Paladin vs Ranger......

[Morphik]

I think this is the best place to post this.

For the sake of discussion, which class has more utility, can solo/group better etc.?

Now, before this thread goes too far, lets base the discussion on a causal player, who wants to do some soloing and some grouping, and doesn't have the free time of a part time job to play the game.

Gear wise, assume reasonably priced gear that can be bought in the tunnel, some no drop / light raiding gear, some relatively attainable BiS gear, and minimal to no gear that required excessive dkp.

Thoughts???

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think this is the best place to post this.

For the sake of discussion, which class has more utility, can solo/group better etc.?

Now, before this thread goes too far, lets base the discussion on a causal player, who wants to do some soloing and some grouping, and doesn't have the free time of a part time job to play the game.

Gear wise, assume reasonably priced gear that can be bought in the tunnel, some no drop / light raiding gear, some relatively attainable BiS gear, and minimal to no gear that required excessive dkp.

Thoughts???

If you want to delve into dungeons, pick Paladin. If you prefer outdoor zones, go Ranger. Both have some utility in raids, so you won't have a problem there if you choose to raid.

Ranger will start off stronger than Paladin. They get their kit earlier and can bow kite mobs above their own level. A Paladin for the first 30-40 levels is going to feel like a lower DPS Warrior with lull/root.

Once you get into your 40s the Paladin is going to start doing much better, and will be able to sustain in melee much longer than a Ranger.

[Keebz]

Rangers deal better DPS, can fear kite animals and have a lot of outdoor utility. Paladins deal bad DPS, but are sturdier (esp. 50+) and have solid indoor utility.

Rangers get the nod for better soloing 1-50 for sure and better raid desirability as well (DPS stacks well and Weaponshield is always useful). But if you want to be tankier and derp around dungeons, the nod goes to Paladin.

[Jimjam]

Both fun classes able to do a variety of content all the way to 60. If you can get Dark Cloak of the Sky, Swiftwind and Earthcaller ranger gets especially cool 51+.

Personally I would pick Paladin, if only because I’ve more recently levelled a ranger to 60.

[jolanar]

Aside from the indoor/outdoor thing, the group role of a paladin is basically always going to be tank. A ranger can hold aggro very well, but is usually only a tank in the absence of a plate tank. Both will be asked to pull pretty often, although in the outdoor dungeons the ranger will be pulling for sure.

[Toxigen]

paladin

[ScottBerta]

I’d say Paladin. Can pacify, root, hp/ac buff, Rez, heal and stun. Plus wear plate and with a good 2hander like Reaver or Herbalist Spade you can do some serious damage.

[Naethyn]

Ranger is the first in. Paladin is the last out.

[skulldudes]

i feel like ranger needs more investment but they can be true raid ballers with those stronk melee buffs and the ability to step up and save whole engagements from wipe w/ a bump

paladins will rule ass in group content, and won't have to rely on animal fear / bow kiting at high level, and can root/heal on bad rng solo fights with DW clicks. both classes have a bit of overlap, actually, w/ root parking and harmo/lull but paladins don't have to be outdoors to hit peak shine and obviously tank better.

i've not played either class past like 20s or 30s, so take me with a grain of salt of course.

[Toxigen]

invest in kilvas w/ paladin

bigly

[Ripqozko]

If you have access to early sky cloak and epic /sboz than ranger , if ya have access to only tunnel, pally

[Troxx]

They are different enough classes with different enough job expectations that they are hard to compare.

Globally I consider the paladin to be the stronger class.

[Snaggles]

The ranger will be more dynamic. The spell kit is fun…sow, snare, root, animal fear, harmony, invis, levitate, EB. Outside fearing animals and bow rotting soloing stuff toe-to-toe will be a challenge.

The paladin is comparison is more lumbering, extremely durable. You will rarely die with LoH up if the zone is nearby. The spell kit while less exciting still very functional. The DW helm at 45 heals much faster than a fungi for 400p. With a reaver compared to a ranger with EC gear it won’t even be much (if any) behind in DPS.

Both classes are my mains. Love them both. The ranger is more fun. The paladin outside a few niche situations is definitely more capable. Especially on a budget.

[sajbert]

Paladin is better in groups. Ranger is only really useful for harmony in outdoor zones and it's fairly niche in the few indoor zones that you'll use.

I'll say ranger is better for raiding, but both are kinda meh. Ranger DPS is pretty neat and they're good speedbumps.

Paladin solos better.

[Samoht]

Raids desire at least one of either paladin or ranger, but neither are actually very good DPS.

I wouldn't even put ranger ahead of paladin in DPS end game.

Both can be useful in a clutch situation (soulfire vs weapon shield).

But the paladin ends up much more useful in the end.

Still, game needs more of both for sure.

Hard choice.

If you do make a paladin, tho, I cannot recommend dorf as a race because of the low CHA. The low STR for everybody else will be miserable at first, but that can be fixed with gear.

None of that matters for ranger. I picked wood elf for flavor.

Starting points should go into STA for both.

[Ennewi]

Rangers are the better pullers, or at least pulling more easily accomplished, particularly outdoors. But, even when confined to indoor zones, they have not only root but snare to stagger/park incoming mobs. They also used to have another advantage back when sneak pulling was still possible, being able to pick singles out of a train as long as they lined up the shot just right. That can still be done more or less, but outdoors using harmony.

With the xp penalty lifted and 2h bonus applied, both are perfectly fine for casual play. And both even have the ability to make clutch plays in the hardest raid content, with the ranger having Weaponshield and Paladin having Soulfire charges.

[Ripqozko]

Raids desire at least one of either paladin or ranger, but neither are actually very good DPS.

I wouldn't even put ranger ahead of paladin in DPS end game.

Both can be useful in a clutch situation (soulfire vs weapon shield).

But the paladin ends up much more useful in the end.

Still, game needs more of both for sure.

Hard choice.

If you do make a paladin, tho, I cannot recommend dorf as a race because of the low CHA. The low STR for everybody else will be miserable at first, but that can be fixed with gear.

None of that matters for ranger. I picked wood elf for flavor.

Starting points should go into STA for both.

thats not true, ranger dps is fine ive done up to 118 on vindi

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps

[Morphik]

Good input so far.

What would be considered a reasonable starter budget?

Starter gear recommendations?

[Keebz]

In my experience, Paladins will occasionally get asked to swap to clerics or rogues, while Rangers will not. I think that's pretty illustrative of the raid strength of each. Nonetheless, Paladins have a niche for sure with DS, back up soul fires, and the odd DA engage or ramp tank.

That said I'm having a blast on my paladin so far.

As for starter budget?

I mean ideally 70k+ for fungi (45k) + haste (13k) + weapon (10k) + tunnel gear (the rest) for both.

You could also do an 18kish version of ikky bp (9k) + haste (1k) + weapon (5k) + tunnel gear (3k).

If you can't afford either, consider some SCHW, a Jade Mace, banded / cheap tunnel crap and some 5/55 rings then go to town.

[Snaggles]

While a fungi is good for any class, casual gearing the paladin is far cheaper. The ranger doesn’t have an equivalent to the DW helm or BP so getting hps back is a pain.

Play the class you want to play. They serve very different roles, have different strengths/capacities. They also don’t feel similar, whether you are EC geared or BiS. If thinking you might die is a huge turnoff go with the paladin; if you get a rush for trying wacky stuff and not dying go ranger.

[wagorf]

paladin can perform its job and excel as a twink with exceptional gears

ranger can do the job with any gears, but is weak as f with avg gears, and still weak with nice gears (300k+ invested), and still does not excel with exceptional gears (raid drops and weapons with 600k+ plat items invested)

[Solist]

Rangers are junk.

I have two. They weaponshield. And snipe statues evidently.

Paladins are less junk.

Make a warrior/rog.

[magnetaress]

End game paladin stomps ranger with all their free clickies n stuff. For raw power levels.

Butt if u wanna grind lvl 35 and under mobs. Ranger is faster.

[Naethyn]

Both do fine with a full set of SS armor, yelinak talisman, and a city leader wep.

[Philistine]

I feel like folks just need to go into either of these classes with accurate expectations. They both bring a lot of utility and value in their own way, but neither will tank the tough raid targets (well, rangers will for up to 3 ticks) and neither will top dps charts.

As with any class in EQ, there are compromises.

[Garnaak]

I don't have either of these class, so unable to comment except


Now, before this thread goes too far, lets base the discussion on a causal player, who wants to do some soloing and some grouping, and doesn't have the free time of a part time job to play the game.



some relatively attainable BiS gear, and minimal to no gear that required excessive dkp.


The above two statements appear to me to be at odds with each other. Is this a casual player who may hit 50 in a few years or someone grinding out a lvl 60 raiding toon in 4 months, who plans on grinding 8 hours every quake?

[enjchanter]

I think this is the best place to post this.

For the sake of discussion, which class has more utility, can solo/group better etc.?

Now, before this thread goes too far, lets base the discussion on a causal player, who wants to do some soloing and some grouping, and doesn't have the free time of a part time job to play the game.

Gear wise, assume reasonably priced gear that can be bought in the tunnel, some no drop / light raiding gear, some relatively attainable BiS gear, and minimal to no gear that required excessive dkp.

Thoughts???

honestly these 2 classes are probably almost perfectly equal based on your criteria.

Both will do well with standard melee twinking. Both epics are relatively fair game (ranger is harder but you can get 1 sword easily atleast). Their utility kit is similar strength with an edge going to paladin. Off healing, roots and a class specific buff at its core, rangers getting snare and harmony, paladins getting real pacify and stuns.

Both are underplayed classes but paladins have more Knight only gear that will go for pennies so edge to paladins on end game gear probably.

[Snaggles]

I started both my ranger and pally without any desire to raid on p99. Really just to be weird and pick underdog classes. If anything ive been surprised how much the pally can tank and how much dps the ranger can do. That doesn’t even go into the niche buffs and tricks like bumping and Soulfire clicking.

They can both solo to 60 or have fun in groups. You can help friends with quests. Their epics are very attainable (and Tunare paladins have a semi-epic you can do in an afternoon with a MQ).

[Troxx]

I have found both classes to be equally useful. I found the Ranger to have the edge on “fun to play”. The paladin is objectively the more powerful of the two across the board even factoring the perks for rangers outdoors.

It is easier to solo xp on the Ranger if you can use the full tool-kit (ie outdoors).

[Toxigen]

It is easier to solo xp on the Ranger if you can use the full tool-kit (ie outdoors).

Easier, yes.

I reckon the paladin in a high zem dungeon keeping a little camp down will fair better in the XP / hour.

[Troxx]

Definitely possible. And the paladin has the option of doing that higher indoor dungeon zem content. If the ranger had a lull usable indoors I’d be interested to see how it panned out.

Ranger: modestly higher white damage dps, ability to self regen, ability to self damage shield, ability to proc a slow with an actually decent cheap EC weapon (Willsapper notwithstanding).

Paladin: modestly worse damage output (assuming no endgame ToV knight weapon rots), lack of self DS, superior heal potential, free clicky heals ($$$$$), calm/paci.

Ranger is gonna kill faster. Paladin will probably have less down time between kills.

It’s a toss up which will grind faster but yeah as I previously said Paladin is the stronger class when you look at the whole scope. That, and you can fully function just as well indoors as out unlike the Ranger.

[Naethyn]

Both can quad kite raptors with a woushi bow.

[Samoht]

Ranger: ability to self regen

Paladin: lack of self DS

Rangers don't get regen until 55 and paladins can click DS pot. These aren't really noteworthy points.

[Jimjam]

Both can quad kite raptors with a woushi bow.

Sounds awful. Maybe passable on a fat SK that can use Weighted axe?

[Naethyn]

The raptors die from the aoe proc not the arrows.

[Jimjam]

The raptors die from the aoe proc not the arrows.

Do they?

edit: like even with a weighted axe to glitch proc rate... do they?

[Snaggles]

Kiting with a skydarkener is some pretty gross napkin math. I regret looting mine.

As for the fabled “bad knight dps” to what degree? Raid buffed on Yeli compared to a ranger? Sure apples to apples gear the ranger will do better. Normal blue con stuff or solo? It’s closer. EC gear to EC gear? The pally is probably as good or better…Narandi or Reaver vs SBoZ/Swiftwind or Woodsman?

With all the toys on casual stuff the gap widens. BFG’s and sky cloaks. In those adventures when you can’t get all the buffs a ranger does a lot more dps. Like 1.5-3x for at least two mins.

[Troxx]

Rangers don't get regen until 55 and paladins can click DS pot. These aren't really noteworthy points.

This is true, but whether DS potions factor in is going to depend on how wealthy the player is. I always carried around a few charges on my warrior and paladin for situational use but I wasn’t chugging a new one every 8-12 minutes for mundane stuff like xp grinding. The production cost (assuming you had a shaman alt or a buddy willing to sell it to you *at cost* is like 14pp per hit for the low level DS potion and 37pp for the higher level potion. At resale prices in EC, DS potions can be considered a luxury commodity. I’m fortunate enough to have a shaman alt that can make them.

Bear in mind the OP stated fairly modest gearing expectations in his first post. His post doesn’t jump out at me with the implication he’s going to be dropping a ton of money on short duration potions.


Gear wise, assume reasonably priced gear that can be bought in the tunnel, some no drop / light raiding gear, some relatively attainable BiS gear, and minimal to no gear that required excessive dkp.

Regardless, I don’t think we even disagree. The paladin has the stronger innate toolkit. A cheap deepwater helm at 45 tips the scales even further.

I think my original point still stands. In general the ranger will be getting each mob dead faster. The paladin will have a quicker between-fight recovery and a wider range of safe hunting grounds with a lull line that works indoors.

[Jimjam]

Kiting with a skydarkener is some pretty gross napkin math. I regret looting mine.

As for the fabled “bad knight dps” to what degree? Raid buffed on Yeli compared to a ranger? Sure apples to apples gear the ranger will do better. Normal blue con stuff or solo? It’s closer. EC gear to EC gear? The pally is probably as good or better…Narandi or Reaver vs SBoZ/Swiftwind or Woodsman?

With all the toys on casual stuff the gap widens. BFG’s and sky cloaks. In those adventures when you can’t get all the buffs a ranger does a lot more dps. Like 1.5-3x for at least two mins.

I took my skydarkner out for a spin. I don't have a super low delay weapon, so just grabbed an unhasted rusty 2 handed scythe to compare with something faster. From a very tiny unscientific sample the long delay on this set up seemed to result in more procs than using hasted epics. The bow barely proced with epic, but with unhasted 2 hander it seemed to proc more often. Perhaps a type 1 error. Could be an interesting avenue for further research. Red players may already have it sussed.

Either way kiting with skydarkener was a terrible experience, (which is how I remember it, and how it napkinmaths out as*).

Perhaps it gets better with practice and knowing all the mechanics/interactions/right kit (I am not familiar with raptors so had to root a bunch of spare mobs and kite in the sea)? Maybe with Earthshaker or weighted axe (lets bring fat SKs into the discussion) and best haste (so main target takes fair bow damage and the quad damage is bonus gravy) it would be almost feasible enough to counteract how annoying it is? With the configurations I was using I ran out of 100 arrows before one raptor ran out of hp. It was terrible.

*184*4*2/60=24 proc dps spread across all four targets assuming a very favourable 2 procs per minute

[Naethyn]

ive had worse