FSI is overrated garb

[ya.dingus]

Have you noticed the ogre fsi cult claims this is such a great and life altering ability, but lack the stats to prove it?

- Ogre classes do not parse higher than their other race counter parts when stat capped.

- There is no statistical margin that has been proven that shows ogres die less than other races because of FSI

- There is no statistical results that show Ogre shaman are anymore successful at solo challenges than their counter parts


FSI fails to be useful anytime a creature is:
Slowed
Kicking instead of bashing because they have access to it
You're not face tanking it


- Bash still stops you from casting even if you're not stunned

- Situational Vacuums have to be created to justify FSI:

What if there are 4 mobs on you, just back into a wall and you can cast!
(If there are 4, at level mobs on you in end game, you're dead even if you get a single spell off. That's just fact.)
(Maybe there is a case for FD, but chances are if you're in a high level dungeon, there's a caster, and if you're waiting for the perfect time to FD because you dont want it breaking in spell hit, you're dead most likely anyway.)
What if you're trying to heal with the last second heal, and you get bashed and
die!
(Why didn't you heal before you got that low? At best, it's a 2% situation encounter)



There's only one thing you can count FSI doing that is actually reliable:
- Keeping you from being knocked back by tunare. That's it. It's the only thing you can count on for it. Everything else is hyperbole, or inaccuracy.


Seriously, why are we taking advice from players who show the same IQ score as their character's stat screen.

[Encroaching Death]

I can't hear you over the sound of you being stunned

[ya.dingus]

I can't hear you over the sound of you being stunned

You can't hear anything because your lard ass is caught trying to get through the dungeon door in the first place.

It's like watching 4'5'' of 215 lbs of muffin top squeeze into some yoga pants for their only fans. Awful.

[Encroaching Death]

You can't hear anything because your lard ass is caught trying to get through the dungeon door in the first place.

I'm sexy.

#BodyPositive

[Encroaching Death]

https://i.ibb.co/vDpJ41N/Eb-Ks-Jc-XXs-AE8-Cmk.jpg

[ya.dingus]

https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/7krGDcdXM6Q

[Jobaber]

hope FSI saves you while I block the exit to sol B trains you filthy monsters

[Ripqozko]

inb4 DSM post

[Encroaching Death]

Most of time when I get stunned, it's from the back.

Ogres BTFO.

[ya.dingus]

Dude clogging up the exit worse than those cheese potatoes clogging up Kelly's arteries.

[Encroaching Death]

Ogres just like Cheesy Dwarf Potatoes is all

[Snaggles]

Posts trolling thread in tank subforum.
Proceeds to base 80% of the content around the shaman class.

5/5 Stars.

[ya.dingus]

Posts trolling thread in tank subforum.
Proceeds to base 80% of the content around the shaman class.

5/5 Stars.


One line is 80% of the content?

Did you read the entire post?

[Duik]

So not Troll bait, its Ogre bait. Got it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only cult here are the people who have unwavering faith Regeneration does more than what you can mathematically calculate. Somehow it "always being active" is a magical charm that gives you more benefits.

You can do the math youself and see Regeneration does nothing for you in most cases once you have Torpor. You don't need to take it from me. Video record a fight and check how much HP you would have gained. You'll still be alive and back at full HP by the time your mob respawns, no different from an Ogre.

It amazes me how offended people get when Regeneration gets mentioned in a negative context. I will never understand what magic people think it offers.


- Bash still stops you from casting even if you're not stunned.

This is incorrect. Bash has a chance to interrupt spells, but it isn't guaranteed when a stun occurs. The stun is the guaranteed interrupt. If you prevent a stun via FSI you only have a chance to be interrupted, not a guarantee.

[ya.dingus]

The only cult here are the people who have unwavering faith Regeneration does more than what you can mathematically calculate. Somehow it "always being active" is a magical charm that gives you more benefits.

You can do the math youself and see Regeneration does nothing for you in most cases once you have Torpor. You don't need to take it from me. Video record a fight and check how much HP you would have gained. You'll still be alive and back at full HP by the time your mob respawns, no different from an Ogre.

It amazes me how offended people get when Regeneration gets mentioned in a negative context. I will never understand what magic people think it offers.



This is incorrect. Bash has a chance to interrupt spells, but it isn't guaranteed when a stun occurs. The stun is the guaranteed interrupt. If you prevent a stun via FSI you only have a chance to be interrupted, not a guarantee.

Better to optimize around 100% chance of good traits, than a 3-5% chance of FSI being meaningful other than preventing melee annoyance.

However I will say your comments on erudite sk were pretty on point. I'll give you a lot of credit that some of your stuff is good.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Better to optimize around 100% chance of good traits, than a 3-5% chance of FSI being meaningful other than preventing melee annoyance.

However I will say your comments on erudite sk were pretty on point. I'll give you a lot of credit that some of your stuff is good.

Genuinely curious, why do you think it is 100% for Regeneration and 3-5% for FSI? I've never gotten a straight answer from somebody who is this fanatical about Regeneration. What math are you doing to arrive at this conclusion?

[Jimjam]

This is a tank thread, so I will say Torpor sucks - it ruins dps and aggro.

Hp recovery for iksar warrior at 59 compared to half elf warrior is night and day. I use iksar as example as I’ve levelled both to 59 or more recently.

Versus a LDC Isn’t unusual for half elf to finish fight on a few % hp and guzzling a potion or 2 to survive. Sometimes he even perishes to a damage spike. They take circa 3 mins to reduce their hp to zero (the duration of evasive). That extra 210 hp frequently is enough to save guzzling 10pp or even getting a rez.

Bash basically never stuns in these fights.

Deffo would prefer gaining regen trait to fsi on my red war.

[Encroaching Death]

Regen is only crucial on a Necro.

Warriors should never be in a fight without a healer babysitting them.

Monks can bandage and Mend to 100% HP.

Shamans have Torpor.

Regen doesn't really do anything past level 20.

[Snaggles]

If you are FD splitting with a SK you might see more use from this. Bash is generally the first skill a npc blows on engage (or one of them, they don’t save skills for the opportune moment). One bash on a knight is meh, 3-4 npcs trying to bash is a fairly high chance of having FD interrupted. Throw in a caster and you have multiple factors to worry about with splitting.

See? Pragmatic point made about FSI actually being beneficial (but not necessary) for a tank in the tank section. Where’s my academy award?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you are FD splitting with a SK you might see more use from this. Bash is generally the first skill a npc blows on engage (or one of them, they don’t save skills for the opportune moment). One bash on a knight is meh, 3-4 npcs trying to bash is a fairly high chance of having FD interrupted. Throw in a caster and you have multiple factors to worry about with splitting.

See? Pragmatic point made about FSI actually being beneficial (but not necessary) for a tank in the tank section. Where’s my academy award?

Hehe unfortunately you won't be getting that award. OP is really talking about Shamans. He is bringing a conversation from the Priest forums over to here for some strange reason. I guess he didn't think the discussion was getting enough attention since it was off topic from the thread at hand. It became off topic due to him.

To further expand upon how FSI should work, I have included some code from the EQEMU GitHub within the spoiler below. The important code is marked in bold:


bool can_stun = false;
int stunbash_chance = 0; // bonus
if (attacker) {
if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillBash) {
can_stun = true;
if (attacker->IsClient())
stunbash_chance = attacker->spellbonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->itembonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->aabonuses.StunBashChance;
}
else if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillKick &&
(attacker->GetLevel() > 55 || attacker->IsNPC()) && GetClass() == WARRIOR) {
can_stun = true;
}

bool is_immune_to_frontal_stun = false;

if (IsBot() || IsClient() || IsMerc()) {
if (
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}


if (
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
} else if (IsNPC()) {
if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityClasses) &&
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}

if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityRaces) &&
(
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
)
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
}

if (
is_immune_to_frontal_stun &&
!attacker->BehindMob(this, attacker->GetX(), attacker->GetY())
) {
can_stun = false;
}

if (GetSpecialAbility(UNSTUNABLE)) {
can_stun = false;
}
}
if (can_stun) {
int bashsave_roll = zone->random.Int(0, 100);
if (bashsave_roll > 98 || bashsave_roll > (55 - stunbash_chance)) {
// did stun -- roll other resists
// SE_FrontalStunResist description says any angle now a days
int stun_resist2 = spellbonuses.FrontalStunResist + itembonuses.FrontalStunResist +
aabonuses.FrontalStunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(1, 100) > stun_resist2) {
// stun resist 2 failed
// time to check SE_StunResist and mod2 stun resist
int stun_resist =
spellbonuses.StunResist + itembonuses.StunResist + aabonuses.StunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(0, 100) >= stun_resist) {
// did stun
// nothing else to check!
Stun(2000); // straight 2 seconds every time
}
else {
// stun resist passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, SHAKE_OFF_STUN);
}
}
else {
// stun resist 2 passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, AVOID_STUNNING_BLOW);
}
}
else {
// main stun failed -- extra interrupt roll
if (IsCasting() &&
!EQ::ValueWithin(casting_spell_id, 859, 1023)) // these spells are excluded
// 90% chance >< -- stun immune won't reach this branch though :(
if (zone->random.Int(0, 9) > 1)
InterruptSpell();
}
}

if (spell_id != SPELL_UNKNOWN && !iBuffTic) {
//see if root will break
if (IsRooted() && !FromDamageShield) // neotoyko: only spells cancel root
TryRootFadeByDamage(buffslot, attacker);
}
else if (spell_id == SPELL_UNKNOWN)
{
//increment chances of interrupting
if (IsCasting()) { //shouldnt interrupt on regular spell damage
attacked_count++;
LogCombat("Melee attack while casting. Attack count [{}]", attacked_count);
}
}


As you can see, if you have FSI, the stun and extra interrupt check are bypassed completely. There is no other code in this function that calls the InterruptSpell() function. This means there is no special code to force interrupt a spell after a stun has been resisted via FSI.

Now, people are going to say "P99 has custom code changes that aren't in the EQEMU repository!", and that is true. But P99 is based on this code, and P99 didn't change every single line of code. If you want to claim that spells always get interrupted after FSI prevents a stun, you need to provide evidence to suggest the P99 developers changed this portion of code. Finding a discussion based on FSI where the developers contributed would be a great piece of evidence to suggest they at least looked at this section of code and made a decision about it. I haven't seen that, but I haven't scoured the forums either.

When it comes to Monks/Shadowknights/Warriors, racial Regeneration is a much bigger helper when it comes to soloing. It will significantly reduce your down times. Outside of soloing, it doesn't really do much. Most racials operate this way: you get the best utility from them when soloing, and lose most of their utility outside of that. FSI is specifically very good for Shamans, because it can save you during the pre-slow period of the fight (the first minute or so), where racial Regeneration is just too slow to save you. You will get a total of 80HP in that minute. When fighting mobs that hit for 140+, that isn't even 1 hit saved. Once the mob is slowed, no racial really matters since the fight is under control, barring any extreme exceptions like getting attacked by other mobs or something.

[Snaggles]

I'm shocked you arent taking my side with FSI but also remember you have a troll SK.

We know where this thread is going. I'll bow out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm shocked you arent taking my side with FSI but also remember you have a troll SK.

We know where this thread is going. I'll bow out.

I didn't really comment on your explanation specifically, but I can certainly do so.

My stance on Shadowknights has been if you MOSTLY group/raid with your SK, go Ogre. The FSI will help you out more in group situations than regen typically, because you will have a healer. Your example with pulling mobs is also correct, and you are more likely to pull like that in a group.

If you mostly solo, go Troll. FSI isn't going to help you too much in this situation, because you will be fear kiting a large portion of the time anyway, which means you aren't getting stunned. The HP Regeneration is going to reduce your downtime more than getting saved with FSI.

[Ripqozko]

993

[Crede]

I didn't really comment on your explanation specifically, but I can certainly do so.

My stance on Shadowknights has been if you MOSTLY group/raid with your SK, go Ogre. The FSI will help you out more in group situations than regen typically, because you will have a healer. Your example with pulling mobs is also correct, and you are more likely to pull like that in a group.

If you mostly solo, go Troll. FSI isn't going to help you too much in this situation, because you will be fear kiting a large portion of the time anyway, which means you aren't getting stunned. The HP Regeneration is going to reduce your downtime more than getting saved with FSI.

I would agree with this. I have met a few raiding SKs who regretted not being ogres, so that is something to keep in mind. For soloing unfortunately Sks get shitty bind wound & are left with the velious bp for downtime healing which is really slow so regen becomes a bigger deal.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would agree with this. I have met a few raiding SKs who regretted not being ogres, so that is something to keep in mind. For soloing unfortunately Sks get shitty bind wound & are left with the velious bp for downtime healing which is really slow so regen becomes a bigger deal.

Exactly. Being able to heal 440 HP/Min instead of 360 HP/Min while spamming Velious BP is roughly a 20% increase in healing per minute. You will also be regenerating while chasing feared mobs via fear kiting, so that is up to an extra 80 HP/Min while not spamming Velious BP.

[Danth]

Don't know what I'm supposed to be pulling where bash resist is going to routinely matter. I've split Khelkor's room, Protectors of Zek, Reets/Juggernauts, Necropolis rats, Velk castle golems, Hateplane, etc. Bash just isn't a big deal. When the subject has come up in the past the pro-ogre proponents kept moving the goalposts to higher- and higher-end areas like Veeshan's Peak. The worst places for pulling are Kedge and Siren's because of the underwater, and that's because of movement from being hit interrupting spells, not because of bash.

--Bash resist is nice on a soloist shaman since shamans spend a lot of time casting slow-cast spells. Still isn't required, but at least there it saves some nuisance. Prior to the shaman obtaining the torpor spell regeneration is pretty much flat-out better for what should be obvious reasons.

--Supposedly, parsing years ago suggested the ogre racial is worth a couple per cent higher threat generation for a warrior. It also means a warrior can move backwards while being hit without being stopped now and then.

Among the three ogre classes, bash resist is never worth more than a slight advantage. To the min-maxer who wants that slight advantage, it makes for what is probably the best overall group/raid warrior, the best soloist high-level shaman, and maybe the best raid-puller shadowknight. In most other cases other racials (notably regeneration) tend to perform better. In all cases the bash immunity is a quality of life feature, never a necessity, and mostly beneficial to players who get really annoyed at being bashed. If the occasional interrupt or stun bugs you and ruins your fun, make an ogre. Otherwise, have fun on something else; they'll all get the same jobs done throughout the game.

Danth

[Encroaching Death]

Regen is stupiod

[Keebz]

FSI isn't really useful for FD splitting. For it to really provide value, you'd have to have multiple high level mobs beating on you and be positioned in a corner to prevent push and have their bashes actually land during your 1-second death peace, which is pretty contrived.

FSI is useful for moving raid targets around while tanking, which for SK is a pretty limited set of mobs that all die quickly (Fear Golems, Draco, maybe VP dragons). Much more useful on Warrior, though less so with ToV being rooted these days.

Ogre is a great race, and FSI is occasionally handy, but not the be all end all.

[bobjonesp99]

i main a gnome warrior and id never change that to be a big ugly ogre.

that said, you cant drink wort/bark pots when youre stunned.

reducing your chances of being stunned is pretty valuable as a raid tank.

[Allishia]

i main a gnome warrior and id never change that to be a big ugly ogre.

that said, you cant drink wort/bark pots when youre stunned.

reducing your chances of being stunned is pretty valuable as a raid tank.

Ogres try to push this fsi thing like it matters but it doesn't, not even a little bit. Tanked and instant engaged everything (that a war can) in game (except warders) and never had an issue chugging wort pots or hitting reaper. Play what you like /nod.

[ya.dingus]

Hehe unfortunately you won't be getting that award. OP is really talking about Shamans. He is bringing a conversation from the Priest forums over to here for some strange reason. I guess he didn't think the discussion was getting enough attention since it was off topic from the thread at hand. It became off topic due to him.

To further expand upon how FSI should work, I have included some code from the EQEMU GitHub within the spoiler below. The important code is marked in bold:


bool can_stun = false;
int stunbash_chance = 0; // bonus
if (attacker) {
if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillBash) {
can_stun = true;
if (attacker->IsClient())
stunbash_chance = attacker->spellbonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->itembonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->aabonuses.StunBashChance;
}
else if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillKick &&
(attacker->GetLevel() > 55 || attacker->IsNPC()) && GetClass() == WARRIOR) {
can_stun = true;
}

bool is_immune_to_frontal_stun = false;

if (IsBot() || IsClient() || IsMerc()) {
if (
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}


if (
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
} else if (IsNPC()) {
if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityClasses) &&
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}

if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityRaces) &&
(
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
)
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
}

if (
is_immune_to_frontal_stun &&
!attacker->BehindMob(this, attacker->GetX(), attacker->GetY())
) {
can_stun = false;
}

if (GetSpecialAbility(UNSTUNABLE)) {
can_stun = false;
}
}
if (can_stun) {
int bashsave_roll = zone->random.Int(0, 100);
if (bashsave_roll > 98 || bashsave_roll > (55 - stunbash_chance)) {
// did stun -- roll other resists
// SE_FrontalStunResist description says any angle now a days
int stun_resist2 = spellbonuses.FrontalStunResist + itembonuses.FrontalStunResist +
aabonuses.FrontalStunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(1, 100) > stun_resist2) {
// stun resist 2 failed
// time to check SE_StunResist and mod2 stun resist
int stun_resist =
spellbonuses.StunResist + itembonuses.StunResist + aabonuses.StunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(0, 100) >= stun_resist) {
// did stun
// nothing else to check!
Stun(2000); // straight 2 seconds every time
}
else {
// stun resist passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, SHAKE_OFF_STUN);
}
}
else {
// stun resist 2 passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, AVOID_STUNNING_BLOW);
}
}
else {
// main stun failed -- extra interrupt roll
if (IsCasting() &&
!EQ::ValueWithin(casting_spell_id, 859, 1023)) // these spells are excluded
// 90% chance >< -- stun immune won't reach this branch though :(
if (zone->random.Int(0, 9) > 1)
InterruptSpell();
}
}

if (spell_id != SPELL_UNKNOWN && !iBuffTic) {
//see if root will break
if (IsRooted() && !FromDamageShield) // neotoyko: only spells cancel root
TryRootFadeByDamage(buffslot, attacker);
}
else if (spell_id == SPELL_UNKNOWN)
{
//increment chances of interrupting
if (IsCasting()) { //shouldnt interrupt on regular spell damage
attacked_count++;
LogCombat("Melee attack while casting. Attack count [{}]", attacked_count);
}
}


As you can see, if you have FSI, the stun and extra interrupt check are bypassed completely. There is no other code in this function that calls the InterruptSpell() function. This means there is no special code to force interrupt a spell after a stun has been resisted via FSI.

Now, people are going to say "P99 has custom code changes that aren't in the EQEMU repository!", and that is true. But P99 is based on this code, and P99 didn't change every single line of code. If you want to claim that spells always get interrupted after FSI prevents a stun, you need to provide evidence to suggest the P99 developers changed this portion of code. Finding a discussion based on FSI where the developers contributed would be a great piece of evidence to suggest they at least looked at this section of code and made a decision about it. I haven't seen that, but I haven't scoured the forums either.

When it comes to Monks/Shadowknights/Warriors, racial Regeneration is a much bigger helper when it comes to soloing. It will significantly reduce your down times. Outside of soloing, it doesn't really do much. Most racials operate this way: you get the best utility from them when soloing, and lose most of their utility outside of that. FSI is specifically very good for Shamans, because it can save you during the pre-slow period of the fight (the first minute or so), where racial Regeneration is just too slow to save you. You will get a total of 80HP in that minute. When fighting mobs that hit for 140+, that isn't even 1 hit saved. Once the mob is slowed, no racial really matters since the fight is under control, barring any extreme exceptions like getting attacked by other mobs or something.

Is that C or C++ it's hideous looking.

[ya.dingus]

If you're at 10% hp on a failed FD split, you know that regen makes life way easier when you're separated from the group.

Like, way easier. Don't have to wait a billion years or take a risky pop if you just squat for a while and let that 2x regen kick in.

That said, I'm making an erudite SK on green, IDGAF anymore. I want to be fashionquest all the way.

[Jimjam]

Hehe unfortunately you won't be getting that award. OP is really talking about Shamans. He is bringing a conversation from the Priest forums over to here for some strange reason. I guess he didn't think the discussion was getting enough attention since it was off topic from the thread at hand. It became off topic due to him.

To further expand upon how FSI should work, I have included some code from the EQEMU GitHub within the spoiler below. The important code is marked in bold:


bool can_stun = false;
int stunbash_chance = 0; // bonus
if (attacker) {
if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillBash) {
can_stun = true;
if (attacker->IsClient())
stunbash_chance = attacker->spellbonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->itembonuses.StunBashChance +
attacker->aabonuses.StunBashChance;
}
else if (skill_used == EQ::skills::SkillKick &&
(attacker->GetLevel() > 55 || attacker->IsNPC()) && GetClass() == WARRIOR) {
can_stun = true;
}

bool is_immune_to_frontal_stun = false;

if (IsBot() || IsClient() || IsMerc()) {
if (
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}


if (
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
} else if (IsNPC()) {
if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityClasses) &&
IsPlayerClass(GetClass()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityClasses) & GetPlayerClassBit(GetClass())
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}

if (
RuleB(Combat, NPCsUseFrontalStunImmunityRaces) &&
(
(
IsPlayerRace(GetBaseRace()) &&
RuleI(Combat, FrontalStunImmunityRaces) & GetPlayerRaceBit(GetBaseRace())
) ||
GetBaseRace() == RACE_OGGOK_CITIZEN_93
)
) {
is_immune_to_frontal_stun = true;
}
}

if (
is_immune_to_frontal_stun &&
!attacker->BehindMob(this, attacker->GetX(), attacker->GetY())
) {
can_stun = false;
}

if (GetSpecialAbility(UNSTUNABLE)) {
can_stun = false;
}
}
if (can_stun) {
int bashsave_roll = zone->random.Int(0, 100);
if (bashsave_roll > 98 || bashsave_roll > (55 - stunbash_chance)) {
// did stun -- roll other resists
// SE_FrontalStunResist description says any angle now a days
int stun_resist2 = spellbonuses.FrontalStunResist + itembonuses.FrontalStunResist +
aabonuses.FrontalStunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(1, 100) > stun_resist2) {
// stun resist 2 failed
// time to check SE_StunResist and mod2 stun resist
int stun_resist =
spellbonuses.StunResist + itembonuses.StunResist + aabonuses.StunResist;
if (zone->random.Int(0, 100) >= stun_resist) {
// did stun
// nothing else to check!
Stun(2000); // straight 2 seconds every time
}
else {
// stun resist passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, SHAKE_OFF_STUN);
}
}
else {
// stun resist 2 passed!
if (IsClient())
MessageString(Chat::Stun, AVOID_STUNNING_BLOW);
}
}
else {
// main stun failed -- extra interrupt roll
if (IsCasting() &&
!EQ::ValueWithin(casting_spell_id, 859, 1023)) // these spells are excluded
// 90% chance >< -- stun immune won't reach this branch though :(
if (zone->random.Int(0, 9) > 1)
InterruptSpell();
}
}

if (spell_id != SPELL_UNKNOWN && !iBuffTic) {
//see if root will break
if (IsRooted() && !FromDamageShield) // neotoyko: only spells cancel root
TryRootFadeByDamage(buffslot, attacker);
}
else if (spell_id == SPELL_UNKNOWN)
{
//increment chances of interrupting
if (IsCasting()) { //shouldnt interrupt on regular spell damage
attacked_count++;
LogCombat("Melee attack while casting. Attack count [{}]", attacked_count);
}
}


As you can see, if you have FSI, the stun and extra interrupt check are bypassed completely. There is no other code in this function that calls the InterruptSpell() function. This means there is no special code to force interrupt a spell after a stun has been resisted via FSI.

Now, people are going to say "P99 has custom code changes that aren't in the EQEMU repository!", and that is true. But P99 is based on this code, and P99 didn't change every single line of code. If you want to claim that spells always get interrupted after FSI prevents a stun, you need to provide evidence to suggest the P99 developers changed this portion of code. Finding a discussion based on FSI where the developers contributed would be a great piece of evidence to suggest they at least looked at this section of code and made a decision about it. I haven't seen that, but I haven't scoured the forums either.

When it comes to Monks/Shadowknights/Warriors, racial Regeneration is a much bigger helper when it comes to soloing. It will significantly reduce your down times. Outside of soloing, it doesn't really do much. Most racials operate this way: you get the best utility from them when soloing, and lose most of their utility outside of that. FSI is specifically very good for Shamans, because it can save you during the pre-slow period of the fight (the first minute or so), where racial Regeneration is just too slow to save you. You will get a total of 80HP in that minute. When fighting mobs that hit for 140+, that isn't even 1 hit saved. Once the mob is slowed, no racial really matters since the fight is under control, barring any extreme exceptions like getting attacked by other mobs or something.

Even eq emu isn’t classic. Classic eq was janky!

The way bypassing stun checks in classic would work often returned an autointerrupt.

I think the best known one is landing a bash on a giant with a rune would auto interrupt it (because no stun check and no damage done bypassed all the checks so eq went ‘herp derp no checks passed so spell casting is interrupted).

FSI on a sk that would use rune for aggro/damage absorb was actually a draw back!

[Jimjam]

If you're at 10% hp on a failed FD split, you know that regen makes life way easier when you're separated from the group.

Like, way easier. Don't have to wait a billion years or take a risky pop if you just squat for a while and let that 2x regen kick in.

That said, I'm making an erudite SK on green, IDGAF anymore. I want to be fashionquest all the way.

The trick with an erud is to blame every resisted slow, snare, root, stun, charm, etc on that +5 sv magic and be like “an ogre wouldn’t have resisted that (:”.

[Snaggles]

Or the very likely getting stuck in a hallway or zone exit while you die ironically trying to flee and getting stunned.

[Toxigen]

i main a gnome warrior and id never change that to be a big ugly ogre.

that said, you cant drink wort/bark pots when youre stunned.

reducing your chances of being stunned is pretty valuable as a raid tank.

i have an ogre warrior that i wish was gnome or halfling

[Jimjam]

i have an ogre warrior that i wish was gnome or halfling

It’s not the same with nerfs to sneak pulling, 360 sow speed sneak, etc

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is that C or C++ it's hideous looking.

It's C++, but I agree I am not a fan of the coding style lol.



Even eq emu isn’t classic. Classic eq was janky!

The way bypassing stun checks in classic would work often returned an autointerrupt.

I think the best known one is landing a bash on a giant with a rune would auto interrupt it (because no stun check and no damage done bypassed all the checks so eq went ‘herp derp no checks passed so spell casting is interrupted).

FSI on a sk that would use rune for aggro/damage absorb was actually a draw back!

Of course EQEMU isn't classic. But that is what we have to work with, and that is the codebase P99 is based off of. I don't think we will ever get the actual server-side codebase for a build of Everquest in the Classic-Velious era. EQEMU is basically rebuilt from the ground up using packet sniffers as far as I am aware.

I am simply pointing out that the EQEMU codebase doesn't have special spell interrupt code for stuns specifically resisted by FSI. Occam's razor is currently on my side, since the assumption should be the code hasn't changed significantly. Until P99 releases the source code we will never know for sure, but if someone wants to assert the code works differently, they will need to provide some evidence as to why they think that. As I said, a thread discussing FSI where a developer responded would show they were at least thinking about changing the code. Or perhaps patch notes discussing FSI.

[Sizar]

Regen doesn't really do anything past level 20.

Never used a fungi? They must be a real bad item in your view then

[Encroaching Death]

Never used a fungi? They must be a real bad item in your view then

Fungi is a useless and over hyped item.

Really only good until level 10.

I always sell mine once my alt hits 10.

[magnetaress]

I agree troll regen is much better than FSI by a big margin.

[Cen]

I think FSI and Regen are both fine racials, but I think having slam on a natural bash skilled class is really good, but having a kilt and a polar bear form is a racial nobody else can duplicate from barbarians and that is the finest racial known to man or wolf.

[Raj]

Most ogre players are Fat IRL and embracing some closeted body positivity movement in their virtual social life. (Lets face it my friends, if you play this game almost daily for 3+ months, you have almost no social life IRL to speak of and many of your IRL dreams have died a slow existential death or are starting to.)

Arguing ad nauseum about frontal stun immunity and stat benefits is simply cover for embracing a very fat and quite obtrusive character with some traits many of these players likely share IRL

Hope this helps. :cool:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most ogre players are Fat IRL and embracing some closeted body positivity movement in their virtual social life. (Lets face it my friends, if you play this game almost daily for 3+ months, you have almost no social life IRL to speak of and many of your IRL dreams have died a slow existential death or are starting to.)

Arguing ad nauseum about frontal stun immunity and stat benefits is simply cover for embracing a very fat and quite obtrusive character with some traits many of these players likely share IRL

Hope this helps. :cool:

With this logic I assume you believe all those female wood elf druids are fit females in real life:D

[Samoht]

Sneak is easily the most OP and abusable skill in the game. Halflings > all.

Racial regen is #2. Iksar > troll due to extra AC bonus. Kunark clicks suck.

Extra MR from being dorf or erudite is #3.

Match your classes to these racials accordingly.

[Barik]

I agree with OP, on this server for some reason FSI seems pretty useless along with a lot of other things on p99 that make no dam sense to me but its free so /shrugs. But when compared to other emulators such as TAKP it's more telling how nerfed FSI is on here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I agree with OP, on this server for some reason FSI seems pretty useless along with a lot of other things on p99 that make no dam sense to me but its free so /shrugs. But when compared to other emulators such as TAKP it's more telling how nerfed FSI is on here.

Not really sure what nerfs you are referring to. FSI prevents stuns, and as far as I can tell there is no auto interrupt after a resisted stun, so you can finish casting your spell.

It works as advertised. On TAKP they have AAs, so in general everybody is going to be more powerful than P99.

Regeneration is going to be better while leveling, so I agree FSI isn't going to feel great during that process. It is mostly good at the endgame, where Regeneration loses utility. With Shamans specifically, they just get so much Regeneration with Torpor the racial Regeneration is basically unnoticeable.

[Crede]

Not really sure what nerfs you are referring to. FSI prevents stuns, and as far as I can tell there is no auto interrupt after a resisted stun, so you can finish casting your spell.

It works as advertised. On TAKP they have AAs, so in general everybody is going to be more powerful than P99.

Regeneration is going to be better while leveling, so I agree FSI isn't going to feel great during that process. It is mostly good at the endgame, where Regeneration loses utility. With Shamans specifically, they just get so much Regeneration with Torpor the racial Regeneration is basically unnoticeable.

He’s probably referring to how little mobs stun nowadays. Pre nerf it was quite often. Now it’s like ~33% or even less I don’t even notice stuns anymore.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He’s probably referring to how little mobs stun nowadays. Pre nerf it was quite often. Now it’s like ~33% or even less I don’t even notice stuns anymore.

Yeah that is correct, mobs do bash less. I do notice they tend to always bash as their first attack though, so FSI is quite nice when you are casting a spell with a long cast time. Even at max range the mob will close the gap and hit you before the spell finishes. Again that is why FSI is great on Shamans when soloing, it gives you a higher chance to land the initial malo/slow without wasting the 4 or 5 seconds it takes for the mob to run up to you. That will typically end up saving you more HP than the 80 HP or so you would regen in the first minute.

[Crede]

Yeah that is correct, mobs do bash less. I do notice they tend to always bash as their first attack though, so FSI is quite nice when you are casting a spell with a long cast time. Even at max range the mob will close the gap and hit you before the spell finishes. Again that is why FSI is great on Shamans when soloing, it gives you a higher chance to land the initial malo/slow without wasting the 4 or 5 seconds it takes for the mob to run up to you. That will typically end up saving you more HP than the 80 HP or so you would regen in the first minute.

I don’t think anyone doubts the validity of FSI for shaman soloing. But shaman play style goes beyond solo, particularly shines the most in duos where you aren’t tanking. I actually think there’s an argument for iksars being the best overall shaman race which you admitted iksars were tied with ogres in your own tally guide. But needless to say, the debate will never end 😂

[Toxigen]

I mean Iksar is BiS b/c robe. Be a PD robe wearing Lizard and kill literally every single mob that poopybutt ogre can.

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t think anyone doubts the validity of FSI for shaman soloing. But shaman play style goes beyond solo, particularly shines the most in duos where you aren’t tanking. I actually think there’s an argument for iksars being the best overall shaman race which you admitted iksars were tied with ogres in your own tally guide. But needless to say, the debate will never end ��

Racials only really matter when soloing, with the rare exception of a few mechanics like Tunare. No racial is a game changer when doing group/raid content. Your group members are saving you way more time/hp/mana than FSI or Regen ever could.

Iksars are the best Shaman race for raiding, which I explain in my guide. However, most people play Shamans because they can solo, group, and raid equally well. Many classes don't have that advantage. I doubt people are paying 60k+ for Torpor just to raid in most cases. That's a big investment for a focused character.

That is why Iksars end up being the worst Shaman race generally speaking. Losing access to JBB hurts your solo/group play more than the Regen/AC/Character Size helps your raid play, and most Shamans take advantage of their solo/group capabilities.

I mean Iksar is BiS b/c robe. Be a PD robe wearing Lizard and kill literally every single mob that poopybutt ogre can.

/thread

In my opinion plate looks better than robes. Vindi BP is also better statistically. Win/Win.

[Jimjam]

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Awesome feminine fashion choicesBarbariansiksar

[Crede]

Racials only really matter when soloing, with the rare exception of a few mechanics like Tunare. No racial is a game changer when doing group/raid content. Your group members are saving you way more time/hp/mana than FSI or Regen ever could.

Iksars are the best Shaman race for raiding, which I explain in my guide. However, most people play Shamans because they can solo, group, and raid equally well. Many classes don't have that advantage. I doubt people are paying 60k+ for Torpor just to raid in most cases. That's a big investment for a focused character.

That is why Iksars end up being the worst Shaman race generally speaking. Losing access to JBB hurts your solo/group play more than the Regen/AC/Character Size helps your raid play, and most Shamans take advantage of their solo/group capabilities.



In my opinion plate looks better than robes. Vindi BP is also better statistically. Win/Win.

Racials definitely matter when not soloing. A 60 iksar/troll shaman will potentially regenerate 19,200 more hp in a 4 hour grind session than an ogre/barb shaman. This is not insignificant.

Also, it is debatable if Vindi BP is actually better than Robe for shaman play. Robe has a lot more mana with 20 wis/100 mana, which will allow you potentially swap out for more hp items sooner as well. Iksar could make up some of that AC difference as well. And AC is largely irrelevant for a shaman in the raid scene anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Racials definitely matter when not soloing. A 60 iksar/troll shaman will potentially regenerate 19,200 more hp in a 4 hour grind session than an ogre/barb shaman. This is not insignificant.

Also, it is debatable if Vindi BP is actually better than Robe for shaman play. Robe has a lot more mana with 20 wis/100 mana, which will allow you potentially swap out for more hp items sooner as well. Iksar could make up some of that AC difference as well. And AC is largely irrelevant for a shaman in the raid scene anyway.

The math is 4800 HP per hour in terms of how much HP a Troll/Iksar gets at 60, assuming they never hit 100% HP (unlikely). Not saying your 19200 math is wrong over 4 hours, but it can be a bit deceiving if people don't read the 4 hour part. 4800 HP per hour is simply 3-4 Torpors, depending on if you get a 1500HP Torpor or a 1200 HP Torpor. That is saving you 1.5-2 minutes per hour max. There really isn't any level 60 content that will benefit from saving 1.5-2 minutes per hour. The spawn times are just too long. You basically need to play 10+ hours to maybe get an extra spawn cycle out of it. The main problem with Everquest is long spawn timers limit how efficient something like regeneration is.

Vindi BP is almost always better than Robe. Max mana isn't terribly useful when you have Cannibalize. The only time Robe is better is when you are raiding, because you will have a few more heals available when you are chain Chloroblasting a tank.

[Toxigen]

Also, it is debatable if Vindi BP is actually better than Robe for shaman play. Robe has a lot more mana with 20 wis/100 mana, which will allow you potentially swap out for more hp items sooner as well. Iksar could make up some of that AC difference as well. And AC is largely irrelevant for a shaman in the raid scene anyway.

I agree with mostly everything you contribute...but the real argument to make here is its such a small difference in stats that even if Vindi BP is mathematically better it doesn't matter because Robe > All

That is, if you have access to PD. Hell, I'd farm a Guardian Robe just to look baller while doing shaman things. Still going to be able to do anything and everything b/c torpor op.

[Danth]

I'm not interested in cross-dressing, even virtually, so whether or not my guy can wear a dress has no appeal nor relevance to me.

Mana pool on a shaman matters when you want to do something where you might be facing a lot of resists and don't have time to cannibalize. Something like Kerdelb duo, sometimes it chain-resists and it hits too hard to let your melee keep getting hit unslowed forever while you gradually torpor up. Neither racial regeneration nor bash resist is going to make any difference in that situation.

On my shadowknight I'd rather have racial regeneration for things like heal regain while meditating or recovery while feigned. Bash resist might be nice for raid pulling but that's way too specific for my preference. As it is my SK's a human and has neither and he does the job to satisfaction anyhow.

Danth

[Chortles Snortles]

I'm not interested in cross-dressing, even virtually, so whether or not my guy can wear a dress has no appeal nor relevance to me.

https://i.imgur.com/B4puxtG.jpg

[Cen]

Instead of posting my sailor moon crossplay, I will just quietly say that Barbarian's wear a Kilt, not a dress, and nothing in the game can replicate their superior polar bear form illusion.

[Ennewi]

Instead of being a racial, FSI would have been a decent addition to having a shield equipped.

[Crede]

Instead of being a racial, FSI would have been a decent addition to having a shield equipped.

Ya problem is every class can use a shield so that’s a little OP. But would have been cool to give tanks a special skill for that. If we ever could get some blue custom content…

[yorumi]

Ya problem is every class can use a shield so that’s a little OP. But would have been cool to give tanks a special skill for that. If we ever could get some blue custom content…

Would be kind of neat if something like 150 Bash skill gave FSI while using a shield. Would really just give it to tanks but they're the only ones who should have it anyway.

[Ennewi]

Poorly worded, sorry. Thread in tank forum category, so was a lazy reference to knights/warriors only rather than all classes. Shields with procs wouldn't have been bad either, giving more reason for knights to opt for sword and board in lieu of 2h damage output and provided warriors another avenue for procs, with yet more items to compare and consider even though shields do very little in the way of white damage.

[reznor_]

The move is to have an ogre with a guise. That's what I did because dark elf is the best race. If I had not gotten a guise before they stopped dropping, I would have rerolled to a dark elf warrior.

I didn't read all the other replies but I'll throw in my 2 cents: FSI is nice when tanking raid stuff especially because it allows me a chance to generate more threat earlier. But is it make or break? No, because I am generally aware of whats happening and I have 3 seconds to land an aggro click.

For emergencies like when idiot pull teams bring in too many mobs, it's nice to have to try and snatch up threat faster. It's a nice little trait, but if I didn't have it, I can live with out it. I don't really care about regeneration because I don't solo and I use a cleric to heal me like a real man would.

[Snaggles]

The only thing that matters in this game is if you like the way you look.

Assuming same class/level/relative gear, past your own warm feels about your character, literally everything else is overrated. Gnome and elf warriors frequently tank AoW…

[Ripqozko]

The only thing that matters in this game is if you like the way you look.

Assuming same class/level/relative gear, past your own warm feels about your character, literally everything else is overrated. Gnome and elf warriors frequently tank AoW…

aow was done in kunark gear, we are in year 8 of velious, none of this matters. you are correct.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

aow was done in kunark gear, we are in year 8 of velious, none of this matters. you are correct.

Solo and Raid content are different. Gearing/stats matter more in solo. Itemization is also fun for players in an RPG.

[Snaggles]

Solo and Raid content are different. Gearing/stats matter more in solo. Itemization is also fun for players in an RPG.

Gnome warriors roll around with 40% spell haste.
Small SK’s don’t have a 15 or 20% penalty.

Arguably small players level faster solo. Raid gear equals the playing field (my 70sta pally overcaps). Group content is well, trivial, because blue cons with a group is easy unless you are horrible.

Races are just different colors of M&M’s.

[Ripqozko]

Gnome warriors roll around with 40% spell haste.
Small SK’s don’t have a 15 or 20% penalty.

Arguably small players level faster solo. Raid gear equals the playing field (my 70sta pally overcaps). Group content is well, trivial, because blue cons with a group is easy unless you are horrible.

Races are just different colors of M&M’s.

Agreed gnome is superior level and solo race purely for 40% haste buff. No racial will equal that. 20% more then eye patch for basically free.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Agreed gnome is superior level and solo race purely for 40% haste buff. No racial will equal that. 20% more then eye patch for basically free.

Oh yeah, for warriors Gnome is great with the clockwork arms. I am running that myself for my baby warrior. FSI matters more for different classes. I think FSI is best for Shamans, for Warriors and Shadowknights it isn't as great.

[greatdane]

A lot of this is either demonstrably incorrect or pointlessly misleading.


- Ogre classes do not parse higher than their other race counter parts when stat capped.

Ther are no ogre DPS classes and there's no point parsing the tank's DPS. FSI only comes into play when tanking. It's an undisputable fact that if you don't get stunned, you won't miss out on swings that would have occurred when stunned as another race; but it isn't a very big difference.

- There is no statistical margin that has been proven that shows ogres die less than other races because of FSI

That's because FSI does not affect raw survivability. It's a convenience that prevents you going into spin mode if you happened to be repositioning when you got bashed, or to avoid having your casts interrupted as SK/shaman. The lack of statistics doesn't prove it makes no difference. Every time an ogre shaman has successfully cast a spell that prevented a death but would have been interrupted if he were not an ogre, FSI caused one fewer death to happen. It's a non-zero number of times. Nobody has kept count.

- There is no statistical results that show Ogre shaman are anymore successful at solo challenges than their counter parts

Nobody is recording statistics like that. There's also no statistic that proves characters with SoW can run from Kelethin to Felwithe in less time than characters with jboots... because it's not something anyone has ever felt the need to ascertain. It is an undeniable fact that avoiding stuns from bash is helpful for soloing. It's pants-on-head idiotic to claim otherwise. The only question is whether one finds it more helpful than what the other races get, and that's a matter of personal opinion. Denying its existense is insanity.



FSI fails to be useful anytime a creature is:
Slowed
Kicking instead of bashing because they have access to it
You're not face tanking it



And CH fails to be useful if nobody is taking damage, snare fails to be useful if the mob isn't being kited or runs at low HP, backstab fails to be useful if you're not behind the mob, etc. Meaningless drivel.

- Bash still stops you from casting even if you're not stunned

Only a small percent of the time. The majority of the time, bash will not interrupt if you have FSI. I'd say it's like a 60-70% chance to avoid interruption.


- Situational Vacuums have to be created to justify FSI:

What if there are 4 mobs on you, just back into a wall and you can cast!
(If there are 4, at level mobs on you in end game, you're dead even if you get a single spell off. That's just fact.)
(Maybe there is a case for FD, but chances are if you're in a high level dungeon, there's a caster, and if you're waiting for the perfect time to FD because you dont want it breaking in spell hit, you're dead most likely anyway.)
What if you're trying to heal with the last second heal, and you get bashed and
die!
(Why didn't you heal before you got that low? At best, it's a 2% situation encounter)


More made-up nonsense. FSI is useful literally every single time you get bashed while casting and it prevented the interruption that other races would have suffered.

There's only one thing you can count FSI doing that is actually reliable:
- Keeping you from being knocked back by tunare. That's it. It's the only thing you can count on for it. Everything else is hyperbole, or inaccuracy.

...or, you know, literally every single time throughout your character's life that you get bashed while casting a spell and it prevented interruption. It's rich for you to call out "hyoperbole or inaccuracy" when your post is literally nothing but that. If you're trying to say that an ability has no value unless it's guaranteed to work every time, you must also believe that parry, dodge, melee attacks, and the entire metaphysical concept of chance is non-existent. If something's helpful a lot of the time, you can't just ignore the times it's helpful and decide that only the times it didn't matter count.

Seriously, why are we taking advice from players who show the same IQ score as their character's stat screen.

Pretty sure my ogre is smarter than you.

OP made a non-ogre shaman and is grasping for copium to convince himself he isn't missing out on anything.

[Snaggles]

Ogre warriors (or any 60 warrior) can dps just fine. People tanking don’t dps; while dpsing you arent tanking. Different weapons and discs.

The one thing that most people agree on is their race choice is the best. People who play ogres, trolls, and Iksars tend to be theoretical min-maxers more than looking for the RP or lore elements. They struggle to come to grips that their choice which was strictly for superiority isn’t that superior after all. In general they are less likely to find joy in self-deprecating humor because of this pixel yard-stick of how they are better inherently than another ___ race of their same class.

Are racial perks real? Yes.
Do they make a notable difference? Rarely.

Just pick a race. Pick a class. Get good at it.


Ps: Paladins get a spell called Divine Purpose. It trades 8hp regen for 3mana. Wanna guess how much of the time we use it at 60, lol? Hint: I forgot the name and had to look it up.

[ya.dingus]

https://i.imgur.com/Xg6ZjNk.png

[Ripqozko]

if you cant wear a PD robe then you already chose wrong race, hope that helps. My pally looks much better wearing it then your ogre ever will.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

if you cant wear a PD robe then you already chose wrong race, hope that helps. My pally looks much better wearing it then your ogre ever will.

Wearing robes is silly on plate classes. Plate looks way cooler.

I wish there were more plate fashion sets for casters. Full Efreeti always looks great.

[Ripqozko]

Wearing robes is silly on plate classes. Plate looks way cooler.

I wish there were more plate fashion sets for casters. Full Efreeti always looks great.

Its ok to be wrong sometimes, this is one of those times. hope that helps.

[Jimjam]

My 59 warrior has been hit by bash from lava duct crawlers 301 times (while playing on one of my laptops) in February and got stunned 3 times.

Edit there were 1095 missed bashes making 1396 bash attempts in total.

0.2% of bash attempts resulted in a stun. I haven't controlled for facing on these, just assumed they were all to the front.

From a bottomfeeding solo tank perspective FSI is not doing much.

[Jimjam]

That is 88 kills, which at 3 minutes per kill is about 4 hours 24 mins of tanking.

To make the same xp, and avoid those three stuns, an ogre would have had to spend almost an hour more killing spiders. Obviously that extra time would not be a problem if you are playing EQ for the enjoyment of it, but an impediment if you are rushing through levels (in which case you probably wouldn't be soloing LDCs at 59 anyway).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My 59 warrior has been hit by bash from lava duct crawlers 301 times (while playing on one of my laptops) in February and got stunned 3 times.

Edit there were 1095 missed bashes making 1396 bash attempts in total.

0.2% of bash attempts resulted in a stun. I haven't controlled for facing on these, just assumed they were all to the front.

From a bottomfeeding solo tank perspective FSI is not doing much.

That is a very small sample size, so it isn't a good indicator of stun chance.

I have 4000 recorded kills on my Shadowknight, levels 55-58. He is mostly killing mobs in the low 40s as well, which roughly matches with your LDC example.

Here is the data:

Troll SK 55-58
===============
4000 total kills

448 total stuns from bashes

6519 successful bashes

12040 missed bashes

2262 successful kicks

4678 missed kicks

This shows that 70% of bash/kick attempts are bashes. 25499 x 0.7 = 17849, and the total number of bash attempts were 18,559. The numbers are close enough to be pretty confident 70% is the average, and I got bashed slightly above the average.

For stun chance, that is (448/6519) x 100 = 6.87% chance to be stunned per successful bash. 6.87 x 0.7 (chance to bash over kick) = 4.8%, which is probably round-able to 5%.

So for a high 50s tank fighting mobs in the low 40s, your chance to be stunned is around 5% per bash/kick attempt.

However, this lower stun chance may be due to the level difference between yourself and the mob. The level difference is 10+ levels generally speaking in both of our cases.

For my lower level characters, my chance to be stunned is much higher. This is probably due to them mostly soloing mobs that are only plus or minus 2 levels.

Human Enchanter 13-30
=======================
578 total kills

452 total stuns from bashes

1313 successful bashes

830 missed bashes

567 successful kicks

356 missed kicks

Gnome Warrior 1-24
==================
1194 total kills

377 total stuns from bashes

1408 successful bashes

1812 missed bashes

578 successful kicks

733 missed kicks

Iksar Monk 10-40
=================
1547 total kills

1471 total stuns from bashes

4058 successful bashes

4529 missed bashes

1878 successful kicks

2116 missed kicks

Aggregate:
=======
3,319 total kills

2300 stuns from bashes

6,779 successful bashes

7,171 missed bashes

3,023 successful kicks

3,205 missed kicks

This also shows bashes land 70% of the time. 20,178 x 0.7 = 14,124.6, which is close to 13,950, the total number of bash attempts.

In this case, each bash has a (2300/6779) x 100 = 34% chance to stun per successful bash.

This means the total bash chance is 34 x 0.7 = 24% chance to be stunned per bash/kick attempt.

TLDR

When the mob is more than 10 levels below your character, you have a 5% chance to be stunned per bash/kick attempt.

When the mob is 0-3 levels lower or 1-2 levels higher than your character, you have a 24% chance to be stunned per bash/kick attempt.

The average of the two is around 15%, so that is probably the chance to be stunned roughly speaking when fighting a mob somewhere around 5-8 levels below yourself.

[Toxigen]

Its ok to be wrong sometimes, this is one of those times. hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Agreed. You're robe fashion ideas are way off:D

[Crede]

We really need Luclin models, particularly for Ogres.

[Ripqozko]

Agreed. You're robe fashion ideas are way off:D

Your, hope that helps. It's OK to be wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I forgot to add in the miss chance. Will repost with that modification, for clarity.

I have 4000 recorded kills on my Shadowknight, levels 55-58. He is mostly killing mobs in the low 40s as well, which roughly matches with your LDC example.

Here is the data:

Troll SK 55-58
===============
4000 total kills

448 total stuns from bashes

6519 successful bashes

12040 missed bashes

2262 successful kicks

4678 missed kicks

592 dodged bashes

881 parried bashes

707 riposted bashes

This shows that 70% of bash/kick attempts are bashes. 25499 x 0.7 = 17849, and the total number of bash attempts were 18,559. The numbers are close enough to be pretty confident 70% is the average, and I got bashed slightly above the average.

For stun chance, that is (448/6519) x 100 = 6.87% chance to be stunned per successful bash. 6.87 x 0.7 (chance to bash over kick) = 4.8%. The chance to hit was ((6519/18,559) x 100) = 35%, therefore 4.8 x 0.35 = 1.7% chance.

1588 bashes were riposted/parried, and roughly half of the dodges would be taken off due to casters having 75 dodge max. This means roughly 1800 bashes would have gone through the normal hit/miss system for casters. We would add roughly 600 hits and subtract 1200 misses based on the current data. So ((7,119/17,359) x 100) = 41% chance to be hit as a caster. Therefore 4.8 x 0.41 = 2% chance.

So for a high 50s character fighting mobs in the low 40s, your chance to be stunned is around 1.7% per bash/kick attempt for melee classes, and 2% for caster classes.

However, this lower stun chance may be due to the level difference between yourself and the mob. The level difference is 10+ levels generally speaking in both of our cases.

For my lower level characters, my chance to be stunned is much higher. This is probably due to them mostly soloing mobs that are only plus or minus 2 levels.

Human Enchanter 13-30
=======================
578 total kills

452 total stuns from bashes

1313 successful bashes

830 missed bashes

567 successful kicks

356 missed kicks

Gnome Warrior 1-24
==================
1194 total kills

377 total stuns from bashes

1408 successful bashes

1812 missed bashes

578 successful kicks

733 missed kicks

Iksar Monk 10-40
=================
1547 total kills

1471 total stuns from bashes

4058 successful bashes

4529 missed bashes

1878 successful kicks

2116 missed kicks

Aggregate:
=======
3,319 total kills

2300 stuns from bashes

6,779 successful bashes

7,171 missed bashes

3,023 successful kicks

3,205 missed kicks

This also shows bashes land 70% of the time. 20,178 x 0.7 = 14,124.6, which is close to 13,950, the total number of bash attempts.

In this case, each bash has a (2300/6779) x 100 = 34% chance to stun per successful bash.

The chance to hit was ((6,779/13,950) x 100) = 49%.

This means the total bash chance is ((34 x 0.7) x 0.49) = 12% chance to be stunned per bash/kick attempt as a melee class.

The difference on my Shadowknight data between casters and non-casters was roughly 17% (41% chance to hit/35% chance to hit), so 12 x 1.17 = 14% chance to be stunned per bash/kick attempt as a caster class.

TLDR

When the mob is more than 10 levels below your character, you have a 1.7% per bash/kick attempt for melee classes, and 2% for caster classes.

When the mob is 0-3 levels lower or 1-2 levels higher than your character, you have a 12% chance to be stunned per bash/kick attempt for melee classes, and roughly a 14% for caster classes.

The average of the two is around 7-8%, so that is probably the chance to be stunned roughly speaking when fighting a mob somewhere around 5-8 levels below yourself.

[Jimjam]

For stun chance, that is (448/6519) x 100 = 6.87% chance to be stunned per successful bash. 6.87 x 0.7 (chance to bash over kick) = 4.8%, which is probably round-able to 5%. this math has ignored the misses when considering the chance for a bash/kick timer to stun.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

this math has ignored the misses when considering the chance for a bash/kick timer to stun.

I just posted a new version with the added miss chances, you are correct I forgot to take that into account. Please read https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3568975&postcount=85 .

[Jimjam]

Yea that may have been my fault for confusing you - many of my fight will have been with evasive which may have confounded so i eliminated.

I’m gonna whip out my stats book later and find the z number for a .2% occurrence for a 5% expected on 300 trials.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea that may have been my fault for confusing you - many of my fight will have been with evasive which may have confounded so i eliminated.

I’m gonna whip out my stats book later and find the z number for a .2% occurrence for a 5% expected on 300 trials.

Ah yes, that makes sense. I am not including disciplines into the FSI calculations, simply because they are more situational. But I do agree for Warriors specifically that is a good thing to include. It doesn't really apply to Shamans, which is what OP is really complaining about, even though he put this thread in the tank section hehe.

[Jimjam]

Right, Gamparse isn't really working how it should for tanking on my logs. Got a better parser? I'm not gonna count all my bashes / stuns manually again - it took ages for 301 bash hits!

looking at an older log, the warrior got stunned 165 times, 11 of those seem to be from sonic bat hits (I couldn't filter to just LDCs sadly). There were probably a few more stuns from other sources too (stone spider, spectres, etc).

If we call it 150-160 stuns from bash. Got hit by bash 1677 times (5606 missed bashes) then that is about a 10% stun rate for bash hits (2.2% including misses, 1.54% including chance to kick). Note for some of this log war is level 58 as well as 59.

I lost a bunch of my logs, but I do have more on another computer. Will check those out if I can find them, especially if i can find a better fight parser that works for p99!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Right, Gamparse isn't really working how it should for tanking on my logs. Got a better parser? I'm not gonna count all my bashes / stuns manually again - it took ages for 301 bash hits!

looking at an older log, the warrior got stunned 165 times, 11 of those seem to be from sonic bat hits (I couldn't filter to just LDCs sadly). There were probably a few more stuns from other sources too (stone spider, spectres, etc).

If we call it 150-160 stuns from bash. Got hit by bash 1677 times (5606 missed bashes) then that is about a 10% stun rate for bash hits (2.2% including misses, 1.54% including chance to kick). Note for some of this log war is level 58 as well as 59.

I lost a bunch of my logs, but I do have more on another computer. Will check those out if I can find them, especially if i can find a better fight parser that works for p99!

You can just download a program like notepad++, open all the logs, and do a "find all in documents" for "bashes you", " bash you", "kicks you", " kick you", and "you are stunned". It will show you the number of search results.

For my data I wasn't really fighting casters that stun, so I don't have many (if any) false positives there.

EDIT: Oh actually you could get all the "you are stunned" messages and subtract the number of sonic bat proc messages, for example. Same with spell hit text.

[Ripqozko]

Imagine being this hard up about racials in a 24 year old elf sim, inb4 992 more posts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Imagine being this hard up about racials in a 24 year old elf sim, inb4 992 more posts.

Imagine counting your own "sorry you don't got warder loot" messages by randomly posting in threads.

[Ripqozko]

991

[Jimjam]

EDIT: Oh actually you could get all the "you are stunned" messages and subtract the number of sonic bat proc messages, for example. Same with spell hit text.

ah I forgot they have their own message for when they cast - that will help!

I found an old log back up from level 54, it has a bunch of velks and solb imps mobs mixed in, and soloing bats instead of LDCs, but it seems to have a much higher stun/bash than the 59 or 58/59 logs.

[Naethyn]

Someone told me ogre dps is top tier on red with dagarn bow and weighted axe.

[Allishia]

Vindi does stun a lot to be fair, but that is really only mob that has spun me around before :p

[Duik]

He is Vindictive, revenge motivated.

[Jimjam]

level stuns spelstn bshstun bshmis bshhit bshtry stun/bshhit stun/bshtry stun per kick/bash try
54 52 32 20 501 181 682 0.1104972376 0.0293255132 0.02052785924
55-59 165 105 60 5528 1677 7205 0.03577817531 0.008327550312 0.005829285219
59 39 22 17 2350 717 3067 0.02370990237 0.005542875774 0.003880013042
total 256 159 97 8379 2575 10954 0.03766990291 0.008855212708 0.006198648895


Largely a mix of bnb/imps/freeti with a bit of velks/kc trash thrown in

The stun / bash hit, bash try and kick/bash try are probabilities, not percentages.

It is assumed all stuns are due to frontal bashes except those caused by sonic bat and stone spider procs as well as heal pots. This means the chance to be stunned by frontal bash is overestimated (kicks from 55+ warrior PCs, stuns from hits to rear, any other kind of proc/spell stun etc have not been discounted).

The table is constructed this way because those are the ways the logs were chunked, not cos i was trying to show difference in the levels.

[Encroaching Death]

Man, you guys are still arguing about this?

lol

[Jimjam]

I don’t think this is an argument as much as an exploratory conversation?

[Encroaching Death]

I don’t think this is an argument as much as an exploratory conversation?

I tried saying the same thing to my ex-wife but that wouldn't save the marriage

<live studio audience laughter>

[Jimjam]

:D

[Snaggles]

Well, I guess we are coming to the conclusion it rarely happens.
Hasn't made a noticable difference via life or death results.
Hasn't stopped people from saccing non-ogres and rerolling.

11 pages to realize the title of the thread is pretty accurate. Maybe amend to "all racial perks are overrated garb, just play the game".

[Naethyn]

I like getting bashed. It’s part of the tanking experience and it gives me time to think.

[Duik]

You just bashful.

[Keebz]

While I agree FSI is much overrated, people don't value it because it's good when grinding low blues, people value it because it prevents bash stuns during high value situations (e.g. when killing dragons, dungeon bosses, raid mobs, etc.). Those high level mobs stun you a lot more and when you get stunned, it's a lot more precarious. For example, FSI is legitimately useful when you're trying to position and build aggro on a raid mob.

[Jimjam]

Oh yeah, i imagine FSI would be particularly useful in HoT / Wexit where you may have 2 or 3 60 + mobs, a bunch of fatigued DPS players overeager to start fighting but you have to move the mobs around to different places depending on their AoE / flee behaviours.

I've tanked them a lot without FSI and you're going through so many high level bashers per session that it is noticable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

While I agree FSI is much overrated, people don't value it because it's good when grinding low blues, people value it because it prevents bash stuns during high value situations (e.g. when killing dragons, dungeon bosses, raid mobs, etc.). Those high level mobs stun you a lot more and when you get stunned, it's a lot more precarious. For example, FSI is legitimately useful when you're trying to position and build aggro on a raid mob.

Yeah, I think a lot of people who "bash" FSI don't have level 60 characters, or if they do they have some regret about their race.

As I keep saying over and over, FSI is best for 60 Shamans with Torpor. On the tanking side, FSI is better than Regeneration when you are in a group/raid, since Regeneration often times isn't doing much due to you having a healer.

For Shamans without Torpor, or soloing tanks, Regeneration is better.

[Ripqozko]

Yeah, I think a lot of people who "bash" FSI don't have level 60 characters, or if they do they have some regret about their race.

As I keep saying over and over, FSI is best for 60 Shamans with Torpor. On the tanking side, FSI is better than Regeneration when you are in a group/raid, since Regeneration often times isn't doing much due to you having a healer.

For Shamans without Torpor, or soloing tanks, Regeneration is better.

989

[Crede]

Yeah, I think a lot of people who "bash" FSI don't have level 60 characters, or if they do they have some regret about their race.

As I keep saying over and over, FSI is best for 60 Shamans with Torpor. On the tanking side, FSI is better than Regeneration when you are in a group/raid, since Regeneration often times isn't doing much due to you having a healer.

For Shamans without Torpor, or soloing tanks, Regeneration is better.

This advice is misleading. FSI is best for "Soloing" 60 Shamans with Torpor, which I don't think anyone is trying to dispute.

For duos/trios/groups/raids FSI is basically useless on a shaman. The extra regen will prove more useful than an ultra rare situation where FSI might come in handy with a clutch slow in a group situation. And the extra regen means more mana which is what is needed in these scenarios.

This is why the shaman racial debate is so situational. You cannot say one race is best for all situations vs something like an iksar monk.

[Allishia]

I can confirm dark elf is best race for war. /nod

[Encroaching Death]

Yeah, I think a lot of people who "bash" FSI

https://media.tenor.com/9NPbx2HWDrQAAAAC/i-see-what-you-did-there-akeem.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This advice is misleading. FSI is best for "Soloing" 60 Shamans with Torpor, which I don't think anyone is trying to dispute.

For duos/trios/groups/raids FSI is basically useless on a shaman. The extra regen will prove more useful than an ultra rare situation where FSI might come in handy with a clutch slow in a group situation. And the extra regen means more mana which is what is needed in these scenarios.

This is why the shaman racial debate is so situational. You cannot say one race is best for all situations vs something like an iksar monk.

It isn't misleading. Regeneration is typically a very small bonus in groups because you have a healer. If you want to argue a non-standard duo like a Warrior/Rogue, then sure, Regeneration would still be better. But I think it is pretty safe to assume most people are going to be making somewhat "normal" groups, which will have a healer. Even when Shaman is the healer, you are saving WAY more HP (mana) by simply having a tank, which means you aren't taking the damage yourself, and you don't need to spend mana on DPS spells.

You can easily say one racial is the best, because it fits what most players do. Most Shamans like to solo with their Shamans, because Shamans have great solo capability. It is the rare case that Shamans mostly group/raid. This means the best racial for Shamans is the one best suited for soloing.

It isn't a very good argument to say "nothing can ever be the best, because there is always one fringe case where it isn't".

[Jimjam]

:confused: I think the irony is that on a tank with regen, FSI is better because they can tackle slightly harder xp mobs, whereas on a tank with FSI regen is better as FSI is less needed on weaker mobs

[DeathsSilkyMist]

:confused: I think the irony is that on a tank with regen, FSI is better because they can tackle slightly harder xp mobs, whereas on a tank with FSI regen is better as FSI is less needed on weaker mobs

Yeah that is basically what I am saying. When you are soloing for XP to get to level 60, Regeneration is better than FSI because you are typically killing things 10+ levels below you (such as your LDC example). You want more kills per hour, and Regeneration enables that. Once you are in a group scenario (tackling harder XP mobs), then FSI is better because you already have a healer enabling your group to kill a ton of stuff per hour.

[Crede]

It isn't misleading. Regeneration is typically a very small bonus in groups because you have a healer. If you want to argue a non-standard duo like a Warrior/Rogue, then sure, Regeneration would still be better. But I think it is pretty safe to assume most people are going to be making somewhat "normal" groups, which will have a healer. Even when Shaman is the healer, you are saving WAY more HP (mana) by simply having a tank, which means you aren't taking the damage yourself, and you don't need to spend mana on DPS spells.

You can easily say one racial is the best, because it fits what most players do. Most Shamans like to solo with their Shamans, because Shamans have great solo capability. It is the rare case that Shamans mostly group/raid. This means the best racial for Shamans is the one best suited for soloing.

It isn't a very good argument to say "nothing can ever be the best, because there is always one fringe case where it isn't".

This is a subjective statement, unless you have data to prove otherwise. There are plenty of shamans at 60 who mostly duo/trio/group/raid. Shamans shine the most in duo's/trios where you can really stretch the limits, and these are most of the shamans I know. If you want to really be a solo god, play an Enchanter. I think you just specifically like to spend more time soloing at 60, but shouldn't be applied to shaman play as a whole.

You’re also arguing that the min max for shamans is soloing which by design is incorrect. Shamans are a support class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is a subjective statement, unless you have data to prove otherwise. There are plenty of shamans at 60 who mostly duo/trio/group/raid. Shamans shine the most in duo's/trios where you can really stretch the limits, and these are most of the shamans I know. If you want to really be a solo god, play an Enchanter. I think you just specifically like to spend more time soloing at 60, but shouldn't be applied to shaman play as a whole.

I didn't say there aren't Shamans who don't solo:) I said most Shamans like to solo in addition to grouping/raiding. You don't need data to understand this point. Shamans are one of the few classes that can solo/group/raid equally well across all level ranges. Same with Enchanter. Most players aren't going to spend 60k+ on Torpor without also wanting to solo. A lot of people don't have multiple level 60 characters, so one enticing reason to make a Shaman or Enchanter is you can have one level 60 that can do everything.

In duo/group situations there are plenty of times where FSI can be useful on a Shaman, since you may need to off-tank something. I rarely use Fungi Tunic/Regrowth anymore in solo or group situations, and I don't lose any time. If losing 30 hp/tick isn't a problem, losing 8 hp/tick isn't a problem.


You’re also arguing that the min max for shamans is soloing which by design is incorrect. Shamans are a support class.


Design is irrelevant to how the class actually plays. Shamans can solo better than most classes, even though they are a support class. By your logic Rogues should be good soloers, since they are designed as a DPS class. I am pretty sure Enchanters were also supposed to be support classes by design.

[Ripqozko]

I didn't say there aren't Shamans who don't solo:) I said most Shamans like to solo in addition to grouping/raiding. You don't need data to understand this point. Shamans are one of the few classes that can solo/group/raid equally well across all level ranges. Same with Enchanter. Most players aren't going to spend 60k+ on Torpor without also wanting to solo. A lot of people don't have multiple level 60 characters, so one enticing reason to make a Shaman or Enchanter is you can have one level 60 that can do everything.

In duo/group situations there are plenty of times where FSI can be useful on a Shaman, since you may need to off-tank something. I rarely use Fungi Tunic/Regrowth anymore in solo or group situations, and I don't lose any time. If losing 30 hp/tick isn't a problem, losing 8 hp/tick isn't a problem.



Design is irrelevant to how the class actually plays. Shamans can solo better than most classes, even though they are a support class. By your logic Rogues should be good soloers, since they are designed as a DPS class. I am pretty sure Enchanters were also supposed to be support classes by design.

988

[Crede]

I didn't say there aren't Shamans who don't solo:) I said most Shamans like to solo in addition to grouping/raiding. You don't need data to understand this point. Shamans are one of the few classes that can solo/group/raid equally well across all level ranges. Same with Enchanter. Most players aren't going to spend 60k+ on Torpor without also wanting to solo. A lot of people don't have multiple level 60 characters, so one enticing reason to make a Shaman or Enchanter is you can have one level 60 that can do everything.

In duo/group situations there are plenty of times where FSI can be useful on a Shaman, since you may need to off-tank something. I rarely use Fungi Tunic/Regrowth anymore in solo or group situations, and I don't lose any time. If losing 30 hp/tick isn't a problem, losing 8 hp/tick isn't a problem.



Design is irrelevant to how the class actually plays. Shamans can solo better than most classes, even though they are a support class. By your logic Rogues should be good soloers, since they are designed as a DPS class. I am pretty sure Enchanters were also supposed to be support classes by design.

Ah shifting goalposts again I see.

Now you are claiming Shamans like to solo in addition to grouping/raiding. Before you were saying shamans spend most of their time soloing instead of mostly grouping/raiding. Which one is it?

Just because shamans can solo, doesn't mean it is what they do the majority of the time. The mere fact that you admit they do other things means we have no idea what they spend the most time doing, but yet you argue in favor of FSI which is 99% a solo benefit when it comes to shamans.


Design is irrelevant to how the class actually plays. Shamans can solo better than most classes, even though they are a support class. By your logic Rogues should be good soloers, since they are designed as a DPS class. I am pretty sure Enchanters were also supposed to be support classes by design.

This is a really bad analogy. Rogues being a dps class has nothing to do with soloing. Shamans are a support class, and that is where they shine the most. Doesn't mean they can't do other things, but you're arguing in favor of a solo shaman, but this isn't where you see their most potential. This is expected, because they were designed as a support class. Similarily, while rogues can solo, a class solely designed as a dps class will not shine the most soloing. We also know things are broke with Enchanters and likely not classic here, such as channeling & how reliable charm is. Same with monks, as they were eventually nerfed in Luclin.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah shifting goalposts again I see.

Now you are claiming Shamans like to solo in addition to grouping/raiding. Before you were saying shamans spend most of their time soloing instead of mostly grouping/raiding. Which one is it?


I didn't shift the goalposts, you misread what I said. Where did I say "they mostly solo" in this quote?


Most Shamans like to solo with their Shamans, because Shamans have great solo capability. It is the rare case that Shamans mostly group/raid.


What I am saying here is the majority of shamans aren't spending the majority of their time grouping/raiding. They are also spending a good amount of time soloing. They aren't like Rogues, where they basically must group/raid. That isn't me saying "mostly soloing". But I know it is easier just to claim "moving goalposts" than to actually make a valid point. You need to stop trying to "gotcha" people, and try to win with facts and logic.


Just because shamans can solo, doesn't mean it is what they do the majority of the time. The mere fact that you admit they do other things means we have no idea what they spend the most time doing, but yet you argue in favor of FSI which is 99% a solo benefit when it comes to shamans.

This is a really bad analogy. Rogues being a dps class has nothing to do with soloing. Shamans are a support class, and that is where they shine the most. Doesn't mean they can't do other things, but you're arguing in favor of a solo shaman, but this isn't where you see their most potential. This is expected, because they were designed as a support class. Similarily, while rogues can solo, a class solely designed as a dps class will not shine the most soloing.

No, it is not a bad analogy. You are trying to claim "support classes" aren't designed to solo, which is nonsensical. There is nothing intrinsic about a "support class" that means they can't solo. Again, Enchanters are also "support classes".

If anything "dps classes" should be better at soloing, since they are designed to deal damage. But there are... exceptions to the rule:) Same with Shamans, they are a support class, but they are also the second strongest solo class in the game.

[Ripqozko]

I didn't shift the goalposts, you misread what I said. Where did I say "they mostly solo" in this quote?



What I am saying here is the majority of shamans aren't spending the majority of their time grouping/raiding. They are also spending a good amount of time soloing. They aren't like Rogues, where they basically must group/raid. That isn't me saying "mostly soloing". But I know it is easier just to claim "moving goalposts" than to actually make a valid point. You need to stop trying to "gotcha" people, and try to win with facts and logic.



No, it is not a bad analogy. You are trying to claim "support classes" aren't designed to solo, which is nonsensical. There is nothing intrinsic about a "support class" that means they can't solo. Again, Enchanters are also "support classes".

If anything "dps classes" should be better at soloing, since they are designed to deal damage. But there are... exceptions to the rule:) Same with Shamans, they are a support class, but they are also the second strongest solo class in the game.

987

[Toxigen]

jesus fucking christ. here we go again

[DeathsSilkyMist]

jesus fucking christ. here we go again

I know. It's weird that people think Enchanters/Shamans aren't played by people who like to solo with them.

And Ripqozko is still just randomly counting.

[Crede]

I didn't shift the goalposts, you misread what I said. Where did I say "they mostly solo" in this quote?



What I am saying here is the majority of shamans aren't spending the majority of their time grouping/raiding. They are also spending a good amount of time soloing. They aren't like Rogues, where they basically must group/raid. That isn't me saying "mostly soloing". But I know it is easier just to claim "moving goalposts" than to actually make a valid point. You need to stop trying to "gotcha" people, and try to win with facts and logic.

I’m not trying to win anything. I’m stating a fact, FSI is mostly a solo benefit for shamans. Shaman gameplay isn’t limited to solo. So it’s not a great racial for overall shaman gameplay.

You are the only person who will try to win at all costs to the degree of equating shaman dps to mage dps in a 400 page thread so at this point im not sure what you have proved to this community other than you have an obsession with attempting to win a thread.

If you spent more time presenting data instead of presenting your biased ogre shaman arguments you would be spending your time more wisely.

No, it is not a bad analogy. You are trying to claim "support classes" aren't designed to solo, which is nonsensical. There is nothing intrinsic about a "support class" that means they can't solo. Again, Enchanters are also "support classes".

If anything "dps classes" should be better at soloing, since they are designed to deal damage. But there are... exceptions to the rule:) Same with Shamans, they are a support class, but they are also the second strongest solo class in the game.

I never said a "support class" was incapable of soloing. What I said was this is not how they were designed, so they shine better in other areas, and being a MMO, where you can benefit the group is greater than the benefit solo. So FSI can be useful for solo stuff, but definitely does not make it the min max shaman racial.

[Toxigen]

yall are berging out over shaman race in the tank subforum

seek help

[Ripqozko]

I know. It's weird that people think Enchanters/Shamans aren't played by people who like to solo with them.

And Ripqozko is still just randomly counting.

986

[Jimjam]

Split the thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m not trying to win anything. I’m stating a fact, FSI is mostly a solo benefit for shamans. Shaman gameplay isn’t limited to solo. So it’s not a great racial for overall shaman gameplay.

You are the only person who will try to win at all costs to the degree of equating shaman dps to mage dps in a 400 page thread so at this point im not sure what you have proved to this community other than you have an obsession with attempting to win a thread.

If you spent more time presenting data instead of presenting your biased ogre shaman arguments you would be spending your time more wisely.

I agree FSI is mostly a solo benefit. The problem is you think racials actually matter much outside of soloing. There is no racial that is extremely effective in group/raid situations. Both FSI and Regeneration are best suited for soloing. In group/raid situations they are very situational for when they will actually help you.

I presented data. I have an entire guide in my signature with hours of videos and math:) I posted data from 7000 kills over years of playing the game. The problem is people like yourself post 0 data, and then ask me to post ALL of the data for both my argument and your own. This is just a poor excuse for the fact that you can't actually provide anything to support your points.

I am not trying to win anything either. I just have to keep posting the data and evidence, because people for some reason have magical ideas about FSI and regeneration, while they don't actually have data.

[Ripqozko]

I agree FSI is mostly a solo benefit. The problem is you think racials actually matter much outside of soloing. There is no racial that is extremely effective in group/raid situations. Both FSI and Regeneration are best suited for soloing. In group/raid situations they are very situational for when they will actually help you.

I presented data. I have an entire guide in my signature with hours of videos and math:) I posted data from 7000 kills over years of playing the game. The problem is people like yourself post 0 data, and then ask me to post ALL of the data for both my argument and your own. This is just a poor excuse for the fact that you can't actually provide anything to support your points.

I am not trying to win anything either. I just have to keep posting the data and evidence, because people for some reason have magical ideas about FSI and regeneration, while they don't actually have data.

985

[Toxigen]

I agree FSI is mostly a solo benefit. The problem is you think racials actually matter much outside of soloing. There is no racial that is extremely effective in group/raid situations. Both FSI and Regeneration are best suited for soloing. In group/raid situations they are very situational for when they will actually help you.

I presented data. I have an entire guide in my signature with hours of videos and math:) I posted data from 7000 kills over years of playing the game. The problem is people like yourself post 0 data, and then ask me to post ALL of the data for both my argument and your own. This is just a poor excuse for the fact that you can't actually provide anything to support your points.

I am not trying to win anything either. I just have to keep posting the data and evidence, because people for some reason have magical ideas about FSI and regeneration, while they don't actually have data.

Idk mayne regeneration is nice for everything other than soloing big mobs.

Just sayin.

[Ripqozko]

Will DSM post 1000 times? Find out as I count. The data is being shown

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Idk mayne regeneration is nice for everything other than soloing big mobs.

Just sayin.

Except it isn't when you have Torpor. Trolls get 4800 HP per hour standing. That's 3-4 Torpors worth of HP over a full hour (1.5-2 minutes saved). That isn't going to help your group/raid 99% of the time. This is because "oh shit" moments happen fairly quickly, and regeneration gives you very little over a short period of time.

This is why Torpor Shamans don't wear Fungi Tunics. They understand that you want the better AC/HP/Resistances to help with short term damage spikes. Torpor is all you need for long term regeneration and sustainability.

[Crede]

I agree FSI is mostly a solo benefit. The problem is you think racials actually matter much outside of soloing. There is no racial that is extremely effective in group/raid situations. Both FSI and Regeneration are best suited for soloing. In group/raid situations they are very situational for when they will actually help you.

I presented data. I have an entire guide in my signature with hours of videos and math:) I posted data from 7000 kills over years of playing the game. The problem is people like yourself post 0 data, and then ask me to post ALL of the data for both my argument and your own. This is just a poor excuse for the fact that you can't actually provide anything to support your points.

I am not trying to win anything either. I just have to keep posting the data and evidence, because people for some reason have magical ideas about FSI and regeneration, while they don't actually have data.

What data is needed to support my point? Regen saves you mana which will allow you to cast more spells over time. This is a mathematical fact. This makes you a better shaman in 100% of situations as long as your health is below 100% which it almost always should be. If anything, continually going back and trying to post more data seems to imply you are trying to create something out of nothing.

You could get a good feel for regen if you stick your head up a troll's ass, but I'd rather just take the wiki's word for it.

[Ripqozko]

Except it isn't when you have Torpor. Trolls get 4800 HP per hour standing. That's 3-4 Torpors worth of HP over a full hour (1.5-2 minutes saved). That isn't going to help your group/raid 99% of the time. This is because "oh shit" moments happen fairly quickly, and regeneration gives you very little over a short period of time.

This is why Torpor Shamans don't wear Fungi Tunics. They understand that you want the better AC/Resistances to help with short term spikes. Torpor is all you need for long term regeneration and sustainability.

984

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What data is needed to support my point? Regen saves you mana which will allow you to cast more spells over time. This is a mathematical fact. This makes you a better shaman in 100% of situations as long as your health is below 100% which it almost always should be. If anything, continually going back and trying to post more data seems to imply you are trying to create something out of nothing.

You could get a good feel for regen if you stick your head up a troll's ass, but I'd rather just take the wiki's word for it.

No, it is not a mathematical fact.

When killing cliff Golems, for example, they are on a 6 minute respawn timer as a single spawn. A Torpor Shaman will Cannibalize back to full HP/Mana in 3 minutes. A Troll and an Ogre are killing the exact same number of Cliff Golems per hour, Troll Regeneration has zero benefit here. This is just one example.

The myth here is simply that Regeneration is "always helping". It honestly isn't, because Everquest has long respawn timers. This offsets a lot of Regeneration benefits.

[Ripqozko]

No, it is not a mathematical fact.

When killing cliff Golems, for example, they are on a 6 minute respawn timer as a single spawn. A Torpor Shaman will Cannibalize back to full HP/Mana in 3 minutes. A Troll and an Ogre are killing the exact same number of Cliff Golems per hour, Troll Regeneration has zero benefit here. This is just one example.

983

[Crede]

No, it is not a mathematical fact.

When killing cliff Golems, for example, they are on a 6 minute respawn timer as a single spawn. A Torpor Shaman will Cannibalize back to full HP/Mana in 3 minutes. A Troll and an Ogre are killing the exact same number of Cliff Golems per hour, Troll Regeneration has zero benefit here. This is just one example.

The myth here is simply that Regeneration is "always helping". It honestly isn't, because Everquest has long respawn timers. This offsets a lot of Regeneration benefits.

It is helping. It will allow you to refresh buffs easier before the next cliff golem. Or buff some noob. Or save you APM. It is always better, 100%. There's always a use. This is indisputable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is helping. It will allow you to refresh buffs easier before the next cliff golem. Or buff some noob. Or save you APM. It is always better, 100%. There's always a use. This is indisputable.

It is disputable. It doesn't take 6 minutes to rebuff and recover between Cliff Golem kills. You are just mathematically wrong here.

[Ripqozko]

It is disputable. It doesn't take 6 minutes to rebuff and recover between Cliff Golem kills. You are just mathematically wrong here.

982

[Jimjam]

Idk mayne regeneration is nice for everything other than soloing big mobs.

Just sayin.

Sticking to the actual topic/subforum, regen helps a lot in most groups imo. Even with cheal you likely aren’t needing heals so often, and all of that time waiting for hp to drop low enough is spent regenning.

I’ve never felt I missed fsi in xp groups (not on a ranger, warrior or sk) nor while grinding xp or pp solo. On low numbers content vs high level content it doesn’t matter as there is less loafing. Fear/hate/growth trash clears never missed it.

Killing / positioning multiple dragons at once it is handy to have FSI (wexit, hot, those names with wurm guardians). Vs rooted dragons it doesn’t matter.

Positioning big names in kael it is maybe kinda handy, but idk i don’t think any of the racials really matter there?

Thats my experiences at least.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What data is needed to support my point?

This is a subjective statement, unless you have data to prove otherwise.

I find this ironic as well. You somehow think that your opinion doesn't require any data, but you expect me to supply mountains of data (which I have).

This is the problem with the FSI vs Regeneration debate. The people who support Regeneration with fervor all take this stance, where their opinion is "objective", and everybody else's is "subjective", without any evidence needed. People supporting Regeneration need no data, but everybody else does. It's just silly.

[Ripqozko]

I find this ironic as well. You somehow think that your opinion doesn't require any data, but you expect me to supply mountains of data (which I have).

This is the problem with the FSI vs Regeneration debate. The people who support Regeneration with fervor all take this stance, where their opinion is "objective", and everybody else's is "subjective", without any evidence needed. People supporting Regeneration need no data, but everybody else does. It's just silly.

981

[Jimjam]

It’s not about FSI vs regen, it is just about whether FSI is overrated.

[Ripqozko]

It’s not about FSI vs regen, it is just about whether FSI is overrated.

Not sure if ya are new but every thread DSM is in is about him, hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s not about FSI vs regen, it is just about whether FSI is overrated.

FSI and Regeneration are the only two high powered racials. So it is a Regeneration vs. FSI debate, because one is better than the other.

I don't think anyone here (including myself) has claimed FSI is required for any content. So it being overrated or not isn't really relevant.

People should know which racial is better for min/max purposes. Some people like having the best character possible, even if it doesn't matter too much. It's the same idea with fashion. People like fashionquest, even though it doesn't matter.

Not sure if ya are new but every thread DSM is in is about him, hope that helps.

You have no evidence to support this claim. Go back to counting. People really love that.

[Ripqozko]

It’s not about FSI vs regen, it is just about whether FSI is overrated.

FSI and Regeneration are the only two high powered racials. So it is a Regeneration vs. FSI debate, because one is better than the other.

I don't think anyone here (including myself) has claimed FSI is required for any content. So it being overrated or not isn't really relevant.

People should know which racial is better for min/max purposes. Some people like having the best character possible, even if it doesn't matter too much. It's the same idea with fashion. People like fashionquest, even though it doesn't matter.



You have no evidence to support this claim. Go back to counting. People really love that.

980

[Jimjam]

Best tank racial for min max purposes is by far halfling though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best tank racial for min max purposes is by far halfling though.

When sneak pulling was still a thing, I agree Halfling Warriors had a pretty strong racial. Now that it was nerfed, there isn't much benefit to having sneak on a Warrior.

[Ripqozko]

When sneak pulling was still a thing, I agree Halfling Warriors had a pretty strong racial. Now that it was nerfed, there isn't much benefit to having sneak on a Warrior.

979

Also they can walk out of VP, you can’t solo. Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

979

Also they can walk out of VP, you can’t solo. Hope that helps.

Or you could just manage your characters better when raiding. Hope that helps.

[Ripqozko]

Or you could just manage your characters better when raiding. Hope that helps.

978, sorry you don’t got sneak

[Jimjam]

When sneak pulling was still a thing, I agree Halfling Warriors had a pretty strong racial. Now that it was nerfed, there isn't much benefit to having sneak on a Warrior.

It's a lot deeper than that - although I do admit halflings have greatly diminished in power.

They really get a lot of routes to good equipment throughout the server (bull crusher is astounding on day 1, it's never hard to find dwarf cultural, etc), faction work isn't terribly easy but hide and sneak both help and have further uses pre infinite invis clicks, they are generally pretty well received by other players (people seem to be much kinder to halflings than other races - but iksars do tend to stick together and help each other a lot. They can be RZ which helps in Velious (iksar are stuck with CT). Sure these don't help so much at end game, but they make it easier and faster to get there.

Honestly, I think the fact that players are more amiable and accommodating to halfling avatars than ogres is a good enough reason halfling is better than ogre. Warriors need friends to accomplish their goals and endearing halflings are just better for that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's a lot deeper than that - although I do admit halflings have greatly diminished in power.

They really get a lot of routes to good equipment throughout the server (bull crusher is astounding on day 1, it's never hard to find dwarf cultural, etc), faction work isn't terribly easy but hide and sneak both help and have further uses pre infinite invis clicks, they are generally pretty well received by other players (people seem to be much kinder to halflings than other races - but iksars do tend to stick together and help each other a lot. They can be RZ which helps in Velious (iksar are stuck with CT).

Honestly, I think the fact that players are more amiable and accommodating to halfling avatars than ogres is a good enough reason halfling is better than ogre. Warriors need friends to accomplish their goals and endearing halflings are just better for that.

Those are indeed good points. I am not trying to say people should only play Ogres/Trolls/Iksars because of their superior racials.

I just want people to know what the min/max options are from a statistical perspective, because some people care about that stuff. Ogre/Troll Warriors have the statistical advantage based on their racials. Ogres are generally better at 60, and Trolls are generally better when leveling. The choice mostly comes down to when you want your racial to be most effective: At the endgame, or during leveling.

If you want to make a character for reasons other than statistics, that is completely fine. Knowledge is power, and people should know what is better/worse. Then you can make your decision based on all the facts.

Rolling a halfling because you think it is better socially, or want to exclusively raid in VP are both valid reasons to roll a halfling. But that doesn't make them statistically superior generally speaking, they are just better for your specific case.

I am not sure why people get so offended at the statistics (not saying you are specifically). Luckily Everquest is a game where you can still do all the content a specific class could do with the statistically worst race choice.

[Ripqozko]

Those are indeed good points. I am not trying to say people should only play Ogres/Trolls/Iksars because of their superior racials.

I just want people to know what the min/max options are from a statistical perspective, because some people care about that stuff. Ogre/Troll Warriors have the statistical advantage based on their racials. Ogres are generally better at 60, and Trolls are generally better when leveling. The choice mostly comes down to when you want your racial to be most effective: At the endgame, or during leveling.

If you want to make a character for reasons other than statistics, that is completely fine. Knowledge is power, and people should know what is better/worse. Then you can make your decision based on all the facts.

Rolling a halfling because you think it is better socially, or want to exclusively raid in VP are both valid reasons to roll a halfling. But that doesn't make them statistically superior generally speaking, they are just better for your specific case.

I am not sure why people get so offended at the statistics (not saying you are specifically). Luckily Everquest is a game where you can still do all the content a specific class could do with the statistically worst race choice.

977

[Danth]

There is no racial that is extremely effective in group/raid situations.

On the raid side, this is largely a current day P99-specific issue due to P99's modern culture of zerg raiding and trainout/lack of clear tactics. Hence it might be subject to eventual change if the ruleset is ever updated. Regeneration from any source (racial, worn, either nice and they stacked) was great on the feigner classes back in the original game or in years past on P99 when things like wipes happened and lengthy traditional corpse runs took place. In such conditions it was not unheard of to spend 10-20 min feigned in place slowly regenerating. This is the tank board so that applies to shadowknights.

On warriors my own favorite racial trait in large group (especially raid) scenarios is physical size: It's helpful for everyone to be able to pick their main tank who'll be controlling positioning/etc out from a crowd. That's hard to do if the tank is some stupid little dwarf or gnome. Ogres and trolls are good, barbarians okay, medium races ho-hum in that aspect, short races are annoying. The more people the more of an annoyance it becomes. That's the only trait anyone else is going to notice and even then they ultimately won't care THAT much.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On the raid side, this is largely a current day P99-specific issue due to P99's modern culture of zerg raiding and trainout/lack of clear tactics. Hence it might be subject to eventual change if the ruleset is ever updated.


I am always talking about what's currently good on P99 specifically, since that is what we are playing. Maybe that is where some of the confusion comes from. I am not trying to talk about what "should be", "could be", "it worked x way on live", etc.


Regeneration from any source (racial, worn, either nice and they stacked) was great on the feigner classes back in the original game or in years past on P99 when things like wipes happened and lengthy traditional corpse runs took place. In such conditions it was not unheard of to spend 10-20 min feigned in place slowly regenerating. This is the tank board so that applies to shadowknights.


Agreed, there are cases where regeneration can help recovering during feign death. But since raids are a race, normally you aren't waiting for a single puller to recover, you have backups, or even die and get a res because it's faster.


On warriors my own favorite racial trait in large group (especially raid) scenarios is physical size: It's helpful for everyone to be able to pick their main tank who'll be controlling positioning/etc out from a crowd. That's hard to do if the tank is some stupid little dwarf or gnome. Ogres and trolls are good, barbarians okay, medium races ho-hum in that aspect, short races are annoying. The more people the more of an annoyance it becomes. That's the only trait anyone else is going to notice and even then they ultimately won't care THAT much.


Agreed. It's better to be bigger by default in most normal situations, because then it is easier to climb some staircases (such as Kael), and you can shrink when you need to. Being small all the time is harder, because there aren't as many methods to scale back up. Ant Pots are quite easy to get for anyone when you need to be small.

For raiding there are only a few targets where size matters when getting resed (such as Zlandicar). Even then experienced guilds know how to get around that with the level geometry.

[Jimjam]

Rolling a halfling because you think it is better socially, or want to exclusively raid in VP are both valid reasons to roll a halfling.

Completely disagree on the second point - if you want to raid VP it has to be Iksar - it fits the lore so thematically (and lets face it the advantages of halfling aren’t really even all that - as you point out earlier a stranded iksar in vp can be managed). It’s easier to keep motivation with a theme driving the character and people like to cheer on an iksar seeking vengeance against Ring of Scale (I still need my iksar to reclaim Rile’s sword at some point!).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Completely disagree on the second point - if you want to raid VP it has to be Iksar - it fits the lore so thematically (and lets face it the advantages of halfling aren’t really even all that - as you point out earlier a stranded iksar in vp can be managed). It’s easier to keep motivation with a theme driving the character and people like to cheer on an iksar seeking vengeance against Ring of Scale (I still need my iksar to reclaim Rile’s sword at some point!).

Lol everybody loves the underdog story!

[Ripqozko]

Lol everybody loves the underdog story!

975

[DeathsSilkyMist]

975

I am clearly living rent free in your head. You must be my biggest fan, following me around and counting.

[Ripqozko]

I am clearly living rent free in your head. You must be my biggest fan, following me around and counting.

974

[Heywood]

If you're listening to DSM's opinion about eq in 2023, you're probably new to EQ.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're listening to DSM's opinion about eq in 2023, you're probably new to EQ.

Or you listen to people who bring actual evidence to back up their claims, instead of nonsense. You are the nonsense kind of poster:)

[Ripqozko]

Or you listen to people who bring actual evidence to back up their claims, instead of nonsense. You are the nonsense kind of poster:)

973

[Snaggles]

I really don’t think you would notice having or not having FSI even on a shaman. I can’t recall a single time it mattered. Maybe level up another shaman so you have objective data on how much worse it is?

I would but have five 60’s already and don’t even like the shaman that much.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I really don’t think you would notice having or not having FSI even on a shaman. I can’t recall a single time it mattered. Maybe level up another shaman so you have objective data on how much worse it is?

I would but have five 60’s already and don’t even like the shaman that much.

I have always said Regeneration is better while leveling. That data isn't relevant.

FSI is better when you have Torpor, and Regeneration is better while leveling. From a min/max perspective, the assumption is you will reach level 60. That means the racial that is better at level 60 is objectively the better racial from a min/max perspective.

There are many people who are certain they won't reach level 60, and if that is the case I would tell people to roll Troll instead. The only downside to this thinking is P99 is a game that takes people years to get to 60 in many cases. Your opinion on if you will get to level 60 or not may change in that time.

I have also never said FSI is required. The debate is which racial is better, not if it is required.

[Snaggles]

Yes but you have only leveled one shaman right? So the Regen vs xp penalty is theorycrafted at best (I expect 20% slower leveling is worse and causes more people to not hit 60).

Likewise FSI is best at 60…ok in theory, but you won’t know how much a difference without swapping between two chars. I honestly think if you hid the spell interrupt bar you couldn’t even tell side to side. It’s harder than the Pepsi/Coke double blind.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes but you have only leveled one shaman right? So the Regen vs xp penalty is theorycrafted at best (I expect 20% slower leveling is worse and causes more people to not hit 60).

Likewise FSI is best at 60…ok in theory, but you won’t know how much a difference without swapping between two chars. I honestly think if you hid the spell interrupt bar you couldn’t even tell side to side. It’s harder than the Pepsi/Coke double blind.

FSI is better than Regeneration at level 60 in fact. You can run the numbers. Better doesn't mean "so good it's going to change your life". It just means statistically better when it matters. Some people like min/maxing every tiny percentage out of a game. I am not sure why people keep thinking I am arguing FSI is life changing. I have never said that, and I have repeated myself hundreds of times at this point.

When it comes to XP bonus vs. Regeneration, that is always going to be hard to quantify. Regeneration allows you to kill more mobs per hour, which means you are going to be getting more money/items while leveling. Even if Barbarians end up dinging 60 a bit sooner, if they want to have the same money/items as the troll, they will need to spend the time they saved farming stuff. Now obviously a Torpor Shaman can farm better than a pre-60 Shaman. But it does take time and skill to learn how to kill the good mobs with a Torpor Shaman, compared to just farming guards 20% longer.

[Ripqozko]

971

[Danth]

. I am not sure why people keep thinking I am arguing FSI is life changing. I have never said that, and I have repeated myself hundreds of times at this point.

You tend to be long-winded (join the club, I am too often enough) and we live in the Sound Bite era: I figure a lot of folks aren't actually reading all of it. A fair number of folks read a couple lines then click "reply" looking to pick a fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You tend to be long-winded (join the club, I am too often enough) and we live in the Sound Bite era: I figure a lot of folks aren't actually reading all of it. A fair number of folks read a couple lines then click "reply" looking to pick a fight.

Yeah I figured at this point people are skimming. You just can't seem to win on these forums though. If you are succinct people try to "gotcha" you and take things out of context. If you explain your ideas in detail people don't read it lol.

I have tried both ways, and being long winded ends up being better, since at least you can show where people didn't read hehe.

[Ripqozko]

970

[Crede]

Yeah I figured at this point people are skimming. You just can't seem to win on these forums though. If you are succinct people try to "gotcha" you and take things out of context. If you explain your ideas in detail people don't read it lol.

I have tried both ways, and being long winded ends up being better, since at least you can show where people didn't read hehe.

Thank you for finally admitting you are trying to win instead of accusing others of doing so!

I’m liking the progress 😁

[Crede]

FSI is better than Regeneration at level 60 in fact. You can run the numbers. Better doesn't mean "so good it's going to change your life". It just means statistically better when it matters. Some people like min/maxing every tiny percentage out of a game. I am not sure why people keep thinking I am arguing FSI is life changing. I have never said that, and I have repeated myself hundreds of times at this point.

When it comes to XP bonus vs. Regeneration, that is always going to be hard to quantify. Regeneration allows you to kill more mobs per hour, which means you are going to be getting more money/items while leveling. Even if Barbarians end up dinging 60 a bit sooner, if they want to have the same money/items as the troll, they will need to spend the time they saved farming stuff. Now obviously a Torpor Shaman can farm better than a pre-60 Shaman. But it does take time and skill to learn how to kill the good mobs with a Torpor Shaman, compared to just farming guards 20% longer.

There’s no numbers to support FSI being better than Regen at 60 hehe. Especially since you have to be tanking to actually get said benefit. You just believe the benefit is greater than the benefit of regen. Purely subjective, but you are entitled to your opinion. You don’t need to “win” everything, as you just previously admitted. It’s ok to accept there is no right answer, because there isn’t, or the shaman racial debate wouldn’t keep going. Nobody is debating about human monks over iksar monks for a reason.

[Ripqozko]

There’s no numbers to support FSI being better than Regen at 60 hehe. Especially since you have to be tanking to actually get said benefit. You just believe the benefit is greater than the benefit of regen. Purely subjective, but you are entitled to your opinion. You don’t need to “win” everything, as you just previously admitted. It’s ok to accept there is no right answer, because there isn’t, or the shaman racial debate wouldn’t keep going. Nobody is debating about human monks over iksar monks for a reason.

Female iksar have tri dildo on their head, clearly inferior.

[Snaggles]

I am not sure why people keep thinking I am arguing FSI is life changing. I have never said that, and I have repeated myself hundreds of times at this point.

Uh....k.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for finally admitting you are trying to win instead of accusing others of doing so!

I’m liking the progress ��

See? Gotchas. That is an expression saying "you can't win". I am not literally saying I want to win. But again, this is the only thing you can do since you aren't actually showing evidence to support your position.

There’s no numbers to support FSI being better than Regen at 60 hehe. Especially since you have to be tanking to actually get said benefit. You just believe the benefit is greater than the benefit of regen. Purely subjective, but you are entitled to your opinion. You don’t need to “win” everything, as you just previously admitted. It’s ok to accept there is no right answer, because there isn’t, or the shaman racial debate wouldn’t keep going. Nobody is debating about human monks over iksar monks for a reason.

I've posted loads of data. You simply ignoring it isn't an argument.

You just need to accept that in a video game, which is built on rules and math, there is a right and wrong answer. There is a best and worst racial. I am not sure why this bothers you, and you must force your belief on people that there is "no right answer". That is factually incorrect.

Uh....k.

If you don't believe me, please quote me where I said FSI was life changing or required. You won't find it.

[Ripqozko]

See? Gotchas. That is an expression saying "you can't win". I am not literally saying I want to win. But again, this is the only thing you can do since you aren't actually showing evidence to support your position.



I've posted loads of data. You simply ignoring it isn't an argument.

969

[Crede]

See? Gotchas. That is an expression saying "you can't win". I am not literally saying I want to win. But again, this is the only thing you can do since you aren't actually showing evidence to support your position.



I've posted loads of data. You simply ignoring it isn't an argument.

You just need to accept that in a video game, which is built on rules and math, there is a right and wrong answer. There is a best and worst racial. I am not sure why this bothers you, and you must force your belief on people that there is "no right answer". That is factually incorrect.




If you don't believe me, please quote me where I said FSI was life changing or required. You won't find it.

There’s no way to actually prove FSI is superior though. If you had a million hours of shaman logs on an ogre, and a million hours of shaman logs on a troll/iksar, what exactly would be your rating criteria?

Getting stunned just means it took you longer to cast a spell. But regen means you will have more mana to cast spells because you don’t need to cast torpor as much. There’s no way you could possibly tell how many times FSI saved your life either. Even if it did, why would that make it better? A rare death here and there from a stun doesn’t make it better. This is what you fail to realize.

FSI benefits on a shaman are all theorycraft. It doesn’t equate to anything. We can show that an iksar monk can probably pull longer than a human monk with regen ticking. And also tank better with the ac bonus. There’s nothing we can actually measure to say FSI is better on a shaman. I wouldn’t be surprised if the troll snare necklace has saved more lives than shaman FSI. We can tell an ogre warrior can actually position better and generate more aggro in the long term with FSI.

I’ve said it before like many others. FSI is a benefit in that it removes the annoyance of getting stunned for shamans. That’s it. And it might make you a better jbb caster. But spamming jbb isn’t shaman min max.

You’re attempting to “win” an endless debate. I don’t know why you’re so set on trying to prove FSI is king. It’s not gonna happen. People already have made up their minds on which is better to them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There’s no way to actually prove FSI is superior though. If you had a million hours of shaman logs on an ogre, and a million hours of shaman logs on a troll/iksar, what exactly would be your rating criteria?

Getting stunned just means it took you longer to cast a spell. But regen means you will have more mana to cast spells because you don’t need to cast torpor as much. There’s no way you could possibly tell how many times FSI saved your life either. Even if it did, why would that make it better? A rare death here and there from a stun doesn’t make it better. This is what you fail to realize.

FSI benefits on a shaman are all theorycraft. It doesn’t equate to anything. We can show that an iksar monk can probably pull longer than a human monk with regen ticking. And also tank better with the ac bonus. There’s nothing we can actually measure to say FSI is better on a shaman. I wouldn’t be surprised if the troll snare necklace has saved more lives than shaman FSI. We can tell an ogre warrior can actually position better and generate more aggro in the long term with FSI.

I’ve said it before like many others. FSI is a benefit in that it removes the annoyance of getting stunned for shamans. That’s it. And it might make you a better jbb caster. But spamming jbb isn’t shaman min max.

You’re attempting to “win” an endless debate. I don’t know why you’re so set on trying to prove FSI is king. It’s not gonna happen. People already have made up their minds on which is better to them.

I am not attempting to win anything. I post the facts and you get angry.

Refute the evidence I have provided, instead of falsely claiming there is no way to prove it lol. The only reason why you say that is because you know you have no data to back up your opinion.

[Ripqozko]

I am not attempting to win anything. I post the facts and you get angry.

Refute the evidence I have provided, instead of falsely claiming there is no way to prove it lol. The only reason why you say that is because you know you have no data to back up your opinion.

968

[Snaggles]

Lol Crede is right though. Regen for a class than can Canni = mana. Trolls and Iksars basically have FT4 while standing over the others. Often I canni down to like half health and just run to the next spot a few zones over. By the time you get there you are almost full health and saved a torp.

Free mana you don’t have to click a snare/heal for is nice too.

[Toxigen]

Lol Crede is right though. Regen for a class than can Canni = mana. Trolls and Iksars basically have FT4 while standing over the others. Often I canni down to like half health and just run to the next spot a few zones over. By the time you get there you are almost full health and saved a torp.

Free mana you don’t have to click a snare/heal for is nice too.

Yeah, this.

[Allishia]

968

Lol stop picking on the ogre :p

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol Crede is right though. Regen for a class than can Canni = mana. Trolls and Iksars basically have FT4 while standing over the others. Often I canni down to like half health and just run to the next spot a few zones over. By the time you get there you are almost full health and saved a torp.

Free mana you don’t have to click a snare/heal for is nice too.

The problem is you don't get free mana if you aren't regenerating, and you fully recover before the next fight. Torpor is the equivalent of FT150. The difference between FT150 and FT154 is basically negligible due to the number already being so high.

A Cliff Golem takes 6 minutes to respawn, and you will fully recover your HP/Mana in 3 minutes. You are still waiting 3 minutes for the next spawn. Not regenerating HP or Mana. A Troll and an Ogre are no different in this scenario.

And if you want to canni to half health and regenerate across zones, you don't need Troll Regen to do that. Regrowth + Fungi Tunic will work just fine in that scenario.

The snare clicky sadly is also bad. It has the worst snare in the game, a long cast time, and a 30 second duration. You can't even use it to snare, camp, and come back to a mob that is now single. You'll still need a clickie/proc with a longer snare to do that. For mobs that gate, most of them can be fought on their spawn points to prevent that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol stop picking on the ogre :p

I don't mind:) He is trying really hard to make a joke, and failing spectacularly. He is just making himself look bad. But he will thank you for the pity reply, he is trying so hard.

[Jimjam]

Lets take the shaman stuff out of the tank sub forum?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lets take the shaman stuff out of the tank sub forum?

The context here is OP made this thread due to another discussion in the priest section. That discussion was him hijacking a thread about JBBs to talk about FSI vs. Regen. This thread should have been started in the priest section to begin with.

Here is part of OP's original post in this thread:


- There is no statistical results that show Ogre shaman are anymore successful at solo challenges than their counter parts


Due to how soon he made this thread after his last post in the priest section, and his specific reference to Ogre Shamans, this is obviously a spill-over thread from the previous discussion, in the wrong section.

[Ripqozko]

The context here is OP made this thread due to another discussion in the priest section. That discussion was him hijacking a thread about JBBs to talk about FSI vs. Regen. This thread should have been started in the priest section to begin with.

965

[Allishia]

Back on topic ok

Fsi doesn't matter for warrior, it's an ogre lie /nod :p

[Jimjam]

Back on topic ok

Fsi doesn't matter for warrior, it's an ogre lie /nod :p

They ain’t even good at telling lies - poor intelligence and charisma means they fail every check.

[Toxigen]

the spergonauts have blasted off

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Back on topic ok

Fsi doesn't matter for warrior, it's an ogre lie /nod :p

For Warriors FSI matters less, I agree. You aren't casting spells (so getting stunned is less of an issue), and Warriors are preventing bashes with dodge/parry/riposte. An Ogre's lower CHA is also a bit of an issue when it comes to Divine Intervention. FSI mostly helps with agro generation, since you have a few more seconds per fight of swinging your weapons.

But OP is really talking about Shamans. I am not sure why he posted this thread here. For Shamans FSI matters more. They don't have parry/riposte (they get bashed more), and getting interrupted on a spell cast wastes a lot more time. It can be the difference between success and failure in a time sensitive situation.

[Ripqozko]

For Warriors FSI matters less, I agree. You aren't casting spells (so getting stunned is less of an issue), and Warriors are preventing bashes with dodge/parry/riposte. An Ogre's lower CHA is also a bit of an issue when it comes to Divine Intervention. FSI mostly helps with agro generation, since you have a few more seconds per fight of swinging your weapons.

But OP is really talking about Shamans. I am not sure why he posted this thread here. For Shamans FSI matters more. They don't have parry/riposte (they get bashed more), and getting interrupted on a spell cast wastes a lot more time. It can be the difference between success and failure in a time sensitive situation.

964

[Allishia]

Ya @OP Get Off My Tank Subforum with your shaman fsi non sense ! :p

[Jimjam]

Grump old warriors against shamans!

Your torpor keeps trashing my sick dps and aggros!!

[red_demonman]

FSI makes you not get stunned face-tanking.
Shamans face-tank hard mobs.
Getting stunned interrupts your spell casting.
Multiple interrupts on torpor is what can get you killed when soloing hard stuff on shaman.
Getting stunned equals more interrupts than if you couldn't get stunned.
Small amounts of AC or regen mean jack shit compared to torpor.

Hope this helps any lizard brains that have trouble processing why FSI is so good for shaman. You may need to correlate all these facts, take 2 aspirin for any headaches.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

FSI makes you not get stunned face-tanking.
Shamans face-tank hard mobs.
Getting stunned interrupts your spell casting.
Multiple interrupts on torpor is what can get you killed when soloing hard stuff on shaman.
Getting stunned equals more interrupts than if you couldn't get stunned.
Small amounts of AC or regen mean jack shit compared to torpor.

Hope this helps any lizard brains that have trouble processing why FSI is so good for shaman. You may need to correlate all these facts, take 2 aspirin for any headaches.

Great TLDR!

[Ripqozko]

Great TLDR!

963

[Toxigen]

FSI makes you not get stunned face-tanking.
Shamans face-tank hard mobs.
Getting stunned interrupts your spell casting.
Multiple interrupts on torpor is what can get you killed when soloing hard stuff on shaman.
Getting stunned equals more interrupts than if you couldn't get stunned.
Small amounts of AC or regen mean jack shit compared to torpor.

Hope this helps any lizard brains that have trouble processing why FSI is so good for shaman. You may need to correlate all these facts, take 2 aspirin for any headaches.

ya but you cant wear pd robe so hard pass

hope this helped

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ya but you cant wear pd robe so hard pass

hope this helped

Not sure why you are trying to equate fashion quest to gameplay. Fashion quest is purely subjective.

I think plate looks better than robes.

[red_demonman]

ya but you cant wear pd robe so hard pass

hope this helped

Guardian robe looks better with guise anyway. Checkmate atheists.

[Ripqozko]

962

[Crede]

FSI makes you not get stunned face-tanking.
Shamans face-tank hard mobs.
Getting stunned interrupts your spell casting.
Multiple interrupts on torpor is what can get you killed when soloing hard stuff on shaman.
Getting stunned equals more interrupts than if you couldn't get stunned.
Small amounts of AC or regen mean jack shit compared to torpor.

Hope this helps any lizard brains that have trouble processing why FSI is so good for shaman. You may need to correlate all these facts, take 2 aspirin for any headaches.

Just more theorycraft that FSI is actually doing something for you besides maybe preventing a death 1 outta a million attempts.

There’s no way to actually prove FSI is superior though. If you had a million hours of shaman logs on an ogre, and a million hours of shaman logs on a troll/iksar, what exactly would be your rating criteria?

Getting stunned just means it took you longer to cast a spell. But regen means you will have more mana to cast spells because you don’t need to cast torpor as much. There’s no way you could possibly tell how many times FSI saved your life either. Even if it did, why would that make it better? A rare death here and there from a stun doesn’t make it better. This is what you fail to realize.

FSI benefits on a shaman are all theorycraft. It doesn’t equate to anything. We can show that an iksar monk can probably pull longer than a human monk with regen ticking. And also tank better with the ac bonus. There’s nothing we can actually measure to say FSI is better on a shaman. I wouldn’t be surprised if the troll snare necklace has saved more lives than shaman FSI. We can tell an ogre warrior can actually position better and generate more aggro in the long term with FSI.

I’ve said it before like many others. FSI is a benefit in that it removes the annoyance of getting stunned for shamans. That’s it. And it might make you a better jbb caster. But spamming jbb isn’t shaman min max. .

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just more theorycraft that FSI is actually doing something for you besides maybe preventing a death 1 outta a million attempts.

I have provided plenty of data. You have no valid argument here. You simply have a false opinion that FSI is unquantifiable. That is untrue, and a very poor attempt at claiming you are right.

[Ripqozko]

961

[Crede]

I have provided plenty of data. You have no valid argument here. You simply have a false opinion that FSI is unquantifiable. That is untrue, and a very poor attempt at claiming you are right.

You can't quantify the amount of deaths FSI has prevented. So unfortunately, whatever "Data" you think you have, is simply meaningless. When you provide something meaningful, please come back to me. The troll snare necklace could easily be considered just as useful.

Unfortunately, FSI is just ogre Juju.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can't quantify the amount of deaths FSI has prevented. So unfortunately, whatever "Data" you think you have, is simply meaningless. When you provide something meaningful, please come back to me.

Unfortunately, FSI is just ogre Juju.

The only juju here is your silly declaration that you don't read data. I am sorry, but covering your eyes and ears isn't an argument.


What data is needed to support my point?

This is a subjective statement, unless you have data to prove otherwise.


For some reason you don't need to provide any evidence for your claims, but everybody else does. How silly.

[Crede]

The only juju here is your silly declaration that you don't read data. I am sorry, but covering your eyes and ears isn't an argument.



For some reason you don't need to provide any evidence for your claims, but everybody else does. How silly.

We know how fungi works. Regen is no different. Are you claiming fungi doesn’t work? Of course not.

Regen is a measurable benefit. FSI is Juju. At best, it’s on par with the troll snare necklace.

I’m sorry you don’t see it this way, but I would appreciate it if you didn’t try spreading false information to others.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We know how fungi works. Regen is no different. Are you claiming fungi doesn’t work? Of course not.

Regen is a measurable benefit. FSI is Juju. At best, it’s on par with the troll snare necklace.

I’m sorry you don’t see it this way, but I would appreciate it if you didn’t try spreading false information to others.

The only false information being spread is your idea that FSI is magic, but Regeneration is concrete.

What is your thought process here? You do realize both are programmed, and based on rules and math? If you can quantify one, you can quantify the other.

I am genuinely curious how you have gotten such a simple concept so wrong.

[Ripqozko]

959

[Crede]

The only false information being spread is your idea that FSI is magic, but Regeneration is concrete.

What is your thought process here? You do realize both are programmed, and based on rules and math? If you can quantify one, you can quantify the other.

I am genuinely curious how you have gotten such a simple concept so wrong.

I've told you a million times, FSI is a tanking benefit. Shaman's aren't tanks.

FSI lets you cast more spells when tanking.
Regen lets you cast more spells when < 100% health which is basically always.

It's really that simple. One is situational, one isn't. While you can choose to disagree if you'd like, the facts are simple and you can't change the truth, despite how right you think you are.

[Ripqozko]

DSM will never admit wrong , I will be able to count his posts all the way down to 0 because he simply can’t fathom he may be incorrect on anything, hope this helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've told you a million times, FSI is a tanking benefit. Shaman's aren't tanks.



Ah I see. Basically you don't like the idea that Shamans can tank (and often do).

Therefore, you are making stuff up to try and discourage that playstyle. Got it.


FSI lets you cast more spells when tanking.


True.


Regen lets you cast more spells when < 100% health which is basically always.


False. When fighting Cliff Golems, for example, you will be at 100% HP/Mana for 3 minutes per Cliff Golem respawn cycle.


It's really that simple. One is situational, one isn't. While you can choose to disagree if you'd like, the facts are simple and you can't change the truth, despite how right you think you are.

Both are situational. When you are at full HP, Regeneration is doing nothing. Torpor allows Shamans to get to full HP very quickly.

[Ripqozko]

958

[Heywood]

Damn this thread still going? It's like a few people posting once or twice and then DSM obsessed with proving he's not wrong (he is tho).

Time to wrap it up pal. Pretty unhealthy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Damn this thread still going? It's like a few people posting once or twice and then DSM obsessed with proving he's not wrong (he is tho).

Time to wrap it up pal. Pretty unhealthy.

Another nonsense post from Heywood:)

[Crede]

Ah I see. Basically you don't like the idea that Shamans can tank (and often do).

Therefore, you are making stuff up to try and discourage that playstyle. Got it.



True.



False. When fighting Cliff Golems, for example, you will be at 100% HP/Mana for 3 minutes per Cliff Golem respawn cycle.



Both are situational. When you are at full HP, Regeneration is doing nothing. Torpor allows Shamans to get to full HP very quickly.

Not discouraging playstyle, nor do I dislike it. Just stating the facts.

I'm not sure why you keep clinging on to this Cliff Golem downtime argument, but it's pretty sad as it proves nothing. Regen will still net you more mana over time, so if you aren't utilizing that extra mana, that's on you. And ironically, from how I've seen you kill Cliff Golems, regen would actually be more effective for you, since you let your pet tank.

This is really is not hard to follow.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not discouraging playstyle, nor do I dislike it. Just stating the facts.

I'm not sure why you keep clinging on to this Cliff Golem downtime argument, but it's pretty sad as it proves nothing. Regen will still net you more mana over time, so if you aren't utilizing that extra mana, that's on you. And ironically, from how I've seen you kill Cliff Golems, regen would actually be more effective for you, since you let your pet tank.

This is really is not hard to follow.

The "fact" that Shamans aren't a tank class by definition is irrelevant. They can tank better than most classes (even tank classes) with Slow + Torpor. I am not sure why you think this matters. If the developers called Rogues "spell casters", that doesn't change how they play (they don't cast spells).

The Cliff Golem example is quite simple. Regeneration isn't doing anything for you during the fight, and it isn't saving you time due to reducing your downtime. Therefore, you are getting nothing out of it.

You can watch my Cliff Golem example and do the math on how much extra mana I would have gotten from regeneration. You will find that it will not have reduced the fight time at all.

[Ripqozko]

956

[Jimjam]

IDK why we are so focused on cliff golems. They are piss easy and in my experience of playing warriors casts of torpor don’t get interrupted by bash. (Shaman isn’t tanking)

May as well be discussing the benefit of FSI vs Regen vs xp boost vs decaying skeletons.

Perhaps this story would be different in the priest subforums but idk, my shaman never tanked cliff golems in 1999-2001 era. My shaman is like level 80 or some other abomination level which shouldn’t exist.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

IDK why we are so focused on cliff golems. They are piss easy and in my experience of playing warriors casts of torpor don’t get interrupted by bash. (Shaman isn’t tanking)

May as well be discussing the benefit of FSI vs Regen vs xp boost vs decaying skeletons.

Perhaps this story would be different in the priest subforums but idk, my shaman never tanked cliff golems in 1999-2001 era. My shaman is like level 80 or some other abomination level which shouldn’t exist.

I am using it as an example of a high level fight a Torpor Shaman would encounter. I also have a video on that already posted so people can watch it to see real data.

We can use another example if you prefer and we can math that out.

[Jimjam]

Please use the example of decaying skeleton.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please use the example of decaying skeleton.

Don't worry about racials when fighting decaying skeletons:)

[Danth]

What gets me are some shaman players--NOT Shamwowi--talk about how much better their lives are due to having the ogre racial, when they're doing the same content the wife's shaman can do quite easily without it. How can it matter against stuff that's trivial? It must not be trivial for them! I remind myself not everyone has the same skill or ability; the ogre racial can cover for a few mistakes here and there a soloist may make if he is perhaps sloppier or less experienced. I don't like how limited the ogre trait is, though; it's inferior to regeneration from 1-59 and useless when not being hit. Ogre trait is useful in some specific circumstances but regeneration is a safer recommendation because absolutely anyone would benefit from it starting right away at level 1.

On my shadowknight I wouldn't mind having the ogre trait, but I'd want regeneration more because it's more useful a larger portion of the time.

Regeneration isn't going to help a warrior all that much except the oddball who goes against type and tries to solo a lot. So the ogre is better by default for that class. Even then it's not great and I consider the ogre too much of a billboard advertising a lack of confidence to be happy recommending it, but being big is nice when you need to quickly pick a tank out of a crowd of fifty people so ogre or troll, barb to a lesser extent, wins for them.

------------------------------------

As for community agreement, we don't get there because the difference in-game between any of these racial options is modest at most and we as players all place different weights on different parts of the game. Shamwowi, for example, puts more emphasis than some of us do on high-end solo capability, and his own opinions tend to reflect that. It's enough, at least to me, that about all of us agree that no racial is make-or-break in this game.

Danth

[Ripqozko]

954

[Snaggles]

yea back on the tank forum, no race is "superior".

If you need the stamina, your gear sucks.
If you need the racial perk, you suck.
If you need to know your race is superior to another race so you can feel good about your choice. Weird...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

yea back on the tank forum, no race is "superior".

If you need the stamina, your gear sucks.
If you need the racial perk, you suck.
If you need to know your race is superior to another race so you can feel good about your choice. Weird...

Or you can just enjoy playing the game with a slight edge via racials. Not sure why you are acting so negative.

The only people who seem to be insecure about their race choice are the people who hate FSI. I am not sure why they care so much.

[Ripqozko]

953

[Snaggles]

Or you can just enjoy playing the game with a slight edge via racials. Not sure why you are acting so negative.

The only people who seem to be insecure about their race choice are the people who hate FSI. I am not sure why they care so much.

A.) You cant prove the edge exists.
B.) I have no idea why touting racial superiority would ever be weird.

You get some perks for this, and less perks for that. Most people would trade fatty "perks" to level 15-20% faster because life starts at lvl 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A.) You cant prove the edge exists.
B.) I have no idea why touting racial superiority would ever be weird.

You get some perks for this, and less perks for that. Most people would trade fatty "perks" to level 15-20% faster because life starts at lvl 60.

A) Yes, you can. Thinking otherwise is just wrong, and some strange attempt at shutting down discussions.

B) Lol it is weird you think we are actually discussing race in that sense. This is just a game.

I am not sure why facts bother people so much. If people know which racials are best, they can make their own decision on what race to play.

[Ripqozko]

952

[Sweeper41]

I'm shocked you arent taking my side with FSI but also remember you have a troll SK.

We know where this thread is going. I'll bow out.
Yeah one he cant seem to lvl to 60

[greatdane]

A.) You cant prove the edge exists.

You are asking this in bad faith. You know that nobody can present you with numbers that show the value of not getting stunned when shit bashes you. You were aware, when you wrote your post, that nobody had any of the "proof" you then asked for, because it simply doesn't work that way. The whole premise of your argument is disingenuous and idiotic.

In short, you're a cunt. You know it, too. Anyone who has any sense in them will now know to ignore anything you ever write, because you have proven yourself to be a moron.

[Ripqozko]

You are asking this in bad faith. You know that nobody can present you with numbers that show the value of not getting stunned when shit bashes you. You were aware, when you wrote your post, that nobody had any of the "proof" you then asked for, because it simply doesn't work that way. The whole premise of your argument is disingenuous and idiotic.

In short, you're a cunt. You know it, too. Anyone who has any sense in them will now know to ignore anything you ever write, because you have proven yourself to be a moron.

Imagine being this mad in a thread about a racial in a 24 year old elf sim, full on yikes. Hope that helps. Consider throwing your pc against the wall.

[greatdane]

Nobody is likely to think you were right in this discussion, Ripqozko, if that's even your real name.

[Ripqozko]

Nobody is likely to think you were right in this discussion, Ripqozko, if that's even your real name.

Sorry you got cunt, hope that helps.

[greatdane]

Cunt is not a verb, man. What?

[Jimjam]

Cunt is not a verb, man. What?

You’re throwing ‘cunt’ around (not in a matey endearing ozzy way) on a predominantly USA chat. Why? Because people are enjoying a shared niche hobby wrong.

Hope this helps.

[greatdane]

I don't get it. It's a perfectly good word when used correctly. Thus far, I appear to be the only one who knows how to use the word. Everyone else is speaking gobbledi****.

edit: turns out that this forum natively censors the term g o o k, and that interferes with my use of gobbledi****.

[greatdane]

I like it when words convey the meaning that is intended by the writer of a sentence.

Beyond that one goal, I don't care so very much what the words might mean, if they're not used against someone or in order to press an opinion upon someone.

[greatdane]

Just in case anyone's not doing anything productive on their Saturday night, here's this. (https://youtu.be/zK6Eyc0Lgqc?t=229)

[Ripqozko]

Triple posting, super mad

[greatdane]

My hemorrhoids are making it hard to relax. It's very bothersome.

[greatdane]

I think we should raise awareness of hemorrhroids in our male demographic. I suspect I'm not the only guy in this community, and my arse hurts.

[greatdane]

I am proud to announce that I am, apparently, the last man in the world with hermorrhoids. It's such a relief to know that none of you will need to suffer from this terrible affliction. Trust me, it sucks.

[greatdane]

All that's left now is to get hold of a length of sturdy rope.

[Gustoo]

I can't hear you over the sound of you being stunned

Hehe

[long.liam]

What is the point of this post? I mean if you really think FSI is useless then why the need to say something about. Trying to convince yourself that it is really useless? Feeling a bit of regret for rolling an Ogre Shaman/SK/War whatever? I haven't actually tested it, but just from a anecdotal standpoint, never getting stunned by bashes from the front is a pretty huge deal, esp. for casters. Sure you can get by without, but Your SK/Shm/War will have less capability than one with it. If I have actual time, I will post some actual data from some my toons, just to provide some hard date for you.