World of Warcraft is the true spiritual successor to EverQuest.

[Wakanda]

This may seem like an inflammatory thread, but that's not my intent. I frequently see EQ players debating over what the true spiritual successor to EQ was or will be. Vanguard, Pantheon, M&M. But to me it's super obvious that the true spiritual successor is WoW.

Classic WoW has more in common with EverQuest than it does modern WoW. WoW was heavily inspired by EverQuest, with some of the top devs being former EQ players themselves. If you had a time machine, and you wanted to show some kid in 1999 what MMOs would be like in 25 years, you would almost certainly show them World of Warcraft.

Do you agree or disagree?

[magnetaress]

Voted mostly true. There's some caveats here butt WoW should never be dismissed. Drop into first person view from time to time and check out the vistas. It's got great feeling from It's OG days.

[Topgunben]

Should be an option for “bush burned the towers”

Now that I’m older, I understand why WOW defeated EQ handily. As a youngster, I could game for 10 hours straight on a Saturday or in the summer time. It didn’t bother me that I’d have to wait for an hour for a group to open up because I had all the time in the world.

Now I just want to jump in and play. I’m fine waiting for a couple minutes, but waiting an hour to get to the group I want to be in doesn’t work for me. EQ deaths probably are a little too punishing for the average casual. I don’t want to feel the need to do a CR before I go on a week long vacation because my corpse might pop.

Blizzard seemed to be able to tap into the best parts of EQ while dropping the worst parts. Admittedly taking away the punishing mechanics did take away some of the challenge and reward of achieving something, but I think Classic WOW was able to balance this as well as could reasonably been done.

Just my thoughts.

[Trexller]

WoW was designed from the ground up to appeal to the masses based on lowest common denominators as a cattle chute straight to the in-game cash shop

[Rygar]

If you are talking dopamine addiction most certainly. It was certainly watered down to appeal to the masses. The spirit of EQ for me is balance and challenge.

WoW did far better at raid encounters, if EQ did that from the start then near perfect game.

The whole question mark quest thing is ugh, and soloing to quest to max level felt less community driven. Every patch made the game easier because need to keep crybabies happy for subs.

[Pulgasari]

I'm not sure what the second expansion was about but Wrath was clearly Velious and Cata was clearly the elemental planes..

Why do I think Velious is north of Everfrost?

They also went to space later but there was less bitching about it.

[Swish]

How about them wow tokens tho

[magnetaress]

Just palling around the gnomeragon newbie area... it's something to explore, like EQ was. And see. WoW got too far away from its roots.

https://i.ibb.co/Q83cBPn/image.png (https://ibb.co/PTvYpc4)

Anyway wows biggest problem are its players not the game itself. It's players dont want to play an MMO anymore.

[Ciderpress]

If WoW hadn't been based on a well-established and beloved franchise (Warcraft), and was instead just a generic cartoony looking original mmo with the exact same mechanics, I'm not sure it would have been nearly as successful.

People are always like "Well see it killed EQ because of this feature or that feature" but they always leave out "oh also it's a WARCRAFT GAME"

[Ciderpress]

Also worth noting that this was peak blizzard. Not only did people love the Warcraft games, people were also obsessed with diablo (especially diablo 2) which came out a few years prior. So blizzard had a ton of good credit with the public when WoW was released, and a lot of people probably realized hey this whole mmo thing is fun, just cause it was new to them.

So no I don't think it's a successor to EQ. They took the formula and slapped an established IP into it that they knew would sell. Hardly surprised it did so well, but in a way that's because people already loved EQ and the original Warcraft games, not necessarily WoW on it's own merits.

[Salaryman]

I like wow, I am the King of IronForge, but the instanced bosses and lack of classes like bard and enchanter make this vote a no.

EQ was made by a company that thought they would go under after launch like Morrowind and Demon's Souls, you dont get quality and risk taking like that without those parameters happening.

Spiritual succesor to EQ: Darkfall Online.

[branamil]

Elden Ring is the true spiritual successor to EQ, because of it's brutal unforgiving nature, inaccessible lore, and unintuitive quests.

[Wakanda]

How about them wow tokens tho

How about them kronos though?

[Wakanda]

If WoW hadn't been based on a well-established and beloved franchise (Warcraft), and was instead just a generic cartoony looking original mmo with the exact same mechanics, I'm not sure it would have been nearly as successful.

People are always like "Well see it killed EQ because of this feature or that feature" but they always leave out "oh also it's a WARCRAFT GAME"

One of the big things for WoW's success was also the fact that it ran easily on any e-machine or cheap laptop. I spent all kinds of money trying to get EQ 2 to run decently on my PC and it never did. Was really frustrating too because back then, online shopping wasn't a big thing, so this involved driving all over to random "computer stores" to see if they had anything I could upgrade in my already fairly expensive gaming PC to see if it would make EQ 2 run better. Had same problem with Vanguard.

[Wakanda]

I like wow, I am the King of IronForge, but the instanced bosses and lack of classes like bard and enchanter make this vote a no.

EQ was made by a company that thought they would go under after launch like Morrowind and Demon's Souls, you dont get quality and risk taking like that without those parameters happening.

Spiritual succesor to EQ: Darkfall Online.

IDK if you can count Darkfall because this is the first time I've heard of it, and I have played almost every MMO on the market. If we were just talking about game design I would have said Rift because while it's like WoW, it is actually also very much like EQ in the sense that it actually did have support classes like bard and enchanter and they played critical roles in groups and raids. They also had Reavers which played similarly to Shadow Knights in EQ, and things like armor dye and housing (EQ 2, but still a sony concept). But because the game's success was so short lived, I can't really count it.

When I played WoW classic and P99 back to back the parallels became really obvious when it came to class design. Paladins felt like bards with their different auras that effected entire groups. Hybrids in general were subpar at everything. Warriors were the only tanks and scaled ridiculously well with gear (very similar to EQ). Priests were the only REAL healers, with druids and shamans feeling second rate comparatively. This made Priests feel like they were directly inspired by Clerics from EQ.

Enchanters being removed from the game? Not really. I feel like they made every class an Enchanter when WoW launched. I remember trying to piece together groups and raids based off of what classes had different CC than what we already had. I would also argue that Priest's mind control was because of charm in EQ. We've never seen mainstream MMOs afterwards really implement such a skill (at least to my knowledge).

But also the way the zones are designed in early WoW is VERY EQ inspired. Like having to wait at the docks to get on a tiny raft that will take me out to an island where I get quests reminds me of Toxxulia forest. The huge run that night elves have to make to get to the rest of the allied forces. Anytime I run through the wetlands, and see all kinds of dangerous high level mobs crossing the path in front of me, I have flashbacks to the run you make through the Karanas to get from Qeynos to Freeport. The ramp at the end of the Wetlands run (Dun Algaz) is almost certainly inspired by the ramp to Highpass.

Like there's so many other examples I could use.

I've played sooooo many MMOs and none of them had a start that was so obviously inspired by EQ other than WoW. Like yeah, I know retail isn't like that, but neither is EQ live, lol. Like Classic WoW has more in common with EQ than EQ live does.

[Wakanda]

Elden Ring is the true spiritual successor to EQ, because of it's brutal unforgiving nature, inaccessible lore, and unintuitive quests.

It's not even an MMO though. Like IDK how a mostly single player game can be compared to an MMO :p

[Wakanda]

If you are talking dopamine addiction most certainly. It was certainly watered down to appeal to the masses. The spirit of EQ for me is balance and challenge.

WoW did far better at raid encounters, if EQ did that from the start then near perfect game.

The whole question mark quest thing is ugh, and soloing to quest to max level felt less community driven. Every patch made the game easier because need to keep crybabies happy for subs.
This will sound crazy to most people, but I feel like the raids in early EQ were better than the raids in WoW. The adrenaline and excitement of zoning into dangerous zones like Plane of Fear and Plane of Hate etc. are something I can't describe as I've never experienced it in any other MMO. These intense raids that would have like 85-100+ people in it, and still wipe; it felt like a super epic undertaking, and high risk vs reward. I remember the first time I raided on P99 I was actually really confused. There was like 15 of us and I was wondering where the rest of the raid was at, or if we were going to cancel it, and then we zoned in and completely dominated the content. IDK if this is because P99 is scaled wrong, or if modern hardware and knowledge have just trivialized the experience, but it wasn't fun for me at all.

I still never quest on classic WoW btw. I always grind and I get a ton of epics and gold by doing so and out-level all of my friends (granted I know all of the good spots). I passionately hate leveling through the quest system, as do most players, apparently. Which is why a lot of my friends on WoW exclusively level through the dungeon system :eek: like if some people like quests, that's fine, I get it. But like.... it's so repetitive and redundant.

[Wakanda]

Just palling around the gnomeragon newbie area... it's something to explore, like EQ was. And see. WoW got too far away from its roots.

https://i.ibb.co/Q83cBPn/image.png (https://ibb.co/PTvYpc4)

Anyway wows biggest problem are its players not the game itself. It's players dont want to play an MMO anymore.
That's one thing about WoW, and every other MMO I've played that wasn't EQ. You never actually feel like you're in the game. With EQ, even with it's terrible graphics (by today's standards, they were groundbreaking at the time), I always feel like I'm really in the environment. IDK if it's the camera angle, the slow pace, the fact that you're in environments that are inherently dangerous, and any nodding off or missteps could get you killed etc. But it really draws you in.

You aren't wrong about modern WoW players not wanting to play an MMO.

I play retail WoW on a roleplay server. It has areas of the game that are SUPER social, and players just congregate and hang out and chit chat for all hours of the night. It's one of my favorite things to do on WoW, and it reminds me of old school EQ, how you would just run into random groups of players standing around talking in Qeynos Hills and join in on the conversation. But whenever I do this, my younger friends who play WoW with me start stomping their feet and complaining about being bored and asking me why I haven't queue'd us for another dungeon.

Maybe classic MMOs will never appeal to a large audience again? IDK. I imagine a well done VR MMO would feel very much like EQ if done right however.

[magnetaress]

Wow did one thing right: leveling is fast and the end game. Particularly M+ is accessible within a few weeks of casual play.

[Topgunben]

That's one thing about WoW, and every other MMO I've played that wasn't EQ. You never actually feel like you're in the game. With EQ, even with it's terrible graphics (by today's standards, they were groundbreaking at the time), I always feel like I'm really in the environment. IDK if it's the camera angle, the slow pace, the fact that you're in environments that are inherently dangerous, and any nodding off or missteps could get you killed etc. But it really draws you in.

You aren't wrong about modern WoW players not wanting to play an MMO.

I play retail WoW on a roleplay server. It has areas of the game that are SUPER social, and players just congregate and hang out and chit chat for all hours of the night. It's one of my favorite things to do on WoW, and it reminds me of old school EQ, how you would just run into random groups of players standing around talking in Qeynos Hills and join in on the conversation. But whenever I do this, my younger friends who play WoW with me start stomping their feet and complaining about being bored and asking me why I haven't queue'd us for another dungeon.

Maybe classic MMOs will never appeal to a large audience again? IDK. I imagine a well done VR MMO would feel very much like EQ if done right however.

Do you think classic EQ promotes socializing because of camps and the slower pace?

In wow, when you’re running a dungeon, you never slow down or stop. Health and mana regen rates are so fast that by the time you could start having a meaningful conversation, you’re already ready to fight.

So maybe it’s 50% environment 50% player.

[Jimjam]

Do you think classic EQ promotes socializing because of camps and the slower pace?

In wow, when you’re running a dungeon, you never slow down or stop. Health and mana regen rates are so fast that by the time you could start having a meaningful conversation, you’re already ready to fight.

So maybe it’s 50% environment 50% player.

I like that eq left lots of typing time.

I don't think that is such a necessary part of MMO design now, what with voice chat.

[Ciderpress]

I like that eq left lots of typing time.

I don't think that is such a necessary part of MMO design now, what with voice chat.

I don't think voice chat changes much. It just lets you "type" really fast. You still need to pay attention when a sketchy pull comes in.

I remember people describing EQ as "a chat room with a game around it" and I don't even think that's a pejorative, although I'm sure it was meant as one. What multiplayer game *isn't* just a chatroom with a game around it? The whole appeal is the other real people.

If I want compelling single player I'll play breath of the wild or mario or something.

[Wakanda]

Do you think classic EQ promotes socializing because of camps and the slower pace?

In wow, when you’re running a dungeon, you never slow down or stop. Health and mana regen rates are so fast that by the time you could start having a meaningful conversation, you’re already ready to fight.

So maybe it’s 50% environment 50% player.

If we're talking about modern WoW, then this is accurate. But the same could be said for EQ live. This is something long-time WoW players frequently cite when talking about why classic WoW was better. I remember coming home from working and messaging random people for hours begging them to join my group and having to hold their hands and walk them out to certain dungeons. If they were good I would add them to my friends list so I could narrow down the search for future groups. I also remember having to explain every single fight before each pull because there was no DBM or anything. I also remember having to mark each target and tell each specific player what I wanted THEM to CC. Hell, there wasn't even any damage meters. I remember going on witch hunts and looking at peoples' gear and asking players if they were leveling weapons skills because the mobs weren't dying fast enough and our priest was going OOM and we were wiping as a result :eek:

Don't get me wrong, I will always prefer EQ over WoW, but for me WoW was and still is dramatically more social than EQ. I think this is namely because the nature of the internet changed dramatically between 1999 and 2004 and onward. I actually always thought WoW was kind of a mediocre and boring game, but that the social aspect of the game made it fun.

To put it simply, when WoW launched, we suddenly had voice chat, and myspace / facebook were super trendy, so I felt like I got to know players on WoW in ways that I never did on EQ due to the crude nature of the early internet. I'm still friends with people from classic WoW. I have them on facebook and actually still play with some of them on WoW (although Dragonflight is the first expac where almost none of my friends play anymore). Meanwhile, I have a hard time even naming any of the people I played EQ with 25 years ago :( which makes me sad.

But even in 2024 I still feel like WoW is dramatically more social than EQ. I think the main reason for this is because the average person who plays EQ in 2024 is an older male who mostly plays EQ solo and who generally likes to be left alone, and this honestly describes myself in many ways, so that's not really a jab at anyone. Meanwhile I have to appear offline on Battle Net and Discord because there's ton of annoying girls who will beg me to join their VC the second they realize I'm online (platonic relationships, but 20 year old women tend to be a lot more social than us 40-something year old reclusive men).

Also for me the biggest hit WoW took was at the end of MoP when they introduced X-realm and flex raids. This killed the need for a 25 man raid guild. At the time I was so excited for x-realm and flex raids. But after a couple of years I realized that you no longer got to know other players since you didn't need a dedicated guild with players from your own server anymore. Anyone who was in a raiding guild before this time knows exactly what I'm talking about. The drama on our Ventrilo servers used to be soooooo epic. (https://youtu.be/jvMK5KkLlZc) Nowadays if you complain about not being able to find a raid guild people will make fun of you and tell you to use the group finder.

[Wakanda]

I like that eq left lots of typing time.

I don't think that is such a necessary part of MMO design now, what with voice chat.When classic WoW launched there was a lot of 20 year old kids on our server who were trying to play it because they wanted to see what it was all about. One day my friend and I are typing away while in a group in Duskwood forest, when this girl he introduced me to rage quit the group. Since I barely ever spoke to her, I asked him what her issue was, and he told me that she felt like we were excluding her since we typed so much. Apparently a lot of kids from her generation can't type fast enough to have a conversation with us old schoolers who learned to type REALLY fast because of EQ. I remember the first time I realized I could type efficiently after months of pecking was when I was running for my life through the Sarnak Fort in LOIO and typing to my group that I was in trouble and had the chancellor on me. Up until that point I never understood how anyone could type so fast without looking at the keyboard, but I had just done it ! Now I have kids on WoW debating over whether or not I'm AI since they don't think any human being can type that fast and they view me as a propaganda machine because of my obviously biased political views on everything ;)

[Dundrige]

Did any of you play Minions of Mirth?

I played on it on my Mac long ago and it felt like the designers of the game just wanted to make an alternate EQ universe.

[magnetaress]

When classic WoW launched there was a lot of 20 year old kids on our server who were trying to play it because they wanted to see what it was all about. One day my friend and I are typing away while in a group in Duskwood forest, when this girl he introduced me to rage quit the group. Since I barely ever spoke to her, I asked him what her issue was, and he told me that she felt like we were excluding her since we typed so much. Apparently a lot of kids from her generation can't type fast enough to have a conversation with us old schoolers who learned to type REALLY fast because of EQ. I remember the first time I realized I could type efficiently after months of pecking was when I was running for my life through the Sarnak Fort in LOIO and typing to my group that I was in trouble and had the chancellor on me. Up until that point I never understood how anyone could type so fast without looking at the keyboard, but I had just done it ! Now I have kids on WoW debating over whether or not I'm AI since they don't think any human being can type that fast and they view me as a propaganda machine because of my obviously biased political views on everything ;)

*fistbumps*

🤜🤛

[Trexller]

*fistbumps*

🤜🤛

Gay.

[magnetaress]

Gay.

I was looking for this one 🫶 butt my phoen didnt have it thankfully the internet does

[Evia]

Lol

[Ekco]

The true spiritual successor to EverQuest was Eve Online regarding the importance of immersion.

I don't blame WoW for ruining an entire genre because Sony was already fucking up Everquest all on their own with Kunark & Velious design decisions turning this living breathing world of Classic Norrath into an arcade game about raid loot then the company that had a history of making excellent arcade games about getting loot came out with their mmo then 40 or some odd attempts by others to clone and replicate that over the last 20 years. literally the darkest timeline possible

In Eve if I want to pop in and see what's happening i don't load up the patch notes to see what's changed since last i played or check Reddit i'll watch something like this (player made guild recruitment ad in the form of Space CNN video with them declaring who they are going to fight next)
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and the community has been playing in this soft-roleplay(?) way for 20 years now creating a story that rivals game of thrones or any other drama out there


dude from Wired got so interested in Eve after having to do a story about it he wrote a real history book about a fake online world
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