Which race is better for Paladin: Dwarf or Half Elf?

[Uza Khan]

Hi all,

Just about to get started on P99 after a long 10+ year break. I've been looking around some of the various forum postings and I respect that everyone says, "Go with what you like", but I am somewhat torn between a couple of main points and I was hoping some of you knowledgeable guys & gals could help me please.

Dwarf: Best starting stats. Access to Brell Imbued cultural armor. +5 MR.
Half Elf: Mainly for access to Nature's Defender and Medium size. Also, a little fashion quest perhaps.

For the record, I know that this is an extremely small set of deciding points, and I'm sure there are probably more to consider, but I guess it could come down to essentially: is it worth having Nature's Defender (and maybe Hero Bracers) along the way for an HEF or does the mighty mini Dwarf get stuff just as good to make it worthwhile for the long haul?

The long haul is kind of what I'm trying to think about, but I love EQ and I would have a blast no matter which race I went with. I know raiding could also be a deciding factor as well, and ideally I will get to a point where I can do some of that as well because there was a lot of things I missed out on back when I first started playing in 1999 and there are lots of zones and mobs I simply need to see.

Just looking for some expert opinions and thoughts to help me make a choice. I appreciate everyone's time.

Thanks,

Uza

[strongNpretty]

Man, but what about a Erudite in that glorious, beautiful blue Imbued Cultural Armor?! We need more of them!

[Toxigen]

Kinda depends how much time you're going to put into this char.

If you know you'll never do the epic or raid, then absolutely go with half elf. Nature's Defender will be the best weapon possible.

If you're going to raid, play whatever you want. The 2 handers out of ToV are better than the epic...and you'll probably have plenty of opportunity to get the fiery sword too.

Don't overlook CHA for starting stats, especially if you plan on soloing in tight spots where lull / calm / paci will be important.

[Crede]

Hi all,

Just about to get started on P99 after a long 10+ year break. I've been looking around some of the various forum postings and I respect that everyone says, "Go with what you like", but I am somewhat torn between a couple of main points and I was hoping some of you knowledgeable guys & gals could help me please.

Dwarf: Best starting stats. Access to Brell Imbued cultural armor. +5 MR.
Half Elf: Mainly for access to Nature's Defender and Medium size. Also, a little fashion quest perhaps.

For the record, I know that this is an extremely small set of deciding points, and I'm sure there are probably more to consider, but I guess it could come down to essentially: is it worth having Nature's Defender (and maybe Hero Bracers) along the way for an HEF or does the mighty mini Dwarf get stuff just as good to make it worthwhile for the long haul?

The long haul is kind of what I'm trying to think about, but I love EQ and I would have a blast no matter which race I went with. I know raiding could also be a deciding factor as well, and ideally I will get to a point where I can do some of that as well because there was a lot of things I missed out on back when I first started playing in 1999 and there are lots of zones and mobs I simply need to see.

Just looking for some expert opinions and thoughts to help me make a choice. I appreciate everyone's time.

Thanks,

Uza

Dwarf is the better Paladin race, hands down. More str/sta/dex/wis, not to mention access to really good cultural armor. Half elves do have 30 more CHA, which can come in clutch if you plan to do a lot of dungeon soloing as Toxigen mentioned, but ultimately for either race I'd still suggest going CHA for your starting points if you plan to solo or WIS if you want to prioritize grouping/raiding.

With that being said, between the two, I'd play what you like to look at the most. Both look really cool in plate IMO. I do think that Dwarves look cooler with the Paladin epic if you do plan to get that, it's really not that hard. Nature's defender is a nice tanking weapon, but it's ratio is pretty bad so you will likely replace it fast if you plan to do any kind of soloing 30+(think Reaver & eventually Narandi's lance at 55). You can also 2h bash with epic which is really nice. If you plan to do any sort of raiding, I'd personally just go straight after the epic and skip the nature's defender.

[Snaggles]

Yea personal preferences on looks aside (which Id never suggest):

Dwarf = best casual with less lull emphasis (lowest CHA)
High elf = best BiS gear setup (most mana) with a lot of CHA for lulling

The Dwarf is going to have more hps and far more strength which helps without tink bags and high end raid loot. At 60 yaulp4 will give 40str so with Focus most people will cap or almost cap. It’s a struggle until then.

Really though most the races get a fun perk. Human and Dwarf being able to use a Frostreaver. Elves having Nature Defender access. Erudites with the 500p flurry shield.

Dwarves and Erudites (imho) look the best with this Deepwater Helm which you will have equipped most your life if a casual gamer soloing. Half elves and high elves are tolerable. The bucket helm for humans is pretty rough.

[Toxigen]

Dwarf for low budget casuals. Best bang-for-your-buck out of the gate.

If you're gonna raid and be oozing in stats it won't matter, pick whatever you think looks cool.

I went Human max CHA fwiw.

[pink grapefruit]

Dwarves are ugly alcoholics and the leading cause of climate change on Norrath. And they worship an evil god who created gnolls and other evil races. It’s pretty gross tbh

[Swish]

Side tip. Whether you go full CHA or not, grab a crude stein for when you lull. Definitely worth.

[Pint]

Dwarf bc elves are sissies

[Uza Khan]

Thanks guys for the replies and feedback. Appreciate it.

I have seen that for Dwarves, they are recommended to always put at least 5 into AGI before doing anything else, and that the rest could/should go CHA or WIS. I've seen plenty of posts talking about the min/max value is in CHA or WIS given that so much gear is STR/STA based.

Toxigen mentioned going full CHA as well. Seeing as how Dwarves are so abyssmally low in CHA, doesn't it make the most sense in this game to put the other 15 there? Or even all 20 for that matter?

Do you ever see Dwarven Paladins soloing using Lull? It seems like a character's level is the most important consideration when doing that, but like Swish said, you have to properly equip yourself.

I don't think I could make a mistake either way where I put the rest....it is just 15 points after all....but you guys have been around way longer and have seen much more than I have, and so your experiences & observed opinions do carry weight.

Thanks.

[Pint]

You'll use calm all the time but still go agi and wis

[Crede]

Thanks guys for the replies and feedback. Appreciate it.

I have seen that for Dwarves, they are recommended to always put at least 5 into AGI before doing anything else, and that the rest could/should go CHA or WIS. I've seen plenty of posts talking about the min/max value is in CHA or WIS given that so much gear is STR/STA based.

Toxigen mentioned going full CHA as well. Seeing as how Dwarves are so abyssmally low in CHA, doesn't it make the most sense in this game to put the other 15 there? Or even all 20 for that matter?

Do you ever see Dwarven Paladins soloing using Lull? It seems like a character's level is the most important consideration when doing that, but like Swish said, you have to properly equip yourself.

I don't think I could make a mistake either way where I put the rest....it is just 15 points after all....but you guys have been around way longer and have seen much more than I have, and so your experiences & observed opinions do carry weight.

Thanks.

I’d go all 20 into cha. Can raise agi with items like barbed dragonscale Pauldrons. Can also camp stuff like the cat o nine tails for agi proc. You will def cast lull/calm/paci/dw arms if you plan to solo/small group so it’s definitely a thing. You can stack cha items and luminary two handed sword proc for more cha, but never hurts to have more of it innately.

[Ripqozko]

Go all sta and appreciate needing less pure sta items at 60

[Petes meat]

With a few cheap/easy to acquire items like the stein mentioned earlier and

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kobold_Jester%27s_Crown

https://wiki.project1999.com/Luminary_Two_Handed_Sword

CHA is pretty easy to get boosted. I wouldn't let cha be a deciding factor on race choice. I vote for dwarf.

[Snaggles]

Overseer rings are nice too.

Really it just depends on how you play. Lulling full rooms in lower guk? I would pack some CHA gear to cut down on the panic moments. Without Enstill root camping is very difficult (30 sec or so on “Root” for max duration).

Splitting two spawns in like HK, Oggok or Grobb? The zone is so close.

I’d prob go dwarf. Cultural armor, stamina. Would set you up really good casual or for raiding. Maybe Wisdom if going to be an extreme raider. Or CHA if a solo adventurer.

Or just pick any race you want. If you like HE more every time you see one you will be a little jealous. Or whatever that first choice was. You have to stare at the character a lot…

[Crede]

You'll use calm all the time but still go agi and wis

Calm all the time but rare occasion youll need 20 extra wis/agi.

Sounds like a no brainer, the community has voted OP - Dwarf with 20 into CHA - Enjoy that cultural armor and lookin like a boss. Once you obtain epic you'll never even think about the nature's defender.

[Crede]

Overseer rings are nice too.

Really it just depends on how you play. Lulling full rooms in lower guk? I would pack some CHA gear to cut down on the panic moments. Without Enstill root camping is very difficult (30 sec or so on “Root” for max duration).

Splitting two spawns in like HK, Oggok or Grobb? The zone is so close.

I’d prob go dwarf. Cultural armor, stamina. Would set you up really good casual or for raiding. Maybe Wisdom if going to be an extreme raider. Or CHA if a solo adventurer.

Or just pick any race you want. If you like HE more every time you see one you will be a little jealous. Or whatever that first choice was. You have to stare at the character a lot…

Yes, those rings are great. I'd keep em equipped pretty much 24/7 on pally. Nice ac, dex, and resists too to complement the cultural armor MR & dwarf natty MR.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Overseer%27s_Signet

[Keebz]

Do you want to look like a Half Elf or a Dwarf? Both are fine options.

As for the 5 AGI, there's an AC penalty if you're under 75 AGI. Dwarves start with 70. You can put 5 starting points into AGI, or you can just get 5 AGI from your gear somewhere.

Personally I'd do Half Elf, but the barrel roll is pretty fucking cool, ngl.

[radbeard]

As people have said, it really depends on what your goals are. I've been leveling a paladin recently, just hit 45 yesterday. I have mostly done small group and solo things. For this reliable lulls make a night and day difference. It is much easier to fight one mob then three and the extra dwarven strength doesn't change that.

If you are mostly interested in dungeons (and as a paladin that is probably what you should be targeting) then I think High Elf and charisma focus is the best option. Yes you probably won't max out strength or stamina unless you become a raider at 60. And you can feel those loss of stats, but not as acutely as you can feel being able to reliably lull things to grab only the target you want.

[Pint]

You're getting played on all this cha advice. You'll throw the cha items in your bags and never bother to actually equip them. Critical calm resists are just part of the game and 20 extra starter cha isn't going to change that in any meaningful way. 5 agi on the dwarf is a must then the best stat is wis bc it'll be harder to gear around then sta

[Toxigen]

You're getting played on all this cha advice. You'll throw the cha items in your bags and never bother to actually equip them. Critical calm resists are just part of the game and 20 extra starter cha isn't going to change that in any meaningful way. 5 agi on the dwarf is a must then the best stat is wis bc it'll be harder to gear around then sta

meh

i solo'd on my paladin

not getting crist resists made for much higher xp/hour

to each dey own doe

[eqravenprince]

I'm casual, I put all the points into Strength and didn't regret it. The early levels are the hardest anyhow where strength makes the biggest difference. Late game, you'll have amazing gear boosting all stats, who cares if not completely maxed in this or that, it probably won't make a difference like strength early in the game did for you.

[Crede]

I'm casual, I put all the points into Strength and didn't regret it. The early levels are the hardest anyhow where strength makes the biggest difference. Late game, you'll have amazing gear boosting all stats, who cares if not completely maxed in this or that, it probably won't make a difference like strength early in the game did for you.

Str is a cool option for leveling. It’s fun if you can just chill at max str which isn’t exactly easy to do even with pretty good twinkage. I wouldn’t recommend it though if you want to get serious about your character at 60.

[Trelaboon]

I’d definitely put the 5 points into agility and then. I personally would put the rest into wisdom as a dwarf, as charisma is an easy stat to bump for the purposes of lulling and is only really beneficial when soloing. I solo a lot on mine so the charisma is worth it, but I’d rather have mana over the solo help later on.

To answer the question, Dwarf is better in nearly every single metric. The only benefit to the half elf is not having to put five points into agility, but even with that considered, your stats will be better on the dwarf.

[jolanar]

If you don't plan on soloing much then charisma probably isn't a big deal at all. But if you aren't planning on soloing then race doesn't matter anyways.

[Crede]

I’d definitely put the 5 points into agility and then. I personally would put the rest into wisdom as a dwarf, as charisma is an easy stat to bump for the purposes of lulling and is only really beneficial when soloing. I solo a lot on mine so the charisma is worth it, but I’d rather have mana over the solo help later on.

To answer the question, Dwarf is better in nearly every single metric. The only benefit to the half elf is not having to put five points into agility, but even with that considered, your stats will be better on the dwarf.

What’s the thing with agility? I don’t really get it, it’s not hard to get to 75 agi via items in velious.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What’s the thing with agility? I don’t really get it, it’s not hard to get to 75 agi via items in velious.

It just makes your gear more flexible, because you are swapping out gear for clickies, resistance pieces, etc. A lot of gear doesn't have AGI on it, so you are forcing yourself to have at least one piece with it on at all times. Much better in most cases just to put 5 into it at the beginning.

[Crede]

It just makes your gear more flexible, because you are swapping out gear for clickies, resistance pieces, etc. A lot of gear doesn't have AGI on it, so you are forcing yourself to have at least one piece with it on at all times. Much better in most cases just to put 5 into it at the beginning.

+6 neck will get you above the AGI penalty, same with the Crown of Narandi, both items that will basically never be replaced and will get you resists as well.

If you do end up replacing them and obtaining BiS, you will still be well above the AGI cap:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Paladin_BIS

Along with things like avatar & cat o nine tails, I don't see the value in that 5 extra AGI. Maybe in classic, but it's simply overkill in Velious due to the number of good agility items out there.

Dwarves should be going 20 into CHA if they plan to solo/group. If they never plan to solo/group at 60 and only raid, then WIS would be a better option.

[Spaerhawk]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Paladin_BIS


https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZGE0ZDczYTViNTY1NjIwNDIzMTM2ZGF hOTNmYzZhMGM1NDViNTEzOSZjdD1n/cMV9akgudJiRW/giphy.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

+6 neck will get you above the AGI penalty, same with the Crown of Narandi, both items that will basically never be replaced and will get you resists as well.

If you do end up replacing them and obtaining BiS, you will still be well above the AGI cap:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Paladin_BIS

Along with things like avatar & cat o nine tails, I don't see the value in that 5 extra AGI. Maybe in classic, but it's simply overkill in Velious due to the number of good agility items out there.

Dwarves should be going 20 into CHA if they plan to solo/group. If they never plan to solo/group at 60 and only raid, then WIS would be a better option.

Your magic resistance isn't capped, even with 6 neck or https://wiki.project1999.com/Valtron%60s_Necklace_of_Wonder .

https://wiki.project1999.com/Amulet_of_the_Storm is a great swap for magic resistance, but you would lose the agility on the neck slot, as an example.

I am not saying you are wrong. Full BiS should have AGI on one piece. If you really want to maximize every point, and you know exactly what gear you are going to get, then you can avoid putting the 5 points into AGI.

For most players, the 5 AGI is the better option. I also did the 5 AGI as an Ogre, so I could get from 70 to 75. I don't regret it, since I never have to worry about AGI on my items, or worry about using an AGI buff.

I have raid gear in most of my slots, but only three pieces actually have AGI on it, my neck piece, my face, and my legs. My neck piece gets swapped out for https://wiki.project1999.com/Amulet_of_the_Storm when I need more MR. The pants are basically BiS for Shamans, so technically I don't need the +5 AGI. However, my Lodi Shield cancels out my leg bonus with -5 AGI, so I am only getting AGI from my face slot at the end of the day when swapping for resistances. I can maintain one agility piece at all times, but that is because I have an AGI piece that is also a great resistance piece for the slot.

[Toxigen]

+6 neck will get you above the AGI penalty, same with the Crown of Narandi, both items that will basically never be replaced and will get you resists as well.

If you do end up replacing them and obtaining BiS, you will still be well above the AGI cap:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Paladin_BIS

Along with things like avatar & cat o nine tails, I don't see the value in that 5 extra AGI. Maybe in classic, but it's simply overkill in Velious due to the number of good agility items out there.

Dwarves should be going 20 into CHA if they plan to solo/group. If they never plan to solo/group at 60 and only raid, then WIS would be a better option.

The cool thing about being a terribly geared paladin is that you can still do the two most important things: cast DS and click your soulfire.

[Jimjam]

Sure you can add +5 agi easy from items, but the time you need to avoid hits most is when you have 0 mitigation (naked). Thats why you want base agi to be 75 - it helps while CRing.

[Snaggles]

A fungi tunic drops you 10 agil. It might impact things for most of your leveling life without having to wear something less than ideal (like obsidian bead hoops).

In the end having 5-10 wasted agility at char creation isn’t a big deal. I don’t think at least. That said I put 20 points into Str instead of stamina (70 base) and still barely cap str with Focus and Yaulp4. Mid grade tanking gear and even some solid ToV drops like the Gozz cloak aren’t loaded with it.

[Uza Khan]

So, it does appear to be generally safe to just go +5 AGI then CHA or WIS.

I have seen a lot of people talk about the ability of Paladins to do a pretty decent job of soloing, even if it can be slow, and I definitely want to be able to do the same. I do see myself grouping as much as possible (because its fun to spend time with others gamers), but yeah, once I get certain pieces of gear, I would like to solo some.

That's why I guess I'm just leaning into CHA as the secondary stat....to help make the solo aspect a little more safe whenever I do get the chance to do so.

Do you guys know of Dwarven Paladins who've done this successfully?

I read about all the other races who solo, I guess because they all have much higher starting CHA.

Does this mean that Dwarven Paladins need to give up that dream and just focus on group play?

[Toxigen]

Do you guys know of Dwarven Paladins who've done this successfully?



you could dump everything into dex and do it successfully

this game is easy as fuck just make the char and get going

[Snaggles]

With a crude stein and a couple basics lulling isn’t dangerous. Also don’t wear crusty armor.

I soloed to 60 easily and never died to a crit fail. Hunt bear a zone and you will never have an issue between root and loh on the run. Later you even get Divine Aura.

I wouldn’t sweat it. I would prob only do wis if you plan on raiding a bit. If not, stamina.

This is not a good comparison but a DE sk with points in Stamina (90 base). Even replacing the thurg bp and legs with the pally equivalent it’s going to be pretty close. a dwarf with stamina would be closer to the 205 target.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight

[Toxigen]

With a crude stein and a couple basics lulling isn’t dangerous. Also don’t wear crusty armor.

I soloed to 60 easily and never died to a crit fail. Hunt bear a zone and you will never have an issue between root and loh on the run. Later you even get Divine Aura.

I wouldn’t sweat it. I would prob only do wis if you plan on raiding a bit. If not, stamina.

This is not a good comparison but a DE sk with points in Stamina (90 base). Even replacing the thurg bp and legs with the pally equivalent it’s going to be pretty close. a dwarf with stamina would be closer to the 205 target.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight

Its less about being dangerous / risk of death than it is about mana efficiency.

Fewer resists --> less mana

fewer crit resists --> a lot less mana

[Snaggles]

Its less about being dangerous / risk of death than it is about mana efficiency.

Fewer resists --> less mana

fewer crit resists --> a lot less mana

Unless I’m misunderstanding you, having more CHA won’t impact success vs fail, just reduces your chance for a crit fail. Past 45 with DW arms it’s free soothing. So yea, a crit fail can make things dicey if it happens but for me getting to a place of diminishing returns is fairly easy. The bump from 65 to like 130’s for example. Unless pacifying out the Queen room 255 isn’t really “needed”.

Unless you are lulling nasties in like Chardok or Seb I just don’t see it an issue having less CHA. The last time I stacked it was splitting out unrest basement since there are like half a dozen spawns. Splitting two spawns in oggok, Grobb or HK only has to be done once if you can keep up with respawns. It’s pretty low impact work.

Literally the only time I go fill CHA mode is when I’m pacifying to like PH in Kael. Even then for the adventure more than the necessity.

To each their own. I just think it’s overplayed and again have a full set I’m constantly looking for a reason to justify using.

[Ennewi]

There are some situations where it isn't a matter of lull splitting and keeping up with respawns though, like when farming dwarf heads in the gd mines. Two guards have to be lulled if killing all of the miners, and they will resist more often than not. And with 130+ cha, crit resists are common enough there. Blowing through invis rings is the other option, but not great since bag space is most important even with alts parked to ground transfer.

[Ripqozko]

There are some situations where it isn't a matter of lull splitting and keeping up with respawns though, like when farming dwarf heads in the gd mines. Two guards have to be lulled if killing all of the miners, and they will resist more often than not. And with 130+ cha, crit resists are common enough there. Blowing through invis rings is the other option, but not great since bag space is most important even with alts parked to ground transfer.

Option C roll a ranger for it

[Snaggles]

Yea those guards are level 50 and crazy high MR. Plus the nearest zone is a ways off. I’d prob roll another char to farm. Really anything with Invis or a lowbie necro for FD killing.

[Crede]

So, it does appear to be generally safe to just go +5 AGI then CHA or WIS.

I have seen a lot of people talk about the ability of Paladins to do a pretty decent job of soloing, even if it can be slow, and I definitely want to be able to do the same. I do see myself grouping as much as possible (because its fun to spend time with others gamers), but yeah, once I get certain pieces of gear, I would like to solo some.

That's why I guess I'm just leaning into CHA as the secondary stat....to help make the solo aspect a little more safe whenever I do get the chance to do so.

Do you guys know of Dwarven Paladins who've done this successfully?

I read about all the other races who solo, I guess because they all have much higher starting CHA.

Does this mean that Dwarven Paladins need to give up that dream and just focus on group play?

Dwarf pally solo build can absolutely plow through content. They have all the tools you need to dungeon crawl if you can gear them properly. Despite all this CHA talk you ultimately still have root/lay hands/soulfire/DA to fall back on. It's really hard to die as a Pally. 5 AGI, 15 CHA is good option for a Dwarf. You really have to weight your gear options, if that extra 5 AGI makes you more comfy going to bed at night, go with it. However me personally I would go 20 CHA, since I have no problems making up the extra AGI while still wearing a fungi(which you can ditch at 45 for a DW bp) & lodi shield - which puts you at 55 AGI. Crown of narandi + barbed dragonscale pauldrons + seahorse belt = 76 AGI. Really depends on your level of twinkage you could also use the seahorse spine bracelet which comes with 5 str/5 AGI/10 CHA. People talking about the extra 5 for CRs & resists is very niche. I think statistically you're better off with more CHA on a CR vs having some extra AC trying to live naked when shit goes south(I use my rogue for CRs anyway, much more effective).

Either way it's a fantastic class and I'm sure you'll have a blast.

[Toxigen]

You don't ditch a fungi for DW BP.

You use both.

[Trelaboon]

What’s the thing with agility? I don’t really get it, it’s not hard to get to 75 agi via items in velious.

I just don't want to ever have to worry about an AC penalty. Especially if you consider a fungi has -10 agility on it. If you're twinking, and wearing a fungi, you're already at 60 agility as a Dwarf. Once your gear is well established, its not a huge concern, but I don't personally want to have to worry about it while leveling. Especially if they're NOT twinking, you're gonna take an AC hit until you reach a point that your gear can offset the that -5 agility, which might not happen right away.

You mention things like +6 neck and Crown of Narandi, but you're not gonna see either of those until well into your 50's, often not until 60, unless you're a twink.

I guess its ultimately personal preference, but I want my naked AC to reach the minimum required amount to avoid the penalty.

[Ennewi]

Above a certain number, AGI really should've given a bonus to AC about as noticeable as the penalty imo, and then below another number lower than 75, an additional penalty. Djarns Amethyst Ring is a good way to offset Fungi Tunic, but more expensive than the standard wedding rings. So definitely have to agree with investing points and removing any concerns if not an agile race / loaded with coin.

[Crede]

I just don't want to ever have to worry about an AC penalty. Especially if you consider a fungi has -10 agility on it. If you're twinking, and wearing a fungi, you're already at 60 agility as a Dwarf. Once your gear is well established, its not a huge concern, but I don't personally want to have to worry about it while leveling. Especially if they're NOT twinking, you're gonna take an AC hit until you reach a point that your gear can offset the that -5 agility, which might not happen right away.

You mention things like +6 neck and Crown of Narandi, but you're not gonna see either of those until well into your 50's, often not until 60, unless you're a twink.

I guess its ultimately personal preference, but I want my naked AC to reach the minimum required amount to avoid the penalty.

If you can afford a fungi, you should have no issues getting above 75 agility. There's tons of cheap AGI items in Velious. I 100% get the argument from Classic-Kunark.

Naked AC seems like mostly a CR thing, but I have my rogue do all my risky CRs, so I don't really care about that. I've done quite a few melee builds, and always wished I went CHA with my pally. That's what I'd do next time around, but to each their own.

[Bockscar]

If it's specifically for soloing, dwarf isn't that interesting. Stamina barely matters when soloing, it's only really relevant when others are healing you and a larger HP pool makes it more efficient for them. The high strength is alright but it's by far the easiest stat to raise. Dwarves have to put five points into agility if you're starting without twink gear, so that's five fewer points to spend elsewhere. They have by far the lowest charisma of all the races, and you can easily argue that this is the most important stat for soloing.

I would go high elf or human if soloing is a big part of your plans. The only time I really favor dwarf is if someone's trying real hard to be the best raiding paladin that one can be. In pretty much any other setting, dwarves are kind of underwhelming. They're decidedly bad solo, and in a group it doesn't really matter much unless you're tasked with lulling, in which case dwarf is also the very worst race. Your strength is largely irrelevant, as is stamina frankly when not tanking raid content.

Having less than 75 agility sucks until surprisingly late into the game. In classic, you could very well be in a situation where none of the gear you want to wear has agi on it. Of the paladin planar set, only the legs have agi, and they're some pretty terrible legs anyway. In Kunark, you're in the same boat: very little tank gear with agility. The DW chest and legs do have it, but these are not items everyone just has access to. NoS has +5 but it's absurdly expensive during Kunark. There's none on the pally epic.

Sure, you can wear a serpentine bracer or cat's eye whatever necklace or some shit, but then we're getting into the territory of calculating how much other stuff you're giving up just to fix the agility problem. It's really not until you get into Velious endgame gear that having agility somewhere is a given. I remember struggling with this a lot on an ogre SK back in live. There wasn't agility on any of the items I actually wanted to wear until Velious. By and large, dwarves only get 15 stat points to allocate.

[Toxigen]

Human max cha god tier paladin all knows

[Trelaboon]

If you can afford a fungi, you should have no issues getting above 75 agility. There's tons of cheap AGI items in Velious. I 100% get the argument from Classic-Kunark.

Naked AC seems like mostly a CR thing, but I have my rogue do all my risky CRs, so I don't really care about that. I've done quite a few melee builds, and always wished I went CHA with my pally. That's what I'd do next time around, but to each their own.

I agree, to each their own, but assuming I were to take off my Breastplate if Eradication and wear a fungi instead, I’d be at 92 agility. My gear isn’t amazing but it’s descent by all means. If I were a dwarf, instead of a High Elf, I’d be at 77 agility with a fungi on. That’s passing, but it’s a little close for comfort for me. I just think the 5 agility is absolutely a must, but again, different strokes. So much of Paladins “good” gear doesn’t have agility on it, unless you’re hitting BiS items. It’s hp/sta as a primary focus.

[Snaggles]

I still stand that for almost every class (if not every class) race is such a small decision it wont impact your game. I’ve seen a number of dwarf paladins solo and crawl The Hole, likely without any CHA gear at all. Some players tend to theorycraft and prep with bags of backup gear, some just keep a cap charged and YOLO.

I still remember one random tell to my 60 eru paladin asking if I regret my decision and if it has been limiting in what I can do. As shocking (and funny) as it was, I just explained if SK’s can justify a swing of about 50 str/stam and 40 intel either way at creation screen it’s a much smaller difference for a paladin.

Play what you like the look of. Or what you have nostalgia with. Or a race that has access to an item you are lusting for (I still want a Natures Defender even if I wouldn’t use it; I would occasionally use a Frostreaver). You can definitely make up for or make do with what you have. If you know how to quickly pick targets, grab/hold aggro, and shut down gaters, people won’t care about anything else. For a solo player just don’t die, easy! After 59 you can even self rez so life is very self sufficient even if you are soloing somewhere strange.

[Bockscar]

When someone asks for race advice, the most useless answer anyone can give them is "it doesn't matter." It does matter, it just doesn't determine what you can or can't do. A difference of 30 in a stat matters just as much in character creation as it does on an item, and we all know what people would pay for an ammo slot item with +30 to almost any stat. The difference between the races is noticeable, it just isn't disqualifying.

[Snaggles]

If it mattered that much everyone would be dwarves.

If I had a dwarf I’d only be able to get my CHA to 195. Outside those fill-lull modes my stats would be be better across the board. More str, more dex, more stam.

At least if you roll a dwarf go with a lady. Those horns are fire.

[Bockscar]

Wait, are you trying to argue that because there are people who play non-dwarf paladins, that's proof that stats don't do anything? Because that's essentially what you're saying.

[Snaggles]

When someone asks for race advice, the most useless answer anyone can give them is "it doesn't matter." It does matter, it just doesn't determine what you can or can't do. A difference of 30 in a stat matters just as much in character creation as it does on an item, and we all know what people would pay for an ammo slot item with +30 to almost any stat. The difference between the races is noticeable, it just isn't disqualifying.

I assumed this was aimed towards me but could have been wrong.
A page previous you mentioned dwarves are bad at soloing and are mainly for optimized raid toons. Human or elf were your suggestions for the ideal solo paladin.

No Time To Rez had a dwarf make it to 60 without dying, leveling in The Hole for the 50’s. Either they invested in like 2k worth of CHA gear or just dealt with it. Either way it’s fully possible.

I soloed a pally to 60, it was easy as an erudite even. No fungi, no dw bp, my narandi didn’t get upgraded until 59. I didn’t get the knight melee table upgraded or the scaling damage bonus until 60. If people struggle soloing these days I feel bad for them, but let’s not play this as a difficult task. It’s just a time consuming one.

Tl; Dr: yes, stats matter but aren’t gamebreaking/making. Agreed.

[sajbert]

I think Dwarf is fine. I’d wager high elf is best with top tier gear, if you don’t cap stats with BIS gear (which you will never get) then you will cap it with a primal aside from wis and cha which High Elf has the most of. Iirc dwarves do get 5MR though and they’ll have more dex meaning that (unless u cap with BIS gear which I think you don’t or you are dex buffed or unless you invest in beads to proc primal before a fight) dwarves proc primal a bit faster.

For the vast majority of players however a Dwarf has MUCH better melee stats at the cost of charisma. Dump all points into charisma and compensate with a Kobold Jester’s Crown + Glamour sword buff for pulls and you will be able to reach good cha with good velious gear. Pre-velious however I’d say you’d have a hard time getting good use out of lulling and I honestly don’t know why you’d play a paladin without lulls.

I guess Erudite can be a contender too, atrocious melee stats like High Elves but you get the MR bonus and your wisdom is decent and your charisma is not Dwarf levels of garbage.

[Ghost of Starman]

I think Dwarf is fine. I’d wager high elf is best with top tier gear, if you don’t cap stats with BIS gear (which you will never get) then you will cap it with a primal aside from wis and cha which High Elf has the most of. Iirc dwarves do get 5MR though and they’ll have more dex meaning that (unless u cap with BIS gear which I think you don’t or you are dex buffed or unless you invest in beads to proc primal before a fight) dwarves proc primal a bit faster.

For the vast majority of players however a Dwarf has MUCH better melee stats at the cost of charisma. Dump all points into charisma and compensate with a Kobold Jester’s Crown + Glamour sword buff for pulls and you will be able to reach good cha with good velious gear. Pre-velious however I’d say you’d have a hard time getting good use out of lulling and I honestly don’t know why you’d play a paladin without lulls.

I guess Erudite can be a contender too, atrocious melee stats like High Elves but you get the MR bonus and your wisdom is decent and your charisma is not Dwarf levels of garbage.

Human is the best choice for Pally, CHA is only 5 less than high elf but 20 more STR and 10 more STA. WIS is also quite good. You also have tons of great looking cultural options based on your religion choice. Dump your points in CHA if you wanna do dungeon stuff, or dump in WIS.

[Snaggles]

Human is the best choice for Pally, CHA is only 5 less than high elf but 20 more STR and 10 more STA. WIS is also quite good. You also have tons of great looking cultural options based on your religion choice. Dump your points in CHA if you wanna do dungeon stuff, or dump in WIS.

Yea but 20 less wisdom. That's basically one extra celestial cleansing or half a Wave of Healing.

I think it's really splitting hairs here. Unlike SK's it's not massive stat swings with some paladins having slam.

[sajbert]

Human is the best choice for Pally, CHA is only 5 less than high elf but 20 more STR and 10 more STA. WIS is also quite good. You also have tons of great looking cultural options based on your religion choice. Dump your points in CHA if you wanna do dungeon stuff, or dump in WIS.

Human can be a contender too, if it's ultimately better than a High Elf will sort of depend on if you can cap relevant stats with full BIS.

High Elf wis is better than human, but once again depends on gear but even with full BIS I suspect you won't cap wis together with all the melee attributes.

Dwarves can't wear robes but both High Elves and Erudites and Humans can.

So in my view, ultimately Dwarves can't be the best race (even with the MR bonus) once you're dolled up in BIS or near BIS but that applies to very few players indeed. Until then however and as long as you compensate for your lack of cha in one way or another I think you'll do just fine.

[Ennewi]

Since it seems all racial distinctions are being considered, dwarves were the only classic paladin race that could wield the Butcherblock Hammer. Not that any player should pin their hopes on receiving an artifact now, but looking at the item from the OG developers' POV, no other paladin race was given a chance at those superior healing procs. A hail mary in terms of gearing a character, but technically classic so it's worth bringing it up in the conversation even as a footnote.

[Pint]

Since it seems all racial distinctions are being considered, dwarves were the only classic paladin race that could wield the Butcherblock Hammer. Not that any player should pin their hopes on receiving an artifact now, but looking at the item from the OG developers' POV, no other paladin race was given a chance at those superior healing procs. A hail mary in terms of gearing a character, but technically classic so it's worth bringing it up in the conversation even as a footnote.

But the butcher block hammer is negative 10 cha and as all the yahoos in this thread keep repeating you just gotta have that extra cha for leveling. Advising ppl who are new or casual that the stat they want on their paladin is cha is top tier lol. Not a single person itt has a clue what the actual statistical difference is between x cha number and the chance to crit resist a calm is. Spoiler alert 35 str is a significantly better stat then 35 cha for a casual melee trying to level and it's not even a competition.

[Trelaboon]

Human can be a contender too, if it's ultimately better than a High Elf will sort of depend on if you can cap relevant stats with full BIS.

High Elf wis is better than human, but once again depends on gear but even with full BIS I suspect you won't cap wis together with all the melee attributes.

I’m not even close to full BiS and cap melee stats easily with FoS/Stam and my primal. High elf definitely is better than human, even in very average raid gear, but ultimately it doesn’t really matter. Velious definitely made the whole “play what you enjoy” concept much more feasible.

[Ennewi]

But the butcher block hammer is negative 10 cha and as all the yahoos in this thread keep repeating you just gotta have that extra cha for leveling. Advising ppl who are new or casual that the stat they want on their paladin is cha is top tier lol. Not a single person itt has a clue what the actual statistical difference is between x cha number and the chance to crit resist a calm is. Spoiler alert 35 str is a significantly better stat then 35 cha for a casual melee trying to level and it's not even a competition.

Tbf, there was a thread about it a while back: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327383

Old 06-07-2019, 08:12 PM
A1551 A1551 is offline
Sarnak

A1551's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 204

in 200 attempts, at 255 CHA, 12 crit resists, or a 6% rate.

...

Just as a reminder, the results from original test were:
95 Cha, 200 tests -- 71 critical resists (ie 35.5% crit rate)
200 Cha, 200 tests -- 15 critical resists (ie 7% crit rate)

...

Another way to look at this, if you're fighting low blue mobs consistently and lull is resisting only 1/4 times (these numbers are pulled from my ass for the sake of an estimate only, I have no idea what it would actually be, although I feel like low blues generally rarely resist so this may even be conservative), with the Crit rates above, you'd basically be getting a crit failure every:

95 cha (35.5%) - Crit every 11.3 casts
200 cha (7%) - Crit every 57.1 casts
255 cha (6%) - Crit every 66.7 casts


Need someone to perform similar tests with divine intervention, not that clerics would waste the emeralds on a paladin since they already blow through enough reagents as is on regular buffs, but still, wouldn't hurt testing on a warrior for general info. Much more of a pita to do though obviously.

[Snaggles]

Yea Ennewi. I recall that thread and how returns did diminish with higher CHA. Not to say a crit resist in seb is exactly low impact but if true the results from 65 to 150 is massive.

If I was worried about a solo adventure I’d get the basic items and not sweat the rest. I carry them all including a near full set of Ragefire armor (no BP) and some non-visual pieces but just never click that much:

Glamour proc sword: 32
Overseer signet x2: 16
Crude stein: 15
Jester crown: 30
Total: 93

That puts a dwarf at 148 and most races much higher. Glamour scales with level but even at 26 when the Luminary sword procs you would get 29 so a total of 145.

[Ripqozko]

I’m not even close to full BiS and cap melee stats easily with FoS/Stam and my primal. High elf definitely is better than human, even in very average raid gear, but ultimately it doesn’t really matter. Velious definitely made the whole “play what you enjoy” concept much more feasible.

i just now cap sta on my pally and my gears better, if you arent going full bis, sta is the way

[Snaggles]

i just now cap sta on my pally and my gears better, if you arent going full bis, sta is the way

Same here. 70 base STA and all Hp gear. I need a Rocksmasher to hit 214 unbuffed STA.

[Ripqozko]

Same here. 70 base STA and all Hp gear. I need a Rocksmasher to hit 214 unbuffed STA.

i also never felt like i needed more then 100cha, i never had issues going through lets say hole to meet a group. at worst you can root/camp in most dungeons. its really not that big of deal, capping sta if you ever plan to raid is nice tho.

[Gustoo]

It’s a tough call I gotta say.

For a new server high elf is a shitty road you’re gunna be weak for the entire best era

Long term a high elf stats are gunna be better

But don’t play a race you hate the looks of. Human is a good
Middle ground I guess you get to be a respectable citizen but also OK stats. Blind sucks with the new weird darkness

[Bockscar]

It really sucks to play human or erudite now with the darkness. There are almost no infravision or ultravision items that you actually want to wear. I guess erudites have that shield, but whatever. It sucks ass all the way up until you get some Velious endgame item that just happens to have it as a worn effect, and there aren't even that many of those. Prior to that, you pretty much have to wear some really bad item just so you can see. It's horrible when you don't have it built into an item that you would wear anyway regardless. And no, items with the glow effect are not the same and don't do enough.

[sajbert]

It really sucks to play human or erudite now with the darkness. There are almost no infravision or ultravision items that you actually want to wear. I guess erudites have that shield, but whatever. It sucks ass all the way up until you get some Velious endgame item that just happens to have it as a worn effect, and there aren't even that many of those. Prior to that, you pretty much have to wear some really bad item just so you can see. It's horrible when you don't have it built into an item that you would wear anyway regardless. And no, items with the glow effect are not the same and don't do enough.

Myep. That’s why you roll paladin on Green 2.0 and get a Guise and be the man your girlfriend wants you to be. You’ll still technically have blue balls though, unless you went female paladin which is peak fashion until velious with dark elf cone helmets.

[Snaggles]

I would situationally use a Stalwart Seas shield or swap in a Glowing Stone Band if I got turned around until I got a Crown of Hatred. The shield is in the bank for CR’s.

Eyepatch of The Shadows is decent. Less so if you are stam capped but it’s certainly tolerable for most folks.

[Ripqozko]

I would situationally use a Stalwart Seas shield or swap in a Glowing Stone Band if I got turned around until I got a Crown of Hatred. The shield is in the bank for CR’s.

Eyepatch of The Shadows is decent. Less so if you are stam capped but it’s certainly tolerable for most folks.

I wear the lord bob ring, stats aint that bad, no blindness. C u in velious.

[bobjonesp99]

On a fresh server, dwarf is BIS. If you are going to play casually, dwarf is BIS. If its an established server, you are twinking, and plan to get high end raid gear, high elf is BIS.

all that said, its a 20+ y/o elf sim, play what sounds fun to you. if you go hardcore it wont really matter in the end anyways. if you dont go hardcore, does it really matter anyways?

[Crede]

Yea I know people even in velious that raided high elf and wished they were dwarf for the extra stamina.

People talk about bis velious like it’s nothing. Pretty much 99.9% of people will never get there, starting stats differences are no joke in a game of inches.

[Ripqozko]

Yea I know people even in velious that raided high elf and wished they were dwarf for the extra stamina.

People talk about bis velious like it’s nothing. Pretty much 99.9% of people will never get there, starting stats differences are no joke in a game of inches.

Yea as human I just barely cap now with putting in stam and my gear is pretty good.

[arc]

I think I went 15 stam on my dwarf along w the agi

seems ok

[arc]

dorfs get the barrel roll which puts them above elves regardless of stats tbh

[pink grapefruit]

High Elf

Excellent choice, imo tied with half elves as best race for paladin. Can only worship Tunare, but if you want to rp a nature knight this is the obvious choice. Highest wis AND cha, very low str (which does hurt!).

Half Elf

Again, tied with high elf as best race. Tunare is a good rp option here, but honestly all the deity options are. Rodcet or Erollisi half elf would be quality rp. Half elves are fun from a rp perspective bc they're those sad people that don't truly belong in a culture and have to do the found family thing. Lowest wis which is painful, but do not have the str issues of high elves.

Erudite

Tbh I think erudite and human are tied for second place. Quellious is the most sensible deity choice and it would be a lot of fun to rp as the "fighting for peace" type. Prexus is a strange way to go but I'm sure some have pulled it off and enjoy it. Erudin is a nifty starting city, though until Warrens most erudites gtfo Odus asap I think. Low str again like high elves, but the innate mr is very very nice. Blindness sucks hard.

Human

Tied with erudite for second place. Humans are like less cool versions of half elves kinda with stats that are balanced. Very good deity options, with the best imo being Rodcet and Erollisi. I was thinking the other day that a Karana paladin RPed as communist could be hilarious. Blind af again.

Dwarf

Dwarf paladins aren't true paladins in a RP sense as Brell is a destructive force of evil that harms the environment and everyone in it, and dwarves actually lack the capacity for complex emotions and are incapable of empathy. To be RPed well you would have to be drunk the entire time you were online and do emotes about vomiting and such. If you run out of alcohol you could do alcohol withdrawal emotes and pull hp items off and back on to cause injury to your character, or like get creative idk. Dwarves probably suffer fall damage more than any other race.

[Ripqozko]

dorfs get the barrel roll which puts them above elves regardless of stats tbh

cant wear PD robe, clearly inferior

[Trelaboon]

i just now cap sta on my pally and my gears better, if you arent going full bis, sta is the way

I have 25 stamina to wiggle with, but I did put the 20 into Stamina at creation. I’m not maxed without Riotous Health, but with it? No problem.

[Ripqozko]

I have 25 stamina to wiggle with, but I did put the 20 into Stamina at creation. I’m not maxed without Riotous Health, but with it? No problem.

I barely am with it, and I put into stam as human

[Trelaboon]

I barely am with it, and I put into stam as human

I will say that’s wearing a Rocksmasher. If I’m wearing literally any of my other weapon options (I don’t have Tunare or Vulak weapon) I BARELY cap stamina buffed. Literally down to the point.

[Ripqozko]

https://i.ibb.co/7XPF4tW/Screenshot-270.png (https://ibb.co/2yxBN3t)

209 stam, and i have pretty good gear. im only over by 4. of course i could use pots and such for the 50 stackable but thats buff slots.

[Snaggles]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Vojun

70 base sta with Rocksmasher. Not the best gear but not all EC tunnel either. Im like 3str from capping with Yaulp4 and Focus. 15 str 5 agil as I recall.

[Gustoo]

I’d probably do a dwarf with 5 agility and the rest wisdom but maybe I’m an asshole

I’m never gunna get the robe, main reason.

Still toughest call in the game

[sajbert]

IÂ’d probably do a dwarf with 5 agility and the rest wisdom but maybe IÂ’m an asshole

IÂ’m never gunna get the robe, main reason.

Still toughest call in the game
I don't quite understand the 5 agi thing. It's easy to find +5 agi somewhere in gear even during early to mid classic.

As for going wisdom, yeah, I can understand that. I was looking at some BIS-setups and even with a High Elf it's difficult to do unless you put points into wisdom or go for Robe of Azure Sky. I think it's unquestionably the most relevant stat for paladins with the possible exception of charisma.

If you go Dwarf without dumping all points into charisma I think you're sentencing your paladin to a life without lull-splitting and that's a shame, the toolkit is very thin without lulls. 20 points into charisma appears to equate around -5% chance of critical resist in the 100-200 cha range. That I feel is significant, even with the help of Luminary Two Handed Sword and Kobold Jester's Crown and a bit of charisma gear you won't get anywhere close to 200 charisma on a Dwarf, especially with no points in charisma upon creation.

As for the robe. Honestly, outside of fashion, Chestplate of Vindication seems like the better pick. Aura of Battle. 15hp and 27 AC > 20 wisdom and 100mana. Vindi BP is also significantly easier to get, you gotta wait until Velious though.

If a new server hit today I still wouldn't know which race to go should I roll paladin. I get a good feeling when I look at dwarves and maybe that's the right pick for that reason.

[Snaggles]

If you go Dwarf without dumping all points into charisma I think you're sentencing your paladin to a life without lull-splitting and that's a shame, the toolkit is very thin without lulls.

Lulls are the backbone of the class now? :D

They still work with only 55 CHA; just way less reliably. A mild bump makes it completely tolerable. With overseer signets, jester crown, luminary sword, and crude stein that’s at least 90 extra CHA. That puts a dwarf in the mid 100’s. With a 400p dragon mask and a Loddy shield you can add 24 more points. That’s like 170 with a dwarf.

I carry around a 220ish kit, mainly because I’m a tad obsessive and keep telling myself “what if you need it?” I’ve never really “needed it” and only have used it like twice in 5 years, and never while soloing to 60.

I get the feverous napkin math but this “lull end game” feels like an inside joke that went too far.

[Ennewi]

Lodi shield is another one of those expensive, hard to replace items that also happens to lower agi. Djarn's ring will more than make up for it, but not for fungi or both. It's not like there aren't other items with agi, especially at endgame, it's just annoying having to account for it all until then. But yeah, cha is conveniently cheap and there are other items on top of ones previously mentioned to bump the numbers up higher. Other than jaspers for BP clicks, paladins don't tend to need a lot of bag space.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Froststone_Stein

With crude, can dual wield steins, having the side benefit of cold resists in case lull crit fails versus a caster.

[Bockscar]

I don't quite understand the 5 agi thing. It's easy to find +5 agi somewhere in gear even during early to mid classic.

It actually isn't. You can get agility if you choose to wear a shitty item, but in all likelihood, your BIS pre-Velious contains no item that gives agility. Or, if it does, it's some obscure shit like (in the case of paladins) planar legs. And then you get to Kunark where your class set has no stats at all except for the chest and legs which most players won't have access to. It's not until you get to Velious endgame content that you can just count on having agility on items that you wanted to wear anyway. Up until then, it takes either gear that most players won't have (e.g. Kunark set bp/legs) or items that you wouldn't normally wear but need to do so in order to get the agility. This is why you raise it to 75 just so you don't have to wear a fucking Serpentine Bracer like a moron.

[sajbert]

It actually isn't. You can get agility if you choose to wear a shitty item, but in all likelihood, your BIS pre-Velious contains no item that gives agility. Or, if it does, it's some obscure shit like (in the case of paladins) planar legs. And then you get to Kunark where your class set has no stats at all except for the chest and legs which most players won't have access to. It's not until you get to Velious endgame content that you can just count on having agility on items that you wanted to wear anyway. Up until then, it takes either gear that most players won't have (e.g. Kunark set bp/legs) or items that you wouldn't normally wear but need to do so in order to get the agility. This is why you raise it to 75 just so you don't have to wear a fucking Serpentine Bracer like a moron.

But since you’d be dumping attribute points into it you’d basically have a serpentine bracer (or djarn’s) that gives you 5 sta or wis or cha - whatever you spent points on. And sure there’s fungi penalty (and someone mentioned lodi shield?) but there are valorium greaves, hiero cloak, spiked seahorse hide belt, deepwater greaves, shroud of veeshan, 6-necks. Sure you may be stuck with the one suboptimal piece for a while like a forest loop but that’s no biggie to me in the grand scheme of things. For the same reason I wouldn’t slap 20 starting str on a rogue and no one would bat an eyebrow at that.

I still say 5 agi on ogre, erudite and dwarf is a trap.

[Bockscar]

I mean, I was literally talking specifically about 5 agi on ogre/erudite/dwarf. I wasn't advocating for raising agility on the races that already start with 75+. The stat is pure garbage if you have 75 already.

It's a very small price to pay, dumping five points into it in order to never have to worry about it at all. Otherwise you have to wear some agility item at all times, and up until Velious, you are at best paying out the nose for something like a Necklace of Superiority, just to not wear something truly awful for the sheer sake of getting those agility points. That's why the races that don't start with 75+ agi need to dump five points into it.

[Crede]

But since you’d be dumping attribute points into it you’d basically have a serpentine bracer (or djarn’s) that gives you 5 sta or wis or cha - whatever you spent points on. And sure there’s fungi penalty (and someone mentioned lodi shield?) but there are valorium greaves, hiero cloak, spiked seahorse hide belt, deepwater greaves, shroud of veeshan, 6-necks. Sure you may be stuck with the one suboptimal piece for a while like a forest loop but that’s no biggie to me in the grand scheme of things. For the same reason I wouldn’t slap 20 starting str on a rogue and no one would bat an eyebrow at that.

I still say 5 agi on ogre, erudite and dwarf is a trap.

Agreed. Velious items are loaded with agility. Silly way to throw away 5 creation points.

[Pint]

https://i.imgur.com/Z5Lgs1B.png

i quit raiding years ago and will probably never finish this toon. i went sta/agi, if i could do it again id go wis/agi.

[Snaggles]

As a casual raider for now I’m wearing a djarns. The AC drop was milder than I assumed and I just wanted the raw hps.

[Gustoo]

The reason wasting 5 points on agility is required is because I’m thinking from a vanilla pvp perspective, where you may or may not have any stat adding items for a long time.

Same with skipping charisma. You can lull with fails and be passable. It’s a sacrifice but you get 5 mr and way better melee stats during a time where stats are scarce and trolls are going to be pummeling you.

A dwarf with all points to charisma and 5 to agi might be a good long term blended build, going full wisdom is just saying whatever I’m gunna ignore the weak lulls in exchange for better in every other category

[Gustoo]

It would be easier to be a high elf from day one but most of their advantage goes away if you put points into melee stats and you still end up with bad melee stats. If you’re making a character during velious era the choice makes
More sense.

[sajbert]

The reason wasting 5 points on agility is required is because I’m thinking from a vanilla pvp perspective, where you may or may not have any stat adding items for a long time.

Same with skipping charisma. You can lull with fails and be passable. It’s a sacrifice but you get 5 mr and way better melee stats during a time where stats are scarce and trolls are going to be pummeling you.

A dwarf with all points to charisma and 5 to agi might be a good long term blended build, going full wisdom is just saying whatever I’m gunna ignore the weak lulls in exchange for better in every other category

From a PvP perspective lulls probably won't be your priority and instead wisdom will be. I doubt it'll take long to get something like a serpentine bracer, which effectively would be a 4 agi 5 wisdom 3 dex bracer, not bad!

[sajbert]

It would be easier to be a high elf from day one but most of their advantage goes away if you put points into melee stats and you still end up with bad melee stats. If you’re making a character during velious era the choice makes
More sense.
Then again given how shit paladin melee is in early Classic you're probably gonna get better bang for the buck going wisdom. And if you go wisdom with a High Elf you are gonna have enough charisma to sorta make lulling work eventually anyway with some swap-in items. Unlike a dwarf without charisma which can basically give up on that prospect.

[Snaggles]

This game has cycled on and off for over 20 years. Most people never put points into wisdom and I expect those (especially on live) who put any points into CHA are in the single percentage digits.

If you believe the OG dev’s intent that a knight is 80% melee/20% putting points into str or sta make more sense. If you plan to cap these stats easily with vulak and doz gear sure go for wis.

If you can afford a semi-functional lull kit (maybe 3k) then go for cha. Just know the difference between a dwarf with 170 and 190 cha isn’t noticeable in Lower Guk and The Hole. Frankly as much as it pains me I’d rather see someone put points into Dex because at least it’s a combat stat and that’s primarily what a paladin is supposed to do. Jeldorin, epic, primal, dawncall, craslith, all good procs.

[Bockscar]

From a PvP perspective lulls probably won't be your priority and instead wisdom will be. I doubt it'll take long to get something like a serpentine bracer, which effectively would be a 4 agi 5 wisdom 3 dex bracer, not bad!

It's still a 1 AC bracer on a tank class. It sucks.

[Crede]

This game has cycled on and off for over 20 years. Most people never put points into wisdom and I expect those (especially on live) who put any points into CHA are in the single percentage digits.

If you believe the OG dev’s intent that a knight is 80% melee/20% putting points into str or sta make more sense. If you plan to cap these stats easily with vulak and doz gear sure go for wis.

If you can afford a semi-functional lull kit (maybe 3k) then go for cha. Just know the difference between a dwarf with 170 and 190 cha isn’t noticeable in Lower Guk and The Hole. Frankly as much as it pains me I’d rather see someone put points into Dex because at least it’s a combat stat and that’s primarily what a paladin is supposed to do. Jeldorin, epic, primal, dawncall, craslith, all good procs.

I'd rather have the CHA for more dangerous lulls like HS, seb, velks, etc. I went wis on my pally and found basically zero use for it. if I need to get off one extra hot with that extra wis then I prob lost the fight anyway. But ymmv.

[sajbert]

It's still a 1 AC bracer on a tank class. It sucks.
Tell me more how you will ever notice a loss of 4 ac.

[magnetaress]

High elf. Max wisdom.


Or human. Max dex.

[Jimjam]

Tell me more how you will ever notice a loss of 4 ac.

Furthermore they mentioned pvp server, where iirc dex/agi seems to be more helpful?

[Snaggles]

I'd rather have the CHA for more dangerous lulls like HS, seb, velks, etc. I went wis on my pally and found basically zero use for it. if I need to get off one extra hot with that extra wis then I prob lost the fight anyway. But ymmv.

Crawling HS as the puller I guess would be dodgy with low CHA and no CC. That said, eventually a crit fail will happen. Murphy’s Law and all that.

I don’t go full out with my CHA set. Earrings, bracers, neck (I use a +6). Ennewi mentioned a ToFS stein for 10 more and I don’t use a loddy shield. There are plenty of ways to get that stay very high no matter what race you pick.

If you have a specific need sure, do whatever you want. I just think nudging new players down this road isn’t necessarily. I sure never needed 200+ CHA and found the road to 60 remarkably easy.

[agalig2]

Dwarf Paladin of Brell whose god personally appeared to him in a vision and told him that alcohol must be abandoned, like that one guy in Thurgadin, except with a flaming sword.

Also barrel roll.

[pink grapefruit]

Furthermore they mentioned pvp server, where iirc dex/agi seems to be more helpful?

What??

please explain!

[Insaiyan]

https://i.imgur.com/Z5Lgs1B.png

i quit raiding years ago and will probably never finish this toon. i went sta/agi, if i could do it again id go wis/agi.

69 charisma. Nice.

[Pint]

69 charisma. Nice.

Thanks for noticing ; )

[sajbert]

What??

please explain!

agi and dex is supposedly impactful when calculating melee damage.

[magnetaress]

You shouldn't be crawling anywhere that is remotely dangerous solo. Take someone with you. They will appreciate your extra wisdom.

The upside of dex is every class has a nice proc weapon and 20 extra dex can make a significant difference on those dice.

I used to be a huge advocate for cha. Really 120 is sufficient and you'll accidentally get that. And if you get a crit resist your going to gate pot or root camp anyway. Or just rez urself.

Most pulls in the game can be accomplished with root and a body to dish out enough dps so all you have to do is root and spot heal. Big charisma is nice. It's a bonus. At 200 you'll get lucky much more with crit fails. It's not game changing tho.

[magnetaress]

agi and dex is supposedly impactful when calculating melee damage.

Agi is a good defense vs ogre + bow + weighted axe aswell.

[Cen]

I actually always put humans above dwarves because I like the fun robe option, but here its just natures defender vs stats and cool roll if male, I think dwarves have a cooler paladin flavor. Their walk cycle isnt my favorite but its not a bad one! Their hats and armor. I kind of like too across the board. Honestly paladin race is pure flavor

[Raj]

Do a Barrel roll, fox! :cool:

[Raj]

Do you want to look like a Half Elf or a Dwarf? Both are fine options.

As for the 5 AGI, there's an AC penalty if you're under 75 AGI. Dwarves start with 70. You can put 5 starting points into AGI, or you can just get 5 AGI from your gear somewhere.

Personally I'd do Half Elf, but the barrel roll is pretty fucking cool, ngl.

The Real challenge/question should be Robequest (Erudites, Humans ,High Elves, "Dark Elf") Vs Barrel Roll: Discuss the aesthetic merits of each!

The best paladin race is Dwarf/"Dark Elf" for the best of both worlds - Prove me wrong! =)
Erudites get a close 2nd, their fashion is highly underrated IMO

Id love to see some screenshots of pimped out Erudite and Dorf pallies that also are "Dark Elves" at times if anybody has them of themselves or friends/guildies etc.

"Dark Elf" dwarf gets guardian robe only though afaik for Robequest

[Gustoo]

It really sucks to play human or erudite now with the darkness. There are almost no infravision or ultravision items that you actually want to wear. I guess erudites have that shield, but whatever. It sucks ass all the way up until you get some Velious endgame item that just happens to have it as a worn effect, and there aren't even that many of those. Prior to that, you pretty much have to wear some really bad item just so you can see. It's horrible when you don't have it built into an item that you would wear anyway regardless. And no, items with the glow effect are not the same and don't do enough.

Agreed. It’s good that the act of being a human erudite and barbarian is really punished now, which is similar to the way it was on live.

But it’s not correct because the way the dynamic lighting works is totally effed up and not classic at all. The level of total unplayability at night time without some vision enhancement item or spell is a lot worse than live. On live darkness was meaningfully dark for all races, and really hindering to human and erudite and barb. The dark elf vision was a meaningful racial trait.

The downsides of dynamic lighting don’t warrant the change. Might as well just make erudites humans and barbs not playable and let everyone else have a game that works right

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just get a https://wiki.project1999.com/Eyepatch_of_the_Shadows to go with the eyepatch you put on your human. It's got decent enough stats for a melee. Once you get a better mask, you can just swap to the eyepatch when you are running around, and swap it out in combat.

[Stroboo]

Human would have been my first choice as Paladin and i would have gone full cha then any leftover into str, but i already have 2 humans, druid and mage, so i went Half-Elf and have loved it(level 51 so far). I value raw stamina and wis/int much lower when leveling then most do though, i'm not often full health or mana so what's the difference? and i have no intention of ever raiding on a paladin so those stats didn't seem as important.

if i was to raid i think would go Half Elf and maybe go full int then sta, str/sta seem much easier raw stats to max with str/sta/foc + avatar for sure

[Kirdan]

Dwarf is the worst choice for every class they can be. Half Elf isn't much better, but it is better.

[sajbert]

Dwarf is the worst choice for every class they can be. Half Elf isn't much better, but it is better.

Dwarf rogue is arguably BIS with stats and resists. Certainly not worst warrior either.

[Ennewi]

Dwarves have barrel roll, ale necklace clicky, and the butcherblock hammer. You can't please all of the nerds all of the time.

[Poltamar]

As a 53 half-elf Paladin I thought that I would be able to zoom through and get Nature's Defender and be tricked out, ended up finishing my EPIC first and now wondering why I took the hit to wisdom. Dwarf is better statistically.

[sajbert]

As a 53 half-elf Paladin I thought that I would be able to zoom through and get Nature's Defender and be tricked out, ended up finishing my EPIC first and now wondering why I took the hit to wisdom. Dwarf is better statistically.

If anything human has +5 str, +5 sta and +15 wis, half elf has +15 agi (ZzZzz) and +10 dex (cute I guess?).

Not being night blind as shit is a nice touch for the half-elf but eventually doesn't matter.

I still think human (swiss army knife), dwarf (melee oriented) and high elf (spell oriented) are the only sensible options outside of fashion picks. I also find that it's easier in current era for a high elf to compensate lack of str and sta than it is for a dwarf to compensate lack of wisdom and cha. On a fresh server it may be more advantageous to roll dwarf since going HE paladin with no points in str and hybrid xp penalty would be pretty effin' miserable.

[Snaggles]

The most regrettable racial picks are due to not being able to access certain items, even if more mid-range. It’s still of no material difference being able to do the same job as another.

Natures defender (Tunare pallies)
Shield of stalwart seas (eru)
Imbued granite Spaulders (no shorties)
Frostreaver (human and dwarf)

These are mid-range items at best. I’d play what you like the look of. If you take joy out of min-maxing maybe pick on that basis however your napkin math shows to be the “best”.

[7thGate]

There's also Innoruuk loot, since he's racist. For a lot of the races his loot is pointless or replaceable with mid-tier stuff, but Half Elf Innoruuk loot is a +20 MR face mask.

[Jimjam]

There's also Innoruuk loot, since he's racist. For a lot of the races his loot is pointless or replaceable with mid-tier stuff, but Half Elf Innoruuk loot is a +20 MR face mask.

Ah man you made me miss red.

[Crede]

As a 53 half-elf Paladin I thought that I would be able to zoom through and get Nature's Defender and be tricked out, ended up finishing my EPIC first and now wondering why I took the hit to wisdom. Dwarf is better statistically.

ND is overrated and should not be the sole reason you pick a race IMO, but I’m glad you got epic! It’s not that hard, just has annoying parts to it. Half elves are about fashion. They do look cool in plate still so I don’t think you make a mistake. And having high CHA is good for end game as well as that sweet inny mask that was mentioned.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ND is overrated and should not be the sole reason you pick a race IMO, but I’m glad you got epic! It’s not that hard, just has annoying parts to it. Half elves are about fashion. They do look cool in plate still so I don’t think you make a mistake. And having high CHA is good for end game as well as that sweet inny mask that was mentioned.

Agreed. I wouldn't pick a race solely based on Nature's Defender. Fiery Defender has the superior ratio, proc, and overall stats, so you would replace Nature's Defender with that anyway.

[fortior]

If you can stand not being all about minmaxing, I would go fashion over anything else. I have an iksar shaman despite iksar being the worst shaman race, and I don't regret it one bit. If you stick with a character, raid gear will shore up most differences just fine

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you can stand not being all about minmaxing, I would go fashion over anything else. I have an iksar shaman despite iksar being the worst shaman race, and I don't regret it one bit. If you stick with a character, raid gear will shore up most differences just fine

Agreed. Nobody is forcing anybody to play what they don't want to. Give people the objective facts as to what is better or worse, and let them decide for themselves.

[fortior]

I suppose. I hope listing differences doesn't sway new players intimidated by the reputation eq has for being difficult into playing something based on statistical advantages instead of real preference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I suppose. I hope listing differences doesn't sway new players intimidated by the reputation eq has for being difficult into playing something based on statistical advantages instead of real preference.

I agree there is a possibility of intimidating someone into making a choice they wouldn't otherwise make.

I tend to prefer to give people the truth of the matter, and trust them to make the right decision for how they want to play.

If you give people half truths to try and guide them in a direction that you think will be best for them, that can also cause people to be led astray.

As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That I why I prefer the facts. At least they cannot come back and claim you lied to them.

[fortior]

That's true. It might help people who feel a lot of regret if they make irreversible decisions which aren't purely upside/optimal, like the guy I know who rerolled when he took 1 faction hit in SG.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's true. It might help people who feel a lot of regret if they make irreversible decisions which aren't purely upside/optimal, like the guy I know who rerolled when he took 1 faction hit in SG.

Exactly. That is my thought as well. Some people do enjoy min/maxing, so the objective facts should be out there for those people.

In an ideal world, the factual information should also have the preface of: "You won't screw yourself over if you pick race X over race Y. There is no content that will become unavailable, you will simply have a slightly tougher time with some aspects of the game".

That would be the best of both worlds, in my estimation.

[Crede]

If you can stand not being all about minmaxing, I would go fashion over anything else. I have an iksar shaman despite iksar being the worst shaman race, and I don't regret it one bit. If you stick with a character, raid gear will shore up most differences just fine

I would not say at all that Iksars are the worst shaman race. They are the best raiding shaman and probably best fashion due to robes. Really the only downside is that they can’t click jbb. Jbb is by no means a min max item, but it’s a fun toy that Is understandable to not want to miss out on. You could actually make an argument that they are the best shaman race. I do give ogres a solo edge at 60 because of FSI but otherwise I like Iksars a lot.

But this is a complex topic so I’m not trying to start a debate just my opinion on them lol

[Ripqozko]

I would not say at all that Iksars are the worst shaman race. They are the best raiding shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman. However, building a Shaman specifically for raiding is unecessary, and generally a waste. It's better to build them for solo/group scenarios, as they will do just fine in raids regardless of race. It is rare that someone builds a Shaman only to raid.

But yes, this is off topic, no need to go further.

[Crede]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman. However, building a Shaman specifically for raiding is unecessary, and generally a waste. It's better to build them for solo/group scenarios, as they will do just fine in raids regardless of race. It is rare that someone builds a Shaman only to raid.

But yes, this is off topic, no need to go further.

Iksars will do just fine in solo/group scenarios as well. The best shaman solo artist was a barbarian.

[Ripqozko]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Iksars will do just fine in solo/group scenarios as well. The best shaman solo artist was a barbarian.

I never said Iksars won't do well:) But solo/group scenarios will benefit more from the racial bonuses a Shaman can get.

Just because a player with high skill plays a barbarian, it doesn't mean the racial bonuses wouldn't help them out even more.

Shamans are a very good solo class, which is why people like making Shamans. They get a class that can solo, group, and raid equally well. It's similar to why people play Enchanters. That is why focusing on raiding isn't as beneficial for most players when picking Shaman race.

Again, this is off topic.

[Ripqozko]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ripqozko, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwowi%27s_Shaman_Race_Guide

I said Iksars are the best raiding shaman in my guide, which I wrote three years ago. As I stated in the same guide, focusing on raiding is generally not the way to go on a Shaman. This is because most people who play P99 don't have the time/desire to make a level 60 of each class. Shamans are similar to Enchanters in flexibility of play. If you get one to 60, you have a character that can solo, group, and raid equally well. This is why it is the better choice to focus on solo/group situations when picking Shaman race, instead of raiding. I only know of a few Shamans who exclusively raid. It is a rare breed.

Again, this is off topic. Please stop your trolling attempts. You keep failing, and they get worse and worse as you try new "strategies".

[Crede]

Ripqozko, I am not sure what you are trying to say.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwowi%27s_Shaman_Race_Guide

I said Iksars are the best raiding shaman in my guide, which I wrote three years ago. As I stated in the same guide, focusing on raiding is generally not the way to go on a Shaman. This is because most people who play P99 don't have the time/desire to make a level 60 of each class. Shamans are similar to Enchanters in flexibility of play. If you get one to 60, you have a character that can solo, group, and raid equally well. This is why it is the better choice to focus on solo/group situations when picking Shaman race, instead of raiding. I only know of a few Shamans who exclusively raid. It is a rare breed.

Again, this is off topic. Please stop your trolling attempts. You keep failing, and they get worse and worse as you try new "strategies".

Iksars racial benefits extends into solo/grouping as well. So not sure what point you’re trying to make. They are a perfectly acceptable shaman race and quite powerful with the only main drawback being no JBB which is not an item you need. Something like the epic is far more important.

[Toxigen]

you spergs are talking about shaman races in a paladin thread

hope this helps

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Iksars racial benefits extends into solo/grouping as well. So not sure what point you’re trying to make. They are a perfectly acceptable shaman race and quite powerful with the only main drawback being no JBB which is not an item you need. Something like the epic is far more important.

Please stop posting off topic. You keep saying "Iksars can play the game just fine", and everybody agrees with you, including myself. Why do you keep stating the obvious in a thread not related to Shamans?

Iksars are the worst race from a min/max perspective objectively speaking. That doesn't mean you are going to have major problems if you are an Iksar Shaman. I am not sure why people think showing a race is the worst min/max race is equal to saying a race is bad. In P99, the worst min/max races are still fine to play. Some people like min/maxing, which is why people want to know which races are better or worse from that perspective.

To Ripqozko, thank you for continuously failing at your troll attempts. You are quoting something I said three years ago, and still agree with. Iksars are the best raid Shaman. If you want to min/max, focusing on raiding when it comes to your race choice is not the way to go for Shamans specifically. Barbarians are the best guild bot race, since they require less XP to get to 60. That doesn't mean they are the best min/max choice for Shamans, because most people don't make guild bot Shamans. Most people also don't make Shamans with the specific intent of only raiding and never solo/grouping.

[Ripqozko]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[Crede]

Please stop posting off topic. You keep saying "Iksars can play the game just fine", and everybody agrees with you, including myself. Why do you keep stating the obvious in a thread not related to Shamans?

Iksars are the worst race from a min/max perspective objectively speaking. That doesn't mean you are going to have major problems if you are an Iksar Shaman. I am not sure why people think showing a race is the worst min/max race is equal to saying a race is bad. In P99, the worst min/max races are still fine to play. Some people like min/maxing, which is why people want to know which races are better or worse from that perspective.

Nothing about Iksars shamans makes them the objectively worst shaman race. They do not get JBB. That is not an end game shaman item. It’s just a fun toy.

I really wish you would stop spreading false information, and then I might stop posting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nothing about Iksars shamans makes them the objectively worst shaman race. They do not get JBB. That is not an end game shaman item. It’s just a fun toy.

I really wish you would stop spreading false information, and then I might stop posting.

I am not spreading false information. I have way more evidence to support my position as to which races are min/max for Shamans. I have math and video evidence. You need to provide more than "You are wrong" as an argument.

People can read the guide in my signature if they want to see how I came to my conclusions. Nobody can see how you came to your conclusions. You are simply posting your opinion without basis.

This isn't a Shaman thread, and you haven't show anything to back up your claims. You are also wrong about JBB. I still use mine often at level 60. If you choose not to use JBB at 60, you are simply not being as efficient as you could be.

Please stop posting incorrect information about Shamans in a Paladin thread.

[Ripqozko]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[Toxigen]

the lizard peepul walk among us

[Crede]

I am not spreading false information. I have way more evidence to support my position as to which races are min/max for Shamans. I have math and video evidence. You need to provide more than "You are wrong" as an argument.

People can read the guide in my signature if they want to see how I came to my conclusions. Nobody can see how you came to your conclusions. You are simply posting your opinion without basis.

This isn't a Shaman thread, and you haven't show anything to back up your claims. You are also wrong about JBB. I still use mine often at level 60. If you choose not to use JBB at 60, you are simply not being as efficient as you could be.

Please stop posting incorrect information about Shamans in a Paladin thread.

Saying things like “iksars are objectively the worst min/max shaman race” is not doing any service to the P99 community.

They make the best monks, the best necros, and arguably the best shamans. Your guide is simply a summation of your opinions about different scenarios.

Please stop spreading false information, the community is better off without it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Saying things like “iksars are objectively the worst min/max shaman race” is not doing any service to the P99 community.

They make the best monks, the best necros, and arguably the best shamans. Your guide is simply a summation of your opinions about different scenarios.

Please stop spreading false information, the community is better off without it.

I am doing a service to the P99 community for those who want the objective facts about Shamans. You want to suppress those objective facts for unknown reasons.

Iksars are the best Necros and Monks because the "no plate" restriction doesn't affect them at all. Necros and Monks also cannot be Trolls/Ogres to begin with. Allowing Monks and Necromancers to be Iksar is akin to allowing them to be Trolls. Everybody would be a Troll Necromancer or Troll Monk if they could.

Warriors, Shadowknights, and Shamans are all plate classes, and Iksar is not the min/max choice for any of those classes. This is because all of those classes can also be Trolls/Ogres.

People can check the guide in my signature for objective information about Shaman races. You cannot simply claim everything is an opinion, to try and make your opinion appear equal. I can back up my points with math and videos. You can't.

Please stop posting false information about Shamans in a Paladin thread.

[Ripqozko]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

Direct Quote

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Direct Quote

It's in the guide which I wrote three years ago too! What is your point? You are missing the caveat that min/maxing for raiding is not the optimal choice for the majority of Shaman players.

This is your worst troll yet, because I can prove I said this three years ago.

Every race can be considered the best at something. My guide shows the scenario in which each race can be considered the best for a Shaman. Min/maxing is figuring out which race gives you the most benefit over the most hours of play for the majority of players at max level. This includes the knowledge that you will always sacrifice something when picking one race over another. If you want to be better in a very specific scenario, you don't have to pick the min/max choice. It is rare that people build a Shaman to exclusively raid, which is why it isn't the min/max choice.

Please stop posting off topic nonsense.

[Ripqozko]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[Crede]

I am doing a service to the P99 community for those who want the objective facts about Shamans. You want to suppress those objective facts for unknown reasons.

Iksars are the best Necros and Monks because the "no plate" restriction doesn't affect them at all. Necros and Monks also cannot be Trolls/Ogres to begin with. Allowing Monks and Necromancers to be Iksar is akin to allowing them to be Trolls. Everybody would be a Troll Necromancer or Troll Monk if they could.

Warriors, Shadowknights, and Shamans are all plate classes, and Iksar is not the min/max choice for any of those classes. This is because all of those classes can also be Trolls/Ogres.

People can check the guide in my signature for objective information about Shaman races. You cannot simply claim everything is an opinion, to try and make your opinion appear equal. I can back up my points with math and videos. You can't.

Please stop posting false information about Shamans in a Paladin thread.

Is anyone else reading this.

Bringing troll necros and troll monks into the equation.

Velious has plate for all classes, you’re not making any valid points here. Just creating more confusion talking about “troll monks” and plate, 2 things which don’t exist for a monk.

The only troll here is the troll you have decided to be today.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is anyone else reading this.

Bringing troll necros and troll monks into the equation.

Velious has plate for all classes, you’re not making any valid points here. Just creating more confusion talking about “troll monks” and plate, 2 things which don’t exist for a monk.

The only troll here is the troll you have decided to be today.

I am using Trolls as an example, because they also have racial regeneration. I didn't say that Trolls could be Necromancers or Monks. There is nothing confusing about what I said.

Don't confuse players by claiming Iksar Monks and Iksar Necromancers are missing any significant plate items. You said:


Velious has plate for all classes


and


and plate, 2 things which don’t exist for a monk


You are contradicting yourself in the same post by saying Velious has plate for all classes, and saying monks have no plate.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. You are simply posting off topic nonsense, again.

[Ripqozko]

This is the new kittens, Join DSM today

[Crede]

I am using Trolls as an example, because they also have racial regeneration. I didn't say that Trolls could be Necromancers or Monks. There is nothing confusing about what I said.

Don't confuse players by claiming Iksar Monks and Iksar Necromancers are missing any significant plate items. You said:



and



You are contradicting yourself in the same post by saying Velious has plate for all classes, and saying monks have no plate.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. You are simply posting off topic nonsense, again.

I literally cannot keep up with your stealth edits. You must have did it 3 or 4 times already in this one post alone.

Again, please stop. You’re just confusing people even more. And stop constantly editing stuff. It really kills whatever credibility you might have left, which is already little to none.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I literally cannot keep up with your stealth edits. You must have did it 3 or 4 times already in this one post alone.

Again, please stop. You’re just confusing people even more. And stop constantly editing stuff. It really kills whatever credibility you might have left, which is already little to none.

I edit my posts because I want to be as clear as possible, since posters like yourself take every opportunity to misread what I said. If you weren't purposely being hostile and twisting peoples words, I wouldn't need to.

You can't even write a sensible sentence, because you claim that Velious has plate for all classes, while simultaneously saying Monks have no plate.

Again, please stop posting incorrect information about Shamans (and now plate armor) in a thread about Paladins.

[Crede]

I edit my posts because I want to be as clear as possible, since posters like yourself take every opportunity to misread what I said. If you weren't purposely being hostile and twisting peoples words, I wouldn't need to.

You can't even write a sensible sentence, because you claim that Velious has plate for all classes, while simultaneously saying Monks have no plate.

Again, please stop posting incorrect information about Shamans and plate armor in a thread about Paladins.

I meant velious has plate for all races. But unlike you, I don’t edit my posts a million times. People understood what it meant.

You on the other hand, continue to spread lies saying Iksars are objectively the worst min/max race. This simply is not true.

I can no longer debate with a lie spreader and stealth editor. Nobody knows what your intentions are when you change the contents of your post every 2 minutes.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I meant velious has plate for all races. But unlike you, I don’t edit my posts a million times. People understood what it meant.

You on the other hand, continue to spread lies saying Iksars are objectively the worst min/max race. This simply is not true.

I can no longer debate with a lie spreader and stealth editor. Nobody knows what your intentions are when you change the contents of your post every 2 minutes.

People may NOT have understood what it meant, which is why you should edit that. You make a lot of assumptions, which isn't a good idea. Your opinion on post editing is irrelevant to the fact that you said something incorrect, and seemingly refuse to correct it.

People can read the guide in my signature and come to their own conclusions about Shaman races. I have way more evidence to support Iksars are objectively the worst min/max race than you do.

Your arrogant assumption that your opinions are equal to evidence simply because you say so is comical. If you think I am incorrect, bring some evidence that goes beyond "I am right, you are wrong".

Please stop posting off-topic, incorrect information about Shamans in a Paladin thread.

[Ripqozko]

Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for continuing to agree with me Ripqozko. I am not sure how agreeing with me is a good troll tactic, but you do you!

This is off-topic, so please stop posting your emphatic agreement.

[Ripqozko]

Thank you for continuing to agree with me Ripqozko. I am not sure how agreeing with me is a good troll tactic, but you do you!

This is off-topic, so please stop posting your emphatic agreement.


Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes Ripqozko, you are agreeing with my guide, https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwowi%27s_Shaman_Race_Guide - which I posted three years ago.

I know you seem overly excited to finally discover it, but this is not related to Paladins. Please stop posting your emphatic agreement here, even though I do appreciate it.

Unfortunately your goal of trolling isn't working. I won't responding to you again on this matter. Please stop spamming your agreement with my guide.

sorry you dont got best raiding shaman hope this helps

I've got the best min/max Shaman race, which is what I wanted for my own character. Sorry that didn't help. Thank you for agreeing with my guide though! You should also stop posting off-topic, since this is a Paladin thread.

[Toxigen]

sorry you dont got best raiding shaman hope this helps

[Ripqozko]

Yes Ripqozko, you are agreeing with my guide, https://wiki.project1999.com/Shamwowi%27s_Shaman_Race_Guide - which I posted three years ago.

I know you seem overly excited to finally discover it, but this is not related to Paladins. Please stop posting your emphatic agreement here, even though I do appreciate it.

Unfortunately your goal of trolling isn't working.



I've got the best min/max Shaman race, which is what I wanted for my own character. Sorry that didn't help. Thank you for agreeing with my guide though! You should also stop posting off-topic, since this is a Paladin thread.



Iksars are the best raiding shaman.

[Infectious]

I am doing a service to the P99 community for those who want the objective facts about Shamans. You want to suppress those objective facts for unknown reasons.

Iksars are the best Necros and Monks because the "no plate" restriction doesn't affect them at all. Necros and Monks also cannot be Trolls/Ogres to begin with. Allowing Monks and Necromancers to be Iksar is akin to allowing them to be Trolls. Everybody would be a Troll Necromancer or Troll Monk if they could.

Warriors, Shadowknights, and Shamans are all plate classes, and Iksar is not the min/max choice for any of those classes. This is because all of those classes can also be Trolls/Ogres.

People can check the guide in my signature for objective information about Shaman races. You cannot simply claim everything is an opinion, to try and make your opinion appear equal. I can back up my points with math and videos. You can't.

Please stop posting false information about Shamans in a Paladin thread.

Thank you for your service, vets are always being disrespected in today's society.

[Jimjam]

So half elf paladin. Whats the second half? Judging by the maiden imprisoned in a merchant’s bedrooms among Cabilis I would suggest iksar.

[Duik]

Dwarf. Trolls and Iksar CANNOT be Paladin. Barrel roll +200 dmg on my face when I laugh.
OMFG you twats waffling on about Shaman. No one cares. They are --edit-- objectively in a Paladin racial thread--edit-- THE WORST CLASS FOR ANYTHING. Waa, i want a JBB for my Paladin.
Nice work Duik. Back OT. Phew.

[Infectious]

So half elf paladin. Whats the second half? Judging by the maiden imprisoned in a merchant’s bedrooms among Cabilis I would suggest iksar.

Half elf paladin, go wis and sta

[Varren]

its shamen holmeses

[ya.dingus]

Races with high charisma and decent wisdom are the go to for bis race choices. All other stats get maxed, and 200 is a softcap.

Races that overcap beyond soft 200 are a trap because there are no compensating armor options to pick from to help adjust for your over stating when it comes to bis. Youre basically throwing stat points away because you dont see the return on them.

[Troxx]

I went half elf and tunare for that pretty mini-epic sword. It was a blast but ultimately I bagged it for a ToV Greatspear of Dawn rot.

No regrets.

[Lune]

Who knew my 12 year old self built my paladin to a meta back in 2000 when i dumped a bunch of my points into CHA

[Snaggles]

Races with high charisma and decent wisdom are the go to for bis race choices. All other stats get maxed, and 200 is a softcap.

Races that overcap beyond soft 200 are a trap because there are no compensating armor options to pick from to help adjust for your over stating when it comes to bis. Youre basically throwing stat points away because you dont see the return on them.

Outside every BiS pick you can get while raiding you wont cap all your combat stats let alone wisdom. Most casuals will barely cap str (with yaulp4) and stamina at the same time with optimal hp gear. They will also often be using resist jewelry if not tanking so yea, more combat stats down the drain.

I have a 220 CHA set on me I havent put on in 2 years. I still carry it though for some damn reason. Maybe to impress forum people who thinks it actually matters?

[Lune]

uhhh... is it normal for lull/soothe to crit resist about as often as it succeeds? On dark blues. This has been my experience leveling paladin so far, currently 35. Is it just that I'm very twinked and trying to lull some high dark blues? Does it fail this much 50+? High elf with 90 CHA

[Vexenu]

Yeah you're probably just trying to lull mobs that are barely below your level, which will lead to a lot more failures. Also, 90 CHA isn't that great given the small level disparity in this case. But you can easily get around +100 CHA in cheap items to throw on when trying to lull split a dangerous spawn, which should make a huge difference.

[Snaggles]

Yea 100% what Vexenu said. Same reason Ench’s don’t dabble around under the cap when soloing or farming tough things.

It will get better for sure. Solo or grouping. I’d still get the basics. Jester crown, crude stein, two overseer signets. A CHA but if you can or a luminary sword. That is another like +60.

[long.liam]

Hi all,

Just about to get started on P99 after a long 10+ year break. I've been looking around some of the various forum postings and I respect that everyone says, "Go with what you like", but I am somewhat torn between a couple of main points and I was hoping some of you knowledgeable guys & gals could help me please.

Dwarf: Best starting stats. Access to Brell Imbued cultural armor. +5 MR.
Half Elf: Mainly for access to Nature's Defender and Medium size. Also, a little fashion quest perhaps.

For the record, I know that this is an extremely small set of deciding points, and I'm sure there are probably more to consider, but I guess it could come down to essentially: is it worth having Nature's Defender (and maybe Hero Bracers) along the way for an HEF or does the mighty mini Dwarf get stuff just as good to make it worthwhile for the long haul?

The long haul is kind of what I'm trying to think about, but I love EQ and I would have a blast no matter which race I went with. I know raiding could also be a deciding factor as well, and ideally I will get to a point where I can do some of that as well because there was a lot of things I missed out on back when I first started playing in 1999 and there are lots of zones and mobs I simply need to see.

Just looking for some expert opinions and thoughts to help me make a choice. I appreciate everyone's time.

Thanks,

Uza

Honestly both are pretty bad choices, but Dwarf I guess.

[Naethyn]

Just get avatar.

[Seducio]

The dwarf roll works off really high jumps like wizard spires and things like that. Bring your GoPro.