Is Shaman the BEST all-around class in the game?

[SorenVC]

Some YouTube comment said Shaman is 2nd best at EVERYTHING and also a good starter class.

He argued Shaman could do almost everything an enchanter could do among other things, providing buffs to allies and himself and tank damage, wear heavy armor as Barbarian. What's there to hate? Do you agree?

[Toxigen]

they're not even close to enchanter save for a few niche things like +6 dragons

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Enchanters and Shamans are the two best solo-challenge classes on P99, assuming they are fully built. Their kits are very well rounded, which is why they can do more content than other classes.

Enchanters are better than Shamans whenever there are viable mobs to charm.

Shamans are better than Enchanters whenever charming isn't viable, and mobs are slowable. Shamans also have some overlap with content Enchanters can do. Shamans may not be as good at it, but it's still doable.

On P99 there is more content suited for Enchanters than Shamans on the Server's timeline. This is why Enchanters tend to be the best "all-around" class, and Shamans end up coming in second.

Obviously some content is better suited for specific classes that aren't Shaman or Enchanter, but the idea of an "all-around" class is they can do more desirable content than other classes. Bards can kill 25 trash mobs faster than Shamans or Enchanters via kiting. The end result of that kind of play is limited to power leveling for money, and most people think of an "all-around" class as one that can camp the most desirable items. Enchanter wins in this regard.

[Troxx]

They’re a contender as long as they choose racial regen …

[Videri]

Some YouTube comment said Shaman is 2nd best at EVERYTHING and also a good starter class.

He argued Shaman could do almost everything an enchanter could do among other things, providing buffs to allies and himself and tank damage, wear heavy armor as Barbarian. What's there to hate? Do you agree?

It sounds like you want to min-max. If that’s the case, why not pick Ogre for high stamina and frontal stun immunity; Troll for hp regen and high stamina; or Iksar for regen, AC bonus, and convenient Medium size?

Faction issues are mostly irrelevant since you’ll be slaying all the frogs in Sebilis anyway (or all the Whatevers on WhateverTown), so choosing Barbarian doesn’t give you anything that compares with the above. There are many threads about this already, so feel free to read through them for further information and opinions.

[Penish]

if you're in it for the long haul and you know it, a cleric with puppet strings trumps both classes, enjoy

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They’re a contender as long as they choose racial regen …

Troxx is trying to bloat another thread by derailing it into a different discussion. He isn't responding in good faith, and he isn't being serious. You can ignore him.

if you're in it for the long haul and you know it, a cleric with puppet strings trumps both classes, enjoy

While you are correct a Cleric with Puppet Strings can do some amazing things, you are looking at a 60-80k initial investment with a 20k recharge cost per 10 clicks. 30-40k initial investment if you have someone you can trust to help you recharge. Depending on that player's availability, you may not be able to recharge as often if you go down this route.

It is much more expensive than playing a fully geared Shaman or Enchanter when looking at how often you'd need to recharge puppet strings. 20k every 10 camp attempts at best, assuming you never fail or need to click it multiple times in a fight. Shamans and Enchanters have a higher initial investment, but you are going to be spending a lot more platinum over time than either class.

[Penish]

still having problems with reading comprehension i see, keep workin at it man

[DeathsSilkyMist]

still having problems with reading comprehension i see, keep workin at it man

Please stop posting nonsense. If you want to clarify your point, please do that instead. As it stands, your current post misses the big caveat of how much platinum you need to spend on puppet strings as a Cleric. Sadly they are no longer cheap to recharge.

[Penish]

what a neet, lawl

[Duik]

World first, as at posting time 2:38pm aussie time now is 3:20pm DSM has NOT edited that post.

Writing score: 5/10

[Troxx]

:p

[sajbert]

Depends on how u define all-round class.

Shaman can melee, heal, buff, nuke, debuff, dot and has a pet. Depending on your parameters maybe a Druid could reach that level of diversity. Bard can also arguably come close.

As far as power go a geared 60-shaman is considered one of the best small-group and solo classes.

So yeah, shaman is it then.

However, shaman is not a strong starting class IMO.

[Toxigen]

enc > shaman > bard

[Keebz]

Since OP specifically asked for some hate, let me say shamans might be the most tedious class in the game. Here, try the simulator https://www.cs.mun.ca/~dchurchill/eq/shaman/
Are we having fun yet?

But as for best all around class, they are definitely versatile, but I'd say ench, necro, bard, and even druid are up there as well. If you want a buff bot, however, look no further. Shaman is #1.

[PatChapp]

Not just buff bots,they get to die slowing too.
And then redoing a bunch of agi buffs on necros

[Ripqozko]

Go to one hot raid as the lone shaman, you will delete your char and start new.

[zelld52]

Go to one hot raid as the lone shaman, you will delete your char and start new.

i parsed my actions in HoT.


55% of casts were cannibalize 4
10% of casts were torpor
10% of casts were slow
5% malo
20% buffs

[Ripqozko]

i parsed my actions in HoT.


55% of casts were cannibalize 4
10% of casts were torpor
10% of casts were slow
5% malo
20% buffs

sounds terrible, were you the only shm?

[Troxx]

i parsed my actions in HoT.


55% of casts were cannibalize 4
10% of casts were torpor
10% of casts were slow
5% malo
20% buffs

Sounds about right.

On a medium sized or higher raid it can get really tedious. The more melee there are and the fewer shamans there are … it can get rough.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i parsed my actions in HoT.


55% of casts were cannibalize 4
10% of casts were torpor
10% of casts were slow
5% malo
20% buffs

Yeah that is about right. Torpor Shamans spend a good amount of time casting Cannibalize.

Shamans are quite active on raids. I'm almost always doing something, unless we are waiting for some reason.

Personally I like that. Getting the Malo/Slow landed in a quick manner can be the difference between a victory and a raid wipe. Same with healing, or removing Disease on a Vulak fight.

Not all classes are as active/useful in raids, so that is something to be thankful for IMO.

[greatdane]

Shaman takes a lot of stuff before the class really comes into its own. Epic, Torpor (or fungi pre-60), Malo, maybe JBB though it isn't as integral, and you also need generally good gear. Meanwhile, enchanter requires next to nothing to be at its full potential, basically just an instant invis clicky that you can get for like 5k or camp at level 20.

[Jimjam]

Shaman is super versatile, has some wonderfully thematic race/deity combos, lots of interesting gear options to pursue, but also none of the gear is really ‘mandatory’ to hit 60. It does well whether as a twink or as a self-found toon and can find a role in any group while being a fine soloer or support to lower level toons.

Once 60 the game doesn’t stop, and there are plenty of options to pursue (beyond raiding).

The class is generally very forgiving, can be played active or passive, but equally can be really minmaxed and pushed to it’s limit.

It has it’s own tradeskill line and several racial tradeskill options.

The sheer versatility in play styles, philosophy, goals, etc gives it so much to offer almost any kind of player and can sate any mindset from the most humble to externalised egotist leads me to the conclusion it is the overall best all things considered, even if not quite the best at some/any specific thing.

[Snaggles]

No. They are boring, expensive to gear, have a slow casting “good root”, no splitting method. Most the races come severe exp penalties.

They are highly specific and useful tools. I leveled and geared one to help friends. I find the cleric more fun with a bit of practice. Also generally they are harder to find and on raids they have a cumulative benefit that tapers much slower.

[zelld52]

No. They are boring, expensive to gear, have a slow casting “good root”, no splitting method. Most the races come severe exp penalties.

They are highly specific and useful tools. I leveled and geared one to help friends. I find the cleric more fun with a bit of practice. Also generally they are harder to find and on raids they have a cumulative benefit that tapers much slower.

Agrees on all your points, but the shaman does get fun at high skill level. Shaman pacify = root mob in camp, run around corner, root mob, run around corner root mob. Run around corner, camp. Hope to catch one pathing back out of LoS when you log back in

The one thing about shaman is against melee, priest or weaker casters, a shaman has ultimate survivability. With malaise and paralyzing earth only being 200mana per mob, and torpor only being 200 mana - it’s pretty hard to die in most circumstances

[fortior]

I think it's really hard to beat enchanters. Mandatory raid buffs for casters and melee (c2/gob/vog) versus good to have buffs like sta/fos, which while great to have, aren't my #1 need as a melee or cleric. I also think enchanters solo better and scale harder with a group because CC is so good.

I personally don't like playing enchanters, but I'll log them to beat up a really tough spawn or something like that. I think it's difficult to characterize a class without aggro manipulation tools as 'best all around'.

[WarpathEQ]

I would consider Bard the best all around class as they can do a little of every single thing that other classes can just not as powerfully, they are the only class that can truly fill any role to an extent.

Shaman is best in game in certain situations like 1v1 soloing the toughest mobs in game. Slowing high end mobs, resist debuffing, and melee buffing.

[Jimjam]

I think it's really hard to beat enchanters. Mandatory raid buffs for casters and melee (c2/gob/vog) versus good to have buffs like sta/fos, which while great to have, aren't my #1 need as a melee or cleric. I also think enchanters solo better and scale harder with a group because CC is so good.

I personally don't like playing enchanters, but I'll log them to beat up a really tough spawn or something like that. I think it's difficult to characterize a class without aggro manipulation tools as 'best all around'.
Imo enchanters are best, but not best all round.

Shaman can heal, can take hits, they have a bit more interesting gear pathways.

[Estrang87]

they're not even close to enchanter save for a few niche things like +6 dragons

What about necro? Always felt like they were nuts at soloing stuff and the way they can do chardok/HS was impressive.

[Toxigen]

What about necro? Always felt like they were nuts at soloing stuff and the way they can do chardok/HS was impressive.

necro is limited to undead

enchanter does it all, its by far the strongest class in the game

[branamil]

Charm is simply beyond busted in this game. When you charm, you can consider the MOB and the player as one unit, and then it looks like a buff that says, "Gain 15,000 HP. Gain the ability to quad for 250."

[loramin]

Charm is simply beyond busted on P99, by design.
FTFY

[strongNpretty]

I would throw my 2 cents in as druid being best all around class.. Jack of all trades, master of none. The quality of life spells. Crowd control spells. Nukes, Dots. Heals. Charms. Buffs. Quadding. I think that is also 1 reason people suggest druid as first character so often. Not cause of just port money. But you can camp enough targets easily in different ways to earn significant funds. And you can accomplish these things without fancy gear. i mean i think they cover most bases except melee.. I mean, yeah, shaman is great, enchanter also is great. Is enchanter an all around class though? It can do a lot of things great, but it also cannot do a lot of other things.. But i'd say best all around class comes down to a druid vs a shaman in my eyes.. I realize most higher level groups, grouping for casual xp don't want a druid. cause another class can usually fill the specific need they are looking for better.. But they could still fill the gaps of many classes in a group if needed..

[Vexenu]

It depends on what best means.

Enchanter is obviously the best in terms of sheer solo strength, with Shaman as runner-up.

Bard is the best in terms of versatility and highest skill cap.

Druid is the best combination of power and quality of life tools/ease of play, with Necro as runner up.

[Toxigen]

I would throw my 2 cents in as druid being best all around class.. Jack of all trades, master of none. The quality of life spells. Crowd control spells. Nukes, Dots. Heals. Charms. Buffs. Quadding. I think that is also 1 reason people suggest druid as first character so often. Not cause of just port money. But you can camp enough targets easily in different ways to earn significant funds. And you can accomplish these things without fancy gear. i mean i think they cover most bases except melee.. I mean, yeah, shaman is great, enchanter also is great. Is enchanter an all around class though? It can do a lot of things great, but it also cannot do a lot of other things.. But i'd say best all around class comes down to a druid vs a shaman in my eyes.. I realize most higher level groups, grouping for casual xp don't want a druid. cause another class can usually fill the specific need they are looking for better.. But they could still fill the gaps of many classes in a group if needed..

What can an enchanter not do?

[Duik]

Teleport.
Stop rain.
Get smashed by 3 mobs while trying to CC them 1 at a time :+P

[strongNpretty]

What can an enchanter not do?

I mean.. A lot really. and an enchanter can do a lot a druid can't do. I'm not here to argue if an enchanter is stronger or better than a druid.. But a druid does have access to more tools, quality of life spells, and a multitude of different ways to XP. I think you've been playing long enough to know exactly the things an enchanter can and cant do. and the things a druid can and cant do.

I'm sticking to the subject of this thread- best ALL AROUND class. To me a druid checks that box. Just my opinion though.

[thebutthat]

Best all-around is probably fair. DPS is reasonable. Healing is good. Utility/buffs are good. Pretty tanky. You can kind of do a little bit of everything pretty well. You can duo with any class and add a lot of value and be fairly efficient...besides maybe a wizard. They're not the most time or cost efficient though. A half ass geared enchanter can force multiple an xp group way more and take down way more solo targets. Not to mention they easily navigate most dungeons and split the camps with ease.

Druids are a good arguement just because of a lower cost barrier. I think their lack of slow or indoor lull limits them a little bit more because they dont have much in terms of dealing with summons. But track does open some options the other two miss out on for named cycles.

[Snaggles]

Being able debuff MR with an irresistible spell, slow well, kinda dps, and kinda heal forever makes the class capable.

Outside debuffing and mana generation the rest of those skills are mediocre. They also are without any lull or real CC method. You can basically put out 50dps and heal the same amount nearly forever. The gameplay is like laying siege to something…you just hope to survive longer than the enemy.

I only have one 60 that can charm (Druid). Even with its limitations anytime I solo and can charm or the target won’t summon I play it over the shaman. I used the Druid to farm my wiz’s Dragonbane herb since torp-tanking seahorses was not fun nor fast.

[Toxigen]

potg (lvl 60) is their one good buff

they dont do any damage unless there is an appropriate level animal around

tanky? lol

their CC is root

will heal themselves oom unless there is a slower

do druids work until 50? sure, GL doing anything that isn't charming or just being carried by charming enc / necro afterwards tho

fwiw i pimped my druid - full SS, epic, the works and solo charmed the whole way...did CT gators, OT, EJ, bats n bugs, chardok, then bear pits...that was the only decent way to level a druid because you'd just be laughed out of groups

and quadding is awful, dont get me started

so you gotta go through all that for a pretty good buff and a port bot....ok and some fast heals for vyemm / topping off melee dps in raids

[strongNpretty]

potg (lvl 60) is their one good buff

they dont do any damage unless there is an appropriate level animal around

tanky? lol

their CC is root

will heal themselves oom unless there is a slower

do druids work until 50? sure, GL doing anything that isn't charming or just being carried by charming enc / necro afterwards tho

fwiw i pimped my druid - full SS, epic, the works and solo charmed the whole way...did CT gators, OT, EJ, bats n bugs, chardok, then bear pits...that was the only decent way to level a druid because you'd just be laughed out of groups

and quadding is awful, dont get me started

so you gotta go through all that for a pretty good buff and a port bot....ok and some fast heals for vyemm / topping off melee dps in raids

You sound so defensive for some reason. I understand what you are saying, i do. I promise you I do. But i don't think you're answering based on the question being asked. And there are plenty of things in between your points made, that are being left out.
-Druids can root of course, they can also snare, and harmony is amazing. Yes its limited to zones, same with charming, but they can.

-Yes POTG, is 60, but so are many other amazing spells with all classes. it's not like enchanters just get VoG or Clarity 2 at level 1..

-Druids aren't tanky of course, but they can take more abuse then an enchanter.

-I Quadded through maaany levels on my druid, and it was 0 problem. Especially leading up to late 50's quadding othmirs in cobalt scar to 60. Exp was great, money was amazing. Gems, Crustacean armor, spears. I also worked my way up to all keys solo in frozen tower which i had a blast doing. Except Tserrina key of course.

-Tracking is extremely handy.... I already said nobody needs a druid in a group. That was already said- but it doesn't mean they can't fill the gaps of a role if nobody else is around.. Due to the tools they do have.

Again man- Druid- Obviously not the strongest. But how can you ignore the fact that they CAN do a loooooooot. Overall, they can tackle a lot of different roles. But i can't make it any more clear- Jack of all trades, master of none.

[bcbrown]

Druids are lots of fun, probably the best newbie class. Great mobility with sow and ports. Can tank through the teens. Has access to all the tactics of any magic-using class: charm, root-rotting, quadding, nuking. Minimal gear requirements; just need a fire beetle eye. Great class to explore Norrath for the first time and figure out what playstyle you prefer. Easy way to make decently mediocre money (porting) when you don't know about any of the good cash camps yet. Has the best buffs for running around newbie zones and buffing people: Skin, sow, regen, thorns. Tracking is fantastic QoL.

I just can't make the case for "best all-around" simply because their power drops off so heavily in the 50s, though.

[Snaggles]

I just like druids because people count them out. A little gear and hard work and they can do some great stuff. Can’t slow or heal amazing but thorns is solid dps and they have the second best CC in the game. First if you can’t mez stuff.

Meanwhile a shaman lands a slow and is like “ahem, my medal pls?”

A marginal shaman is far better than a lazy Druid. So yea, I guess the rep is usually justified.

[Naethyn]

Shaman is the best new to server class.

[sajbert]

Shaman is the best new to server class.
Nah.

Shaman is a harsh grind 1-34 without twinking and without all the expensive spells, epic and level 60 remains a solid group member but a mediocre soloist. Even with torpor it’s not your first choice for solo crawls.

An enchanter may be more challenging to play but only if you choose to take it to that level. Same can be said about necromancer but an enchanter doesn’t need any fancy items other than a 6k GGR and dirt cheap charisma gear to rock n’ roll. Beginners should not be afraid of playing enchanter.

For AFK leveling and QoL raiding Druid and Wizard shine instead.

[Snaggles]

Shaman is very rough without a fungi. Even then the power ramp is very gradual. I bet Everfrost Peaks at night alone is a reason why 30% of people quit EQ about a week into playing.

[Naethyn]

Iksar

[Zuranthium]

Shaman is very rough without a fungi. Even then the power ramp is very gradual. I bet Everfrost Peaks at night alone is a reason why 30% of people quit EQ about a week into playing.

Everfrost Peaks as a Barbarian Shaman when the game came out is one of my favorite experiences. Being nightblind in the mountain maze and expansive tundra with danger lurking everywhere, getting insta invited to groups of Warriors because that class outnumbered Shaman 4-to-1 and they needed a healer, everyone huddling around and slowly moving through the zone together. Was a real adventure.

But yeah it's a pain these days, and even back then I changed classes after getting into the teens; the heals weren't scaling well at those levels and I couldn't do very good DPS either. Rolled a Mage and had great fun with that, starting on the complete opposite side of the world as a Gnome and being able to churn out DPS self-sufficiently.

I'd rank Shaman 7th as a new-to-server class. Necro, Enchanter, Mage, Bard, Druid, Cleric will be able to make more happen for themselves.

[Jimjam]

Rogue is best new to server class.

[sajbert]

Rogue is best new to server class.

Lets play devil’s advocate.

Rogues are reknowned poor soloers and barring heavy twinking and gear not available in Classic they are relegated to grouping. Whilst outdoor ZEM made people move away from grouping there were still more groups to be found in Classic than today.

Rogues don’t need any expensive gear until Kunark outside of maybe fbss. No spells either. Sure, an enchanter can farm big plat items but needs to sell then just to afford their spells and gear. Camping items and fighting for camps is overrated! And if you want to you could always pickpocker and kill low level mobs for plat.

In Classic it’s easy to get around everywhere. With Kunark and Velious it starts to suck hard not having gate. If you die in Guk and no res/port? Just run and sneak/hide back.

Guise? Manastone? Who needs them? Remember, camping items is overrated.

[zelld52]

Yes shaman is the best class in the game. Because they don't die.

Have levelled to 60 and done "solo challenges" with:

Shaman (3)
Enchanter (1)
Monk (2)
Necro (1)
Druid (1)

At 60, the Enchanter is far-and-away more capable of soloing than shaman. HOWEVER, there are certain situations that I much rather use shaman on than enchanter. Bascially any time I think because of mob level that charm might not hold, or Paci might crit resist, or if theres just one mob I want to kill, solo in a room.

Shaman just don't die, especially at 60 (unless you get really bad luck) I much rather solo Brogg in Sebilis on my shaman using root / camp to split - than trying to paci and keep a charm going on a pet, for it to break - Brogg to summon and enchanter dead.

Torpor is broken. Turgurs on top of Torpor is extra broken. With shit gear at level 60 and only Torpor (no Pox, no Bane, no Malo) i was able to solo Seb Crypt rooms on Shaman and got a Hiero cloak.

On Enchanter, it's soloable too - but not 100% surefire easy-clap like shaman

[Crede]

Yes shaman is the best class in the game. Because they don't die.

Have levelled to 60 and done "solo challenges" with:

Shaman (3)
Enchanter (1)
Monk (2)
Necro (1)
Druid (1)

At 60, the Enchanter is far-and-away more capable of soloing than shaman. HOWEVER, there are certain situations that I much rather use shaman on than enchanter. Bascially any time I think because of mob level that charm might not hold, or Paci might crit resist, or if theres just one mob I want to kill, solo in a room.

Shaman just don't die, especially at 60 (unless you get really bad luck) I much rather solo Brogg in Sebilis on my shaman using root / camp to split - than trying to paci and keep a charm going on a pet, for it to break - Brogg to summon and enchanter dead.

Torpor is broken. Turgurs on top of Torpor is extra broken. With shit gear at level 60 and only Torpor (no Pox, no Bane, no Malo) i was able to solo Seb Crypt rooms on Shaman and got a Hiero cloak.

On Enchanter, it's soloable too - but not 100% surefire easy-clap like shaman

Heh, you're doing Brogg wrong then if you think it's not trivial on an enchanter. They can run circles around shamans with that camp in tunnel gear.

I think the overall best class in the game in Velious is easily a monk with their broken mitigation & roguelike dps. They scale extremely well in every composition whereas other classes usually fall short in one area of play. As someone else mentioned though strings cleric is probably the ultimate soloer.

[shovelquest]

i parsed my actions in HoT.


55% of casts were cannibalize 4
10% of casts were torpor
10% of casts were slow
5% malo
20% buffs

since you cast cani like a lot, does this mean the 20% that makes up buffs, comes out to like 5,000 buffs?

[Toxigen]

Heh, you're doing Brogg wrong then if you think it's not trivial on an enchanter. They can run circles around shamans with that camp in tunnel gear.

I think the overall best class in the game in Velious is easily a monk with their broken mitigation & roguelike dps. They scale extremely well in every composition whereas other classes usually fall short in one area of play. As someone else mentioned though strings cleric is probably the ultimate soloer.

that and the enchanter is down there with the PH dead before the shaman even enters disco lol

enchanter as it exists on p99 is miles ahead as the best class

however, id still rather have a full BiS monk just for the flex

[zelld52]

Heh, you're doing Brogg wrong then if you think it's not trivial on an enchanter. They can run circles around shamans with that camp in tunnel gear.

I think the overall best class in the game in Velious is easily a monk with their broken mitigation & roguelike dps. They scale extremely well in every composition whereas other classes usually fall short in one area of play. As someone else mentioned though strings cleric is probably the ultimate soloer.

maybe i am. idk, ive been very risk-averse on my enchanter recently because im rusty.

but yes monk is most fun for sure. dual wield maxed by level 35 ++ they are the only melee that get melee skills above 200 before level 50

[Vivitron]

maybe i am. idk, ive been very risk-averse on my enchanter recently because im rusty.

In these kinds of threads there are always comments emphasizing that enchanters can solo nice targets without being geared, and it's true*, but imo playing a geared enchanter is pretty noticeable, and one of the nice things about it is it pushes back that risk and allows more things to feel comfortable.

*Dictate is big for a few nice camps, though, and it looks like it's almost half as expensive as Torpor on green now.

[Vexenu]

enchanter as it exists on p99 is miles ahead as the best class

however, id still rather have a full BiS monk just for the flex
P1999 Enchanters are not only far and away the best class and completely OP, they are arguably the most busted/OP class in the history of MMORPGs. It's honestly laughable and absurd what they can do solo compared to every other class. If the original devs could see what Enchanters are like on P1999 they would have justifiably freaked out and literally removed charm from the game entirely.

Enchanters would be much more balanced if their charm was limited exclusively to sentient/humanoid mobs (i.e. Sarnaks, Frogloks, Drolvargs, giants, all playable races, etc...). Basically anything with an intelligent "mind" that could be controlled. No animals, undead, goos, golems, etc... Then take Clarity and give it to Wizards. And the funny thing is, even after these major nerfs Enchanters would still be the best and most OP class in the game. That tells you how absolutely busted they are in their current state.

[loramin]

If the original devs could see what Enchanters are like on P1999 they would have justifiably freaked out and literally removed charm from the game entirely.

No, they wouldn't have: the brokenly powerful Enchanter is a uniquely P99 phenomena, so it'd be silly of them to nerf charm just because one fan of that class built an emulator with unclassicaly powerful charm 20+ years later ;)

[Crede]

P1999 Enchanters are not only far and away the best class and completely OP, they are arguably the most busted/OP class in the history of MMORPGs. It's honestly laughable and absurd what they can do solo compared to every other class. If the original devs could see what Enchanters are like on P1999 they would have justifiably freaked out and literally removed charm from the game entirely.

Enchanters would be much more balanced if their charm was limited exclusively to sentient/humanoid mobs (i.e. Sarnaks, Frogloks, Drolvargs, giants, all playable races, etc...). Basically anything with an intelligent "mind" that could be controlled. No animals, undead, goos, golems, etc... Then take Clarity and give it to Wizards. And the funny thing is, even after these major nerfs Enchanters would still be the best and most OP class in the game. That tells you how absolutely busted they are in their current state.

If calm and channeling ever get nerfed enchanters will be back to normal. I think monks are much more broken. Not sure why a peaceful minded class concept can put out ridiculous damage.

[bcbrown]

If calm and channeling ever get nerfed enchanters will be back to normal. I think monks are much more broken. Not sure why a peaceful minded class concept can put out ridiculous damage.

An interesting nerf might be to make charmed pets uncontrollable, the same as enchanter summoned pets. Still good CC, still usable while soloing, but riskier.

[loramin]

An interesting nerf might be to make charmed pets uncontrollable, the same as enchanter summoned pets. Still good CC, still usable while soloing, but riskier.

The solution isn't custom fixes, it's to make the server classic.

The devs know how to do that already: there's both classic evidence of specific changes our researchers have submitted (eg. the channeling rate is too high, which makes charm break recovery too easy), and there's the "you don't need any evidence to just see that P99 isn't classic" stuff (eg. simply increasing the % chance of charm breaking ... since that number was almost certainly a guess in the first place, given that no one knew the original Verant numbers).

But sadly, unless you can think of a creative way to change Nilbog's mind (after all these years of unclassic charming on P99), nothing anyone can do will actually fix this.

[shovelquest]

If I can kill a named with dictate, I can kill any name in the game with more frequent charm breaks.

It would change nothing.

Nobody is sitting around thinking, "boy this pet lasts forever" nor is a pet frequently breaking an issue in any enchanter situation (because it happens all the time)

If I will not stand up and go to the bathroom now, with a charmed pet, what makes you think that making them break more frequently would make me less powerful as an echanter?

Short of making charm last 15 seconds with a 30 second recast time, you ain't gonna change nuthin with no charm duration changes.

[Snaggles]

^^ 100%

A lot of what makes EQ sims different is the temperment of the players. Sure charm didn’t last as long on live but the people not charming pets just wanted a more chill game. Or they didn’t want to burn tons of peridots in groups. Or nobody expected every enchanter to just do it.

[loramin]

If I can kill a named with dictate, I can kill any name in the game with more frequent charm breaks.

It would change nothing.


Dictate is a level 60 Enchanter spell. So even if I buy your argument (and I don't), fixing charming would make the server more classic for Enchanters 1-59 and Bards/Druids/Necros 1-60.

I think it would change a lot.

[loramin]

^^ 100%

A lot of what makes EQ sims different is the temperment of the players. Sure charm didn’t last as long on live but the people not charming pets just wanted a more chill game. Or they didn’t want to burn tons of peridots in groups. Or nobody expected every enchanter to just do it.

I'm so sick of hearing this terrible argument.

It amounts to "live Enchanters didn't know how to cast the spells on their spell list" ... despite the fact that there was 20x or more of them playing on live than on here, and they all shared information on the Enchanter forum the same way we share info here. In fact, they did so a lot more, because the game was new, there was no wiki, and there was a lot more info to share.

So either 20x Enchanters were all terrible players who couldn't cast spells on their list ... or our emulator is doing a bad job of emulating (in the one specific area of charm; it does a pretty amazing job almost everywhere else).

[sajbert]

To be fair. Looking at later games such as WoW it was obvious that even the big guilds had little clue as to what they're doing. Vanilla WoW is played in a way today that's vastly different from back then. People solo-farming gold in high level group and raid content, people leveling by pulling and AoEing entire dungeons, people PvP'ing using tactics and items that were previously unused.

Velious era EQ is even older. The grind to 50+ is way more brutal than WoW. I can buy that tactics and understanding of the game were limited to the point that some EQ chanter soloing content wasn't a commonly know about thing.

But if channeling truly is broken on p99 and better than it should be, torpor also shouldn't have been a viable front-tanking method. Is there any evidence for torpor working the way it does?

[loramin]

Look, I 100% agree that players have figured out how to do new things on emulated servers years later. For instance, Plane of Hate tracking simply didn't happen in classic ... but it may well have been possible, and everyone was just too afraid of losing their corpse to do it (we can't know for sure, since we don't have the original spawn points).

But basic stuff, like trying to use your spells (whether it was charm or Torpor), was 100% tried ... and again, it wasn't just tried, it was tried twenty times as much (probably more) than it has been here.

So I'm very sympathetic to "live was different from here" arguments ... just not when it comes to stuff that players obviously would have tried doing in classic ... like charm soloing.

P.S. I was a Shaman on live, and Torpor was definitely a crazy powerful spell back then (I desperately wanted it) ... but because it was so hard to get I wound up skipping straight to the next spell in the line (Quiessence?), so I personally can't speak to Torpor's classic-ness here.

[Snaggles]

I'm so sick of hearing this terrible argument.

It amounts to "live Enchanters didn't know how to cast the spells on their spell list" ... despite the fact that there was 20x or more of them playing on live than on here, and they all shared information on the Enchanter forum the same way we share info here. In fact, they did so a lot more, because the game was new, there was no wiki, and there was a lot more info to share.

So either 20x Enchanters were all terrible players who couldn't cast spells on their list ... or our emulator is doing a bad job of emulating (in the one specific area of charm; it does a pretty amazing job almost everywhere else).

Or the majority of players in 1999-2002 had varying degrees of garbage ISP’s. Going LD means you need to get a rez, maybe a summon. The amount of coffins being burned in 2024 with everyone having a spare epic cleric is like 100/1 that of on Live.

Also, you said 20x more played on live than P99 despite having 20 less years and esoteric knowledge under their belt. That means the average p99 chanter is a more veteran player with a higher risk threshold. I can’t believe I have to explain this but here we are.

It could also be the fact that enchanters are the best solo class in the game and this server has the concurrent player base of a Cheesecake Factory on Friday night.

It it makes you feel any better I have a Torp sham here and only a level 45 enchanter I gave up because it’s not my kind of character. Doesn’t mean the class isn’t objectively better. Just means it’s not for me.

[Toxigen]

loramin big mad he doesnt play enchanter

[loramin]

Or the majority of players in 1999-2002 had varying degrees of garbage ISP’s. Going LD means you need to get a rez, maybe a summon.

Every other soloing class faced the same challenge. By your logic Necros shouldn't have soloed in classic ... but of course they did, along with other solo classes. Meanwhile other "grouping classes" (Warriors, Clerics, etc.) did not magically become soloers here. Only Enchanters went from "mainly grouping, but able to solo" to "why on earth would this class group?" on P99.

I mean look at their epic, then look at the epics of actual soloing classes ... is the snake the epic of a soloing class?

Also, you said 20x more played on live than P99 despite having 20 less years and esoteric knowledge under their belt. That means the average p99 chanter is a more veteran player with a higher risk threshold.

Again, you need a P99 "risk threshold" to track Hate, or do something similar. You do not in any way need a risk threshold to try casting the spells on your list.

I gave up because it’s not my kind of character. Doesn’t mean the class isn’t objectively better. Just means it’s not for me.

This has nothing to do with which class is better here. I'll be the first to say that on P99 Enchanter is the most powerful soloing class (though I'd also say that Shaman are the better "all around" class).

What this has to do with is ...

loramin big mad he doesnt play enchanter

Almost this. It's more Loramin big mad he'll never get to play a classic Enchanter.

Look, Nilbog has done such an incredible job with this place, and I've gotten to re-live my classic experience all over again with "Loramin 2.0" (my live toon had the same name). But I'm greedy: I want to re-experience other classes I never got a chance to.

Druid? Check. Magician? Check. Cleric? Almost check (he's in his 50's).

All of them are just like I remember the class on live. Enchanter is the only class that isn't, and that means that if I play an Enchanter here I'm not re-living live ... I'm playing with the cheat mode on.

I don't want the cheat mode, I want the classic Enchanter, and I swear if Nilbog brings it back I'll main Enchanter in Green 2.0.

[Snaggles]

It’s pretty easy, don’t stack charisma gear. Or don’t debuff your pet. Or don’t give it -MR gear. Or just don’t charm stuff; the vendors still sell animations and the kunark one still drops.

Or just whine on the forums that your free nostalgia is only 95% accurate.

[loramin]

It’s pretty easy, don’t stack charisma gear. Or don’t debuff your pet. Or don’t give it -MR gear. Or just don’t charm stuff; the vendors still sell animations and the kunark one still drops.

The -MR part classic players might not have known.

But as for all the rest ... again, it's idiotic to think live Enchanterss didn't try casting the spells on their list, or didn't try wearing Charisma gear (when Verant themselves told them to).

[Snaggles]

The -MR part classic players might not have known.

But as for all the rest ... again, it's idiotic to think live Enchanterss didn't try casting the spells on their list, or didn't try wearing Charisma gear (when Verant themselves told them to).

What makes you think I was talking about players 20 years ago? Only one person here is crying that charm lasts too long. I suggested that person not debuff the pet so charm breaks more frequently. Maybe I should put these protips in my forum signature.

[shovelquest]

We split the pond in MM up into 4 camps on live.

The logic about nerfing charm to emulate classic would be like saying we need to change all the spawn times in the game to be three times as long to emulate crowded zones.


But as for all the rest ... again, it's idiotic to think live Enchanterss didn't try casting the spells on their list, or didn't try wearing Charisma gear (when Verant themselves told them to).

They nerfed kiting, not charming on live: why?

Because nobody who played a enchanter knew how to charm/mez on live. It was a class never in any game ever before.

Mez? Wtf is mez? Nobody understood it. there were no timers, gaming was not even close to as hard core as it is now. Nobody ever played a game where you would "mez enemies while you kill the others" before.

My friend called me on the phone to tell me about this thing he saw, "this guy yelled TRAIN and then like a million gnolls came!"

This game was so new players didn't even know what a train was lol

Nobody would "time" mez and do data sheets on it for christ sake we were fighting with quested weapons from pre kunark for gods sake.

We were exploring. Adventuring. Being amazed at the first 3D open world fantasy game in history.

Aint nobody got time to min/max in a game when you would loose weeks worth of work from one death because EXP was so hard to get.

I cried. CRIED. when I lost my +7 charisma torch my necromancer used into his 20's!

Find one forum post about someone talking about charming from back then, you wont. Because nobody was on that level yet.

My static groups enchanter would chain AOE stun on bad pulls in lower guk!

It was like 5 years into p99 that charming became OP on these servers - because of TECMOS youtube tutorials.

Expecting keyboard turning, mostly kids, snail level APM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actions_per_minute#:~:text=Actions%20per%20minute% 2C%20abbreviated%20to,can%20perform%20in%20a%20min ute.) gamers to manage charm (with no pet windows of any type) and mez, when they still had like 1 cloth item equipped at 50 is what's 'idiotic'.

If you were on the level of being in a guild where someone was able to use charm successfully, then you were like top 1% of everquest players. Im sorry but that's just a fact. And those people did not share info.

[Duik]

Mez? Wtf is mez? Nobody understood it. there were no timers, gaming was not even close to as hard core as it is now. Nobody ever played a game where you would "mez enemies while you kill the others" before.


Our live chanter in our static IRL friends group fully understood the mez mechanic. War mnk rog clr enc wiz.
On a multi pull in LGuk (for example) Chanter would call the next target. War would taunt a few times before engaging. War only at first then after agro build monk and rog would join.
We werent in a large guild and didnt frequent the class boards, although the rog went to safehouse? near the end.
Wiz was finisher and evac. Stuns roots and snares as needed. Cleric was boxed by the monk player so didnt really cast much apart from IVU and buffage. No paci or stuns etc, would defo fail a boxing test here lmao.
Enc never charmed. He had cha prioritized but lack of mobs made our slow but safe exp method good enuf.
We would be chumps here and now though.

People knew things but chewing through mobs faster would have just been more of a waste (there wasnt any). Groups everywhere from BR, gargoyles to ass/sup pulling only a couple static mobs with the odd pather depending on where you were.
I dont know if our chanter would have charmed or not. He did chat with some Southern Armada guild peeps so maybe learnt something about it from them.
I think we thort comfortable XP was better than min/max.
I was pretty clueless. I had a flux staff and didnt use it to reset GCD. What the hell was that!
What a newb.

[shovelquest]

Enc never charmed. He had cha prioritized but lack of mobs made our slow but safe exp method good enuf.
We would be chumps here and now though..

This too, like there was no reason to go through mobs fast enough to make charm even necessary because of the crowding.

If anyone ever charmed anything Im sure someone would be like WTF are you doing! (hmm that reminds me I seem to remember even on p99 clerics getting bothered that I'd be charming in MM, before everyone and their mother had a level 60 enchanter on p99)

So like, yeah, charming even here wasn't nearly as popular as it is now for years.

In a time period where asking someone to help you get your corpse meant risking giving them all your items, I just dont see people going into dungeons and charming for so many reasons other than charm not being classic in its current form.

I'm confident that way less people were charming strictly because we just didn't know how to play that well.

I played on Rallos Zek, and you could charm players. I definitely charmed them with my level 12 enchanter.

Also fearing was so funny, that was the best. Fearing someone that was talking trash. Watching them just dart off in a random direction was the best. Especially if they were sitting because they just pop up and run :D

But charming a mob, I have no memory of anyone doing that.

I think we thort comfortable XP was better than min/max.

At the time, I thought we were min/maxing :D :p

[loramin]

They nerfed kiting, not charming on live: why?

Because nobody who played a enchanter knew how to charm/mez on live. It was a class never in any game ever before.

I love the logic here: Verant didn't nerf Enchanters, so our emulator made decades later can't possibly have the wrong numbers for charm resists/channeling/etc. :rolleyes:

It couldn't possibly be that Enchanters just weren't as powerful on live now could it ...

If anyone ever charmed anything Im sure someone would be like WTF are you doing! (hmm that reminds me I seem to remember even on p99 clerics getting bothered that I'd be charming in MM, before everyone and their mother had a level 60 enchanter on p99)

So like, yeah, charming even here wasn't nearly as popular as it is now for years.

Again, that couldn't possibly be because charm actually was riskier on live, now could it?

[shovelquest]

I love the logic here: Verant didn't nerf Enchanters, so our emulator made decades later can't possibly have the wrong numbers for charm resists/channeling/etc. :rolleyes:

Well, that isn't my logic.

My logic is that charming was so non-existent that it did not get hit with the nerf bat.

We were too busy kiting mobs thinking Druids were the most OP class.

Again, that couldn't possibly be because charm actually was riskier on live, now could it?

Of course I am saying it was riskier, but not because it had shorter durations.

It was riskier because if I died I lost a months worth of work. And pbobuly my corpse.

[loramin]

I feel like any response I give would just be going in circles, so I'll just say this: no Enchanter on this server need worry about my quest for more classic P99 Enchanters/charm.

For one thing, Nilbog has about a 0% chance of listening to me. I've been "whining" about wanting this to be more classic for years, and it has never changed a thing.

Heck, even when we have direct evidence that something needs fixing (eg. the channeling rate; go check the bug thread if you don't believe me), Nilbog hasn't addressed it ... although he hasn't addressed a lot of things lately, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

But even if he did suddenly decide tomorrow "Enchanters/charm should be more classic here" ... it's not going to wreck things. If Enchanters here solo 90% and group 10%, nothing Nilbog will ever do is going to change that back to live (where the ratio was much closer to 10%/90%). Maybe we'll get 15%/85% or 20%/80%.

At best, it will make the most OP class on the server a little bit more challenging to play ... and quite frankly "the powers that be nerfing the most powerful class" is, well, classic as fuck :)

[Duik]

I recall selling some neg MR shoulders from blackburrow to someone after OOC asking why would anyone want neg MR to wear +5 str is good i spose but... Maybe they used it for pets. I didnt ask and they didnt say. They bought a few pairs too.

[shovelquest]

I went to the earliest casters realm archive I could in the wayback, 2001, it had a complete spell list for enchanter with comments, I checked durations, and noticed all of them were 8 minuets, except dictate.

Then I got totally carried away and highlighted and bolded the best parts. Fun read if anything. But... it does have some interesting numbers...

I think you can definitely get a consensus for some max duration differences, also some discussion about level caps, and an amazing update I hope we can get at the bottom.

It also has a lot of mentions about how much of an impact high CHA has, with high 150's being what the most confident players seem to average, so at 255 you may get frequent max durations but it's hard to say from any of these comments because it's safe to say they were all pretty much trashcans.

Here's the enchanter section of CR from 2000 (https://web.archive.org/web/20021017112546/http://eq.crgaming.com/menu/enchanter.asp)

Max Durations:

I'm not sure where our numbers come from, since we just had a change in some of them, surely there is a thread/wiki about it? Idk, well here's some info from the first few months of 2001!

Charm
Casters Realm: Max Duration: 8 minutes
p99: Duration 4.6 minutes L12 to 20.5 minutes L65

Beguile:
Casters Realm: Max Duration: 8 minutes
p99: Duration 8.2 minutes L24 to 20.5 minutes L65

Cajoling Whispers
Casters Realm: Max Duration: 8 minutes
P99: Duration 12.7 minutes L39 to 20.5 minutes L65

Comments

I highlighted anything that stood out related to durations in bold. The first one mentions the level cap, and corroborates the 8 minuet duration by calling it pretty hot and tempting. It does imply that number hits enough for it to feel phat. 90's kids know what that means.

ALLURE LIMITS, By Matil trynstum (3/7/2001)

Allure cannot be cast on mobs over 51st level. Boltran's can be cast on higher level mobs, but is still random duration. You might get a phat pet for 8 minute. You might get a phat pet for 4 seconds. You are guarenteed 48 seconds. I think for a level 60 spell the duration should be longer, but you stop using allure at lvl 53, period.

:D lol @ PVP charm.

CHARM FOR PVP, By Roderin (3/16/2001)

I had heard that charming other pc's in PvP was nerfed, but back when it wasn't my place for Duels was in WK, where the entire fight would consist of Tash, Charm, run your new pet out to the river and set him to guard.

At least we know it lasts long enough to drown a player :o

Next we get the first few minuets comment.

HARMING AN NPC'S SUMMONED PET, By Nybble of eci (1/28/2001)

I have found a GREAT way to use charm safely. I was in Befallen with a group, and we were overrun by some mobs. I cast Charm on a neophyte's pet and had it kill the neophyte. When charm broke a few minutes later, the pet simply killed itself. I guess it tried to go back to being the neophyte's pet, and since he was dead, it poofed.
I'm sorry if this is common knowledge, but I have never heard this mentioned before as a strategy. It makes charm nearly 100% safe, if you can find an NPC-summoned pet.

Someone casually using charm to great effect on the orc hill. The joy those newbies must have felt this day...

ENCHANTERS RULE!, By Congdon (1/28/2001)

By far I've had the most fun out of all my classes with enchanters. At 16 I was sitting at the orc hill charming orc's, and making them just run around killing other orcs; while all the newbies that didnt catch on would shout "Omg! Orcs are fighting amongst each other".

I think this one describes what I believe was called Charm Kiting which is mentioned in this 2002 CR enchanter strategy guide. (https://web.archive.org/web/20021016110110/http://eq.crgaming.com/editorials/xymarra.asp#charm)

It also implies that charm doesn't last that long, but lasts long enough to get a spec to 5%

NO BRAINER 35 TO 47 IF YOU DONT' GET BORED..., By Telish (1/28/2001)

1) Go to oasis, get sowed, put air elemental up 2) Pull 4 specs, as they approach the shoreline charm one, make sure it's not in the water when you cast it... 3) Specs will cast wimpy DD lifetap on you, your pet will get pissed and attack the other 3 specs... 4) Watch your pet's health, when he's at 1/5 health or a bit less, cast invis, run yer ass off making sure your 4 specs (three full health one almost dead) are in a tight group... 5) Pick a full health spec and charm it, he'll get pissed at the 2 other full heatlh specs when they cast wimpy DDs on you, and so they fight.. 6) Your 1/5 health spec will still be coming after you. Root him, nuke him, leave his corpse for later... 7) Check your new pets health, he should be dying up pretty nice by now.. Invis to break charm.. 8) Rinse Repeat Also: Always dispense clarity to the zone, specially if you need sows etc, it may get annoying but you'll never be slow or low hit points... Also: You will go crazy doing this, especially during hell levels.. Get yer lazy self out of oasis and go do lower guk or something.. This is a piss poor strategy to levelling in my opinion -- tho very fast. Enchanters are meant for groups... A good enchanter, specially at high levels, is almost always the difference between life and death in the high level dungeons.. Oh yeah, and always use charm, not the upgrades... Doesn't last as long, but it lasts long enuff for what you are doing.. You wont be able to get the other upgrades off by the time your spec is in range and the spell hits.. This you can kite the spec and charm without it ever so much as scratching you... If you call getting doubled for 96 a scratch... Telish Khaotic 50 ench VZ

:D :D :D More PVP charm!

THE BEST ENCHANTER SPELL, By Bababooey (1/28/2001)

The best enchanter spell or any spell is the charm spells.But the reall good thing is a PvP or PvP teams server u can charm other people.Just wanted to let u guys know that is u dont like a Pc charm and chuck his ass of a cliff. thats my 2c

Another few minuets duration.

CHARM VS. ANIMATIONS, By Synge drakesphyre (1/28/2001)

I'm currently a lvl 13 Enchanter and was quite excited to finally have charm at my disposal. When 12 I headed into Lava Storm and tried my animation vs blue con mobs. The Animation died fairly quickly and I wound up taking a lot of damage and so was down resting for extended periods of time. (yes, I used debuffs on mobs and buffs on my pet) I switched to Charm and grabbed Fire Drakes and even white con Rock Dervs and did very well. I hunted near Najena so I could zone when required. Lava Storm was fine but with all of the Fire Elementals jumping me, I left and hit South Ro. In S Ro I charm desert Madmen and they kick ass. I am VERY happy when I get a casting madman as he seems to be able to drop the mobs the best. Here's my usual strategy.. 1) Select target for charm and open up with Tashan (ALWAYS use Tashan) then charm 2) Send pet against a nearby mob (it iws best to select two mobs when preparing to charm so you don't waste time running around looking for something to kill). If the mob is white/yellow vs your blue madman, debuff it. 3) If the pet is low on health after the battle, have it guard somewhere, wander off a little, invis and then kill it.. Two sets of XP for the price of one! (sending the pet against a spider for the poison is even better since after the spider dies you are fighting a mob with a poison DoT on it already) I have found that when charm breaks, recasting charm fails a lot faster so I'd advise tashan then re-charm (if you can). I had a RED Dry Bones pet in S Ro last for 3 mins (charmed him by accident during a fight) and yellow Dry Bones and Ghoul pets last for several battles. Always stay near the zone into Oasis for when charm breaks at a bad time.

Is this next guy saying people were DPS racing for exp from mobs? That's amazing if that was the culture on whatever server this was.

It also mentions at least one of these charms lasting "a good 2 minuets".

CHARMING IS FUN!!!!, By Calinis dreammaker (1/28/2001)

Here is a little something I found out one time. I was in HHP fighting orcs by myself without a group. I noticed I was getting only 1 of 10 kills. This sucked. So, I sat back and watched everyone fight for a couple minutes and found out that the Orc Fanatics hit for 44dmg max. I thought fast and acted. I charmed a Fanatic and he stayed charmed for a good two mins. Now I was getting 8 of 10 kills. I had him attack everything that moved(NPC). HAHA, when I was finished with him, I just took him to the ol' Captain and had him attack. Needless to say I ran to zone came back and all the people there weren't upset with me. :) Calinis Dreammaker Povar BTW, when your pet comes to attack after the charm, quickly cast mesmerize. It works wonders!

This is just a good story.

BEGUILE IS A GOOD WAY TO STOP KS, By Qinya (1/28/2001)

A friend of mine was try to get a dink from Dvinn but people were ks her, so she starteed charming him. This allowed her to do three things: first the wizard and the mage would alway waste a lot of mana try to nuke him. Second she was able to move dvinn to the enterance of crushbone where she could escape if she got in trouble. Third she would cas a dot on Dvinn and the recharm him. This allowed her to do the most damage. By using charm she did not get ks after that and she finally got her dink. The best party was she taught the people trying to ks her a lesson about the true power of enchanters.

This one is crazy, wtf?

CHARM / BEGUILE, By Nallatikie nomanna - xegony (1/28/2001)

Certainly you can use any spell for a parlor trick. The charm serious has serious uses in the field. I dont even bother with pets most of the time anymore, because when the group pulls a few, i ae mez the lot of them, i charm the lowst and have it assist my tank. I then watch the whole train for attack movement. If the train starts to attack again, i remez. I have the whole group attack a single target at a time and have my pet assist until it is either dead or the train is. As an answer to the person who wrote that the charm series is buggy. The reason your pet did not attack its intended target is because they will not commit blatent suicide. If you charm a green or a low blue and tell it to attack a red, it will not do so. It will act as you described. Good Luck to all of you out there, ours is a difficult job, especially when no one lets us perform it (they dont understand ae mez and /assist on the main tank) Nallatikie Nomanna

This one points out that the pets taunt and get agro. Which they do on live, but not on p99. It also does say charisma is a big effect on charm (this is not the first time that's mentioned, why did p99 change that?).

AGGRO NOT BAD
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2001
I have 2 regular enchanters that I group with regularly and this spell is not quite a super-mega taunt. When the spell breaks any good fighter who has a high taunt can get the monster off in 1-3 rounds of melee combat. 2 rounds being the usual amount of time, 1 and 3 more rare and happening an equal number of times. Also, Charisma makes all the differnce to enchanters, you won't need all the extra mana from INT as your spells will hold a lot longer.

OK this one is funny @loramin :p He says with 156 Cha charm lasts "all day long" which got me like this. (https://media1.tenor.com/m/6SQeBKCMrqQAAAAd/vince-mcmahon-wwe.gif)

But then notice, what he describes "all day long" :D About the length of a fight before breaking it and killing it. (https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExbGNmeDBjcjJ6NHdhb3g5Zzh5NWdxZ2p rbTRpaWQzcXFkcWlndWt4dCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/RlO3bvMJyz3L4vGKsx/giphy.webp)

ERY PLEASED WITH THIS SPELL
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2001
With a mere 156 charisma, I've found this spell just lasts all day long. This weekend I used beguile a lot, leveled up to 39, and used this one a whole lot more. In dozens of charms, I had one instant break and one or two resists; every other time it lasted the length of the fight, and I was able to break it at my leisure with invis. In certain instances this is better than mez for group crowd control. One good tactic is to mez the group, charm one your group isn't hitting, then have your pet attack a mezed mob. Immediately switch the pet's target to your group's target. Now your pet and the first one you sicced it on are dealing damage, and are just as out of the fight as if you had mezed them. Beautiful. Also charmed wizards can be a beautiful thing; I have a screenshot of a spiritish ancille getting level 39 for me ). Overall it's a very efficient way of getting your share of the damage in, and leaves you with plenty mana to celerity those tanks between fights when they ask for it every 8 min or so! ouch! Tabien 39 enchanter Quellious

one or two battles with 130 cha

TRY IT ON SONIC BATS IN SOLB
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2001
I have found that this spell is a great help when fighting the bats on solb - when the puller pulls 2-3 bats - use this spell and have it assist the puller and mez the other one- be warned that you need to have a charisma over 130 to hold em for a good length of time for at least one or two battles - have fun.

I also notice a lot of talk about level caps:

WHAT LEVEL IS TOO HIGH?, By Motley (1/28/2001)

Being a level 37 enc, going into a duel with a 39 SK, I figured beguile was my best shot at winning the match. To my suprise, I got the message 'Too high level to charm' or some such. I guess the cap isn't 39, or at least it isn't including 39.


The level caps make me very concerned, was that a thing in classic? When was that added? This is 2001, so perhaps there was a charm nerf/update/patch at some point that shortened durations? Maybe added level caps?

Were level caps always a thing? They are super annoying on live in the velious expansion. It's not much of an issue in Kunark though.

I feel like more than a few are mentioning that the cap is not as high as CR says it is, implying maybe there were no caps (CR does list level caps on the spell pages).

WHAT LEVEL IS TOO HIGH?, By Motley (1/28/2001)

Being a level 37 enc, going into a duel with a 39 SK, I figured beguile was my best shot at winning the match. To my suprise, I got the message 'Too high level to charm' or some such. I guess the cap isn't 39, or at least it isn't including 39.

This one is for Begile, which says the limit is 35.

THIS SPELL CAN CHARM CRITTERS IN EXCESS OF 35TH, By Rayn d'mente of bristlebain (1/28/2001)

Fighting specs has become my cottage way of breaking out of level 35. Occasionally something bad happens and multiple specs charge me. Many times I have been able to charm Yellow con specs with this spell, which, of course, means that the spec is 36th or above. I suspect the problem that was encountered by the person trying to charm the merchant was because those sort of NPCs have insane magic resist. -Rayn d'Mente "Are you going to believe me or your own eyes?"

DOES THIS GET 35'S?, By Tabien (1/28/2001)

The max level is listed as 35, but when trying to charm a merchant (something I've wanted to do since the first one I tried to talk to without hitting "enter"...unfortunately there was an "a" in the phrase!) the other day. I know for certain he is level 35, and he resisted four straight times... and he conned blue. I've never been resisted by a blue more than once, so I wonder if merchants have far higher MR than others? Or is 35 just out of the level range for Beguile? The message was the normal "Your target has resisted the Beguile spell" one; nothing in there about being too high for the spell. Tabien 37 enchanter Quellious

CHARM, By Canar the 22 enchanter (1/28/2001)

The reason is says the mob is too high to charm is because charm will not work on any mobs lvl 24 or higher. The lizzy might have been only 1 level lower then you so you couldnt charm it

SOMETIMES YOU CANNOT USE CHARM, By Leonheart (1/28/2001)

Well I am level 25 and fighting in CT, when I try to charm blue Liz (sent, defender). It give message of something like "the mob is too high level to be charmed". So it might suggest we can only use Beguile??

VERY BUGGY?, By Harach (1/28/2001)

A lot of times I charm (or beguile) a monster or whatever, and then tell him to attack another - He'll run back and forth, not doing anything. Once the monster I told to attack dies from something else, it will come back to its senses and come back to me. Charm may be bugged in dungeons and similar places. I mean, if I mess around with it in the Qeynos newbie area, it works fine. Most other places it messes up, though.

It's still OP!! :D

I SECOND THE CB IDEA., By Quist majere (1/28/2001)

I was charming orcs once I got the spell. It was so funny watching the Lord Take on the entire throne room, and he won. Free exp. I was to try Dvinn when i hit 24 just to repay him and the orcs for the number of times he killed me.

The tale of the Aviaks Adventure :p

NOT ULTRA MEGA TAUNT, By Zaltik squeaky (1/28/2001)

along the lines of the previous post: I charmed an aviak guard in lake rathe after we pulled too much. He smacked up the other two guards, and once the were dead he began to walk towards the coastline. Long story short, he swam out into the middle of the sea and we never saw him again. No Ultra Mega-Taunt for me!


LEVEL CAP AT LEAST 46
Posted: Monday, October 29, 2001
I charmed an even con Tatterback ape in BW yesterday at level 46, so cap is wrong, should be at least 46.


Oh and this, we must find out if this is true!

This spell may not be used on players on PVP servers, but will work in duels.

Well, from all of this, Id say that 3-4 mins would be the average low/high and 5-8 would be max Cha and 1-2 mins would be the low cha.

That would certanly change the way people used charm.. a bit..

Anyway...

#MakeDuelingPlayersCharmmable

[Duik]

Yo shovel. Read most of ya wall of text good find.
Fucking lolocaust @ charm a player run them to the river and let them drown. Fucking gold.
Lasts at least as long it takes drown...
Id be dirty i reckon. After I finished LMFAO at myself.

[Jimjam]

Worth noting crgaming had a database issue. Many older comments got lost and then restored with the date 28th January 2001.

I love reading old casters realm posts. Sometimes i steal them to use as my own ��

[Toxigen]

nice finds shovel, that was fun to read

[loramin]

Wall of text


https://media.tenor.com/F--EY4ULc3IAAAAM/aplausos-clapped.gif

I think this proves at least one thing I've been saying: the idea that Enchanters were too afraid to try using their spell list on live was complete and utter BS :D

As for the rest, I'd love to see charm durations match classic evidence (although I'd imagine Nilbog would want more evidence, as just a few data points can be suspect ... classic reporters weren't the most realiable). And I'd love to see the "pets can't attack reds" stuff (that Jimjam recently discovered also).

Really, I'd welcome anything that helps make P99 pass my "Street Fighter 2 test" ;)

[shovelquest]

https://media.tenor.com/F--EY4ULc3IAAAAM/aplausos-clapped.gif

I think this proves at least one thing I've been saying: the idea that Enchanters were too afraid to try using their spell list on live was complete and utter BS :D

As for the rest, I'd love to see charm durations match classic evidence (although I'd imagine Nilbog would want more evidence, as just a few data points can be suspect ... classic reporters weren't the most realiable). And I'd love to see the "pets can't attack reds" stuff (that Jimjam recently discovered also).

Really, I'd welcome anything that helps make P99 pass my "Street Fighter 2 test" ;)

You're pretty good at database orginization, can you maybe make a page that tracks all the stuff about durrations, caps and even the pvp/duel stuff?

Also we should make a point of researching the "Super Mega Taunt" I'd like to know more about that.

It's mentioned in my post, but there were a few other posts about it I didn't copy and paste because I was falln' asleep at the wheel!

Had something to do with pet breaking, and mobs kept attacking it.

[Toxigen]

You're pretty good at database orginization, can you maybe make a page that tracks all the stuff about durrations, caps and even the pvp/duel stuff?

Also we should make a point of researching the "Super Mega Taunt" I'd like to know more about that.

It's mentioned in my post, but there were a few other posts about it I didn't copy and paste because I was falln' asleep at the wheel!

Had something to do with pet breaking, and mobs kept attacking it.

super mega taunt is prob tash lol

[loramin]

You're pretty good at database orginization, can you maybe make a page that tracks all the stuff about durrations, caps and even the pvp/duel stuff?

Also we should make a point of researching the "Super Mega Taunt" I'd like to know more about that.

It's mentioned in my post, but there were a few other posts about it I didn't copy and paste because I was falln' asleep at the wheel!

Had something to do with pet breaking, and mobs kept attacking it.

I don't know about databases, but we can certainly use a wiki page to coordinate/compile research. I already had a page started (https://wiki.project1999.com/Existing_Classic_Research_Topics) (for other topics), so to get things started I just added the charm topics, and a single quote as a "proof of concept". (BTW, it'd be great if we could get links for all your great work, so that, should this stuff ever get to Nilbog, he can reference it more easily).

Work is busy, so I don't have time to do more ATM, but I'll try to do more when I have time. Feel free to change anything (it's a wiki) ... and if it gets too busy we can always break out into sub-pages.

[shovelquest]

super mega taunt is prob tash lol

:D

(BTW, it'd be great if we could get links for all your great work, so that, should this stuff ever get to Nilbog, he can reference it more easily).

Im not sure how to edit the wiki, but I can look into that, but for now heres some helpful Enchanter CR links:

Cha affecting charm: https://web.archive.org/web/20031005231809/http://eq.crgaming.com/menu/enchanter.asp

Charisma: This affects amount you will be paid for goods by NPC merchants, and how much they will pay you. It also affects the saving throw on certain Bard and Enchanter spells (charms in particular). There is much debate over the true importance of Charisma for enchanters. It seems that the truly defining element which impacts on charm durations, mesmerise resists and other supposedly "charisma" based spells is actually the targets Magic Resistance. Some people claim that it makes a large difference. Studies run at Casters Realm have been inconclusive, so you may choose to say "better safe than sorry" and add some points at creation.


More charisma guides from the FAQ about enchanter:
https://web.archive.org/web/20031027025930/http://eq.crgaming.com/faq/faq.asp?Action=Show&Class=Enchanter

Q: I have been told that charisma is important for the enchanter. But other than getting 100 cha to get best prices from NPC what does Cha really do? And other than charms what spells does it effect? I heard it helps the color flux and Mez series, is this true?
A: Charisma is the base stat for secondary save throws on Charm Spells. It is thought to also affect mesmerises but this seems to be far more dependent on MR and Level.
The true impact of Charisma is still widely debated, and many Enchanters have decided it's usefulness is not as significant as many believe, opting for a higher HP and AC score instead.


Charm spell pages + comments with lots of info on duration
(many quotes from the OP at the top of page from these comments):

Charm
https://web.archive.org/web/20031209173250/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=38

Begile
https://web.archive.org/web/20031204162107/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=84

Cajoling
https://web.archive.org/web/20031204171450/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=121

Allure
https://web.archive.org/web/20040310043529/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=142

Boltrans
https://web.archive.org/web/20031019181423/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=170

Charm Strategy Guide, "It's True Power"
https://web.archive.org/web/20030715024026/http://eq.crgaming.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=6915

CHARM SOLOING - ITS TRUE POWER. - Haloface, Ayonae Ro
Everyone takes for granted our class' main power.

CHARMING.

I have always overlooked this spell as more of a hassle than anything. Charm, it breaks, you get the crap beaten out of you, you loose lots of mana, your group is angry etc. It can be a real headache. But, if done right, it can be a force to be reckoned with. Here's an example.

At lvl55, I am currently snooping around Sirren's Grotto. I love the zone, and for most people it is a real struggle, the mobs hit fast, the mobs hit hard. So.. I use this to my advantage. Right by the WW zone, there are 9 wulruses. They sit and spawn in pairs, and are spread far apart. The great thing is, is that they con indifferent to everyone. So I pop out of the zone, cast my jboots, zone back in. I change my INT gear for my CHA gear, bringing my CHA up to 220. This really isn't hard to do. To get a 7 piece jewellery set, costs somewhere in the region of 800pp. And then a crude stien, 15cha, like 20pp. Camp the +5 cha earrings in estate of unrest with ease, and of course our quest armour pieces, Incandescent, are also easy to get with great CHA. And let's not forget, we already have a 50CHA buff in our spell line up, and the lost INT can easily be made up with our int and gift series of spells.

So after getting a decent cha, I buff myself, our shielding spell, my highest rune (makesure to tack a few stacks with you, as without the assistance of a healer we tend to hit the dust fast), and then begin.

First off I charm one of the wulruses, the other will aggro, which is when you charmed one will attack it. Move down the hall, and let them duke it out. First thing you will want to do is tash the mob, slow, DoT (which is a great debuff too), and finally cripple. The mob should have the str and agi of a drunk gnome, which, although not greatly having an affect on melee output, really increases the damage done by your charmed mob. After then, I simply buff my mob with a haste spell. Seen as this is velious, the mobs in SG do tend to have a very large amount of hp, in the region of 10 - 12k which is a serious amount. So the fight should last around 2 minutes, which is precisely why you need a decent CHA. And sometimes with a good CHA, the charm will not stand the duration of the fight, and in that case, you'll have 2 very angry wulruses doubling on you for 150, and stunning. DO NOT try to be a hero, even if one of the mobs have 10hp left. ZONE! The zone is 2 feet away, and it is amazing how fast these guys can chew you up and spit you out.

Anyways...
After slowly diminishing the wulruses spawn, you may have a long time to wait. The spawn time is in the area of 20 - 30mins. In that case, take your new found friend to the end of the tunnel, where you will pop out near the 'Well'. Here, is where the Enthrall's hang out. They have more hp, hit harder, and can cast. BUT, unlike the wulruses, carry loot. Commonly a quest gem, and rarely (although that is still not that rare) a decent piece of Netted Kelp.

There should be 2 spawns that hang out by the Well, and one tends to wander. When he is far away from the Well, on his rounds, pull him with a tash and have that /pet attack hotkey rdy. Do the same spells on the mob as you do for the wulruses, and he becomes easier than any other mob. All in all, a great zone. Great for us, seen as every other class simply lacks the power to bring down a mob there. Root bombing would dry up mana, pets here are suicidal, and a mob here can never be solo'd melee'd.

Trust the power of our CHARMS, it can be our best friend. Now I just can't wait for Dictate, and test my power out in Western Wastes :)

Strategy Submitted on: Monday, December 17, 2001

Downside is, I don't think wayback machine links stay reliable over time, but.. it's a start!

I will say, there is not one comment that I've found on this site that disputes charms lasting a few minuets.

If this endeavor does result in a massive charm nerf, to all the enchanters out there this is all I have is this to say about that. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivKf9QyRQ_U)

[Jimjam]

(BTW, it'd be great if we could get links for all your great work,

I find the best way to ‘scroll’ comments on crgaming is to go through different timestamps as archive as obviously the front page of comments on a popular spell line / discussion changes with time and it is rare that page 2 ever hits an archive.

Often the top and bottom level versions of a spell include generic discussion of that category of spell too.

[Toxigen]

so enchanters were charming in SG in 2001

time for an enchanter, loramin

cmon buddy you can do it

[loramin]

so enchanters were charming in SG in 2001

time for an enchanter, loramin

cmon buddy you can do it

The fact that Enchanters were charming (including doing serious stuff, eg. SG) has been a key part of my "thesis". It's like I keep saying: live players absolutely were using their spell list, and not just in the stupid ways that people here keep imagining.

But also ... in spite of the fact they clearly could solo ... Enchanters predominantly grouped. (Unlike Necros/Mages/Druids/etc., who also joined groups, but were known for predominantly soloing.)

Maybe you all have different memories of live, but I recall the expectation that every group would have a tank, a Cleric, and an Enchanter. You settled for another healer if you had to, and you settled for a Shaman if you had to, but an Enchanter was the standard. As a Shaman I distinctly remember being turned down for a Chanter many times (as I couldn't mez) ... does this not sound familiar to anyone?

If all the Enchanters (who again, clearly had the option of soloing) weren't choosing to group ... then where were all these grouping Enchanters coming from?

[shovelquest]

The only rason any of you have an enchanter is because of youtube.

That's the keystone to unlocking the knowledge of how to charm.

Nobody who is playing an enchanter today hasn't watched a video about every camp they ever did.

As if Im going to hear that charm is powerful, then go use it successfully. No way. Im going back to grouping after 1 death.

By I'm, I mean 99.9% of players.

[Toxigen]

The only rason any of you have an enchanter is because of youtube.

That's the keystone to unlocking the knowledge of how to charm.

Nobody who is playing an enchanter today hasn't watched a video about every camp they ever did.

As if Im going to hear that charm is powerful, then go use it successfully. No way. Im going back to grouping after 1 death.

By I'm, I mean 99.9% of players.

naw that aint true

I had never played EQ before p99 and I learned the hard way.

Then Nybras showed me the end game ropes.

[Vexenu]

I think the reality is somewhere in the middle: charming was more difficult on live, mostly due to a combination of more frequent charm breaks and less effective channeling skill. But there were players successfully utilizing charm back then. It was just much riskier than on P1999 (especially with worse hardware and internet) and therefore wasn't nearly as common as it is here, and that isn't just due to the knowledge gap. Charming here already requires a lot of attention and care, and on the live servers it probably felt like walking on a knife's edge the whole time, with very frequent charm breaks that were difficult to recover from, making the process dangerous and inefficient unless you were very skilled and attentive. That being the case, it would be far easier and preferable for most Enchanters to just group for XP, which most of them obviously did as we all remember.

[shovelquest]

naw that aint true

I had never played EQ before p99 and I learned the hard way.

Then Nybras showed me the end game ropes.

Are you the average though?

or are you in the .1% of players.

I think the reality is somewhere in the middle: charming was more difficult on live, mostly due to a combination of more frequent charm breaks and less effective channeling skill. But there were players successfully utilizing charm back then. It was just much riskier than on P1999 (especially with worse hardware and internet) and therefore wasn't nearly as common as it is here, and that isn't just due to the knowledge gap. Charming here already requires a lot of attention and care, and on the live servers it probably felt like walking on a knife's edge the whole time, with very frequent charm breaks that were difficult to recover from, making the process dangerous and inefficient unless you were very skilled and attentive. That being the case, it would be far easier and preferable for most Enchanters to just group for XP, which most of them obviously did as we all remember.

Yeah this pretty much is what i think. I mean lets not forget I and many were playing full screen UI, my PC was not a gaming pc, so framerate was always an issue in fullscreen.

I aint gonna be stunning and charming anything, my gear was trash too and I thought I was pretty good at eq :p

[shovelquest]

Check out these posts! (also maybe screenshots are best for the wiki for these, because wayback links cadn be unreliable IMO, I can supply both though! But ill add screenshots for relevant posts).

But here's some great stuff:

https://i.imgur.com/rCUFG0F.png

[loramin]

I think it's safe to say that, on live or here, everyone was looking for the fastest way to level. Death was scary on both servers, but that didn't stop people from trying new techniques.

As a simple example, I had a Bard friend (IRL) and I remember watching him learn this crazy "swarm kiting" thing that he discovered on the Bard forum. I remember him dying plenty, at first ... but that was not enough to scare him off. He and plenty of other Bards (with good Internet connections) all picked up the technique, because it promised the one thing we all wanted: levels (and AAs soon after).

I think the reality is somewhere in the middle

100%. Look, I'm arguing that Charm should be harder, which puts me in the extreme 0.001% of P99 players :). But at the same time, I don't want to "nerf Charm into oblivion": it should be viable on P99! If Enchanters weren't charming on P99 (in greater numbers than on live, due to greater knowledge) the emulator would also fail my "Street Fighter" test.

I'm not arguing for the end of charming or anything close ... I'm just saying, we have an emulator based on a game that we don't know the exact numbers for. Based on the "Street Fighter test", it seems we got those numbers wrong somehow ... not a lot, but enough that something clearly "smells" wrong.

We just need to adjust those numbers a bit to have an emulator that more closely matches live.

[Jimjam]

When luclin fresh dropped i took an enchanter to paludal caverns to xp on the rogues there and the reports on the orcs and sisters feel much more like my experiences i remember than my more recent experiences mucking around with low level enchanters on p99.

Out of era anecdote, so not worth the keys i pressed, but just wanted to mention as a segue into saying how freaking cool Yelloweyes the owlbear in PC was.

[loramin]

Im not sure how to edit the wiki, but I can look into that

Formatting things with the wiki syntax can be a little awkward at times, but editing overall is simple:

1. Create an account (https://wiki.project1999.com/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Main+Page&type=signup)

2. Login (if creating the account doesn't do that automatically)

3. Go to https://wiki.project1999.com/Classic_Research

4. Click "Edit" at the top

5. Go nuts :)

If you want to make new pages, it's a little backwards. First you create a link on an existing page (eg. [[My New Page]]), then you click that link (which will be red because the page doesn't exist), and then you edit the new page the same as any other.

But again, when I have time I'll try and tidy things up a bit (eg. maybe make some custom tags for easier formatting).

When luclin fresh dropped i took an enchanter to paludal caverns to xp on the rogues there and the reports on the orcs and sisters feel much more like my experiences i remember than my more recent experiences mucking around with low level enchanters on p99.

Out of era anecdote, so not worth the keys i pressed, but just wanted to mention as a segue into saying how freaking cool Yelloweyes the owlbear in PC was.

:D

[shovelquest]

damn look at this ad this ad is going onto the wiki page of charm durations 4 sure.

https://i.imgur.com/xMwZPrt.png

[Snaggles]

naw that aint true

I had never played EQ before p99 and I learned the hard way.

Then Nybras showed me the end game ropes.

Agreed. I got my ench into the low 50’s without a YouTube video.

[shovelquest]

This is fantastic, if your melee DPS is going afk, just charm them :D

https://i.imgur.com/NnqZq12.png

Also the bonus tip in this post on the lesson about how to get someone to duel you :p

I love the idea of upsetting someone, just so you can force them to work for you with enchanter powers.

That is true, evil enchanter. No wonder they nerfed player charms :D

[shovelquest]

Some more random good ones about duration, cha, caps etc:

https://i.imgur.com/miAEGhc.png

https://i.imgur.com/8IahiqW.png

https://i.imgur.com/ly7sXXP.png

https://i.imgur.com/SQYhE5f.png

And this one as a reminder that most people were too afraid to charm :p

The consensus of all these comments is most enchanters would rather have the animation.

But that's not got anything to do with charm durrations, I'm just trying to win a petty argument :D

https://i.imgur.com/s1L9mJb.png

Lets get a 3 minuet average durration, with 8 minuet cap onto p99 LFG!

[loramin]

damn look at this ad this ad is going onto the wiki page of charm durations 4 sure.

https://i.imgur.com/xMwZPrt.png

SWG was actually a great game ... once SOE finally finished the basics of it. And to be clear, I'm not talking about the usual Verant stuff (eg. leaving PoM un-itemized for the first few months of Velious) ... I'm just talking about an "EQ at launch" level of quality.

The unfortunate part was that didn't happen until well over a year after they released it. I mean, FFS it was a Star Wars game, but Jedi were such an afterthought they didn't even get introduced until many months after launch ... and even then they required an insane amount of grinding.

(Imagine having to level your character to 60 with four classes ... you could change class in that game ... but it took an incredibly rare (think SWC or top-end raid loot) item to even tell you what one of those classes were ... and even if you somehow managed to acquire three of of those things, the last one you had to guess at ... and there were significantly more classes than in EQ!)

[Troxx]

Are you the average though?

or are you in the .1% of players.

Not a dig at anyone in particular but …

… 49% of people are below average
… most people are, in actuality, not smart or gifted

math statistics be math statistics and bell curves exist

[Penish]

Oh look, lolramin is the new DSM

Lol

[zelld52]

Shaman is the best all around class. If you don’t want to die, play shaman

[Duik]

Not a dig at anyone in particular but …

… 49% of people are below average
… most people are, in actuality, not smart or gifted

math statistics be math statistics and bell curves exist

This game is relatively simplistic so you dont need to be "ahead of the (bell) curve" to be successful. Sure, excelling at difficult things like actual math and being civil to each other requires higher levels.

But ya right. Most of us are just dumbarses. And I for one am happily ignorant of my stupidity.

[Crede]

These threads are so open ended, but if we're talking full BIS i think you could make the argument that a necro is the best overall class in the game once they have the gear to just face tank stuff. They can heal themselves & others, succor, rez, fd, 2x da, mez, charm, PL with fd, etc. just so many options and more useful in raids than enchanters.

[Jimjam]

These threads are so open ended, but if we're talking full BIS i think you could make the argument that a necro is the best overall class in the game once they have the gear to just face tank stuff. They can heal themselves & others, succor, rez, fd, 2x da, mez, charm, PL with fd, etc. just so many options and more useful in raids than enchanters.

Don’t forget necro pets can carry weapons from day 1 so can be outfitted with all sorts of extra abilities through proc weapons, recoverable too if you use charm.