SK Race question + item help (have never played a tank)

[Alarria]

Hi, just looking for some suggestions- I don't really want to deal with an exp. penalty for playing one of the large races or Iksar, although I know regen/stats/FSI are all huge QoL. That leaves me with a DE, Erudite or Human. Is there really any benefit to vs the other?

As far as gear, I have a FBSS, 2x Plat. Fire wedding rings and a Skull-shaped Barbute and that's all for gear. I was thinking of picking up some Crusty for armor slots, and some orc fang earrings for ears. Have a budget of only ~6-8k. Mainly looking for weapon help. Want the best bang for the buck! Shield I figure the Atramentous, but I've always only played casters so for weps I got nothing!!

Thanks in advance!

Edit- Will be playing with a cleric most of the time, trying to form PUGS or possibly killing Paineel guards.

[Jimjam]

Erud has a slight advantage in naked magic resist if that means anything to you. Dark elf has better night vision (but you get spells for that).

It's kinda a wash otherwise - the humanish races all have stats of about straight 75 - except for int in the two nerd races, which I don't really think matters all that much for most the knights career.

With that budget I'd try squeeze a ceremonial iksar chestplate - it really helps the first 30 levels. The rest you can fill with looted cloth/raw hide/ringmail/bronze as you level and snap up bargains as you see them (something cheap with str like crusty is ideal).

Mace of the Shadowed soul is a cheap starter weapon. If you have high level friends you can try jump down a pit in velks at level 5 to get a Shard of Night.

[Danth]

Those three races are pretty close for the shadow knight. Between them, appearance is probably the most important deciding factor.

--Erudite has glitchy-looking Velious helmets. It has the highest intelligence. Remember to put five points into agility so as to bring it to 75. Worst effective starting strength makes them more of a hassle to start with if wearing mediocre equipment.

--Human has the highest starting strength of the three, which can be a factor if you don't have good equipment, especially since your cleric partner cannot meaningfully buff it and his class usually has STR issues of its own. This advantage wanes over time as equipment improves and human has no particular advantage at higher levels.

--Dark elves start with excellent night vision; the class gets a vision spell anyway at level 22 but it's a great bonus for starting out. Easy access to reaper of the dead quest is a plus. Different faction alignments than the other two, able to use the ogre and troll cities to some extent but worse with most of the others.


Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you don't mind the look of Trolls or Iksars, I wouldn't discount them because of the XP penalty. Being able to regen 2x faster is effectively doubling your kill speed solo. This is going to net you more xp even after the penalty.

For weapons you want https://wiki.project1999.com/Embalmers_Skinning_Knife for infinite bandages. Will reduce your downtime and is much cheaper than the regen chest items. Getting both the dagger and a regen chest would be better, but more expensive.

For DPS weapons Mace of the Shadowed Soul, Noctavigant Blade, or Ebon Mace will work well for a while. Atrementous Shield is indeed great if you can get it, otherwise Sarnak Battle Shield is a good, cheaper alternative.

[Snaggles]

On Blue an ebon mace is like 1-1.5k. At some point around 30 I’d get a 2h since even good ratio 1h’s don’t really keep up when soloing. They are still great when tanking for bashing casters and interrupting their spells.

Humans and Erudite SK’s are actually quite easy to play. You will be KoS in some places and some guilds but in general you can navigate a lot of good and evil towns without issue. For example in Rivervale you are probably fine but the druids will kill you. DE will need serious faction to be friendly there.

I don’t believe the Regen will ever make up for the xp penalty. It doesn’t really scale until later (2 standing instead of 1 for 1-50; 3 standing instead of 10 from 56-59) and at that point you likely will be soloing one or two spawns and waiting for them to repop. Not crawling and killing non-stop. Mana would be a limitation over hps, even with an epic or Greenmist. It’s a nice perk if you want to grind it out, like frontal bash immunity with ogres but mainly if you want to be one anyways.

For a casual player the race pick is more flavor than anything. If you are a min-maxer but not a raider an ogre will swing about 70 stam over a small race which is about 360hps. Strength is higher for ease of carrying gear and extra attack lower (str capping isn’t easy). Stam capping an erudite without starting stats pumped isn’t easy. If you care about having a large mana pool though the littles have that going for them. They also don’t need shrinks or shroud of undeath (15-20k spell) to get around in HK or dungeons.

[Keebz]

Of those choices, I'd lean DE. Ultravision is nice, as is the smaller size and high int pool. I enjoy the fashion as well. Human is a good pick if you want better melee stats and to be less KoS places. Erud is good for the int and the faction, but the melee stats are the worst and most importantly the fashion is unfortunately buggy.

I'm a regen or bust boy, but the other races have their charms. It should be noted the penalty is shared amongst your group, so if you don't solo it's more like like 3-10% depending on group size.

[Keebz]

If you have high level friends you can try jump down a pit in velks at level 5 to get a Shard of Night.

I second the Shard of Night rec, but it's dropped in Chardok and can be bought relatively cheaply. The no-drop sword in Velks is Sword of Pain iirc.

Reaver is a great twink weapon 30+, as is Frostreaver if you raid (note the race restrictions on it).

[Trelaboon]

My SK is a Human, and if I didn’t have a ToV weapon on him, I’d reroll. While we do have night vision spells starting at 22 for infra vision, and 49 for Ultravision, it’s annoying having to always keep it up. We aren’t like Rangers who are going to have an easily obtainable ultra vision helm or something, so Dark Elf is really nice.

Furthermore, depending on how seriously you plan to play (raid) at 60, melee stats all max easily with buffs and good gear. They do have lower strength, which can be a pain in earlier levels, but at this point in the game, that’s less of an issue than it would be during initial server launch, classic era.

As far as gear, I’d also recommend the Iksar Chest plate (try to spend 6k) Noct blade (800p) and fill the rest in with crusty armor with your remaining 1k. While someone’s embalming skinning knife is a good idea, you’d have plenty of plat to buy one (roughly 1k) by the time the iksar BP starts slowing down at 30 or so, and the iksar BP will be a faster way of leveling prior to then.

[Ripqozko]

My SK is a Human, and if I didn’t have a ToV weapon on him, I’d reroll. While we do have night vision spells starting at 22 for infra vision, and 49 for Ultravision, it’s annoying having to always keep it up. We aren’t like Rangers who are going to have an easily obtainable ultra vision helm or something, so Dark Elf is really nice.

Furthermore, depending on how seriously you plan to play (raid) at 60, melee stats all max easily with buffs and good gear. They do have lower strength, which can be a pain in earlier levels, but at this point in the game, that’s less of an issue than it would be during initial server launch, classic era.

As far as gear, I’d also recommend the Iksar Chest plate (try to spend 6k) Noct blade (800p) and fill the rest in with crusty armor with your remaining 1k. While someone’s embalming skinning knife is a good idea, you’d have plenty of plat to buy one (roughly 1k) by the time the iksar BP starts slowing down at 30 or so, and the iksar BP will be a faster way of leveling prior to then.

DE has hard time capping sta, even with pretty good gear. Less you are VQ/riot alt

[Kirdan]

DE gets Ring of the Dead to bind anywhere as a melee. Not sure how rare they are on blue these days, but if you can find someone selling then you can have it MQ'd to your SK via the recharge quest.

[Ripqozko]

DE gets Ring of the Dead to bind anywhere as a melee. Not sure how rare they are on blue these days, but if you can find someone selling then you can have it MQ'd to your SK via the recharge quest.

They don't exist

[Ghost of Starman]

Innoruuk Human is the Min/Max Fashion choice, Inny Field Plate may be one of the most beautiful armor sets in the game, just pair that with the epic and you're drop dead gorgeous.

[sideshow]

The single best weapon you can get that will help out tremendously during the early game is a noctivagant blade. Had one when I started my troll sk and a cheap + str shield. I would also get a cheap 2hs, 1hb, 2hb, pierce weapon to keep your skills topped off as you level. Poison Wind cesnsor for 2hb, mace of the shadowed soul for 1hb, ace of lost souls for 2hs, and whatever for pierce there are a lot of choices (harpoon of the depths, iceflame, crystalline spider fang). Anything cheap to keep your skill up. In the mid to late levels 2h weapons will become better.

[Snaggles]

An advantage of a hum /eru/DE is a free 100hp shield from any rogue fight in kith. Basically a free ToV shield just for being there. It doesn’t close the stat gap but it’s something. A human and Iksar are the only small races who can equip a Frostreaver. It’s not the epic but is a solid pick for a tank weapon and looks great.

Just more thought fodder.

[Toxigen]

DE gets Ring of the Dead to bind anywhere as a melee. Not sure how rare they are on blue these days, but if you can find someone selling then you can have it MQ'd to your SK via the recharge quest.

DE 100% for the reason stated above. You can cap any stat you want but there is no replacing this QoL item.

If that doesn't interest you...its human for fashion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DE 100% for the reason stated above. You can cap any stat you want but there is no replacing this QoL item.

If that doesn't interest you...its human for fashion.

If you can buy very rare/expensive loot that doesn't drop anymore, you can just buy a locket for any race/class. Or even buy a locket click for cheaper.

[Trelaboon]

DE has hard time capping sta, even with pretty good gear. Less you are VQ/riot alt

Can get to 255 with Shaman buff, with basically no raiding, outside of HoT groups. Would require lots of rough to get items requiring luck (BoB’s, Ring 9 roll etc) Although you’re right, it’s not super easy, which is why I added the “depending how seriously you plan to play/raid it’s easy” stipulation, because that is what it takes. Especially since Pally/SK items can be pretty easy to come by in a raid environment

[Ripqozko]

Can get to 255 with Shaman buff, with basically no raiding, outside of HoT groups. Would require lots of rough to get items requiring luck (BoB’s, Ring 9 roll etc) Although you’re right, it’s not super easy, which is why I added the “depending how seriously you plan to play/raid it’s easy” stipulation, because that is what it takes. Especially since Pally/SK items can be pretty easy to come by in a raid environment

Mines pretty geared for outside raid,wtov with hot arms,vegs, str of elements, epic, priceless, ring 9, chardok ring 2, needs Bob still, has cords. 34 sta short buffed. Raiding can make it obviously but outside raiding not likely without sacrificing other stats for high sta like prexus totem.


sure theres still a path but to get it is def not as easy, vindi bp and boots, narandi and bob would gain me close? not sure id still cap tbh. but thats quite a lot of gear to cap a DE compared.

[Danth]

sure theres still a path but to get it is def not as easy, vindi bp and boots, narandi and bob would gain me close? not sure id still cap tbh. but thats quite a lot of gear to cap a DE compared.

Are you factoring in 2x alchemy stamina potions? For as seldom as a shadowknight actually needs maximum possible health, alchemy serves adequately to make up the difference and doesn't cost too much.

Danth

[Ripqozko]

Are you factoring in 2x alchemy stamina potions? For as seldom as a shadowknight actually needs maximum possible health, alchemy serves adequately to make up the difference and doesn't cost too much.

Danth

no, nor am i factoring in 5sta from food, not saying theres not a path, im saying its a hell lot more required then other races with starting higher sta/str.

[Keebz]

How useful is the Ring of the Dead? It's certainly neat, but I can't think of anything super awesome to do with it.

As for stam, I cap it on my troll without buffs with shitty gear. Also, https://i.imgur.com/0A0oVLn.png

[Ripqozko]

How useful is the Ring of the Dead? It's certainly neat, but I can't think of anything super awesome to do with it.

As for stam, I cap it on my troll without buffs with shitty gear. Also, https://i.imgur.com/0A0oVLn.png

It doesn't exist anyways and yea it's really only DE that have it lot harder stat wise.

[Kirdan]

How useful is the Ring of the Dead? It's certainly neat, but I can't think of anything super awesome to do with it.

As for stam, I cap it on my troll without buffs with shitty gear. Also, https://i.imgur.com/0A0oVLn.png

It made binding at firepots much easier, not even sure how many lockets existed when they ended firepot binding, it was pretty quick after Kunark launch. Definitely a gimmick to be bound there as an SK though, since you don't have the ability to easily gate. I haven't found a way to really take advantage of it yet. It makes velious DESKs more flexible, if you want to move your bind away from ToV then you can without it costing an arm and a leg to change it back etc. Still, it is added capability that the other races lack. OP is only choosing between DE/HUM/ERU.

[Crede]

I've done quite a few SK builds. Troll regen is really nice, but 50+ mana & mana regen is what keeps you going the longest, especially if you can afford a fungi as well.

Go human if you like being more rare, otherwise I'd go DE for fashion, INT, and nice AGI. Perma ultravision is nice as well, although SKs do eventually get the spell. Avoid Erudite if you can, unless youre just specifically going to wear the steelsilk armor and dont plan to upgrade to more respectable gear. Their plate fashion is trash.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've done quite a few SK builds. Troll regen is really nice, but 50+ mana & mana regen is what keeps you going the longest, especially if you can afford a fungi as well.


For soloing Troll regen is generally > max mana if you have fungi and all the clickies like BP greaves. My Troll SK's gear fluctuates his Mana between 1700 and 2100 or so, and I never notice when I have the 2100 vs the 1700. I'm rarely at max mana anyway. Clickies and Flowing Thought are doing most of the mana saving on an SK (and Soul Defiler if you can grab one).

Troll Regen = less need to lifetap = more mana saved. At 60 you are gaining 80 HP/Min standing over other races, and Drain soul is around a 1.5 HP / Mana ratio. So you are potentially saving 53 mana per minute on less life taps, which is the equivalent of Flowing Thought 5.

Not saying max mana can never help. If you are in a bad situation, being able to tap a few more times is nice. But it's not going to be better than half of a Fungi Tunic's worth of HP regen at 60, when soloing at least. In Raids/Groups it's different, since you are going to have a healer anyway. But SK's are the worst raiding class, so I wouldn't generally recommend people trying to min/max for it.

[Toxigen]

iksar because greenmist

[DeathsSilkyMist]

iksar because greenmist

Blood Ember clickies are generally going to be more useful than Greenmist when soloing. It's not that great of a weapon. Epic is better, and swapping Greenmist + Epic before going back to your DPS weapon is going to lose you a lot of DPS, which means taking more damage or spending more mana anyway.

I would only recommend Iksar for Greenmist if you are 100% sure you are never going to raid. By this I mean you are not going to get raid gear for your SK, you are fine with being level 60 in EC gear. It's a good weapon in that specific scenario, since it is kind of an "Epic lite", and one of the better non-raid weapons. MQing an Epic is pretty expensive for that kind of player, probably outside of their budget. Greenmist is much cheaper.

Epic is 50 HP/Tick over 5 ticks.

Greenmist is 30 HP/Tick over 8 ticks.

If you have 255 DEX you are procing an average of every 5 ticks (2 per minute). Epic is giving you 500 HP per minute (10 ticks of 50 HP), where Epic + Greenmist is giving you 490 HP per minute if you always proc Epic first and let Greenmist finish during the next minute.

The only thing Epic + Greenmist lets you do is stack the DoTs, so you could get a bit of extra HP in that scenario, but that just depends on when you proc them. If you proc Epic + Greenmist within two ticks, that is 350 HP (7 ticks of Epic if you reproced it) vs. 490 HP (250 from Epic + 240 from Greenmist over 10 ticks total). This assumes you wouldn't have proced Epic a third time within those 10 ticks.

The extra 100 HP or so you could gain in the short term via stacking the DoTs is probably not worth the DPS loss you are getting from swinging with Greenmist. That is basically 1 attack from a higher level mob, so finishing the fight a few seconds earlier will probably get you to around the same place.

[Ripqozko]

Blood Ember clickies are generally going to be more useful than Greenmist when soloing. It's not that great of a weapon. Epic is better, and swapping Greenmist + Epic before going back to your DPS weapon is going to lose you a lot of DPS, which means taking more damage or spending more mana anyway.

I would only recommend Iksar for Greenmist if you are 100% sure you are never going to raid. By this I mean you are not going to get raid gear for your SK, you are fine with being level 60 in EC gear. It's a good weapon in that specific scenario, since it is kind of an "Epic lite", and one of the better non-raid weapons. MQing an Epic is pretty expensive for that kind of player, probably outside of their budget. Greenmist is much cheaper.

Epic is 50 HP/Tick over 5 ticks.

Greenmist is 30 HP/Tick over 8 ticks.

If you have 255 DEX you are procing an average of every 5 ticks (2 per minute). Epic is giving you 500 HP per minute, where Epic + Greenmist is giving you 590 HP per minute if you always proc Epic first and let Greenmist finish during the next minute.

In reality you probably aren't going to get that perfect of proc rates, and Epic is just much better when it comes to re-applying the DoT. The additional 90 HP heal is not really worth the DPS drop of having to swing with Greenmist. You'll probably save more HP just getting the fight over faster.

i agree with DSM? yikes. not like SK epic is hard to get either with golem races still a thing and MQ not that expensive at worst case.

[Keebz]

I've done quite a few SK builds. Troll regen is really nice, but 50+ mana & mana regen is what keeps you going the longest, especially if you can afford a fungi as well.

This is very true. You always gotta balance Int/Mana with hp/ac. Spells are where we get out power. This is obviously end game, but I will say the regen is plays into this by offsetting Call of Bones from Souldefiler.

Honestly, I secretly think Iksar might be the best endgame race due to the AC, better resists and more manageable size than Troll, but that 2hs animation is just too cringe for me. The Blood Ember clickies are sick while leveling, but at 60 it's pretty rare that they come in handy.

Of the choices though, I'm still on team DE. Human would be my second choice for more well rounded stats, better faction and solid fashion.

[Danth]

If you are in a bad situation, being able to tap a few more times is nice.

If you're talking dark elf versus human, it's one more tap effectively--or same number of taps but with the DE keeping a better reserve for a last ditch feign. Drain Soul is 225 mana, so that's about the same as the typical mana difference between human or dark elf given equivalent equipment. Might work out to about two taps versus a troll depending on whether the troll added anything to intelligence at creation.

But my human shadow knight has a winged serpent helm, so other arguments are invalid.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're talking dark elf versus human, it's one more tap effectively--or same number of taps but with the DE keeping a better reserve for a last ditch feign. Drain Soul is 225 mana, so that's about the same as the typical mana difference between human or dark elf given equivalent equipment. Might work out to about two taps versus a troll depending on whether the troll added anything to intelligence at creation.

But my human shadow knight has a winged serpent helm, so other arguments are invalid.

Danth

Oh I was talking about Troll vs Dark Elf. Yeah DE > Human stat/racial wise.

For level 60 fights, Max Mana vs. HP Regen is heavily dependent on a number of factors. A Troll who puts 20 into int is going to have 27 less INT than a DE who puts their points into STA. So the difference is roughly 150-300 mana, depending on if you are over 200 INT. That is basically 1 Drain Soul (335 HP).

Any solo challenge fight that lasts 4 minutes or less would be in the DE's favor, assuming you are going into the fight at max HP/Mana. You would have 335 HP via Drain Soul vs. the Troll's 320 HP via HP Regen. The Troll's number would decrease as the kill time decreases.

Any solo challenge fight that lasts over 4 minutes would be in the Troll's favor, since you would have regenerated 400 HP in 5 minutes, and you don't have to spend time casting Drain Soul. The longer the fight lasts, the more the Troll regenerates, whereas you will probably never get back to max mana during that fight.

When you are fighting many mobs over the course of an hour to XP, grind plat, etc., Troll is also better since you are not going to be at max mana most of the time. The HP regen is going to be giving you a lot more HP per hour. That is why Trolls generally are better over DE. There are more situations where HP regen is superior to max mana. The only real exception to this is if you mostly group/raid. HP regen loses a lot of utility in those situations, because you are either dying very quickly (raiding), or you are getting healed, so you are regenerating less (groups).

[Danth]

Trolls are good but not good enough to make me want my guy to look like a green tub of lard.

In terms of leveling, my own experience was that the penalized races could not maintain equal XP/hour (controlling for other factors) as the unpenalized races, racial regeneration notwithstanding. However, note that my own leveling was done a solid decade or more ago (I've been 60 a long time) when conditions were very different on P1999 than they are today. Seems like fungus tunics can practically be used as a currency and narandi lances just about fall out of the sky now, so things might be different today.

Between the races listed by the original poster, or any races really, having the right weapons or a good duo partner will improve quality of life far more than worrying overmuch about racial differences.

Danth

[Keebz]

Regen is good for raiding though, esp. if you pull. Many times I've gotten smacked to 10% hp or so and had to lay there FD for a while. Racial regen speeds up recovery time significantly. Not to mention there's a ton of AE fights (esp. ones w/ dots), where the regen is worth something.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trolls are good but not good enough to make me want my guy to look like a green tub of lard.

In terms of leveling, my own experience was that the penalized races could not maintain equal XP/hour (controlling for other factors) as the unpenalized races, racial regeneration notwithstanding. However, note that my own leveling was done a solid decade or more ago (I've been 60 a long time) when conditions were very different on P1999 than they are today. Seems like fungus tunics can practically be used as a currency and narandi lances just about fall out of the sky now, so things might be different today.

Between the races listed by the original poster, or any races really, having the right weapons or a good duo partner will improve quality of life far more than worrying overmuch about racial differences.

Danth

Of course, if you care about fashion then you may not like a certain race for w/e reason. And yes, if you were leveling back when Troll SK's had like a 68% xp penalty from Race + Class, the regen would probably not overcome the penalty. When the penalty is only 20% on the timeline, the regen is probably better if you are mostly soloing for XP. You'll get similar XP levels, and more money/loot since you are killing more things per hour.

And yes, equipment plays a big role too. A Troll with a Rusty 2h sword and leather armor is probably not going to do better than a Dark Elf with like 5K worth of EC gear, if that money was focused into a good weapon.

Regen is good for raiding though, esp. if you pull. Many times I've gotten smacked to 10% hp or so and had to lay there FD for a while. Racial regen speeds up recovery time significantly. Not to mention there's a ton of AE fights (esp. ones w/ dots), where the regen is worth something.

Yup, that is true. Regen helps reducing pull times for sure. In terms of AoE fights it doesn't help too much, since most raid fights are only a few minutes long. But yes, it has a small chance to save you in AoE fights too, depending on the duration of the fight and number of AoE's proced.

Unfortunately SK's don't pull too much in raids outside of like VP and Sky Island 3. Generally speaking you are swapping to another character as an SK main when raiding, so reduced pulling time and AoE tankiness isn't being used anyway:)

[Snaggles]

Regen is good for raiding though, esp. if you pull. Many times I've gotten smacked to 10% hp or so and had to lay there FD for a while. Racial regen speeds up recovery time significantly. Not to mention there's a ton of AE fights (esp. ones w/ dots), where the regen is worth something.

8hps/tick extra isnt going to do anything against an AoE. It's 80hps a minute.
It is a notable benefit while FD though as you pointed out. Get in over your head, successfully FD, go eat dinner and come back almost full health again.

[Keebz]

It's like a free spot heal on an AoE fight where healing is often tight. As for pulling, people may frown on it in ToV (though honestly anyone with TL box can do 90% of the pulls there), but everywhere else is fair game, esp. places like Fear. Pulling and AoE fights are like the only things an SK is arguably desirable for on raids, and regen is good in those situations is what I'm saying.

Not the end of the world without it though by any means.

[Crede]

Of course, if you care about fashion then you may not like a certain race for w/e reason. And yes, if you were leveling back when Troll SK's had like a 68% xp penalty from Race + Class, the regen would probably not overcome the penalty. When the penalty is only 20% on the timeline, the regen is probably better if you are mostly soloing for XP. You'll get similar XP levels, and more money/loot since you are killing more things per hour.

And yes, equipment plays a big role too. A Troll with a Rusty 2h sword and leather armor is probably not going to do better than a Dark Elf with like 5K worth of EC gear, if that money was focused into a good weapon.



Yup, that is true. Regen helps reducing pull times for sure. In terms of AoE fights it doesn't help too much, since most raid fights are only a few minutes long. But yes, it has a small chance to save you in AoE fights too, depending on the duration of the fight and number of AoE's proced.

Unfortunately SK's don't pull too much in raids outside of like VP and Sky Island 3. Generally speaking you are swapping to another character as an SK main when raiding, so reduced pulling time and AoE tankiness isn't being used anyway:)

There’s no data to suggest regen outweighs the penalty. I have a 60 troll sk as well and have done many builds. In most cases you are limited by other things like mob availability. An sk relying on hp regen for efficient soloing 50+ isn’t ideal. You want to be fear kiting and focusing on mana regen primarily. My trolls fungi/epic was more than enough and eventually you hit a point where you are prob better off medding for the next round than having extra regen which is why a bigger mana pool is nice for keeping a long fear kiting session grinding. I also don’t believe any iksar could have out leveled my human Necro because eventually you just tap everything to death. 20% is a hell of a lot more kills from 1-60. I saw you mention that double the regen equates to double the leveling speed, this is completely inaccurate if you actually know to effectively utilize your toolset and pick the appropriate mobs to kill.

I think Most would agree regen is more about the benefit at 60, not for the speed of leveling.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There’s no data to suggest regen outweighs the penalty. I have a 60 troll sk as well and have done many builds. In most cases you are limited by other things like mob availability. An sk relying on hp regen for efficient soloing 50+ isn’t ideal. You want to be fear kiting and focusing on mana regen primarily. My trolls fungi/epic was more than enough and eventually you hit a point where you are prob better off medding for the next round than having extra regen which is why a bigger mana pool is nice for keeping a long fear kiting session grinding. I also don’t believe any iksar could have out leveled my human Necro because eventually you just tap everything to death. 20% is a hell of a lot more kills from 1-60.

I think Most would agree regen is more about the benefit at 60, not for the speed of leveling.

I agree what camps you do are a big factor. If you just AFK kill 1 mob every 30 minutes, HP regen basically does nothing for you in terms of kills per hour. In that case not having an XP penalty is better for the speed of leveling.

When fear kiting on my level 58 Troll SK I still need to heal, so the regeneration is still reducing downtime. From my experience with fear kiting, I am usually not at full mana, unless I AFK or am camping less mobs. So in an optimal scenario, the max mana does nothing for me, since I am never at max mana. The nice thing about Troll regen is you can wear a Chest item like Vindi BP. With the 8 + 2 you are getting 2/3rds of a Fungi Tunic in terms of Regeneration, plus all the nice stats.

Edit: Obviously you wouldn't be sitting the entire hour while soloing, I brain farted on that. You would probably be sitting half the time while soloing. At level 49 you would be getting like 1200 HP an hour while sitting as a Troll/Iksar over other races, due to getting an extra +4 HP regen sitting from 20-49. When meditating at 16 mana per tick as a level 49, that is saving like 7 minutes per hour (10% more kills). This is because life taps from levels 9-50 have horrible ratios for SK's. They are around a 1 to 1 HP/Mana ratio. Gaining 1200 HP per hour could be equated to saving 1200 mana per hour, depending on how you are using your spells.

At lower levels you would have a bigger increase in kills based on your meditate skill level. I forget what the numbers would be at lower levels, I would need to hop on a lower level caster and check. Since meditate gives you 1 mana per 15 points, I want to say a level 20 would only get 8 mana per tick, but I am not 100% sure on that. If that is the case, you would get 20% more kills per hour. So I would imagine the average from 20-50 would be more like a 15% increase in kill speed. This is again assuming you are killing the entire hour, and not AFKing.

[Encroaching Death]

I chose Human, because I liked the Bloodsabers

[Danth]

...

What is it you grind on, by the way? Would give me an idea what you're doing for the sake of comparison. Feel free to PM if you don't want to hi-jack the main purpose of the thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What is it you grind on, by the way? Would give me an idea what you're doing for the sake of comparison. Feel free to PM if you don't want to hi-jack the main purpose of the thread.

Right now my SK does Howling Stones North mostly. With Dooming Darkness you can use the safe ramp as a fear kiting spot. You just need to kill the three mobs by the picture drop to get the full length. You can do it with just the ramp if you spam slam (stuns shorten how far the mob can run), but that is still a bit risky with the pathers. Occasionally you can get too close. I usually only do that with the mob in the corner if I am initially clearing.

I clear the ramp and as many of the pathers as I can. That usually will keep me occupied until repops. There are enough mobs outside of the rooms to where you don't need to worry about running out of mobs before repops. This also means you don't need to waste time/resources splitting the rooms.

Before that I was doing WL goos. Those are pretty good from 55-57 or so. If you have all the goos to yourself in either room, then there isn't much downtime between clearing them and repops, so the regen is helping at that camp too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I apologize, I messed up bad on the regeneration math from my previous post lol.

I also should have looked at the wiki hehe. https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Meditate. If that table is correct, an SK would be regenerating at 8-15 mana per med tick from levels 20-49, depending on level. I was thinking it was 15 points into meditate before you gained more mana regeneration, instead of 12.

Trolls/Iksars get +1 HP per tick compared to other races while standing from levels 20-49. Sitting they get +3 HP per tick from levels 20-49 compared to other races. If you sit for 30 minutes an hour, you get 300 HP from standing, and 900 HP from sitting, for a total of 1200 HP per hour. So you would be increasing your kill speed by 15 minutes at level 20 (1200 Mana spent on life taps / 80 mana meditated per minute), to 8 minutes at level 49 (1200 Mana spent on life taps / 150 mana meditated per minute). That would be an increase in kill speed of 25% at level 20, to 13% at level 49. This is because life taps from 9-50 have basically a 1 to 1 HP/Mana ratio, so if you are using them to heal, you are trading 1 mana for 1 HP.

On average that would mean you could keep pace with a race that has a 0% XP penalty, but since the higher levels typically take longer, you probably would end up being a bit slower. I am sure it does depend on what you are killing, since different mobs give different experience. That would be harder to quantify, given many mobs have level ranges.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One more time. My brain is apparently a mess today. Please ignore my other HP regeneration posts.

Trolls/Iksars get +1 HP per tick compared to other races while standing from levels 20-49. Sitting they get +3 HP per tick from levels 20-49 compared to other races. If you sit for 30 minutes an hour, you get 300 HP from standing, and 900 HP from sitting, for a total of +1200 HP per hour compared to other races. All Shadowknights meditate at 8-15 mana per tick from levels 20-49, depending on level.

From levels 20-29, Life Spike has a ratio of 1.64 mana to life. This means it would take 1900 mana roughly to heal 1200 HP. Troll/Iksar HP regen would decrease your meditation time by: (1900 mana spent on life taps per hour / 80 mana meditated per minute) = 23.75 minutes per hour at level 20. Generally you would be fear kiting instead of just life tap spamming, meaning this is not what most players will do.

From levels 30-49, Life Draw has a ratio of 1.4 mana to life. This means it would take 1700 mana roughly to heal 1200 HP. Troll/Iksar HP regen would decrease your meditation time by: (1700 mana spent on life taps per hour / 150 mana meditated per minute) = 11.33 minutes per hour at level 49. Generally you would be fear kiting instead of just life tap spamming, meaning this is not what most players will do.

In theory that is a 40% increase in kill speed at level 20, which reduces as you level to a 19% increase in kill speed at level 49. This is assuming you are only spamming life taps, which isn't realistic. With fear kiting, you aren't going to be taking as much damage, so you won't be working with these numbers. With fear kiting my guess is you would probably be getting a 10%-20% increase in kill speed depending on player level, mob difficulty, and strategy.

[Crede]

One more time. My brain is apparently a mess today.

Trolls/Iksars get +1 HP per tick compared to other races while standing from levels 20-49. Sitting they get +3 HP per tick from levels 20-49 compared to other races. If you sit for 30 minutes an hour, you get 300 HP from standing, and 900 HP from sitting, for a total of 1200 HP per hour. They meditate at 8-15 mana per tick from level 20-49, depending on level.

From levels 20-30, Life Spike has a ratio of 1.64 mana to life. This means it would take 1900 mana roughly to heal 1200 HP. So the HP regen would decrease your meditation time by: (1900 mana spent on life taps per hour / 80 mana meditated per minute) = 23.75 minutes per hour. Generally you would be fear kiting instead of just tap spamming, but that is worst case.

From levels 30-49, Life Draw has a ratio of 1.4 mana to life. This means it would take 1700 mana roughly to heal 1200 HP. So the HP regen would decrease your meditation time by: (1700 mana spent on life taps per hour / 150 mana meditated per minute) = 11.33 minutes per hour. Generally you would be fear kiting instead of just tap spamming, but that is worst case.

In theory that is a 40% increase in kill speed at level 20 (worst case), to a 19% increase in kill speed at level 49 (worst case). With fear kiting, you aren't going to be taking as much damage, so you won't be capitalizing fully on these numbers. In reality it is probably half that, so the HP regen is probably giving you a 10-20% increase in kill speed, depending on what you are doing.

Using lifetaps as a means of measuring leveling speed on an SK is a really inefficient statistic. SKs start to get pretty good at fear kiting at lvl 22 with engulfing darkness & spook the dead. At that point, it's already drastically more efficient than face tanking with shitty lifetaps.

Once you add in a fungi, which is really not that hard to obtain on these servers, it really starts to tip the scale in favor of non regen races. Add in a crown of narandi, and it becomes even better. The key to SKs is to just avoiding taking hits as much as possible. When you get epic, you can start to balance it a little more. And the blood ember clickies can start to help even more, especially the gauntlets(for this reason iksars are the worst leveling sk race)

As I stated previously, the main benefit of regen will be seen at 60 with pulling & the occasional FD afk.

The data doesn't exist so we will never fully know, but based on me leveling 4 different SKs to the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60, I would say that the regen advantage maybe offsets around 5-7% of the xp penalty at best. The biggest advantage I found with my Troll when leveling was being able to slam with a nice 2h while fear kiting. But once you obtain epic, you can easily swap that in for bashes(and the occasional proc), so it's more of a convenience at that point.

[Snaggles]

When the game becomes a real slog you will prob be doing a spawn or two and sitting until repop. At that point mana and hps will be full by the time you need to kill another round.

Best case for regen seems FD recovery (when you don’t want to stand for a bit for fear of death) or killing green cons that barely tickle you. Running from point to point it does recover more hps. 10 min run + 800hps over a non regen class.

I just can’t see that making up for a 20% penalty. The Greenmist is very tempting for many reasons. I like the way trolls look. Any geared up sk is great at 60. You can say that about any class or race though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Using lifetaps as a means of measuring leveling speed on an SK is a really inefficient statistic. SKs start to get pretty good at fear kiting at lvl 22 with engulfing darkness & spook the dead. At that point, it's already drastically more efficient than face tanking with shitty lifetaps.


I agree. I am just making a rough guess since I didn't save my leveling data from 1-58 on my Troll. What I probably will do at some point is test roughly how many hits you take via fear kiting, and use that as an estimate for how much HP you lose per hour. There's a lot of variability to this based on how/what you fear kite, but we will see.


Once you add in a fungi, which is really not that hard to obtain on these servers, it really starts to tip the scale in favor of non regen races. Add in a crown of narandi, and it becomes even better. The key to SKs is to just avoiding taking hits as much as possible. When you get epic, you can start to balance it a little more. And the blood ember clickies can start to help even more, especially the gauntlets(for this reason iksars are the worst leveling sk race)


Agreed. You want to avoid taking hits (fear kiting), and not having Blood Ember Gloves is a huge problem for Iksars when leveling. Those save you a ton of mana. Fungi and Narandi Crown will take you to 50 for sure, regardless of race. My calculations are NOT assuming the player has a Fungi and Narandi Crown. If you have that kind of money to spend, the real solution is just to pay for power leveling if you care about leveling speed. That will be faster than the Fungi/Crown solo path:)


As I stated previously, the main benefit of regen will be seen at 60 with pulling & the occasional FD afk.

The data doesn't exist so we will never fully know, but based on me leveling 4 different SKs to the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60, I would say that the regen advantage maybe offsets around 5-7% of the xp penalty at best. The biggest advantage I found with my Troll when leveling was being able to slam with a nice 2h while fear kiting. But once you obtain epic, you can easily swap that in for bashes(and the occasional proc), so it's more of a convenience at that point.

The nice thing about Troll/Iksar Regeneration is you get more kills per hour while leveling (assuming you are at a camp that supports killing that many mobs). Lets say the 5-7% number ends up being correct. Being able to kill 5-7% more mobs per hour means you are spending 5-7% less time doing things like farming money off of mobs that don't give experience. If you are killing guards from 20-55, for example, a Troll will end up with 5-7% more money than the Human/Dark Elf by the time they hit 55. So in theory that would increase your kill speed by 5-7% and decrease your time spent money farming by 5-7% as well. So the total reduction in time from leveling 1-60 is more like 10-15%. That still may not end up beating the xp penalty, but it could come close depending on how you play.

This is a super crude example, but it illustrates the basic point:

A Human SK with a goal of obtaining 40k while leveling:

The Human spends 100 hours getting 200pp/hour and XP via killing guards.

The Human spends 100 hours getting 200pp/hour, gets no XP via killing guards due to leveling out of that guard spot.

A Troll SK with a goal of obtaining 40k while leveling:

The Troll spends 120 hours (20% xp penalty) getting 200pp/hour and XP via killing guards.

The Troll spends 80 hours getting 200pp/hour, gets no XP via killing guards due to leveling out of that guard spot.

Both end up at the same spot in terms of XP, money, and total time spent. Obviously there is a lot of variability in play, but that is an example. I did indeed spend quite a bit of time killing guards for no XP on my Shadowknight, so I could afford upgrades like better weapons, haste, regen BP, etc. He wasn't twinked, so I had to make all the money I used for items.

[Jimjam]

I chose Human, because I liked the Bloodsabers

Big (if admittedly disease ridden) todger energy here on character creation logic.

[Encroaching Death]

Big (if admittedly disease ridden) todger energy here on character creation logic.

I had my main man, Typhus, Herald of the Plague God, in mind during creation:
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120102076_DeathGuardTyphus01.jpg

[strongNpretty]

Man oh man, but those Erudites in their cultural armor?! Wooooooooooooooooooo they look so good!

[Encroaching Death]

Man oh man, but those Erudites in their cultural armor?! Wooooooooooooooooooo they look so good!

They do look cool, but I always wished their plate graphics looked more like the guards in Erudin.

https://www.everquest.com/images/news_images/erudin/erudinimage22.jpg

[Crede]

https://wiki.project1999.com/images/Sinfully_handsome.png

Steelsilk is a neat option for a fashion build. The problem is when you decide to start upgrading pieces, erudites just start to look a bit strange. The biggest issue is crown of narandi, where your head will be just the plain naked purple look which looks terrible. Between DEs and humans for fashion, I don't really see a need to go erudite on a SK. The extra INT isn't enough to make up for their downsides IMO, but ymmv.

[Ghost of Starman]

Erudite got done dirty by the naked helm issue and the velious helm texture issue, it's like someone really hated their heads or something. If the velious helms were fixed I'd play a female erudite cleric in a heartbeat, their non-bugged helm graphic is one of the best by far.

[Kirdan]

...The biggest issue is crown of narandi, where your head will be just the plain naked purple look which looks terrible...

Fun fact: the erudite hood tint is determined by your hand slot.

[Crede]

Fun fact: the erudite hood tint is determined by your hand slot.

Crown of narandi totally negates the hand slot effect. So you look naked. My pally just wears the dw helm which does get tinted by the hand slot.

[Encroaching Death]

it's like someone really hated their heads or something.

And in the new character models, their heads got stretched into coneheads and they have giant foreheads

[Snaggles]

Icepaw skull helm is solid fashion on an eru sk too. Black chain :)

[Sweeper41]

Agreed. You want to avoid taking hits (fear kiting), and not having Blood Ember Gloves is a huge problem for Iksars when leveling. Those save you a ton of mana. Fungi and Narandi Crown will take you to 50 for sure, regardless of race. My calculations are NOT assuming the player has a Fungi and Narandi Crown. If you have that kind of money to spend, the real solution is just to pay for power leveling if you care about leveling speed. That will be faster than the Fungi/Crown solo path:)





Not having Blood Ember gloves is not a huge problem for Iksar. It's a none issue. Sure you'll save some mana but its not going to matter in the long run. I solo'ed all the way to 60 without blood ember or a fungi or a crown. This dude just hates Iksar. He shits on them every chance he gets while not even getting to 60 on his sk.

[Ennewi]

I would only recommend Iksar for Greenmist if you are 100% sure you are never going to raid. By this I mean you are not going to get raid gear for your SK, you are fine with being level 60 in EC gear. It's a good weapon in that specific scenario, since it is kind of an "Epic lite", and one of the better non-raid weapons.

Wouldn't it be considered BiS in Kunark / versus Kunark dragons due to the MR though? 10 more MR than epic and the sk can throw on a shield for even more resists and other stats to compensate. Granted, tanks are going to be in with bards but the resists are there regardless if bard dies, disconnects, gets oor, or other unexpected problems take place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not having Blood Ember gloves is not a huge problem for Iksar. It's a none issue. Sure you'll save some mana but its not going to matter in the long run. I solo'ed all the way to 60 without blood ember or a fungi or a crown. This dude just hates Iksar. He shits on them every chance he gets while not even getting to 60 on his sk.

You get more benfit from the mana saved than Greenmist. Blood Ember is better in most cases.

No one has said you can't solo to 60 on an Iksar:)

I don't hate iksars at all. I have an Iksar Monk. Iksars are amazing Necros/Monks, and bad Warriors/Shamans/Shadowknights. Losing Kunark plate is a big sacrifice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wouldn't it be considered BiS in Kunark / versus Kunark dragons due to the MR though? 10 more MR than epic and the sk can throw on a shield for even more resists and other stats to compensate. Granted, tanks are going to be in with bards but the resists are there regardless if bard dies, disconnects, gets oor, or other unexpected problems take place.

SKs are the worst raiding class in the game, and the MR is mostly only going to matter in raiding. Most group content doesn't need 255 MR. I wouldn't try to Min/Max for raiding as an SK.

[Ripqozko]

Ah shit, here we go again

[Snaggles]

66 second 40% free snare on a 5 second click time.
18 second free fear on a 7 second click time

Twelve seconds of clicking so you can get maybe two combat rounds i before you have to boot click again.

The best part of a SK is hitting level 49 and never having to cast fear or engulfing again. If you aren’t a lizard you might as well have BE pieces but come on.

[Crede]

You get more benfit from the mana saved than Greenmist. Blood Ember is better in most cases.

No one has said you can't solo to 60 on an Iksar:)

I don't hate iksars at all. I have an Iksar Monk. Iksars are amazing Necros/Monks, and bad Warriors/Shamans/Shadowknights. Losing Kunark plate is a big sacrifice.

Losing kunark gear is not a big deal. Velious gear is better and wearable by iksars.

SKs are the worst raiding class in the game, and the MR is mostly only going to matter in raiding. Most group content doesn't need 255 MR. I wouldn't try to Min/Max for raiding as an SK.

Despite the fact that sks are bad raiders is irrelevant to the discussion of min/maxing. Iksars make the best raiding shamans, warriors, sks at 60, and arguably the best non raiding too. Just because you only solo and enjoy the kunark clickies doesn’t make iksars a bad choice. Greenmist and regen will still save you a lot of downtime.

Your bias really shows here, as you continue to spread false information. Blood ember is nice for saving mana, but it’s not the end all be all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Losing kunark gear is not a big deal. Velious gear is better and wearable by iksars.


The clickies are the important part. They will help you more with soloing than Greenmist. When raiding, neither Blood Ember or Greenmist are needed/required. It's really that simple.



Despite the fact that sks are bad raiders is irrelevant to the discussion of min/maxing. Iksars make the best raiding shamans, warriors, sks at 60, and arguably the best non raiding too. Just because you only solo and enjoy the kunark clickies doesn’t make iksars a bad choice. Greenmist and regen will still save you a lot of downtime.

Your bias really shows here, as you continue to spread false information.

It isn't irrelevant, because min/maxing for raiding on an SK is pointless. You are going to be switching to another character most of the time.

I really don't understand this silly idea of "showing bias". Everybody does that, because everybody has an opinion. You are doing it too! The difference is my opinions are actually based on math and facts:) Please stop saying I am "spreading false information" without actual evidence for your claims.

Factually speaking Blood Ember saves you more time soloing than Greenmist.

[Ripqozko]

949

[Samoht]

Not having Blood Ember gloves is not a huge problem for Iksar. It's a none issue. Sure you'll save some mana but its not going to matter in the long run. I solo'ed all the way to 60 without blood ember or a fungi or a crown. This dude just hates Iksar. He shits on them every chance he gets while not even getting to 60 on his sk.

Yeah, the mana cost of Engulfing Darkness is 100% negligible. Twice the cast time, though, so it sucks.

Zero advantage to blood ember armor besides legs giving a third FD for when the first two fail and are on cooldown. Rare scenario that I'm willing to overlook to play a better race.

[Crede]

The clickies are the important part. They will help you more with soloing than Greenmist. When raiding, neither Blood Ember or Greenmist are needed/required. It's really that simple.


Nothing is needed or required for anything. You don't need BE for soloing either. This has to be the worst point I've ever heard you make. It's irrelevant to the discussion at hand, as you can still talk about marginal benefits. An iksar is still the best raiding SK due to greenmist resists, AC bonus, & regen. It's really that simple.


It isn't irrelevant, because min/maxing for raiding on an SK is pointless. You are going to be switching to another character most of the time.

I really don't understand this silly idea of "showing bias". Everybody does that, because everybody has an opinion. You are doing it too! The difference is my opinions are actually based on math and facts:) Please stop saying I am "spreading false information" without actual evidence for your claims.

Factually speaking Blood Ember saves you more time soloing than Greenmist.


You stated iksars make bad shamans, sks, warriors. This is factually incorrect, as they make the best raiding shamans, sks, and warriors, and arguably the best grouping shamana/sks/warriors as well. You can even make a case for them being the best soloing versions as well. Kunark clickies have nothing to do with "best" when talking about min max at 60. It's really that simple.

The only thing factually correct that you've stated is the benefit of blood ember saving mana. While kunark clickies are nice, they are not the sole determining factor if you're trying to min max a race.

Pretty much all of your claims are "best solo benefit at 60 = best race to play for said class". These are opinions based on incorrect math, as not everyone spends 99-100% of their time soloing like you do.

[Jimjam]

I have troll sk with most of the be clickies (just lacking boots afaik). They get use, but it doesn’t open up a whole nother level. I wouldn’t say my toon would be ‘bad’ without them.

[Jobaber]

as long as we all agree the only shaman on a raid should be logged into for buffs, right?

:o

[Snaggles]

In a grind group who even casts engulfing? Clinging does the trick and if you land it at half health it will last the duration of the kill. Dooming lasts 50% longer and snares 50% slower for fear-kiting, I’d burn the 60 extra mana to have to do less casting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nothing is needed or required for anything. You don't need BE for soloing either. This has to be the worst point I've ever heard you make. It's irrelevant to the discussion at hand, as you can still talk about marginal benefits. An iksar is still the best raiding SK due to greenmist resists, AC bonus, & regen. It's really that simple.


The only bad point here is this. Saying nothing matters is pointless in a discussion. People what to know what is best, even if it doesn't matter. You can enjoy min/maxing even if it isn't required for content. I am simply stating the facts of the game so people can make the decision that is best for them. I don't know why you have to keep muddying the facts. If you think I am wrong, actually back it up with math/facts.



You stated iksars make bad shamans, sks, warriors. This is factually incorrect, as they make the best raiding shamans, sks, and warriors, and arguably the best grouping shamana/sks/warriors as well. You can even make a case for them being the best soloing versions as well. Kunark clickies have nothing to do with "best" when talking about min max at 60. It's really that simple.


The problem here is you don't understand what Min/Max means. Min/Max means you get most benefit in the most situations. Most people aren't Min/Maxing for raiding, because most people don't raid often. For P99, Min/Max is always going to go towards Soloing/Grouping, because that is what most people do most of the time.


The only thing factually correct that you've stated is the benefit of blood ember saving mana. While kunark clickies are nice, they are not the sole determining factor if you're trying to min max a race.

How am I incorrect? Saving mana on a mana-bound class is more important than saving HP. That is a simple fact. Sitting and meditating less = more time killing mobs.

When looking at Iksar vs. non-Iksar Warrior/Shaman/Shadowknight, clickies are the primary factor. That is the main trade-off. You can pick a Troll for Warrior/Shaman/Shadowknight, so the Regeneration isn't a factor. The Iksar AC bonus is quite minor on plate wearing classes, so it is a negligible factor. You are basically doing a Greenmist vs. Blood Ember calculation, and Blood Ember wins out.

[Samoht]

Kunark clickies are almost entirely irrelevant. Some of them have convenience factor, like Cobalt legs, but you don't *have* to be able to invis other people... Larrikan's Mask (https://wiki.project1999.com/Larrikan%27s_Mask)/Invis rings work just as well for yourself but have to be recharged. Plus, you should be carrying Ring of shdows (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_shadows) anyway for the instant cast time if you're really playing optimally. But this isn't a discussion about warriors. Just a real example.

JBB is one of the most overrated items in the game. It's sucks so much. But this isn't a discussion about shamans. It's just another example of why you don't need kunark clickies.

The blood ember armor sucks. I'm no worse off if I were to spend an additional tick or two medding than spending the time it takes to equip, stand, and cast the item then put it back into the bags instead of just skipping it all together.

They don't even save the spell gems. It's not like SK has important spells on long cooldown like DA or harvest. What else would you even have up? What else COULD you even have up?

Blood ember = junk.

Don't do drugs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Kunark clickies are almost entirely irrelevant. Some of them have convenience factor, like Cobalt legs, but you don't *have* to be able to invis other people... Larrikan's Mask (https://wiki.project1999.com/Larrikan%27s_Mask)/Invis rings work just as well for yourself but have to be recharged. Plus, you should be carrying Ring of shdows (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_shadows) anyway for the instant cast time if you're really playing optimally. But this isn't a discussion about warriors. Just a real example.

JBB is one of the most overrated items in the game. It's sucks so much. But this isn't a discussion about shamans. It's just another example of why you don't need kunark clickies.

The blood ember armor sucks. I'm no worse off if I were to spend an additional tick or two medding than spending the time it takes to equip, stand, and cast the item then put it back into the bags instead of just skipping it all together.

They don't even save the spell gems. It's not like SK has important spells on long cooldown like DA or harvest. What else would you even have up? What else COULD you even have up?

Blood ember = junk.

Don't do drugs.

This is a terrible take, you clearly don't understand the basic math of the game.

[Crede]

The only bad point here is this. Saying nothing matters is pointless in a discussion. People what to know what is best, even if it doesn't matter. You can enjoy min/maxing even if it isn't required for content. I am simply stating the facts of the game so people can make the decision that is best for them. I don't know why you have to keep muddying the facts. If you think I am wrong, actually back it up with math/facts.




The problem here is you don't understand what Min/Max means. Min/Max means you get most benefit in the most situations. Most people aren't Min/Maxing for raiding, because most people don't raid often. For P99, Min/Max is always going to go towards Soloing/Grouping, because that is what most people do most of the time.



How am I incorrect? Saving mana on a mana-bound class is more important than saving HP. That is a simple fact. Sitting and meditating less = more time killing mobs.

When looking at Iksar vs. non-Iksar Warrior/Shaman/Shadowknight, clickies are the primary factor. That is the main trade-off. You can pick a Troll for Warrior/Shaman/Shadowknight, so the Regeneration isn't a factor. The Iksar AC bonus is quite minor on plate wearing classes, so it is a negligible factor. You are basically doing a Greenmist vs. Blood Ember calculation, and Blood Ember wins out.

Iksars are the best raiding race at 60 - Kunark clickies don't change this.
Iksars are the best grouping race at 60 - Kunark clickies don't change this.
Iksars are the best soloing race at 60 - Kunark clickies don't change this.

It's really that simple :)

[Samoht]

Trolls can't wear robes.

[Ripqozko]

DSM is why Vanquish is failing, hope this helps (kunark clickies not needed to know this)

[Jimjam]

Incaracdine bp should be iksar usable. If it don’t chafe sarnak scales then why iksar?

Classic content suggest.

[Crede]

DSM is why Vanquish is failing, hope this helps (kunark clickies not needed to know this)

Lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Iksars are the best raiding race at 60 - Kunark clickies don't change this.
Iksars are the best grouping race at 60 - Kunark clickies don't change this.
Iksars are the best soloing race at 60 - Kunark clickies don't change this.

It's really that simple :)

Please posts facts/evidence to back up your claims.

[Keebz]

Iksar and Troll are both good. The min/max trade off is AC vs Bash/Higher STA. The BE stuff is the tits while leveling, but a novelty at 60.

But as said before, the real problem with Iksar is looking like a clown when you swing your Palladius.

SKs are the worst raiding class in the game.

You know what's worse? Shamans 4-12.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Iksar and Troll are both good. The min/max trade off is AC vs Bash/Higher STA. The BE stuff is the tits while leveling, but a novelty at 60.

But as said before, the real problem with Iksar is looking like a clown when you swing your Palladius.


Greenmist is also a novelty at 60, Epic is simply better, and it's not worth stacking both DoTs. If you're a Troll you get Blood Ember and Epic. If you have raid gear you don't need the 25 MR on Greenmist, you can get alternatives to get 255 MR.


You know what's worse? Shamans 4-12.

Not sure what you mean. Level 4-12?

[Keebz]

Most raids there's an excess of classes like Shaman, Necro, Druid, etc. A redundant caster is much worse than a sub-optimal melee.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most raids there's an excess of classes like Shaman, Necro, Druid, etc. A redundant caster is much worse than a sub-optimal melee.

Yes, both Shamans and Shadowknights are typically swapped out for other characters. Many classes end up this way. However, more Shamans = more people who can slow on hard mobs like Vulak. So there is always a need for multiple Shamans. It's also good to have more Shamans for buff sessions.

Shadowknights have some niche in VP now if you are keyed, but generally speaking Shadowknights are also swapped out most of the time as well. The problem is Shadowknights generally aren't tanking or pulling, and their DPS is minimal. They bring less to the table than any other class sadly. I wish this wasn't the case, I enjoy Shadowknights. I am simply telling people the truth, this has been the raid meta for years.

[Snaggles]

Yet again for pages we go, justifying decisions rather than seeing different flavors (perks) or our creation screen choices.

You can’t compare the epic to the greenmist. One if you buy MQ’s is around 150k. The other is maybe 15k and you can duo the golem fight.

I wouldn’t roll iksar for the 2h swing animation or the exp penalty. Most my 60’s get parked shortly after they ding with some basic gear. So my pick would likely be a DE, Eru, or Human. Fashion, eventually an epic, call it a day.

Anyone who backwards constructs their race pick for BE clicks is really reaching. Just say you like being ____ ; people have been trying to prove what is best for 20+ years. A bunch of garbage clicks on stat-less armor isn’t a game changer. Blood Ember does look cool….I’d wear a set on a fashion alt more than I’d click it.

True end game SK is gear and mana. Some like Keerarae can solo Charok, crypt, and cliff golems. In that regard a troll’s regen is false confidence over having all that extra mana for drain soul casts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yet again for pages we go, justifying decisions rather than seeing different flavors (perks) or our creation screen choices.

You can’t compare the epic to the greenmist. One if you buy MQ’s is around 150k. The other is maybe 15k and you can duo the golem fight.

I wouldn’t roll iksar for the 2h swing animation or the exp penalty. Most my 60’s get parked shortly after they ding with some basic gear. So my pick would likely be a DE, Eru, or Human. Fashion, eventually an epic, call it a day.

Anyone who backwards constructs their race pick for BE clicks is really reaching. Just say you like being ____ ; people have been trying to prove what is best for 20+ years. A bunch of garbage clicks on stat-less armor isn’t a game changer. Blood Ember does look cool….I’d wear a set on a fashion alt more than I’d click it.

True end game SK is gear and mana. Some like Keerarae can solo Charok, crypt, and cliff golems. In that regard a troll’s regen is false confidence over having all that extra mana for drain soul casts.

I am simply posting the facts, it isn't justification or any other ulterior motive you pull out of thin air.

Blood Ember + a good weapon is better than Greenmist. That is a fact.

Epic is better than Greenmist when you get it, and the first fact above means you can skip Greenmist altogether. This is also a fact.

You are correct true endgame SK is gear and mana. Blood Ember = more mana. This is a fact too.

There is no endless circle of trying to prove what is best. It has been proven for 10+ years. People simply have strange ideas about how the game works, and muddy the water with their false assumptions.

[Ripqozko]

948

[Snaggles]

Blood Ember COSTS you peak mana in the example I mentioned. Nobody is killing anything tough with engulfing darkness and boot clicks (or likely mediocre without being frustrated). You can’t even fear it…it’s tap-quest.

Saying “it’s a fact” doesn’t make it a fact. Words like “better” mean very little. Context is everything.

Greenmist has attributes for a good tank weapons in the game. HP, STR and AC Tap. Aggro proc (btw Disease Cloud was nerfed bad). 25Mr. Tolerable ratio. It’s situational but still has its place and is easy to get. If you raid use a flurry, sev shield, or something like an Aary. If not go loot an Ashenbone in Kithicor.

I see a lot of Iksars use it for tanking who also have the epic and ToV stuff. So they are wrong too if your facts are literally such. I’ll tell them about the free lvl 22 and 30 spells they are missing out on.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Blood Ember COSTS you peak mana in the example I mentioned. Nobody is killing anything tough with engulfing darkness and boot clicks (or likely mediocre without being frustrated). You can’t even fear it…it’s tap-quest.

Blood Ember doesn't cost you mana, that doesn't make sense.

Here is a simple example. Blood Ember Greaves save you 60 mana per FD. When singling out a mob, most of the time you don't need to use Death's Peace or spell FD. If you need to FD 20 times per hour to single out mobs, that is already the equivalent of a Flowing Thought II item.

If you are pairing Gloves with that, you have 2x Flowing Thought II items. Saving 2400 mana per hour means 12 less minutes of sitting and meditating. I use Blood Ember Gloves/Greaves all the time. Boots are more situational, but they still save me mana after the initial fear on living mobs.

Even when killing hard, unfearable mobs, those mobs are not always alone. You need to spend mana to split the mobs.

If you are talking about killing single, unfearable mobs like Cliff Golems, Blood Ember Greaves are still great mana savers. You can FD to let your pet take some damage and come back up without spending mana. You're not going to use Greenmist on Cliff Golems. The DPS loss is not worth the DoT, and typically you want Epic for Cliff Golems anyway since it is simply better.

[Snaggles]

Blood Ember doesn't cost you mana, that doesn't make sense.


The difference between a set of Skyshrine armor and Blood Ember is like 330 peak mana (full before the fight). Not to mention other stats. That’s almost 1.5 drain souls. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The difference between a set of Skyshrine armor and Blood Ember is like 330 peak mana (full before the fight). Not to mention other stats. That’s almost 1.5 drain souls. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

You don't need to constantly wear the Blood Ember. You can just use that 330 mana to summon your pet, and then you'll never be at max mana again. If your constantly fighting (which is optimal), you aren't going to ever get that 330 mana back. So better mana management/regen via Clickies and Flowing Thought items is giving you way more mana in the long run.

Again, if you use FD/Snare 20 times per hour to split mobs, you are already saving 2400 mana. That's much bigger than 330 mana. That's 10 Drain Souls.

[Ripqozko]

You will never get DSM to change his mind or see your side, the next 10 pages of back and forth will be pointless hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You will never get DSM to change his mind or see your side, the next 10 pages of back and forth will be pointless hope that helps.

You should be saying this to the other people in this thread. Sorry you are wrong again. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

You should be saying this to the other people in this thread. Sorry you are wrong again. Hope this helps.

You are always trying to win, sorry you don’t see your issues. Vanquish in a nutshell.

[Jimjam]

Yes, both Shamans and Shadowknights are typically swapped out for other characters. Many classes end up this way. However, more Shamans = more people who can slow on hard mobs like Vulak. So there is always a need for multiple Shamans. It's also good to have more Shamans for buff sessions.

Shadowknights have some niche in VP now if you are keyed, but generally speaking Shadowknights are also swapped out most of the time as well. The problem is Shadowknights generally aren't tanking or pulling, and their DPS is minimal. They bring less to the table than any other class sadly. I wish this wasn't the case, I enjoy Shadowknights. I am simply telling people the truth, this has been the raid meta for years.

But you are the only shaman who shows up for buff sessions. All the others only turn up to collect dkp or worse cast unwanted torpors and collect dkp ;)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are always trying to win, sorry you don’t see your issues. Vanquish in a nutshell.

I am posting the facts, not trying to win. If you think you have better facts, please post them so we can discuss it. I simply don't want players to get confused by people claiming they know something, but refuse to back up their point.

Sorry you can't tell the difference. Hope this helps.

But you are the only shaman who shows up for buff sessions. All the others only turn up to collect dkp or worse cast unwanted torpors and collect dkp ;)

Lol true, there are a lot of lazy players out there. You can't blame that on the class though:D

[Jobaber]

The coolest thing I could ever imagine would be a giant guild of only SKs & clerics.

[Snaggles]

You will never get DSM to change his mind or see your side, the next 10 pages of back and forth will be pointless hope that helps.

I’ve said it many times and keep getting dragged back in.
The intervention is appreciated. What number are we up to?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve said it many times and keep getting dragged back in.
The intervention is appreciated. What number are we up to?

There is no intervention necessary. I post facts that are easily provable. If you want to rebut them, bring better facts. So far you haven't. I am not sure why you have to insist you are correct simply because you say so.


Saying “it’s a fact” doesn’t make it a fact. Words like “better” mean very little. Context is everything.

Greenmist has attributes for a good tank weapons in the game. HP, STR and AC Tap. Aggro proc (btw Disease Cloud was nerfed bad). 25Mr. Tolerable ratio. It’s situational but still has its place and is easy to get. If you raid use a flurry, sev shield, or something like an Aary. If not go loot an Ashenbone in Kithicor.

I see a lot of Iksars use it for tanking who also have the epic and ToV stuff. So they are wrong too if your facts are literally such. I’ll tell them about the free lvl 22 and 30 spells they are missing out on.

You are correct, simply saying something is a fact doesn't make it so. What makes it a fact is the math that shows you precisely what you get with Greenmist vs. Blood Ember. Saving potentially thousands of mana per hour is going to be better than Greenmist, because Shadowknights are typically mana bound, not HP bound. Greenmist isn't special in terms of it's ratio, and in most situations it's stats aren't going to drastically change an encounter.

I never said you can't tank stuff with Greenmist. Nor did I say you shouldn't get Greenmist if you are an Iksar. I am simply pointing out to new players that being an Iksar is generally the worse option, because Blood Ember is factually better than Greenmist in most situations.

Let's assume Greenmist is the best raid tank weapon in the game. That still doesn't matter, because Shadowknights do very little tanking in raids generally speaking. Unless you are one of the very few players who really want to make a hardcore raiding Shadowknight, it isn't worth rolling Iksar to get Greenmist for that specific purpose. Blood Ember is going to help you more in day-to-day gameplay sessions. If the majority of the server population raided instead of soloed/grouped, I would give different advice.

[Keebz]

As someone with a 60 SK who raids and solos, let me say Greenmist vs BE is completely irrelevant. No idea why DSM is going on and on about it. There's a lot of time to chat on the forums when you play a buff bot I guess.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As someone with a 60 SK who raids and solos, let me say Greenmist vs BE is completely irrelevant. No idea why DSM is going on and on about it. There's a lot of time to chat on the forums when you play a buff bot I guess.

Nobody said Blood Ember or Greenmist is required to be an SK. We are talking about whats better, for people who want to know. Not sure what is so hard to understand.

[Crede]

Nobody said Blood Ember or Greenmist is required to be an SK. We are talking about whats better, for people who want to know. Not sure what is so hard to understand.

You said iksars make bad sks. But your first post in this thread was literally recommending iksars as an sk race. I don’t even think you know what point you’re trying to prove anymore.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said iksars make bad sks. But your first post in this thread was literally recommending iksars as an sk race. I don’t even think you know what point you’re trying to prove anymore.

I am not trying to prove anything. I am posting facts so OP and other readers have the proper information, and can make their own decisions.

Iksars are generally one of the worst SK races. I didn't make the game, I am just stating the facts. I never said you shouldn't play an Iksar, either.

[Crede]

I am not trying to prove anything. I am posting facts so OP and other readers have the proper information, and can make their own decisions.

Iksars are generally one of the worst SK races. I didn't make the game, I am just stating the facts.

Except you’re directly contradicting what you post. So I think at this point you should stop posting and let people decide for themselves.

Thanks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Except you’re directly contradicting what you post. So I think at this point you should stop posting and let people decide for themselves.

Thanks.

I did not, you can go back and read my original post. You are just trying to "gotcha" me because you don't actually have any evidence to back up your claims. Its a poor attempt.

If you read my post you would see I am talking about regeneration, which both Trolls and Iksars have. Troll is the better race, but some people prefer playing Iksar because not everybody likes Trolls. That doesn't mean Iksars are factually one of the better SK races.

[Crede]

I did not, you can go back and read my original post. You are just trying to "gotcha" me because you don't actually have any evidence to back up your claims. It’s a poor attempt.

You recommended iksars for their regen. Then you said iksar sks are bad. You’re in denial.

You’re done.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You recommended iksars for their regen. Then you said iksar sks are bad. You’re in denial.

You’re done.

Not in denial at all. You simply can't understand that there are multiple factors when considering race. Again, this is a very bad "gotcha" attempt because you can't actually back up your points.

I can recommend Iksars to people who don't want to play Trolls if you still want regeneration. That doesn't make Iksars factually better, just better for that specific person.

[Duik]

By the time someone who actually wants to decide if item A is better with race B reads this, they would be lvl 46 if they just played ANY race with almost any non shit weapon/armor/item combo.
You have just wasted you alls time.
I hope this helps.

[Crede]

Not in denial at all. You simply can't understand that there are multiple factors when considering race. Again, this is a very bad "gotcha" attempt because you can't actually back up your points.

I can recommend Iksars to people who don't want to play Trolls if you still want regeneration. That doesn't make Iksars factually better, just better for that specific person.

Stop changing the facts. You went from “go trolls or iksar” to “iksars are bad”. It’s really pathetic watching you helplessly cling onto your points which you can’t even keep straight.

Give it up, you lost.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It seems like people don't understand the difference between objectively better, and subjectively better.

There is objectively a best and worst race for each class. Iksars are objectively low on the totem pole for SKs due to their inability to use Blood Ember and lack of Slam.

That being said, if you hate the look of Trolls, AND want racial regeneration, then Iksar is subjectively the better choice for you. That doesn't change the fact that Iksars are low on the totem pole objectively, it simply makes Iksars subjectively better for you.

I think people are mixing these two up, and getting offended.

People also seem to assume that because I point out some races are objectively better than others, that means I am incapable of telling people to play an objectively worse race. This is simply not true. If you are unwilling to play a troll for fashion purposes, I am not going to force you to roll troll.

[Danth]

Shamwowi, you have numerous 60 Shadowknights, myself included, telling you the blood ember clicks aren't a big deal at 60. Don't write off that collectively huge amount of experience. Your own SK is not 60. You get more mileage out of blood ember when you're grinding low blues or high greens. It doesn't get used so often later on, although I've heard of the clicks being used for the rare West Wastes dragon melee solo.

I don't much care about raid gear on this class. Main reason people put raid gear on a hybrid melee is so they can go solo stuff they out-gear. Whoop-de-do (rolleyes emote). That does not impress me any more than a level sixty player beating up blackburrow. That being said, not everyone is so meek as to shelve his own character in favor of a guild bot when demanded by Almighty Guildleader. Someone asks me to do that, I'll tell him to shove it. So high-end min-maxing has some relevance, albeit diminished compared to the raid-centric classes.

Iksars are objectively better than the non-monster race shadowknights at 60. Racial regeneration and AC bonus outweigh a handful of click items that don't get used all that much. As a general rule of thumb SK races can be classed into monster races (slower leveling, but stronger overall) and non-monster races (no experience penalty, but not as many bonuses). I like trolls a bit better than iksars, but it's close.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shamwowi, you have numerous 60 Shadowknights, myself included, telling you the blood ember clicks aren't a big deal at 60. Don't write off that collectively huge amount of experience. Your own SK is not 60. You get more mileage out of blood ember when you're grinding low blues or high greens. It doesn't get used so often later on, although I've heard of the clicks being used for the rare West Wastes dragon melee solo.

I don't much care about raid gear on this class. Main reason people put raid gear on a hybrid melee is so they can go solo stuff they out-gear. Whoop-de-do (rolleyes emote). That does not impress me any more than a level sixty player beating up blackburrow. That being said, not everyone is so meek as to shelve his own character in favor of a guild bot when demanded by Almighty Guildleader. Someone asks me to do that, I'll tell him to shove it. So high-end min-maxing has some relevance, albeit diminished compared to the raid-centric classes.

Iksars are objectively better than the non-monster race shadowknights at 60. Racial regeneration and AC bonus outweigh a handful of click items that don't get used all that much. As a general rule of thumb SK races can be classed into monster races (slower leveling, but stronger overall) and non-monster races (no experience penalty, but not as many bonuses). I like trolls a bit better than iksars, but it's close.

Danth

Unfortunately experience does not mean you are correct. Mathematically speaking Greenmist is inferior to Blood Ember. I would be happy to see counter data, but saying "I am right because I am level 60" is not a valid argument. Leveling to 58 has given me a pretty good idea of the class. Two more levels are not going to give me some massive revelation. I know how hard mobs work as well, because I have years of experience playing around with my 60 Shaman.

You will do better as a Troll with Blood Ember at level 60 as opposed to an Iksar with Greenmist. The extra AC bonus is not saving you thousands of mana, nor is the Greenmist proc/stats.

To me it seems like a lot of people are trying to use the example of SK's soloing level 55+ mobs as a reason for why Blood Ember is bad. The strange thing about this argument is an SK soloing Cliff Golems is already going to be well geared. You will probably have Epic, Eyepatch, and raid gear. Greenmist is irrelevant in this case, because you have Epic, which is objectively better. Also, not all 55+ mobs are spawned in a way that you get no adds. Even at level 60 you still need to split mobs with Snare/FD to get to your intended target. Saving mana during that process means you have more mana for the real fight.

I see people saying they don't use JBB at 60 or think it's a bad item in this thread and others (not saying you specifically). This screams that people have serious misconceptions about clickies in general. Honestly I used to think the same way on live. I thought clickies were bad because they took longer to cast than regular spells. So I understand the confusion, but it isn't correct.

I also disagree that Iksars are better than Humans/Dark Elves, etc. Mana is the bottleneck on Shadowknights. I would rather save thousands of mana over thousands of HP, because mana can only be quickly regenerated while sitting. This means that any meditation breaks are periods in which you cannot fight. Because Shadowknights use fear kiting in a lot of situations, mana tends to be the problem, not HP. If you want to use the example of fighting Cliff Golems, racial regeneration is not required to fight those either. Would HP Regeneration be better than Blood Ember when it comes to Cliff Golems? Sure. But if you really just wanted to make your Shadowknight as overpowered as possible for soloing hard mobs, you should have picked a Troll anyway, because they are just better than Iksar.

[Danth]

What pieces of Blood Ember do you expect to be using? Your experience bar is maxxed, you're in a tough area, you aren't pulling forty trash greenies an hour.

--You aren't using the fear click for anything serious because most stuff is outright fear immune (level) or resists too often. It might get used for the oddball trophy solo.

--BP has a direct and much cheaper alternative (Stave of Shielding) so it's totally irrelevant.

--Legs are a mana-saver when you're bottom-feeding greens, but not used for hard stuff. Have fun clicking those things when you're trying to split Bledrek out of the 6-room, or splitting a 4-pull of DN ratmen.

--Gloves are the best of the bunch and get some use, albeit mostly for WW dragons where I feign out the faction hit and Clinging doesn't last long enough. One item does not make or break a character.

Note that I did not mention Greenmist in my previous post. It's an alright item but not all that important in and of itself. AC bonus would be awfully nice when trying to tank an unslowed thing hitting for 400's while slow resists half a dozen times in a row, a damn sight better than anything a human or dark elf is bringing to that fight.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What pieces of Blood Ember do you expect to be using? Your experience bar is maxxed, you're in a tough area, you aren't pulling forty trash greenies an hour.

--You aren't using the fear click for anything serious because most stuff is outright fear immune (level) or resists too often. It might get used for the oddball trophy solo.

--BP has a direct and much cheaper alternative (Stave of Shielding) so it's totally irrelevant.

--Legs are a mana-saver when you're bottom-feeding greens, but not used for hard stuff. Have fun clicking those things when you're trying to split Bledrek out of the 6-room, or splitting a 4-pull of DN ratmen.

--Gloves are the best of the bunch and get some use, albeit mostly for WW dragons where I feign out the faction hit and Clinging doesn't last long enough. One item does not make or break a character.

Note that I did not mention Greenmist in my previous post. It's an alright item but not all that important in and of itself. AC bonus would be awfully nice when trying to tank an unslowed thing hitting for 400's while slow resists half a dozen times in a row, a damn sight better than anything a human or dark elf is bringing to that fight.

Danth

Gloves/Pants are the main mana savers. As you say the Boots are more situational, and BP isn't unique.

Anytime you need to split mobs (regardless of your level), you are saving 120 mana per mob. This isn't including failed attempts. I have split plenty of difficult camps using the clickies, it really isn't that much harder than spells. Obviously if I need to use a faster FD due to screwing up or bad luck, I'll use my spell FD. But if you have practiced a camp, you can use the clickies quite often instead of the spells. If you use the Pants/Gloves 20 times in an hour to split camps, that's 2400 mana saved right there.

As I said before, if you built your character specifically just to fight hard mobs, going Iksar is a bad idea anyway. You might as well go Troll because they are just better than Iksars in every way. The AC bonus is better on Necromancers/Monks who don't get a lot of worn AC from items. Tank classes already have a much easier time hitting soft cap due to their items having much higher AC values.

[Duik]

Danth, are you a lisping dancer?
Is it just me? I hear Imma Dan(th)cer in my head.
Shd/Ogr blah War/Trl double blah etc. You realise OP and anyone else interested at the start of thread are gone and just a few return for the lolocaustic Phorum-Inphection here.
Glad i got the shots.

[Saisu]

Danth, great info man. Thanks for adding your voice.

[Duik]

Just so we know, just cause dsm posts last, dont make him right.
That, i believe is the single best way to give Ripgozko a rest from counting.

[Ripqozko]

Just so we know, just cause dsm posts last, dont make him right.
That, i believe is the single best way to give Ripgozko a rest from counting.

hes posting too much for me to even keep up counting

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just so we know, just cause dsm posts last, dont make him right.

I 100% agree. It doesn't make me right. Nor does it make anybody else right.

If you want to be right, post evidence to counter mine. Unfortunately people often simply take the "I am right, you are wrong" route.

hes posting too much for me to even keep up counting

I see you have shown you cannot actually count down from 1000. I was hoping to see that proven out.

[Ripqozko]

I 100% agree. It doesn't make me right. Nor does it make anybody else right.

If you want to be right, post evidence to counter mine. Unfortunately people often simply take the "I am right, you are wrong" route.



I see you have shown you cannot actually count down from 1000. I was hoping to see that proven out.

considering how many different threads you have said the same thing on, we are probably at 1 now anyways. hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

considering how many different threads you have said the same thing on, we are probably at 1 now anyways. hope that helps.

You are missing at least 800 numbers. Hopes this helps you learn to count.

[Ripqozko]

You are missing at least 800 numbers. Hopes this helps you learn to count.

whenever you keep responding, itll get there, hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

whenever you keep responding, itll get there, hope that helps.

Glad to hear I'm helping you learn to count. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

you just cant help but have the last word, even when you are wrong

[DeathsSilkyMist]

you just cant help but have the last word, even when you are wrong

If you think I am wrong, please show why. I am sorry, but saying "You are wrong" is not an argument. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

watch youll respond to this absolutely nothing post

[Karanis]

20777

[Duik]

That looks like much too much twork.

[Danth]

If you think I am wrong, please show why.

I did, when I told you that stuff mostly collects dust in the bags when you're in tougher areas. You didn't listen and not-so-subtly implied you think I don't know what I'm doing.

Let's give ourselves a common frame of reference: Raiding doesn't matter overmuch on a hybrid because a) raiding is inherently easy anyway due to zerg numbers, and b) hybrids are not ideal raiders regardless. Solo doesn't matter overmuch on a melee in this game because if you want to primarily solo, you're on a caster. So let's talk duo/trio, the kind of smallman stuff where hybrids are at their best.

Where are you hanging out with that type of duo or trio? What is your specific composition?

Sebilite Juggernauts
Velketor castle
Khelkor Icepaw
Broodmother
Guardian Wurms
Chardok named
Spore King
DN ratmen (chetari)
DN ratmen (pebala)
Hateplane
Skyshrine upper floors
Kael Drakkel arena
Charasis south
Charasis east
Siren's Grotto
Hole undead tower
Mischief

That's a fair starter list for the types of places I'm thinking of. There are a few areas on that list where the Blood Ember clicks make things faster. More often you'll have a certain amount of downtime between rounds regardless. There are many places on that list where another ~40 AC would be thoroughly welcome.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did, when I told you that stuff mostly collects dust in the bags when you're in tougher areas. You didn't listen and not-so-subtly implied you think I don't know what I'm doing.

Let's give ourselves a common frame of reference: Raiding doesn't matter overmuch on a hybrid because a) raiding is inherently easy anyway due to zerg numbers, and b) hybrids are not ideal raiders regardless. Solo doesn't matter overmuch on a melee in this game because if you want to primarily solo, you're on a caster. So let's talk duo/trio, the kind of smallman stuff where hybrids are at their best.

Where are you hanging out with that type of duo or trio? What is your specific composition?

Sebilite Juggernauts
Velketor castle
Khelkor Icepaw
Broodmother
Guardian Wurms
Chardok named
Spore King
DN ratmen (chetari)
DN ratmen (pebala)
Hateplane
Skyshrine upper floors
Kael Drakkel arena
Charasis south
Charasis east
Siren's Grotto
Hole undead tower
Mischief

That's a fair starter list for the types of places I'm thinking of. There are a few areas on that list where the Blood Ember clicks make things faster. More often you'll have a certain amount of downtime between rounds regardless. There are many places on that list where another ~40 AC would be thoroughly welcome.

I wasn't trying to imply you don't know what you are doing. I said "I am level 60" isn't an argument, nor is "other people agree, therefore I am right". Also, assuming a level 58 doesn't understand the class is another non argument. Shadowknights aren't like Shamans, they don't dramatically change at 60.

Just because you don't use the clickies, that doesn't mean they are worse than Greenmist. That is the discussion. You can choose to play without the clickies and do just fine. I never said you can't play that way. But you are not taking advantage of them, which is costing you mana. For your playstyle it may not matter. Again, completely fine.

That doesn't change the fact the Blood Ember is better than Greenmist, unless you can show evidence to counter my points. If "I don't use it, therefore its bad" is a valid argument, then I could say the same thing for Greenmist:D

[greatdane]

It is pretty nice to have like 100ish MR for everyday gameplay, especially a tank. In many dungeons, almost half the mobs you fight will be casters. Getting rooted, snared, slowed and whatnot is really uncool, and 100 MR is where you'll usually resist these from blue mobs.

[pasi]

Some inane ramblings from someone who hasn't been much involved in EQEMu for 15 years and hasn't played much P99 in 10+ years either. Proceed with caution:


From a historical perspective, the consensus (on TSW and SK.org) from 2000 to 2009 was that the iksar AC bonus did nothing – which may or may not have been a misinterpretation of what an EQdev said. Circa 2003-2004, Rashere had mentioned the Iksar AC bonus was for displayed AC only. This was prompted from parses showing the Iksar bonus not having any discernable effect. I think the community had taken “Displayed AC only” to mean it does nothing for RealAC. In 2009, someone went through the trouble of parsing a 51 DE SK vs a 51 Iksar SK with the same testcopy: http://eqshadowknight.net/archive/index.php/t-5360.html

While not a major difference, at low levels of gear (i.e. before softcap) – there was a discernable difference. Obviously, this was 2009 as opposed to in-era, but that’s really the only parse I am aware of that actually demonstrated benefit from the iksar AC bonus. Of course, it was for lower levels (the iksar bonus caps at 35, so this bonus relatively declines at higher levels) and at low levels of gear.
Fortunately, in 2014 Dzarn had posted the code for AC. See: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/ac-vs-acv2.210028/#post-3078126

For starters, racial and class bonuses are applied at step 8 in the Display AC calculation. For brevity’s sake, it means that the 35 AC Iksar bonus does not receive the 4/3 multiplier that Item AC receives. So, right off the bat this is equivalent to 26 non-shield AC.

Up until late Velious on live, AC was hardcapped at 289. Late in Velious, a softcap was implemented for overcap returns for melee. Casters were still hardcapped. AC above 289 was given a minimal return. There’s no well-documented number in the Prathun statement detailing this, but from my years of doing this shit, 5% seems to be the figure thrown around for Pre-Luclin. Following the Luclin mitigation/avoidance patch, these AC Overcap returns increased to 16.7% for Knights. Following the PoP patch, that rises to 25%. Hard caps also rising. Of course the 16.7% and 25% are EQEMU community’s best estimate from what was known.

Putting it all together. In late Velious, the Iksar AC bonus for SK above 289 AC would be 0.05 * 26 = 1 real AC. In SOL, that is 0.167 * 26 = 4 real AC. In POP, that is 0.25 * 26 = 6 real AC.

As an aside, the usual disclaimer that all this is all for EQLive circa that era. Project1999 code may or may not deviate from the above.

Shadowknights are arguably the worst class in the game from Kunark until Omens of War at least. There's not much sense in optimizing 1-2%. Play whatever race looks the best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah the 289 ac soft cap is the main reason why the Iksar AC Bonus isn't a huge deal on plate wearing classes (Warrior/Shadowknight/Shaman). My Shadowknight isn't AC focused (quite a few pieces are lower than what they should be for a plate wearing class), and he is sitting at 283 worn AC. If I used a higher AC belt like Spider Fur Belt and Barbed Dragonscale Pauldrons I would be over the ac softcap. It just isn't that difficult to get to the ac soft cap due to plate having a high average AC. For Monks and Necromancers the Iksar AC Bonus is better, because their worn armor has a much lower AC average.

I always find it strange that people seem to think that saying "race A is better than race B" is somehow saying "don't play race B ever". I don't think anybody has ever said that, so I don't know why people get so upset. There are plenty of people who play a race for fashion quest, and they do just fine.

All you need to do is tell people what is objectively better/worse, and let them factor that into their decision when making a new character. I don't know why that is so hard on these forums.

If you think some information is wrong factually/mathematically, bring facts and math to back up your point.

[Jimjam]

There is a difference between saying ‘race b isn’t as good’ and ‘race b is bad’.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is a difference between saying ‘race b isn’t as good’ and ‘race b is bad’.

I don't mean "bad" as in unplayable, it just means objectively worse than another race.

I will happily change my vocabulary to whatever word people feel doesn't insult their favorite race hehe. I don't assume "bad" means unplayable, but maybe that is just me. It's just faster to type "bad" as opposed to "slightly worse than other races". People complain about my verbosity, and then ask for it.

If I say "race A is worse than race B" (terse), people I guess assume "worse" means utter trash. That is probably people just assuming the worst in others, that does happen here quite frequently.

If I say "race A has these benefits, but are not quite as good as race B, and here is why..." (verbose), people just skim what I said and again just assume the worst.

So what should we do to make people properly understand that there are objectively better and worse races, but the differences aren't vast? I've said that before, and people still assume the worst lol.

[zati]

AC is king. Race don't matter, Regen don't matter, FSI don't matter. Those Won't make or break your tanking/pulling/raiding/soloing abilities at 60.. Ac/int/mana/ top 3 priorities for sk at 60.. left out stamina and HP cause nearly all raid gear/high end loot already has them... you can heal HP with worts but you can't increase mana faster than medding or FT2. Time is Mana. Mana is XP. Xp is Time

Leveling is a different story..

Levels 1-9 You have no spells therefor no need for mana. High dmg weapon / HP regen(fungi) / Max HP are top 3 priorities which is the same for most melee classes. a https://wiki.project1999.com/Runed_Oak_Bow is stronger than a fungi lv 1-5. You will one shot rats/bats in WFP and never get hit. Zero downtime. Prolly 5 shots for black bears. When I made my SK in 2015 I had zero access to all these items. Just bronze and https://wiki.project1999.com/Firerune_Brand I bought for 50p after selling 3-5 HQ bear pelts

Levels 9-45 Different advantages for each race. One might have more mana(erudite/DE) other more HP(ogre/troll) regen(Iksar/troll). For the most part you will still use spook the dead/darkness to fear kite undead in zones you can find safe areas to do so.... But really 90% of the time you'll have to face tank. Context matters are you gonna Solo or group? Unless you are 100% soloing these levels you'll always have a healer with you in a group or some sort of support.. Atleast I did befallen>Unrest>Guk>Sol.b etc I always had a group wit a healer in it. Then you need less hp and more ac/int/clickies to pull mobs faster. SK can't pull aggro or pull mobs without mana = no XP. I think this is where BE shines, but it definitely isn't 100% necessary..make your cleric or druid root mobs on incoming.. less mana used.

Levels 45-60 there's really only a few places SK can solo..regardless of gear. Unless you are a super twink or deleveled or access to being fully buffed by friends 24/7.. you'll be fear kiting undead in KC,HS,Trakanons teeth, Gukbottom(Yes u can hit lv 60 here) or even using normal Fear in velks/hole/etc...BE gloves is probably the only piece I still carry around with me and has saved me from multiple wipes. In the long run when soloing these will make you level faster than an Iksar doing the same. 60 mana to snare a mob 2-3 times until it dies. Again context matters .. How many mobs are available? If you only got 4 mobs - 5mobs to clear before respawns then BE gloves won't mean anything. You are limited by the camp not Mana or clickies. If you are in a camp you can clear 10+ mobs before respawns; Yes having free snares is the way to go.

If I could redo it I'd put all my starting points into INT then Sta.. as a DE

[DeathsSilkyMist]

but you can't increase mana faster than medding or FT2. Time is Mana. Mana is XP.


You can increase mana faster than medding or FT2. You do that by not spending mana in the first place. That is what clickies allow you to do. You can save thousands of mana per hour using clickies, which is the equivalent of having extra mana regeneration and casting those spells instead.

That is why Blood Ember is typically better than Greenmist. Mana is the bottleneck for Shadowknights, as your post suggests, and clickies are saving you mana.

There are people who choose not to use Blood Ember clickies for whatever reason, and that is perfectly fine. You aren't required to play the game as optimally as possible to have fun or make progress.

I am simply pointing out that clickies ARE the equivalent to FT items. Fungi Staff, as an example, is basically an FT2 item for Shamans because it saves 1200 mana per hour on casting Regeneration.

[Jimjam]

Personally I like eruds cos they can fashion quest in flayed skin and loot reclaim energy at low levels. I put 10 str 5 agi 5 dex cos i believe (no evidence) that skill ups are much slower below 75 dex (eqemu code doesn’t back this up - i think it is a custom correction implemented by p99 - one day I may test it).

In the hey day of dwerium trio on live i had a ds/regen build erud SK that could solo naggy… this may have biased me toward them.

My first toon on p99 was a troll sk though - their stats/regen felt like it made up for gear gap as an impoverished newb (in those days guk was well farmed and you’d receive many gifts xping in the area) … my trio partners were enc/druid and i ended up rerolling halfling warrior cos they complained how much xp slowed down with fatty hybrid tank compared to solo.

[Snaggles]

I did two Magelos with very casual gear. I expect the total of this to be less than 100k. The mask of the shadows on the dark elf is redundant UV but I wanted it to be consistent. It’s not a bad set for any SK shopping in the tunnel.


https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight2

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight


There are intensive benefits to each race; with varying degrees of importance depending on how you PERSONALLY weigh these:

* Levelling speed (0-20% xp penalty)
* Mana pool (at least an extra drain soul for smalls)
* HP pool (per the above gearset only will cap with riotous health)
* Strength or attack cap (with this mediocre tank gear none will cap with Focus of Spirit but some FAR under cap)
* Intrinsic shrink (or it’s needed)
* Regen or no regen(+8hp standing)
* 2H slam/bash (fatties only, or w/Epic)
* Blood Ember Clicks (all but Iksar)
* Greenmist and Stone of Morid (Iksar only)
* Ashenbone Shield (small races only)
* Frostreaver (Human,Ogre, Troll, Iksar only)
* Faction differences
* Iksar 2hs swing animation is weird
* Frontal Bash Immunity (reduces chance of a slight stun/interupt, Ogres only)
* Iksar AC Bonus (I understand this is maybe 20 displayed difference with the same gear, TBD)

I strongly believe knights tanking stuff is a thing at 60. I do all the time without BiS and with enough healing and the proper gear many raid named targets can be. More casual stuff (non raid named) is frequently and preferably knight tanked. After the 2h change knights do solid raid dps with the right buffs and weapons so again play what you want and if you have a more ideal class for the encounter play that instead. Common sense really.

With quality raid gear (aka not the Magelo links) capping stamina and strength is very possible for smalls. 2h bash is not a notable DPS increase on a lvl 70 target (it’s as stupid as 8hp regen). If anything more frail sk’s and pallies have a leg up with a larger manapool. If they can tap they can live longer through AoE’s without needing heals.

Casual players are going to struggle in some ways and breeze in others. They will fit better in some easy zones with really high ZEM’s (Sol A, HK). They will likely level faster even without some of the perks of the “monster races” because you have to kill at least 20% faster with an Iksar or Troll to match a non-XP penalize. Often when it really matters in the high 50’s you are killing about or two npcs every 6-12 minutes which you can easily recover mana and health wise by sitting and waiting. Casual raiders who obsess with capping stats will struggle…you can get a small to 205 stamina but often your Str will lag behind in the mid 100’s (asking a sham for Furious Strength is a pain for everyone so you likely will just be doing less dps most the time).

The true best perk is what you look like. If you like it, you will likely enjoy it more with quality gear. If you hate it at level 55 shroud of undeath will let you be a skeleton. Losing 2h bash but giving some faction perks and fix the 2hs Iksar swing animation. That said, if you are picking a race for “superiority” over just fun or personal aesthetics you are have caught a terminal case of edgelord’itus. Consider not playing a knight because every time a warrior is picked to tank the big shiny mob or a real dps smokes you, you will probably fall into a dark sad place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That said, if you are picking a race for “superiority” over just fun or personal aesthetics you are have caught a terminal case of edgelord’itus. Consider not playing a knight because every time a warrior is picked to tank the big shiny mob or a real dps smokes you, you will probably fall into a dark sad place.

There are three kinds of players:

1. Fashion Questers
2. Min/Maxers
3. People who just play

There is nothing wrong with any kind of player. Let people have fun as they wish. Just give people objectively correct information on the game and let them decide how they want to play. There's no reason to bash one type of player. I enjoy playing Troll for both fashion and Min/Max purposes. Trolls have the best animation set in the game, and great armor. They also happen to be the Min/Max choice for a solo focused Shadowknight.

[Snaggles]

If you are a true minmaxer consider hitting 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you are a true minmaxer consider hitting 60.

I'll hit 60 when I feel like it. I am 60% of the way through 58 atm, so I am getting there:)

[Encroaching Death]

I'm actually taking my sweet time to level to 60 on my latest alt.

Everytime I hit 60 on a character I instantly lose interest, like when a woman tells you that she loves you.

[Ripqozko]

Only thing he min maxes is post count

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Only thing he min maxes is post count

Most of your posts are just numbers or one sentence "trolls" or "jokes" that nobody laughs at.

You are min/maxing your post count much harder at the moment:)

[Ripqozko]

Most of your posts are just numbers or one sentence "trolls" or "jokes" that nobody laughs at.

You are min/maxing your post count much harder at the moment:)

If you were gonna min max you would of done the content when it was progression, how many of the first 60 vulaks did you assist in

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you were gonna min max you would of done the content when it was progression, how many of the first 60 vulaks did you assist in

Min/Max has nothing to do with server firsts, or bottom tier Warder loot. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

Min/Max has nothing to do with server firsts, or bottom tier Warder loot. Hope this helps.

Sorry you didn't do anything of note, hope that helps, I'm sure your fsi helped that tho

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry you didn't do anything of note, hope that helps, I'm sure your fsi helped that tho

Why are you still posting here if you think the game is done? Move on:)

[Ripqozko]

Why are you still posting here if you think the game is done? Move on:)

Consider doing things when it matters

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Consider doing things when it matters

Take your own advice then. Clearly P99 is done. You can stop posting here now.

[Ripqozko]

Take your own advice then. Clearly P99 is done. You can stop posting here now.

Sorry you started 8 years late

[Toxigen]

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry you started 8 years late

Clearly you don't believe we are 8 years too late, or you would have stopped posting 8 years ago.

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Yeah Ripqozko is malding right now.

[Crede]

There are three kinds of players:

1. Fashion Questers
2. Min/Maxers
3. People who just play

There is nothing wrong with any kind of player. Let people have fun as they wish. Just give people objectively correct information on the game and let them decide how they want to play. There's no reason to bash one type of player. I enjoy playing Troll for both fashion and Min/Max purposes. Trolls have the best animation set in the game, and great armor. They also happen to be the Min/Max choice for a solo focused Shadowknight.

Trolls 2hb/2h pierce animation is awful. But otherwise I agree from a leveling perspective as BE saved a ton of mana. At 60 though, it’s iksar for ac and superior resists. If you’re attempting crazy solo grind stuff at 60 on a sk, then you should probably just switch to a more powerful solo class, similar to how you would switch to a better raid class.

[Toxigen]

Trolls 2hb/2h pierce animation is awful. But otherwise I agree from a leveling perspective as BE saved a ton of mana. At 60 though, it’s iksar for ac and superior resists. If you’re attempting crazy solo grind stuff at 60 on a sk, then you should probably just switch to a more powerful solo class, similar to how you would switch to a better raid class.

so instead of playing SK just switch to a different class

[Crede]

so instead of playing SK just switch to a different class

At 60 pretty much yea, but leveling sks are fun and I’ve Done 4 of them. Planning to do a big int erudite sk build next.

[Toxigen]

note that i dont have a SK in my stable

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you’re attempting crazy solo grind stuff at 60 on a sk, then you should probably just switch to a more powerful solo class, similar to how you would switch to a better raid class.

I do agree, generally speaking people who want to level an SK to 60 and then do solo challenge stuff or raid a ton are pretty rare to begin with. One of the main benefits an SK has is Fear Kiting. If you are at a point where everything you fight is 55+, you should be playing a different class. Paladin or Monk would fill the role better.

[Jimjam]

I do agree, generally speaking people who want to level an SK to 60 and then do solo challenge stuff or raid a ton are pretty rare to begin with. One of the main benefits an SK has is Fear Kiting. If you are at a point where everything you fight is 55+, you should be playing a different class. Paladin or Monk would fill the role better.

One day I'm gonna get like 600 doses of wort a few DS pots and 1:1 naggy on my sk. One day!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One day I'm gonna get like 600 doses of wort a few DS pots and 1:1 naggy on my sk. One day!

Lol if that day ever comes please record it. That would be an awesome video.

[Samoht]

* Ashenbone Shield (small races only)

You may wish to double check the races on the Ashenbone Shield (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ashenbone_Shield). It is not small races only.

[Jimjam]

You may wish to double check the races on the Ashenbone Shield (https://wiki.project1999.com/Ashenbone_Shield). It is not small races only.

From context i suggest he meant non giant.

Even iksar can use, which are sometimes slipped in to large for weapons.

[Snaggles]

From context i suggest he meant non giant.

Even iksar can use, which are sometimes slipped in to large for weapons.

100% this. I assumed that would make sense since gnome SK’s aren’t a thing on p99..

[Jimjam]

What I found interesting was how little difference there was between the dark elf and ogre for agi/dex - where did you put the ogres starting stats?

The Dark Elf did a good job making up the stamina deficit - there is only 168 health difference and this is closed further if there are shaman buffs around. The difference is also made up a bit when in sword and board mode - (the ogre would be assumed to be about 50 hp down on that slot due to using clay guardian or atramentous). The extra mana reservoir on the dark elf is very impressive, though honestly I'm not sure how useful it would be (again my sk is a 52 troll - he doesn't really struggle that much with running out of mana, but perhaps I've just adapted to his mana pool).

The dark elf strength is appalling and will be a handicap if trying to solo, where the character's dps is quite important.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What I found interesting was how little difference there was between the dark elf and ogre for agi/dex - where did you put the ogres starting stats?


Typically you would put 5 into agi (to remove the AC penalty for being under 75 agi), and then the rest into INT. Ogres can easily max STR/STA, so it's not terribly useful to put points there.

The extra mana reservoir on the dark elf is very impressive, though honestly I'm not sure how useful it would be (again my sk is a 52 troll - he doesn't really struggle that much with running out of mana, but perhaps I've just adapted to his mana pool).

To your point about max mana: It is nice to have in certain situations, but most of your mana recovery is going to end up coming from Flowing Thought, Clickies, and Soul Defiler. That is why you don't see a huge difference on your Troll and Dark Elf mana pools. Max mana is more situational to dumping all your mana in a short period of time. When you are soloing/grouping while leveling up you typically don't do that, as it isn't efficient. It's more for "oh shit" situations, or maybe solo challenges.

[Jimjam]

It's more for "oh shit" situations, or maybe solo challenges.

I know mana regen is the same regardless of pool. I'm saying there are rarely situations (the oh shit ones) where I have to spike mana so much my troll runs out of mana (i.e. doesn't often need a bigger pool).

Honestly, the most common time to run out of mana is when thirsty

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know mana regen is the same regardless of pool. I'm saying there are rarely situations (the oh shit ones) where I have to spike mana so much my troll runs out of mana (i.e. doesn't often need a bigger pool).

Honestly, the most common time to run out of mana is when thirsty

Agreed. That has been my experience as well. I don't have too many memories where I am dumping my mana pool. Again, maybe it's a bit more common for people who do solo challenge stuff like Cliff Golems.

[Crede]

Typically you would put 5 into agi (to remove the AC penalty for being under 75 agi), and then the rest into INT. Ogres can easily max STR/STA, so it's not terribly useful to put points there.



To your point about max mana: It is nice to have in certain situations, but most of your mana recovery is going to end up coming from Flowing Thought, Clickies, and Soul Defiler. That is why you don't see a huge difference on your Troll and Dark Elf mana pools. Max mana is more situational to dumping all your mana in a short period of time. When you are soloing/grouping while leveling up you typically don't do that, as it isn't efficient. It's more for "oh shit" situations, or maybe solo challenges.

You can’t discredit max mana when paired with mana regen in a sustained xp situation. For instance I could usually go an hour with my troll before needing a break. If I had more int, I could have gone potentially 15-20 min longer before needing to med. int returns are pretty huge 50+ and relying on regen is a pretty inefficient way to recover health as an sk. I’m planning to do an erudite int build next and be able to see if/how much longer I could go before needing a break.

[Jimjam]

After an hour you should probably be taking a breather anyway imo. Troll proven better for mental health / well being!

Microbreak every 15 mins and minibreak after 45 mins- hour.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can’t discredit max mana when paired with mana regen in a sustained xp situation. For instance I could usually go an hour with my troll before needing a break. If I had more int, I could have gone potentially 15-20 min longer before needing to med. int returns are pretty huge 50+ and relying on regen is a pretty inefficient way to recover health as an sk. I’m planning to do an erudite int build next and be able to see if/how much longer I could go before needing a break.

I've never really needed my max mana when soloing. I fluctuate between like 1.7k and 2k max mana, depending on what's equipped, and I don't notice the difference. FT2 + FT1 + Clickies has been more than enough to keep my mana at safe levels. Not saying I never had "oh shit" moments, but they were rare.

HP isn't a huge issue when you are fear kiting, and with a Fungi or Velious Healing Chestplate you aren't low on HP that long.

[Crede]

I've never really needed my max mana when soloing. I fluctuate between like 1.7k and 2k max mana, depending on what's equipped, and I don't notice the difference. FT2 + FT1 + Clickies has been more than enough to keep my mana at safe levels. Not saying I never had "oh shit" moments, but they were rare.

HP isn't a huge issue when you are fear kiting, and with a Fungi or Velious Healing Chestplate you aren't low on HP that long.

HP does let you take hits to give your mana a break, but generally I agree it's not that big of a deal especially if you have some base regen like a fungi. Epic is the best thing you can do for HP. Max mana & mana regen are not mutually exclusive, you should be striving for both. My troll who went STA had about 300ish more HP than An erudite who went INT, but that erudite would have had like 700 more mana which is like 3 drain souls or another 1k hp. 700 more mana paired really good mana regen would also allow you to fear kite significantly longer too.

TLDR - SKs should be prioritizing both INT & mana regen IMO.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

TLDR - SKs should be prioritizing both INT & mana regen IMO.

I agree, mana is the bottleneck for Shadowknights. Max HP and Max Mana has diminishing returns in a lot of cases. Just make sure you have enough of both to do whatever content you are currently doing. Past that, focus on other stats. From my experience the racial differences in INT between Ogres/Trolls and Dark Elf/Erudite isn't big enough to worry about most of the time.

[Danth]

TLDR - SKs should be prioritizing both INT & mana regen IMO.

Leveling, especially solo, yeah. Mana bar tends to be the limiting factor in such conditions. It's also typically the limiting factor when acting as a tank for normal XP grind situations. Probably a safe bet for most players and the option I also recommend in such conditions.

For doing tougher stuff at level cap (mostly duo) I prefer AC and get whatever HP I can secondarily. Mana pool is largely a case of, "Whatever I end up with." It's hard to stack enough health to make a good difference against things hitting for hundreds--buys another round, maybe--and there's not enough time to empty a mana bar before dying anyway against that type of opponent. Lowering the average damage roll is the most useful option. Iksar have some appeal in that sense. Innoruuk's Curse, as good as it is, if it has a weakness it's that is has zero AC--a slight annoyance on an otherwise excellent item. I bag it in favor of a shield sometimes when pulling something particularly nasty, until slowed.

On the other hand, it seems apparent by now that few people (at least in-thread) play the way I do, with the luxury of a permanent duo partner. The shadowknight class can do more than most people ask of it, and do it well, but it wants to have other people around.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Leveling, especially solo, yeah. Mana bar tends to be the limiting factor in such conditions. It's also typically the limiting factor when acting as a tank for normal XP grind situations. Probably a safe bet for most players and the option I also recommend in such conditions.

For doing tougher stuff at level cap (mostly duo) I prefer AC and get whatever HP I can secondarily. Mana pool is largely a case of, "Whatever I end up with." It's hard to stack enough health to make a good difference against things hitting for hundreds--buys another round, maybe--and there's not enough time to empty a mana bar before dying anyway against that type of opponent. Lowering the average damage roll is the most useful option. Iksar have some appeal in that sense. Innoruuk's Curse, as good as it is, if it has a weakness it's that is has zero AC--a slight annoyance on an otherwise excellent item. I bag it in favor of a shield sometimes when pulling something particularly nasty, until slowed.

On the other hand, it seems apparent by now that few people (at least in-thread) play the way I do, with the luxury of a permanent duo partner. The shadowknight class can do more than most people ask of it, and do it well, but it wants to have other people around.

When duoing with a Shaman, AC or Resists (depending on situation) are going to end up giving you the best bang for the buck for sure. The main reason why Iksar doesn't matter too much in your case is because if you are a level 60 fighting level 55+ mobs, you are probably at the AC softcap already with your gear. You really aren't getting much out of the Iksar specific bonus. It's best when you are poorly geared, or Monk/Necromancer.

I don't like relying on weapons for Resistance bonus (like Greenmist), because weapons are often swapped out depending on situation. It's better to just have a resistance weapon like Axe of Resistance you swap to when the mob is casting a spell, and switch back to your DPS weapon afterwards.

[Danth]

AC returns overcap appear to be greater on P99 than they were on live, demonstrated by all parsing that I've seen since the 2015 AC revamp. In this case, it's best to regard P99 as somewhat custom.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

AC returns overcap appear to be greater on P99 than they were on live, demonstrated by all parsing that I've seen since the 2015 AC revamp. In this case, it's best to regard P99 as somewhat custom.

Do you have some data we can look at? I would be interested to see the differences.

[Snaggles]

What I found interesting was how little difference there was between the dark elf and ogre for agi/dex - where did you put the ogres starting stats?

The Dark Elf did a good job making up the stamina deficit - there is only 168 health difference and this is closed further if there are shaman buffs around. The difference is also made up a bit when in sword and board mode - (the ogre would be assumed to be about 50 hp down on that slot due to using clay guardian or atramentous). The extra mana reservoir on the dark elf is very impressive, though honestly I'm not sure how useful it would be (again my sk is a 52 troll - he doesn't really struggle that much with running out of mana, but perhaps I've just adapted to his mana pool).

The dark elf strength is appalling and will be a handicap if trying to solo, where the character's dps is quite important.

For both examples I just added 20 stamina; it’s not ideal for an end game ogre but just trying to keep the comparison accurate. The final hps and mana on the magelo might be a bit off. The stats though should be accurate per the gear. Normally 50 Stam difference at 60 on a knight is 260hps (5.2hp/sta). In this case though the ogre overcaps and the DE under caps since 205 is the magic number.

Mixing in a bit of high end raid gear it’s not impossible to cap stamina even on an elf. My eru paladin started with 20 str (lol…long ago) so 70 stamina. The unbuffed Str though is tough to increase since a lot mid-tier tank gear doesn’t have any and SK’s closest equivalent to Yaulp4 (40 str) is Siphon Strength and maybe a Dark Reaver proc. I would bring up the Greenmist strength steal proc but JFC let’s just not :D

[Danth]

Do you have some data we can look at? I would be interested to see the differences.

You'd have to look it up between here, Discord, etc. I'm not interested enough to try to find 8 years' worth of posts.

With respect to stamina, if you want to "cheat" at it a bit you can stack alchemy potions for another 50 total beyond the 50 a shaman gives. Just about anyone can max that statistic out if he really wants to. The ogre (and troll to a lesser extent) is nice for having the higher baseline so he'll have that cushion fulltime, not just when stacking for specific encounters.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You'd have to look it up between here, Discord, etc. I'm not interested enough to try to find 8 years' worth of posts.

With respect to stamina, if you want to "cheat" at it a bit you can stack alchemy potions for another 50 total beyond the 50 a shaman gives. Just about anyone can max that statistic out if he really wants to. The ogre (and troll to a lesser extent) is nice for having the higher baseline so he'll have that cushion fulltime, not just when stacking for specific encounters.

It's also nice to reduce the number of buffs you need, since we are capped at 15 buffs. You can't always fit an alchemy potion buff in.

[greatdane]

Maximum mana almost never means anything. Aside from raiding clerics and quad-kiting wizards/druids, there's almost never a situation where a few hundred extra to the depth of your mana pool would have made any difference. Either you're not outspending your regeneration, in which case it doesn't matter; or you are outspending your regeneration, in which case you never sit at full mana anyway and the ultimate maximum is irrelevant. As a hybrid, there will practically never be a situation where you go from full mana to OOM in one single fight and would have benefitted so much from even more mana that you'd have traded, say, HP or resists for it. The game just doesn't generally work that way. The size of one's mana pool only matters when you need a full mana bar for a single encounter and are fucked if you run out before it's over. That's basically just clerics in a CH chain, and quad-kiters.

[greatdane]

As far as stamina goes, it actually takes a surprising amount of gear to get there if you're not an ogre/troll. The DE magelo Snaggles posted earlier was pretty close to the best gear you can realistically get without actual raid loot, and it was like 30 points short. And that's with 2x hammered loop for a juicy -30 AC. To actually get to 205 unbuffed stamina on a smaller race, you generally need at least full Skyshrine (Kael has better AC but hardly any stam) and all the quested stuff like BoBs, and probably a handful of actual raid boss drops as well. That's not something you just get. I wager less than 5% of P99's players ever reach that stage of gearing. This is the real reason why the beefy races are generally better. For the vast majority of players, it's easily 50ish additional stamina even with shaman buffs.

And then there's still advantages to being capped in Kael gear, and especially capping without the STA buff so that you're not reliant on that. It both frees up a buff slot on raids and makes it so you're still optimized in groups that don't happen to have a shaman. STR/DEX/AGI generally doesn't matter much for a knight, but maintaining maxed STA is a pretty significant advantage. Depending on what gear you're wearing, it can amount to as much as half the raw HP on your gear. It's very significant if you're doing tough content. Imagine what a 250 HP charm item would cost. That's often what ogres effectively get for free.

[Snaggles]

Yea that exercise was fairly interesting. I think we often just assume everyone is going to cap every stat. Some of us will but a lot of people will not raid for a variety of reasons or it will always be an alt even if 60. Only two of my 60’s have dkp gear and while decently geared are not BiS trophy rooms. If a normally geared char/alt you have to make decisions and sacrifices.

I can see a deep mana pool being handy raiding as each tap for certain targets (or Pally Torp) can help offset an AoE. The longer you last the more dps you can do as a self sufficient player. That said a normal geared smaller SK will have less attack.

In the end hybrids are usually ranked by how they play. You can pull some wacky tricks with enough practice even if your gear is lacking. My vote is always to have fun, practice, and just pick whatever race speaks to you. Whatever you perceive the best, cool looking, or the weird underdog.

[Crede]

After leveling a troll SK to 60 with 20 points into STA, I would advice against it. Rarely if ever did that extra HP matter. What mattered more was hp regen like fungi & epic. If I had more INT though, it would have allowed me to go longer doing what SKs do best - fear kiting. And ultimately if you decide you want to solo stuff at high levels, INT returns are so much better(at least until 200 I haven't looked at it beyond that) and equate to a lot more drain soul hp then more sta does. I see STA as mostly a raid tanking stat, if that's what you want to prioritize that's fine but as others suggested rolling a SK to focus on raids isn't really optimal.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

After leveling a troll SK to 60 with 20 points into STA, I would advice against it. Rarely if ever did that extra HP matter. What mattered more was hp regen like fungi & epic. If I had more INT though, it would have allowed me to go longer doing what SKs do best - fear kiting. And ultimately if you decide you want to solo stuff at high levels, INT returns are so much better(at least until 200 I haven't looked at it beyond that) and equate to a lot more drain soul hp then more sta does. I see STA as mostly a raid tanking stat, if that's what you want to prioritize that's fine but as others suggested rolling a SK to focus on raids isn't really optimal.

Agreed, for Troll you should alway dump into INT as an SK. In Velious it is easy to cap STR and STA.

[greatdane]

I mean, putting 20 points in INT gives something like 240 mana. That's a single cast of Drain Soul. If you weren't capped on STA, that's approximately how much you'd get from putting the points there instead, except you don't have to cast anything to benefit from it, and the value is capitalized upon every single time you're the target of a CH whereas the increased mana pool only helps you once each time you go from full mana to OOM in a single encounter. Literally anytime you are CHed more than once every half hour or something, you got more out of putting the points in STA, unless you cap that stat without doing so. Also anytime you die, there's a chance that a few hundred extra HP would have given healers enough time to save you. Mana pool never does that.

If you absolutely never do anything that includes being the target of healing spells, it won't matter. If you live your life fear-kiting solo, you could probably have half your current HP and it would never make any difference as that gameplay simply doesn't make it relevant. But if you want to try to do some serious tanking with a knight, the #1 priority is to do everything you can to make it as efficient as possible. The only way knights get to ever tank anything on raids is if they eke out every little bit of extra tankiness to minimize the gulf between them and warriors. If that has no bearing on you, obviously it doesn't matter.

The safest route is to go with a race that ensures you'll cap your STA, even if that ends up meaning you've exceeded the cap by a bit and technically "wasted" some stat points. At the end of the day, none of the other stats have any impact whatsoever on how well you perform as a tank. At any given moment, you could reduce all of your other stats to 75 and it would literally be unnoticeable (except for your max melee hits, I guess). That's why the only race choices that are worth taking the time to discuss are regen for soloing or ogre for FSI and the highest STA. Anything else is just vague fashionquest that doesn't warrant the bandwidth it takes to post about it because nobody has ever benefitted from hearing "just play what you think looks best!" Everyone already knew that.

[zati]

Drain soul is like the best spell for SK it does damage and heals. I'm just goin at it from a solo challenge perspective, but race overall doesn't matter and str/sta is highly over-rated. INT is harder to max and the only way to get max mana before an engage is to carry extra gear>sit med to full>engage mob> blow mana> swap in real gear

Ppl shit on small races thinking their starting stats matter but once you get 60 or HoT gear it barely makes a difference in the grand scheme of things. A SK or Pally only need like 5K hp max for CH to land when tanking a ToV drake/wurm/HoT, anymore just makes it easier for the cleric to be AFK or start heals late. A warrior will always do it better because of defensive and OP taunt.

Here's proof on my stats with like only 3 or 4 end game loot when I solo'd King in 2020 before they nerfed the stay-off-rock. Only killed it once to prove that it was doable. It dropped a robe which was destroyed lol

https://imgur.com/4cfQMBg ..

185 int and 214 stamina self buffs(clarity is from spores I found) and 1 charge of cohesion(+25sta+25dex potion) 2724 mana max if you divide that by 225mana that's nearly 12 drain souls or 4056 damage / 4056 healed. That's whopping 70 points of INT missing and if you added shaman sta +50 buff you'd be capped out. I put my starting points into str/sta I think. When you're raiding you'll ALWAYS have Focus/Stamina buff.

https://imgur.com/1YhzZDK

these were my stats fully buffed with focus/aego/sta vs Lodi on my first try ..again 196 int , 255 str, 241sta (didn't use cohesion pot) with potion you'd be max sta. 2920 max mana with 59 points missing to max int.. Nearly 13 drains souls could be casted.. Remember that's a Dark elf starting w/ int 109 in my case.. Erudites start with 117 and Human start at 85 assuming no points go into it

so clearly erudite is the best /facepalm.

[Jimjam]

Right, so I decided to have some recent first hand experience.

I've popped into the hole on my 52 sk (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Nareik) (click for Magelo - is missing many of the later spells).

I'm at zone in, splitting using dooming darkness and the zoneline (perhaps I should be using the free FD from BE greaves instead? Zoneline seems superior cos i can heal a bit out of zone and I don't take hits from add this way).

I start the battle with sword and board, cast siphon strength, shadow vortex and shroud of hate then switch to Reaver, casting Lifedraw between swings. If I remember I precast major shielding and vampiric embrace. Once the mob is at about 40% I cast dooming darkness and then invoke fear, which makes the mob flee on the spot. I'm finishing fights with about 40%hp 20% mana remaining.

Occasionally bashes are interrupting, but these are usually due to the improved knockback/interupt chance rather than stun.

In short, race doesn't seem to matter in this instance against these mobs with this gear. Xp would be faster on a smaller race, but I'm in no hurry. BnB in SolB may be faster, especially if using the bats zoneline and a short duration fear to kite.


Question: in these fights is it worth using heart flutter, etc in addition to the stat taps? The NPC is generally winning on %hp while getting the debuff taps set up. Should I even bother with the stat taps and just spam reaver / life tap for the win?

[Encroaching Death]

Question: in these fights is it worth using heart flutter, etc in addition to the stat taps? The NPC is generally winning on %hp while getting the debuff taps set up. Should I even bother with the stat taps and just spam reaver / life tap for the win?

The disease line of DoTs are mana efficient, but they're also long lasting, so make sure they fully tick out.

Do you have a Fungi on your SK?

If you find yourself lower on HP than on Mana for the duration of your fighting, then yeah, probably a good idea to toss in a Heart Flutter. But cast it at the beginning of the fight.

[Jimjam]

No fundi on sk, just HoTish armour. its pretty random how much hp/mana is left at the end of the fight. IDK why. Maybe cos I haven't bottomed out the curve for mitigation vs elementals? seems hard to believe cos they should be tuned for way worse gear than HoT.

[zati]

Right, so I decided to have some recent first hand experience.

I've popped into the hole on my 52 sk (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Nareik) (click for Magelo - is missing many of the later spells).

I'm at zone in, splitting using dooming darkness and the zoneline (perhaps I should be using the free FD from BE greaves instead? Zoneline seems superior cos i can heal a bit out of zone and I don't take hits from add this way).

I start the battle with sword and board, cast siphon strength, shadow vortex and shroud of hate then switch to Reaver, casting Lifedraw between swings. If I remember I precast major shielding and vampiric embrace. Once the mob is at about 40% I cast dooming darkness and then invoke fear, which makes the mob flee on the spot. I'm finishing fights with about 40%hp 20% mana remaining.

Occasionally bashes are interrupting, but these are usually due to the improved knockback/interupt chance rather than stun.

In short, race doesn't seem to matter in this instance against these mobs with this gear. Xp would be faster on a smaller race, but I'm in no hurry. BnB in SolB may be faster, especially if using the bats zoneline and a short duration fear to kite.


Question: in these fights is it worth using heart flutter, etc in addition to the stat taps? The NPC is generally winning on %hp while getting the debuff taps set up. Should I even bother with the stat taps and just spam reaver / life tap for the win?

try using BE gloves to split to save mana, or if you don't have em use Engulfing darkness it works just as well... Dooming darkness is for longer pulls imo. Invoke fear is like 120m per cast and the only benefit is its fast cast/longer duration.. you could use normal "Fear" which is like 40mana when the mob is 25-30% HP n it will stay put.. longer cast time but if you factor in Resists rates 1 resisted invoke fear is mana down the drain and you get 3 chances on regular fear spell to equal the cost. That way u can use the excess mana to do a heart flutter -ac -str at the start of a fight then siphon life when you get too low hp

[Crede]

Right, so I decided to have some recent first hand experience.

I've popped into the hole on my 52 sk (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Nareik) (click for Magelo - is missing many of the later spells).

I'm at zone in, splitting using dooming darkness and the zoneline (perhaps I should be using the free FD from BE greaves instead? Zoneline seems superior cos i can heal a bit out of zone and I don't take hits from add this way).

I start the battle with sword and board, cast siphon strength, shadow vortex and shroud of hate then switch to Reaver, casting Lifedraw between swings. If I remember I precast major shielding and vampiric embrace. Once the mob is at about 40% I cast dooming darkness and then invoke fear, which makes the mob flee on the spot. I'm finishing fights with about 40%hp 20% mana remaining.

Occasionally bashes are interrupting, but these are usually due to the improved knockback/interupt chance rather than stun.

In short, race doesn't seem to matter in this instance against these mobs with this gear. Xp would be faster on a smaller race, but I'm in no hurry. BnB in SolB may be faster, especially if using the bats zoneline and a short duration fear to kite.


Question: in these fights is it worth using heart flutter, etc in addition to the stat taps? The NPC is generally winning on %hp while getting the debuff taps set up. Should I even bother with the stat taps and just spam reaver / life tap for the win?

A lot of things you’re doing wrong here. Don’t split use dooming. Split using BE gauntlets, engulfing is enough to stop the mob. BE gaunts/greaves = nonstop manaless splits. You should never dooming/invoke at 40%. At that point mob is low enough to just BE gaunts + bE boots. Or spook the dead if it’s an undead mob.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A lot of things you’re doing wrong here. Don’t split use dooming. Split using BE gauntlets, engulfing is enough to stop the mob. BE gaunts/greaves = nonstop manaless splits. You should never dooming/invoke at 40%. At that point mob is low enough to just BE gaunts + bE boots. Or spook the dead if it’s an undead mob.

Agree with this.

You need to be careful when deciding to use dooming darkness. You can't override it with BE gauntlets, so you are comitted once you land it.

I only use dooming when fear kiting on a short runway, like Howling Stones north ramp. Clearing the mob in the corner can be done via fear kiting, but you need dooming and slam to keep the mob from pathing into the hallway. Once you have all 3 mobs down it is easier to use BE gauntlets if you pull the mob to the farthest wall by the picture dropdown.

You need to use your lowest level fear too, since you don't want it to last too long. I have Fear, Spook the Dead, and BE Boots ready to reappply fear.

[Crede]

Agree with this.

You need to be careful when deciding to use dooming darkness. You can't override it with BE gauntlets, so you are comitted once you land it.

I only use dooming when fear kiting on a short runway, like Howling Stones north ramp. Clearing the mob in the corner can be done via fear kiting, but you need dooming and slam to keep the mob from pathing into the hallway. Once you have all 3 mobs down it is easier to use BE gauntlets if you pull the mob to the farthest wall by the picture dropdown.

You need to use your lowest level fear too, since you don't want it to last too long. I have Fear, Spook the Dead, and BE Boots ready to reappply fear.

Yea sk soloing is a fine balancing act. Dooming should be used sparingly as it sucks mana. Depending on the natural speed of the mob sometimes I might not cast it entirely other times I would use it to try to get the mob to at least 50% because then when they start slowing down you should absolutely use the engulfing click. I’ve done some deep hole, hs grinds fear kiting. You’d be surprised how much you can do with snare, bash, and a low duration fear. This is why I recommend any solo sk to use a shield if you can’t slam or you don’t have epic. It really opens up some options.

[Jimjam]

Agree with this.

You need to be careful when deciding to use dooming darkness. You can't override it with BE gauntlets, so you are comitted once you land it.

I only use dooming when fear kiting on a short runway, like Howling Stones north ramp. Clearing the mob in the corner can be done via fear kiting, but you need dooming and slam to keep the mob from pathing into the hallway. Once you have all 3 mobs down it is easier to use BE gauntlets if you pull the mob to the farthest wall by the picture dropdown.

You need to use your lowest level fear too, since you don't want it to last too long. I have Fear, Spook the Dead, and BE Boots ready to reappply fear.

The entrance to hole IS a short run way and I need the duration to double zone.

18 seconds isn’t enough to finish the mob off - i don’t want it doing an extra round of attacks when fear breaks. It is unreliable whether there is enough distance from other mobs to guarantee it will/won’t social flee at low hp.

When the mob is low enough hp it stops moving entirely - until then i am facetanking. Not enough room at zone in to fear kite proper.

Nevertheless I’ll try out the suggestions and see if there is an improvement.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The entrance to hole IS a short run way and I need the duration to double zone.

18 seconds isn’t enough to finish the mob off - i don’t want it doing an extra round of attacks when fear breaks. It is unreliable whether there is enough distance from other mobs to guarantee it will/won’t social flee at low hp.

When the mob is low enough hp it stops moving entirely - until then i am facetanking. Not enough room at zone in to fear kite proper.

Nevertheless I’ll try out the suggestions and see if there is an improvement.

What I do in HS is I back off a few seconds before fear ends, and bring the mob back to the beginning of the runway, and re-fear. Rinse repeat until dead.

I have a video https://youtu.be/WmDvk3udrhI

[Jimjam]

ack I tried to record 9 mins of hole entry fun but it only captured sound :'(

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ack I tried to record 9 mins of hole entry fun but it only captured sound :'(

I've done that before. Always hate it when you think you set everything up and forgot to press a button or something.

[Snaggles]

I’d probably pick a longer runway and come back to the Hole when you can pull from CE. Grobb will take you to low 50’s easy by the entrance and had a longer runway.

I’d use Dooming and normal fear. Melee a few rounds to the PoD and run back to the zone and wait. Or go to HK and exp even faster with less danger.

Also I’d stay 2h. Unless you have a horrible one it’s going to significantly outpace the best 1h’s outside ToV or Yeli. Quicker kills, less fears, less mana, quicker repops.

[Pint]

Thread would be more useful if it had more then one sk main in it. Bunch of ppl debating their alts not so helpful

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thread would be more useful if it had more then one sk main in it. Bunch of ppl debating their alts not so helpful

You don't need to main a class to understand it well. That isn't a good argument. Besides, my SK was my original main for years. He was the first character I got above 50 on P99, and he farmed the money for my Shaman. I just ended up liking Shaman more, which is why I got him to 60 first.

[Ripqozko]

You don't need to main a class to understand it well. That isn't a good argument. Besides, my SK was my original main for years. He was the first character I got above 50 on P99, and he farmed the money for my Shaman. I just ended up liking Shaman more, which is why I got him to 60 first.

Consider finishing Your sk. Hope that helps

[jolanar]

Gonna piggy back on this thread...

Wiki says SK piercing skill cap is 15 lower than the rest of their combat skills. How does that effect using Shard of Night vs Ebon Mace? Does the skill cap difference negate the 2 extra damage on the Shard?

Similarly, does the skill cap difference make Narandi's Lance not very appealing for a SK?

[Snaggles]

Gonna piggy back on this thread...

Wiki says SK piercing skill cap is 15 lower than the rest of their combat skills. How does that effect using Shard of Night vs Ebon Mace? Does the skill cap difference negate the 2 extra damage on the Shard?

Similarly, does the skill cap difference make Narandi's Lance not very appealing for a SK?

It's like 40'something attack at 60 over another weapon skill. Probably something more to worry about picking with raid gear than narandi vs other. It's certainly not bad, the dot adds like 6dps.

[Crede]

Gonna piggy back on this thread...

Wiki says SK piercing skill cap is 15 lower than the rest of their combat skills. How does that effect using Shard of Night vs Ebon Mace? Does the skill cap difference negate the 2 extra damage on the Shard?

Similarly, does the skill cap difference make Narandi's Lance not very appealing for a SK?

I wouldn’t discount the Lance simply due to the lower piercing cap. I would still get it if you’re planning to solo in kc/hs/CoM 55-60. Otherwise just stick with a reaver.

[Pint]

Gonna piggy back on this thread...

Wiki says SK piercing skill cap is 15 lower than the rest of their combat skills. How does that effect using Shard of Night vs Ebon Mace? Does the skill cap difference negate the 2 extra damage on the Shard?

Similarly, does the skill cap difference make Narandi's Lance not very appealing for a SK?

Seems to level in step with 2hs and 1hb so wouldn't be an issue till it capped and at that point is suspect it's balanced out by narandi just being better then the buyable options that aren't pierce

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Seems to level in step with 2hs and 1hb so wouldn't be an issue till it capped and at that point is suspect it's balanced out by narandi just being better then the buyable options that aren't pierce

The skill up for piercing does slow down 50+. You only get 1 point per level. That being said, I agree about Narandi Lance. It's one of the better weapons you can buy. It's a good alternative to Reaver if you need a magic weapon. The proc will also make up for some of the DPS loss.

[jolanar]

Cool sounds like Reaver when possible, else use Narandi is about as good as it gets.

Curious of the Shard of Night is still worth using over Ebon Mace. Guess i'll have to do some parses if I ever make it that high. =P

[Crede]

Cool sounds like Reaver when possible, else use Narandi is about as good as it gets.

Curious of the Shard of Night is still worth using over Ebon Mace. Guess i'll have to do some parses if I ever make it that high. =P

Shard will out dps ebon mace. If you don’t have slam and plan to do a lot of tight quarters fear kiting id probably get the shard until you get epic.

[Pint]

Can confirm shard is better then mace while leveling to 50