honestly I’m inclined to agree with you

[Toxigen]

I agree on best all-around being enc / enc / cleric / druid, and its what I suggested about 100 pages ago.

[eqravenprince]

Oh heyyyyy EQRP /wave

Weird that they still don't comprehend the concept of trolling, right? Btw, I'm sub(?)consciously thinking of you as a Deadpool-level troll now. <3

/wave

Wasn't trolling... just super casual player here asking general question. It's nice to hear opinions from general standpoint cause things are brought up that I would have never thought of. Since there isn't much perspective/viewpoints from casual folks, I will say that 3 chanters + cleric while arguably best for the average hardcore endgame player probably isn't best for casual. We currently have Shaman, Mage, Necro as our core. Enchanter dropped, but is leveling up Wiz instead.

[Toxigen]

We currently have Shaman, Mage, Necro as our core. Enchanter dropped, but is leveling up Wiz instead.

change shaman to bard then you've got something to work w/ the wiz and mage

hope this helps

[PlsNoBan]

/wave

Wasn't trolling... just super casual player here asking general question. It's nice to hear opinions from general standpoint cause things are brought up that I would have never thought of. Since there isn't much perspective/viewpoints from casual folks, I will say that 3 chanters + cleric while arguably best for the average hardcore endgame player probably isn't best for casual. We currently have Shaman, Mage, Necro as our core. Enchanter dropped, but is leveling up Wiz instead.

Almost any makeup can work for casual play. Just play what you like and you'll get by just fine! People will inevitably go down the best min/max hardcore theorycraft road when asked what the "best" is. As has been mentioned wizards aren't really a great group class but it honestly doesn't matter for casual play. Shaman mage and necro are all very powerful solo classes in their own right. Put them together and they can get shit done for sure regardless of what the 4th class is honestly. At endgame you can either go to zones with undead charms for the necro and have the pet tank or just have the shaman slow tank with casters handling most of the DPS and shaman saves mana to slow and heal itself. Root rotting won't work particularly well since the pets will end up tanking and mage nukes will break root constantly but there's plenty of options. You could have the necro fear kite stuff outdoors.etc

[Danth]

Almost any makeup can work for casual play.

Depends on how you define "casual." You can level with most anything, sure. However, as one example, there are a lot of things the wife and I could do with our shadowknight/shaman duo that we could not do with other duos. Our old duo (cleric/paladin) from when we started on P99 in 2009 was much less capable. So composition does matter.

Nearly any 4-man starting out from scratch is going to lose someone or several someones along the way. That's part of why I advocate building premade groups with role redundancy in mind. A "perfect" group doesn't do any good if it loses a critical linchpin. In this specific case, the enchanter isn't strictly critical--the shaman/necromancer make a strong duo just on their own and can more or less carry the others, if needed--but they'll definitely feel the slower killrate.

Danth

[Karanis]

19183

[Tunabros]

enchanter enchanter shaman cleric

or 3 enchanters 1 cleric

[Tunabros]

wait why the fuck does this thread have 372 pages

[Gloomlord]

wait why the fuck does this thread have 372 pages

Don't want to spoil the surprise. Just read from the beginning and work your way up.

[magnetaress]

Cleric. Shaman. Necro. Mage.

Or 4 necros.

Or cleric and three mages.

[Tunabros]

Cleric. Shaman. Necro. Mage.

Or 4 necros.

Or cleric and three mages.

are u a retard

[magnetaress]

are u a retard

https://i.imgur.com/Dn6qnKx.jpeg


Cleric. Shaman. Necro. Mage.

Or 4 necros.

Or cleric and three mages.

Also these groups are simply amazing.

[Tunabros]

tf is a necro gonna do in that group if youre not in howling stones

[magnetaress]

tf is a necro gonna do in that group if youre not in howling stones

Everything. Necros do everything.

2cnd fear. Snare. (Uber snare too can use highest lvl one indoors and with mage and shm pets it gets viable)

Can pump mana around or heal.


Can dot with shm while mage does earth pet shenanigans with cleric.

Big ez mode lazy plays which requires zero charms. Still all the while decent dps.

Not top. Butt pretty good enough. Especially to get big loot mobs. At tough camps. Easily.

[cd288]

are u a retard

"Hey guys I'm leaving because I just had a child and now I'm a dad!"

A week later is back on the forums calling people "retards" in non-RnF forums. Sounds like you should really be raising a child...

[Toxigen]

top 10 elfsim forum threads

[Allishia]

I think an all mage group would be fun /nod.

[PlsNoBan]

Lol I remember this thread. Good times.

[Karanis]

19456

19459

19457

19458

[Toxigen]

what is dead may never die

[Varren]

Someone really ought to make a film about this thread. How one controversial take on the minutia of an archaic video game can consume hundreds? thousands? of collective hours of time spread among this forum community.

It is deeply fascinating. So many layers to pick apart

Matt Damon in the lead role for sure

[Jimjam]

Someone really ought to make a film about this thread. How one controversial take on the minutia of an archaic video game can consume hundreds? thousands? of collective hours of time spread among this forum community.

It is deeply fascinating. So many layers to pick apart

Matt Damon in the lead role for sure

All these posters going on about the most time efficient class for the quattro spending enough time posting here to level a rogue solo to 60.

[Toxigen]

friendly reminder bump that this actually happened

[Bardp1999]

My favorite group is Shaman/Necro/Monk/Enchanter

Between shadow bond and the shaman heals are fine, necro monk enchanter pump some serious DPS, its just the greatest XP quad IMO and can handle most anything.

Why would anyone even want an all caster group unless it just happened to fall that way. Also DSM is a retard

[eqravenprince]

Thanks Toxigen for resurrecting this thread!

My favorite group is Shaman/Necro/Monk/Enchanter

Between shadow bond and the shaman heals are fine, necro monk enchanter pump some serious DPS, its just the greatest XP quad IMO and can handle most anything.

Why would anyone even want an all caster group unless it just happened to fall that way. Also DSM is a retard

Non casters less efficient for 99% group content is one reason why.

[Toxigen]

after 374 pages the answer is still 3x enchanter, cleric

[CrunchyMoogle]

I'm new here, but the restrictions are kinda odd. If you want a tank/healer/dps setup shaman/cleric/ench/+ might work, but it sounds like OP wants to try something unorthodox.

Could you technically get away with 4 enchanters?

[magethis]

these are fun;

shaman druid necro bard - has crazy root rot potential

[Toxigen]

The only way this isn't 3x enc + 1 cleric is if you impose a rule that it has to be 4 unique classes.

[Trexller]

The only way this isn't 3x enc + 1 cleric is if you impose a rule that it has to be 4 unique classes.

people just like to think they are heard, 99% of posts on this forum is "My idea, no my idea, no my idea, this idea, that idea"

without consideration of any "good idea"

yes, its 3x ench + clr

[Toxigen]

hi dsm

[Dajeeem]

Necro, necro, necro , necro

[Seducio]

Wake Me Up When September Ends (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU9JoFKlaZ0)

[Toxigen]

hi again

[Toxigen]

never forget

[DeathsSilkyMist]

never forget

Indeed.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3611344&postcount=21

Best trio w/o cleric (and no 2x of 1 class) is enc / shaman / monk (can sub in pally/sk/war here but monk is best).

Could also argue enc / necro / shaman and sticking to undead charm spots. Don't have to focus on keeping pets alive but rather sending them into big packs of mobs and letting all the adds do the damage.

This thread simply shows who the trolls are on this forum. Keep bumping it. They got into a manic state where they had to "prove me wrong", because people don't seem to like debates or discussions on this forum. Then they just agree with me a few months later, because the dynamic of the game hasn't changed much in terms of what classes are good in the past few years.

Toxigen tries not to sound hypocritical by trying to inject the "No Cleric No 2x 1 class rules", but he wouldn't be saying Enchanter/Shaman/Monk or Enchanter/Necromancer/Shaman is a good combo if he disagreed with me in this thread.

[Lampolo]

Another never ending thread of dsm not understanding

[Gloomlord]

Indeed.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3611344&postcount=21



This thread simply shows who the trolls are on this forum. Keep bumping it. They got into a manic state where they had to "prove me wrong", because people don't seem to like debates or discussions on this forum. Then they just agree with me a few months later, because the dynamic of the game hasn't changed much in terms of what classes are good in the past few years.

Toxigen tries not to sound hypocritical by trying to inject the "No Cleric No 2x 1 class rules", but he wouldn't be saying Enchanter/Shaman/Monk or Enchanter/Necromancer/Shaman is a good combo if he disagreed with me in this thread.

We weren't trolls for disagreeing with you, DSM.

Mage is a better class for group DPS. End of story.

Act like a mature adult and admit that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We weren't trolls for disagreeing with you, DSM.

Mage is a better class for group DPS. End of story.

Act like a mature adult and admit that.

"Do what I want or I am going to get mad!". You sound like a mature adult indeed. This thread is 375 pages long because of that kind of trolling and strawman arguments. I am not sure how you could read my post as "trolling is disagreeing with me". Thank you for proving my point again.

[Gloomlord]

Nobody is going to take your pathetic comebacks seriously once they read this thread.

People like you make others lose faith in the human race, DSM. You argue over something so innocuous and inconsequential, which is that somehow shamans are better DPS than mages, because you're afraid of being wrong.

I don't know whether you've noticed this or not, but this game is extremely easy to figure out. A person on their way to 60 doing groups will quickly discover that mages out DPS shamans by a significant amount. DPS metres aren't necessary, either, to discover the truth. Whenever we tried to provide you data anyway, you moved the goalposts every single time.

It's just EverQuest, you child! It's just another video game with characters/classes that have been analysed for more than 2 decades. We all know mage is superior as a DPSer. This is an open and shut case here. You'd make a religious zealot blush with your behaviour.

Just give it up already.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nobody is going to take your pathetic comebacks seriously once they read this thread.

People like you make others lose faith in the human race, DSM. You argue over something so innocuous and inconsequential, which is that somehow shamans are better DPS than mages, because you're afraid of being wrong.

I don't know whether you've noticed this or not, but this game is extremely easy to figure out. A person on their way to 60 doing groups will quickly discover that mages out DPS shamans by a significant amount. DPS metres aren't necessary, either, to discover the truth. Whenever we tried to provide you data anyway, you moved the goalposts every single time.

It's just EverQuest, you child! It's just another video game with characters/classes that have been analysed for more than 2 decades. We all know mage is superior as a DPSer. This is an open and shut case here. You'd make a religious zealot blush with your behaviour.

Just give it up already.

Again, this is why the thread is 375 pages. Please improve your reading comprehension, or stop trolling.

[Gloomlord]

I'm sorry, did you think this reply makes any sense?

The thread has exposed you long ago for the psychopathic man child you are. You would do well to bow out and never return.

I didn't even want this thread bumped again. But if you're going to make a post saying this thread "exposed the trolls", when you should have left well enough alone, then you are the most pathetic human being I've ever seen on the internet.

Just fuck off already.