Swarming - No Fear/POG/Velks?

[Bardp1999]

Wondering if this in practice only means City of Mist or if it really means ALL dungeons.

Here is a list to all the zones it applies too:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370929

With the new changes to swarming/kiting - it would appear that swarming in Fear and PoG are no longer viable options. Are there exemptions for Raid zones? Would Velketors Labrynth fall under a raid zone? If a group is using Bard snare to handle adds and keep mobs in camp, is this allowed?

As it reads, I would think the current Fear tactic of "train everything and then stun/AoE it down and then kill CT" would be very much against the rules - similar situation in PoG with kiting. People swarm the spiders all the time in Velks, its great XP for the group. I for one will be keeping a watchful eye on these zones and reporting anyone who violates the new law.

"I do not like limiting how someone plays the game (unless it's exploitive in nature, of course). However, based on a high volume of situations, there is a need to revise how we classify swarm kiting in dungeon-type zones.

Historically, we have only responded to reports of zone disruptions as a result of swarm kiting reactively - if the player has already monopolized all of the mobs in a zone or if they have already trained other players. However, due to the high-risk play style, this has not been effective at stopping players from repeatedly causing major zone disruptions.

We will begin to proactively consider swarm kiting in dungeon-type zones a form of zone disruption, regardless of other players being present in the zone or not. In addition to monopolizing mobs and creating very high-risk situations for other players in the zone, it is also creating situations where players are passing on hunting in desired zones simple because they see a single player using this tactic, and recognize that the high-risk playstyle for one individual may very well get them and their groupmates killed." ~ GM Medris

[WarpathEQ]

My thoughts are 100% Velks is included and likely one of the main targets of this change, with CoM being a close second.

Its specific to "Swarm" kiting i.e. killing swaths of kited mobs with AoEs. Not kiting in general so places like ToV and Kael would be unimpacted (unless maybe faction pulls are illegal?!?)

Doesn't really apply to the current PoG metas as the mobs get kited but not killed (maybe people still do PoG clears? I haven't seen one in the last couple years since the tunare kite meta came about).

To me by far the biggest question mark is Fear. To the definition of the rules the current fear meta would be 100% illegal. But requiring no more AoEs it would massively deprioritize CT as an option on quakes due to the length of time required to clear and engage him.

The rule change is cited to come from 2 principles: Streamling the rulesets and reducing petitions. It will be interesting to see how that is balanced in a place like fear where the streamlined ruleset makes the current meta not allowed but would also likely increase petitions by removing the ability for guilds to clear large quantities of mobs from the zone with AoEs opening the door for a lot more training and a longer time table for guilds to be competing head to head in the zone.

[Eisai]

My thoughts are 100% Velks is included and likely one of the main targets of this change, with CoM being a close second.

Its specific to "Swarm" kiting i.e. killing swaths of kited mobs with AoEs. Not kiting in general so places like ToV and Kael would be unimpacted (unless maybe faction pulls are illegal?!?)

Doesn't really apply to the current PoG metas as the mobs get kited but not killed (maybe people still do PoG clears? I haven't seen one in the last couple years since the tunare kite meta came about).

To me by far the biggest question mark is Fear. To the definition of the rules the current fear meta would be 100% illegal. But requiring no more AoEs it would massively deprioritize CT as an option on quakes due to the length of time required to clear and engage him.

The rule change is cited to come from 2 principles: Streamling the rulesets and reducing petitions. It will be interesting to see how that is balanced in a place like fear where the streamlined ruleset makes the current meta not allowed but would also likely increase petitions by removing the ability for guilds to clear large quantities of mobs from the zone with AoEs opening the door for a lot more training and a longer time table for guilds to be competing head to head in the zone.

Unlike your previous post i will disagree here. They will almost surely allow you to aoe with a raid force.

Frankly i would allow any aoe that can handle the pull mass (Inc chardok) but you would (under my rule) owe any accidental deaths more than just a res. But I'm not in charge of any damn thing.

I bet you can swarm anywhere until it upsets another player; which is totally expected and exceptable. Rule #1 is still "don't be a douche", right?

[cd288]

I highly doubt they care about swarming as a raid tactic. In those cases, you're just liable if there's another raid force in the zone and you train them.

This is a change focusing on bards disrupting XP dungeons like Velks, CoM, and KC

[Swish]

Start swarming and see what happens. You probably know already.

[Troxx]

I highly doubt they care about swarming as a raid tactic. In those cases, you're just liable if there's another raid force in the zone and you train them.

This is a change focusing on bards disrupting XP dungeons like Velks, CoM, and KC

This.

[Samoht]

Whether or not it was intentional, the raid zones are explicitly included with the list of dungeons, and "kiting mobs for AoE" is explicitly forbidden in dungeons, therefore they have introduced prohibition of AoE for clears in PoG and PoF or anywhere else you might be using such a strategy while raiding.

It's probably just an oversight, though, and someone should request GM clarification.

[Jimjam]

What is swarm kiting?
Swarm kiting (also known as AE kiting, historically) is the act of pulling a large quantity of mobs, kiting them, and utilizing point-blank AoE spells/songs to kill them. Most typically this leveling tactic is used by bards, but could theoretically be completed by other classes, as well.

Firstly, obviously the above isn't written as a water-tight legal scripture, instead it is part of a communciation on the spirit upon which the rule will be observed and applied.

Basically the motivation for the rule is more important than the exact details on how it is expressed. Ignoring that, I think it is worth looking at the minutae of the definition of swarm kiting anyway.

My interpretation of the above, is that for a kite to be considered a Swarm Kite there needs to be the intention to actually kill the mobs being kited as a part of that kite process. As such, training a bunch of mobs at once as a form of CC in a raid (i.e. not trying to kill the trained mobs, but running distraction so you can kill a separate mob) defacto isn't Swarm Kiting.

Furthermore, the ruling is an attempt to deter zone disruption. Having dozens of players take on dozens of mobs isn't really disruptive - it is the intended process of raiding (both form the players and the design perspectives). That said, perhaps this ruling does seek to encourage raids to actually fight mobs instead of running distraction on adds in order to focus on only killing the bosses?

I

Am
Not
A
Lawyer,

this argument may not stand up in the court of elf law.

[Keebz]

Rounding up mobs in PoG/PoF for AE during a clear is not "swarm kiting". Hope this helps.

[Ennewi]

Rounding up mobs in PoG/PoF for AE during a clear is not "swarm kiting". Hope this helps.

I'll take things CSR ought to confirm or deny for 1000, Alex.

[Samoht]

Rounding up mobs in PoG/PoF for AE during a clear is not "swarm kiting". Hope this helps.

The new rule specifically prohibits any intent on killing zonewide pulls with AoE. The restrictions are not limited to bard damage.

You must have never killed CT or Tunare.

[Goregasmic]

They didn't outlaw AE when they could but limited the scope to prevent zone disruptions. They're not outlawing swarm kiting either.

They're not going to be monitoring who kites and who doesn't but if you get reported for pissing people off you'll get a paddling. If you're alone in a zone doing your thing, no one cares. You technically still can kite COM if it is nearly empty but if you get reported for being a dick you can't say you haven't being warned. There have been numerous posts about bards pissing off entire grouping zones with reckless/greedy swarm kites and it seems like this is what is being adressed here. I've seen a bard kite HS wings to zone in without warning and be mad at people being mad at him. Eventually he apologized but some people are more preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should.

[Bardp1999]

They're not outlawing swarm kiting either.

This is exactly what they did?

[Ennewi]

They didn't outlaw AE when they could but limited the scope to prevent zone disruptions. They're not outlawing swarm kiting either. They're not going to be monitoring who kites and who doesn't but if you get reported for pissing people off you'll get a paddling. If you're alone in a zone doing your thing, no one cares.


Old 12-14-2024, 04:28 PM
Medris Medris is offline
Server GM

...

Swarm Kiting in Dungeons
I do not like limiting how someone plays the game (unless it's exploitive in nature, of course). However, based on a high volume of situations, there is a need to revise how we classify swarm kiting in dungeon-type zones.

Historically, we have only responded to reports of zone disruptions as a result of swarm kiting reactively - if the player has already monopolized all of the mobs in a zone or if they have already trained other players. However, due to the high-risk play style, this has not been effective at stopping players from repeatedly causing major zone disruptions.

We will begin to proactively consider swarm kiting in dungeon-type zones a form of zone disruption, regardless of other players being present in the zone or not. In addition to monopolizing mobs and creating very high-risk situations for other players in the zone, it is also creating situations where players are passing on hunting in desired zones simple because they see a single player using this tactic, and recognize that the high-risk playstyle for one individual may very well get them and their groupmates killed.

[Ennewi]

This is exactly what they did?

Technically it isn't banned outright, but a large portion of the world has been taped off. It's unfortunate that offending players weren't suspended/banned instead. That would have felt more classic and wouldn't have punished those who do follow the PnP.

[Goregasmic]

This is exactly what they did?

In dungeons. And probably much less tolerance for zone disruption in general.

They wanted to simplify their jobs by drawing a line in the sand. I find it hard to believe they'll trawl the logs to find offenders but they'll have no mercy at the first sign of dickery, that much is clear.

[Elizondo]

You shouldn't need an elf-law degree to be able to play here.

[Swish]

https://i.imgur.com/8vQEQwc.png

[Ennewi]

FAQ's:
How do you define dungeon type zones?
Dungeon type zones are based on the overall geometry and play style of the zone. They are clarified in this post.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370929

This list is provided to share how the staff typically categorizes each zone for camp purposes. This represents a summary ruling for each zone, and is overridden by any mobs with specific camp rules/rulings (for example, Lucan, VT, VD).
Additionally, the ability to cast Spirit of Wolf in a zone does not mean that it is classified as Open-World. Please refer to the classification lists below.

This is considered a supplemental resource. Please refer to section 2 of the Project 1999 Guidebook for camp rules.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2651

Dungeon Type Zones are characterized as a zone which has very few open areas. These types of zones may include Sebilis, City of Mist, Unrest or High Keep (See section 2 above). For the most part you can claim what's Line of Sight (LOS)/Aggro Range. A couple exemptions to the LOS/Aggro range guideline may be Sebilis Spore King and Karnor Captain where camping within LOS/Aggro is just not practical.

For these types of zones camps are usually dictated by the geometry. You may absolutely hunt multiple camps if no one else is contesting them. Once another party shows up asking for one of your camps it is your decision which camp you wish to claim, then they can then have their choice.

By definition, how are Plane of Fear and Growth considered an Dungeon Type Zones? They are nothing if not open areas, even more so than The Overthere which is categorized as Open-World.

[Samoht]

By definition, how are Plane of Fear and Growth considered an Dungeon Type Zones? They are nothing if not open areas, even more so than The Overthere which is categorized as Open-World.

GMs have conveniently provide a list of what they consider dungeons to remove any confusion or conjecture

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370929

[Ennewi]

GMs have conveniently provide a list of what they consider dungeons to remove any confusion or conjecture

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370929

The previous post included that very link, with a copy/paste of the criteria. There are, however, specific zones on the list that don't mtach the requirements described. One assumption would be, Plane of Fear/Growth are designated as Dungeon Type Zones because they are raid zones, but then technically the same could be said for a number of the Open-World zones. So the list itself only adds to the confusion and doesn't seem to match the classic definition of what is and isn't a dungeon.

[Samoht]

No, no it doesn't. There is no confusion. They have specifically named what is and is not a dungeon. Should be crystal clear.

[loramin]

No, no it doesn't. There is no confusion. They have specifically named what is and is not a dungeon. Should be crystal clear.

They did so here (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370929%7CZone) ...

Plane of Fear - Dungeon
Plane of Growth - Dungeon
Plane of Hate - Dungeon
Plane of Mischief - Dungeon
Plane of Sky - Dungeon

[Elizondo]

Everybody in this thread needs to stop it

Pointless pages of speculation and way over analyzing what are supposed to be simple rules that are easy to follow

[Jimjam]

The real question is whether CSHome is a Dungeon?

[Eisai]

Cshome probably isn't even classic. Bet they have Luclin models and everything.

[Ennewi]

No, no it doesn't. There is no confusion. They have specifically named what is and is not a dungeon. Should be crystal clear.

Yes, yes it does. There is no confusion because they have specifically named what is and is not a dungeon, but the description of what constitutes a dungeon-type zone is nonsensical when PoG and PoF are included. That should be crystal clear.

Explain how either of those two zones are dungeons, based on the description provided in that same link.

[Eisai]

Because they said so? Stop trying to argue with dad. Logic isn't going to win the debate. There is a list. Those zones are on it. Period. End of discussion, young lady.

Also, swarming is not AoE. Swarming is abard tactic. AoE is available to many classes. This should be your point of inquiry/debate.

I believe the tactic killing 25 mobs at once used by raids and even groups will remain.
The issue being addressed is the reckless and selfish few bards who have taken a class defining ability and used it to monopolize an entire zone and when shit goes wrong, instead of dying or capping out they drop the swarm on everyone between them and the zoneline and the most any of them offer in compensation is 96% of the victims' xp back.. Most of the time they were just power leveling guild boxes for dkp anyhow.

Either way, put the ZEM in zones that are actually difficult enough to need a full group and you won't have soloers and parties bumping heads like this. Bards don't swarm caster mobs, derrr.

[Ennewi]

Because they said so? Stop trying to argue with dad. Logic isn't going to win the debate. There is a list. Those zones are on it. Period. End of discussion, young lady.

That would be all well and good, but the whole purpose was to "simplify and clarify the ruleset on P99" because "you shouldn't need an elf-law degree to be able to play here." Only a lawyer would argue that Plane of Fear and Plane of Growth are dungeon type zones.

Also, swarming is not AoE. Swarming is abard tactic. AoE is available to many classes. This should be your point of inquiry/debate.

What is swarm kiting?
Swarm kiting (also known as AE kiting, historically) is the act of pulling a large quantity of mobs, kiting them, and utilizing point-blank AoE spells/songs to kill them. Most typically this leveling tactic is used by bards, but could theoretically be completed by other classes, as well.

Nowadays players use the two terms interchangeably, but yeah swarm kiting involves using charm whereas AE kiting simply uses dots and snare/movement speed. Also, yes, because other classes can AE and because the rule includes spells, not just songs, that seems to imply that AE piles in Plane of Fear would be prohibited, but there has been no clarification for what should be simple to understand.

The issue being addressed is the reckless and selfish few bards who have taken a class defining ability and used it to monopolize an entire zone and when shit goes wrong, instead of dying or capping out they drop the swarm on everyone between them and the zoneline and the most any of them offer in compensation is 96% of the victims' xp back.. Most of the time they were just power leveling guild boxes for dkp anyhow.

There was a very direct solution for this in classic. Suspend and then ban. Yes, the offending party could make a new account and level another bard, but that's still going to take a while, only to be suspended/banned again. But honestly, where are these groups that are being trained relentless on blue server? Green server, okay, there are probably PUGs to be found outside of KC, but blue is for raiding, farming, and twink alt soloing.

[Eisai]

Only an elf lawyer would bother posting the same question after everyone has reiterated again and again what is obvious.

The zones on the list are now disallowed from swarming (bard dot kiting).
If your raid tactic is to have a bard run in circles twisting dots on a cluster of mobs until they are dead then you are SOL. Try something else. Maybe mage wizard druid and enchanter recruitment will increase.

[Reiwa]

Only an elf lawyer would bother posting the same question after everyone has reiterated again and again what is obvious.

The zones on the list are now disallowed from swarming (bard dot kiting).
If your raid tactic is to have a bard run in circles twisting dots on a cluster of mobs until they are dead then you are SOL. Try something else. Maybe mage wizard druid and enchanter recruitment will increase.

Any bards that want to ae dot kite plane of fear are welcome to try it.

[Reiwa]

Skyfire and Timorous Deep would also be disallowed by that definition.

[Reiwa]

As well as, of course, The Dreadlands.

[Reiwa]

Not to mention The Emerald Jungle.

I don't want to because it's an awful zone.

[Duik]

Sounds a bit closed to me Samoht.

Good luck to the (inevitable) lawyer questers though.

[Ennewi]

Only an elf lawyer would bother posting the same question after everyone has reiterated again and again what is obvious.

There two questions being raised, not one and not even the one you've pointed out as being obvious. The list is the list, obviously, despite the fact that it is not intuitive and must be referenced. And to that the point, it was originally posted in 2020 and then edited in 2023. Now, with the new rule in effect, the mundane details have different applications and are worth scrutinizing. These are the two main questions...

1) What zone features cause PoF and PoG to be classified as dungeons?
2) How is the ruling meant to be interpreted? When it states that bard swarming/AE kiting is disallowed, it also includes spells and other classes as being disallowed, which makes sense as both can be involved with bard swarming/AE kiting to powerlevel. However, those spells and other classes are also necessary for AE piles in PoF which could be viewed as bard swarming/AE kiting because similar results are achieved, no different from Chardok AE groups of the past which have been disallowed.

The zones on the list are now disallowed from swarming (bard dot kiting). If your raid tactic is to have a bard run in circles twisting dots on a cluster of mobs until they are dead then you are SOL. Try something else. Maybe mage wizard druid and enchanter recruitment will increase.

Again, this is why the rule (correctly) includes spells and other classes because the bard does not need to apply dots to maintain the kite and for the desired result to be achieved. This however creates a Venn diagram, where raid tactics overlap with those of soloers/powerlevelers, both of which disrupt zones and generate petitions.

These questions aren't being asked to ruleslawyer, but for simplicity's sake and greater clarity, which was the stated purpose of the rule change itself.

[loramin]

1) What zone features cause PoF and PoG to be classified as dungeons?

The staff said so ... it's just that simple.

[Ennewi]

Skyfire and Timorous Deep would also be disallowed by that definition.

Not to mention Cobalt Scar (Kelorek`Dar) and Wakening Lands (Wuoshi).

[Ennewi]

The staff said so ... it's just that simple.

I get that. But, as is the case with many rulings, it doesn't make sense. The population has become desensitized/beaten into submission though. The beatings will continue, I guess.

[Nietche]

Funny. P99 should never have had made it impossible to AOE in Sky Fire, a place where absolutely no one xps anyway. The snowball has rolled from there.

[Duik]

I believe the snowball stops in skyfire. Maybe try a fireball?

[Eisai]

:D