What classes benefit most from gear progression

[Selene]

Which classes benefit the most from gear upgrades from 1-60 and then raid gear/rare drops? I think one of the most fun aspects of this game and why everyone plays is to see how a new piece of gear fundamentally changes the way a class is played or at least provides such a power-up in the class that it almost seems like a new class to play.

I heard warrior benefits a lot, but what are the top contenders? I’d think most pure casters don’t really benefit except for wizard (jboots).

Let’s hear it!

[Jimjam]

If gear means items, then spells are scribed thanks to items (scrolls).

Based on that I’m gonna say shaman as they get some mega spells, but also benefit immensely from weapons/armour/clicks too.

If we’re ignoring the scribe mechanic then I’d say it’s a hard choice between warrior and monk, but really the monk only goes totally nuts once all those crazy top end Velious items drop, giving them hp and ac that previously on plate geared tanks could accumulate on top of the decent kunark regen/haste/ratios/procs.

Honourable mention to rangers which also get a decent clicky haste, but stacking AC just doesn’t feel it works so well and they don’t have the hp/mend synergy which removes them from contention.

[shovelquest]

Well technically this is about the class that benefits the most from gear upgrades from 1-60, so monk is out because naked the monk is pretty powerful so it doesn't benefit as much from gear as the warrior or ranger. Warriors too are stronger naked than a ranger I would guess.

However rangers have spells! So they are certainly more powerful than a warrior naked.

And the other tank classes have spells and even full heals and HT's so they are more powerful than a warrior naked.

Now that we have that settled, that warrior is the weakest naked and therefore gets the most benefit from gear upgrades at the get go, warrior is the clear winner here.

However we should also just make sure that the top end benefits of the gear at 60 for a class don't have a greater impact for the other classes than a top gear warrior .

Warriors do however have some pretty amazing top end gear and so that means that I think they still win out overall, as the class that benefits the most form gear upgrades from 1-60, and monks, casters, and hybrids benifit the least.

But the scribe argument is pretty much take all I think if it's allowed.

[sajbert]

Depends on how you define it.

Some classes like necro will benefit massively from single items like CoS and VP staff.

It can also depend on the level, a JBB will completely flip what a shaman can do at lvl 45.

However, at the same time a monk gets a crazy amount of scaling from AC and get a bigger DPS increase than the aforementioned with raid level weapons.

[CrazyPro]

I can tell you that any melee without good gear will get squashed very quickly by AoEs in a lot of raids. If you're in bronze with a crappy 2hander as a level 60 SK you're about as good at taking hits as a cardboard box. Every single melee class scales massively with gear.

[Ennewi]

It's a toss up between monk, warrior, and ranger IMO.

If artifacts are taken into consideration, than ranger wins hands down with Oakwynd. The class would transform into ranged DPS with that bow equipped, allowing it to continue to attack during enrage, even if the target flipped, and remain OOR of AEs and potential ramp damage should the off-tank go down.

Before the push-interrupt nerf, the class also benefitted greatly from low delay weapons since it otherwise relies on random procs to interrupt casters. Tolan's BP is also noteworthy since it grants the class an unlimited self-port which can be clutch even with the long duration cast. That said, assuming there's merit to comments made about ranger AC being ineffective, that's a whole lot of wasted equipment potential for one class and a mark against it at least until that gets fixed.

[Swish]

Nobody talking about enchanters. You wanna charm with just base/self buffed cha? That'll throw your efficiency to the ground.

How well does a druid quad kite wearing raw hide and a cracked staff? Gearing is essential.

Mages and necros might be the only mana classes who you can level naked and not notice too much in terms of dps/progression.

[shovelquest]

Not only does a warrior scale from literally useless in every way ungeared to the main tank when geared, a giant race can shrink with gear. Warrior is holding strong for my vote.

[Knuckle]

I guess the "most" might be Monk if you want to talk becoming a solo god and doing solo artist challenges compared to other melee I think only SK is comparable?

[Duik]

Based on shovels comment, I'd agree it's warrior.

Based on Swish, Chanter may win caster.

[Keebz]

Add to that Shaman wins priest.

For hybrid, I wanna say it's Paladin. Ranger has a bunch of cool clickies, but don't benefit as much from general upgrades (which I believe is the spirit of the question) due to the AC nonsense and their spells being ass.

With SK, if you're a big boy, your stats are already pretty solid, so less benefit there, add to that you fear kite a lot, which means you're about as effective with or without big HP/AC items half the time. Bard obviously needs like nothing to be amazing.

Special shout out to Monk though. Really scales nicely with weapons, HP, and AC. Just doesn't need it as much as Warriors, which can do literally nothing without decent gear. There's definitely an interpretation of this question where Monk is the answer.

[Ennewi]

how a new piece of gear fundamentally changes the way a class is played or at least provides such a power-up in the class that it almost seems like a new class to play.

Epic turns the bard into a quasi skald. Singing Steel Helm lets the class to be in two places at once, fulfilling both the role of puller and support. Illusion masks allow for movement through doors that require a higher pick lock skill than the class is provided, making it more roguelike as a result.

Butcherblock Hammer turns the cleric into a battle cleric, and Blackstar to a lesser extent.

Oakwynd turns the ranger into an archer.

A Weighted Axe (incorrectly?) turns the warrior into an archer..

What else? Dawncall weapons start to transform the paladin into anti-undead, enough to where it encourages actively seeking out those targets.

[Snaggles]

If just gear is the consideration, Warriors and Monk scale the best.

Bards with the epic become more rounded and get some song upgrades (and basically another +Attack song).

A BFG ranger on the right target can rival geared rogues. Not on long fights or rooted targets but it basically adds 2-3 banes worth of extra damage in 3 mins.

If progression is level 60, all the classes become vastly better. Maybe the sham is most obvious since the whole play style changes with torp and malo.

[Andyman1022]

+1 for warrior and monk. Monk avoidance/mitigation as you start increasing above 1200 ac.. man it feels so good. Even better as you go higher (and achieve insane HP pools).

[cd288]

Well technically this is about the class that benefits the most from gear upgrades from 1-60, so monk is out because naked the monk is pretty powerful so it doesn't benefit as much from gear as the warrior or ranger. Warriors too are stronger naked than a ranger I would guess.

Warrior is probably it. But saying Monk is out is kind of a crazy statement IMO. If we're talking 1-60 then they benefit hugely from gear upgrades. Maybe not as much in like the first 30 levels but from there definitely. There are for sure soloable XP mobs that Monks cannot handle in the higher levels without good gear and getting that gear broadly increases your XP options.

I heard warrior benefits a lot, but what are the top contenders? I’d think most pure casters don’t really benefit except for wizard (jboots).

Putting Enchanters to the side since their gear upgrades are important if you plan to Charm kill. Wizards you also will need a high mana pool if you want to quad kite, so that's really impactful. Any caster will benefit from a GCD clicky. I think Mage benefits hugely from JBoots since you have no CC so in a lot of zones those JBoots can be the difference between life and death for you if things go south.

[Keebz]

Kind of a nit, but quadding with jboots sucks. SoW pots are much better, so I don't see jboots as transformative. Flux staff, though.

[cd288]

I think they are transformative. It might suck with JBoots compared to doing it with SoW, but considering it allows you to quad kite vs not being able to quad kite I think that's transformative (and saves you from constantly having to raise plat to buy SoW pots)

[WarpathEQ]

I would have to say monk as IMO with full BIS everything they are the most powerful class in P99. Can DPS like a rogue, tank like a warrior, drop eyeballs like a mage, self heal like a pally, feign better than a necro.

I would say shaman is a close 2nd because torp and slow is wildly powerful, they get some pretty tanky gear at the top end, can add feign death, best debuff, root rot, and tons of mana free clickies (especially DPS)

[shovelquest]

In a straight fight, would a BIS fully itemized monk beat a BIS fully itemized warrior, face to face tanking/dpsing each other?

The monk would naked..

So if the warrior can beat the monk fully geared, then the warrior gets the most benefit.

[WarpathEQ]

In a straight fight, would a BIS fully itemized monk beat a BIS fully itemized warrior, face to face tanking/dpsing each other?

The monk would naked..

So if the warrior can beat the monk fully geared, then the warrior gets the most benefit.

Based on the last FFA PVP event ending with like 6 monks being the final 6 toons I think we can safely say monk is the best BIS class

[Ennewi]

In a straight fight, would a BIS fully itemized monk beat a BIS fully itemized warrior, face to face tanking/dpsing each other?

The monk would naked..

So if the warrior can beat the monk fully geared, then the warrior gets the most benefit.

That's if class power is based purely on the ability to avoid, take, and put out damage in a rock em sock em 1v1 duel though. Those restrictions wouldn't allow players to showcase much in terms of know-how, which is why the BotB tournaments always seemed out of place personally, at least on PvE servers. Even on PvP servers, you still have to account for the environment and its NPCs, unlike in the Arena.

A class that has shadowstep can go from the top of the gorge in OT to the bottom without taking fall damage. A class with gravflux can launch themselves back up to drop-off points. A class with feign death run headlong into a pack of mobs and be safely out of range of opponents, swapping in worn regen items until ready to restart the fight. It's a different kind of power but no less powerful, and some gear upgrades allow for more of it.

[shovelquest]

But we're talking pure itemization here, not skill.

Skill should not be involved in this at all. Two characters monk/warrior.

Face tanking. Auto attacking, ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶e̶l̶e̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶,̶ and letting RNG and mitigation sort the rest.

Which would win by how much?

I guess theres a reasonable argument to determine which class has the most game changing utility items, and how much benefit you get from those that you'd not already get from spellbook spells etc.

Warrior does have a lot of utility items that provide abilities that they don't get without gear, so that's a more robust discussion than just pure hp/ac/dps provided by gear.

But in the context of monk vs warrior, I am curious BIS in terms of raw DPS/mitigation, which one gets more benefit from the gear than the other.

I agree a monk can do more than a warrior, but that is because of FD and Mend and stuff. In fact if we were to remove disc/abilities and just do pure dps output from warrior vs monk and dps mitigation from gear... that would probably be more of a control than allowing mend/dics's because you can do those without gear.

[Ennewi]

But we're talking pure itemization here, not skill.

Skill should not be involved in this at all. Two characters monk/warrior.

Face tanking. Auto attacking, using discs and other melee abilities, and letting RNG and mitigation sort the rest.

Which would win by how much?

For sure, if that's its own separate conversation within the larger discussion. It is interesting in its own right, similar to raid NPC 1v1s that were showcased a while back.

The title does ask though, which class benefits the most? Those benefits apply to all aspects of the game, not just PvP but PvE. And gear progression can't be reduced to 1v1 hit or miss, even in PvP, because much of that progress is more nuanced.

[Snaggles]

An Abashi is like 11% better ratio than the Palladius Axe of Slaughter. That’s a massive difference.

Hypothetically a 60 monk vs 60 warrior with the same attack power and a Shovel of the Harvest? It’s probably closer than one would think, especially if the warrior is rolling out at <45% health and offensive discing. A few big crippling blows (or even crits) can move the parse.

[cd288]

I think you'd be surprised how often a Monk could come out on top in that fight, even without abilities/discs being used.

[Snaggles]

I think you'd be surprised how often a Monk could come out on top in that fight, even without abilities/discs being used.

I don’t main either class, just throwing out an example that’s a bit more rational than “BiS vs BiS”. Running a zerk warrior has limited uses anyways.

I’m not surprised by much, tbh.

[Crede]

Which classes benefit the most from gear upgrades from 1-60 and then raid gear/rare drops? I think one of the most fun aspects of this game and why everyone plays is to see how a new piece of gear fundamentally changes the way a class is played or at least provides such a power-up in the class that it almost seems like a new class to play.

I heard warrior benefits a lot, but what are the top contenders? I’d think most pure casters don’t really benefit except for wizard (jboots).

Let’s hear it!

The answer is necro. Gearing them out fundamentally changes the way they play when you can start face tanking stuff given how channeling works on p99. Adding bis gear to their already ridiculous toolkit just makes them even more fun. There’s pretty much no where I wouldn’t go on a geared necro.

I’d give monks/sks as the next ones. Having gear and FD allows you to stretch the limits.

[cd288]

I don’t main either class, just throwing out an example that’s a bit more rational than “BiS vs BiS”. Running a zerk warrior has limited uses anyways.

I’m not surprised by much, tbh.

Oh sorry I was talking to the warrior guy

[cd288]

The answer is necro. Gearing them out fundamentally changes the way they play when you can start face tanking stuff given how channeling works on p99. Adding bis gear to their already ridiculous toolkit just makes them even more fun. There’s pretty much no where I wouldn’t go on a geared necro.

I’d give monks/sks as the next ones. Having gear and FD allows you to stretch the limits.

What gear for Necro?

[shovelquest]

What gear for Necro?

thats true, is bone knight possible because of gear alone?

[Vivitron]

Which classes benefit the most from gear upgrades from 1-60 and then raid gear/rare drops? I think one of the most fun aspects of this game and why everyone plays is to see how a new piece of gear fundamentally changes the way a class is played or at least provides such a power-up in the class that it almost seems like a new class to play.

I heard warrior benefits a lot, but what are the top contenders? I’d think most pure casters don’t really benefit except for wizard (jboots).

Let’s hear it!

While I tend to agree with those pointing to monk for "most" benefit, in my experience gear progression is fun on any character you have a strong preference for.

[sajbert]

While I tend to agree with those pointing to monk for "most" benefit, in my experience gear progression is fun on any character you have a strong preference for.

I feel as if this is true in most cases. However I can't see the point of gearing a few classes past a certain point. Good example would be wizard. Once you have basic resist and HP gear (EC tunnel stuff), Epic, VP robe and staff, Pegi Cloak, Jboots and banespells then there's no point in getting anything else really. Maybe UB bracers from fear? But really, I'm reaching here. Manastone if you're feeling fancy but its incredibly niche and not a raid drop.

Mage shouldn't need anything either past basic resist gear, jboots, epic, lvl 55, coth and velk boots. I guess maybe if someone went all the way and got full BIS and a Willsapper to tank for their pet, maybe they could pull off some crazier things. Yet to be seen?

[Duik]

Can you give a nodrop willsapper to a pet?

[Snaggles]

Mage shouldn't need anything either past basic resist gear, jboots, epic, lvl 55, coth and velk boots. I guess maybe if someone went all the way and got full BIS and a Willsapper to tank for their pet, maybe they could pull off some crazier things. Yet to be seen?

As a bot or a personal character? Quad DA is a world of difference for your purpose in life. Air and Water focus staves are easy and nice upgrades. No way a mage is tanking for its pet since it has no HP recovery system. Can’t even slow with a sapper without taking tons of damage due to npc’s prioritizing players over pets. Maybe you could run in/out each combat round and try to joust a proc. In most cases with a sapper a mage would just be helping slow preslow stuff like a worse ranger.


Can you give a nodrop willsapper to a pet?

No drop items to a pet get poofed without the pet benefiting.

[Vivitron]

I feel as if this is true in most cases. However I can't see the point of gearing a few classes past a certain point. Good example would be wizard. Once you have basic resist and HP gear (EC tunnel stuff), Epic, VP robe and staff, Pegi Cloak, Jboots and banespells then there's no point in getting anything else really. Maybe UB bracers from fear? But really, I'm reaching here. Manastone if you're feeling fancy but its incredibly niche and not a raid drop.
Sky neck, DA ear, zheart, manna robe, evac/nektulos staves are pretty nice too. I have access to a wizard with all those toys plus semi-budget raid drops focused on mana/resist and I like it over a base wizard.

Seems like a decent amount of gear progression to me.

Definitely a raid focused class though, whether that hits you well or not.
Mage shouldn't need anything either past basic resist gear, jboots, epic, lvl 55, coth and velk boots. I guess maybe if someone went all the way and got full BIS and a Willsapper to tank for their pet, maybe they could pull off some crazier things. Yet to be seen?
DA ring+earring are definitely core to the class, but past that gearing them might speak to me the least. A personal preference maybe; I acknowledge an extra coth of mana is typically a bigger raid impact than an extra porlos.

[sajbert]

Sky neck, DA ear, zheart, manna robe, evac/nektulos staves are pretty nice too. I have access to a wizard with all those toys plus semi-budget raid drops focused on mana/resist and I like it over a base wizard.

The staves are nice, but cheap and EC items. Sky neck I forgot about, it's maybe the best item aside from Epic. Zheart, eh, it's very rare that I feel it ever matters. Manna robe, sure, EC item like Manstone though. DA Ear? I mean it's cool but should be pretty rare that it matters, maybe some tryhard raiding wizard who doesn't wanna warmbody and defeat the purpose of playing wizard.

[sajbert]

Sky neck, DA ear, zheart, manna robe, evac/nektulos staves are pretty nice too. I have access to a wizard with all those toys plus semi-budget raid drops focused on mana/resist and I like it over a base wizard.

Seems like a decent amount of gear progression to me.

Definitely a raid focused class though, whether that hits you well or not.

DA ring+earring are definitely core to the class, but past that gearing them might speak to me the least. A personal preference maybe; I acknowledge an extra coth of mana is typically a bigger raid impact than an extra porlos.

True, DA items are essential for mage if we get to the tryharding with raid pulls.

And yes, I mean, it depends on how much you play. For some getting a Fungi can be THE goal of the game and that's it and until that point I think every class benefits immensely from gear. However, if we're talking getting ToV and ST-loot then things are different. I guess I have more of a velious raiding point of view.

[sajbert]

Can’t even slow with a sapper without taking tons of damage due to npc’s prioritizing players over pets. Maybe you could run in/out each combat round and try to joust a proc.
With sufficient AC (like full BIS) you should be able to tank a bit, and yeah especially if you try to joust a bit. Sadly mages can't slow themselves.

[Goregasmic]

I feel as if this is true in most cases. However I can't see the point of gearing a few classes past a certain point. Good example would be wizard. Once you have basic resist and HP gear (EC tunnel stuff), Epic, VP robe and staff, Pegi Cloak, Jboots and banespells then there's no point in getting anything else really. Maybe UB bracers from fear? But really, I'm reaching here. Manastone if you're feeling fancy but its incredibly niche and not a raid drop.

That's already a pretty long list for anyone who isn't hardcore dedicated, ESPECIALLY considering they can't farm for shit and they get picked last if at all for groups. And the main criticism about wizards is they don't have the sustained DPS most other class have due to DPS being mana based so the +mana gear and the health->mana xfer stuff gives more of exactly that.

I'm not saying they benefit the most but if you compare a BIS wizard vs one wearing mid tier stuff, there's a solid difference in lasting power, especially in smaller scale situations like grouping and the belief they don't need gear is a negative feedback loop.

[Goregasmic]

I'd also like to add that chanters often pass as a class that don't need much gear but that's far from the truth. Not only you need a ton of CHA to get stable charms/lull but most of the cha gear is pretty lackluster in terms of other stats until you start raiding and getting higher end pieces. Until you have access to raiding gear it feels like all that CHA is stunting you. Not only we need CHA for charm/lulls/mez but we also need a lot of mana since our spells are mana hogs and extra HP since we get beat on a lot and have no other mitigation options gear wise. It is when you reach 210ish CHA and start to be ready to swap bland CHA pieces for actually decent gear that you realize your options are limited if you're not raiding. And even then, having one of the most expensive spellbooks kinda further delays even EC options.

For leveling I think you can get by easily and cheaply but when you start dabling in solo artistry stuff, the better your gear is the more options open up. Caster gear impacts are a lot more abstract than "numbers go up" but it is real.

[Keebz]

Necros definitely Willsapper things solo—it's pretty neat.

For mage, however, I think you would maybe run into an issue with chain petting as now you have a slow proc into the mob. So maybe you'd have to adjust your strategy there a little.

You also don't have a great way of regaining hp quickly without gear / pots.

With avatar, you should proc pretty quickly though.

[Ennewi]

But we're talking pure itemization here, not skill.

Skill should not be involved in this at all. Two characters monk/warrior.

Face tanking. Auto attacking, ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶e̶l̶e̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶i̶e̶s̶,̶ and letting RNG and mitigation sort the rest.

Which would win by how much?

I guess theres a reasonable argument to determine which class has the most game changing utility items, and how much benefit you get from those that you'd not already get from spellbook spells etc.

Warrior does have a lot of utility items that provide abilities that they don't get without gear, so that's a more robust discussion than just pure hp/ac/dps provided by gear.

But in the context of monk vs warrior, I am curious BIS in terms of raw DPS/mitigation, which one gets more benefit from the gear than the other.

I agree a monk can do more than a warrior, but that is because of FD and Mend and stuff. In fact if we were to remove disc/abilities and just do pure dps output from warrior vs monk and dps mitigation from gear... that would probably be more of a control than allowing mend/dics's because you can do those without gear.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010502024119/http://www.maximumeq.com/news_maxeq/967753118.shtml

Pre-Velious and by no means definitive but, still, it's classic info from one of the household SOE names.

Friday, August 11th, 2000

Warriors vs. Monks
by Chris - 08/11/00 03:04 EST
...and the debate continues! Abashi did a test, read all about it below.
I'm about to take off, but I thought I'd drop by some data before I do.
I took a level 60 human monk and a level 60 human warrior with the same stats, equipped them each with an FBSS, and cast strength, dex, and SLTW on them.

With the monk, I tried 6 different weapons combos, starting at bare knuck, and ending with the top PoS weapon. (Didn't get into VP stuff which is better). With the warrior, I tried 5 different weapons combos, starting with dual SSoYs, and ending the the top PoS weapons. (Again, didn't get into VP).

Both PCs, at level 60, spawned an engaged a level 45 NPC (one on one with the NPC) for each test. As this is a test of offensive potential, the NPC was not allowed to fight back. Both PCs used 1 additional combat skill as often as it was available. Kick for the warrior and flying kick for the monk. Neither used any disciplines. It should be noted that since the NPC was not allowed to fight back, the warrior never entered berserk mode, which could sway results some in actual combat. I might run the tests over for the warrior while keeping him in berserk mode.

Results: The monk outdamaged the warrior given appropriate equipment in every case. The only time the warrior outdamaged the monk was when the warrior had his best weapon, and the monk his worst (bare knuck).

Matching up weapon-type for weapon type, the monks worst set (bare knuck) versus the warriors worst (dual ssoy's), the monk outdamaged the warrior by nearly 25%. Best versus best, the monks outdamaged by just over 25%. The lowest difference obtained for appropriate equipment was still a 20% surplus to monks. The worst armed monk versus the best armed warrior still favored the monk by 10%.

Of course, there was only one combat versus the NPC per PC per weapons combo, so those numbers will probably move a bit over several combats. As it is, it's a pretty good indicator that monks are doing fine, and yes, they rock

-Gordon

Related Links:
http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/003665.html


Saturday, August 12th, 2000

More Monks vs. Warriors
by Chris - 08/12/00 15:48 EST
Abashi explained more about why he ran the test the way he did.
For the past several weeks, the complaints by monks here on the board (most of the complaints anyway) have been that they no longer outdamage warriors. The tests that I did were only to confirm that that wasn't true. Yes, I conceed that monks cannot takes hits as well as warriors, but that's never been where the disagreement has been. When people said, "Monks no longer outdamage warriors", I had to disagree, which is why I ended up testing it out. However, when people now say, "We can't take hits like a warrior", I agree with that.
Dealing out more damage than the warrior doesn't mean that you'll beat the warrior in a duel, nor that the ratio of damage dealing to damage taking capability is constant. The benefit of extra damage has more weight than the disadvantage of being defensively inferior.

I'm sure that some would say, "If a warrior can solo creature X in two minutes and be almost dead at the end, then a monk should be able to do the same in a minute and end up almost dead". This would be an example of constant ratio between offense and defense and the two classes. This however isn't the case. If the ratio were constant as suggested, there would, again, be no reason to have the warrior, because the monk's other skills would make them preferable in all cases. Not to mention, there's an added benefit any time a creature is killed faster than normal, a benefit that can't be measured directly against the power of the class, but more against its usefulness to the group. Would a group, for instance, like to kill things in 2 minutes and end up OOM and near death at the end? Or would the rather do it in 1 minute and end up the same way? They'd want it done faster in all cases. That's what monks and rogues add as melee classes.

Concerning everyone saying that the test wasn't "valid", I fully agree with that from a scientific standpoint. Many more combats would have to be carried out than the ones I could do over a couple of hours yesterday. To be honest, its not really my job to test things of this nature, I just do it as needed so I can speak with first-hand experience. Though the specific percentage point differences can't really be considered averages, I do think that the test fairly well answered the question: Do monks outdamage warriors?

There was one interesting thing in the test that I didn't mention in the post yesterday, concerning the one time that the warrior outdamaged the monk. The warrior was using his best combo out of the 5 weapon combos I tried, the monk his worst (bare knuck). The damage ratios were determined by seeing how long it took for the character to kill the NPC in question. The monk completed the task in under two minutes in every case but one, where it took 2:03. The warrior was over two minutes in every case, with its fastest time at 2:01. The monk's best time, by the way, was 1:30.

-Gordon

Related Links:
http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/004016.html

[cd288]

I'd also like to add that chanters often pass as a class that don't need much gear but that's far from the truth. Not only you need a ton of CHA to get stable charms/lull but most of the cha gear is pretty lackluster in terms of other stats until you start raiding and getting higher end pieces. Until you have access to raiding gear it feels like all that CHA is stunting you. Not only we need CHA for charm/lulls/mez but we also need a lot of mana since our spells are mana hogs and extra HP since we get beat on a lot and have no other mitigation options gear wise. It is when you reach 210ish CHA and start to be ready to swap bland CHA pieces for actually decent gear that you realize your options are limited if you're not raiding. And even then, having one of the most expensive spellbooks kinda further delays even EC options.

For leveling I think you can get by easily and cheaply but when you start dabling in solo artistry stuff, the better your gear is the more options open up. Caster gear impacts are a lot more abstract than "numbers go up" but it is real.

I see your point overall but would just say you don't need HP when you have the rune line plus stuns.

[zelld52]

Monk the answer is monk.

[Rygar]

I'ma say rogue, they get the most benefit from a good primary (epic) and sets them up as DPS gods for both groups and raids. They literally jump intervals with a better primary and they don't need much else until raiding.