Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Elizondo]

It is indeed tragic. I can back up my arguments with evidence for two years. In two years the pro Cleric side still can't provide evidence to suport their claims, and they have more people. You'd think they would be able to provide something over this timescale.

Nothing you've posted trying to back up your claims is compelling

The truth is self evident

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nothing you've posted trying to back up your claims is compelling

The truth is self evident

This is the best the pro Cleric side can do sadly. Two years of this.

[Elizondo]

This is the best the pro Cleric side can do sadly. Two years of this.

2 years in and literally nobody agrees with you

Maybe by 2026 you'll win a few over but I doubt it

[Vexenu]

DSM cannot refute the power of Cleric Lull/DA and so conveniently ignores it entirely.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM cannot refute the power of Cleric Lull/DA and so conveniently ignores it entirely.

I understand lull and DA. 2x Enchanters have lull too, and you haven't shown why you think DA usage is better than what a Shaman does. You can also buy Earring of the Frozen Skull for DA. Racharges are a gold.

2 years in and literally nobody agrees with you.

You can't prove this, and OP picked a Shaman. No cleric. This is the best you can do. Lie and be silly.

[Vexenu]

Yeah just buy a 100k earring at level 60 to replace the spell the Cleric buys for 4 copper at level 1. Then leave your dungeon camp and recharge it after every use! It's totally the same thing!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah just buy a 100k earring at level 60 to replace the spell the Cleric buys for 4 copper at level 1. Then leave your dungeon camp and recharge it after every use! It's totally the same thing!

Explain the scenarios in which a level 30 Cleric is using DA to just catapult this group to 60 way faster than a Shaman.

Explain the camps that would drastically benefit from casted DA over a Shaman with Earring. You can also swap an Enchanter for a Necro. They have DA too.

Also remember that a 3x Enchanter group would need to spend around 100k total for 3x copies of their spells. If they can get 100k once, they can do it again.

[Elizondo]

You can't prove this, and OP picked a Shaman. No cleric. This is the best you can do. Lie and be silly.

OP stated they didn't pick the optimal setup

Burden of proof is on you to provide evidence you've changed hearts and minds

Good Luck

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP stated they didn't pick the optimal setup

Burden of proof is on you to provide evidence you've changed hearts and minds

Good Luck

Clearly the argument against Shaman was less persuasive.

Are you suggesting OP just randomly picked Shaman, without any influence from this thread?

[Elizondo]

Clearly the argument against Shaman was less persuasive.

Are you suggesting OP just randomly picked Shaman, without any influence from this thread?

Pretty sure OP didn't even pick shaman but necro lawl

Thank you for all the feedback. I think everyone has a lot of great ideas/thoughts on this subject. We went with shaman, enchanter and 2 necros. I'm the one playing the extra necro. I could have gone enchanter or mage, but with kids/wife it's nice to just feign death and afk at a moments notice. But I do agree in theory that possibly either of those classes offered a bit more than an extra necro.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pretty sure OP didn't even pick shaman but necro lawl

So you are suggesting they picked Shaman without any input from OP? Or are you claiming they didn't read the thread too? Interesting. Evidence?

[Elizondo]

So you are suggesting they picked Shaman without any input from OP? Or are you claiming they didn't read the thread too? Interesting. Evidence?

People pick classes they want to play all the time. EQ Happens.

You are the only person who has been posting in this thread (For 2 Years lawl omg SAD and PATHETIC) that shaman is better than a cleric when paired with an Enchanter

Give it up loser

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People pick classes they want to play all the time. EQ Happens.

You are the only person who has been posting in this thread (For 2 Years lawl omg SAD and PATHETIC) that shaman is better than a cleric when paired with an Enchanter

Give it up loser

This is the best you can do. No evidence I see. Thank you for conceding the that you cannot prove everybody disagrees with me, or that OP's party picked Shaman completely at random, without any influence from this thread.

Two years of this nonsense, instead of two years of accumulating evidence to make your case against Shamans.

Remember that OP went Shaman/Enchanter, not Cleric/Enchanter.

[Elizondo]

This is the best you can do. No evidence I see. Thank you for conceding the that you cannot prove everybody disagrees with me, or that OP's party picked Shaman completely at random, without any influence from this thread.

Two years of this nonsense, instead of two years of accumulating evidence to make your case against Shamans.

2 years of you flailing and making a total fool out of yourself

Pure Comedy

ENC / CLR is better than ENC / SHM

Accept it

[Trexller]

Dps has diminishing returns, that is why having 3x Enchanters doesn't enable any new content. This is because respawn timers exist.

i'm starting to feel like this thread's title is incomplete, like it should have been, "Best 4 person all caster/priest group for XX content/mobs

or im totally missing something, which is likely as at this time i've been awake for 32 hours, no not gaming unfortunately, just life stuff

See even if I agree with your overall EQ-specific arguments, you lose all credibility when you talk like this

https://prod-cdn-08.storenvy.com/product_photos/16823121/this_20is_20my_20design_Poster_tumblr_400w.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i'm starting to feel like this thread's title is incomplete, like it should have been, "Best 4 person all caster/priest group for XX content/mobs

or im totally missing something, which is likely as at this time i've been awake for 32 hours, no not gaming unfortunately, just life stuff


You are not missing anything. There were no rules other than the title of the thread.

Get some sleep!

[Troxx]

https://media4.giphy.com/media/12B1VuYl9Fi7QI/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952ghqi3323s4f8y4cl44dvdzu1i5kef 2cclcc32xjm&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP picked Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Necro.

Troxx has spent two years attacking autistic people, thinking this somehow supports his opinion about Mages and Clerics. That's the best he can do.

Seems pretty clear what the result of this thread is.

[Elizondo]

OP picked Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Necro.

Troxx has spent two years attacking autistic people, thinking this somehow supports his opinion about Mages and Clerics. That's the best he can do.

Seems pretty clear what the result of this thread is.

You've been posting in this thread for 2 years and have yet to convince anyone SHM / ENC is better than CLR / ENC

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You've been posting in this thread for 2 years and have yet to convince anyone SHM / ENC is better than CLR / ENC

lol

Still denying what OP's party picked, it was Enchanter/Shaman. Seems like you are the one who can't convince people of your argument.

[Elizondo]

Still denying what OP's party picked, it was Enchanter/Shaman. Seems like you are the one who can't convince people of your argument.

Class preference over optimization. EQ Happens.

They didn't say SHM / ENC was better than CLR / ENC

The opposite actually

lol

2 years of your life down the drain yelling at the clouds

riCtdIJicXA

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Class preference over optimization. EQ Happens.


Would you be saying the same thing if OP picked Cleric? It was just class preference, your argument had nothing to do with it?


They didn't say SHM / ENC was better than CLR / ENC

The opposite actually


Please quote OP saying Cleric/Enchanter is better than Shaman/Enchanter.

[Elizondo]

Would you be saying the same thing if OP picked Cleric? It was just class preference, your argument had nothing to do with it?

I'm not claiming one of the OP's friends picked shaman because you convinced them SHM / ENC is better than CLR / ENC

You have to prove that. You made the claim. Prove it.

Please quote OP saying Cleric/Enchanter is better than Shaman/Enchanter.

See above

Your games and goal post shifting are so laughably pathetic and transparent

2 years you've been wasting your life in this thread lol

Embarrassing

[eqravenprince]

OP here... I purposely kept my post vague cause I enjoy all the banter back and forth and theorycrafting. Didn't expect it to go 500+ pages however. Group didn't last, but this thread will live forever thanks to Toxigen who ressurects it every few months. Then DSM eventually responds, and he is a lightning rod for replies from the peanut gallery causing this post to go another 50 pages. I predict this will hit 1000 by this time next year.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP here... I purposely kept my post vague cause I enjoy all the banter back and forth and theorycrafting. Didn't expect it to go 500+ pages however. Group didn't last, but this thread will live forever thanks to Toxigen who ressurects it every few months. Then DSM eventually responds, and he is a lightning rod for replies from the peanut gallery causing this post to go another 50 pages. I predict this will hit 1000 by this time next year.

Good to see you again! Unfortunately the peanut gallery continues.

I'm not claiming one of the OP's friends picked shaman because you convinced them

The one making the claim here is yourself:

Class preference over optimization.

You are explicitly claiming this happened. You are one who needs to prove it lol.

I am just stating what happened, which is they picked Shaman. That is an indicator you weren't convincing.

[Vexenu]

DSM, do you truly believe that a Shaman is the best overall duo with an Enchanter? Or just the best level 60 endgame duo? Or just the best duo for killing certain mobs?

If you affirm Enchanter/Shaman as the overall best, do you concede any circumstances in which you would admit Enchanter/Druid or Enchanter/Cleric to be superior? For example, say you wanted the fastest leveling duo. Or if you wanted a duo that specialized in dungeon crawling. Or if you wanted a duo that was viable with the least amount of gear. Or if you wanted a duo that was the most self-sufficient.

Do you leave room for the superiority of Enchanter/Cleric or Enchanter/Druid duos for any of the above scenarios? Or do you ferociously hold fast to the notion that Enchanter/Shaman is completely superior across the board?

I reach out to you in good faith with this question, and urge you to set aside your well-known bias toward swamp magic as you consider your answer.

[Elizondo]

Good to see you again! Unfortunately the peanut gallery continues.



The one making the claim here is yourself:



You are explicitly claiming this happened. You are one who needs to prove it lol.

I am just stating what happened, which is they picked Shaman. That is an indicator you weren't convincing.

The OP picked NECRO dummy

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, do you truly believe that a Shaman is the best overall duo with an Enchanter? Or just the best level 60 endgame duo? Or just the best duo for killing certain mobs?

If you affirm Enchanter/Shaman as the overall best, do you concede any circumstances in which you would admit Enchanter/Druid or Enchanter/Cleric to be superior? For example, say you wanted the fastest leveling duo. Or if you wanted a duo that specialized in dungeon crawling. Or if you wanted a duo that was viable with the least amount of gear. Or if you wanted a duo that was the most self-sufficient.

Do you leave room for the superiority of Enchanter/Cleric or Enchanter/Druid duos for any of the above scenarios? Or do you ferociously hold fast to the notion that Enchanter/Shaman is completely superior across the board?

I reach out to you in good faith with this question, and urge you to set aside your well-known bias toward swamp magic as you consider your answer.

Unfortunately you are assuming I have an extreme bias towards Shamans, and then coloring how you view my posts from that perspective. This has never been true, it is just a straw man.

Please show me the quote where I say "Shamans are the best at everything no matter what". You won't find it.

We have been talking about overall best 4 player caster/priest group the entire time. Did you think otherwise? Just to make sure you don't twist my words, my default assesment of "overall" is mostly endgame focused, instead of leveling focused. This is because the point of leveling is to get to 60, and a four player caster group is already leveling fast. If you want to put a large emphasis on leveling, there are probably all sorts of caster groups who could level faster in certain level ranges. A four player Mage group is probably leveling faster than a four player Enchanter group from levels 1-12, because Enchanters don't get charm until 12. But I doubt anyone cares about optimizing levels 1-12, they are easy already. That is why "overall" is mostly an assessment of how the group works in the endgame.

Of course there are scenarios where other classes are better. Druids are better at killing Ice Burrowers compared to Shamans, as a simple exmaple. I don't see anyone clamoring over Ice Burrowers as a camp people really want to do, so I don't really include Ice Burrower kill efficiency into this discussion. If there was an alternate universe where Ice Burrower killing was the only thing that mattered on P99, 4x Druids would be my choice in that alternate universe.

The OP picked NECRO dummy

I didn't say otherwise. I said OP's group picked Shaman. You do realize OP asked about four classes, not one? The logic is that OP asked for advise about four classes, so they could pass this information on to the other three players.

OP can correct me if they didn't actually tell the group anything, but are you suggesting you believe that OP asked about four classes just so they could pick their own class without talking to the group?

[Vexenu]

I submit the following videos as clear and indisputable evidence that Enchanter/Shaman is inferior to Enchanter/Cleric. In this first video, at 1:55 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI#t=1m55s), we find DSM grouped with two Enchanters in HS. Things take a turn for the worse when charm breaks unexpectedly, and contrary to DSM's insistence that a Shaman can easily help an Enchanter recover from a bad break, we see that DSM's Enchanter is at 3% health before he can even get a heal off, and is only saved because the other Enchanter landed a last second mez!

jG1Aat1XdbI#t=1m55s


In contrast, I found the following video of a random Enchanter/Cleric duo in HS. At 57 minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLWkDSDLcWk#t=57m), we see the Enchanter suffer a very ill-timed charm break just as she is pulling, compounded by some repops. It's almost a worst case scenario, but as we can see, the Cleric not only has a stun and burst healing to help the Enchanter survive, but is able to leverage the power of CH to keep the golem pet alive through a very hairy situation. Needless to say, a Shaman would have been absolutely hopeless in this scenario.

TLWkDSDLcWk

This is not theorycraft or mere idle speculation, these are real gameplay videos, one of which features the very antagonist of this thread himself! And now, DSM, with such incontrovertible evidence before you, I demand that you concede.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I submit the following videos as clear and indisputable evidence that Enchanter/Shaman is inferior to Enchanter/Cleric. In this first video, at 1:55 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI#t=1m55s), we find DSM grouped with two Enchanters in HS. Things take a turn for the worse when charm breaks unexpectedly, and contrary to DSM's insistence that a Shaman can easily help an Enchanter recover from a bad break, we see that DSM's Enchanter is at 3% health before he can even get a heal off, and is only saved because the other Enchanter landed a last second mez!

jG1Aat1XdbI#t=1m55s


In contrast, I found the following video of a random Enchanter/Cleric duo in HS. At 57 minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLWkDSDLcWk#t=57m), we see the Enchanter suffer a very ill-timed charm break just as she is pulling, compounded by some repops. It's almost a worst case scenario, but as we can see, the Cleric not only has a stun and burst healing to help the Enchanter survive, but is able to leverage the power of CH to keep the golem pet alive through a very hairy situation. Needless to say, a Shaman would have been absolutely hopeless in this scenario.

TLWkDSDLcWk

This is not theorycraft or mere idle speculation, these are real gameplay videos, one of which features the very antagonist of this thread himself! And now, DSM, with such incontrovertible evidence before you, I demand that you concede.

This is desparate for sure. This wasn't an example video showing peak Enchanter/Shaman play. The other group members weren't even 60.

The Enchanter in question wasn't using rune when he started. You can see the chat logs, there are no "magical skin" messages. It seems like they were fairly new to either the game and/or the class.

You are basically using examples of lower skill players as evidence, which is silly. If an Enchanter isn't using Rune by the upper 50s, that is not the fault of the Shaman class.

[Vexenu]

This is a bad attempt at grasping for straws. This wasn't an example video showing peak Enchanter/Shaman play. The other group members weren't even 60. The Enchanter in question wasn't using rune, it seems like they were fairly new to either the game or the class.

You are basically using examples of lower skill players as evidence, which is silly.

My friend, it's your own video. Please, be kind to yourself!

Further, you are completely unable to refute the fact that the Shaman class, even if piloted by the best player in the world, would have been unable to prevent a wipe like the Cleric did in the second video. This is because Shamans simply DO NOT provide the same degree of support for a charming Enchanter that a Cleric does. It's clear and incontrovertible in the video. Everyone can see that you've been talking out of your rear end, I'm afraid. Your bluster and theorycrafting fall flat in the face of such overwhelmingly compelling evidence, which is why you must now concede to avoid further embarrassment.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My friend, it's your own video. Please, be kind to yourself!

Further, you are completely unable to refute the fact that the Shaman class, even if piloted by the best player in the world, would have been unable to prevent a wipe like the Cleric did in the second video. This is because Shamans simply DO NOT provide the same degree of support for a charming Enchanter that a Cleric does. It's clear and incontrovertible in the video. Everyone can see that you've been talking out of your rear end, I'm afraid. Your bluster and theorycrafting fall flat in the face of such overwhelmingly compelling evidence, which is why you must now concede to avoid further embarrassment.

Desparation and trolling. Tell me, is it a Shaman's fault that an upper 50s Enchanter does not use rune when attempting to start working on 4 mobs, before the encounter started? Th enchanter would be at like 40% health if they had used Rune V.

You were so excited to find a gotcha, you didn't actually watch the video.

[Vexenu]

Desparation and trolling. Tell me, is it a Shaman's fault that an upper 50s Enchanter does not use rune when attempting to start working on 4 mobs, before the encounter started? Th enchanter would be at like 50% health if they had used Rune V.
Let it be noted that the Enchanter in the second video was also not runed when charm broke, and that the Cleric was also a bit slow to react to the break, and yet they both still survived.

Clerics are simply much better at keeping Enchanters alive when charm breaks at an inopportune moment (as it inevitably will over even a modest duration grind session, regardless if Malo is used). Everyone who has played a good amount of EQ recognizes this fact intuitively, except you, due to your bizarre obsession with the Shaman class. But now we have clear and incontrovertible video evidence that disproves your wild claims once and for all.

And now you must concede, apologize to the forum for continuing this ridiculous charade over the course of two years and 500 pages, put your Shaman on the shelf for a minimum of three months and commit to leveling a Cleric twink.

[Elizondo]

I didn't say otherwise. I said OP's group picked Shaman. You do realize OP asked about four classes, not one? The logic is that OP asked for advise about four classes, so they could pass this information on to the other three players.

OP can correct me if they didn't actually tell the group anything, but are you suggesting you believe that OP asked about four classes just so they could pick their own class without talking to the group?

You're claiming the OP's friend picked shaman because SHM / ENC is better than CLR / ENC

Prove it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're claiming the OP's friend picked shaman because SHM / ENC is better than CLR / ENC

Prove it

I didn't claim it. I stated the fact that a Shaman was picked, and that OP probably provided the informatiom they got from this thread. You can logically see what might have hapoened from there.

As I said, OP is free to correct this if it is wrong. The only one with the claim is yourself. You are claiming they just picked the class they liked. You need to prove it.

[Elizondo]

I didn't claim it. I stated the fact that a Shaman was picked, and that OP probably provided the informatiom they got from this thread. You can logically see what might have hapoened from there.

As I said, OP is free to correct this if it is wrong. The only one with the claim is yourself. You are claiming they just picked the class they liked. You need to prove it.

You made assumptions based on zero evidence

Maybe they just liked shaman better out of preference for play style

It doesn't mean you convinced them SHM / ENC is better than CLR / ENC

What's hilarious is that is literally the only possible convert you are desperately clinging to

2 years of absolute failure. Sucks to be you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let it be noted that the Enchanter in the second video was also not runed when charm broke, and that the Cleric was also a bit slow to react to the break, and yet they both still survived.

Clerics are simply much better at keeping Enchanters alive when charm breaks at an inopportune moment (as it inevitably will over even a modest duration grind session, regardless if Malo is used). Everyone who has played a good amount of EQ recognizes this fact intuitively, except you, due to your bizarre obsession with the Shaman class. But now we have clear and incontrovertible video evidence that disproves your wild claims once and for all.

And now you must concede, apologize to the forum for continuing this ridiculous charade over the course of two years and 500 pages, put your Shaman on the shelf for a minimum of three months and commit to leveling a Cleric twink.

The scenario was different. These two videos do not show the exact same situation.

The Enchanter I was playing with got hit by two mobs at the same time, was lower level, should have been using rune for the situation, and probably had worse gear compared to a Riot Enchanter. In your video, the Enchanter was taking damage from one mob in the beginning, and the Cleric had more time to react.

You also forget the Enchanter survived in my video too. They simply didn't use Rune, which is why they were so low.

Again, this is just desparate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You made assumptions based on zero evidence.

No, that was you:


Class preference over optimization. EQ Happens.

[Duik]

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[Troxx]

I submit the following videos as clear and indisputable evidence that Enchanter/Shaman is inferior to Enchanter/Cleric. In this first video, at 1:55 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI#t=1m55s), we find DSM grouped with two Enchanters in HS. Things take a turn for the worse when charm breaks unexpectedly, and contrary to DSM's insistence that a Shaman can easily help an Enchanter recover from a bad break, we see that DSM's Enchanter is at 3% health before he can even get a heal off, and is only saved because the other Enchanter landed a last second mez!

jG1Aat1XdbI#t=1m55s


In contrast, I found the following video of a random Enchanter/Cleric duo in HS. At 57 minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLWkDSDLcWk#t=57m), we see the Enchanter suffer a very ill-timed charm break just as she is pulling, compounded by some repops. It's almost a worst case scenario, but as we can see, the Cleric not only has a stun and burst healing to help the Enchanter survive, but is able to leverage the power of CH to keep the golem pet alive through a very hairy situation. Needless to say, a Shaman would have been absolutely hopeless in this scenario.

TLWkDSDLcWk

This is not theorycraft or mere idle speculation, these are real gameplay videos, one of which features the very antagonist of this thread himself! And now, DSM, with such incontrovertible evidence before you, I demand that you concede.


lol


owned

Edit: and yeah watching that situation … you are a pretty shitty shaman. Rule number one of playing with a charming chanter is to keep them at full health. Rule 2 is to stop everything else you are doing and heal or help them immediately.

Your judgement and reaction times are shit

[Elizondo]

No, that was you:

The OP stated it wasn't necessarily the best most optimal choices

You even quoted it

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol


owned

Not at all. Unfortunately Vexenu got too excited, and provided a bad comparison.

If you think it is the healer's fault an Enchanter didn't use rune when running into the middle of four mobs, you don't understand healers, Enchanters, or strategy.


Edit: and yeah watching that situation … you are a pretty shitty shaman. Rule number one of playing with a charming chanter is to keep them at full health. Rule 2 is to stop everything else you are doing and heal or help them immediately.

Your judgement and reaction times are shit

I didn't claim this was a peak performance video. This was a pickup group of random players, and the Enchanter was not very familiar with their class. It was harder to predict what they were going to do in the moment, such as not using Rune. It is easy for you to critisize since you never post videos of yourself. I wonder why that is.

The funny thing is if I am shit, then that means another Shaman could do better. This doesn't help the argument for Shamans being unable to handle these scenarios.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The OP stated it wasn't necessarily the best most optimal choices

You even quoted it

lol

You read the quote wrong:

Thank you for all the feedback. I think everyone has a lot of great ideas/thoughts on this subject. We went with shaman, enchanter and 2 necros. I'm the one playing the extra necro. I could have gone enchanter or mage, but with kids/wife it's nice to just feign death and afk at a moments notice. But I do agree in theory that possibly either of those classes offered a bit more than an extra necro.

He is talking about the efficiency of Necro vs. Mage or Enchanter with regards to his choice of Necro. Not the efficiency of the rest of the group.

[Elizondo]

He is talking about the efficiency of Necro vs. Mage or Enchanter with regards to his choice of Necro. Not the efficiency of the rest of the group.

Ok so then your entire premise is a strawman

The guy that actually picked the shaman needs to confirm you managed to convert him to your one man cult

Again, good luck

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok so then your entire premise is a strawman

The guy that actually picked the shaman needs to confirm you managed to convert him to your one man cult

Again, good luck

I didn't make a claim saying the Shaman without a doubt took my advice. You can check my post history.

You are the one that needs to prove everybody disagrees with me, that was your original claim that started this.

I pointed out that the group picked Shaman over a Cleric. This means there is a chance they took my advice. The evidence throws your claim into doubt until it can be confirmed or denied.

[Elizondo]

I didn't make a claim saying the Shaman without a doubt took my advice. You can check my post history.

You are the one that needs to prove everybody disagrees with me, that was your original claim that started this.

I pointed out that the group picked Shaman over a Cleric. This means there is a chance they took my advice. The evidence throws your claim into doubt until it can be confirmed or denied.

Nope

You have to prove you've changed hearts and minds with your 2 years of buffoonery

You 'tried' by citing the OP's friend choosing shaman for their group (without evidence)

500 Pages, untold views and reads

Can you prove without a shadow of a doubt you convinced anyone?

lawl

[Elizondo]

This means there is a chance they took my advice.

zMRrNY0pxfM

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nope

You have to prove you've changed hearts and minds with your 2 years of buffoonery

You 'tried' by citing the OP's friend choosing shaman for their group (without evidence)

500 Pages, untold views and reads

Can you prove without a shadow of a doubt you convinced anyone?

lawl

You made the claim that everyone disagrees with me.

OP's group picked Shaman over Ceric, which shows there are people who may have been persuaded by me.

Your claim that everybody disagrees with me is in doubt until this can be resolved.

Your claim that they picked Shaman merely because of preference is without merit, as you have no evidence for it.

[Ripqozko]

This is what Kittens has turned into, a guild full of DSM. Join at your own risk.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is what Kittens has turned into, a guild full of DSM. Join at your own risk.

He just repeats the same nonsense message in random threads. It continues to be ignored. I'm still interested to see what his next message is, he randomly changes them from time to time. They've all been ignored so far, so I don't have much hope for the next one.

It's bad trolling from a proven troll.

https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634510&postcount=367

I troll lot but even I tried having a normal conversation with some good info based on my experience with gear. Sta is not as easy to max on a DE. If I went int I’d be in a super hole. Even atm I need like vulak bracer to cap with 1h.

Edit: all he did was shit on it even tho I showed what I have

He doesn't like when people disagree with him, so he trolls.

[Elizondo]

You made the claim that everyone disagrees with me.

OP's group picked Shaman over Ceric, which shows there are people who may have been persuaded by me.

Your claim that everybody disagrees with me is in doubt until this can be resolved.

Your claim that they picked Shaman merely because of preference is without merit, as you have no evidence for it.

Who agrees with you?

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Who agrees with you?

lol

So far you have no evidence to suggest everybody disagrees with me. Thank you for the consession on this silly claim you made.

[Elizondo]

So far you have no evidence to suggest everybody disagrees with me. Thank you for the consession on this silly claim you made.

Just give me one name

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just give me one name

You made the claim everybody disagrees with me. It's up to you to prove it. I am not responsible for the evidence you need for your own claim. OP's party selection picking Shaman over Cleric already throws your claim into doubt.

[Troxx]

https://gifdb.com/images/high/no-you-are-michael-scott-the-office-wwq21ix09b8sx4ur.gif

[Elizondo]

You made the claim everybody disagrees with me. It's up to you to prove it. I am not responsible for the evidence you need for your own claim. OP's party selection picking Shaman over Cleric already throws your claim into doubt.

2 years of your life wasting away in this thread

Just give me one name

[DeathsSilkyMist]

2 years of your life wasting away in this thread

Just give me one name

Sorry you made a claim that cannot be backed up, and are trying to walk it back and move the goalposts. Think before you post next time.

[Troxx]

Sorry you made a claim that cannot be backed up, and are trying to walk it back and move the goalposts. Think before you post next timr.

Hypocrisy much?

Hey … how about you name that camp that requires a shaman? You said you could name a few.

How about just one?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hypocrisy much?

Hey … how about you name that camp that requires a shaman? You said you could name a few.

How about just one?

I already answered this question multiple times. Playing word games and asking it over and over is just spam.

[Troxx]

No. You have not named a single camp that needs (ie requires and can’t otherwise be done without) a shaman.

You said you could name a few.

Sorry you made a claim that cannot be backed up and are trying to walk it back and move goalposts.

See what happened there?

Hypocrisy

[Troxx]

It’s ok. It’s not the first time you’ve very confidently stated bullshit that simply wasn’t true.

With enough Clerics any class can survive AoW. You usually just don't have guilds fielding 100+ Clerics.

Remember that gem? You say weird, blatantly untrue crap all the time … and you do so with such certainty.

It is hilarious.

Oh yeah, also check my sig.

[Vexenu]

It’s ok. It’s not the first time you’ve very confidently stated bullshit that simply wasn’t true.


A couple more for the list!

I've saved Enchanters from Charm breaks as a Shaman too.



On a charm break you can do other things like root or slow if the situation is bad by the way. Malo may have prevented thr break too.

DSM loves to theorycraft and bullshit about how easily a Shaman can save an Enchanter on a charm break. But unfortunately we have video evidence of what actually happens when charm breaks and DSM is playing Shaman (at 1m 55s):

jG1Aat1XdbI#t=1m55s

DSM logic: Enchanter/Shaman is a very fine duo, as long as you have a pocket Enchanter to mez on charm breaks!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No. You have not named a single camp that needs (ie requires and can’t otherwise be done without) a shaman.

You said you could name a few.

Sorry you made a claim that cannot be backed up and are trying to walk it back and move goalposts.

See what happened there?

Hypocrisy

You are just playing word games with the word need, because you couldn't answer my original question about what camps need a Cleric. You admitted no camp needs a Cleric.

This is a common tactic of yours, because you cannot argue on the substance of the discussion

You are taking the extreme interpretation of the word need, while I was not. Nor did I ever say this should be the extreme interpretation.

People will often say "you need a Cleric for Xenovorash so the Warrior can stay alive". The word need is true enough in the context of how people play the game, they understand what you meant by need.

Taking the extreme interpretation of the word need would mean you would disagree, because a Warrior could be kept alive against Xenovorash if you had 100 Druids patch healing in a chain. Its not normal to take the extreme interpretation of the word "need" on these grounds in normal conversation about game mechanics.

Now, go back and read what I said. You'll find the camps.

[Troxx]

You are just playing word games with the word need,.

What??? lol

Words do have actual definitions …

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/need

In this case you used the version of “need” that was a transitive verb. And don’t feed be BS about extreme vs soft “definitions”. You said there aren’t camps that need clerics followed by the claim that you could name several camps that need a shaman.

Are you insane? Smoking crack? Or is English a second language for you?

Like literally wtf lol

[Elizondo]

Sorry you made a claim that cannot be backed up, and are trying to walk it back and move the goalposts. Think before you post next time.

You can't provide one name

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What??? lol

Words do have actual definition …

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/need

In this case you used the version of “need” that was a transitive verb

Are you insane? Or is English a second language for you?

You didn't read my post.

If someone says "You need a Cleric for Xenovorash", would you counter by saying: " You don't need a Cleric, because 100 druids could chain heal the Warrior instead?"

You don't seem to understand the language if you think people nevery say something like "You need a Cleric for Xenovorash", even though this is not true with the extreme interpretation.

There are common uses of words that don't follow the definition precisely. You should know this.

[Troxx]

Oh Jesus Christ … lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bwahahahahahaha

Are you claiming people would never say "You need a Cleric for Xenovorash?"

That is a normal way to say this sentence in the english language given the context of the encounter, even though the word need is not strictly correct. You could do this encounter without a Cleric if you had enough healers of another class, but this is impractical, and people wouldn't do this normally.

[Troxx]

No.

I understand and speak English.

I am having a hard time understanding how someone so capable of generating such massive volumes of written diarrhea can be such a mental midget.


Edit: you and your fucking endless stealth edits. To those reading this now, just know that he asked me an absolutely idiotic question at the end of his post that I answered. Unfortunately he has edited it out.

Fucking proof-read your posts and/or actually think about your posts BEFORE YOU POST.

God damn.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No.

I understand and speak English.

I am having a hard time understanding how someone so capable of generating such massive volumes of written diarrhea can be such a mental midget.


Edit - you and your fucking endless stealth edits. To those reading this now, just know that he asked me an absolutely idiotic question that I answered. Unfortunately he has edited it out.

See? More dodging. Just like the Cleric question. This is what Troxx does when he knows he's wrong.

I'll ask again:

Are you claiming people would never say "You need a Cleric for Xenovorash?"

[Troxx]

You asked me if I would ever say that. I’ve tanked him on my warrior without a cleric healing so no I would not say that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You asked me if I would ever say that. I’ve tanked him on my warrior without a cleric healing so no I would not say that.

As you can see, he is dodging the substance of the question by deflecting to the encounter. I also said "people", not asking you specifically.

Let's try another encounter so you can stay focused. It's so easy for you to get distracted by your urge to troll.

Bro Z. Are you saying people would never say "You need a Cleric for Bro Z?"

[Troxx]

You asked ME specifically before you edited your post in multiple ways

What a drip

Quit playing word games. Words have definitions. Name on camp that can’t be done with 4 casters unless one of those casters is a shaman. You said you can name a few.

Or just admit you lied and/or were wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You asked ME specifically before you edited your post in multiple ways

What a drip

Stay focused. I know it's hard for you. Here is the new question that you shouldn't be distracted by:


Are you saying people would never say "You need a Cleric for Bro Z?"

If he doesn't answer, you'll know he's dodging. This should be an easy question for one supposedly adept at the English language. He's playing word games to change what I have said. This is a common tactic of Troxx. He lies and dodges difficult questions when he knows he's wrong.

[Duik]

So DSM is a human powered by chatgpt? Like he is transforming into a hybrid human/machine?

That's brilliant.
I will say what is the most statistically probable statements based on virtually everything ever said about anything, ever.

Sounds like DSM.

[Pulgasari]

So DSM is a human powered by chatgpt? Like he is transforming into a hybrid human/machine?

That's brilliant.
I will say what is the most statistically probable statements based on virtually everything ever said about anything, ever.

Sounds like DSM.

Engagement farming.

The Tides of Darkness have come to our shores.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What??? lol

Words do have actual definitions …

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/need

In this case you used the version of “need” that was a transitive verb. And don’t feed be BS about extreme vs soft “definitions”. You said there aren’t camps that need clerics followed by the claim that you could name several camps that need a shaman.

Are you insane? Smoking crack? Or is English a second language for you?

Like literally wtf lol

Here is a simple example of two different players using the word "need" more like the word "want" in the same context, and the first example is clearly transitive:


[Fri Jun 21 10:57:18 2019] Aaxion tells the guild, 'king group - need a monk'

[Wed Dec 26 21:22:34 2018] Nogok tells the guild, 'monk needed for king'


Fungi King does not absolutely require a Monk for the kill. Nor are they claiming Fungi King absolutely requires a Monk for the kill. Aaxion and Nogok want a Monk because Monks are generally the preferred puller for Fungi King when compared to other classes. People sometimes use the word "need" as a more forceful "want". This is because "need" is a four level word with more force. Saying "We need a Monk" is faster than adding an adjective to want, like "We really want a Monk".

Are you able to admit you are wrong on such a simple point as this?

This is why I have to edit my posts. You will latch on to absolutely anything you can so you can twist it. Merely saying a word that triggers you will send you into a trolling frenzy. Just look at the example questions in my latest posts. You got distracted on the word "me", and you got distracted on the specific encounter. You missed the entire substance of the question, and then refused to answer it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

adding an adjective to want

Just so you don't get distracted on this, I meant to say adverb.

[Troxx]

Lol at DSM’s mental gymnastics… trying to say he didn’t actually mean that he knows of multiple camps that NEED a shaman when he did, in fact, say he could name several camps that need a shaman.

Words are words. Words have definitions.

I do not for one minute think you didn’t mean what you said the first time you said it. You’re just trying to save face.

Imbecile.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol at DSM’s mental gymnastics… trying to say he didn’t actually mean that he knows of multiple camps that NEED a shaman when he did, in fact, say he could name several camps that need a shaman.

Words are words. Words have definitions.

I do not for one minute think you didn’t mean what you said the first time you said it. You’re just trying to save face.

Imbecile.

As you can see, Troxx is forcing my words to be different so he can attack a straw man. The only mental gymnastics here are Troxx thinks he is a mind reader.

He knows how people use the word need, which is why he dodged such a simple question earlier.

https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3690630&postcount=5074

I even provided examples of other people using the word need outside of the strict definition, which he cannot rebut.

https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3690650&postcount=5077

He will do this to anybody because he absolutely can never admit he is wrong.

Two years of this. And Troxx wonders why his credibility is trashed completely.

Troxx is a proven troll:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx has spent so much time and energy playing word games, trolling, etc. because he still cannot answer a simple question:

What camps would be better with a Cleric instead of a Shaman in this four person caster group?

West Waste Dragons and Fungi King are two camps where a Shaman would be better than a Cleric.

Hopefully he doesn't get distracted with some other random thing in this post, and spam the thread with another tangent.

[cyxthryth]

This is just a dodge.

You indeed continue to attempt to dodge naming a camp that needs a Shaman, dodge providing evidence of your Shaman root rotting multiple adds parallel to the group (thereby increasing group's DPS) and dodge replying to posts which call you out about it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You indeed continue to attempt to dodge naming a camp that needs a Shaman, dodge providing evidence of your Shaman root rotting multiple adds parallel to the group (thereby increasing group's DPS) and dodge replying to posts which call you out about it.

For people new to the thread, this is just a troll. Please look though his post history and you can conclude for yourself if he is worth listening to. He will continue to spam the thread as long as it's active, that is his sole purpose. 422/429 of his posts are in this thread. Expect another nonsense reply after this.

He will always respond with more nonsense, so I will not continue to reply. He will just spam more.

If he wants to support other posters, he can do so with evidence. Answering the question about which camps are better with a Cleric instead of a Shaman would be a good start.

[cyxthryth]

just a troll...look through his post history and you can conclude for yourself...will always respond with more nonsense.

Instead of being "just a troll" and responding with more "nonsense", couldn't you simply provide the name of one camp that needs a Shaman (out of the multiple which you claimed you could provide) and provide evidence of a/an/any Shaman root rotting multiple adds parallel to their group (thereby improving their group's DPS)?

[bcbrown]

It sounds like DSM is trying to admit he used the wrong words, and that in fact there are no camps that need a shaman.

I, for one, accept this concession.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It sounds like DSM is trying to admit he used the wrong words, and that in fact there are no camps that need a shaman.

I, for one, accept this concession.

Are you able to answer the question about which camps are better with a Cleric over a Shaman?

Or will the pro Cleric side continue to play word games? The continued dodging of this question is quite telling. It is very difficult to communicate with people who get distracted from the substance of a discussion so easily.

As I've already answered many times, West Waste Dragons and Fungi King are two camps where a Shaman does better than a Cleric.

Thus far you haven't named any, even once as far as I know. If I missed a post, please show it.

[bcbrown]

My friend, my perspective is as it always has been: I'm interested in the question in the context of leveling relatively untwinked from 1 to 60, not endgame camping.

That means no torpor, no fungis, no pocket characters. In that context I rather like the following groups, in a very rough order:
enc/clr/necro/wiz
enc/clr/mage/wiz
enc/enc/clr/wiz
enc/enc/necr/clr

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My friend, my perspective is as it always has been: I'm interested in the question in the context of leveling relatively untwinked from 1 to 60, not endgame camping.

That means no torpor, no fungis, no pocket characters. In that context I rather like the following groups, in a very rough order:
enc/clr/necr/wiz
enc/clr/mage/wiz
enc/enc/clr/wiz
enc/enc/necr/clr

That's good to know. I have always been focused on endgame, as the point of leveling is to get to 60, and a caster group is already leveling fast.

It sounds like you are admitting your arguments against Shaman are not relevant for an endgame focused group, so we can put them aside until people want to focus on the leveling group discussion.

If you want to discuss an endgame focused group, please let us know which camps are better with Cleric over Shaman.

[Topgunben]

My friend, my perspective is as it always has been: I'm interested in the question in the context of leveling relatively untwinked from 1 to 60, not endgame camping.

That means no torpor, no fungis, no pocket characters. In that context I rather like the following groups, in a very rough order:
enc/clr/necro/wiz
enc/clr/mage/wiz
enc/enc/clr/wiz
enc/enc/necr/clr

At what point do a clerics heals become so absurdly better than a Druids, that you would be willing to throw away QOL features like regen, sow, porting? I think the obvious answer is probably whenever they get complete heal, but I would think what a PITA when the cleric dies and now he/she needs a port.

[bcbrown]

CH is 39, first druid group port is 29, regen is 34.

I love druids, and I think I probably included druid in my first answer in this thread. But I think I'd rather swap the wizard for the druid if I went that way.

[bcbrown]

Yeah, this is where I started.

I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that enc/enc/clr/druid is the way to go. Shaman haste/slow is fully covered by two enchanters and dots don't help when engaging group content that dies quickly. Druid adds snares, ports, roots, the Skin Like line, group regen, potg at 60, and outdoors shenanigans. But really, I think if you start with a pair of enchanters, adding any combination of druid/necro/cleric will lead to a great group.

My highest level character is 45, though, so my perspective is from a leveling/adventuring group, not from someone who's spent a decade at level 60 with raid gear.

I got to group with a necro on my shaman for the first time yesterday, and Regen + Twitch combined with canni + Pact of Shadow really is amazing.

[Topgunben]

CH is 39, first druid group port is 29, regen is 34.

I love druids, and I think I probably included druid in my first answer in this thread. But I think I'd rather swap the wizard for the druid if I went that way.

I think wizard does make more sense if not replacing the cleric. But wizard is an absolute no if replacing the cleric.

Still, not having constant sow available can be pretty annoying. Nothing sow pots can’t fix I suppose.

[bcbrown]

Yeah, sow is a huge QoL improvement, but with this group I expect I'd be spending most of the time dungeon crawling. Guk, Permafrost, SolA/B, etc. I've spent a ton of time outdoors on my druid, but I can't think of much outside worth bringing a heavy-hitting group to fight. Unless, like, you want to speed-run Unrest/Mistmoore/CoM/KC, but yuck.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, this is where I started.

That's perfectly fine. Shaman and Necro is a great combo.

Now we know you are not discussing endgame, we can keep these arguments for a leveling group, rather than an endgame group.

If you want to rebut my points, you need to rebut them from an endgame perspective.

[bcbrown]

we can keep these arguments for a leveling group, rather than an endgame group.

Yeah absolutely. One of the things that's interesting when you're thinking about starting from scratch & untwinked, perhaps on a new server, is that enc/enc/enc/clr becomes a lot weaker. The enchanters can't do all that much until the mid-teens, so there's not a lot of firepower. That's part of why I think a necro or mage is a good group member, because they can do more of the heavy lifting until the enchanter is able to reliably hold down a good charm pet. Same (kinda) with wizard.

The other reason I think a wizard is a decent choice is that any three casters is gonna be pretty damn strong all the way through, and while the wizard won't be contributing a ton on a mob-to-mob basis, they can burn down a bad pull.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah absolutely. One of the things that's interesting when you're thinking about starting from scratch & untwinked, perhaps on a new server, is that enc/enc/enc/clr becomes a lot weaker. The enchanters can't do all that much until the mid-teens, so there's not a lot of firepower. That's part of why I think a necro or mage is a good group member, because they can do more of the heavy lifting until the enchanter is able to reliably hold down a good charm pet. Same (kinda) with wizard.

The other reason I think a wizard is a decent choice is that any three casters is gonna be pretty damn strong all the way through, and while the wizard won't be contributing a ton on a mob-to-mob basis, they can burn down a bad pull.

That's right. In the early levels other group comps would do better. Four Mages would probably be the fastest to level from 1-20, maybe higher, in an untwinked comp.

Charming in the early game isn't as good, especially untwinked. You have a low mana pool, less of your toolkit, more fizzles, more lull fails due to lower CHA, etc.

If you plan to go past 20, other classes start opening up more, like Druids/Wizards for ports, etc.

[bcbrown]

Yeah, I think adding a druid for snares/charms/regen/ports/spot-heals would at least be a lot of fun. They can nuke if there's nothing else to do. Having a built-in porter seems pretty necessary on a new server. Wizard gives that, but druid gets ya a bunch of nice utility, so I'm pretty close to 50-50 which one to include.

[cyxthryth]

It sounds like DSM is trying to admit he used the wrong words, and that in fact there are no camps that need a shaman.

I, for one, accept this concession.

Agreed.

[7thGate]

I feel like maybe we could have some more discussion on stretch targets, and what 4 man comps can do them, and how.

I'm curious what 4 man comp people would use for the following targets, and how they would approach trying for the kills:

--Prince Thirneg
--Vaniki
--Harla Dar
--Overking Bathezid
--Eashen's Guards

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I feel like maybe we could have some more discussion on stretch targets, and what 4 man comps can do them, and how.

I'm curious what 4 man comp people would use for the following targets, and how they would approach trying for the kills:

--Prince Thirneg
--Vaniki
--Harla Dar
--Overking Bathezid
--Eashen's Guards

Yeah stretch targets are interesting. I'd imagine Vaniki is off the table for this group, simply because casters/priests don't need Willsapper or Neb's. Would be kind of a dick move to kill it just for a stretch goal, unless you had a melee alt lined up to loot it, or were selling loot rights.

Harla Dar sounds difficult with four people post push-to-interrupt change, since she can gate. Wiki says she gated occasionally even with sieves.

You could fight her at her spawn location to prevent gate, but then you couldn't stop AoEs via the water trick. This means Charmed pets are not very effective. They will just keep getting dispelled and/or feared. If you try to MR buff them, you'll get more breaks between AoEs. If you reduce their MR, they will get feared more.

If she can be blinded, 4x bio orbs and very slowly killing her with Dots might work lol. Bring her to an area where she can be blind kited safely, and just spam bio orbs while weaving in the occasional DoT. You'd want a Shaman and an Enchanter so you can Malo + Tash for maximum -MR. Blind Kiting would prevent her from casting and summoning.

Having summoned pets attacking the blinded mob would stop it from running, and the players will not be summoned. This would allow you to keep her in shallow water so you can land spells and block aoe. Maybe 2 Mages as the last two members alternating between summoning pets might work if the pets don't die too fast. Or 1-2 Necros if you want morr DoTs. But you'd need to stop doing this when HP gets into gate range so she doesn't gate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Enchanter/Shaman/Mage/Necro with 4x bio orbs would be my pick for Harla Dar if she can be blind kited.

Enchanter focuses on Tash, Slow, Clarity, and Group Resist MR.

Shaman focues on Malo, Healing, and DoTs. This would be a very slow and long fight, so you want a Shaman to be able to maintain their mana, and they get a free DoT clickie via Epic. Could Torpor the pets too as long as your DPS is slowly reducing HP.

Necromancer does DoTs and twitches. Can use their pet if the Mage needs a break. Can res if something goes bad.

Mage just saves all mana for pet chaining to keep Harla Dar in place.

All group members would need to be bio orbing as often as possible. The group would need to be well coordinated so when one caster is doing something, like a Necromancer Doting, at least one or two other members are bio orbing.

Once Harla Dar is down to Gating HP, Mage stops using pet and switches to doing nothing but spamming bio orb. Necro also stops using their pet, and focuses more on DoTs.

[Duik]

I think dsm just got his equivalent to morning wood.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Alternatively you could swap the Mage for a Druid. You'd be able to blind kite out of the water by having the Druid Harmo anything that wanders by. They can DoT too. Keeping Harla Dar in shallow water to prevent AoE works nicely until gating HP range. If Harla Dar wanders into deep water via Blind, it will be difficult to land spells. Perhaps the Necro could keep Harla Dar snared if it is snareable, so you can keep the Mage.

[7thGate]

I think Harla is probably the hardest of the 5. She can be slowed and blinded, but is very resistant. I've seen a shaman burn their whole mana bar trying and falling before with tash and malo, but I've also seen it land.

Some sort of preslow might be possible, but I wouldn't count on landing effects during the fight. I think you have to fight on spawn to stop gate as well, since I'm pretty sure she regens more than gate mana per tick.

If you're going to do vaniki, you would want to sell loot rights ahead of time I think. A lot of high value camps don't necessarily hold value for 4 specific casters after all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think Harla is probably the hardest of the 5. She can be slowed and blinded, but is very resistant. I've seen a shaman burn their whole mana bar trying and falling before with tash and malo, but I've also seen it land.

Some sort of preslow might be possible, but I wouldn't count on landing effects during the fight. I think you have to fight on spawn to stop gate as well, since I'm pretty sure she regens more than gate mana per tick.

If you're going to do vaniki, you would want to sell loot rights ahead of time I think. A lot of high value camps don't necessarily hold value for 4 specific casters after all.

Yeah my hope is 4x bio orbs is enough to overcome the resistances. Just keep blind on through enough casts, and you spend no mana. Would love to test it out sometime to see if it's effective enough. I do have a bio orb. Then she couldn't gate or summon.

[Troxx]

Vaniki would require pre-tash/malo/slow. Charm pets could tank but I honestly think for that particular fight ench/ench/cleric/cleric would be best to handle the raw damage output. Slowing would be hard without malo. A mage could malo and the extra dps would certainly help but I question if a single cleric could keep even the stoutest charm mob in that zone alive as it won’t have defensive like a warrior would. Extra heals from shaman would help but the slow on torpor might drag the fight out too long.

Other viable strats would include enchanters having several pet candidates lined up to just send a new one as needed.

[Swish]

Can you give me a number crunch real quick?

Uhhh.. yeah, gimme a sec… I’m coming up with thirty-two point three three uh, repeating of course, percentage, of survival.

[Vexenu]

My friend, my perspective is as it always has been: I'm interested in the question in the context of leveling relatively untwinked from 1 to 60, not endgame camping.

That means no torpor, no fungis, no pocket characters. In that context I rather like the following groups, in a very rough order:
enc/clr/necro/wiz
enc/clr/mage/wiz
enc/enc/clr/wiz
enc/enc/necr/clr

I actually like your earlier suggestion of ENC/ENC/CLR/DRU best (although I concede the Wizard in place of the Druid for an ultra-endgame focus with Hate access and TL shenanigans, but most comps would get way more overall mileage from the Druid).

The Druid gives you a third charmer in a good number of zones (which the group could obviously prioritize while leveling) for ridiculous DPS, and just as importantly, provides a massive safety barrier for the group by keeping all pets perma-ensnared. DSM also made a viable point about a group comp being superior if it can split into two duos when necessary or advantageous, and this comp obviously could - both ENC/CLR and ENC/DRU are extremely capable. Throw in all the extra Druid goodies like track, ports, SoW, Harmony, thorns, extra heals, ultimately PotG, etc... and this group is really cooking. Insane safety margins for charming with both the Druid (snare/heals) and Cleric (stun/heals) in support. Can easily run roughshod over all groupable content and dungeons. I really don't think the Wiz comes out ahead of the Druid unless the group wants to specialize in sniping Hate minis.

[7thGate]

Vaniki would require pre-tash/malo/slow. Charm pets could tank but I honestly think for that particular fight ench/ench/cleric/cleric would be best to handle the raw damage output. Slowing would be hard without malo. A mage could malo and the extra dps would certainly help but I question if a single cleric could keep even the stoutest charm mob in that zone alive as it wonÂ’t have defensive like a warrior would. Extra heals from shaman would help but the slow on torpor might drag the fight out too long.

Other viable strats would include enchanters having several pet candidates lined up to just send a new one as needed.

A cleric should be able to heal ~12+ times, which is probably equivalent to 8-10 pets lined up on deck. I suspect that you can't keep enough pets around to make subbing in pets viable as a primary healing mechanism. It might be worth keeping a few to handle large burst though, as Vaniki can burst extremely hard with lucky lifetap procs.

My logs have Vaniki doing around 80 dps slowed, but that doesn't include the lifetap proc. Pulling a random Vaniki from my logs, I'm seeting 18 procs in 180 seconds, so probably about 50 dps from lifetap. That's too high for Torp healing, but can probably work with around 1 CH/minute on a strong pet. I would probably go Shaman/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter since I think you need Malo, you're going to need a lot of reslows if you're reliant on Chanter slows, and Shaman slow is an extra 20% effective HP increase over chanter slow, which can actually matter for this. Torp will also help string out the fight and allow for increased time between CHs for the cleric to med, extending the fight time by a lot.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A cleric should be able to heal ~12+ times, which is probably equivalent to 8-10 pets lined up on deck. I suspect that you can't keep enough pets around to make subbing in pets viable as a primary healing mechanism. It might be worth keeping a few to handle large burst though, as Vaniki can burst extremely hard with lucky lifetap procs.

My logs have Vaniki doing around 80 dps slowed, but that doesn't include the lifetap proc. Pulling a random Vaniki from my logs, I'm seeting 18 procs in 180 seconds, so probably about 50 dps from lifetap. That's too high for Torp healing, but can probably work with around 1 CH/minute on a strong pet. I would probably go Shaman/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter since I think you need Malo, you're going to need a lot of reslows if you're reliant on Chanter slows, and Shaman slow is an extra 20% effective HP increase over chanter slow, which can actually matter for this. Torp will also help string out the fight and allow for increased time between CHs for the cleric to med, extending the fight time by a lot.

Agreed, Shaman/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter looks like it would work for Vaniki using those numbers.

Torpor + Regrowth reduces DPS done to the Enchanter Pet by 52. If your logs were using Enchanter Slow, the 5% extra Shaman slow would reduce DPS by another 16 roughly speaking. So Vaniki would be doing 12 DPS via melee and 50 DPS via proc, for a total of 62 DPS.

At 62 DPS Vaniki is basically doing 5000 damage every 80 seconds. If the logs were using a Shaman slow, Vaniki is doing 78 DPS, or 6200 damage every 80 seconds. The Enchanter pet should have at least 8000 HP, so the Cleric can spend at least 80 seconds meditating per CH on average. With Clarity 2 the Cleric is getting 32 mana per tick while sitting. CH costs 360 mana per cast with specialization, and 32 x 11 ticks (66 seconds) = 352 + 12 mana (one standing tick) = 364 mana. This means the group could sustain indefinately in theory, assuming nothing crazy happens.

Torporing the Enchanter Pet has no consequence in this fight, because Vaniki is already slowing the Enchanter pet by 35% via Willsapper, and Torpor only slows by 30%.

The Shaman can also summon their pet to add roughly 17 DPS to the fight if hasted by the Shaman. Would be a bit higher if hasted by the Enchanter.

Obviously Malo is there for ensuring the group can keep Vaniki slowed.

[Trexller]

You all do realize that after 500 pages in this thread, you now have no choice but to make a farm crew or a guild that only uses groups of 4 casters, right?

Time to put your money where your mouth is

Get out there and decide in the real world which combo of 4 casters is the most powerful

[Duik]

Penish can do the OBS

[Pulgasari]

You all do realize that after 500 pages in this thread, you now have no choice but to make a farm crew or a guild that only uses groups of 4 casters, right?

Time to put your money where your mouth is

Get out there and decide in the real world which combo of 4 casters is the most powerful

The party composition success rate would likely would be within the margin of RNG for either theory.

Keep grinding, bitches.

[Trexller]

The party composition success rate would likely would be within the margin of RNG for either theory.

Keep grinding, bitches.

nah but the definition of success needs to be refined, "best 4 person all caster group" doesn't mean much

so we gotta come up with what "best" means

I vote that "best" means "what 4 person all caster group can kill the toughest mob"

[Pulgasari]

nah but the definition of success needs to be refined, "best 4 person all caster group" doesn't mean much

so we gotta come up with what "best" means

I vote that "best" means "what 4 person all caster group can kill the toughest mob"

Some have posited it means killing exp goblins most quickly and efficiently.

Remand with instruction to apply scrutiny. 👋

[Vexenu]

I think a "best" ranking would be the group with the highest average of rankings in several different criteria. Ex: fastest leveling, least gear required, best for clearing dungeons, capable of killing the toughest mob, functional when split into two separate duos, best power curve from 1-60, etc...

[Trexller]

Nah

Its definitely the toughest mob

So theoretically, what is the toughest mob that 4 casters could kill?

[fortior]

Nah

Its definitely the toughest mob

So theoretically, what is the toughest mob that 4 casters could kill?

Maybe vindi if swaps to parked toons are allowed?

Else ST trash or hate minis

Comedy answer: bloodmaw

[7thGate]

I think it's probably vindi, but it might be Tormax or Klandicar. Kael has ludicrously OP pets with Bevellos and Yetarr. Techniques that can kill Vindi with 4 may be able to do Tormax as well with a longer fight.

There's a low man klandicar red server did IIRC with scout giants Captain and dictating him to dump CHs in. That might have a path to a 4 man on quake where you can get scout freely outside the usual roll. I believe you basically get lucky preslowing klandi, dictate scout cap, buff him up, drop him on klandi. When he gets low roll multiple CHs and dictate so he pops to full before dictate can be dispelled, then zone so they keep fighting.

When klandicar is super low, pop some dispellable debuffs on cap, dictate him in a higher buff slot, and let him finish Klandi off.

[7thGate]

There's also a possibility of doing Project Lightning's 30 man AoW kill with 4 I think by replacing the entire CH chain with corpsed reapers and doing 4 enchanters or 3 enchanter+druid.

You have to spend like 1.5 million plat on 2000 corpsed reapers though, and probably a lot more because you can't actually buy that many without significantly moving the market price. There's also an extra wrinkle on enrage because you have no bump, so have to try and do something like charm break everything and DA idol hold, or maybe slow one of the pets and break charm on all the rest and try to keep it up while it plows through enrage.

[Topgunben]

How long would that take to corpse 2000 reapers though? Probably like 70 hours.

[Trexller]

2000 corpses would crash the zone or your integrated graphics or something hardwarey would get pissed

[7thGate]

Yeah, its a lot. I think more effort than AoW is worth, really, which is saying a lot.

I'm not sure if 2000 corpses would actually break anything though, but maybe.

I would probably look at A_Kromzek_Captain and try and look at plans for Klandicar or Sontalak as the hardest target doable. Not entirely sure a kill can be worked out there with 4 or not, but that seems plausible, especially for Klandicar.

[Troxx]

I’m curious who from this theoretical 4 man would be and how they plan on the pulling part of Vindi or these other trophy mobs.

[Trexller]

Catch vindi on a fresh spawn before his pets link up?

If they somehow got vindi alone i bet 4 super lucky ench could kill it w/ pets

Klandi i dunno just bc of the dispels

[7thGate]

Vindi, easiest pull is to use a factioned charm class to use assist aggro off a low level pet rooted on spawn. Prekill the TGs to remove the need to kite them.

Pulling the pets to set up and keeping them until vindi pop is tough though, when I actually tried to do a 4 man vindi with cleric/enchanter/enchanter/druid I had an enchanter on a factioned SK, the cleric on a magician and myself helping pull and tank on a rogue, and it took over half an hour to get the right pet team parked. With a strict 4 person no swap it gets tricky since you need a dedicated slot if you want malo for setup but probably really need all 4 slots for the fight.

[Penish]

also ench ench mag cleric is clearly the best, thank u all

[Troxx]

Vindi, easiest pull is to use a factioned charm class to use assist aggro off a low level pet rooted on spawn. Prekill the TGs to remove the need to kite them.

If one of the 4 casters is doing this at the start … on their caster … I am having a hard time seeing the rest of the group pull it off during the critical initial moments of the fight.

[Trexller]

Shit if you guys killed vindi with 20 casters or any method other than tank and spank that would be significant

[7thGate]

I did a 5 chanter/3 cleric/1 mage core vindi kill, with a few other people for pulling and kiting. The link is in my sig. The 4 man attempt was going to be the fully refined version, stripping out the redundancies and adding a few additional techniques to see how far it could be pushed.

I ended up having a lot of trouble coordinating my schedule with the other people who were interested in doing a ultra lowman in sanctum and vindis windows. Had one or two setups that didn't come together fast enough, and eventually ended up giving up on the attempt.

[Duik]

How long would that take to corpse 2000 reapers though? Probably like 70 hours.

Sounds like a job for castle. Completlely wasting time on pointless exercises.
Remember kids, dont count the time corpsing stuff.

[Toxigen]

nice job guys

[fortior]

Man those two enchanters were carrying that shaman

[Trexller]

Man those two enchanters were carrying that shaman

isn't that always the case tho?

there is only one camp in the game where groups would consistently choose shm over ench

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Man those two enchanters were carrying that shaman

People can watch the video and come to their own conclusions. When you watch a video negatively rather than objectively, your conclusion will be affected.

Just look at Vexenu. He thinks it is the healer's fault an Enchanter ran into the middle of four mobs without Rune or Bedlam. This is due to watching the video negatively, not watching the video obectively. I don't think many people agree with Vexenu when looking at Enchanter strategies. Rune and/or Bedlam is a good idea when you know you are going to potentially be taking a lot of damage.

isn't that always the case tho?

there is only one camp in the game where groups would consistently choose shm over ench

You could say Enchanters carry any class in a small group, since they are the top solo class in the game. That argument isn't Shaman specific.

However, Shaman/Monk/Enchanter is a powerful and common combination for a reason. You don't see that many Ench/Ench/Ench trios.

This is because utility and consistency will often trump extra DPS in the long run, because death can be a large setback in P99. If your group dies and loses their camp, that is a much larger setback than a bit slower kill speeds.

[Trexller]

right but

we aren't debating whats best overall, or who grinds orc pawns faster

seb king is the only camp in the game where a group would choose a shaman over a chanter if they had to choose one or the other

theres just entirely too much opinion obfuscating reality in these "what is best" threads, too much personal feeling and bias

it's a math equation, there is no room for opinions

unless you are terrance howard

[DeathsSilkyMist]

right but

we aren't debating whats best overall, or who grinds orc pawns faster

seb king is the only camp in the game where a group would choose a shaman over a chanter if they had to choose one or the other

theres just entirely too much opinion obfuscating reality in these "what is best" threads, too much personal feeling and bias

it's a math equation, there is no room for opinions

unless you are terrance howard

This discussion is about a four man group. You can have an Enchanter and a Shaman. So far Fungi King, West Waste Dragons, and Vaniki would benefit from a Shaman over simply having four Enchanters in the group. If a Shaman enables more camps to be easily doable, then you'd want the Shaman in the four man group.

Most people in this thread, including myself, have been discussing best overall, not best trophy kill if you spent 1 million or more plat to make it happen.

[Trexller]

name of the thread says best

best would mean toughest mob dead

most people are so buried in their own opinions that they believe it as reality

that's how we ended up with a zombie for a president

[Keebz]

I don't think I've ever killed fungi king with a shaman in the group. What on earth are you people talking about.

The other two examples are also probably wrong, but fungi king is very clearly wrong.

[Toxigen]

I don't think I've ever killed fungi king with a shaman in the group. What on earth are you people talking about.

The other two examples are also probably wrong, but fungi king is very clearly wrong.

I have...but it was a long, long time ago when i was a wee lad, brand new to p99 and EQ.

We had a full 6 man with some really heavy-hitters. Cleric / Shaman / Enc (me) / War / Rogue / Monk. This was back when sneak-pulling was a thing.

Did a 4 hour session at the archway between King and the door towards Trak lair. Kept the path to King mostly clear for instant tags and mixed in some reets / juggs. As the enchanter, I was super glad we had that shaman.

That was a fun one. Just a squad of elf bros playing super-sharp in a really dicey spot.

Nobody does stuff like that anymore.

[Troxx]

People can watch the video and come to their own conclusions.

We did. You were awful. A better and more attentive shaman would have fared much better … but a cleric would have had a MUCH easier time of it all. Why you let him sit at health below 100%, were slow to react, and decided to try and malo rather than heal your enchanter is mind boggling.

Like it or not, shamans simply have far fewer and less potent tools to handle “oh shit” moments. You’re basically stuck spamming chloroblast for mediocre healing. Imagine if that enchanter had had an extra 1000hp in buffs to boot. Enchanters already have a hp buff line available that doesn’t stack with focus.

[Toxigen]

Rooted dragons forced Freedom to merge with AG.

We were inundated with players like DSM.

Sad times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We did. You were awful. A better and more attentive shaman would have fared much better … but a cleric would have had a MUCH easier time of it all. Why you let him sit at health below 100%, were slow to react, and decided to try and malo rather than heal your enchanter is mind boggling.


You are a proven troll. Of course you are going to say I was awful. You are unable to provide objective feedback when your goal is to attack other people. Nor did I say that video was an example of peak play.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.



Like it or not, shamans simply have far fewer and less potent tools to handle “oh shit” moments. You’re basically stuck spamming chloroblast for mediocre healing. Imagine if that enchanter had had an extra 1000hp in buffs to boot. Enchanters already have a hp buff line available that doesn’t stack with focus.

Looks like you forgot about slow, AoE slow, root, and pre-Torporing before starting the fight. For someone who has a 60 Shaman, you don't seem to know how to play one. Or you are purposely obfuscating how Shamans work so you can troll. Either way, it's a bad look for you.

[Troxx]

Looks like you forgot about slow, AoE slow, root, and pre-Torporing before starting the fight.

None of which you did. Slow? It was his own pet killing him. Is your solution on breaks to turgurs the charm pet? lol.

A cleric would have had that enchanter with 1k more hp. On charm break lightning fast aoe or targeted stun with an immediate follow-on blast heal.

Your enchanter got down to 3% health and only lived because the OTHER enchanter saved his ass.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

None of which you did. Slow? It was his own pet killing him. Is your solution on breaks to turgurs the charm pet? lol.

A cleric would have had that enchanter with 1k more hp. On charm break lightning fast aoe or targeted stun with an immediate follow-on blast heal.

Your enchanter got down to 3% health and only lived because the OTHER enchanter saved his ass.

Again, I didn't say it was peak play. You are the one trying to find things to attack me on, rather than discuss the topic of what a Shaman can do.

Yes, you can Turgur a pet in a bad situation. It is better than dying. I'm suprised you don't know this.

The Enchanter in question would have had 1k hp extra if they had Rune + Bedlam. It is not the healers fault an Enchanter chose not to Rune + Bedlam before running into the middle of 4 mobs.

It is sad when you have a 60 Shaman, but can't explain how they work, and think a short clip of a video encapsulates the entire range of what a Shaman can do, or a player's skill.

I assume this is why you never post videos of yourself. People would also see moments where you didn't play optimally, and are afraid people will attack you on those moments. This fear comes from your tendency to do this to other people.

You are a proven troll:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.

[Toxigen]

lmao

[Troxx]

Again, I didn't say it was peak play.[/url]

I would certainly hope so. If that was anything BUT you at your worst … drunk as a skunk, high on bath salts and with 7 broken fingers …

For shame.

I’ve duo’d with many an enchanter on my 60 shaman. I know how well they can work together when things go smoothly. Between you and I, apparently only one of us is honest or intelligent enough to know or acknowledge the limitations and weaknesses.

Duo with a chanter? 100x out of 100 I would rather play my cleric. Pretty sure whatever ench I’m duping with would agree

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve duo’d with many an enchanter on my 60 shaman. I know how well they can work together when things go smoothly. Between you and I, apparently only one of us is honest or intelligent enough to know or acknowledge the limitations and weaknesses.

Duo with a chanter? 100x out of 100 I would rather play my cleric. Pretty sure whatever ench I’m duping with would agree

You are neither honest or intelligent when you keep ignoring what a Shaman can do in order to support your arguments against them. Or you simply don't know how a Shaman works that well.


Like it or not, shamans simply have far fewer and less potent tools to handle “oh shit” moments. You’re basically stuck spamming chloroblast for mediocre healing.


Why would you say this? If you knew how a Shaman worked, you would know this is false.

[Toxigen]

1000 pages here we come?

[Trexller]

1000 pages here we come?

i wonder if we'll learn about the secret shaman abilities that after 25 years of gameplay are still up for debate

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i wonder if we'll learn about the secret shaman abilities that after 25 years of gameplay are still up for debate

These strategies aren't a secret. Trolls like Troxx cannot admit they are wrong, to the point where they try to lie about the game in an attempt to win. Or they didn't know about a strategy, and thus try to deny it so they won't have to admit they didn't know. It is sad.

[Toxigen]

slowing a dedicated enc pet is not a strategy lmao

[DeathsSilkyMist]

slowing a dedicated enc pet is not a strategy lmao

Yes it is. Pretending otherwise is silly. You'll save more time saving an Enchanter this way than having them die and recover.

[Toxigen]

or they could just not die in the first place if you pulled your head out of your ass

[DeathsSilkyMist]

or they could just not die in the first place if you pulled your head out of your ass

This is not an argument against Shamans for this group, or an argument against slowing a mob to save an Enchanter in a bad situation.

You could say the same thing for an Enchanter, a Cleric, etc.

[Toxigen]

i watched the video

you are not good at eq

[Troxx]

You are neither honest or intelligent when you keep ignoring or not know what a Shaman can do in order to support your arguments against

I do not find your argument compelling. That is not the same thing as not understanding what a shaman can provide in support. If this concept is beyond your feeble abilities of comprehension, we are at an impasse.

I assume this is why you never post videos of yourself.

Perhaps I don’t post videos of myself because I’m not the type of narcissist twat waffle who videotapes themself. I do get a laugh at your videos though. So much of what you do and how you play is far from efficient or ideal.

You can prattle on all you want about how it wasn’t a representation of ideal play … but as fast as I’m concerned the only thing that truly matters is how well you carry yourself in those worst case scenarios. EQ is not hard. The overwhelming majority of it is boring and casually simple. I don’t give a rats ass if you can plod along with mediocrity 95-98% of the time. What matters is how you handle yourself in a pickle.

As for your pickle performance?

F-

Of the things you could have done … you did literally nothing to support them. You can napkin math and theorycraft all you want, but even of what we all agree can be done, you’re too inept to execute.

i wonder if we'll learn about the secret shaman abilities that after 25 years of gameplay are still up for debate

I’m super curious as well. There nothing he hasn’t done solo/duo/group/raid on a shaman that I haven’t. Big differences really only seem to be that he sucks at actually playing and I don’t … but his gear is far better cause mouth-breathing on raids for semi-afk dkp is easy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i watched the video

you are not a good player

You did not watch the entire video, or my other videos. You are a troll who is looking for any excuse to discredit me, instead of actually having an objective discussion.

Are you claiming you have never made a mistake, or that one mistake damns someone forever? More nonsense from a troll.

[Troxx]

The problem with idiots playing shamans is that the shaman class is so incredibly overpowered that when they manage to do a thing successfully … they are prone to jumping to the conclusion that they are super great at playing EQ.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I do not find your argument compelling. That is not the same thing as not understanding what a shaman can provide in support. If this concept is beyond your feeble abilities of comprehension, we are at an impasse.



Perhaps I don’t post videos of myself because I’m not the type of narcissist twat waffle who videotapes themself. I do get a laugh at your videos though. So much of what you do and how you play is far from efficient or ideal.

You can prattle on all you want about how it wasn’t a representation of ideal play … but as fast as I’m concerned the only thing that truly matters is how well you carry yourself in those worst case scenarios. EQ is not hard. The overwhelming majority of it is boring and casually simple. I don’t give a rats ass if you can plod along with mediocrity 95-98% of the time. What matters is how you handle yourself in a pickle.

As for your pickle performance?

F-

Of the things you could have done … you did literally nothing to support them. You can napkin math and theorycraft all you want, but even of what we all agree can be done, you’re too inept to execute.



I’m super curious as well. There nothing he hasn’t done solo/duo/group/raid on a shaman that I haven’t. Big differences really only seem to be that he sucks at actually playing and I don’t … but his gear is far better cause mouth-breathing on raids for semi-afk dkp is easy.


Another long troll post saying nothing, and dodging a basic question, because you can never admit you are wrong. Let's try again:


Like it or not, shamans simply have far fewer and less potent tools to handle “oh shit” moments. You’re basically stuck spamming chloroblast for mediocre healing.


Why would you say this? If you knew how a Shaman worked, you would know this is false.

[bcbrown]

Yes it is. Pretending otherwise is silly. You'll save more time saving an Enchanter this way than having them die and recover.

Slowing a pet on a charm break is objectively worse than dropping a stun followed up by blast healing at far higher health per second.

You did not watch the entire video, or my other videos. You are a troll who is looking for any excuse to discredit me, instead of actually having an objective discussion.

If you have a video where you helped an enchanter recover from a charm break that demonstrates what you think is good effective gameplay, I'd be interested in watching that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Slowing a pet on a charm break is objectively worse than dropping a stun followed up by blast healing at far higher health per second.



If you have a video where you helped an enchanter recover from a charm break that demonstrates what you think is good effective gameplay, I'd be interested in watching that.

Maybe you can provide some videos for once, instead of only asking other people. You have yet to provide even one supoorting your case.

[Troxx]

Why would you say this? If you knew how a Shaman worked, you would know this is false.

Ok professor, educate me.

Your ench partner is at 100% health. Your enchanter has a hasted, quadding high dps pet and charm breaks. The mob summons (or doesn’t summon but root broke cause this is a “pickle”). The enchanter is now being wailed on by the pet and the mob. Or an alternative scenario is that ench gets a bad pull. 2-3 mobs incomming and pet suddenly breaks. All 3-4 mobs (one a beefed up pet) are on the loose.

Please keep in mind that the alternative partner here (cleric) would just fire a longish duration AoE stun to fix the “pickle” in 1 seconds worth of cast time. Even if the spell resists, mobs are now on the cleric who can take a few rounds and backup DA giving thr ench precious time to recover.

Ok professor. Educate me. What do you do?

And … go!

[bcbrown]

So no disagreement that slowing on a charm break is objectively worse than a stun followed by blast healing?

[Toxigen]

DSM bout to be sent into orbit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok professor, educate me.

Your ench partner is at 100% health. Your enchanter has a hasted, quadding high dps pet and charm breaks. The mob summons (or doesn’t summon but root broke cause this is a “pickle”). The enchanter is now being wailed on by the pet and the mob. Or an alternative scenario is that ench gets a bad pull. 2-3 mobs incomming and pet suddenly breaks. All 3-4 mobs (one a beefed up pet) are on the loose.

Please keep in mind that the alternative partner here (cleric) would just fire a longish duration AoE stun to fix the “pickle” in 1 seconds worth of cast time. Even if the spell resists, mobs are now on the cleric who can take a few rounds and backup DA giving thr ench precious time to recover.

Ok professor. Educate me. What do you do?

And … go!

Why don't you strong man a Shaman in this scenario. Since you keep claiming you know Shamans so well, and have done everything, this should be an easy one for you.

[Troxx]

Ok professor, educate me.

Your ench partner is at 100% health. Your enchanter has a hasted, quadding high dps pet and charm breaks. The mob summons (or doesn’t summon but root broke cause this is a “pickle”). The enchanter is now being wailed on by the pet and the mob. Or an alternative scenario is that ench gets a bad pull. 2-3 mobs incomming and pet suddenly breaks. All 3-4 mobs (one a beefed up pet) are on the loose.

Please keep in mind that the alternative partner here (cleric) would just fire a longish duration AoE stun to fix the “pickle” in 1 seconds worth of cast time. Even if the spell resists, mobs are now on the cleric who can take a few rounds and backup DA giving thr ench precious time to recover.

Ok professor. Educate me. What do you do?

And … go!

Answer the question.

One of the above scenarios happens. Your enchanter needs your help, desperately and quickly. What do you do? You accused me of not understanding how a shaman works. If that indeed is the case, I humbly ask you to educate me.

Shit has hit the fan. Your enchanter needs you. What does a shaman do?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Answer the question.

One of the above scenarios happens. Your enchanter needs your help, desperately and quickly. What do you do? You accused me of not understanding how a shaman works. If that indeed is the case, I humbly ask you to educate me.

Shit has hit the fan. Your enchanter needs you. What does a shaman do?

As you can see, Troxx keeps doding the original question posed to him by trying to ask another question instead.

[Troxx]

So you do not have an answer to the question?

I’m genuinely serious what you think your most appropriate initial response would be. Mobs are beating on the enchanter and health is dropping.

What do you do?

I’ll tell you what I think you should do: heal the enchanter, clinch your pussy lips and pray the heals cover enough of the gap for the enchanter to manage an AOE to get shit under control.

What does DSM do?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So you do not have an answer to the question?

I’m genuinely serious what you think your most appropriate initial response would be. Mobs are beating on the enchanter and health is dropping.

What do you do?

I’ll tell you what I think you should do: heal the enchanter, clinch your pussy lips and pray the heals cover enough of the gap for the enchanter to manage an AOE to get shit under control.

What does DSM do?

I have an answer, but, I'd like to hear your answer first, since you were asked first. This is your normal mode, whenever you would need to admit you are wrong, you dodge.

This was the question I asked you first, which you are dodging, is this:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691702&postcount=5160

[Toxigen]

DSM is too busy root rotting 5 adds and managing his wolf pet to help a stupid enchanter.

Silly Troxx, maybe if you knew how to shaman at DSM's level you'd understand.

Obviously he'll just log into his pocket cleric after and rez.

[Troxx]

So DSM … you are refusing to answer a very simple and specific question. Does this constitute a concession?

I have told you what I think you should do and what I would do with my shaman.

In not answering or providing an alternative I assume this is what you also would do. If this is the case and you are just going to blast heal and trust the enchanters skill to recover … remember that the cleric will blast heal much better than you and that the enchanter will have more hp buffer with the cleric.

But … the cleric would just stun it all and top off the enchanter who would have it all back under control before the stun wore off.

If you have some top sekrit other strategy, please educate me.

[Trexller]

The problem with idiots playing shamans is that the shaman class is so incredibly overpowered that when they manage to do a thing successfully … they are prone to jumping to the conclusion that they are super great at playing EQ.

I got real skillz against green mobs

My turgurs never gets resisted and my root never breaks early

[Troxx]

Of all the classes to play, shaman is one of the easiest to do so at a level of mediocrity. It’s a busy class, but not a difficult one to play or be effective with. Especially once you have torpor.

I’m much more impressed by someone who knows how to play some of the other classes effectively… notably bard, necro, and enchanter. The really good ones really stand apart from those that just attain mediocrity.

Honorable mention to clerics and paladins who perform exceptionally well. A well played cleric in particular (one who does more than sit/stand/heal/sit when the situation calls for) it is awesome.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So DSM … you are refusing to answer a very simple and specific question. Does this constitute a concession?

I have told you what I think you should do and what I would do with my shaman.


So to be clear, you are saying this is your answer?


Like it or not, shamans simply have far fewer and less potent tools to handle “oh shit” moments. You’re basically stuck spamming chloroblast for mediocre healing.

I'll tell you what I think you should do: heal the enchanter, clinch your pussy lips and pray the heals cover enough of the gap for the enchanter to manage an AOE to get shit under control.


Your strategy is just spam healing and nothing else?

Once we get confirmation, I'll answer your question. You do not get to keep dodging questions by simply asking another question.

[Vivitron]

Your ench partner is at 100% health. Your enchanter has a hasted, quadding high dps pet and charm breaks. The mob summons (or doesn’t summon but root broke cause this is a “pickle”). The enchanter is now being wailed on by the pet and the mob.

That is a trick question that highlights one benefit of the shaman: the target isn't attacking the enchanter, it's attacking the shaman. The shaman put in slow aggro right away. The cleric can put in aggro and provide this same benefit, but instead of happening by default it requires some discipline and they probably only bother against a few hard hitting unstunnable targets.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That is a trick question that highlights one benefit of the shaman: the target isn't attacking the enchanter, it's attacking the shaman. The shaman put in slow aggro right away. The cleric can put in aggro and provide this same benefit, but instead of happening by default it requires some discipline and they probably only bother against a few hard hitting unstunnable targets.

This is correct. AoE slow works wonders too if multiple mobs come in. Just AoE slow and you have agro most of the time for at least the two adds, maybe the charmed pet too.

[Troxx]

That is a trick question that highlights one benefit of the shaman: the target isn't attacking the enchanter, it's attacking the shaman. The shaman put in slow aggro right away. The cleric can put in aggro and provide this same benefit, but instead of happening by default it requires some discipline and they probably only bother against a few hard hitting unstunnable targets.

And the scenario where the enchanter has a botched pull yet charm breaks while they are incomming? AoE slow takes 5 seconds to cast. You’re looking at a potentially dead enchanter in 5 seconds. When one of them is buffed to the teeth and quaffing.

For the other where the “mob” is hitting the shaman but the pet broke and is beating on the enchanter … health dropping? Ideally the enchanter can quickly lock it down but be it an interrupted cast or a resisted enchanter stun - the charmer can drop fast.

“Pickle” moments happen. If you haven’t ever seen one … you just haven’t played long enough.


———————

Answer the question directly DSM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And the scenario where the enchanter has a botched pull yet charm breaks while they are incomming? AoE slow takes 5 seconds to cast. You’re looking at a potentially dead enchanter in 5 seconds. When one of them is buffed to the teeth and quaffing.

For the other where the “mob” is hitting the shaman but the pet broke and is beating on the enchanter … health dropping? Ideally the enchanter can quickly lock it down but be it an interrupted cast or a resisted enchanter stun - the charmer can drop fast.

“Pickle” moments happen. If you haven’t ever seen one … you just haven’t played long enough.


———————

Answer the question directly DSM.

You still haven't confirmed your answer. You are saying you would simply heal and nothing else? You have no insight into other strategies?

Once you confirm, I'll answer.

[Trexller]

Monday Morning Quarterback?

or Armchair General?

[Troxx]

I’m asserting that as a shaman healing is probably the most important thing you could do, giving the enchanter a chance to recover and buy time so they could use their own toolkit to get things under control. Other choices exist but when you are the only thing that could save them from death … yeah I’d heal my ass off.

Some of the Alternatives:

You could root a mob, but the stunned or casting enchanter probably isn’t moving. Mob is rooted but still beating down on the enchanter who still hasn’t been healed. If the non-pet mob was rooted or being face tanked by the shaman or shaman pet this might save the enchanter if they aren’t stunned or casting and you rooted the charm pet hitting them. But now the pet is rooted for 3 minutes.

You could cast a single target slow, but now their pet is slowed and the ench still isn’t healed and any other mobs are still not dealt with.

You could cast AoE slow, but with a 5 second cast time (plus any lag in situational awareness and imperfect player reaction time) your enchanter is either dead by the time it landed or got things under control before you finished casting that slow. If the enchanter survived- again they had it under control before you finished casting.

You could do what you stupidly did in that video and start casting malo, stop when you realize it won’t land in time or help …. And end up with 3% health enchanter who was only alive because ANOTHER person saved them.

You could use blind which is, admittedly a very fast cast spell. But would it be on your bar? If the enchanter stepped back would the pet path off stupidly and aggro even more stuff?

——————

Quit playing games. Shamans have a broad toolkit and all of us have been around long enough to know them inside and out.

Answer the question.

Ok professor, educate me.

Your ench partner is at 100% health. Your enchanter has a hasted, quadding high dps pet and charm breaks. The mob summons (or doesn’t summon but root broke cause this is a “pickle”). The enchanter is now being wailed on by the pet and the mob. Or an alternative scenario is that ench gets a bad pull. 2-3 mobs incomming and pet suddenly breaks. All 3-4 mobs (one a beefed up pet) are on the loose.

Please keep in mind that the alternative partner here (cleric) would just fire a longish duration AoE stun to fix the “pickle” in 1 seconds worth of cast time. Even if the spell resists, mobs are now on the cleric who can take a few rounds and backup DA giving thr ench precious time to recover.

Ok professor. Educate me. What do you do?

And … go!

So riddle me this professor … what would DSM do?

Once you provide your answer please explain how that is better than a 1 sec aoe stun that locks everything down followed by superior fast healing as needed. Remember that the cleric also has at least one other no damage fast cast single target stun to use.

Unfortunately I don’t think you’ll reply. As stupid as you are I do think you’re smart enough to clam up when you know you’re wrong.

[Trexller]

Isn't that the entire point of chloroblast?

As an ench its annoying AF when other players fuck with my pet

Sometimes we ench get stunned on break, i got rune v/bedlam, just watch me for a sec, ill get it under control everytime

Dont snare my pet, or slow it, or mez it, or 20 min root it, you aren't helping, you are panicking.

You must understand that if you have a skilled ench in your group, then you are not a group member, you are another pet

[Kevris]

This is magnificent. A two year argument, including some of the original parties. EverQuest is the greatest game of all time.

[Troxx]

As an ench its annoying AF when other players fuck with my pet

Yep. Besides the superior emergency healing, complete heal, and flat out (by a long shot) superior buffs, one of the things that is so awesome about what cleric/ench synergy is that the other things a cleric does to help enchanters in an emergency is that those stuns don’t break mez and bump heads with the “oh shit” measures enchanters possess.

I’ll be honest - I have typically recommended enchanters I have duo’d with skip the reagent-costing runes unless we are doing something extra spicy. They don’t need it - cause I won’t let them die even without it.

———————

DSM.

We are waiting.

Educate us and provide your answer FFS. What would DSM do? After you have provided your answer explain how it’s better than the complete control and lock down of a 1 second aoe stun followed by a helpful heal.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Quit playing games. Shamans have a broad toolkit and all of us have been around long enough to know them inside and out.


I am not playing games. You said these two things:


Like it or not, shamans simply have far fewer and less potent tools to handle “oh shit” moments. You’re basically stuck spamming chloroblast for mediocre healing.

I'll tell you what I think you should do: heal the enchanter, clinch your pussy lips and pray the heals cover enough of the gap for the enchanter to manage an AOE to get shit under control.


You claimed to be an expert on Shamans, but these two statements are ignoring everything else a Shaman can do. The only person who was playing games was yourself. It took you quite a few posts to actually admit you were wrong here. Thank you for admitting you were wrong by providing other examples.

Now, to your scenarios:

Scenario 1:

First issue is what Vivitron pointed out. The mob is going to be slowed by the Shaman, and the Shaman is going to be tanking, so the mob being attacked would stay with the Shaman, not go to the Enchanter. A hasted dual wielding pet in a place like Sebilis is doing around 100 DPS. A level 60 Enchanter with Rune V + Bedlam, STA, and FoS or Magi Shielding is going to have at least 3k worth of HP. At 100 DPS, the Enchanter is going to die in 20-30 seconds. Plenty of time to Slow, Blind, Root, or Heal, depending on the specific situation.

Both Root and Blind have a two second cast time if you need to be as fast as possible. If the Enchanter isn't stunned, you can just use Root and they can back off. If the Enchanter is stunned, you can use Blind and step in to tank the pet. It would be a short distance since the Shaman is tanking the mob, and the Enchanter pet was next to the Shaman since it was attacking the mob. The charm broken pet will attack the closest player while blinded, regardless of hate. If you are really worried about charm breaks, you can have blind on bar. Personally I don't normally need to go that hard, as well piloted Enchanters are going to be fine most of the time anyway.

I've been in plenty of single pet break scenarios, it really isn't a big deal if the Enchanter is actually using Rune V, Bedlam, and Stuns. Remember that the pet is going to be Maloed, so the pet will break less often, and stuns, slows, blinds, or roots will all be easier to land.

Scenario 2:

You can use strategy to avoid this scenario in the first place, but let's address the scenario first.

If the distance from the mobs to the Enchanter is max casting length, you'll have enough time to land an AoE slow and catch the mobs that are running. It takes about 4-5 seconds to reach the Enchanter at that distance. This will remove the mobs running at the Enchanter, and we are back to Scenario 1, where the Enchanter is only getting hit by their pet. With the 2-3 mobs AoE slowed and attacking the Shaman, it'll be easier to land a Torpor or spot heal on the Enchanter so they can deal with their pet in the 20-30 seconds they have to live. With the pet being Maloed, you are less likely to get a resist on stun, mez, charm, etc.

Now, there are ways you can simply avoid this scenario all together. Let's take a look at Howling Stones, where mobs have Harm Touch. Shamans have a pet. You can summon the pet, pre-torpor it, and then run the pet into a room of 4 mobs. This will cause them to pop their harm touches on the pet. The Shaman can AoE slow while the Enchanter does an AoE Mez and blur.

In both scenarios, Malo is reducing the chances of a Charm Break to begin with. This means you are less likely to get into this problem in the first place.

I'll often do the pulling in an Enchanter/Shaman group as well so that way the mob is already slowed and agroed on me rather than the Enchanter. If there is a Monk/SK in the group, they are doing the pulling and can flop bad pulls.

[Troxx]

Once you provide your answer please explain how that is better than a 1 sec aoe stun that locks everything down followed by superior fast healing as needed. Remember that the cleric also has at least one other no damage fast cast single target stun to use.

Finish the assignment.

For the record:

-a hasted quadding pet will do more dps on a cloth caster than on an xp group mob

-you assume an enchanter with self buffs (or focus) and rune will have 3k worth of hp. You are assuming a level of gear superior to what my casually raid geared nec and mage have.

-malo will have an impact on charm break frequency but 100% of charms will break eventually

You talk a big game about all the spells you could use to handle an unexpected emergency … but without prophetic foresight what are the chances you had aoe slow or blind loaded to begin with. Remember now … you’ve only got 8 spell slots - more than half of which are likely permanently occupied by core spells: heal, big slow, torpor, root, canni … that’s 5 spells right there and we haven’t even begun to consider all the other crap you will want loaded at any moment.

Once you provide your answer please explain how that is better than a 1 sec aoe stun that locks everything down followed by superior fast healing as needed. Remember that the cleric also has at least one other no damage fast cast single target stun to use.

Finish the assignment

[Troxx]

Remember this isn’t a discussion of whether or not a shaman can get the job done with an enchanter. They can. It is a discussion about who can handle it better. Shaman’s do not handle it better than clerics ….

Hence your obsession with allowing a pocket cleric

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Finish the assignment.

For the record:

-a hasted quadding pet will do more dps on a cloth caster than on an xp group mob

-you assume an enchanter with self buffs (or focus) and rune will have 3k worth of hp. You are assuming a level of gear superior to what my casually raid geared nec and mage have.

-malo will have an impact on charm break frequency but 100% of charms will break eventually

You talk a big game about all the spells you could use to handle an unexpected emergency … but without prophetic foresight what are the chances you had aoe slow or blind loaded to begin with. Remember now … you’ve only got 8 spell slots - more than half of which are likely permanently occupied by core spells: heal, big slow, torpor, root, canni … that’s 5 spells right there and we haven’t even begun to consider all the other crap you will want loaded at any moment.



Finish the assignment

You misunderstood the 3k HP thing. An EC geared enchanter would have around 2k HP + 1k rune for 3K total. I was not referring to a well geared Enchanter.

Yes, Charms eventually break, but you know what the max duration of the charm is lol. You can plan around that while using malo to re-charm the pet before the charm wears off.

I've saved Enchanters before with these spells. No prophecy needed. Just like you don't need to be a prophet to use stuns.

I am well aware of spell slot limits, and it isn't difficult to retool your spell bar to match the scenario. Using basic root instead of paralyzing earth is an easy swap if you want faster cast speed. You can swap a DoT for a Blind if your group is fine with not using Shaman DPS, etc.

As for your "assignment" lol, I answered your question about the scenario in question. You tacked that extra question on later.

The downside to Stun Command is it has a 30 second recast time. If it gets resisted then you won't have access to it for the rest of the "pickle" moment. You also won't be able to use it if two "pickle" moments happen within that 30 seconds.

Finally, I never said Stun Command and Cleric heals were bad. I disagree with the idea that they are tipping the scales enough so that you should pick a Cleric over a Shaman when looking at a four player caster/priest grpup. I've saved plenty of Enchanters with my Shaman, no Stun Command needed.

I do not have an obsession with pocket clerics. I simply live in reality, where pocket clerics are a common occurence. They have been around for many years, and aren't going away.

[Vexenu]

DSM is still desperately trying to theorycraft a Shaman response to an ill-timed charm break even though we literally have a video of him facing that exact scenario, in which he did absolutely nothing useful.

He will now respond to this post and blame the Enchanter, completely ignoring the fact that a Cleric could have easily saved the Enchanter in spite of his bad play, which indisputably demonstrates the superiority of the Cleric toolkit for this purpose.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is still desperately trying to theorycraft a Shaman response to an ill-timed charm break even though we literally have a video of him facing that exact scenario, in which he did absolutely nothing useful.

He will now respond to this post and blame the Enchanter, completely ignoring the fact that a Cleric could have easily saved the Enchanter in spite of his bad play, which indisputably demonstrates the superiority of the Cleric toolkit for this purpose.

As you can see, Vexenu still doesn't understand the basics of Enchanter, like using Rune to reduce damage. He will cling to one single example of an Enchanter misplaying in order to attack the Shaman class, because he cannot actually back up his position.

[Vexenu]

As you can see, Vexenu still doesn't understand the basics of Enchanter, like using Rune to reduce damage. He will cling to one single example of an Enchanter misplaying in order to attack the Shaman class, because he cannot actually back up his position.


He will now respond to this post and blame the Enchanter, completely ignoring the fact that a Cleric could have easily saved the Enchanter in spite of his bad play, which indisputably demonstrates the superiority of the Cleric toolkit for this purpose.

Lol. Lmao even.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol. Lmao even.

I am just speaking the truth. You are so proud of finding a single instance of an Enchanter running into the middle of four mobs without Rune. And you think this is the healer's fault. It's a very amsuing idea. This is because you can't back up your position with something better. This is the best you have, and it isn't anything.

[Troxx]

Lol. Lmao even.

Yep. He is back to flailing.

Lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yep. He is back to flailing.

Lol

The only flailing is from yourself. I answered your questions, and you have no rebuttal. You were wrong about what Shamans can do in a bad charm break scenario, and had to walk that back after many posts dodging this. People can read the thread and see who's flailing.

[Vexenu]

completely ignoring the fact that a Cleric could have easily saved the Enchanter in spite of his bad play, which indisputably demonstrates the superiority of the Cleric toolkit for this purpose.


the fact that a Cleric could have easily saved the Enchanter in spite of his bad play


a Cleric could have easily saved the Enchanter

Nero fiddled while Rome burned, DSM Maloed while Chanter died.

We have the tapes, folks. This man is a menace. Imagine casting Malo on a charm break? It's like going into the ER with an arterial bleed and your doctor just offers you some painkillers. Malpractice!

"Doc, what's going on here? Why aren't you helping me? I'm dying here, throw me a life line, I'm begging you."

Then, as you gracelessly expire, the last thing you ever see is your doctor staring down over you with this dumb expression on his face:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=112282&dateline=1609282158

[bcbrown]

Malopractice!

[Trexller]

Nero fiddled while Rome burned, DSM Maloed while Chanter died.

ROFLMAO

sorry DSM, i mean this as a friend

Your chances of a comeback here are worse than Biden's

[Troxx]

https://i.gifer.com/origin/51/51092fdef0176cd8f45fe6bee865619a_w200.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When people troll instead of rebut, they have conceded. Thank you for the consessions via lack of rebuttal and trolling.

Pretending it is normal for an Enchanter not to rune before entering a dangerous situation is not helping anybody's positions lol.

[Troxx]

When people troll instead of rebut, they have conceded. Thank you for the consessions via lack of rebuttal and trolling.

https://media.tenor.com/1afM2qT0HaUAAAAM/in-a-world-of-pure-imagination-willy-wonka-and-the-chocolate-factory.gif

[Trexller]

Malopractice

Alot of great zingers here tonight

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only reason to troll in a debate is because you cannot win, and are instead trying to win via underhanded methods.

There is no reason to purposely ruin your credibility via trolling if you can win the argument normally. Troxx is a proven troll, and his credibility has long since been destroyed due to the constant trolling when he loses a debate.

Hence, it is obvious you are conceding by resorting trolling instead of a proper rebuttal.

[Trexller]

Idk man

Theres alot of opinion around here being spoken as dogma

[Troxx]

And there we go fellas. We have come full circle. Everyone who disagrees with DSM is a troll.

Crying “troll!” is DSM’s way of curling up in the fetal position with his thumb in his mouth.

https://y.yarn.co/3b87890e-b510-46c8-b8b3-3279a3094781_text.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And there we go fellas. We have come full circle. Everyone who disagrees with DSM is a troll.

Crying “troll!” is DSM’s way of curling up in the fetal position with his thumb in his mouth.

https://y.yarn.co/3b87890e-b510-46c8-b8b3-3279a3094781_text.gif

This is a straw man. You have no evidence to suggest I call people who disagree with me trolls.

I call you a troll because you are one. You admitted it, and admitted there are other people trolling lol:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.


People can look at the hundreds of troll posts you've made in this very thread. They can look at your signature and location too.

Blatantly lying isn't helping your trashed reputation, or your argument.

Troxx cannot rebut these posts, and has therefore conceded via trolling:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691767&postcount=5185

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691778&postcount=5188

[Troxx]

Why not just quote my whole post instead of a clip. It is solid gold and very relevant here:

Guys, DSM claims he doesn’t care about trolling

But …

-spends a whole lot his time complaining about trolling
-falsely labels people trolls for disagreeing with him
-labels anyone a troll who agrees with someone who thinks is trolling him
-anyone who he has labeled a troll is now only trolling whether or not they are trolling vs providing discussion/input
-has now apparently taken up status as the p99 forum White Knight of the anti-trolling defamation league (henceforth to be known as the ATDL)
-now is the champion of all those “others” being trolled (he’s not a victim right) even though nobody’s ass but his is being trolled

https://media.tenor.com/images/60d4824e774b4264a8cc1fe25b904557/tenor.gif

Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.

The collective we (with a capital W) will provide meaningful input and thoughtful discussions in threads. Now, I can’t speak for the rest of you, but as far as I’m concerned… when a thread becomes another “DSM thread” … when that inflection point is reached and reason is traded for madness (shameless Gandalf quote) … I will happily continue to “troll” my merry little ass along.

Why?

1. It is entertaining
2. It does actually help the community.

To expand on point two, it communicates to the rest of the players who the resident town fool is. You see, when a thread becomes a “DSM thread” we have already devolved into the realm of unproductive. Heaven forbid a “new guy” here mistakes DSM for a source of information to be taken seriously.

Consider it a public service.

And DSM, your audience (all present to include any silent readers) also have brain cells. They can and will come to the logical conclusions.

These threads always end up you against literally everyone else.

This thread’s now got wheels of its own. See you in 20 pages!

https://media.tenor.com/MdD-fqYK0X4AAAAC/buckle-up-buckaroo-caitlyn-jenner.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I linked the post so people can read it if they want. You admitted you are a troll and that other trolls exist. This dismantles your argument about me calling other people trolls without cause. It also further ruins your credibility.

You reap what you sow. If you want to win a debate, you'll need to do a lot better than trolling, lying, and dodging.

Troxx cannot rebut these posts, and has therefore conceded via trolling:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691767&postcount=5185

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691778&postcount=5188

[Troxx]

By the way, it you want to see someone with a double black belt in trolling execute magnificence … at the very beginning of that thread:

Skip the pet. Just root rot adds with epic off to the side to surpass mage dps.

Page one of that thread and a direct reference to this thread.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=424611

Dude should win an Olympic gold medal in rustling DSM jimmies. What should have been over in less than 1 full page exploded into 17 pages.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only rustled jimmies are the trolls like yourself rage posting because you lost a debate. Again. It doesn't hurt me at all when you constantly embarass yourself on these forums.

Troxx cannot rebut these posts, and has therefore conceded via trolling:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691767&postcount=5185

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691778&postcount=5188

[bcbrown]

This is a straw man. You have no evidence to suggest I call people who disagree with me trolls.

This dismantles your argument about me calling other people trolls without cause. It also further ruins your credibility.

Surely you cannot claim you've never called someone a troll just because they disagreed with you in a respectful, substantive manner?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Surely you cannot claim you've never called someone a troll just because they disagreed with you in a respectful, substantive manner?

I have never done so, and you can check my post history. I call people trolls when they troll. It's really that simple. If you can show me a post where I called someone a troll, I can find the trolling that caused it. If you want to not be called a troll, do not troll.

[Troxx]

Trolling is the act of intentionally stirring the pot to get a reaction while having no actual interest in the topic at hand.

That’s a very different thing from just laughing at and insulting you for being retarded.

[bcbrown]

You're doubling down? You've never once called someone a troll in an unwarranted fashion? Perhaps to someone who disagreed in a substantive and friendly manner?

[Trexller]

Trolling is the act of intentionally stirring the pot to get a reaction while having no actual interest in the topic at hand

+1

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trolling is the act of intentionally stirring the pot to get a reaction while having no actual interest in the topic at hand.

That’s a very different thing from just laughing at and insulting you for being retarded.

https://www.esafety.gov.au/young-people/trolling#:~:text=Something%20has%20happened-,What%20is%20trolling%3F,believe%2C%20just%20to%20 cause%20drama.


Trolling is when someone posts or comments online to ‘bait’ people, which means deliberately provoking an argument or emotional reaction. In some cases they say things they don’t even believe, just to cause drama.


It's amusing when an admitted troll tries to change the definition of trolling to try and not seem like a troll. You've done all these things many times in this thread. Insulting someone when you lost an argument to stir an emotional reaction is trolling. Sadly you do not get the emotional reaction, as it is trivial to rebut your nonsense. Insulting autistic people is not a good look for you either.

You're doubling down? You've never once called someone a troll in an unwarranted fashion? Perhaps to someone who disagreed in a substantive and friendly manner?

Provide an example, and I'll show you the context. You are free to claim it wasn't trolling of course. Troxx is trying to change the definition of trolling right now. The readers can decide how honest you are.

[Trexller]

They are only trolling because you are not making a strong cogent point

You DO have a point, and you aren't 100% wrong, they can't be expected to internalize it all, your post format is dissertation.

Give us the distilled concise breakdown

[Ripqozko]

DSM is the reason kittens cant win a vulak

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They are only trolling because you are not making a strong cogent point

You DO have a point, and you aren't 100% wrong, they can't be expected to internalize it all, your post format is dissertation.

Give us the distilled concise breakdown

If I make my argument concise, they will take it out of context and twist it. If I make my post more detailed, they don't read it. It is not my problem that they are unable to argue in good faith, and must resort to trolling.

If they stopped trolling and read my posts without simply trying to find a gotcha, a normal discussion would be possible.

[bcbrown]

Provide an example, and I'll show you the context. You are free to claim it wasn't trolling of course. Troxx is trying to change the definition of trolling right now. The readers can decide how honest you are.

Let's look at this thread: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3634462#post3634462. Jimajam starts with some pointed but gentle disagreement:

statistics can prove anything - I think you are so focused on statistics you are overlooking practical reality.

Again, disagreed. What matters is how characters end up geared, not statistics. Statistics may guide creation and gearing decisions but if those decisions don’t meet their objectives then the statistics must have overlooked some assumptions.

Rip’s Magelo is very top end. Yours is decent. Yet both have issues capping core tank stats with/without buffs.

I thought you said having high str gave the ability to focus on +int gear though? Maybe you need to follow your own advice more aggressively if you really value int over str/sta?

Then he gives an objectively fair assessment on the disparity between your perspective and mine:
DSM values levelling as an ordeal to go through that unlocks end game. Others view the end game just being a postgame/'winners room' for people that exhausted/completed the real game content (levelling up).

IMO this is why he values levelling stats much lower than endgame bis stats.

Then he responds to DSM again, ending his post with:
:)

Confirmed mad treble post!

DSM starts his response by accusing Jimjam of misreading:

You completely misread my post in it's entirety.

And ends by somehow misinterpreting this clearly self-deprecating joke as an insult.
I am not mad at all. I am simply pointing out that people continue to post insults and baseless opinions. It is honestly sad that people care so much about trying to be right, that they are willing to mislead new players.

Jimjam, pleasantly & politely, points out that it was self-deprecating:

I was the one who made the treble post, hence am the mad one, DSM. Please reread my post as you have not understood. :)

And then DSM bites his face off:

Please stop trolling threads that are designed to help new players. Why do you need to be so destructive and unhelpful?

Jimjam was hurt:
Wow. I've not insulted you once, yet you accuse me of trolling, being destructive and unhelpful?

[Troxx]

I’ll say it again the intent behind trolling is to simply cause a fuss. The troll does not have any interest in the subject at hand other than to get people worked up. No other goal exists other than the reactionary response of others (typically otherS plural).

That is a very different thing than stepping back and laughing at an idiot for being an idiot (and pointing it out).

I’m not trolling you DSM. I was actually interested in this discussion. If you read from the start you will see that I was summoned here BY NAME because people know I parse a ton and have a level 60 mage.

So no, not trolling. There isn’t any pleasure in it. Your autistic behavior and responses are far too PREDICTABLE and ultimately boil down to calling people trolls and “thanking” them for “conceding” when no concession was given.

If you’re tired of being laughed at, perhaps try being less … you?

You are the laughing stock of this community.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let's look at this thread: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3634462#post3634462. Jimajam starts with some pointed but gentle disagreement:



Then he gives an objectively fair assessment on the disparity between your perspective and mine:


Then he responds to DSM again, ending his post with:


DSM starts his response by accusing Jimjam of misreading:



And ends by somehow misinterpreting this clearly self-deprecating joke as an insult.


Jimjam, pleasantly & politely, points out that it was self-deprecating:



And then DSM bites his face off:



Jimjam was hurt:

Claiming "please stop trolling" is biting someone's head off is silly. This alone shows you are reading this exchange in a biased manner, where you are showing Jimjam in a positive light, and me in a negative light.

I disagree that Jimjam was being polite here. It sounded like he was mocking my honest assessment that he needed to re-read my post by reposting "Please reread my post as you have not understood". Mocking someone like this is an example of trolling.

I have nothing against Jimjam. If he says he didn't mean it in that way, I'll be happy to retract what I said. I never call someone a troll without a reason. It's possible I misread someones intent, but I am not using this as some tactic to discredit people. Your example doesn't show this. What else do you have?

[bcbrown]

You said he was trolling, he was hurt by your accusations, and he was clearly not trolling.

[Zuranthium]

Jesus christ you people are still going on and on, when 4 mages is definitely the best group ever. I will let you all in on a secret to end this discussion: if there are exactly 4 mages in a party and each summons a pet of different element type, the game treats it as if each pet is all 4 pets at the same time. All of their HP, AC, regen, spells, resistances, and attack rounds, all of it, added together. So you get 4 pets doing up to 16 attacks per round, spamming stun and root, having huge damage shields and being generally unkillable. You're welcome.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said he was trolling, he was hurt by your accusations, and he was clearly not trolling.

Troxx also just said he isn't trolling:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691828&postcount=5220

Do you agree with Troxx that he isn't trolling?

[bcbrown]

You said "You have no evidence to suggest I call people who disagree with me trolls." and I provided that evidence, when you called Jimjam a troll for disagreeing with you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said "You have no evidence to suggest I call people who disagree with me trolls." and I provided that evidence, when you called Jimjam a troll for disagreeing with you.

And you still don't have evidence. I disagree with your assessment of what happened in that exchange. Your bias by claiming "please stop trolling" is biting someone's head off is apparent.

You dodged my question about Troxx, as it makes a point that is relevant to the exchange with Jimjam.

Do you agree with Troxx's self assessment that he is not trolling?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691828&postcount=5220

[Trexller]

Jesus christ you people are still going on and on, when 4 mages is definitely the best group ever. I will let you all in on a secret to end this discussion: if there are exactly 4 mages in a party and each summons a pet of different element type, the game treats it as if each pet is all 4 pets at the same time. All of their HP, AC, regen, spells, resistances, and attack rounds, all of it, added together. So you get 4 pets doing up to 16 attacks per round, spamming stun and root, having huge damage shields and being generally unkillable. You're welcome.

mage pets are unclassically nerfed on p99

unclassic low pet dmg, unclassic agro, when a pet dies the mage gets 100% of all the agro that the pet generated and it's very difficult to get mobs to agro other targets if nothing else was close to the pet's total agro number

[bcbrown]

And you still don't have evidence. I disagree with your assessment of what happened in that exchange.

If you think Jimjam was trolling in that exchange, your definition is clearly grossly distorted, and I'm satisfied that will be clear to any disinterested party.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you think Jimjam was trolling in that exchange, your definition is clearly grossly distorted, and I'm satisfied that will be clear to any disinterested party.

It's actually quite easy to see who's definition is grossly distorted. Let's find some common ground on who we think is a troll.

Lets start with Troxx. Let it be noted he did admit to being a troll, and he admitted seeing other trolls too:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.


Let it also be noted that Bcbrown consistently dodges the question about whether or not Troxx is a troll, and I've never seen Bcbrown call Troxx out for this.

Can you explain why you think Troxx is or is not a Troll?

You aren't going to convince people they should listen to you about what the definition of a troll is if you keep dodging this question, especially when Troxx has admitted to being a troll.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just to put the final nail in the coffin of Bcbrown's Jimjam example:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634515&postcount=369


Thank you for the apology. I apologize that I misread your post. Remember that I can only see your text, not your intent. That is why we need to be careful with what we post. This includes myself.

I apologized to Jimjam for misreading his earlier post. This was conveniently left out by Bcbrown.

Bcbrown also conveniently keeps dodging the question about Troxx being a troll or not:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691842&postcount=5229

[bcbrown]

I apologized to Jimjam for misreading his earlier post. This was conveniently left out by Bcbrown.

Ah, so you do agree you mistakenly accused him of trolling!

It was gracious of you to apologize.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah, so you do agree you mistakenly accused him of trolling!

I did apologize to him for misreading his post. This doesn't support your claim I use the word troll to attack people who disagree with me.

Will you stop dodging the question about Troxx being a troll or not? It's difficult to take you seriously about the concept of trolling when you can't answer such a simple question:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3691842&postcount=5229

It's actually quite easy to see who's definition is grossly distorted. Let's find some common ground on who we think is a troll.

Lets start with Troxx. Let it be noted he did admit to being a troll, and he admitted seeing other trolls too:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114



Let it also be noted that Bcbrown consistently dodges the question about whether or not Troxx is a troll, and I've never seen Bcbrown call Troxx out for this.

Can you explain why you think Troxx is or is not a Troll?

You aren't going to convince people they should listen to you about what the definition of a troll is if you keep dodging this question, especially when Troxx has admitted to being a troll.

[bcbrown]

You called him a troll. All he did was disagree with you. Sorry you can't see that.

Look, I'll answer your question. I'll give you my definition of trolling, and I'll address Troxx's behavior. If I do so, will you give me your definition of trolling?

To be clear, my answer will be several thousand words, deeply academic in some parts, pedantic in others. You will probably call it silly, but I will write it very seriously.

If I write that response, will you provide a definition of trolling?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You called him a troll. All he did was disagree with you. Sorry you can't see that.

Look, I'll answer your question. I'll give you my definition of trolling, and I'll address Troxx's behavior. If I do so, will you give me your definition of trolling?

To be clear, my answer will be several thousand words, deeply academic in some parts, pedantic in others. You will probably call it silly, but I will write it very seriously.

If I write that response, will you provide a definition of trolling?

Please write your response. I am honestly curious to see how you will back up the claim you made in the first sentence, let alone the rest of it.

[Toxigen]

DSM is the reason kittens cant win a vulak

Also that malopractice had me rolling. Good stuff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am quite interested in seeing how Bcbrown will reconcile these three quotes:

You called him [Troxx] a troll. All he [Troxx] did was disagree with you. Sorry you can't see that.


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114


Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324844


Trolling
If you must troll another user, keep it contained to Rants and Flames. Don’t over do it.

[Troxx]

Analogy:

Having admitted to consuming alcoholic beverages recreationally at times does not mean a person is constantly drinking or an alcoholic.

Trolling is the act of intentionally stirring the pot to get a reaction while having no actual interest in the topic at hand.

That’s a very different thing from just laughing at and insulting you for being retarded.

A good solid 40-50% of my interactions with you have been and still are in good faith trying to have a discussion with you. 49-59% is just making fun your lack of sanity and obtuse interactions you have with anyone who disagrees than you within the context of this game, mechanics, strategy or otherwise.

Less than 1% would I describe as trolling.

I have, in fact, intentionally avoided being involved with this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=431618

If it doesn’t directly relate to the the game, I have no intention of specifically engaging with or targeting you.

Your only way of backing yourself out of a corner where you are wrong is to accuse the other person of trolling and then flatly disregarding their input. You have done it probably over a thousand times (individual posts) to dozens of different individuals.

It’s simultaneously sad and funny.

[Duik]

Maybe you can provide some videos for once, instead of only asking other people. You have yet to provide even one supoorting your case.
You are the dumb cunt posting videos in your sig (that no fucking one that covets their sanity choose to show) that you perport to display "peak play" otherwise why post it as proof of your skillz? Logic...

Here is a video of me playing, my mom said i could post them if I clean up my basement room.

It isnt up to others to prove you are wrong. Your videos are all the proof we need.

In before you again! You naughty bad troll. Mommy said I can just ignore you and keep writting on my napkins.

Thanks DSM's mom.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Analogy:

Having admitted to consuming alcoholic beverages recreationally at times does not mean a person is constantly drinking or an alcoholic.



A good solid 40-50% of my interactions with you have been and still are in good faith trying to have a discussion with you. 49-59% is just making fun your lack of sanity and obtuse interactions you have with anyone who disagrees than you within the context of this game, mechanics, strategy or otherwise.

Less than 1% would I describe as trolling.

I have, in fact, intentionally avoided being involved with this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=431618

If it doesn’t directly relate to the the game, I have no intention of specifically engaging with or targeting you.

Your only way of backing yourself out of a corner where you are wrong is to accuse the other person of trolling and then flatly disregarding their input. You have done it probably over a thousand times (individual posts) to dozens of different individuals.

It’s simultaneously sad and funny.

Look at Troxx trying to backtrack now. He has finally realized his bad behavior has ruined his credibility.

Unfortunately he has literally hundreds of posts attacking me, insulting me, lying about me, etc. He does this precisely because he is not interested in a good faith debate. You don't act this way in good faith.

He is trying to pretend this is normal behavior, and not trolling.

[Troxx]

My credibility is just fine thanks. Reality is not just how you specifically define it.

Attacking you? Sure, finally something we can agree on. I’ve got hundreds of posts belittling you … within the context of your absurd behavior while discussing whatever topic is at hand. If you don’t want to be called an idiot … maybe try being less idiot?

This is hilarious.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My credibility is just fine thanks. Reality is not just how you specifically define it.

Attacking you? Sure, finally something we can agree on. I’ve got hundreds of posts belittling you … within the context of your absurd behavior while discussing whatever topic is at hand. If you don’t want to be called an idiot … maybe try being less idiot?

This is hilarious.

Hundreds of troll posts show otherwise. Your credibility is trashed. Its easy to see when you dodge questions you can't answer and resort to insults instread.

If you actually want to win an argument and start to regain your credibility, try providing evidence and logic, instead of calling people idiots and assuming that is enough. And you wonder why your credibility is trashed.

We can start here:


If you read from the start you will see that I was summoned here BY NAME because people know I parse a ton and have a level 60 mage.


You claim to parse a lot, but have yet to provide any mage logs after two years. You instead spent hundreds of posts trolling to avoid providing logs. We had to get some from Allishia.

[Toxigen]

oh yeah boys 1k page party inc

[Troxx]

You claim to parse a lot, but have yet to provide any mage logs after two years. You instead spent hundreds of posts trolling to avoid providing logs. We had to get some from Allishia.

The fuck are you talking about? I do parse a lot and this is the page in the thread where I started posting the first of said parses iirc

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923&page=19

You can find more on page 25 and beyond that I’ll let you scroll through the rest of this thread on your own.

Are you smoking crack, heorin or both? Unemployed or on disability as well I’m assuming.

Oh well - back to work. I’ll check in on you mangs in a few hours

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The fuck are you talking about? I do parse a lot and this is the page in the thread where I started posting the first of said parses iirc

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923&page=19

Are you smoking crack, heorin or both?

Clearly you are the one smoking. I said logs, not parses. Parses come from logs. If you have the parses, you have the logs too, and can post them on request. Two years and no logs.

You posted hundreds of troll posts instead to dodge having to post the logs. Allishia had to do it for you.


Beggars can’t be choosers. Parses are directly reflective of logs. Take off your tinfoil conspiracy theory hat.

And no, I’m not going to start video taping my gaming sessions either.

And you wonder why your credibility is trashed. When people ask for evidence that you can easily provide, you dodge by saying "beggars can't be choosers", and "everybody is a conspiracy theorist" for pointing out you dodged providing the logs.

[7thGate]

I kind of agree actually that Malo is the correct response to a normal, single mob charm break in many situations. The assumption should be that the enchanter can recover correctly themselves, and the primary goal should be getting a malo refresh in before they recharm it in order to minimize charm breaks. If the enchanter hasn't landed stun by the time malo finishes, you probably need to get in melee and flash of light it. If they're going to die before you can land malo + flash of light (which I believe DSM has correctly noted should not be the case if you're using Rune and Bedlam), you need to see he's dying super fast and duck Malo to flash of light immediately.

This is less safe than having a cleric but also higher DPS, which is basically the tradeoff with a shaman. Shaman does more damage than a cleric in a few ways, but is somewhat less safe. Shaman DPS boosts over a cleric mostly come from turning the mob to increase charm pet damage due to attacking from behind, lower number of charm beaks from malo, then also some DoT and the pet. All of that combined should add up to something like a 50% dps boost over a charm pet alone.

Specifically at 60, for handling a charm break with active target, Shaman will have aggro on the secondary since they're torp tanking. That shouldn't really go much differently than the random charm break while unengaged.

Handling a bad pull is harder, but you probably do the best by sitting down in the path of the train, which I believe should immedaitely aggro the stuff that socialed off the failed pacify (I assume if the enchanter is pulling, this is why you got multiples) and might also get the mob you failed the pacify on, though I'm less sure about that.

I haven't done the sit intercept on a shaman, but I've done it to block a train on Jayya using Nimble to intercept a huge train of stuff to give people 12 seconds to respond to it. Shaman has to actually live through tanking whatever the bad pull is and you might have problems if you don't stand back up before the mobs hit you, but if you do it right, are decently AC geared and have Torp active pre-pull it should give the enchatner time to try for AOE stuns or mezzes I think.

[Troxx]

In PoP the best 4 casters / /priest crew was 3 mages + 1 cleric.... or just 4 mages

Troxx has a 60 mage and has run many parses, I am betting he can provide this data as well.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3494520&postcount=19


Again … yeah I was asked to provide input and data - which I did

Clearly you are the one smoking. I said logs, not parses. Parses come from logs. If you have the parses, you have the logs too, and can post them on request. Two years and no logs.

You posted hundreds of troll posts instead to dodge having to post the logs. Allishia had to do it for you.

Beggars can’t be choosers. Parses are directly reflective of logs. Take off your tinfoil conspiracy theory hat.

And no, I’m not going to start video taping my gaming sessions either.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I kind of agree actually that Malo is the correct response to a normal, single mob charm break in many situations. The assumption should be that the enchanter can recover correctly themselves, and the primary goal should be getting a malo refresh in before they recharm it in order to minimize charm breaks. If the enchanter hasn't landed stun by the time malo finishes, you probably need to get in melee and flash of light it. If they're going to die before you can land malo + flash of light (which I believe DSM has correctly noted should not be the case if you're using Rune and Bedlam), you need to see he's dying super fast and duck Malo to flash of light immediately.

This is less safe than having a cleric but also higher DPS, which is basically the tradeoff with a shaman. Shaman does more damage than a cleric in a few ways, but is somewhat less safe. Shaman DPS boosts over a cleric mostly come from turning the mob to increase charm pet damage due to attacking from behind, lower number of charm beaks from malo, then also some DoT and the pet. All of that combined should add up to something like a 50% dps boost over a charm pet alone.

Specifically at 60, for handling a charm break with active target, Shaman will have aggro on the secondary since they're torp tanking. That shouldn't really go much differently than the random charm break while unengaged.

Handling a bad pull is harder, but you probably do the best by sitting down in the path of the train, which I believe should immedaitely aggro the stuff that socialed off the failed pacify (I assume if the enchanter is pulling, this is why you got multiples) and might also get the mob you failed the pacify on, though I'm less sure about that.

I haven't done the sit intercept on a shaman, but I've done it to block a train on Jayya using Nimble to intercept a huge train of stuff to give people 12 seconds to respond to it. Shaman has to actually live through tanking whatever the bad pull is and you might have problems if you don't stand back up before the mobs hit you, but if you do it right, are decently AC geared and have Torp active pre-pull it should give the enchatner time to try for AOE stuns or mezzes I think.

Agreed. I appreciate your objective assessment of the situation.

[7thGate]

I will note that sub 60, I suspect this doesn't work as well. With no torpor I think you're probably going to get downtime from trying to tank, heal, canni and slow that will probably offset any additional DPS you might be bringing. If you're not tanking it becomes harder to manage a normal charm break since you don't have aggro on one of them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will note that sub 60, I suspect this doesn't work as well. With no torpor I think you're probably going to get downtime from trying to tank, heal, canni and slow that will probably offset any additional DPS you might be bringing. If you're not tanking it becomes harder to manage a normal charm break since you don't have aggro on one of them.

Yeah sub 60 a Shaman is less effective. But I am not too worried about that, as a group of four casters with an Enchanter is going to be leveling fast anyway. If the group plans on leveling to 60, the focus should be the level 60 composition. It's not difficult to level in P99, especially with a group like this.

[bcbrown]

I am quite interested in seeing how Bcbrown will reconcile these three quotes:

You called him [Troxx] a troll. All he [Troxx] did was disagree with you. Sorry you can't see that.

For someone who frequently accuses others of misreading, it is somewhat ironic how often you misread others. I was clearly referring to Jimjam there.

"You called Jimjam a troll, and all Jimjam did was disagree with you. Sorry you can't see that."

Sorry you can't see that.

Longer response incoming! It's pretty stupid and funny but also quite serious. Just need to give it a proofread so I don't have to edit my post a dozen times.