Paladin shield question

[scifo76]

Which of these three shields would you recommend for a generic tanking Paladin?

https://wiki.project1999.com/Life%27s_Guard
https://wiki.project1999.com/Shield_of_the_Dawn
https://wiki.project1999.com/Shield_of_the_Protector

Thanks

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On my SK I have the equivalent of Shield of the Dawn and Shield of the Protector. Use Shield of the Dawn when you need more AC, use Shield of the Protector when you need more Resists.

If you can only pick one, I'd go with Shield of the Protector as it is more well rounded with the resists. The exception to this is if you are fine carrying around other resistance shields like Lodi Shield, the Dragon resistance Shields, or Shield of Raindow Hues. Then Shield of the Dawn is better.

[Balimon]

Do you have all three? For just general tanking shield of the dawn is the best all around. If you're maxing HP for more high end raiding stuff than the other two would maybe be better.

[Sizar]

I have the equivalent of all 3 on my SK. I usually just go with the 100hp one for most raid tanking. Go with the Shield of the Dawn for when you are gonna solo a tough mob, start with that as it gives you the most mana. Once mana is used a bit, swap to your best 2hander.

[Balimon]

I have the equivalent of all 3 on my SK. I usually just go with the 100hp one for most raid tanking. Go with the Shield of the Dawn for when you are gonna solo a tough mob, start with that as it gives you the most mana. Once mana is used a bit, swap to your best 2hander.

This is good advice!

[zelld52]

55ac for group
100hp for raid

[Snaggles]

I have two of those banked and carry the Dawn.

The AC justifies the HP loss (or helps justify the HGL’s). The wisdom is a free celestial healing if you need it. It’s got a spike so looks about as tough as you can be as a paladin.

Not to slippery slope this one but it’s just 50 hps and a bit of AC either way.

[Troxx]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Shield_of_the_Protector

Best overall balance of ac/stats/hp ...

and it's the only one with resists

My pick at least

[Ripqozko]

55ac for group
100hp for raid

This was the correct answer, stack hp for raids, ac>in 6 man content. Good luck

[Troxx]

This was the correct answer, stack hp for raids, ac>in 6 man content. Good luck

Is 25hp really worth the ac (shield ac) and resists loss compared to the middling choice though? If 25 ever makes a difference for a knight taking a knight tankable target - that’s a cleric problem.

I actually consider the 30ac 100hp shield to be far and away the worst of the 3.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is 25hp really worth the ac (shield ac) and resists loss compared to the middling choice though? If 25 ever makes a difference for a knight taking a knight tankable target - that’s a cleric problem.

I actually consider the 30ac 100hp shield to be far and away the worst of the 3.

Agreed. Any single HP item will not make or break a fight. When flurries are quadding for 700, you'll die with or without the 25 HP. I wouldn't use Life Guard simply for the 25 HP either.

[Troxx]

Having played main vs numerous alts repeatedly in ToV - the difference between having and not having resists is pretty damn huge. Having those resists baked into actual high quality gear and not having to swap in relative scrub tier resist gear quite possibly is one of the biggest differences between the high end raid geared vs the rest of folks struggling to get there.

Especially when you’re doing a raid with less than 4 full groups that most people are gonna bring 50-80 people to drop. I’m in <Gravity> … we get the job done without zergs. Having or not having a certain level of resists can absolutely make or break a raid when you don’t have (or need) an extra 20-40 bodies to throw at a target.

From a HP pool standpoint … you gotta remember that velious was first beaten on this server in Kunark gear.

25hp is nothing. If you ONLY buffed out to 4k … that’s 0.6% more or less hp. If you buff out to 6k, 25hp is like 0.4% more. In a vacuum that is less than the tiniest squeaker of a fart in a hurricane.

[Ripqozko]

Is 25hp really worth the ac (shield ac) and resists loss compared to the middling choice though? If 25 ever makes a difference for a knight taking a knight tankable target - that’s a cleric problem.

I actually consider the 30ac 100hp shield to be far and away the worst of the 3.

if you are raid tanking which i specifically said yes, max hp for ch chain> rest

and yes i know we beat it in kunark gear i was in rampage and was there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

if you are raid tanking which i specifically said yes, max hp for ch chain> rest

and yes i know we beat it in kunark gear i was in rampage and was there.

If 25 HP was the reason your tank died, the problem was the CH Chain, not -25HP on a single item. The tank should never be near 25 HP remaining to begin with.

[Jimjam]

What if a mob does takes a character to 15 hp from max in one round?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What if a mob does takes a character to 15 hp from max in one round?

That mob is probably being tanked by a Warrior instead of a Paladin.

[Jimjam]

Why does paladin have a cheal chain, then? I’m so confused by the narrative we’re forging here.

[Troxx]

What if a mob does takes a character to 15 hp from max in one round?

We can play the what off all day but perhaps an extra 10, 15, or 25 shield ac would have deflected one of those single hits down by a single damage interval(DI). A single DI for the few mobs that could accomplish this kind of ass kicking is a lot more than 25hp.

Or we just acknowledge that shit sometimes happens and the likelihood that 25hp makes or breaks anything when everything else is going well is practically non-existent (not impossible to though mind you).

We get a lot of slots that we can focus on hp and stamina. Only one slot gives shield ac potential. Unless p99 is unlike regular EverQuest in ways that I am not aware of, shield ac is treated very differently by the game than ac anywhere else.

Between the 3, if I had them all I would never personally choose the 30ac 100hp over 55ac and 50hp or 40ac and 75hp - both of which have wisdom which for a paladin can translate to healing power

[Troxx]

Why does paladin have a cheal chain, then? I’m so confused by the narrative we’re forging here.

We use paladins to tank things that still need a chain (albeit a slowerish one) … until the mobs is slowed. Big baddies and flurry drakes? Go warrior. They will survive better even after defensive falls.

[Eisai]

If sheild is the only slot that gets bonus to AC cap then... Obv?

[Troxx]

AFAIK each class has a hard and soft cap on AC. The hard cap is quite low and any ac worn beyond that is subject to diminished returns. The hard cap is different for different classes and the returns on ac beyond that hard cap (diminished returns) are different for each class. Warriors get the most ac returns on ac over the softcap for example.

Unless p99 is wildly different from live EQ (past specifically), secondary items specifically coded as a shield counts 1:1 for ac beyond the hard cap.

So yeah, shield ac is a lot more potent than all other sources for AC.

[Ripqozko]

We use paladins to tank things that still need a chain (albeit a slowerish one) … until the mobs is slowed. Big baddies and flurry drakes? Go warrior. They will survive better even after defensive falls.

We use knights to tank half of tov, even my alt has tanked vindi.

[Rygar]

Does shield of the dawn have the bladestopper graphic? If so, then this. FashionQuest > All. Other 2 shields look like garbage lo-res shit

[Snaggles]

Does shield of the dawn have the bladestopper graphic? If so, then this. FashionQuest > All. Other 2 shields look like garbage lo-res shit

Yep! SpikeQuest all the way.

[Duik]

Does AC on a secondary weapon count as "shield" AC?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Does AC on a secondary weapon count as "shield" AC?

No. The item must be tagged as a shield. A general rule of thumb is if you can bash with it, it's probably a shield. Something like Orb of the Infinite Void isn't a shield. I can't remember if you can bash with Orb the Infinite Void or not.

[Troxx]

No. The item must be tagged as a shield. A general rule of thumb is if you can bash with it, it's probably a shield. Something like Orb of the Infinite Void isn't a shield. I can't remember if you can bash with Orb the Infinite Void or not.

This is true. Whether you can bash is a very good indicator of whether or not the item provides ac coded as 'shield ac'. I do not know if this applies to paladin epic. SK/PAL epic weapons allow the wielder to bash while swinging them.

I suspect the paladin epic is not coded as a shield but rather as something uniquely different - but I have to admit that I do not know.

I don't think the SK epic has ac on it though? I dunno. I'd have to wiki google it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is true. Whether you can bash is a very good indicator of whether or not the item provides ac coded as 'shield ac'. I do not know if this applies to paladin epic. SK/PAL epic weapons allow the wielder to bash while swinging them.

I suspect the paladin epic is not coded as a shield but rather as something uniquely different - but I have to admit that I do not know.

I don't think the SK epic has ac on it though? I dunno. I'd have to wiki google it.

Yeah Paladin and SK Epics are an exception to the rule. You are correct SK Epic does not have AC.

[Sizar]

Troxx and DSM are agreeing too much in this thread, it's unnatural.

Agreed. Any single HP item will not make or break a fight. When flurries are quadding for 700, you'll die with or without the 25 HP. I wouldn't use Life Guard simply for the 25 HP either.

Paladin's and SK's don't tank flurries, they may bump when the 1st Warrior dies, that's bout it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and DSM are agreeing too much in this thread, it's unnatural.


Lol it is uncanny.


Paladin's and SK's don't tank flurries, they may bump when the 1st Warrior dies, that's bout it

I was providing a damage example, it was the first one that popped into my head. 25 HP generally doesn't do anything against raid targets due to how hard they hit for.

[PatChapp]

While not a paladin, I had a heal land on my warrior in an aow fight for 6485 hp. He has 6500hp buffed, it is the closest for sure

This is obciously an outlier,and usually 25hp isnt the difference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

While not a paladin, I had a heal land on my warrior in an aow fight for 6485 hp. He has 6500hp buffed, it is the closest for sure

This is obciously an outlier,and usually 25hp isnt the difference.

You are correct that the 25 HP would matter more if it got you over a specific HP threshold, like the tanking AoW HP threshold. But that would only be an issue if you have a specific gear combination that puts you 25 hp or less under the threshold.

[Troxx]

Lol it is uncanny.

We don't disagree on everything because you are not wrong about everything. I'm happy to agree with you when you are right :D

In the rare instance I am wrong or have a poor understanding of a thing I will own up to it. In any instance of me being wrong - my mind is open and changeable. There are a lot of things I don't know - and when it comes to those things you'll usually just see me be quiet and try to learn from those around me who know things I do not. I learn pretty quickly who is a trusted source of information and who isn't.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408174

I'm really embarrassed to link this but it's a really good example. I was wrong. I was assertively wrong. I face-planted into steaming pile of dung of my very own making. My ego is gonna take a hit as it has sunk down now to page 5 but I'm a big boy and I'll own it. I was using napkin math and there was a variable unknown to me that screwed all my calculations up royally. I was quite wrong about a thing I was quite sure I was right about.

The rub: On p99 you do not get damage bonus DAMAGE from your offhand but the server-side there is an issue where it does give you damage bonus THREAT from offhand swings even though the damage isn't applied.

Posts like this I thought I had it all figured out:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3508294&postcount=41

Joke was on me. Offhand swings do generate white dmg potential threat AND dmg bonus threat. I was so completely off base that the mountain I had confidently built and was standing on crumbled under my feet.

Frostreaver was and remains a very strong aggro weapon. I still can't assist with it safely. Now that I have 2h epic I still feel confident in saying that it still holds the edge in threat generation over the epic.

But my math was wrong and Willsapper + Red epic with 255 dex is still stronger than Frostreaver on any content where I'm not silenced.

I was providing a damage example, it was the first one that popped into my head. 25 HP generally doesn't do anything against raid targets due to how hard they hit for.

The point you were making still stands. I sometimes make fun of warrior buddies of mine who insist on getting POTG + symbol (+/- ac) buffs instead of just using Aegolism. Aego is 1 buff slot instead of 2/3, requires 1 ask and one action from 1 buffer and has a hugely long buff timer. You give up what ... like 70hp? As a realist .. 70hp isn't gonna make/break a thing. Outside of AoW as an example, if 70hp was the difference then it was a healing issue. Did ya have enough clerics? Was your chain too loose? Was your chain too sloppy (this is typically the issue - a gap or general sloppy chain).

But the counter argument is that ok 70hp MIGHT bake a difference. But in the situation where it DID make a difference, how much would the extra shield ac on the other shield have made the difference? Would it have? Maybe. Maybe not.

Choice 1: 30ac 10str 100hp
Choice 2: 40ac 10str 15 wis 75hp + 5 all saves
Choice 3: 55ac 20str 20wis 50hp

If I had all 3, I would:

-Never choose 1.
-Choose 2 only when resists were an issue and actually resisting (either fully or partially) was important.
-Choose 3 pretty much all of the rest of the time. I'd happily give up 50hp for 25 shield ac or 25hp for 15 shield ac.

If I lived in a universe where I was only ever allowed to use 1 of the 3 shields, it would be choice 2 probably. Balance.

(The real choice I would make most of the time would be none of the above and just use a NToV 2hander)

While not a paladin, I had a heal land on my warrior in an aow fight for 6485 hp. He has 6500hp buffed, it is the closest for sure

This is obviously an outlier, and usually 25hp isn't the difference.

It has happened before to people. It will happen again. Instances like these are far and away the outliers and not the norm. HP is king on this server but only to a point. There are points where you have to step back and be a realist.

[Eisai]

Wish i could quote just the threat part but eight thousand back spaces on flip phone is outside my patience.

Offhand gives bonus threat? Does this have a benefit that might make the 1H V. 2H tanking result change (namely for nonraid targets / leveling)?

Sorry for topic crossover.

[Troxx]

Offhand gives bonus threat? Does this have a benefit that might make the 1H V. 2H tanking result change (namely for nonraid targets / leveling)?

Yeah it was something I had not considered at the time.

When calculating threat potential it's a combination of damage threat and proc threat.

Damage threat applies whether you hit or miss. It is a function of your weapon ratio, the damage bonus for your level, and the speed with which you are swinging. Full haste = a lot more threat than no haste. Hit or miss - you get static aggro per swing (hit attempt).

What I DID know was that you got 11 threat per swing attempt on primary hand (dmg bonus at 60) on top of the ratio part. The faster you swing the more quickly you apply this bonus. What I DID NOT know was that even though you do not get damage bonus damage, it still gives you 11 threat per swing of your offhand weapon.

If you know all the variables:

-weapon ratios
-haste
-% double attack
-% dual wield (if dual wielding)
-% double attack + dual wield (if dual wielding)
-% triple attack (if warrior and level 60)
-proc hate values
-relative proc rate (2x ppm primary 1x ppm offhand at 255 dex)

You absolutely can napkin math average expected AVERAGE threat per second/minute. The wild card is that procs are streaky and can be anything other than average. White threat should be very consistent/predictable over time.

But yes, if offhand does apply damage bonus hate that makes this weapon the single highest threat offhand weapon in the game for warriors:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Nevederia%27s_Horn

The proc isn't exactly massive threat (it is pretty small) but you only get on average 1 proc per minute for offhand at 255 dex. The ratio is good. The delay is so blisteringly fast that you're applying that extra damage bonus threat at machine-gun speed.

----------------------------

In that OTHER thread, I was not aware about offhand damage bonus threat. In the absence of that non-classic offhand damage bonus threat, Dain's Frostreaver put out top tier threat (comparable to the best dual wield setups). Because such a big chunk of the threat came from a source that was always reliable (swing threat: ratio + dmg bonus), the aggro is or would have been a lot less subject to wild fluctuations as it didn't rely as much on unreliable procs.

Still a great weapon. Still great aggro. It just turns out it wasn't as tippy top as my original napkin math stated it would be compared to some of the better dual wield options for the raiding warrior.

[Ripqozko]

so still the same answer 100hp for raid, 55ac for group content. idk what yall use knights for but ours tank legit raid targets in riot, if you have a ch youll benefit from max hp more. rest of yalls junk answers is fluff.

[Eisai]

so still the same answer 100hp for raid, 55ac for group content. idk what yall use knights for but ours tank legit raid targets in riot, if you have a ch youll benefit from max hp more. rest of yalls junk answers is fluff.

But if secondary raises AC cap so you take 26 less damage..?

[Ripqozko]

But if secondary raises AC cap so you take 26 less damage..?

you stack hp to prevent a 1 round max hit

you still want ac but it works better in 6 man where mob attack is low.

you can do what ya want this is the answer tho.

[Troxx]

you stack hp to prevent a 1 round max hit

I get it. I really do. There are only a tiny handful of mobs in the game that can 1-round you if buff out to as little as 5k. Of those mobs, knights aren't gonna be tanking any of them. Well raid-geared knights will be buffing higher than that. If well geared raid knights buff well above the threshold for a 1 round max, where is the point that the knight acknowledges that 25 more shield ac is worth more than 50hp?

Food for thought.

[Ripqozko]

I get it. I really do. There are only a tiny handful of mobs in the game that can 1-round you if buff out to as little as 5k. Of those mobs, knights aren't gonna be tanking any of them. Well raid-geared knights will be buffing higher than that. If well geared raid knights buff well above the threshold for a 1 round max, where is the point that the knight acknowledges that 25 more shield ac is worth more than 50hp?

Food for thought.

my alt is 6.3k we buff out to 6.5k we knight tank most of tov now.

[scifo76]

Thanks everybody for answering! I got all 3 shields so I can do a bit of swapping for the situation.

[Eisai]

Lol, that'll show 'em!