Monk v.s. Warrior

[questever]

Which class is more fun to level up solo 1-60?

[Vexenu]

Monk

/thread

[Ripqozko]

not even sure this needed to be asked, monk

[questever]

not even sure this needed to be asked, monk

I know it seems like a silly question, but beserker mode and crits enticed me. Especially if i geared the warrior out properly.

On the other end the monk can do more things, especially soloing at higher levels

[Sonark]

I know it seems like a silly question, but beserker mode and crits enticed me. Especially if i geared the warrior out properly.

On the other end the monk can do more things, especially soloing at higher levels

If berserker mode and crits sounds like more fun to you, then that's your answer.

Notice no one actually answered your question, which was about fun, to which the only answer is "fun is subjective", and instead went with the min/max fastest choice.

[Solist]

I would definitely say warrior is more fun to level. The way they scale every level up is wonderfully rewarding. Great fun all round.

Monk is just...too easy? And sooner rather than later you're just another lizard monk twink and every other lizard monk twink is better or worse than yours, and none of it means anything or matters. Then you end up BiS and you still just auto attack things and they die or you die. You use more worts and they die. /yawn Watch some of Kelz's videos for an example.

And berserker/crits is not a thing. You do that maybe twice once you loot a twisted steel or gauduraak etc, bleh.

But the levelling experience on a warrior is sublime in contrast to the boredom and ease of a monk. Your decisions matter and have consequences as you have no get out of jail free card in a single key.

[jolanar]

What do you mean by solo exactly?

If you are twinked (fungi/haste) then both are great fun up to 50, after which a warrior starts to fall off really hard for soloing. You can still do it, but it becomes very limiting.

If you can get the epic for the monk, you can solo to 60 without too much hassle. It's still a grind, but almost every class is after 54. If you can't get the epic, then the monk won't be all that much better than the warrior but at least you can hunt in a lot of extra places and feign death gives you an out for almost any situation.

[PatChapp]

I did alot of solo 50+ on my warrior,fun isn't thr right word. It's very tedious even heavily geared. Monk would fit the fun factor better

[Solist]

How is soloing a twinked melee 'fun' though. It's a race to be in the bottom 1000 worst geared 60 monks on the server. Maybe people don't realise how futile that is and everyone needs to experience it for themselves?

I don't talk from a position of not having done it, with plenty of gear, having delevelled on multiple classes multiple times. Watched near BiS monks/rangers/warriors etc delevel etc.
There is no reward in auto attacking a mob slightly more efficiently than auto attacking that same mob on a different class with more or less gear, and it certainly aint fun. So knowing it isn't fun, the aim is to do it for the least amount of time possible.

I admit I was wrong to state warrior not having read the question. He did say solo. My bad.

You're a moron for soloing either class, but a monk will take less time doing the mundane boring shitty task of soloing a monk or warrior to 60.

Play an enchanter or necro, go do fun dangerous solo things.

[Keebz]

There is no reward in auto attacking a mob slightly more efficiently than auto attacking that same mob on a different class with more or less gear, and it certainly aint fun.

There's a visceral satisfaction I get with trading blows that I just don't get watching my frog kill the other frog.

The thing that sucks imho is the gearing. Parking my alt in ToV for a month while I wait for the gear I want to drop is super lame. Casters can at least camp most of their gear themselves / derive most of their power from spells / levels which is much more pleasant a progression on the whole.

[Zuranthium]

I know it seems like a silly question, but beserker mode and crits enticed me. Especially if i geared the warrior out properly

Do it then if you really want to make a Warrior. I don't think soloing with either class would be fun, personally I'd choose Monk if I had to, but I can see someone finding it somehow exciting to stay in berserker mode while solo, thinking it's thrilling to run around with less than 1/2 health killing things and seeing the big crit numbers.

And berserker/crits is not a thing.

Yes it is. Any good group that's just doing safe grinding should keep the Warrior in berserk mode when possible, and similarly for soloing the goal should be staying in berserk while fighting low-blue cons 1 at a time.

[Jimjam]

Which class is more fun to level up solo 1-60?



And berserker/crits is not a thing.


Yes it is. Any good group that's just doing safe grinding should keep the Warrior in berserk mode when possible, and similarly for soloing the goal should be staying in berserk while fighting low-blue cons 1 at a time.



With the nerf to battle bandaging, lets say level 52, I’d rather start at 100% and evasive up to solo a sonic bat than start at 44% hp and try my luck

But that is in untwinked build - say sky rot or schw haste (22%?),armour somewhere around black alloy to crystal chitin, maybe rampage sword or venemous axe/frostbringer. ie stuff you could reasonably pick up solo/rot or in a group between soloing. Heal pots for spikes.

[Solist]

Zuranthium spewing nonsense again.

Go parse the difference berserk makes.

Report back.

[Snaggles]

Prior to nerfing wooly nets a gnome warrior would be as if not more fun.
These days, any add you get is a run to the zone. It’s basically a melee mage.

Level one if you want one (the one you want in the end). I wouldn’t understate the effort it takes to solo any melee to 60. Low blues, single spawns, clock in and clock out. I’ve done it a lot but more out of compulsion than “fun”.

[Zuranthium]

Zuranthium spewing nonsense again.

Go parse the difference berserk makes.

Report back.

Solist spawning nonsense like usual. It doesn't matter that the DPS difference isn't huge, it still matters, and it causes stuns too. There's no reason not to use it when possible. You get more performance out of your character and people find it fun to see the big damage numbers popping up.

[Duik]

With the nerf to battle bandaging, lets say level 52, I’d rather start at 100% and evasive up to solo a sonic bat than start at 44% hp and try my luck.

+ more about weapons and haste...
Wort pots for the damage spikes. Etc

I'd want big arse damage numbers to offset any damage spikes/rng to make remaining in berserk a worthwhile venture.
I like jimjams idea best. Live on the edge only when it's unavoidable.

[magnetaress]

Warrior with a weighted axe and a big bow

[Troxx]

Which class is more fun to level up solo 1-60?

I have both. Fun to level solo?

Monk … and it’s not even close.

Fun to play in general? That one for me is a harder question. From the low-mid 50s and especially at 60 I honestly think I enjoy playing my warrior more. I find the enjoyment for each one to be very different.

[cd288]

Solist spawning nonsense like usual. It doesn't matter that the DPS difference isn't huge, it still matters, and it causes stuns too. There's no reason not to use it when possible. You get more performance out of your character and people find it fun to see the big damage numbers popping up.

You're generally correct but I would posit that this is more relevant for higher level content where mobs take longer to kill. In lower levels (on a mudflated server where alts are geared) there's almost no point since the group's DPS will melt the mobs so fast that it's more of an annoyance managing the warrior's HP to a specific level.

[7thGate]

I just did a mass autoriposte test in an attempt to chain riposte a horde of blam stick hobbits, which was also kind of nice for gathering crit damage parsing.

/GU Autoriposte in 9s, 89186 @9910 | Joerlin 89186

21 Crits/681 hits, for 3% Crit rate.

Average hit: 130
Average crit: 183

Used Narandi's Lance.

This is kind of interesting, since https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/834062fbf957c17a5492a1c3628d8af610ef5618/zone/attack.cpp#L4362 would indicate a 70% damage increase from criticaling, and it doesn't seem like it parsed that high. Crippling would be 1.19 x critical damage. I wonder if its not multiplying the damage bonus?

If I get a chance to try this again I'll see if I can get the warriors to go berserk and see what the crippling blows look like.

[Toxigen]

Which class is more fun to level up solo 1-60?

monk and its not even close

even if you had full BiS at level 46, monk is gonna do better getting to 60 solo and be a lot more "fun"

[skulldudes]

do u like swords most? warrior

do u like sticks? monk

monk >>> for being able to FD afk alone tho

[questever]

monk and its not even close

even if you had full BiS at level 46, monk is gonna do better getting to 60 solo and be a lot more "fun"

Valid point - but on blue especially , it feels like monks are a dime a dozen

[Toxigen]

Valid point - but on blue especially , it feels like monks are a dime a dozen

I mean there is a reason for that.

You said solo, the only answer is monk.

[Solist]

Solo everquest...


Like why?

[cd288]

Yeah FD alone is the reason to go Monk over Warrior. If you're soloing and going to 60, the reality is there are limited camps in the latter half of the 50s that you can solo as a melee. As a result, it's not uncommon to find people checking to see if these camps are open frequently. Generally some of them you can AFK safely in, but not all. And if you have to camp out on the Warrior to AFK for a few minutes there's a decent chance someone will steal the camp when they show up and see no one there. If you can AFK FD they won't be able to argue that you weren't at the camp first.

[Estrang87]

I would definitely say warrior is more fun to level. The way they scale every level up is wonderfully rewarding. Great fun all round.

Monk is just...too easy? And sooner rather than later you're just another lizard monk twink and every other lizard monk twink is better or worse than yours, and none of it means anything or matters. Then you end up BiS and you still just auto attack things and they die or you die. You use more worts and they die. /yawn Watch some of Kelz's videos for an example.

And berserker/crits is not a thing. You do that maybe twice once you loot a twisted steel or gauduraak etc, bleh.

But the levelling experience on a warrior is sublime in contrast to the boredom and ease of a monk. Your decisions matter and have consequences as you have no get out of jail free card in a single key.


Hmmm yes, can I autoattack this mob to death or not? Decisions decisions..... Warrior is NOT more fun to play solo, you simply cannot engage with as large a scope of solo locations or strategies as the monk, so therefore the only thing more "fun" is the crits as the guy said.

[magnetaress]

Dex helps war crit do much it's worth stacking too.

[knottyb0y]

Warriors are fun for itemization. Especially 50+ they have bags full of tricks.

Solo as a warrior 50+ is tedious, I'd suggest grinding out in groups. That is where warriors shine anyway. Even duos and trios offer a lot of flexibility (get a slow weapon and duo a LOT of content with a cleric).

In a group you are either tank, and playing the fight for aggro, hoping for procs etc. Or you are the DPS that can CC by off-tanking. Not a ton of dps like monk or rogue, but with a good 2 hander, or weapon set you can make some noise.

Couple cool very attainable clickies & procs 50+ wars get.

Slow: Truncheon of Doom
Invisibility: Incarnadine Breastplate(gather shadows), cobalt greaves (invisibility)
strength buff: cobalt boots
shielding buff: cobalt arms
snare weapons: silken whip of ensnaring


Probably missing a few, but having invis on a war 50+ is sweet. is it as useful as monk's sneak and feign death? probably not.

I like the thrill of tanking and managing aggro. So i'm very biased towards warriors.

[Vexenu]

I think a lot of the "fun" of soloing a Warrior is just the feeling of accomplishment from doing something different and difficult. You can't throw a rock without hitting a Fungi Iksar Monk twink, but soloing a pimped out Wood Elf Warrior? You're definitely stylin' and profilin'. That being said, there's a reason Monks are far and away the preferred melee to solo with. It's just a much easier and more enjoyable experience with the Monk toolkit compared to the Warrior.

[spoil]

I was having this same debate, leaning towards monk because I've already leveled a tank (pally) to 58 and never played a monk before. I have a very solid twink setup ready to go, just still considering a few things. Thinking about going eyepatch human and taking a leveling path through some of the dungeons I haven't really explored before.

[Duik]

Pornstash ftw.

[Vexenu]

Human Monk definitely the way to go if you've got a Fungi and other nice twink gear. The Iksar regen is enormously overrated (especially 1-50) and you'll level noticeably faster on the Human. Fashion is also obviously much better.

[skulldudes]

mustache > eyepatch ;)

[Zuranthium]

Human Monk definitely the way to go if you've got a Fungi and other nice twink gear. The Iksar regen is enormously overrated (especially 1-50) and you'll level noticeably faster on the Human.

It aint overrated. You get an AC bonus too. Iksar Monk that's trying to solo to 60 will do it faster than a Human.

Now, if I was redesigning things, Human Monk unarmed attacks would have slightly higher base damage (and the Monk epic would add to unarmed damage rather than making the attacks weaker+faster). So in that case Human Monk would be slighter better DPS. Unfortunately it's not how things are, so there's no reason I'd pick a Human.

[Vexenu]

It aint overrated. You get an AC bonus too. Iksar Monk that's trying to solo to 60 will do it faster than a Human.

This is incorrect. Assuming the Human has a Fungi and other decent gear, the Iksar AC and regen bonus isn't nearly enough to overcome a 20% XP penalty. The Iksar has to kill 5 mobs for every 4 the Human kills to keep up with him, and the small advantage provided by slightly more AC and regen just isn't that noticeable.

The Iksar will obviously be a statistically superior character at 60, but the Human will get there quicker.

[questever]

For a warrior does STR dictate the damage output on crits?

[Zuranthium]

Assuming the Human has a Fungi and other decent gear, the Iksar AC and regen bonus isn't nearly enough to overcome a 20% XP penalty. The Iksar has to kill 5 mobs for every 4 the Human kills to keep up with him, and the small advantage provided by slightly more AC and regen just isn't that noticeable.

Wrong. Sitting regen with Fungi at Level 51 = 20 per tick, for Iksar it's 27. That's 35% more regen between pulls, but lets say 30% in total since not sitting all the time. That is already enough to make up for the exp penalty. Then on top of that the Iksar regen gets even better at Level 56 and they have an AC boost. They will level faster, while also being just straight up better.

[Vexenu]

Cool math but it doesn't work out that way in practice. 30% extra Regen sounds impressive on paper but in real world conditions it doesn't offset the XP penalty. Monks can already bind wound to 75% at 50+ and the Fungi and Mend take care of the rest.

[Zuranthium]

Cool math but it doesn't work out that way in practice. 30% extra Regen sounds impressive on paper but in real world conditions it doesn't offset the XP penalty. Monks can already bind wound to 75% at 50+

Where are these infinite bandages coming from while soloing? Doesn't sound like the OP is going to have someone on the beck and call to be delivering them at the drop of a hat. If you are that well set up, then it would seem your interest should be in having the more powerful character at 60. So, the Iksar. The regen and AC bonus still reduces downtime anyway, they aren't going to be leveling much slower. Human sucks.

[Vexenu]

Where are these infinite bandages coming from while soloing? Doesn't sound like the OP is going to have someone on the beck and call to be delivering them at the drop of a hat. If you are that well set up, then it would seem your interest should be in having the more powerful character at 60. So, the Iksar. The regen and AC bonus still reduces downtime anyway, they aren't going to be leveling much slower. Human sucks.
Is Iksar statistically better and the obvious min/max choice at 60? Of course. I'm just saying the difference isn't as drastic as people seem to think, and it doesn't offset the XP penalty. The Monk class is so overpowered itself and has such insane itemization that the Iksar racials are just icing on the cake. And Human Monks are one of the coolest race/class combinations in the game. It's a shame more people don't roll them because they think they'll have a gimped character otherwise.

[Keebz]

The iksar regen is super noticeable if you solo or duo without dedicated heals.

Human monks are pretty sweet though.

[Troxx]

Cool math but it doesn't work out that way in practice. 30% extra Regen sounds impressive on paper but in real world conditions it doesn't offset the XP penalty. Monks can already bind wound to 75% at 50+ and the Fungi and Mend take care of the rest.

Disagree. Made my monk human for fashion-quest. As such no regrets ... but I would have leveled to 60 faster and been a far more powerful monk at level 60 if I'd chosen iksar.

[Zuranthium]

Human Monks are one of the coolest race/class combinations in the game. It's a shame more people don't roll them because they think they'll have a gimped character otherwise.

Depends what you consider "gimped" but the difference between picking Iksar or Human is one of the biggest in the game in terms of selecting a race. Personally I wouldn't want to waste time on something completely inferior.

The AC bonus for Iksar results in taking 7-8% less damage and the regen really does make a big difference. When in feign death, a common thing for a Monk to be able to move around or pull, it's 9 more HP per tick at Level 60. If the Iksar race didn't exist and there was a very rare item that gave +9 regen and stacked with everything, it would be one of the costliest items in the game. You can't deny that.

I really think you're being unhelpful trying to say "the bonuses aren't worth the exp penalty". Again, even if you had infinite bandages while leveling, the AC bonus + standing regen bonus is still going to result in being able to kill more...therefore making the exp penalty mostly irrelevant.

[Vexenu]

I mean, I've leveled both, so I'm not talking out of my ass here. But I think most of the "Iksar superiority" is an illusion, especially once you get into Fungi/T-staff/Epic/CoF levels of gear and beyond. It's important to remember that until level 51, the Iksar literally only regens 1 hp more while standing, which is +10 hp per minute. That's obviously not doing anything to offset a 20% XP penalty. If you've got a Monk twinked with a Fungi/CoF/T-Staff he's going to be running around killing practically non-stop anyway, so the Iksar sitting regen advantage is totally irrelevant.

Even getting deeper into the 50s the regen is not that much of a factor. For example, at level 57 the Iksar is +7 and +10 standing/sitting. That's 70 and 100 hp per minute. Sure, it's not nothing, but that's literally just one hit from a mob. And when you're solo and can bind to 75%, it's just not that noticeable. And if you're duoing with a Shaman or Cleric it's even less noticeable. And if you're 60 and on a pull team, you're obviously going to have a Fungi and Regrowth regardless of race.

That being said, the Iksar is inarguably min/max, and the regen is definitely noticeable if you're soloing in a bad spot, get very low on HP and have to regen while FD. But that's not a super common scenario in my experience, and not worth sacrificing the unquestionable superiority of the Human Monk fashionquest, which is one of the best in the game.

Basically, my point is that from 1-50, the difference is almost entirely non-existent (at least while twinked). In the 50s, it can become somewhat apparent depending on how you're leveling, but is still not that great. And raiding at 60, you're going to be fully buffed and receiving heals anyway, rendering the regen advantage fairly irrelevant.

Don't be afraid, bros. Take the Human Monk pill.

[Zuranthium]

Getting from 51 to 60 generally takes longer than gaining the previous 50 levels. If you're super twinked, then definitely it does. The early levels are a breeze.

For raiding the AC is significant, and the regen still can be too. For soloing/grouping, obviously they make an impact. To me it feels bad to play something that's mechanically worse for no reason. If humans had a small DPS advantage, then it wouldn't feel bad. You'd know there's something you can do better. Hell, even if faction was more relevant in the game, that would at least be something.

[Jimjam]

Getting from 51 to 60 generally takes longer than gaining the previous 50 levels. If you're super twinked, then definitely it does. The early levels are a breeze.

For raiding the AC is significant, and the regen still can be too. For soloing/grouping, obviously they make an impact. To me it feels bad to play something that's mechanically worse for no reason. If humans had a small DPS advantage, then it wouldn't feel bad. You'd know there's something you can do better. Hell, even if faction was more relevant in the game, that would at least be something.

Iksar are at -10 cold resist. Shaman nukes are relevant pretty much the entire levelling process, and ice comet when pulling seb later on. These spells give a sliver of advantage to human for people that need some kind of functional perk to step outside min max. Iksar surely minmax though. Mine is an iksar female just to look a little different.

[Snaggles]

Iksar monks, “Innate regen is HUGE. The racial perk is class-making”
Paladins, “we get a 8hp regen that stacks with everything. It’s on page 11.”

Play the race you want. Put a fungi on either. Level 20% slower with the tail.

Monk is certainly easier. I think I’d rather have the warrior at the end though and go through the extra pain.

[Zuranthium]

Iksar are at -10 cold resist. Shaman nukes are relevant pretty much the entire levelling process, and ice comet when pulling seb later on. These spells give a sliver of advantage to human for people that need some kind of functional perk to step outside min max.

LOL, well it was a valiant attempt. I'm not sure 10 cold resist stops more damage than just having regen.

[cd288]

If that guy had actually leveled both Human and Iksar Monks to 60 then he wouldn't be saying the regen isn't that important. I mean, for sure pre-50 it's probably not that big of a deal (especially if the human has a fungi tunic). But in the 50s if you're soloing the Iksar regen definitely outpaces the time that you lose due to the EXP penalty (ESPECIALLY if you don't have a Fungi Tunic).

You might not see this massive gulf between the races if you just look at once level, but over the course of the entire 50-60 grind there is a significant difference in leveling time overall in favor of Iksar (obviously, not if you're just killing like 1 static spawn every 6:40 and just semi-AFK though). That being said, is it significant enough that I would say picking human is stupid if you enjoy playing a human monk? Not at all; play what you like...but if your goal is solely quickest/most efficient to level to 60 then it's Iksar.

[Toxigen]

the lizardpeepul walk among us

[Vexenu]

With or without a Fungi, a Human is faster if you know what you're doing. People underestimate the impact of a 20% XP penalty and overestimate the practical benefit of Regen. A few extra standing Regen per tick (which is what matters, not sitting Regen, because you're bandaging to 75% between kills, not sitting) is not enough of an advantage for the Iksar to kill 5 mobs for every 4 the Human kills. That's also assuming non-stop killing, which is rarely the case when soloing anyway (indeed, people solo a Monk largely to avoid the frenetic, non-stop pace of pulling for an XP group).

[Vivitron]

Wrong. Sitting regen with Fungi at Level 51 = 20 per tick, for Iksar it's 27. That's 35% more regen between pulls, but lets say 30% in total since not sitting all the time. That is already enough to make up for the exp penalty. Then on top of that the Iksar regen gets even better at Level 56 and they have an AC boost. They will level faster, while also being just straight up better.

I was curious what mend on cooldown would add; looks like 1 hp/tick per 240 total hp.

So if you are in the 2kish hp ballpark at 51 we're talking 8 hp a tick. So counting mend the 51 iksar gets 25% more regen sitting, 16% standing.

[questever]

If I choose monk, its going to be human 100%

However I have another predicament. i'm wondering if I should even twink the warrrior/monk because it would be gear dependent and I wouldnt fully understand the class and will look like a fool at higher levels in groups due to inexperience.

Should I just save my plat or just twink the shit out of my char?

[skulldudes]

you can learn the nuance of a class whether you're twinked to the gills or making your own patchwork and tarnished

you can also get all the way to 60 and still suck. gear doesn't matter in this regard, just conscious effort.

[Toxigen]

ive definitely seen a ton of bad monk twinks

[Vexenu]

A fully twinked Monk will basically face roll to the low 50s so it's common to see a lot of bad ones. I would do light/modest twinking and then around 45-50 decide if you want to invest more in the character, then go all out with Fungi/T-staff/CoF if you want to keep soloing. But just an FBSS and some modest weapons is more than sufficient to allow for soloing while also not making you so OP that you're never forced to actually learn and play around the limitations of the class.

[Toxigen]

If I choose monk, its going to be human 100%

However I have another predicament. i'm wondering if I should even twink the warrrior/monk because it would be gear dependent and I wouldnt fully understand the class and will look like a fool at higher levels in groups due to inexperience.

Should I just save my plat or just twink the shit out of my char?

kinda depends on how fast you want to level

could grab a bunch of real cheap EC gear to start (wu's, etc) and just see if you like it

do you have a fungi?

twinking is relative to ones bankroll

[Solist]

there is nothing to learn until 60, and deep into it.

Most 60 monks are bad at eq.
Most 60 wars are bad at eq.

Some of the best geared tanks and monks on this server are pretty bad at eq still.

Auto attack things and enjoy it if that’s what you enjoy.

[Ripqozko]

there is nothing to learn until 60, and deep into it.

Most 60 monks are bad at eq.
Most 60 wars are bad at eq.

Some of the best geared tanks and monks on this server are pretty bad at eq still.

Auto attack things and enjoy it if that’s what you enjoy.

@taigam for bad monks

[cd288]

With or without a Fungi, a Human is faster if you know what you're doing. People underestimate the impact of a 20% XP penalty and overestimate the practical benefit of Regen. A few extra standing Regen per tick (which is what matters, not sitting Regen, because you're bandaging to 75% between kills, not sitting) is not enough of an advantage for the Iksar to kill 5 mobs for every 4 the Human kills. That's also assuming non-stop killing, which is rarely the case when soloing anyway (indeed, people solo a Monk largely to avoid the frenetic, non-stop pace of pulling for an XP group).

In 50-60 you're not killing 5 mobs nonstop for every 4. But an Iksar can definitely killing faster overall with less downtime and every minute is critical if you're talking about leveling speed from 50-60 given how long that stretch takes. You will absolutely level faster as an Iksar (assuming same type of gear as the Human Monk has) from 50-60. If you're just chilling and soloing randomly and don't care about getting to 60, then yeah the earlier levels the Iksar regen just isn't going to make as much of a difference, but 50-60 is where you will level faster as Iksar.

[Philistine]

If I choose monk, its going to be human 100%

However I have another predicament. i'm wondering if I should even twink the warrrior/monk because it would be gear dependent and I wouldnt fully understand the class and will look like a fool at higher levels in groups due to inexperience.

Should I just save my plat or just twink the shit out of my char?

Imho it's worth at least getting a low budget EC weapon. Evem a 100pp weapon make a *huge* difference over starter or self-found weapons.

And don't sweat screwing up or looking a little silly in groups or raids - someone who is new to the game or the class is awesome! Most people are happy to explain stuff if you ask or are express uncertainty - if you happen to come across someone prickly (the forums are full of them!) just don't sweat it.

As for your initial question, I've heard (i dont have one) twinked monks are a blast to level, whereas I found my warrior frustrating to level. That said, the payoff for warriors is very worth it if you're going to gear them up at 60, imho.

[Vexenu]

In 50-60 you're not killing 5 mobs nonstop for every 4. But an Iksar can definitely killing faster overall with less downtime and every minute is critical if you're talking about leveling speed from 50-60 given how long that stretch takes. You will absolutely level faster as an Iksar (assuming same type of gear as the Human Monk has) from 50-60. If you're just chilling and soloing randomly and don't care about getting to 60, then yeah the earlier levels the Iksar regen just isn't going to make as much of a difference, but 50-60 is where you will level faster as Iksar.
As I said, you're underestimating the impact of a 20% XP penalty and overestimating the impact of a few extra points of standing regen. Monk soloing is about finding a low blue mob you can reliably kill losing about 50% of your health, bandaging back up to 75% and repeating. If you're sitting around to get full advantage of Iksar regen, you're doing it wrong. And in that case, you're also soloing slowly enough that the Human XP advantage on a per-kill basis would be even more pronounced. People are too caught on the regen numbers on paper rather than in real-world scenarios. Monks are not Necros or Shaman. They don't get the same efficiency returns that those classes do from extra regen because they don't solo the same way.

All that being said, more regen is ALWAYS better than less, and a level 60 Iksar is indisputably the statistical min/max superior choice to a Human (although their FashionQuest is far inferior). But you're deluding yourself if you think the Iksar levels faster due to regen. They really don't.

[Jimjam]

Okay, that is an interesting point. I’m gonna pull out some Dirty Simple Maths.

So at sonic bat levels (51-54), iksar is 4hp/tick better standing. It takes about 2 mins to kill a bat, 80 extra hp healed i.e. a single bandage. It takes 10 seconds to do a bandage to make up that difference.

My DSM suggests to get the same xp and make up regen difference, iksar has to spend 12 mins (6 bats), human spends 10mins 50 (5 bats and bandages)- the human levels faster accounting for diminished regen using bandages. I have a bunch of other thoughts but want to be brief.

[Vexenu]

Yes, that's the right way of thinking about it. Or put another way (using your numbers):

Time to kill a bat is two minutes or 120 seconds. The Iksar must kill 20% more bats to earn the same XP as the Human, so we can say that to earn the same amount of XP, the Human takes 120 seconds of combat while the Iksar takes 144 seconds (120*1.2). In exchange for this penalty, the Iksar receives 80 standing regen over that 120 second period, or about the same as is healed with a single bandage taking 10 seconds to apply. So the Human can kill the mob and apply the extra bandage to end up with the same HP and XP as the Iksar in 130s total, while the Iksar takes 144s to achieve the same HP and XP value.

People will say, "Well maybe so, but the Iksar Regen is much higher when sitting," but this is irrelevant, because you're better off bandaging than sitting, and if you're sitting for long periods between mobs your regen rate is not the limiting factor on your XP, it's your kill rate (i.e. imagine you're only killing one mob per hour, the Iksar Regen is obviously useless at that point and the XP penalty becomes much more apparent).

tl;dr Iksars are statistically superior to Human Monks but they look like shit and level slower.

[PatChapp]

The bats are a great example really
Lots of monks that solo do it in sol b from 50-60. Bandages are readily available 1 zone away. Human can kill just as many bats or ldcs in a cycle as an iksar limited more by spawns than regen

[Duik]

Jimjam says...
Okay, that is an interesting point. I’m gonna pull out some Dirty Simple Maths.

Best Quote Ever.

[cd288]

Yes, that's the right way of thinking about it. Or put another way (using your numbers):

Time to kill a bat is two minutes or 120 seconds. The Iksar must kill 20% more bats to earn the same XP as the Human, so we can say that to earn the same amount of XP, the Human takes 120 seconds of combat while the Iksar takes 144 seconds (120*1.2). In exchange for this penalty, the Iksar receives 80 standing regen over that 120 second period, or about the same as is healed with a single bandage taking 10 seconds to apply. So the Human can kill the mob and apply the extra bandage to end up with the same HP and XP as the Iksar in 130s total, while the Iksar takes 144s to achieve the same HP and XP value.

People will say, "Well maybe so, but the Iksar Regen is much higher when sitting," but this is irrelevant, because you're better off bandaging than sitting, and if you're sitting for long periods between mobs your regen rate is not the limiting factor on your XP, it's your kill rate (i.e. imagine you're only killing one mob per hour, the Iksar Regen is obviously useless at that point and the XP penalty becomes much more apparent).

tl;dr Iksars are statistically superior to Human Monks but they look like shit and level slower.

You're assuming that bandages are available your entire playing session. Highly depends on where you spend all your solo time. Unless you're always 100% fully stocked on bandages to the extent that you can just nonstop kill by bind wounding to 75% and then regenning then it's not really relevant.

[Vexenu]

If you don't have bandages available then you shouldn't be soloing a Monk. It's not hard to carry around a couple of bags full of them, especially if you're intending to mostly solo. And you can buy them everywhere. "What if you don't have bandages?" is just a silly argument in favor of Iksar. It's like saying, "Well, sorry but your Mage is useless if you don't have malachite!" Which is true. But malachite, along with bandages, are incredibly cheap and easily acquired. With basic foresight and planning you need never be without them. You might as well argue that Iksar is better because they can forage while Humans are at risk of starvation if they forget to buy food.

[Jimjam]

You're assuming that bandages are available your entire playing session. Highly depends on where you spend all your solo time. Unless you're always 100% fully stocked on bandages to the extent that you can just nonstop kill by bind wounding to 75% and then regenning then it's not really relevant.

Always stocked on bandages, food and blast heals!

[Solist]

If you don't have bandages available then you shouldn't be soloing a Monk. It's not hard to carry around a couple of bags full of them, especially if you're intending to mostly solo. And you can buy them everywhere. "What if you don't have bandages?" is just a silly argument in favor of Iksar. It's like saying, "Well, sorry but your Mage is useless if you don't have malachite!" Which is true. But malachite, along with bandages, are incredibly cheap and easily acquired. With basic foresight and planning you need never be without them. You might as well argue that Iksar is better because they can forage while Humans are at risk of starvation if they forget to buy food.

Majority solo'd a monk to 60.
Bind wound (5) or so.

Majority solo'd a 2nd monk to 60, probably a bit less because boring gameplay soloquest.
Bind wound (0).

Solo'd a 3rd inherited monk 50-60
Never bought a bandage.

Camped drusellar solo for 14 days straight 12-15hrs a day.
Used 6 stacks of bandages total a day.

Only time there has ever been a need for that garbage is camping DS solo. Which I'll happily leave to the aspy's these days.

Vastly overrated dogshit mechanic from a poor era of game design. Instead of bandaging, kill more mobs 1 level lower.

[Vexenu]

You can definitely get by soloing without Bind Wound sub-50 if you've got a Fungi and other good gear. But there's really no good reason to forfeit the ability to heal yourself and others 500 hp per minute when you're 50+, unless you're just too lazy to level it. It's a very strong skill, and it's actually quite insane to act like it has no application whatsoever when soloing, considering it heals about twice as much as a Fungi and bonus Iksar regen combined during downtime.

[Troxx]

Yeah both my monk and my warrior used the hell out some bandaids leveling up. At 60 for both now, I still carry around a backpack full of bandages on each. They’re cheap, can always delete if you need bag space, and are useful to have for self and others.

[questever]

Yeah both my monk and my warrior used the hell out some bandaids leveling up. At 60 for both now, I still carry around a backpack full of bandages on each. They’re cheap, can always delete if you need bag space, and are useful to have for self and others.

Since you leveled a monk and war to 60, which would you say was more gratifying getting to 60?

[Toxigen]

Since you leveled a monk and war to 60, which would you say was more gratifying getting to 60?

I've done both, I'd say War hands down.

I did all kinds of fun duos too on the war, had a truncheon at 50 that unlocked cleric, druid, etc.

[Troxx]

I've done both, I'd say War hands down.

I did all kinds of fun duos too on the war, had a truncheon at 50 that unlocked cleric, druid, etc.

Agreed.

That and the power curve from 52 (evasive) all the way to 60 (triple attack) is like going super saiyan compared to warrior power prior to 52. Far more rewarding than playing the monk imo.

People who shit on warriors probably haven’t gone through the process of actually leveling one … or did so from a point of extreme twinkage and never got to FEEL the dopamine hits that went along with critical upgrades.

[Snaggles]

Or soloed with a frostbringer and WESS.

[Vexenu]

I think at 60 a Monk is only better if you're willing to go all out on DKP bids for full BiS (basically forsaking alts) and are actively involved in all of the guild's raid pulling. Definitely not worth it to just be a mid-tier DPS Monk. On the other hand, a 60 Warrior just has so many clickies, proc weapons and gear choices, not to mention the ridiculous power of Evasive/Defensive. I think (and wager that most here would agree) that they're the most fun and rewarding class to fully gear out, and feel extremely powerful and valuable once you get to that point (which is also easier/cheaper than gearing out a Monk to an equivalent level).

[Solist]

What raid pulling does a monk do.

I pull & tank HoT when we 6 man it.
Same for hate minis. Maybe general just stuffing around like flurries or whatever clearing in tov.

Almost no reason to ever use a monk otherwise. Tl boxes and wands is faster better more reliable for a riot sized guild.

There is no ‘pulling’ like old days.

Bis on a monk is overpowered as shit, and not needed for most people. You can duo fungi king with a naked 39 cleric with 1500ac. That’s some very cheap high ac dkp items. Most raid monks gear for HP and are fuckin useless in the low man content in comparison.

The expensive part of a monk is the beads/immac shield/aon/bio orb/5 flowers/etc.

And that’s the same for a warrior but you can forego the beads I suppose. Still nice to have.

[questever]

Is there any validity to putting the starting stats into agility to bump AC or is stamina the for sure play for warrior?

[Snaggles]

For most races STA is a safe bet. I’d rather have as many HP’s buffed or unbuffed as possible.

The old approach of hitting 75 AGI with starting points is good on paper but there is almost no way you won’t pick up a 5 points along the way with an ogre and a base 70. Even soloing in the low levels with a fungi the regen is making up for any defense blip being under that magic number.

If your loot treadmill guarantees BiS stuff there is an argument for even CHA for higher chances of Divine Intervention triggering. Really, if you are in this camp not much is going to affect your experience, certainly not starting points.

[sajbert]

I don't know how hard it is to hit 255 sta on a gnome war with full points in charisma but I'm guessing that it's possible with BIS or near-BIS gear? As an Ogre however sta feels rather dead and I agree with that 5pts in agi is just wasted. For leveling dex is likely the best bet, at least for the twinks and should give far better return than agi. Once buffs and primal weapons are a reality agi, dex and str don't matter. So I guess true minmax is charisma for the ultimate warrior?

[Keebz]

What raid pulling does a monk do.

I pull & tank HoT when we 6 man it.
Same for hate minis. Maybe general just stuffing around like flurries or whatever clearing in tov.

Almost no reason to ever use a monk otherwise. Tl boxes and wands is faster better more reliable for a riot sized guild.

There is no ‘pulling’ like old days.


Sneak/flop is still nice for getting into position to send eyes, back tag, provide greater visibility, instant engage, etc. Voiddance while not entirely unique is also great for holding shit esp when things are little messy. This is all mostly just for clearing trash though.

To your point, a TL (or cap, amulet etc) and some know-how is like 95% of the pulls. The other 5% might require a bump and/or idol.

[Solist]

You add all points to Dex on both a warrior and a monk.

Unless you intend to play in 10-15man guild sillyness like Project Lightning does where we rely heavily on DI and the tanks charisma, charisma song, charisma potions etc. In which case those buffs take up valuable buff slots. Most guilds just let the tank die and another one gets aggro once chain is up, and life goes on.

As a monk you want max dex in almost all situations, you are the highest aggro generating tank in the game in many situations, and a far far better tank than a knight for most situations. Aggro gen is key. More fist procs more win.

You cap stamina without gearing for stamina fairly easily. You cap str easily, and agi gives no appreciable returns. Charisma really is a strong contender but I feel the majority of people benefit from the dex far more.

[questever]

You add all points to Dex on both a warrior and a monk.

Unless you intend to play in 10-15man guild sillyness like Project Lightning does where we rely heavily on DI and the tanks charisma, charisma song, charisma potions etc. In which case those buffs take up valuable buff slots. Most guilds just let the tank die and another one gets aggro once chain is up, and life goes on.

As a monk you want max dex in almost all situations, you are the highest aggro generating tank in the game in many situations, and a far far better tank than a knight for most situations. Aggro gen is key. More fist procs more win.

You cap stamina without gearing for stamina fairly easily. You cap str easily, and agi gives no appreciable returns. Charisma really is a strong contender but I feel the majority of people benefit from the dex far more.

DEX over STA is the play even if I'm not playing an ogre?

[Philistine]

DEX over STA is the play even if I'm not playing an ogre?

Personally I don't think so. I play an iksar warrior and put all my points into STA. I have BIS or 2nd BIS in most slots and still have only 246 STA without buffs.

If you are truly going to get straight up BIS then sure, you'll hit 255 regardless, but it will likely take literal years to get there. If you look up the 2nd BIS gear, you'll notice quite a bit of it doesn't have sta, so I do mean BIS BIS.

[Keebz]

I would not put anything in dex as a monk. You start with 95 and avatar exists. While leveling, all your monk gear is covered in dex and there's large chance you're not trying to proc anything anyway. STA every time imho.

[sajbert]

Personally I don't think so. I play an iksar warrior and put all my points into STA. I have BIS or 2nd BIS in most slots and still have only 246 STA without buffs.

If you are truly going to get straight up BIS then sure, you'll hit 255 regardless, but it will likely take literal years to get there. If you look up the 2nd BIS gear, you'll notice quite a bit of it doesn't have sta, so I do mean BIS BIS.
Self-buffed monk can cap sta relatively easily (well monk gear will always cost a lot of DKP) without putting points into stamina.

Stamina only makes sense if you want to save a stamina buffslot and gear for max resists for minmax raid pulling. Or of course if you don’t have imaginary levels of raid gear to hit those caps.

Charisma on monk is a more or less a dead stat. Agi is worse than dex and avatar doesn’t change that. Str is a waste once you’re geared. Your monk may not even use a proc weapon other than primal and dex still wins out if you’re not going stamina, and stamina only has incredibly niche use you hit that silly gear levels.

[Toxigen]

Agreed.

That and the power curve from 52 (evasive) all the way to 60 (triple attack) is like going super saiyan compared to warrior power prior to 52. Far more rewarding than playing the monk imo.

People who shit on warriors probably haven’t gone through the process of actually leveling one … or did so from a point of extreme twinkage and never got to FEEL the dopamine hits that went along with critical upgrades.

idk man 1000+ crip blows w/ my eashen sword at level 46 was a nice dopamine spike

[cd288]

DEX over STA is the play even if I'm not playing an ogre?

I would not go that route. They've done parses and shown that dex only barely increases the proc rate of weapons. Like barely as in not even really worth putting anything into the stat because the increase in proc chance is so small.

Unless you're twinking the char with STA gear might as well just go STA.

[Toxigen]

i think i did dex on my ogre and regretted it

but not because of the dex, but rather because i didnt go gnome or halfling

being small is BiS

[Jimjam]

i think i did dex on my ogre and regretted it

but not because of the dex, but rather because i didnt go gnome or halfling

being small is BiS

Being able to buy KoS bandages and food is pretty sick.

[Snaggles]

being small is BiS

Innate shrink is OP. Plus no need for a cobalt bracer, spend that $ gnomish fireworks.

[Solist]

Gnome mvp warrior for sure.

Except that one time i was jumping up the steps to LTK, used all stamina/endurance or whatever, hit disc and wore it off instantly. Dumb shit like doze pit jump etc, need to carry an AoN around.

Good outweighs the bad though.

And robes. Robes is win.

[questever]

For a warrior, how far can a SoZ,BoC take me?

[Snaggles]

For a warrior, how far can a SoZ,BoC take me?

People used to hit 60 with a Staff of Battle

[Solist]

You will do fine in all groups at all levels.

You would mainhand the BoC for the majority of leveling, probably till 55ish at a guess without doing any parses.

Horn of hsagra has 35ac tho…. Yuuuuj.

[questever]

You will do fine in all groups at all levels.

You would mainhand the BoC for the majority of leveling, probably till 55ish at a guess without doing any parses.

Horn of hsagra has 35ac tho…. Yuuuuj.

Regarding the Horn of Hsagra; don't warrios benefit from using slashers? Like an attack bonus

[Troxx]

I went full Dex on my dwarf warrior.

No regrets.

[Zuranthium]

And robes. Robes is win.

Warriors should not being wearing a fucking robe.

[Duik]

Warriors should not being wearing a fucking robe.

You need to talk to Naethyn

[Solist]

Warriors should not being wearing a fucking robe.

You're right.

They should be wearing several robes. Peel one off and it's just robe inception.

[Allishia]

Just wanted to comment, gnomes / hobbits small wars cannot tank tuna, she will toss them a mile away like a ping pong ball. I made mistake of tanking her on my war after avatar fading shrunk me, it was God awful /nod

[Ripqozko]

Just wanted to comment, gnomes / hobbits small wars cannot tank tuna, she will toss them a mile away like a ping pong ball. I made mistake of tanking her on my war after avatar fading shrunk me, it was God awful /nod

You can, the mage will just go oom fixing it the entire fight.

[Allishia]

Lazy has tanked tuna twice. No issue. (Edit From like 50%)

But that was days of PC walls.

Ya even with ogre wall it's a pain, the one time I did it shrunk we had the wall, but i went right through the ogres lol. I was getting so mad cause she threw me way too far. Sometimes I got summoned back but not enough lol. Regretted that avatar proc lmao. Vs regular size, pretty much just tap forward occasionally while looking straight down and that's it, way less work /nod

[Jimjam]

Gotta alt tab out for tanking tunare. Tanking the frame rate tanks the knockback.

[Wakanda]

Do it then if you really want to make a Warrior. I don't think soloing with either class would be fun, personally I'd choose Monk if I had to, but I can see someone finding it somehow exciting to stay in berserker mode while solo, thinking it's thrilling to run around with less than 1/2 health killing things and seeing the big crit numbers.



Yes it is. Any good group that's just doing safe grinding should keep the Warrior in berserk mode when possible, and similarly for soloing the goal should be staying in berserk while fighting low-blue cons 1 at a time.
The only warrior I've met who demanded that we leave him in berserker mode the entire time was so insufferable I've never grouped with them again by choice, lol. I remember them screaming at me because I "over-healed" them only to turn around and scream for us to heal him faster when he almost died every single pull. And he eventually did die and rage quit the group. We didn't even let him die intentionally, but just by the nature of the stupidity, it happened. At a camp that is otherwise trivial and should be mindless and easy. He managed to make it super clunky and annoying. I could understand if the crippling blows were game changing, but when it's like omfg, once every couple of minutes this dude has a chance to crippling blow almost as hard as a monk kicks. Huge game changer !11!!!!!11! Who cares if you're now OOM from having to stand up every 2 seconds to inefficiently baby heal instead of meditate, go ahead and remove complete heal from your bars entirely because this is the new meta !

[Troxx]

Crippling blows are mostly just eye candy. Most of our damage doesn’t come from critical hits to begin with. Having a critical hit be a crippling blow isn’t really game changing.

(But it sure is fun!)

My only gripe is when I do randomly roll into an easy group with well over 5k hp and the cleric routinely feels the need to start each complete heal at 50% heath. Like … I still have close to 3k hp. It’s ok to let me drop below 20% to start that heal.

[Zuranthium]

Crippling blows are mostly just eye candy. Most of our damage doesn’t come from critical hits to begin with. Having a critical hit be a crippling blow isn’t really game changing.

Crip blows themself aren't a big DPS difference but it's still something, and they cause stun, reducing the damage you're taking and building aggro. Berserk mode is also supposed to give +ATK bonus, not sure if p99 ever fixed that.

[Snaggles]

The best way to zerk is with a modicum of effort not to overheal. This means dipping in and out of it. Maintaining with a fungi and regrowth.

As Zur said, any warrior making this the Christmas tree topper of a grind group is delusional. It’s a lot of work and they at best are nudging rogue numbers. Keep the ench or necro alive with a charmed pet if you care about real dps.

In fact, a good reminder to not be obnoxious in a grind group. As I’ve said a million times, EQ isn’t difficult and drawing attention to yourself doesn’t bode well.

[Jimjam]

Once per session berserk mighty strike burst if someone else is tanking. Just for best chance at showy crips.