Self found shaman

[Bobjenson]

Hi all,

Still trying to decide on race but leaning toward barb.

Any advise wouls be awesome.


Thanks

[Jibartik]

Barb is good for self funding because qhills and bandits.

[Elizondo]

If you're making the character because you like the look of a particular race, roll whatever you want

If you want to roll the best Shaman race you roll Ogre

It's not even close

[Crede]

Best overall. Troll.

Best soloer at 60. Ogre.

Best raider. Iksar

Best faction. Barb.

I went troll on mine, if I could do it over again I’d probably go iksar.

[Elizondo]

There are items in the game that give regen

There are no items in the game that give FSI

Ogre is the only choice

[Toxigen]

There are items in the game that give regen

There are no items in the game that give FSI

Ogre is the only choice

Not true at all. FSI is the most overrated crap unless you're doing extremely tough solo challenges. If OP has no aspirations to be a solo god and would rather have an easier time leveling, its troll or iksar...just pick based on looks (iksar kinda wins out with better starting zone).

[PatChapp]

Iksar also gets the amazing hate gear for practically free dkp. Falls right into the self found theme.

[Balladin]

Any race are good

But if you want to choose the SHM EZ mode: go for Ogre

[Bobjenson]

Really helpful.

I think I'm going barb as this is more for fun and exploring.

Any recommendation on progression gear? I plan to make my own banded and help other newbs but wasnt surr aftee that.

[Encroaching Death]

I went Ogre because I like the idea of a huge fat spell caster.

FSI is just a bonus.

[greenspectre]

Really helpful.

I think I'm going barb as this is more for fun and exploring.

Any recommendation on progression gear? I plan to make my own banded and help other newbs but wasnt surr aftee that.

Willowisps into Qhill bandits will fund that Banded situation. Around 20 try to get a Testament of Vanear. Try to target specific pieces you're looking for as you level and hunt in those zones. Early WIS items to chase after include-

Iksar Berserker Club in Kurn's
Prayer Cloth of Tunare in Crushbone
Testament of Vanear quest (Highpass is the bottleneck)
Paw of Opolla (Guk/Befallen)
Bloodstained Tunic in Unrest
Bloodstone Eyepatch in Mistmoore
etc etc.

If you construct your hunting list based on loot you hope to nab since you're going self-found, you can get upgrades as you level.

[Crawdad]

Iksar or Barbarian. Troll and Ogre have terrible starting and adjacent zones. Troll at least looks nice and has regen+snare neck, Ogre looks absolutely stupid. Barbarian has a rough time getting started in Everfrost (and now totally blind), but nearby Qeynos area is one of the best starting areas for a fresh player.. probably second to Iksar's Cabilis area, which is a gold mine and gets you 1-30 quick and with plat in the bank.

So scales>bear hat>purple eye face>>>>>>>>>stupid face butt crack fatty

[Bobjenson]

Willowisps into Qhill bandits will fund that Banded situation. Around 20 try to get a Testament of Vanear. Try to target specific pieces you're looking for as you level and hunt in those zones. Early WIS items to chase after include-

Iksar Berserker Club in Kurn's
Prayer Cloth of Tunare in Crushbone
Testament of Vanear quest (Highpass is the bottleneck)
Paw of Opolla (Guk/Befallen)
Bloodstained Tunic in Unrest
Bloodstone Eyepatch in Mistmoore
etc etc.

If you construct your hunting list based on loot you hope to nab since you're going self-found, you can get upgrades as you level.


Awesome! Just what i was hoping. If anyone else has any equipment goals / lists for self found as you level please let me know.

[PatChapp]

Mammoth hide cloak very attainable in the upper 20s in a group.
Will need to drag a group there, but perma is also a good xp spot if a little harder than others.

Rare drop but 20s -30s kunark giants can drop forest loops.

[Kich867]

Mammoth hide cloak very attainable in the upper 20s in a group.
Will need to drag a group there, but perma is also a good xp spot if a little harder than others.

Rare drop but 20s -30s kunark giants can drop forest loops.

Depending on how "self-found" they're looking to be they wouldn't be able to bring a group. You kinda have to outlevel the gear you're farming pretty hard to do it safely solo.

Although as a shaman it's probably easier. When I did this on my warrior I couldn't go back to get gear from permafrost until my early 40's.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you are going to stick to the "self found" idea for the entire life of the character, Troll is the best hands down.

They have better starting stats/faction than Iksar, plus Troll Regen, and you can get snare neck if you want. They also still have access to JBB.

It will be a long time before you get a regeneration item/Torpor, so Troll Regen is going to give you the best bang for your buck.

If you are a hardcore player and are good at finding/making groups, then Ogre would be a great choice too for endgame FSI.

[Bobjenson]

Great suggestions. I'm mainly just not taking gifts and not buying gear.. but will gladly group, camp, etc. Also when soloing I'm not allowing outside buffs.

The tribunal necklace quest is halas seems like an early good magic weapon, any other thoughts on obtainable magic weapons?

Thanks again!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Great suggestions. I'm mainly just not taking gifts and not buying gear.. but will gladly group, camp, etc. Also when soloing I'm not allowing outside buffs.

The tribunal necklace quest is halas seems like an early good magic weapon, any other thoughts on obtainable magic weapons?

Thanks again!

I wouldn't worry too much about magic weapons. Since you are going the self found route, meleeing isn't going to be very good. You can just root/rot the mobs.

There are some decent weapons you can get self found, like https://wiki.project1999.com/Gatorsmash_Maul , but without a haste item it isn't going to be amazing. You don't get your first haste spell until 29, so you got some time to find a decent weapon if you want to do some meleeing levels 30-40.

Levels 1-10 you can probably melee fine with a basic weapon since the mobs are really weak in that range, but you aren't going to be fighting anything that requires a magic weapon in that level range anyway.

[Chortles Snortles]

congrats on your new dps class adventure!

[Elizondo]

Not true at all. FSI is the most overrated crap unless you're doing extremely tough solo challenges. If OP has no aspirations to be a solo god and would rather have an easier time leveling, its troll or iksar...just pick based on looks (iksar kinda wins out with better starting zone).

Yea I agree if you're picking based on looks and don't really care pick whatever race you want. Troll and Iksar would be ideal. The regen is nice, but FSI is like starting with an item that gives you a unique ability that no item or other race/class combo will ever have.

If you're trying to squeeze every last drop of power out of the shaman class you pick Ogre

[fortior]

Ogre's biggest advantage on a new self-found leveling shaman is the pile of stats, not the FSI which will not be relevant whatsoever until you are 60 or punching way above your weight. Leveling a shaman involves chewing through relatively safe piles of mobs with just enough speed to

Based on stats, go ogre. Not for frontal stun immunity, which I guarantee you will not matter whatsoever, but because of this:
https://i.imgur.com/lRG65fg.png

[MrSaker2]

I soooooo wish they hadn't taken away the upgraded character visuals, I liked the newer Ogre models, don't know if I can stomach the "classic" ones.

[Toxigen]

Ogre's biggest advantage on a new self-found leveling shaman is the pile of stats, not the FSI which will not be relevant whatsoever until you are 60 or punching way above your weight. Leveling a shaman involves chewing through relatively safe piles of mobs with just enough speed to

Based on stats, go ogre. Not for frontal stun immunity, which I guarantee you will not matter whatsoever, but because of this:
https://i.imgur.com/lRG65fg.png

yeah but if you're gonna make that argument its troll all the way

slightly less stats but regen

[Snaggles]

I wish my 60 troll was a 60 barb.
Spiritualist hammer, not shrinking for mid size zones (HK) and a quicker road to 60 would have been fun.

The snare neck is situationally nice as is the regen but I’d still trade them for a white polar bear illusion.

[Jimjam]

Don’t forget to hit kurns in your teens. Iksar berserker club.

[Chortles Snortles]

leaning on troll shm for next server launch tbqh

[Toxigen]

leaning on troll shm for next server launch tbqh

ill be your gnome war pocket cannonball

[Encroaching Death]

Troll at least looks nice

https://i.ibb.co/Xtyk1Pc/tumblr-271cb660eb2edd942c657b26bed98e85-d94ae93e-1280.jpg

[JeremyDS]

That appears to be a Luclin model crack.

[Ananka]

As a self found Barbarian you can save up 12pp for a 6 damage 29 delay spear from home city merchants, then move to a fine steel great staff or combine version on merchants or as a barbarian you could kill a low level dwarf at the docks in Qeynos to get a 13 50 Bloodforge Hammer and with Velious out I would get a 9 32 Bloodstained Fang from late 20's snow cougars in Iceclad. You can also save your pp and get blacksmithing high enough for banded armor then switch in the mid levels to Totemic armor which you can ride to the high 50's if you want to and switch up with attainable wisdom gear. The Totemic armor will need a suit of MEDIUM banded armor for the quest which is convenient. You can also pretty easily get the 5 hp earrings but not having 5 ac 55 hp rings would be annoying to me.

[fortior]

yeah but if you're gonna make that argument its troll all the way

slightly less stats but regen

agreed, but I was responding to the ogre posts. troll or ogre for me, personally. however, the regen really amps up in your 50s, so on a fresh green server you've been raiding or at least soloing camps for a while at that point. I think ogre wins out with an overcrowded server while troll might level quicker whne ahead of the curve.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ogre is better with Torpor, Troll is better without Torpor. Iksars are the worst since they can't use JBB.

If you can twink your Shaman, you should always go Ogre if you want to min/max. If the Shaman is your first character, or you don't have a lot of money, Troll is still a great choice, since the regen will significantly help you get to 60, so you can farm plat for other characters. No racial bonus is make or break for Shamans.

The reason why Ogres are the best with Torpor is because you can't get Frontal Stun Immunity with an item, and Troll regen doesn't do much when you have Torpor.

[ArbiterBlixen]

If you go ogre and intend to go full bis put your starting points in agility or dex.

[Ghost of Starman]

Barb is min/max fashion, the only thing that matters. Shammy is so OP none of the racials make much of a difference.

[Toxigen]

Barb is min/max fashion, the only thing that matters.

truth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Honestly I think Barbarians are the ugliest of the Shaman races. Their run cycle and proportions are awful. It's like a strange parody of a human. At least Ogres/Trolls/Iksars aren't trying to be humans. But to each their own.

[Encroaching Death]

Sowed Ogres run like they have shit falling out of their ass and they're trying to avoid it getting on their legs.

Trolls have that full diaper swag going on. They own it like "Yeah, I just shit myself and I'm cool for doing it."

[Ghost of Starman]

Honestly I think Barbarians are the ugliest of the Shaman races. Their run cycle and proportions are awful. It's like a strange parody of a human. At least Ogres/Trolls/Iksars aren't trying to be humans. But to each their own.

Human is the master race, Barb is the next best thing since they're human's northern cousins (basically Canadians).

Sorry.

[Toxigen]

Human is the master race, Barb is the next best thing since they're human's northern cousins (basically Canadians).

Sorry.

and polar bear

[Bardp1999]

Barbarian master race

[Maschenny]

Agree woth DSM on the barb proportions. Those narrow shoulders look bad. That being said their armor does look better.

[Crede]

i gotta go with iksar for min max shaman fashion. Can wear robes and the pog armor looks great too. They are the borderline min max race too(FSI and jbb both hugely overrated too)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i gotta go with iksar for min max shaman fashion. Can wear robes and the pog armor looks great too. They are the borderline min max race too(FSI and jbb both hugely overrated too)

JBB is not overrated at all. It is the best leveling tool you can get if you don't have Epic. Saving spell slots is also very nice on a Shaman after leveling. Shamans have quite a few mandatory spells on bar. You almost always have Canni 4, Torpor, Turgurs, and Malo, so you only have 4 slots to play with most of the time. JBB gives you one of your better DD spells for free off bar.

I still use my JBB quite a bit at level 60.

[ya.dingus]

There are items in the game that give regen

There are no items in the game that give FSI

Ogre is the only choice

Yeah FSI is a meme.

Once slowed something bashes once every 52 seconds. FSI is only good when you can back into a corner and not get push interrupted, but bad news, bash may not stun but it can interrupt regardless so, all in all, it's just overrated.

Now a free torpor once every 10 minutes, (with other effects like regrwoth and tunic it's a free torpor of hp every 3 minutes), that hands down is one of the best health/mana economies this game has in it.

It's really not even close.

The only real question is Troll Vs Iksar. Iksar has some pretty nice race stuff while troll gets bracer.

Honestly though at higher levels of soloing you don't use bracer as much and can pump out more damage using health to mana converstion which might give iksar the edge when its AC bonus (which is best AC bonus because it's dodge avoidance, not armor AC and so doesnt count towards the cap). Troll also has a higher stat bonus starting off.

The only reason to go Ogre is that you want a boatload of stats up front.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah FSI is a meme.

Once slowed something bashes once every 52 seconds. FSI is only good when you can back into a corner and not get push interrupted, but bad news, bash may not stun but it can interrupt regardless so, all in all, it's just overrated.

Now a free torpor once every 10 minutes, (with other effects like regrwoth and tunic it's a free torpor of hp every 3 minutes), that hands down is one of the best health/mana economies this game has in it.

It's really not even close.

The only real question is Troll Vs Iksar. Iksar has some pretty nice race stuff while troll gets bracer.

Honestly though at higher levels of soloing you don't use bracer as much and can pump out more damage using health to mana converstion which might give iksar the edge when its AC bonus (which is best AC bonus because it's dodge avoidance, not armor AC and so doesnt count towards the cap). Troll also has a higher stat bonus starting off.

The only reason to go Ogre is that you want a boatload of stats up front.

Ogre FSI is quite useful at level 60. The most dangerous part of a fight is the pre-slow phase (first minute or two). FSI can be the difference between a slow going off and you needing to gate.

Troll/Iksar regen is basically worthless over a fight where the mob is slowed and you have Torpor. There is a reason why you don't see Torpor Shaman's wearing a Fungi, which is better than Troll/Iksar Regen.

A standing Troll/Iksar gets 1 free Torpor every 15 minutes, assuming they aren't at full health. The problem is any Torpor Shaman is going to be at full health out of combat, due to Torpor hehe.

EDIT: If you ignore the stun component, then the spell may go through. This is because bash only has a chance to interrupt your spell. The only guaranteed spell interruption on the bash component is the stun. Having a decent percent chance to not get a slow interrupted in the first 30 seconds is much more useful than Troll/Iksar regen, which would only give you 80 HP in the first minute of the fight. That won't save you.

[ya.dingus]

Ogre FSI is quite useful at level 60. The most dangerous part of a fight is the pre-slow phase (first minute or two). FSI can be the difference between a slow going off and you needing to gate.

Troll/Iksar regen is basically worthless over a fight where the mob is slowed and you have Torpor. There is a reason why you don't see Torpor Shaman's wearing a Fungi, which is better than Troll/Iksar Regen.

A standing Troll/Iksar gets 1 free Torpor every 15 minutes, assuming they aren't at full health. The problem is any Torpor Shaman is going to be at full health out of combat, due to Torpor hehe.

EDIT: You are also incorrect about bash automatically interrupting spells. The stun interrupts the spell, not the bash.

1. Point one is often too situational to be relied on. All hard solo mobs have been done by every race. If this was a huge factor, we'd see differences in success rate among races. We don't, so we know it's not a huge issue.

2. Mana fuels torpor, health fuels mana. Regen in long fights not only makes your extended dps go up more, it also opens you up to kill things faster. Active shaman can benefit more from using canni/torpor rotations because their active regen contributes massively the longer a fight goes on. The regen is useless once you get torpor argument is a false claim.

3. Bash does have a chance to interrupt the spell. Not only am I right, I challenge you to go test it.

FSI is nothing more than a meme who needs narrow situational crutches to put it on par with Regen or Regen + AC


Nevermind grouping as having a tank will make FSI completely and utterly useless.


It's a no brainer, Min/Max is Regen through and through.

We're also not even including higher level mobs which have a higher chance to kick versus bash as well. Yeah, the more things you consider, the more you realize that beyond the surface level, Ogres are really only good for one thing - stats, a lot of front loaded stats.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1. Point one is often too situational to be relied on. All hard solo mobs have been done by every race. If this was a huge factor, we'd see differences in success rate among races. We don't, so we know it's not a huge issue.

2. Mana fuels torpor, health fuels mana. Regen in long fights not only makes your extended dps go up more, it also opens you up to kill things faster. Active shaman can benefit more from using canni/torpor rotations because their active regen contributes massively the longer a fight goes on. The regen is useless once you get torpor argument is a false claim.

3. Bash does have a chance to interrupt the spell. Not only am I right, I challenge you to go test it.

FSI is nothing more than a meme who needs narrow situational crutches to put it on par with Regen or Regen + AC

1. I never said FSI is required:) I said it's better than Regen at level 60 with Torpor.

2.Regen over a long fight is irrelevant on kill speed for a Torpor Shaman. If you are doing 15 minute fights, you are saving 180 mana, or 30 seconds, on one Torpor. Most of the time you are not chain fighting mobs with a Torpor Shaman, you are fighting hard mobs that don't spawn often. It won't increase most player's kill speeds by any significant margin, unless you play like 12 hours a day.

3. I said it wrong, I apologize. If you see, I edited my post to correct it. Bash has a chance to interrupt, but stun is a guaranteed interrupt. Removing the guaranteed interrupt gives you a great chance to get the spell through.

The point is simply that FSI is better than Troll/Iksar Regen once you have Torpor. No racial is required to play a Shaman. Again, you can see people know this is the case, because you don't see a lot of Torpor Shamans using Fungi Tunics, even though that has 2x the regen of a Troll/Iksar.

[ya.dingus]

1. I never said FSI is required:) I said it's better than Regen at level 60 with Torpor.

2.Regen over a long fight is irrelevant on kill speed for a Torpor Shaman. If you are doing 15 minute fights, you are saving 180 mana, or 30 seconds, on one Torpor. Most of the time you are not chain fighting mobs with a Torpor Shaman, you are fighting hard mobs that don't spawn often. It won't increase most player's kill speeds by any significant margin, unless you play like 12 hours a day.

3. I said it wrong, I apologize. If you see, I edited my post to correct it. Bash has a chance to interrupt, but stun is a guaranteed interrupt. Removing the guaranteed interrupt gives you a great chance to get the spell through.

The point is simply that FSI is better than Troll/Iksar Regen once you have Torpor. No racial is required to play a Shaman. Again, you can see people know this is the case, because you don't see a lot of Torpor Shamans using Fungi Tunics, even though that has 2x the regen of a Troll/Iksar.

I still stand by all my points. FSI is too situational to be useful and you can not compare to the raw math behind regen.

If regen wasn't important, people wouldnt go out of their way to stack it. It's simply proven to help your economy out long term in every situation.

From downtime, to soloing, to negating a portion of dot damage, etc.

It makes your character more efficient no matter the situation.

If you want to talk about raw value, consider this:

Making a Troll or Iksar shaman off the bat is a free 30-90k bonus you just made coming out from character creation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I still stand by all my points. FSI is too situational to be useful and you can not compare to the raw math behind regen.

If regen wasn't important, people wouldnt go out of their way to stack it. It's simply proven to help your economy out long term in every situation.

From downtime, to soloing, to negating a portion of dot damage, etc.

It makes your character more efficient no matter the situation.

If you want to talk about raw value, consider this:

Making a Troll or Iksar shaman off the bat is a free 30-90k bonus you just made coming out from character creation.

I didn't say regen wasn't important. Troll/Iksar regen is better than FSI until you get Torpor. Regen simply has different importance to different classes. Once you have Torpor, stacking regen is largely useless. I don't bother casting regrowth on myself most of the time with my Torpor Shaman. I kill the same number of things per hour with and without it. You just need to play a Torpor Shaman to understand this, and look at what Torpor Shamans wear on their chest. It usually isn't a Fungi Tunic.

You can easily math it out if you don't want to level up a Shaman, but for some reason people don't like doing that.

When choosing between Ogre or Troll/Iksar, you are basically thinking about faster leveling vs. better endgame. Ogre is the better endgame character with Torpor. Troll/Iksar is the better leveler and race that never gets to level 60.

[ya.dingus]

I didn't say regen wasn't important. Troll/Iksar regen is better than FSI until you get Torpor. Regen simply has different importance to different classes. Once you have Torpor, stacking regen is largely useless. I don't bother casting regrowth on myself most of the time with my Torpor Shaman. I kill the same number of things per hour with and without it. You just need to play a Torpor Shaman to understand this, and look at what Torpor Shamans wear on their chest. It usually isn't a Fungi Tunic.

Just can't disagree more. I used both my regen tunic have played both a barb and a troll. It's night and day at end level the difference you get with and without regen, even with torpor.

If you're trying to min max or setup for hard fights, you're going in with every edge you can get, and 12 hp standing + 15 from tunic + another 15 from regrowth is a raw 420 hp extra per minute.

People are min maxing their characters for 20 stamina investments to get piddly higher HP pools, and here we are with troll or iksar, literally getting 420 extra raw hp per minute as long as we're not at max health.

Like I said, you can't beat the value.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just can't disagree more. I used both my regen tunic have played both a barb and a troll. It's night and day at end level the difference you get with and without regen, even with torpor.

If you're trying to min max or setup for hard fights, you're going in with every edge you can get, and 12 hp standing + 15 from tunic + another 15 from regrowth is a raw 420 hp extra per minute.

People are min maxing their characters for 20 stamina investments to get piddly higher HP pools, and here we are with troll or iksar, literally getting 420 extra raw hp per minute as long as we're not at max health.

Like I said, you can't beat the value.

You are contradicting yourself now:) If racials aren't required to play a Shaman, then the Barbarian didn't need the +8 regen to win the fight. My Ogre Doesn't have a Fungi Tunic, Regrowth, or Troll Regen (+38 regen), and it doesn't affect my kill speeds or down time.

FSI is going to help more than +8 regen when +38 regen doesn't make a difference. I have done enough fights with both regen and without it to know it isn't making a significant difference. Vindi BP is better due to the higher resists/ac, which will help you more in tight situations than the slow HP tick.

This is with Torpor.

[ya.dingus]

You are contradicting yourself now:) If racials aren't required to play a Shaman, then the Barbarian didn't need the +8 regen to win the fight. My Ogre Doesn't have a Fungi Tunic, Regrowth, or Troll Regen (+38 regen), and it doesn't affect my kill speeds or down time.

FSI is going to help more than +8 regen when +38 regen doesn't make a difference. I have done enough fights with both regen and without it to know it isn't making a significant difference. Vindi BP is better due to the higher resists/ac, which will help you more in tight situations than the slow HP tick.

1. Not contradicting myself. I said if I'm going into a hard fight, I'm taking every edge I can get. I didn't say it was necessary, I said it was something I was going to benefit from.

You just committed a strawman fallacy.

2. Just doesn't help. Honestly, there's probably 10 times I can count on my fingers where I regreted not having FSI whereas when I didnt have the extra regen my playtime was miserable.


Not to mention downtime in this game is extensive.

If you want another metric, measure all the downtime you've spent because you had FSI and not regen and realize you're paying the game with seconds of your life, not doing something you enjoy, but having to wait to do it.

It's a dead horse at this point and why most green people roll trolls/iksars even despite having access to prenerf fungi staves and whatnot.

It's just superior to be a troll.

P.S. maybe consider that regen isn't affecting your downtime because you're not playing your shaman optimally in the first place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1. Not contradicting myself. I said if I'm going into a hard fight, I'm taking every edge I can get. I didn't say it was necessary, I said it was something I was going to benefit from.

You just committed a strawman fallacy.

2. Just doesn't help. Honestly, there's probably 10 times I can count on my fingers where I regreted not having FSI whereas when I didnt have the extra regen my playtime was miserable.


Not to mention downtime in this game is extensive.

If you want another metric, measure all the downtime you've spent because you had FSI and not regen and realize you're paying the game with seconds of your life, not doing something you enjoy, but having to wait to do it.

It's a dead horse at this point and why most green people roll trolls/iksars even despite having access to prenerf fungi staves and whatnot.

It's just superior to be a troll.

1. No strawman there. You know racials aren't required, and FSI also gives you an edge. It's an edge you can't get via an item. I am just letting you know that you have already admitted the Troll/Iksar regen isn't a big edge, because it isn't required.

2. It does help. The hardest part of a fight is the preslow phase. In one minute, FSI will help you more than a bit of HP.

3. Torpor Shamans have minimal downtime, less than basically any other class. In a 15 minute fight Troll/Iksar regen is saving you 30 seconds, or 1 Torpor. If you are doing 15 minute fights, you aren't saving enough time per hour to get more kills in. It's just basic math. If you are the type of person who is optimizing their life in 30 second intervals, just stop playing Everquest, that will save you more time:)

You seem to be arguing about regen without Torpor. I never said regen isn't a huge benefit when you don't have Torpor. We are talking about Torpor Shamans, FSI vs. Troll/Iksar Regen.

[Toxigen]

1. Not contradicting myself. I said if I'm going into a hard fight, I'm taking every edge I can get. I didn't say it was necessary, I said it was something I was going to benefit from.
.

If you're "going into a hard fight" the only thing that will actually matter is FSI. Troll/Iksar regen just helps when leveling (pre torpor).

Sorry you don't got BiS ogre.

Hope this helps.

[Snaggles]

Imagine thinking racial perks and stats matter when you can slow something 75%, heal yourself forever and make mana with the extra healing.

Racial perks are a beneficial stretch for an end game SK let alone a shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Imagine thinking racial perks and stats matter when you can slow something 75%, heal yourself forever and make mana with the extra healing.

Racial perks are a beneficial stretch for an end game SK let alone a shaman.

The key is you need to be able to land the first 75% slow:) FSI helps with that. Is it necessary? Of course not. But it does help, and having FSI is better than not having it.

The discussion is about which racial is best as a Torpor Shaman, not is the racial critical for the success of a Torpor Shaman.

If you don't care about min/maxing, that's fine. But other people do, and there is no reason to discourage discussion. It's the same thing with fashion, there is no need to discourage fashion discussions for people who prefer that over min/maxing.

[Crede]

The key is you need to be able to land the first 75% slow:) FSI helps with that. Is it necessary? Of course not. But it does help, and having FSI is better than not having it.

The discussion is about which racial is best as a Torpor Shaman, not is the racial critical for the success of a Torpor Shaman.

If you don't care about min/maxing, that's fine. But other people do, and there is no reason to discourage discussion. It's the same thing with fashion, there is no need to discourage fashion discussions for people who prefer that over min/maxing.

There's no data to support the survival rate of getting a slow off with FSI vs failing to get it off without FSI. So it's really just all speculation & personal preference, hence the endless shaman racial debate. Shaman's are wiping the majority of the time because the mob resisted slow, not due to being stunned. And at the point, one could argue the 80 extra hp in regen could be more useful then FSI in getting a slow off when you are spamming it to potentially survive another round to land it :)

Regen is something always working for you. FSI is for theoretically increasing your survival rate when attempting to slow a mob, which again we have no idea if this actually holds true compared to the survival rate of perhaps an extra 80-160hp from regen. People go to extreme lengths to obtain HP items like the spirit wracked cord so you really cannot discount the value of having 80-160hp in an emergency situation.

I think people forget how much more powerful FSI used to be before they fixed bash mechanics here, so they still hold onto that old mentality. At this point shaman racials are just weighing different conveniences against each other, nothing about determining real min/max power though.

[Toxigen]

Its simple.

Ogre for soloing big tough mobs.

Troll for newer players that want regen + jbb.

Iksar for ultimate (robe) fashion.

Barb for polar bear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's no data to support the survival rate of getting a slow off with FSI vs failing to get it off without FSI. So it's really just all speculation & personal preference, hence the endless shaman racial debate. Shaman's are wiping the majority of the time because the mob resisted slow, not due to being stunned. And at the point, one could argue the 80 extra hp in regen could be more useful then FSI in getting a slow off when you are spamming it to potentially survive another round to land it :)

Regen is something always working for you. FSI is for theoretically increasing your survival rate when attempting to slow a mob, which again we have no idea if this actually holds true compared to the survival rate of perhaps an extra 80-160hp from regen. People go to extreme lengths to obtain HP items like the spirit wracked cord so you really cannot discount the value of having 80-160hp in an emergency situation.

I think people forget how much more powerful FSI used to be before they fixed bash mechanics here, so they still hold onto that old mentality. At this point shaman racials are just weighing different conveniences against each other, nothing about determining real min/max power though.

I don't hold on to the old bash mechanics mentality, I just play Ogres and non-Ogres, so I can see the difference.

You can math out exactly how much HP you get from Regen, and it isn't enough to save you 99.9% of the time when dealing with mobs that can hit you for 200+ damage. If you have 160 HP or 80 HP, the 200 damage will still kill you.

I've played my Ogre (and non-Ogres) enough to be confident FSI is reducing spell interrupts. Is there any way to prove it 100%? Not without server code. But it's helping you more than the Regen during the pre-slow phase. Even if we can prove FSI isn't preventing a spell interrupt, being able to move after a stun is 1 second where you can start casting another spell, run away, etc. That is still more useful than 80 HP in the Pre-slow phase.

Again, there is a reason Torpor Shamans don't wear Fungi Tunics. The regen just isn't valuable when you already are regenerating at 300 HP/Tick. There is no fight I know of where 308HP/Tick will be enough to soak the damage. A fight where slow + Torpor isn't soaking the damage is generally doing much more damage than 300 HP per 6 seconds.

FSI is indeed the better min/max option, because it offers you something an item doesn't, and it is more useful in the pre-slow phase. That is the phase that matters the most. Once the mob is Slowed, you can finish the fight no problem.

[Snaggles]

In Chardok for some reason my graphics card sometimes freezes when I slow and malo quickly. Old computer, older zone. I don’t know why. 200 people in ToV not an issue but I’m cursed farming crappy spawns in Dok.

So I torp and stand with my face away from the npc. Still doesn’t matter. My slow is probably interrupted a quarter of the time and if so I just cast again. I’ve had slow resist multiple times before even with malo. If you aren’t able to survive a few combat rounds it’s probably not worth killing.

FSI is the biggest misnomer anyways. You aren’t immunity to stun, you are immune to bashes. Even if you could back into a wall this would make you only better in 1/3rd of the rare interrupt scenarios. I could make up a reason why it really matters, justify my pick in race, I just can’t remember a time when a bash kept a torp or slow from landing and I died.

I CAN remember a lot of times a non-snared alchemist walked off and trained me dead though. Is the snare neck a game changer? No, paying attention, stacking poison dots and having immobilize up would have fixed that.

It’s an easy class. Don’t overthink it. The main difference between what people kill and what they don’t kill is having the tools and the gag reflex to canni for half an hour. There is skill but let’s not conflate things…it’s not a tough class to play. It’s ok to like simple classes, I enjoy my paladin and mage too.

PS: a fungi is still like ft7. It’s free mana. It’s not the “best” choice but it’s not a bad one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In Chardok for some reason my graphics card sometimes freezes when I slow and malo quickly. Old computer, older zone. I don’t know why. 200 people in ToV not an issue but I’m cursed farming crappy spawns in Dok.

So I torp and stand with my face away from the npc. Still doesn’t matter. My slow is probably interrupted a quarter of the time and if so I just cast again. I’ve had slow resist multiple times before even with malo. If you aren’t able to survive a few combat rounds it’s probably not worth killing.

FSI is the biggest misnomer anyways. You aren’t immunity to stun, you are immune to bashes. Even if you could back into a wall this would make you only better in 1/3rd of the rare interrupt scenarios. I could make up a reason why it really matters, justify my pick in race, I just can’t remember a time when a bash kept a torp or slow from landing and I died.

I CAN remember a lot of times a non-snared alchemist walked off and trained me dead though. Is the snare neck a game changer? No, paying attention, stacking poison dots and having immobilize up would have fixed that.

It’s an easy class. Don’t overthink it. The main difference between what people kill and what they don’t kill is having the tools and the gag reflex to canni for half an hour. There is skill but let’s not conflate things…it’s not a tough class to play. It’s ok to like simple classes, I enjoy my paladin and mage too.

I agree, there is no reason to overthink it. The people who have these magical ideas of what Regeneration can do for you are doing just that:)

FSI is better than Regen when you have Torpor. "Better" doesn't mean game changing, it just means better.

Regen is better before you get Torpor. The choice between Ogre and Troll/Iksar is when you want your racials to benefit you. If you want to min/max, the assumption is you will hit level 60. So FSI is better for min/maxing. If you just want to have an easier time leveling, pick Troll for Regen + JBB + snare neck.

[Danth]

FSI is better than Regen when you have Torpor. "Better" doesn't mean game changing, it just means better.

I know I said it in one of the past threads, I'll say it again: This is the important bit. "Better" in this case means something on the order of a couple per cent advantage versus a barbarian. It's enough to "win by a nose" as they say in racing, without being enough of an advantage to matter all that much in actual practice. I kind of waffle between ogre or troll as "best" shaman race. Ask Monday I might say troll, ask Tuesday I might say ogre. In practice they're probably tied overall just with slightly different periods where they're at their very best. No shaman race choice can actually go wrong because the class's baseline is so good regardless.

I asked the wife and she feels barbarian is best due to faction convenience and polar bear hat. Those reasons are as good as any given you'll all be able to do the same stuff anyway.

Danth

[Toxigen]

i mean lets face the music...its iksar because PD robe exists

[Snaggles]

Nitpicking shaman traits is some rarified air. It’s complaining about ride quality with your Bentley compared to your Rolls. Must be nice to have such a sensitive backside.

I think threads like these do more damage than good. More intimidation for new players. The more classes I play the less I like any particular one or believe it to be “the best”. It’s just another char to park for raids or to help folks with.

The best thing you can do is level to 60. At 60 the best thing you can do is figure out how to play and get rid of the bad habits. Oh and get of those charok slow sticks for stuff that really matters. Your stupid clicky spear won’t give you a yolo swing to slow something 70%.

[Danth]

I think threads like these do more damage than good. More intimidation for new players.

If nothing else we can help dispell the notion that the ogre racial makes a player totally immune to all spell interrupts. I've ran into numerous people in-game over the years who actually thought that. The limiting factors for most players in this game amounts to patience, motivation, and skill. The wife and I have done stuff on our thurgadin-equivalent characters that a lot or most people in temple veeshan-level stuff never do, not because they can't, but because they don't care or don't know. Likewise Shamwowi solo'd a burrower on his shaman awhile back when I have not, because I don't feel like fussing with that level of tedium.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nitpicking shaman traits is some rarified air. It’s complaining about ride quality with your Bentley compared to your Rolls. Must be nice to have such a sensitive backside.

I think threads like these do more damage than good. More intimidation for new players. The more classes I play the less I like any particular one or believe it to be “the best”. It’s just another char to park for raids or to help folks with.

The best thing you can do is level to 60. At 60 the best thing you can do is figure out how to play and get rid of the bad habits. Oh and get of those charok slow sticks for stuff that really matters. Your stupid clicky spear won’t give you a yolo swing to slow something 70%.

It's not about nitpicking, it's simply about informing new players. If a player wants to min/max their Shaman, they will want to know what is best. It's really that simple. You can't change your race after creation, and characters take a long time to level.

Some people like min/maxing, some people like fashion, some people don't care. None of those options are wrong, or should be discouraged.

The problem is some people who prefer Regeneration have magical ideas about it, and they confuse new players by trying to downplay how FSI works.

Neither racial is complicated, so I am not sure why they want to do this. It's just hurting new players.

[Snaggles]

If nothing else we can help dispell the notion that the ogre racial makes a player totally immune to all spell interrupts. I've ran into numerous people in-game over the years who actually thought that.

Ok fair point :) .

I like to remind ogre warriors in the middle of their neckbeard grooming if they went gnome they would have 40% spell haste on tap 24/7.

[Danth]

The problem is some people who prefer Regeneration have magical ideas about it, and they confuse new players by trying to downplay how FSI works.

The ogre racial is the worst one in the game for people getting "magical" ideas about its effectiveness. I recall, for example, one ogre shadow knight who marveled at my human. How could my character possibly cast spells during combat? It's not frontal immune! Dude actually thought it was impossible for a non-ogre to cast while in melee. He was more extreme than most, but overall that racial gets blown so far out of proportion all we can do is laugh. I liked your efforts awhile back to try to put some hard numbers on its actual effect.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The ogre racial is the worst one in the game for people getting "magical" ideas about its effectiveness. I recall, for example, one ogre shadow knight who marveled at my human. How could my character possibly cast spells during combat? It's not frontal immune! Dude actually thought it was impossible for a non-ogre to cast while in melee. He was more extreme than most, but overall that racial gets blown so far out of proportion all we can do is laugh. I liked your efforts awhile back to try to put some hard numbers on its actual effect.

Danth

Specifically on these forums at least, I disagree. People think Regeneration does things it shouldn't, which doesn't make sense considering it is simply an addition or multiplication problem. Trolls get 4800 HP per hour standing at level 60, assuming they never hit max HP. That's it. This means people either have weird ideas, or are trying to defend their race choice for some reason.

Conversely, I don't think I have had someone vehemently stick to some silly opinion about how FSI works. People generally just ask about it, and thank you for the explanation. I agree FSI is a bit more complicated to understand, but I don't see nearly as many people claim it to do strange things and then stick to those ideas vehemently. I do see this with Regeneration.

[Encroaching Death]

Back in '99 one of my buddies tried to convince me that FSI existed in real life too.

So he decided to chub up to prove it. He gained a few pounds and challenged me.

"Hit me. Now that I got some fat built up, hit me."

So I punched him in the face.

[Danth]

That type of debate tended to come up more often in the tank discussion than the shaman threads. I don';t recollect you hanging out in those threads all that much until more recent years. Bash resistance is (mostly) universally recognized as a useful trait for a high-end soloist shaman.

Knock against the ogre perk is it's heavily limited towards the soloist and all-or-nothing in nature. Only works if you're getting hit. Look at the wife: Last time we went to West Wastes this past week, we killed, I dunno, maybe a dozen or so nest dragons including a plus-6. She never got bashed even once--the ogre racial would've been utterly worthless even if she had it. P99's community mostly veers towards either solo or raiding; only a minority of people have a permanent long-term duo like we have. Hence we're something of an exception to the norm. For most folks I'd call the ogre trait the best for an established 60 shaman, just like everyone else.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That type of debate tended to come up more often in the tank discussion than the shaman threads. I don';t recollect you hanging out in those threads all that much until more recent years. Bash resistance is (mostly) universally recognized as a useful trait for a high-end soloist shaman.

Knock against the ogre perk is it's heavily limited towards the soloist and all-or-nothing in nature. Only works if you're getting hit. Look at the wife: Last time we went to West Wastes this past week, we killed, I dunno, maybe a dozen or so nest dragons including a plus-6. She never got bashed even once--the ogre racial would've been utterly worthless even if she had it. P99's community mostly veers towards either solo or raiding; only a minority of people have a permanent long-term duo like we have. Hence we're something of an exception to the norm. For most folks I'd call the ogre trait the best for an established 60 shaman, just like everyone else.

Danth

That may be it. I don't view/participate in tanking threads as often.

I agree FSI is limited to when you are getting hit. In general I believe racials only matter when you are soloing, and most people make Shamans with soloing as part of the equation.

Once you get into duo/group/raid situations, racials don't really matter anymore, unless you are doing the duo challenges perhaps. Just having more people playing with you is saving you a lot more HP/Mana/Time than any racial could.

[Toxigen]

That may be it. I don't view/participate in tanking threads as often.

I agree FSI is limited to when you are getting hit. In general I believe racials only matter when you are soloing, and most people make Shamans with soloing as part of the equation.

Once you get into duo/group/raid situations, racials don't really matter anymore, unless you are doing the duo challenges perhaps. Just having more people playing with you is saving you a lot more HP/Mana/Time than any racial could.

The average casual player will benefit most from troll. Regen is nice when you don't have a fungi and you're grouping for all of your XP.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The average casual player will benefit most from troll. Regen is nice when you don't have a fungi and you're grouping for all of your XP.

I do agree. Most casual players will probably not reach level 60. That is why I always say Ogre is min/max. Min/max typically assumes you are planning on reaching level 60, because you are planning for the long term.

For any player with serious doubts they will reach 60 and get Torpor, just play a Troll. You will have a blast leveling with Troll Regen + JBB + Snare Neck.

[Jimjam]

Its simple.

Ogre for soloing big tough mobs.

Troll for newer players that want regen + jbb.

Iksar for ultimate (robe) fashion.

Barb for polar bear.

Polar bear AND miniskirt.

Lots of bears in a dress!

[Encroaching Death]

I actually think Ogres look cool, besides plate helmets.

Their plate helmets are trash.

All Ogre helmets are trash, actually.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I actually think Ogres look cool, besides plate helmets.

Their plate helmets are trash.

All Ogre helmets are trash, actually.

Same, I sincerely like the look of Trolls and Ogres. Trolls look better though, in my opinion. For some reason their animations are much higher quality than any other race lol, and a lot of their armor looks cool.

I like the Velious custom hats for male Ogres, but overall I agree, I don't like Ogre hats that much.

[Trainhop]

Journeyman's walking stick is really good for shamans, frees up a spot in the group now that you can kick that dramaqueen ench.

[jolanar]

Same, I sincerely like the look of Trolls and Ogres. Trolls look better though, in my opinion. For some reason their animations are much higher quality than any other race lol, and a lot of their armor looks cool.

I like the Velious custom hats for male Ogres, but overall I agree, I don't like Ogre hats that much.

It's really about who looks better from over the shoulder.

IMO Ogres look awesome from the front but pretty bad from behind.

[Merang]

SSFing a Shaman up to 34?

Just skip to the chase and go for CBT

[Gustoo]

I wish my 60 troll was a 60 barb.
Spiritualist hammer, not shrinking for mid size zones (HK) and a quicker road to 60 would have been fun.

The snare neck is situationally nice as is the regen but I’d still trade them for a white polar bear illusion.

Are there high level zones that you HAVe to shrink in?

Like even Lguk is troll sized, and most other big boy zones fit fatties.

But I’ve barely played fatties, so where do you feel you need to shrink and if you were a barb you wouldn’t have to?