Hate recalc

[Cezar]

Greetings, I’m ok with recalculating hate but how a SK is supposed to keep aggro now?
I remember classic eq, SKs were using disease cloud! Now seem to have no effect just like all other spells, considering our taunt worth nothing I’m wondering what sks are good to now? Always good for snap aggro, now?

I think it’s a mistake what last patch introduced and I hope staff solve it soon!

For all other SKs, how you trying to ménage the lacking of threat? Any spell still effective?

[Jimjam]

You also have snare, ac and atk taps. Are none of them worth a thing?

[Ooloo]

Did these hate changes affect all warrior weapon procs (stuns\slows\debuffs) and aggro clickies? Cause wars depend on this big time. Are all tanks gonna be gimped now?

[Swish]

If SK's can't snap aggro anymore I'm probably never logging mine in again lol

[Cezar]

If SK's can't snap aggro anymore I'm probably never logging mine in again lol

Yep, don’t know why they did this unclassic modify, why this nerf! SKs will be rares, it’s useless playing one now, we just become totally useless.

Was in a group with a bard 8 lvl lower then me that was snare/slow mob. Not a chance to get aggro, so sad, we were kings of aggro…

[sajbert]

I’m surprised I’ve seen little to no discussion on these changes and what they mean.

[Uthgaard]

All spell aggro has been reduced to the point that aggro management for casters is trivial. Spell aggro was too high before, but now it's way too little.

So pets and warriors can hold aggro like ubertanks, and casters don't need to worry about pulling aggro with heals, slows, or debuffs landing too soon.

But anyone like hyrbids, relying on spellcasts to gain aggro from other melees, is heavily underperforming right now. And these should be able to snap aggro. This was classic.

Some spell values for aggro might be more in line with each other now, but they're not in sync with melee threat or taunt values. So the system is out of balance.

I think there was some confusion about hate values being added to certain spells later (these were negative hate values added to offset an unintended increase to threat caused somewhere down the line). There are dev podcasts out there that explain why these were added. But spells with disease counters and debuffs always did generate significant hate, this is well documented, and they should be yielding more than they are currently.

An SK pet 15 levels under its caster should not be able to hold aggro securely from an that SK while they are spamming spells on a mob.

The weak shm pet should not instantly pick up slowed and maloed mobs with 3 dots ticking.

This is kind of a gamebreaking balance change.

[Uthgaard]

Dev interview with the guy who designed the eq spell system, goes in depth about spell aggro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqW42BFqVjo)

osted @ Sat, Oct 20th 11:08 PM 2001 Score: Decent[3.03]
Hybrids easily outtaunt warriors if they have half a brain.

Rangers - Taunt, Flame Lick, Kick, Beg, Snare, Taunt. That mob'll be on you the whole fight.

SK - AC tap, Taunt, Beg, Disease Cloud, Disease Cloud, Taunt.

Paladin - Taunt, Stun, Beg, Root, Flash of Light, Stun, Taunt.

What can a warrior do?
Taunt, Kick, Beg... Taunt, Kick, Beg. (https://web.archive.org/web/20020108155852/http://eqdb.allakhazam.com/item.html?item=6872)

This is a very useful spell. And I'm not sure if many people know this, but this spell pisses MoBs off more then pretty much anything else you get. With disease cloud, a SK can out-taunt pretty much anyone in the game and live (sure wizards can use some huge DD spells, but will they live to tell about it?). Taunting is extremely important. It keeps the cleric alive, and if you want to see some real damage use this and taunt constantly while a rogue gets behind it and backstabs.


The other benifit is that it stops / slows regeneration, and lasts a LONG time. Very good when you think you're about to lose sight of a MOB somehow (like losing crocs in the Oasis water bug), and you don't want it to come back with 100% health later.


At higher levels this spell flies out, and 10 mana is reall insignificant =)


Submited by: Trev (High Lords of
On: 12/19/2000 7:13:44 AM (https://search.eqarchives.org/search/?view=preview&q=id%3A%22file%3A%2F%2F%2Fhome%2Fdsanftenberg%2Feq-archives%2Fwebsites%2Fwww.everlore.com%2F200211040 71929%2Fmagic%2FMagic.asp%3FID%3D85%26mode%3Ddetai ls%26spname%3DDisease%20Cloud%26type%3D%22)


Heart Flutter This is a triple threat spell. It not only weakens your opponent and lowers their armor class but it also does damage over time. (https://web.archive.org/web/20020830191834/http://members.door.net/enigma/eq/eqshadowknightspells.htm)


Taunt mobs off casters : Use your flame lick spell, fast cast, MAJOR taunt, low mana cost... And reduces AC too, just my 2 p. I know that that is a low lvl spell, but believe me, i can agro kit any mob, even if there are 2 wizzies in group if i cast flame lick continuously. Snare is good too, but costs much and is slower, so in case of emergency, use flame lick, and never hesitate to root a mob who hates your caster and take a few secs to build hate : snare , flame lick X2, an arrow between each spell recovery, and a nuke to break the root, and if the mob is really more intelligent than his friends ( sometimes happens :) ), then use taunt and cast again til h

Sinixtrax Pinewalker, 44 ranger on Vazaelle,
member of DROIT DIVIN

Posted @ Thu, Aug 30th 3:26 PM 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20040120235301/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=10&mid=99919957639327)

Date: Tue Aug 14 10:39:50 2001
Author: Stormfang
Subject: Re: Paladins

Creating aggro for me? NO problem: Snare. The beasties hate it. Flame Lick. They hate that just as bad. For some reason Flame Lick creates more hate than just about any other dot until you get into the Taunt. Lots of it. All the time. Journeyman's Walking Stick. Procs Tashani, which creates a HUGE amount of aggro. Really pisses em off. (https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/mailing-lists/theeverquesttavern/html/1798.html#L11)


Flame Lick. AKA: Instant Aggro. I hunted Slavers in Crushbone with a full group and
dropped this on one of the buggers. No amount of taunting from the warriors, pets beating on the thing, or cleric heals got the slaver off of me. My ranger has this too and for pulling it is awesome. Also try this: root the mob, drop Flame Lick and kite. By the time root breaks you have a very mad but
1/2 health target to melee. Submited by: Gabiael of Vallon ak On: 9/13/2000 9:52:30 AM (https://search.eqarchives.org/search/?view=preview&q=id%3A%22file%3A%2F%2F%2Fhome%2Fdsanftenberg%2Feq-archives%2Fwebsites%2Fwww.everlore.com%2F200204020 53243%2Fmagic%2FMagic.asp%3FID%3D117%26mode%3Ddeta ils%26spname%3DFlame%20Lick%26type%3D%22)

I really could keep going for days but at this point I don't think it's necessary

[Ooloo]

And to think I dropped 20k on a wavecrasher like two weeks ago lol... only reason it costs so much is cause the slow proc is supposed to be big aggro for a war

[long.liam]

All spell aggro has been reduced to the point that aggro management for casters is trivial. Spell aggro was too high before, but now it's way too little.

So pets and warriors can hold aggro like ubertanks, and casters don't need to worry about pulling aggro with heals, slows, or debuffs landing too soon.

But anyone like hyrbids, relying on spellcasts to gain aggro from other melees, is heavily underperforming right now. And these should be able to snap aggro. This was classic.

Some spell values for aggro might be more in line with each other now, but they're not in sync with melee threat or taunt values. So the system is out of balance.

I think there was some confusion about hate values being added to certain spells later (these were negative hate values added to offset an unintended increase to threat caused somewhere down the line). There are dev podcasts out there that explain why these were added. But spells with disease counters and debuffs always did generate significant hate, this is well documented, and they should be yielding more than they are currently.

An SK pet 15 levels under its caster should not be able to hold aggro securely from an that SK while they are spamming spells on a mob.

The weak shm pet should not instantly pick up slowed and maloed mobs with 3 dots ticking.

This is kind of a gamebreaking balance change.

I tested it with brother on the blue server. All Disease and poison counter hate has been removed. Only the damage from Dots produces any hate. The SPAs (SPell Affects) like Blind, Stun, Snare, slow etc.. All produced hate based off of Mob HP. It's the mobs/15 up to a Cap of 1200 for spells and 400 for proc/clickie. We tested this and found this to be true. My brother's 60 druid struggled to hold aggro on mistmoore mobs with Flamelick & Snare while powerleveling my level 25 paladin. However, on the 2 guards in Paineel, Guard Heridion and Guard Menbuknar, His snare or flamelick or any SPA produced 1200 hate per cast.

[Samoht]

aggro management for casters is trivial. Spell aggro was too high before, but now it's way too little.

So pets and warriors can hold aggro like ubertanks, and casters don't need to worry about pulling aggro with heals, slows, or debuffs landing too soon.

Lol, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Warrior aggro is basically negligible. Enchanters and shamans (and druids when they're doing real work) are getting murdered after 2 slow attempts. It's miserable for them and the tanks.

Slow aggro on a proccing weapon seems to be almost nil. Slow aggro from a shm/enc is wayyyy higher than anything a warrior can do, even after waiting until the mob is like 80%

READ THIS PLEASE. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412568)

[Octavian]

Lol, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Warrior aggro is basically negligible. Enchanters and shamans (and druids when they're doing real work) are getting murdered after 2 slow attempts. It's miserable for them and the tanks.

Slow aggro on a proccing weapon seems to be almost nil. Slow aggro from a shm/enc is wayyyy higher than anything a warrior can do, even after waiting until the mob is like 80%

READ THIS PLEASE. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412568)

Everything about this situation (and I'll add the disease cloud/shadow vortex break as well) feels desperately in need of being reverted to how it was pre-patch. Yet, is there talk of this happening? Do they realize how completely broken aggro is now? And how utterly useless SK's have become?

If the logic is "do what the live devs did," then take a look at the whole timeline of EQ, where SK's received several lines of different aggro spells to make them the absolute, undisputed kings of snap aggro, as they were always meant to be.

I was on my 60 SK last night trying to help a group of lowbies by tanking for them bc they didn't have one. The humiliation when I couldn't keep aggro off a bunch of lvl 25-30's spamming disease cloud/shadow vortex.

So what... SK's are supposed to rely on their taunt now? Right...

[Malk]

SK's are supposed to rely on their taunt now? Right...

Warriors be like

https://i.imgur.com/PcVobyf.png

[Infectious]

Everything about this situation (and I'll add the disease cloud/shadow vortex break as well) feels desperately in need of being reverted to how it was pre-patch. Yet, is there talk of this happening? Do they realize how completely broken aggro is now? And how utterly useless SK's have become?

If the logic is "do what the live devs did," then take a look at the whole timeline of EQ, where SK's received several lines of different aggro spells to make them the absolute, undisputed kings of snap aggro, as they were always meant to be.

I was on my 60 SK last night trying to help a group of lowbies by tanking for them bc they didn't have one. The humiliation when I couldn't keep aggro off a bunch of lvl 25-30's spamming disease cloud/shadow vortex.

So what... SK's are supposed to rely on their taunt now? Right...

This is a free server, ran by humans that spend their hard time offering a free game. Why don't you calm down buddy and if you don't like it, leave! I personally love the changes and have been keeping aggro no problem. This isn't wow where you have a " pull aggro" button. Learn to communicate with your group members.

[Chortles Snortles]

OH NO AUTOATTACK AFK ISN'T WORKING
(lol)

[Trexller]

This is a free server, ran by humans that spend their hard time offering a free game. Why don't you calm down buddy and if you don't like it, leave! I personally love the changes and have been keeping aggro no problem. This isn't wow where you have a " pull aggro" button. Learn to communicate with your group members.

lets get real here, the game is free because it is illegal for them to make money off of it.

obviously we all appreciate the work the staff does. but does or should their altruistic labor of love shield them from all criticism? I propose it does not.

these p99 devs have heard alot worse than, "wahh a game mechanic got broke", and they have thick skin. They tolerate a lot of staff bashing up to some line where shit gets real I guess.

Now, if you're a game developer, and when something goes wrong in your game and all your players get pissed, and express that they are pissed, that means that they like your game, and care about it.

If nobody got pissed when your game broke then it means your game sucks and nobody cares that it broke.

The internet is no place for amenable meekness, and every single one of us knows it.

[Fammaden]

The guy he's replying to has been throwing a total temper tantrum on multiple areas of the forums over shadowknights specifically, while taking apparently zero time to actually understand the issues instead of just raging out.

Criticizing the changes is fine, acting like a baby is a dumb look and he's getting called out for it.

[Jimjam]

The guy he's replying to has been throwing a total temper tantrum on multiple areas of the forums over shadowknights specifically, while taking apparently zero time to actually understand the issues instead of just raging out.

Criticizing the changes is fine, acting like a baby is a dumb look and he's getting called out for it.

Octavian also keeps mentioning using hp scaled aggro spells vs low level (presumably low hp) mobs and wondering why they don't generate aggro as well as a group full of (presumably) hasted twink weapon swinging away ...

[Fammaden]

Octavian also keeps mentioning using hp scaled aggro spells vs low level (presumably low hp) mobs and wondering why they don't generate aggro as well as a group full of (presumably) hasted twink weapon swinging away ...

Yeah, part of the not taking any time to understand what changed exactly.

[Danth]

Yet, is there talk of this happening? Do they realize how completely broken aggro is now?

This bears repeating: The senior developers don't play on P1999 insofar as we know, and we have little reason to believe they're even aware that there's a problem, let alone how severe it is. At least I haven't seen 'em post anything on the forum. Can't get fixes until we first get their attention.

Danth

[bobjonesp99]

from what i heard they changed things and then fixed some things they broke. as far as i know for warriors, only the 400 hate from SPA counters (disease/poison) have been removed. otherwise agro is working as before (for warrior procs). is this not correct? i havent had any issues or noticed any material difference tanking with willsapper and red blade.

[Fammaden]

The big change for warrior is reported to be poison/disease counters, yeah. So Feverblade no longer very good.

Additionally spell/proc threat scales with mob HP, so you wont be able to pull aggro as well on lower HP mobs than higher ones. And the disease counter change really annoyed SK's since disease cloud is no longer top tier aggro maintenance. Most have switched to using Clinging Darkness plus Shadow Vortex for aggro.

No word yet if all this is working as intended or will be permanent or adjusted.

[Ooloo]

This bears repeating: The senior developers don't play on P1999 insofar as we know, and we have little reason to believe they're even aware that there's a problem, let alone how severe it is. At least I haven't seen 'em post anything on the forum. Can't get fixes until we first get their attention.

Danth

I'm sure they at least test changes in some kind of private environment. It would be nonsensical to simply write code for something and not actually test what you're doing.

[Danth]

Yeah, they do, but that's a common enough story: You test your changes on your developmental server, everything seems fine, patch it to the production server and something somewhere doesn't work quite right. Happens all the time.