Do you believe in fatalism or free will?

[SorenVC]

I would like to call myself a fatalist because for me it is a lot easier to live my life being a fatalist than to believe in free will but I think the majority thinks the opposite. I've been let down too many times to think it was my own failure or someone else's free will. Now I believe in fate or destiny. It is so much simpler to let go of your need to control and just be lazy or happy. After all, you can still workout and do the things you like and not become ultra lazy by being a fatalist. For me I am a very anxious and nervous or timid person and I observe too much and overanalyze. That's why I simply prefer fatalism because it eases my mind. It is like alcohol for my mind it calms me down. It is a peaceful feeling to believe in fatalism. Back in the day I would prefer free will but at this point I kinda dislike it.

After all there is only one best option and the other options are worse. So free will is the choice to choose a worse option than the best one. If you had great vision you would always choose the best option but you can't because your eyes and being are not perfect. If you could choose between chocolate and fried eggs in the morning you would choose fried eggs because they are healthy but you could also choose chocolate because sometimes in the morning you desire chocolate more than any other food. In my opinion this is fatalism and not free will and I simply dislike free will. I understand neither free will nor fatalism can ever be proven so I don't know the truth. But what I like about fatalism is that it doesn't force you to do anything. It doesn't force you to struggle or learn or change yourself, it just accepts what is and that for me is peace.

This compatibilism or determinism I have never understood. For me there is either free will or full fatalism. There can be nothing in between. Maybe a restricted free will okay, but why call this compatibilism or determinism. It makes no sense to me. Fatalism is the belief in fate or destiny and that you can't change anything and what you will do, you will do. And if you change yourself for the better or worse, that it wasn't a choice or free will, it was meant to happen. Free will is the belief in magic. What is your choice?

[shovelquest]

I think it's more like a plinko machine. No free will, or determinism.

https://i.imgur.com/TndlPUf.gif

[SorenVC]

I think it's more like a plinko machine.

https://i.imgur.com/TndlPUf.gif

I agree with you. But didn't you know that a plinko machine isn't random? I'm not an expert on this but I KNOW that you CAN NOT program a system of randomness. All programs and programming is bound by a system of laws, the binary system so we could say it is NOT random even though it looks like it is. Life is the same! Very good observation of yours.

[shovelquest]

I agree with you. But didn't you know that a plinko machine isn't random? I'm not an expert on this but I KNOW that you CAN NOT program a system of randomness.

I opened up a game magazine at a newsstand because my friend missed the bus, found out about EQ, and here I am:

https://i.imgur.com/j2TGDdx.gif

All programs and programming is bound by a system of laws, the binary system so we could say it is NOT random even though it looks like it is. Life is the same! Very good observation of yours.

I suppose but maybe the universe isn't as complex as a punch card computer system?

[SorenVC]

I opened up a game magazine at a newsstand because my friend missed the bus, found out about EQ, and here I am:

https://i.imgur.com/j2TGDdx.gif



I suppose but maybe the universe isn't as complex as a punch card computer system?

I am 28 years old right now so I'm not a wise person. I've read some books for my lifetime more than average even though I didn't understand everything. I'm also a gamer so I suck at life. Gaming has always been my safe harbor. Somewhere I can relax and have a release valve. I've also been quite lonely in my life but I like it this way. Currently I only have 1 desire in my life but I feel like it can't be achieved. Fatalism gives me freedom from anxiety and worries. It makes me feel calm and secure.

That's why I don't like the idea of free will anymore. It seems like magic. But if fatalism is true it means that all who do not believe in it were fated to believe in free will. That's the beauty of fatalism. It is the only philosophy that practically says nothing. It doesn't force you to believe in anything and it doesn't try to change you. You can be a fatalist and a great helper of humanity! You can be a fatalist and a terrorist! You can be a fatalist and it doesn't show others your character. It is the true neutral and I think life itself also does not care if one tree or one animal dies. It is truly neutral.

[shovelquest]

Devs (https://youtu.be/Fp9LMsI6uJ8) has a really cool take on your question Op!

I also really liked Season 3 of Westworld (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSRZfDL4874), which kind of is about that too.

I often wonder had my friend never missed the bus if I would never play EQ? But Im confident I would have gotten back onto the correct timeline anyway through some outer outlet.

IDK op. But I err on the side of, if it can happen it will happen and that means everything will or wont happen and there is no organization behind the chaos.

But then again if I think my will would have gotten me hooked on EQ through some other outlet (my will to want to play CRPG fantasy) then I guess that means I think free will.

But the plinko machine happened to get my genetic composition to form in a position for that to happen in the first place!

What is chaos theory in jurrasic park anyway, I never really understood it :p Where do I land on the scale, I can't decide for myself.

[SorenVC]

Devs (https://youtu.be/Fp9LMsI6uJ8) has a really cool take on your question Op!

I also really liked Season 3 of Westworld (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSRZfDL4874), which kind of is about that too.

I often wonder had my friend never missed the bus if I would never play EQ? But Im confident I would have gotten back onto the correct timeline anyway through some outer outlet.

IDK op. But I err on the side of, if it can happen it will happen and that means everything will or wont happen and there is no organization behind the chaos.

But then again if I think my will would have gotten me hooked on EQ through some other outlet (my will to want to play CRPG fantasy) then I guess that means I think free will.

But the plinko machine happened to get my genetic composition to form in a position for that to happen in the first place!

What is chaos theory in jurrasic park anyway, I never really understood it :p

I like something about fatalism but sorry I don't like this generic horror trailer with those sound effects. Not my cup of tea. Or do you think I should watch that movie? I don't like that horror trailer and I don't like horror movies. They are scary! :D

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I am 28 years old right now so I'm not a wise person. I've read some books for my lifetime more than average even though I didn't understand everything. I'm also a gamer so I suck at life. Gaming has always been my safe harbor. Somewhere I can relax and have a release valve. I've also been quite lonely in my life but I like it this way. Currently I only have 1 desire in my life but I feel like it can't be achieved. Fatalism gives me freedom from anxiety and worries. It makes me feel calm and secure.


Yes, but:

I've been let down too many times to think it was my own failure

- Is a bad recipe for personal growth, aka none. Growth requires the acknowledgement of failure

If I had to pick between using some mental existentialism trick to remove all negative feelings of an outcome

Or acknowledging those negative feelings and using them to create an opportunity for learning and personal growth, I would choose the latter every time


- Negative feelings are not inherently bad or evil. They serve an evolutionary purpose to steer us away from outcomes that are bad for us. Or another way to look at it is that they are steering us towards outcomes that are good for us

Sorry I can’t say it more succinctly or go into more detail atm, at work and didn’t get a lot of sleep last nite lol

[shovelquest]

To put it in EQ terms, I think life is like everquest.

You /random on COF's all the time, but never win one. Then some dude shows up after playing for 3 months and wins one and next thing you know he's like BIS in your guild, but is also a total retard.

You say, "I have bad luck on randoms" and someone who also has bad luck on randoms is like, "It's not luck, here's the study that proves it."

And I grit my teeth and nod.

[SorenVC]

Yes, but:



- Is a bad recipe for personal growth, aka none. Growth requires the acknowledgement of failure

If I had to pick between using some mental existentialism trick to remove all negative feelings of an outcome

Or acknowledging those negative feelings and using them to create an opportunity for learning and personal growth, I would choose the latter every time


- Negative feelings are not inherently bad or evil. They serve an evolutionary purpose to steer us away from outcomes that are bad for us. Or another way to look at it is that they are steering us towards outcomes that are good for us

Sorry I can’t say it more succinctly or go into more detail atm, at work and didn’t get a lot of sleep last nite lol

What if I told you I can believe in fatalism fully a 100% and still go out running in the morning and working out at home. That's what I did since 1st March and I'll try continue to do it. In fact, belief in fatalism makes me calm and I always loved feeling calm because I am timid and nervous. If at all this fatalism makes me stronger! Fatalism does appear to make you pessimistic and lazy but the longer you believe in it, the less effect it has on you other than making you calm and dispassionate. And trust me, being dispassionate is much better than being passionate, because Satan is passionate and God is dispassionate.

[kjs86z2]

things happen for a reason but if you dont put yourself in the position for success / happiness / whatever in the first place you're just capping yourself at the knees

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

To put it in EQ terms, I think life is like everquest.

You /random on COF's all the time, but never win one. Then some dude shows up after playing for 3 months and wins one and next thing you know he's like BIS in your guild, but is also a total retard.

You say, "I have bad luck on randoms" and someone who also has bad luck on randoms is like, "It's not luck, here's the study that proves it."

And I grit my teeth and nod.

In most things, I think the old saying holds true: luck is when preparation meets opportunity

Now obviously this doesn’t apply as much to a completely luck-based event, like the pull of a slot machine (or I can’t really say pull anymore since it’s all buttons now lol. The push of a slot machine button). You didn’t really prepare anything other than your bet, that is completely a luck based outcome

But say meeting a girl that could turn into a future relationship. Preparation would be putting oneself together, having one’s shit in order in life, and on a more micro and less macro level, having groomed oneself to an acceptable standard that day…

…you meet the girl. You feel confident because you have prepared in a good life position, you feel confident because you groomed yourself that day. And so you ask her out. Or she asks you out. Or you guys have to talk for some reason and eventually it comes up in some way going out on a date

That opportunity required prep to succeed, most likely. Had you been miserable, un-hygienic, etc, a girl of the standards you would actually want would reject you

Could do the same scenario for a new job opportunity and a million other things. Even a windfall such as inheriting some huge sum of money requires the prep of paying attention to that. For example, what if the summons to civil court to claim the money came in the mail and an unprepared person threw it away?

So this is why I like to hold to that saying

[shovelquest]

What if I told you I can believe in fatalism fully a 100% and still go out running in the morning and working out at home.

I might argue that you think you believe in it, but deep down you believe in something bigger.

Like maybe, what simulates the simulation? Perhaps?

In most things, I think the old saying holds true: luck is when preparation meets opportunity

Hmm, too bad I was unlucky enough to have only heard this 30 years too late? 🤣

[SorenVC]

An enemy in Everquest only dies when you press Q on your keyboard while standing in front of it. So you are fated to go near it and press Q. That's all fatalism is and I believe in it. These free will guys think too complicated. You will never figure out what free will is because it doesn't really exist.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

What if I told you I can believe in fatalism fully a 100% and still go out running in the morning and working out at home. That's what I did since 1st March and I'll try continue to do it. In fact, belief in fatalism makes me calm and I always loved feeling calm because I am timid and nervous. If at all this fatalism makes me stronger! Fatalism does appear to make you pessimistic and lazy but the longer you believe in it, the less effect it has on you other than making you calm and dispassionate. And trust me, being dispassionate is much better than being passionate, because Satan is passionate and God is dispassionate.

You LEARN next to nothing from your successes like a good workout. You grow physically and mentally healthier, your brain’s capacity to learn improves and I guess to a small degree you develop better kinesiology and mind-muscle connection. So you learn about that activity to a small degree

You learn loads from failures. Even from a workout perspective. You will learn much more about everything you want to know performance-wise, from trying to get a certain place or time in a race and failing. What was the weakest link? “Oh, my legs got tired at mile 3” “Oh I was sapped of energy completely halfway through”. Countless lessons about leg strength and meal prep (which is sort of unique for each person), for example, in that failure event

We learn and grow far more from failures than successes, or at least we have the capacity to grow far more. The growth itself depends on what takeaways you get from an experience

And learning what to takeaway from an experience, what label to slap on it as it is filed away in your memory banks, is far more useful than trying “to turn off passion” or some weird shit. We are not Vulcan lol

[SorenVC]

You LEARN next to nothing from your successes like a good workout. You grow physically and mentally healthier, your brain’s capacity to learn improves and I guess to a small degree you develop better kinesiology and mind-muscle connection. So you learn about that activity to a small degree

You learn loads from failures. Even from a workout perspective. You will learn much more about everything you want to know performance-wise, from trying to get a certain place or time in a race and failing. What was the weakest link? “Oh, my legs got tired at mile 3” “Oh I was sapped of energy completely halfway through”. Countless lessons about leg strength and meal prep (which is sort of unique for each person), for example, in that failure event

We learn and grow far more from failures than successes, or at least we have the capacity to grow far more. The growth itself depends on what takeaways you get from an experience

And learning what to takeaway from an experience, what label to slap on it as it is filed away in your memory banks, is far more useful than trying “to turn off passion” or some weird shit. We are not Vulcan lol

I don't understand what you're trying to say but all I want to achieve by working out is to look like Ichigo when he faced Aizen. Because Ichigo looked like a strong man and had a perfect body... I don't want to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I want to look like Ichigo when he faced Aizen!

My mind wants to achieve this so that's why I go running outside in the morning and working out at home. To be honest I was never in a gym and I don't like the atmosphere there with those other people. I fear other humans and due to my father's impact on me this will never change. I don't want to sound like a victim but my father did have some impact on me.

Fatalism for me is like the sweetest honey. Just letting go of all your pride to control things and let go of all control and let things be as they are. Let criminals do criminal things and let saints be saints. That's all fatalism is saying. I'd rather be a fatalist that has nothing to do with criminals because fatalism turns you into a saint. You can't do anything wrong if you don't do anything bad. Fatalism doesn't force you to do evil things like what free will does.

This criminal committed heinous acts? Let's put him into prison! While fatalism just accepts everything as it is, and does not care about punishing anyone. I think that's why free will followers prefer free will, because they want to punish people. Fatalism takes away the need to punish people because we know bad people already are in a bad state of mind and feel pain, that's why they commit crime!

Fatalism just accepts everything as it is and doesn't try to change anything. It is like a tree that is being cut down and does nothing to stop it. It is pure peace of mind.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I was just using it as an analogy. I’ll adjust based on your goals. I’m assuming you want to look like this person in some time frame. So the failure event would be that not happening. You take a picture of yourself, let’s say a year later, hold it next to the anime guy or whoever it is, and you look rather worse (although it could be a tough comparison since that is an artist’s rendering and not an actual human). So rather than learn, what do I need to do to improve my physical aesthetics? What new exercises do I need to research, how can I improve my diet and training? Instead you go, welp! Wasn’t in the cards! And give up?

Letting go of your agency in life is a recipe for misery. You will go through with no locus of control, and substitute pride for confidence. You will have no confidence because you believe you control nothing. Everything just happens TO you. When really things happen FOR you, in life

So you will not grow, you will have no confidence, and you will have to incorporate an ever-growing multitude of problems into the “things I’m trying to not care about” mental existentialism tricks

You do you, but it’s not for me ;)

[shovelquest]

An enemy in Everquest only dies when you press Q on your keyboard while standing in front of it. So you are fated to go near it and press Q. That's all fatalism is and I believe in it. These free will guys think too complicated. You will never figure out what free will is because it doesn't really exist.

Q-anon was right.

[SorenVC]

I was just using it as an analogy. I’ll adjust based on your goals. I’m assuming you want to look like this person in some time frame. So the failure event would be that not happening. You take a picture of yourself, let’s say a year later, hold it next to the anime guy or whoever it is, and you look rather worse (although it could be a tough comparison since that is an artist’s rendering and not an actual human). So rather than learn, what do I need to do to improve my physical aesthetics? What new exercises do I need to research, how can I improve my diet and training? Instead you go, welp! Wasn’t in the cards! And give up?

Letting go of your agency in life is a recipe for misery. You will go through with no locus of control, and substitute pride for confidence. You will have no confidence because you believe you control nothing. Everything just happens TO you. When really things happen FOR you, in life

So you will not grow, you will have no confidence, and you will have to incorporate an ever-growing multitude of problems into the “things I’m trying to not care about” mental existentialism tricks

You do you, but it’s not for me ;)

You just described an LGBTQ person, not a fatalist. A fatalist will shrug off anything and be content with what he has. He will try to improve his position and be good towards all people, even criminals, as Jesus would. But in the end hopefully we will all be judged so that everyone realizes the mistake in his choices. Although if our choice was fated there might be no judgement. I do not know how life works okay. I'm just betting all cards on fatalism because I have no choice. Fatalism truly makes me happy. If I choose Iksar it is because they are the loneliest race and only socialize within their own circles. They are LIKE me. That's why I like the lizard people.

[SorenVC]

Q-anon was right.

Who is Q-anon? What do you mean? That's an abbreviation?

[SorenVC]

I would argue that the more pain a person experiences the less he will believe in free will and instead bet all cards on fatalism. It is the most pleasant philosophy to believe in. If anyone asks you what you believe in you can call yourself an ultra-fatalist and that will answer all questions while not giving away anything about yourself. When you die, you leave this world. The world continues without you. So what makes you think that you have free will and are important? Even if you had free will, you could change nothing that would be important - hence fatalism rules everything.

[SorenVC]

Humility is the opposite of pride which is a sin. And humility is letting go of all control that you might have. Humility is counting yourself as NOT IMPORTANT - this it the ultimate truth for me. I am not important. Neither is anyone else. We will all die and the world will continue without us. So why not believe in fatalism and be content with what you have?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

You just described an LGBTQ person, not a fatalist. A fatalist will shrug off anything and be content with what he has. He will try to improve his position and be good towards all people, even criminals, as Jesus would. But in the end hopefully we will all be judged so that everyone realizes the mistake in his choices. Although if our choice was fated there might be no judgement. I do not know how life works okay. I'm just betting all cards on fatalism because I have no choice. Fatalism truly makes me happy. If I choose Iksar it is because they are the loneliest race and only socialize within their own circles. They are LIKE me. That's why I like the lizard people.

Lol LGBT? You’re going to have to explain that, not following

You will try to “improve your position” by what? Begging? You already said that you control nothing. So do you just beg for your income? Beg someone to give you a job. Then when they ask your skillset and it’s not enough, rather than improve that skillset you go find someone else to beg and maybe they’ll say yes this time?

You will not improve without growth, and you will not grow without acknowledging your failures and what YOU did (or did not do) to cause them

[SorenVC]

Lol LGBT? You’re going to have to explain that, not following

You will try to “improve your position” by what? Begging? You already said that you control nothing. So do you just beg for your income? Beg someone to give you a job. Then when they ask your skillset and it’s not enough, rather than improve that skillset you go find someone else to beg and maybe they’ll say yes this time?

You will not improve without growth, and you will not grow without acknowledging your failures and what YOU did (or did not do) to cause them

Your growth and your acknowledging failures was fated. You don't understand fatalism enough. It means everything is fated. And to me - it makes perfect sense. You can still become a powerful world leader believing in fatalism and you can be a nobody believing in fatalism. There is no free will. Free will is all about the ego - I am weak so I must train to become stronger. See how that works out for you? I have no money so I must become Andrew Tate and scam people or start many businesses. It is all pride and ego, this free will. Fatalism is accepting life for what it is - fate. It frees you from your selfish desires, from your selfish goals, from ambition. Those are evil and from Satan. Fatalism is accepting that you are perfect the way you are and that nothing need be changed.

[SorenVC]

Lol LGBT? You’re going to have to explain that, not following

You will try to “improve your position” by what? Begging? You already said that you control nothing. So do you just beg for your income? Beg someone to give you a job. Then when they ask your skillset and it’s not enough, rather than improve that skillset you go find someone else to beg and maybe they’ll say yes this time?

You will not improve without growth, and you will not grow without acknowledging your failures and what YOU did (or did not do) to cause them

Everything just happens TO YOU. Perfectly describes LGBTQ people. Fatalists will not complain. They will accept life as it is and deal with it.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Your growth and your acknowledging failures was fated. You don't understand fatalism enough. It means everything is fated. And to me - it makes perfect sense. You can still become a powerful world leader believing in fatalism and you can be a nobody believing in fatalism. There is no free will. Free will is all about the ego - I am weak so I must train to become stronger. See how that works out for you? I have no money so I must become Andrew Tate and scam people or start many businesses. It is all pride and ego, this free will. Fatalism is accepting life for what it is - fate. It frees you from your selfish desires, from your selfish goals, from ambition. Those are evil and from Satan. Fatalism is accepting that you are perfect the way you are and that nothing need be changed.

No need to be hyperbolic. Just because someone works out doesn’t mean they want to look like Arnold. Just because someone wants to work doesn’t mean they want to scam their way into becoming some Andrew Tate clone. The ratio of honorable workers out there in the world to dishonorable is probably about 100-1 or even higher

What you are doing is picking what you see as undesirable outcomes on some polarized edge of the spectrum of people as an excuse to not try. Comes across to me as lazy, not enlightened

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Everything just happens TO YOU. Perfectly describes LGBTQ people. Fatalists will not complain. They will accept life as it is and deal with it.

LGBTQ people, like any people, do not think as some hivemind, believe it or not ;)

Dems think as a hivemind lol (they don’t but I’d be more likely to agree with that one) But there are LGBT conservatives out there

[shovelquest]

But there are LGBT conservatives out there

They wouldn't be identifying as LGBT then. So it's a catch 22. You are correct, but also there are none.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Dozens and dozens of Reddit bro’s have taken various forms of this argument during my time there. Except theirs was a bit more practical and less theological

Their argument was always “why can’t I be content where I am as single, lonely, and unemployed and not be some wage slave to a corporate overlord?”

The real issue is and always has been the work. “Wage slave” implies entry level jobs. The greater your skillset and education, the more leverage you have not just in pay but how you are treated as well. If these Reddit bros were just man enough to come out snd admit “hey man, it’s just too much work for me to improve my skillset that much” I’d be like /fistbump bro right there with ya. I don’t think I could become a doctor or engineer, that’s just too much school. But I at least have the balls to admit the truth and not try to do some mental gymnastics about how it’s really about capitalism and not my own personal laziness

[Lune]

Scientifically, we don't really know yet. At scales larger than subatomic particles, things generally work deterministically, that is, acting in an intricate and unbroken chain of causality stretching back to the Big Bang. Everything you have ever done or ever will do was determined at the instant of creation.

Quantum mechanics revealed some qualities of the universe that appear to behave probabilistically. There was a huge debate between Einstein and the determinists on one side and Niels Bohr and the quantum mechanics/randomness kooks on the other (this is where Einstein's "God Does Not Play Dice" quote came from. Most scientists these days lean toward randomness being real but there are still things like hidden variables theories (the guys who won the Nobel prize in Physics in 2022 won it for dunking on these hidden variables people).

There are still holdouts in the determinism camp, like superdeterminism, which basically argues there is an underlying deterministic godhand behind every supposedly 'random' result. This is probably unfalsifiable and is closer to a religion than a scientific theory.

So if probability is a real quality of the universe, it is very much possible that you actually have free will, that you are actually making your own decisions-- but it feels unlikely and I'll explain a few oblique ways it could be possible:

1. Orchestrated Objective Reduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction): Argues that the microtubules in the neurons of your central nervous system bridge our consciousness with the quantum realm, and allow us to collapse wave functions as a singular entity to create our objective reality and essentially act as a quantum computer. Seems like mystical woo-woo shit right? Well consider that 100 years later we still have no fucking idea how general anesthesia works, we can't find a mechanism anywhere in the cells of our brain. But a few interesting studies in the last few years have found a connection to microtubules. Most consider this theory to be bullshit.

2. Allegory of the Cave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave), or Idealism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism): We entirely create or singularly experience our own reality, like a stream of data into a receiver. At the instant of observation, when the wave function collapses, and a pixel of the universe transforms from a wave function (data), to a particle (reality), it provides its 'causal history' contained within the wave (in the form of its energy, direction, amplitude etc). Was any of it actually real?

Einstein, questioning the apparent absurdity of quantum mechanical explanations for reality, famously was like "So you're saying the moon isn't there when I'm not observing it?". And the quantum mechanics/randomness people were like "You can't prove that it is". And they were right. Our observations, or at least the objective collapse of a wave function, have the power to ret-con their own history through time. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser) This can also be explained as: they are neither a particle or a wave, they are nothing at all until we create/observe them. Indistinguishable from the fabric of the universe and reality.

In this paradigm, reality is nothing more than a stream of data, and we make real choices with our free will, and the stream constructs a plausible deterministic history. This would have some power in explaining things like synchronicities and the collective unconscious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity), basically themes in the fabric of the dream. (Interestingly, this idea came from a collaboration between Carl Jung, an analytic psychologist, and Wolfgang Pauli, one of the originators of quantum mechanics, both mystics).

Basically:

https://i.imgur.com/zzWBiyT.jpeg

[Ciderpress]

I'd say it's definitely better to subscribe to free will than fatalism, if only because fatalism invites you to be a fat slob, and free will invites you to get in shape and not be a fat slob. Even if free will per se is an illusion, it's a good illusion to believe in. Very similar to how I'm an athiest but I would much rather live in a christian society than an islamic society.

[shovelquest]

I follow the gaslight theory.

I gaslight myself to think taking the high road is how I pass some kind of fucked up test.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I'd say it's definitely better to subscribe to free will than fatalism, if only because fatalism invites you to be a fat slob, and free will invites you to get in shape and not be a fat slob. Even if free will per se is an illusion, it's a good illusion to believe in. Very similar to how I'm an athiest but I would much rather live in a christian society than an islamic society.

Most people have a goal of meeting someone, maybe getting married, maybe having some kids. Maybe having a home in the city or out in the country. At least I did aside from the kids part or the living in the country. I love the outdoors and remote trips as a vacation, but I love living in the city more (minus traffic)

A fatalist, or a nihilist Reddit bro, would just be sitting there on their ass waiting for the “Hey here’s a free wife, family and home for you!” letter to come in the mail. Assuming they even check their mail

Then when they realize that letter is probably not going to come, they continue to downgrade their standards over and over until

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2023/01/14/this-is-fine_custom-b7c50c845a78f5d7716475a92016d52655ba3115.jpg


I’m all for being content with less. But making that not only become a pattern throughout life but an excuse on its own to justify not ever trying is not healthy

[Lune]

Dozens and dozens of Reddit broÂ’s have taken various forms of this argument during my time there. Except theirs was a bit more practical and less theological

Their argument was always “why can’t I be content where I am as single, lonely, and unemployed and not be some wage slave to a corporate overlord?”

The real issue is and always has been the work. “Wage slave” implies entry level jobs. The greater your skillset and education, the more leverage you have not just in pay but how you are treated as well. If these Reddit bros were just man enough to come out snd admit “hey man, it’s just too much work for me to improve my skillset that much” I’d be like /fistbump bro right there with ya. I don’t think I could become a doctor or engineer, that’s just too much school. But I at least have the balls to admit the truth and not try to do some mental gymnastics about how it’s really about capitalism and not my own personal laziness

I think wage slave more implies non-meaningful work that doesn't bring fulfillment to your life, to some people that even means being a doctor (high suicide rate when they find out what the job actually is, basically a 7 minute assembly line for some healthcare corp).

The complaint is more as follows: Even if you're insanely skilled and competent, and work hard, there are very few paths to financial independence and fulfillment that don't involve being a toadie in some CEO's downline. Yes, if you excel in your work, you are able to leverage a larger piece of the pie for yourself, but as long as you are an employee and not an owner, most of the proceeds of your excellence are just going into someone's yacht fund. Fast forward 30 years, the vast majority of people have spent 10 hours a day 5 days a week carving out enough for themselves that yea, they've been able to kinda enjoy life, go on some vacations, buy a house, have some kids.

When you look in the backend you see that their zeal and drive to carve out a life for themselves was channeled into fuel for capitalism, for someone else's benefit. You were allowed to keep a hefty portion for yourself, but not without kicking up to the guy at the top of the pyramid. Very, very few people have the capacity to subvert this process.

In life, there is no way around having to work to earn your freedom, even if you work for yourself (unless you were born with money). I'm sure there are plenty of dropouts who do so out of laziness or just being too stupid, but I'd also argue that opting out on ideological terms can be a valid and honorable choice. On the other side of it, hustle culture is fucking insufferable.

What would Jesus do?

[Ciderpress]

CEO's also work, I'm not sure why this is news to so many people. In fact, they are among the hardest working personality type, which is why they become the boss. They will not continue to be the boss without working. And now 20-something retards like luigi want to murder them. They deserve their pay.

Nothing but bald-faced envy masquerading as some kind of high-minded social awareness. Good job luigi, that guy's innocent children don't have a dad anymore.

[SorenVC]

Scientifically, we don't really know yet. At scales larger than subatomic particles, things generally work deterministically, that is, acting in an intricate and unbroken chain of causality stretching back to the Big Bang. Everything you have ever done or ever will do was determined at the instant of creation.

Quantum mechanics revealed some qualities of the universe that appear to behave probabilistically. There was a huge debate between Einstein and the determinists on one side and Niels Bohr and the quantum mechanics/randomness kooks on the other (this is where Einstein's "God Does Not Play Dice" quote came from. Most scientists these days lean toward randomness being real but there are still things like hidden variables theories (the guys who won the Nobel prize in Physics in 2022 won it for dunking on these hidden variables people).

There are still holdouts in the determinism camp, like superdeterminism, which basically argues there is an underlying deterministic godhand behind every supposedly 'random' result. This is probably unfalsifiable and is closer to a religion than a scientific theory.

So if probability is a real quality of the universe, it is very much possible that you actually have free will, that you are actually making your own decisions-- but it feels unlikely and I'll explain a few oblique ways it could be possible:

1. Orchestrated Objective Reduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction): Argues that the microtubules in the neurons of your central nervous system bridge our consciousness with the quantum realm, and allow us to collapse wave functions as a singular entity to create our objective reality and essentially act as a quantum computer. Seems like mystical woo-woo shit right? Well consider that 100 years later we still have no fucking idea how general anesthesia works, we can't find a mechanism anywhere in the cells of our brain. But a few interesting studies in the last few years have found a connection to microtubules. Most consider this theory to be bullshit.

2. Allegory of the Cave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave), or Idealism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism): We entirely create or singularly experience our own reality, like a stream of data into a receiver. At the instant of observation, when the wave function collapses, and a pixel of the universe transforms from a wave function (data), to a particle (reality), it provides its 'causal history' contained within the wave (in the form of its energy, direction, amplitude etc). Was any of it actually real?

Einstein, questioning the apparent absurdity of quantum mechanical explanations for reality, famously was like "So you're saying the moon isn't there when I'm not observing it?". And the quantum mechanics/randomness people were like "You can't prove that it is". And they were right. Our observations, or at least the objective collapse of a wave function, have the power to ret-con their own history through time. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser) This can also be explained as: they are neither a particle or a wave, they are nothing at all until we create/observe them. Indistinguishable from the fabric of the universe and reality.

In this paradigm, reality is nothing more than a stream of data, and we make real choices with our free will, and the stream constructs a plausible deterministic history. This would have some power in explaining things like synchronicities and the collective unconscious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity), basically themes in the fabric of the dream. (Interestingly, this idea came from a collaboration between Carl Jung, an analytic psychologist, and Wolfgang Pauli, one of the originators of quantum mechanics, both mystics).

Basically:

https://i.imgur.com/zzWBiyT.jpeg

I don't believe in your over-complicated intellect science nonsense! Real enthusiasts know that earth is flat! The proof is all over reddit on globeskepticism.
https://www.reddit.com/r/globeskepticism/

Yes, I am hereby exposing myself, SorenVC, as a flat earther! I have researched this good enough and I am 100% certain that the surface of earth is flat as your eyes can see it. Mountains of evidence are to be found on this subreddit. Even if you don't believe it, just leave a mean comment like a normal person on those posts, or open your eyes and realize the truth that earth is flat.

It is like a GTA map, flat plain surface with some mountains and buildings. All proof is on globeskepticism and I will not debate on this because it is useless. If you are a glober or globie, you will continue to believe the NASA lies. Let me tell you, these lizard people are very real, the lizard peepul are among us, and they are hiding in high positions of government! That's why the world goes to shit right now. So keep believing in your magic free will, or come to the dark side and realize the truth that earth is flat. Your choice. Or is it?

[SorenVC]

Science is not a trustable source of information anymore. They have failed us with covid masks, invented viruses like covid, global warming, gender war (wtf???), they have given us obunga as president, and the lizard are laughing at us by giving us fake cgi from NASA. also the 2 planes that brought down 3 skyscrapers, are not real, they were edited in using video compositing, a reknowned hollywood technique. That's not my own finding, but some youtube comment said that, and I have read all the youtube comments surrounding this topic and considered this one made the most sense. Because that third building got demolished and collapsed into itself without any plane.

It works like this. You have one video of a plane flying normally in the sky and you have another separate video of a skyscraper being blown up with thermite. You combine these two videos using video compositing and you have bush nine-eleven.

thermite caused this that was installed in months long lasting elevator repairs. they have said the elevators were infunctional, so they sent a team and installed thermite in them, rejecting entrance of the bureau workers to those specific stages, and then they bombed those buildings with the installed thermite, and it looks just like a demolition. conspiracy alert. not for the faint of heart! but this makes more sense, than the official story, and I'm tired of pretending it does not! If you want to ban me from this forum now, please don't, because I like this forum, just consider me a crazy lizard person and ban me to the realm of retarded autistic people, because I have asperger.

[SorenVC]

Now only because there's some too many co2 or somethin' we have to drive electric cars. Good Lord! I was happy with my VW Diesel Passat and they want me to drive a Tesla now! Those MONSTERS!!!!

[Ciderpress]

There isn't too much co2, it's like not even close to being too much yet. Coral reefs are thriving, the ozone hole is shrinknig, the LA skyline which used to be yellow in 1970 is now blue.

[SorenVC]

There isn't too much co2, it's like not even close to being too much yet. Coral reefs are thriving, the ozone hole is shrinknig, the LA skyline which used to be yellow in 1970 is now blue.

Well here in Germany we are shutting down nuclear reactors for the good of climate! Even though PORSCHE and the other car companies don't want to build electric cars anymore, we are still shutting down the energy fields. Don't know why to be honest. Even more reason to believe in fatalism! Because some things are not logical and defy logic itself! It must be fatalism! Right?!

[SorenVC]

I didn't even go to vote in Germany the last 3 times because it's like voting for Coke or Pepsi. It's all the same! Everything is equal! Whether you vote nazism or communism, it doesn't make a difference!

[Ciderpress]

Soren you use a highly inordinate amount of exclamation points, and because I'm internet savvy I know that means you're probably being ironic or insincere in some way. What do you actually believe?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I think wage slave more implies non-meaningful work that doesn't bring fulfillment to your life, to some people that even means being a doctor (high suicide rate when they find out what the job actually is, basically a 7 minute assembly line for some healthcare corp).

The complaint is more as follows: Even if you're insanely skilled and competent, and work hard, there are very few paths to financial independence and fulfillment that don't involve being a toadie in some CEO's downline. Yes, if you excel in your work, you are able to leverage a larger piece of the pie for yourself, but as long as you are an employee and not an owner, most of the proceeds of your excellence are just going into someone's yacht fund. Fast forward 30 years, the vast majority of people have spent 10 hours a day 5 days a week carving out enough for themselves that yea, they've been able to kinda enjoy life, go on some vacations, buy a house, have some kids.

When you look in the backend you see that their zeal and drive to carve out a life for themselves was channeled into fuel for capitalism, for someone else's benefit. You were allowed to keep a hefty portion for yourself, but not without kicking up to the guy at the top of the pyramid. Very, very few people have the capacity to subvert this process.

In life, there is no way around having to work to earn your freedom, even if you work for yourself (unless you were born with money). I'm sure there are plenty of dropouts who do so out of laziness or just being too stupid, but I'd also argue that opting out on ideological terms can be a valid and honorable choice. On the other side of it, hustle culture is fucking insufferable.

What would Jesus do?

I do agree it is harder than ever to support oneself and no longer the case where a man can support an entire family on his income alone

However, some of the benefits to working, as I see them are:

1. You are doing your community a service. There is no dishonorable job. From a garbage truck driver to a dishwasher to a CEO, you are doing a positive thing for your community. Pat yourself on the back. You are a champion

2. It puts you on a schedule. Retirement is a killer for one main reason: we are built to move and have purpose. Lose your purpose, stop moving, and you die. Well, much faster anyway

3. It helps keep your socialization in practice, for most jobs. Most Reddit bro recluses that are using TEH EVIL CAPITALISM as an excuse to not work are often human women repellant. And friend repellant. They are often loners with no social skills and are doing whatever they can to ensure that they don’t have to do any exposure therapy aka socialization practice to get better at socializing. Let’s just be a hermit forever and hope after I die that someone will notice the smell in a few weeks, yadda yadda

4. Going along with 3, it creates opportunities for those who develop social skills to network. People date co-workers, co-workers sometimes become roommates and best friends

That’s just off the top of my head, there are numerous other benefits

And what’s the alternative? To waste away in some parent’s basement complaining online about not being able to feel fulfilled in many jobs?

It may suck, or seem like it sucks (I don’t think it sucks even with a low paying job due to those benefits plus more) but it’s better than any alternative

[SorenVC]

Soren you use a highly inordinate amount of exclamation points, and because I'm internet savvy I know that means you're probably being ironic or insincere in some way. What do you actually believe?

I drank two Gin-Tonics 2 hours ago and still drunk. When I was 16 I was diagnosed with undifferentiated schizophrenia, asperger and psychosis. Since then I taking Olanzapine pills, those anti-psychotics, 10 mg every night. Been to a psychiatry twice and all my female therapist is doing is prescribing me more pills. I am lonely as can be and I spend my day working out or playing Left 4 Dead 2 or reading books. Last year I have read the entire Bible from start to finish and then the 3 books of Enoch.

All it has done is strengthen my belief in fatalism because Christians believe in Jesus or God which would not exist without a Bible, which is a physical book, meaning those Christians source their faith on something materialistic which the Bible is. If God was real, he would speak without needing a huge book with many words that say nothing. My white Order of the Eastern Star Bible has over 700 pages. I learned nothing. Let me be the first ultra-fatalist in the world. Everything is fatalism. There is no thought needed to let go of your beliefs and become a fatalist. Don't go to vote for those harmful political parties. Don't vote and become free!!!!

[SorenVC]

I am 28 years old right now and I take Olanzapine since I'm 16 years old. I've heard it messes with your brain chemistry. Well all it did for me is to sound crazy and unhinged on the internet and make me the opposite a quiet shy person in real life. I will live a lonely life but it works! I can go to work and pretend to be a normal person! Hail Olanzapine! Hail psych meds! It helps guys. Trust me.

[Lune]

On the one hand it's clearly some insincere form of parody but on the other, it's unhinged in a way that is kind of sincere

[Reiwa]

Fatalism is pointless it just sounds cool.

https://i.imgur.com/X3U7PCp.png

[Reiwa]

i9nWB5XifBI

[shovelquest]

i9nWB5XifBI

-YAhpfcdx0U

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I am 28 years old right now and I take Olanzapine since I'm 16 years old. I've heard it messes with your brain chemistry. Well all it did for me is to sound crazy and unhinged on the internet and make me the opposite a quiet shy person in real life. I will live a lonely life but it works! I can go to work and pretend to be a normal person! Hail Olanzapine! Hail psych meds! It helps guys. Trust me.

It’s probably moreso the ASD making you quiet and shy IRL than anything else. That’s pretty common. Def some benefits though from ASD in terms of your thinking and ability to dial in

I am also a Christian like you, and one thing you could try is going to Church? In most Christian churches they force us to socialize and greet one another with a handshake and saying “God’s peace” to everyone around you at the start of every congregation

If you want to continue to meet people a lot of Christian churches do a singles group sometimes after their sermons. Or you can do volunteering. For example I’ve built beds for low income families who had kids sleeping on the floor with a church group of about 20 people. It was fun!

[Lune]

ItÂ’s probably moreso the ASD making you quiet and shy IRL than anything else. ThatÂ’s pretty common. Def some benefits though from ASD in terms of your thinking and ability to dial in

I am also a Christian like you, and one thing you could try is going to Church? In most Christian churches they force us to socialize and greet one another with a handshake and saying “God’s peace” to everyone around you at the start of every congregation

If you want to continue to meet people a lot of Christian churches do a singles group sometimes after their sermons. Or you can do volunteering. For example IÂ’ve built beds for low income families who had kids sleeping on the floor with a church group of about 20 people. It was fun!

Forcing people who actually have ASD to socialize solely on others' terms is counterproductive and leads to autistic burnout. People with ASD never habituate, they simply become better at masking, most uncomfortable situations for them will never become second-nature. This is one of the reasons suicide is the leading cause of "preventable" death for autistic people and why one of the hallmarks for a diagnosis of high functioning autism is cycles of growth and implosion centered around major life milestones. Mask, unravel, decompensate, implode, repeat, often early in college or early in their first 'real job'.

That being said I imagine church would be as good a place as any for him to do some socializing without overloading.

I see a lot of shy, 'introverted', or socially inept people who say "Fuck it, I don't need anyone else, I'm happy being alone and that's what I will do". What they don't know is that no matter who you are, if you have a human brain, lack of social stimulation is as bad for your neurological health as pretty much anything. The neurological and cardiovascular risks of social isolation rival those of smoking, (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10357115/#:~:text=Additionally%2C%20a%20meta%2Danalysis%20o f,or%20social%20isolation%20%5B31%5D.) even in the absence of subjective report of loneliness. Additionally, if you subjectively report loneliness, even in the absence of social isolation, the outcomes are just as bad.

Like the rest of our body, our nervous systems are very much 'use-it-or-lose-it', and we devote an immense amount of our white and gray matter to everything that goes into socializing, from fast and accurate interpretation of nonverbal and context clues, to navigating social relationships, all while integrating these things into a robust and accurate theory of mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind).

So autistic people in particular are doubly fucked because they are born with a deep flaw in those functions that they can never actually fix. With great effort, the sharp ones can learn to mask and function, but it will always be more effortful for them to function at a level that is normal for non-ASD individuals. And then if they withdraw entirely, their brains atrophy.

[shovelquest]

Now do incels.

[Lune]

Now do incels.

p sure the ASD / incel venn diagram is a circle

Though I'm convinced the reason so many neurodivergent people are around, genetically, is because before civilization they could have dialed in and picked a lot of fucking berries, or invented a water wheel or something and thus would have been admitted to the gangbang

9IOBUeArU5w

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Forcing people who actually have ASD to socialize solely on others' terms is counterproductive and leads to autistic burnout. People with ASD never habituate, they simply become better at masking

Source? And am I obligated to find many to the contrary? I have a cousin who was very obviously ASD and my uncle his adoptive father forced him to socialize and he went from having no friends to graduating college, working many diff jobs, and now having his first gf and relationship at around 23ish now

God damn that’s some good masking broheim, he has to do it like all day. Or maybe

Just maybe

He got better at socializing and learned how to self-soothe. ASD doesn’t mean socially stunted for life, and maybe telling people that could be seen as very disempowering. But common from people on the left, remember the crusade to convince black people they have no shot because of systemic systems?

[rest I skimmed but agree]


So autistic people in particular are doubly fucked because they are born with a deep flaw in those functions that they can never actually fix. With great effort, the sharp ones can learn to mask and function, but it will always be more effortful for them to function at a level that is normal for non-ASD individuals. And then if they withdraw entirely, their brains atrophy.

With no source cited and again, I’m sure I could find sources to the contrary if you want to go back and forth for a while. Regardless, is is far better to encourage the possibility of growth and participation than it is to disempower with cynical pseudoscience

It is harder, it will remain harder than a neurotypical person. Leave it at that because anything more rigid, like I said, is just cynical pseudoscience pessimism

[Reiwa]

Scientifically, we don't really know yet. At scales larger than subatomic particles, things generally work deterministically, that is, acting in an intricate and unbroken chain of causality stretching back to the Big Bang. Everything you have ever done or ever will do was determined at the instant of creation.

Quantum mechanics revealed some qualities of the universe that appear to behave probabilistically. There was a huge debate between Einstein and the determinists on one side and Niels Bohr and the quantum mechanics/randomness kooks on the other (this is where Einstein's "God Does Not Play Dice" quote came from. Most scientists these days lean toward randomness being real but there are still things like hidden variables theories (the guys who won the Nobel prize in Physics in 2022 won it for dunking on these hidden variables people).

There are still holdouts in the determinism camp, like superdeterminism, which basically argues there is an underlying deterministic godhand behind every supposedly 'random' result. This is probably unfalsifiable and is closer to a religion than a scientific theory.

So if probability is a real quality of the universe, it is very much possible that you actually have free will, that you are actually making your own decisions-- but it feels unlikely and I'll explain a few oblique ways it could be possible:

1. Orchestrated Objective Reduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction): Argues that the microtubules in the neurons of your central nervous system bridge our consciousness with the quantum realm, and allow us to collapse wave functions as a singular entity to create our objective reality and essentially act as a quantum computer. Seems like mystical woo-woo shit right? Well consider that 100 years later we still have no fucking idea how general anesthesia works, we can't find a mechanism anywhere in the cells of our brain. But a few interesting studies in the last few years have found a connection to microtubules. Most consider this theory to be bullshit.

2. Allegory of the Cave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave), or Idealism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism): We entirely create or singularly experience our own reality, like a stream of data into a receiver. At the instant of observation, when the wave function collapses, and a pixel of the universe transforms from a wave function (data), to a particle (reality), it provides its 'causal history' contained within the wave (in the form of its energy, direction, amplitude etc). Was any of it actually real?

Einstein, questioning the apparent absurdity of quantum mechanical explanations for reality, famously was like "So you're saying the moon isn't there when I'm not observing it?". And the quantum mechanics/randomness people were like "You can't prove that it is". And they were right. Our observations, or at least the objective collapse of a wave function, have the power to ret-con their own history through time. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed-choice_quantum_eraser) This can also be explained as: they are neither a particle or a wave, they are nothing at all until we create/observe them. Indistinguishable from the fabric of the universe and reality.

In this paradigm, reality is nothing more than a stream of data, and we make real choices with our free will, and the stream constructs a plausible deterministic history. This would have some power in explaining things like synchronicities and the collective unconscious (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity), basically themes in the fabric of the dream. (Interestingly, this idea came from a collaboration between Carl Jung, an analytic psychologist, and Wolfgang Pauli, one of the originators of quantum mechanics, both mystics).

Basically:

https://i.imgur.com/zzWBiyT.jpeg

Post war scientists are all on the skooma.

[Reiwa]

I think wage slave more implies non-meaningful work that doesn't bring fulfillment to your life, to some people that even means being a doctor (high suicide rate when they find out what the job actually is, basically a 7 minute assembly line for some healthcare corp).

The complaint is more as follows: Even if you're insanely skilled and competent, and work hard, there are very few paths to financial independence and fulfillment that don't involve being a toadie in some CEO's downline. Yes, if you excel in your work, you are able to leverage a larger piece of the pie for yourself, but as long as you are an employee and not an owner, most of the proceeds of your excellence are just going into someone's yacht fund. Fast forward 30 years, the vast majority of people have spent 10 hours a day 5 days a week carving out enough for themselves that yea, they've been able to kinda enjoy life, go on some vacations, buy a house, have some kids.

When you look in the backend you see that their zeal and drive to carve out a life for themselves was channeled into fuel for capitalism, for someone else's benefit. You were allowed to keep a hefty portion for yourself, but not without kicking up to the guy at the top of the pyramid. Very, very few people have the capacity to subvert this process.

In life, there is no way around having to work to earn your freedom, even if you work for yourself (unless you were born with money). I'm sure there are plenty of dropouts who do so out of laziness or just being too stupid, but I'd also argue that opting out on ideological terms can be a valid and honorable choice. On the other side of it, hustle culture is fucking insufferable.

What would Jesus do?

The valuation and growth of CEO stock compensation has nearly nothing to do with the day-to-day activities of the business. Nothing is stolen.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Post war scientists are all on the skooma.

Doubt it’s even science

I doubt any licensed counselor who specializes in ASD leads (even to the parent) with “well your socially stunted child will never improve their social skills. But maybe we can teach them to mask their lack of improvement for the rest of their life”

Outcomes you believe, to some extent you can create

[Reiwa]

I don't believe in your over-complicated intellect science nonsense! Real enthusiasts know that earth is flat! The proof is all over reddit on globeskepticism.
https://www.reddit.com/r/globeskepticism/

Yes, I am hereby exposing myself, SorenVC, as a flat earther! I have researched this good enough and I am 100% certain that the surface of earth is flat as your eyes can see it. Mountains of evidence are to be found on this subreddit. Even if you don't believe it, just leave a mean comment like a normal person on those posts, or open your eyes and realize the truth that earth is flat.

It is like a GTA map, flat plain surface with some mountains and buildings. All proof is on globeskepticism and I will not debate on this because it is useless. If you are a glober or globie, you will continue to believe the NASA lies. Let me tell you, these lizard people are very real, the lizard peepul are among us, and they are hiding in high positions of government! That's why the world goes to shit right now. So keep believing in your magic free will, or come to the dark side and realize the truth that earth is flat. Your choice. Or is it?

Everyone mainstream is a flat earther bud (https://www.amazon.com/World-Flat-History-Twenty-first-Century-ebook/dp/B000U913GG?crid=1OE8EUJA6KJB0&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.P2_6SQdgdqlGXB4-3HXGiA2WL57VXZzzYRC3lamKy3OxuLKS74zuf3PP7X2MdSfRbk PGA2lGb49UrWGKXDMWnL9WuujZkNfdQkH2tqhX1MgKp96qp4G5 lA9q7e6F4sIJKmony7HA-G6_KOUsa2q--KPvQgVP3WHxPKYQdMAW99kzdW5he9I_eEqUxDdBOhyWhpAOjUj mAkIjJbgHnseS9EabJYu5-s2Uar_vDynyDFA.EH8lU8EQ1C133B_OF6VgXi4Y3_4s_ReunOI CDMYMuAc&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+world+is+flat&qid=1742877448&sprefix=the+world+is+fl%2Caps%2C369&sr=8-1)

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51txu0D+rSL._SY445_SX342_.jpg

[Reiwa]

Jib should we hit him with Lil' Timmy Boom-Boom's self-elegy (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51642/invictus)?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

One of the signs that my cousin had (and diagnosed) ASD, until he was in his late teens when he was done talking he was done. You could be in mid-sentence and if he’s done, he’s leaving. And you’d be left trailing off like “welp that’s that then”

It wasn’t that he was mad. Or even disappointed. He was just done. He also used to do the intense out of context ASD stare

Luckily his warped stunted brain learned how to stop doing that. Sorry I mean mask it. And now in conversation most people can’t even spot his mask, because his facial expression and mannerisms have completely changed with a decade of forced daily hours of practice with peers

Maybe we need to euthanize him and put his brain under a microscope, for science. Jk ;)

[Reiwa]

Click for Hot Babe in your area - For Jesus! (https://christiancourier.com/articles/timothy-mcveighs-invictus)

You know, that's actually good enough to change it.

[shovelquest]

Medical instruction on how to raise kids today is basically just do what Adam Sandler does in Big Daddy.

[Lune]

Source? And am I obligated to find many to the contrary? I have a cousin who was very obviously ASD and my uncle his adoptive father forced him to socialize and he went from having no friends to graduating college, working many diff jobs, and now having his first gf and relationship at around 23ish now

God damn that’s some good masking broheim, he has to do it like all day. Or maybe

Just maybe

He got better at socializing and learned how to self-soothe. ASD doesn’t mean socially stunted for life, and maybe telling people that could be seen as very disempowering. But common from people on the left, remember the crusade to convince black people they have no shot because of systemic systems?

[rest I skimmed but agree]



With no source cited and again, I’m sure I could find sources to the contrary if you want to go back and forth for a while. Regardless, is is far better to encourage the possibility of growth and participation than it is to disempower with cynical pseudoscience

It is harder, it will remain harder than a neurotypical person. Leave it at that because anything more rigid, like I said, is just cynical pseudoscience pessimism

https://www.autismcrc.com.au/sites/default/files/reports/3-076RI_Autistic-Burnout_Final-report.pdf

Like I said, socialization is still necessary, ASD or not, but forcing someone with ASD to act neurotypical, telling them they will just adapt and eventually become neurotypical, represents a severe misunderstanding of the diagnosis. Many of these people who go down this path (see statistics above) go on to live immensely stressful, draining, unrewarding lives and end up killing themselves.

ASD people can mask their way into all kinds of jobs, relationships, and achievements, and many will even be lucky enough to get themselves into an environment that is accommodating. ASD does indeed mean socially stunted for life lol, that's part of what the diagnosis is. The fact that they can mask and adapt to function doesn't change the underlying deficit.

I think we fundamentally like 80% agree, all I'm saying is for ASD the emphasis should be more on 'knowing yourself and making healthy, informed choices in life that accommodate your strengths and weaknesses' vs. 'Suck it up and act normal bro'.

Tyla Grant, 24, holds down a full-time advertising job, is trying to get a nonprofit off the ground and creates regular content for her podcast, YouTube channel and Instagram. Occasionally, she winds up so fried she can’t speak or get out of bed for days.

Ms. Grant is also autistic. While most people undergo periods of burnout — physical, cognitive and emotional depletion caused by intense, prolonged stress — autistic people, at some point in their lives, experience it on a whole different level. Autistic traits can amplify the conditions that lead to burnout, and burnout can cause these traits to worsen. They may become unable to speak or care for themselves, and struggle with short-term memory. This harms their ability to perform well at jobs, in school or at home.

“It’s the point at which there’s no more of you left to give. The battery’s dead. Tyla’s left the chat,” she said. “Whatever you want from me, you’re not going to get.”

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control estimates that, as of 2017, 2.2 percent of adults in the United States — nearly 5.5 million people — are autistic. That’s almost certainly an undercount; many in the autistic and research communities believe that women and people of color are underdiagnosed.

Autistic burnout is a concept already widely accepted in neurodivergent communities, but it hasn’t been formally studied much. Research does show that autistic people have a harder time keeping their heads above water in ways that are similar to burnout, and some experts offer advice on how to deal with it.

Autism and mental health.
A wide range of life stressors contribute to autistic burnout, according to a small 2020 study led by Portland State University researcher Dora M. Raymaker. Those include being forced to hide their autistic traits (often called “masking”), managing the disabling aspects of autism and coping with a world that expects autistic people to perform at the same level as their non-autistic peers.

Participants of the survey described barriers to support, such as having their experiences and differences dismissed by others, a lack of external support and an inability to take breaks.

Beyond this study, there are few published papers about autistic burnout, but similar conditions can help fill out the picture. For instance, in one 2020 study, 20 percent of autistic adults had been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, compared to just under 9 percent of non-autistic adults.

Some of that anxiety stems from peer rejection or from being ostracized for autistic traits, such as a deep interest in a specific topic, researchers found. Autistic people are also simply more vulnerable to anxiety; they’re more sensitive to sensory input and their nervous systems are more likely to react strongly to stress, according to the study.

Autistic adults are also more likely to feel suicidal; a 2018 study published in Molecular Autism found that 72 percent of autistic adults scored highly for suicide risk, compared to 33 percent of the general population. Numerous studies have found a connection between burnout and suicidal thinking in non-autistic adults in a wide range of professions, including medicine and policing.

For autistic people, a number of factors contributed to their suicidal thoughts, including self-harm and masking, as well as not having their support needs met, according to the study.

Burnout can erode independence.
Political reporter Eric Michael Garcia agreed that rest is a key remedy for autistic burnout, and he’s noticed, as he gets older, that it takes him longer to recharge. Mr. Garcia, 30, experienced his first extended period of autistic burnout while covering the 2016 elections. At first he thought he was just working too much, but a debilitating fatigue hung over him for a month.

Soon after, he started noticing autistic people writing about burnout. Many of his peers, he said, spend all their energy trying to perform well at work and come home too exhausted to tend to other needs, such as cooking healthy meals, taking out the trash or sustaining friendships and relationships.

In his book “We’re Not Broken: Changing the Autism Conversation,” Mr. Garcia wrote that when non-autistic people experience burnout, no one doubts their ability to live independently. But for autistic adults, a burnout state can lead loved ones and medical professionals to question their self-sufficiency, and even suggest they move home with family. Many can remain independent by having a live-in or occasional support person who can help with shopping, cooking and bills, he wrote.

Ms. Grant sitting at her local park. It’s important for autistic people to find ways to rest an recharge when facing burnout.Credit...Amara Eno for The New York Times
Image

Mr. Garcia at his apartment in Washington, D.C. He said his first experience with burnout in 2016 stayed with him more than a month.Credit...Greg Kahn for The New York Times
Sleep is challenging — but crucial.
Autistic burnout isn’t a permanent state, however. One of the best ways for anyone to recover from burnout is rest, particularly sleep, according to Amelia Nagoski, the co-author of the best-selling 2019 book “Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Response Cycle.” But autistic people have a harder time sleeping because of their neurological differences, according to a 2019 study.

Autistic people are more likely to sleep for shorter periods of time and experience lower-quality sleep, and they’re more likely to be night owls, the study found. Research on non-autistic adults shows that insomnia is a strong predictor of burnout, suggesting a similar link among autistic people with sleep disorders.

Ms. Nagoski, 44, addressed autistic people’s sleep woes in a recent YouTube video. “This essential thing that is fundamental to wellness is harder for autistic people,” she said. She was diagnosed with autism in 2020, and launched her channel, Autistic Burnout, to offer advice and resources to people experiencing the condition.

All the usual sleep-hygiene tips apply to autistic people, including avoiding screens near bedtime, making sure the room is sufficiently dark and cool, and taking a shower to make your temperature drop afterward, which tells your body it’s time to sleep. But autistic people have to follow this advice more diligently, and even then, she said, it’s “more effort for less result.”

Find social connection that works.
Rest isn’t the only remedy for autistic burnout. Connecting with others is a significant way to alleviate burnout for non-autistic adults, Ms. Nagoski said, and may be helpful. But many autistic people misread social cues, take statements literally and are uncomfortable with touch.

Ms. Nagoski (with her twin sister and co-author, Emily Nagoski) recommends 20-second hugs and six-second kisses for neurotypical adults because they release the hormone oxytocin, but “those never worked for me,” she said. Instead, she recommends finding community through social media, where the #actuallyautistic and #autisticburnout hashtags help people find one another on most large social media platforms.

Ms. Grant finds herself making trade-offs when it comes to friendships. When people ask to spend time with her, she often declines, in order to protect her energy. But her autism already strains her friendships. “Just saying ‘no’ isn’t that easy, especially when you’re used to saying ‘yes’ just to keep your friends,” she said.

Ultimately, one of the best ways to keep autistic people from burning out will be to increase accommodations in workplaces, schools, hospitals — anywhere they might spend time, Mr. Garcia said. Each autistic person may need different supports, such as quiet spaces to work, longer lunch breaks, alternative lighting, predictable schedules or the ability to have a support person with them. But there needs to be adequate motivation for those spaces to change, or autistic adults will continue to burn out more intensely than their peers, he said.

Autism is still largely considered a childhood condition, as though those children don’t grow up and continue to be autistic. As more and more people are diagnosed, “there are going to be more autistic people graduating college and in the work force,” Mr. Garcia said. Because autistic people have such differing needs, “it may be impossible to determine a uniform policy,” he said. “But it does need to be addressed.”

[shovelquest]

Ultimately, one of the best ways to keep autistic people from burning out will be to increase accommodations in workplaces, schools, hospitals — anywhere they might spend time, Mr. Garcia said. Each autistic person may need different supports, such as quiet spaces to work, longer lunch breaks, alternative lighting, predictable schedules or the ability to have a support person with them. But there needs to be adequate motivation for those spaces to change, or autistic adults will continue to burn out more intensely than their peers, he said.

So I have to live and work in a giant open air mental hospital then.

Great.

B8sgkc2E5oM

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Family dinner at an awesome restaurant this past Saturday

The one with the (for some reason tiny) red boxes around is my cousin. Diagnosed ASD at a young age. No friends and suicidal in school. His dad my uncle forced him to socialize and obviously wasn’t a tyrant forcing him to go to packed stadium football games and rock concerts to start

And that’s him obviously masking his rolling panic attack by smiling there with his gf next to him. Chatting us up. His adoptive dad is sitting behind him

[Reiwa]

So I have to live and work in a giant open air mental hospital then.

Great.

B8sgkc2E5oM

Longer lunch breaks and a personal assistant to do your work for you?

Ok I'm autistic then.

BIL told me that's half the premise in Severance.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

https://www.autismcrc.com.au/sites/default/files/reports/3-076RI_Autistic-Burnout_Final-report.pdf

Like I said, socialization is still necessary, ASD or not, but forcing someone with ASD to act neurotypical, telling them they will just adapt and eventually become neurotypical, represents a severe misunderstanding of the diagnosis. Many of these people who go down this path (see statistics above) go on to live immensely stressful, draining, unrewarding lives and end up killing themselves.

ASD people can mask their way into all kinds of jobs, relationships, and achievements, and many will even be lucky enough to get themselves into an environment that is accommodating. ASD does indeed mean socially stunted for life lol, that's part of what the diagnosis is. The fact that they can mask and adapt to function doesn't change the underlying deficit.

I think we fundamentally like 80% agree, all I'm saying is for ASD the emphasis should be more on 'knowing yourself and making healthy, informed choices in life that accommodate your strengths and weaknesses' vs. 'Suck it up and act normal bro'.

Now it’s “burnout”? I thought before it was stunted, skimmed around and didn’t see the word stunted. Burnout is good, it’s all about language you see? We all have a social gas tank. You don’t need a college think tank to figure out that people on the ASD spectrum most likely have a smaller than average one. But I’m glad that work was rewarding for them

You aren’t going to convince me that (RESPONSIBLE, APPROPRIATE) practice is anything but completely necessary or I will go Nero in defense of my cousin (super underrated performance by him btw, that dude always delivers):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VFUqVeQg-Yg

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Lune: These studies show that if you don’t put soft gloves on their hands and lotion on their backs before they try to practice they’ll probably kill themselves

I have talked to by now hundreds of autistic kids and adults on the daily in my job. Ones that are so low functioning as to be non-communicative, or make a loud humming after every sentence, and all the way up to high functioning and everything in between

They’d told as soon as they don’t want to they can leave. Sometimes there’s other strangers in the room

They get through it much more comfortably than your cynical pseudoscience suggests. Know what the most accommodations I have to make to get them actively engaging and interested? Sometimes don’t make eye contact and banter while doodling and showing them the doodles. That’s it, at absolute most

I don’t care what your studies say, I have 16 years experience actively talking to clients. They are far less socially stunted than you are trying to paint, but dont let me stand in the way of your discouragement

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

^
“Just take your kids to the Autism Center for Excellence where they practice things like only 6 second handshakes and two back pats with a gentle humming ambience”

Yea, those kinds of places aren’t around in most parts of the city, especially the poorer ones. There are Day Programs for the lower functioning ones, and that’s about it. That leaves it up to parents and adults with ASD to figure out other ways to practice socialization as best they can

For an adult 28yr old who I think has the intelligence and mental capacity to leave church if he felt uncomfortable, can accomplish going to church. I don’t think this suggestion will result in him killing himself, but I’m sure he appreciates the reminder

To the OP: I still suggest church, you can leave any time, just go as far as you can

[Trexller]

I still suggest church, you can leave any time, just go as far as you can

I go to church like 3/4 weeks a month. that one I miss is usually a Sunday that I wake up and I'm like nahh F it today, maybe I'll watch the service on youtube.

Sometimes I get something good out of the service, sometimes it's boring. But after I leave the church if I ask myself, "Was going to church today better than not going to church today?" The answer is always yes.

The place is just overflowing with positivity and love, for no real tangible reason, it's just the nature of the people who are the church I guess.

That's always my answer when people ask why i go to church or are curious about the faith, it's just better to be a part of it than not be a part of it.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I go to church like 3/4 weeks a month. that one I miss is usually a Sunday that I wake up and I'm like nahh F it today, maybe I'll watch the service on youtube.

Sometimes I get something good out of the service, sometimes it's boring. But after I leave the church if I ask myself, "Was going to church today better than not going to church today?" The answer is always yes.

The place is just overflowing with positivity and love, for no real tangible reason, it's just the nature of the people who are the church I guess.

That's always my answer when people ask why i go to church or are curious about the faith, it's just better to be a part of it than not be a part of it.

Yep. Believe it or not, I had taken into consideration that in actuality, the kind of people at church have a good amount of emotional intelligence and tolerance for other’s social struggles. If someone is going to have high amounts of anxiety, typical church folk are very likely to be empathetic and understanding especially to a first timer. Church has always been and will always be a place for the lost

But of course a Leftist I imagine doesn’t go or has a completely different perspective on church. And fair enough. But I know the culture of most Christian churches which was exactly why I suggested it. Man I shoulda mentioned the 10 studies that show a 3.7% chance of suicide though

[Trexller]

Man I shoulda mentioned the 10 studies that show a 3.7% chance of suicide though

3.7% chance of suicide among christians? these are not favorable odds lol

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

3.7% chance of suicide among christians? these are not favorable odds lol

Lol no. I was just peeved because Lune wanted to sound smart, so he acted like my church suggestion was so overstimulating to a socially stunted man trying to permanently mask his complete inability to progress socially that he might end up becoming disenfranchised and killing himself because some studies (he pasted some) show it’s harder for people with ASD for a multitude of reasons

I know it’s harder, and I know the risks, I still suggested it regardless

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

And before this angle is taken, no I don’t suggest church for every person. I agree that church has a very positive energy and generally wholesome community, but he had already expressed a deep interest in Christianity which I don’t think is a religious preoccupation symptom despite him being on an antipsychotic. And didn’t he say he has a driver’s license talking about past vehicles? I didn’t study every word but the impression I got was that he is functioning on a level where he could mentally handle church, eventually. I’m not his life coach or counselor but the process is just go as far as you can and try to go a little further each time

I have seen an adult woman with schizophrenia who was having delusions all day have a complete psychotic episode at church and the nice church ladies who have rapport with her got her isolated to a smaller room and comforted her while reaching out to mental health help. If someone is going to have a problem, it’s not a bad place to have one. You notice I didn’t suggest the DMV? Or the post office? Or my Uncle’s Halloween party?

I also never suggested “just act normal bro” and adapting to function is still adapting. I also never claimed the person would just adapt their way to being completely neurotypical. But I think it’s just as safe to suggest improvement as it is to suggest stagnation and suicide

[Trexller]

I also never suggested “just act normal bro” and adapting to function is still adapting. I also never claimed the person would just adapt their way to being completely neurotypical. But I think it’s just as safe to suggest improvement as it is to suggest stagnation and suicide

you're also extremely qualified to offer that kind of advice

bean counter style data driven approaches to mental healthcare is the worst way to go about it, but it sure makes it easier to monetize

keep it up SorenVC, I'm also somewhere on the autism spectrum and other forms of crazy

Get into nature, I wish I could hike the mountains of Deutschland

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

you're also extremely qualified to offer that kind of advice

bean counter style data driven approaches to mental healthcare is the worst way to go about it, but it sure makes it easier to monetize

keep it up SorenVC, I'm also somewhere on the autism spectrum and other forms of crazy

Get into nature, I wish I could hike the mountains of Deutschland

I personally believe a lot of it is experience based. But honestly when dealing with just snippets of information over the internet, a lot is common sense as well

If I recall, the dude had already mentioned not having a gf and being alone multiple times, therefore I personally would take an approach of how can we change this versus “there are people out there who are totally happy alone even though you don’t seem to be. But you need to socialize because if you don’t your brain will cannibalize itself”

I mean, it’s possible to change being alone and do it in a way that doesn’t result in endless failure burnout and suicide. I think hopefully we agree on that. We might disagree on the method, but like I said, Autism Centers for Excellence to teach very Socially Stunted Men How to Carry Themselves in Public” don’t exist on every city street corner. I wish they did. But people in lieu of that will have to make do with what they have available. And a lot of that is going to be mainstream stuff

[SorenVC]

I asked the female priest in the mental hospital in January what I could do to get a wife and she said to go to church. I will try but it's scary! I have too much anxiety... What do you even do in an evangelical church when you go there first time? Just to pick up a Bible and listen and read along?

[Jimjam]

I think Free Will rebranded to Good Guys?

[Ciderpress]

I think Free Will rebranded to Good Guys?

They merged with seal team (seal team is a reference to the military see)

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I asked the female priest in the mental hospital in January what I could do to get a wife and she said to go to church. I will try but it's scary! I have too much anxiety... What do you even do in an evangelical church when you go there first time? Just to pick up a Bible and listen and read along?

It’s fine to start small. For someone who has difficulty going out in general, any of these could be seen as a victory:

- Going and just checking out the building from the outside

- If you are up for it, going in and asking for a paper pamphlet of the program. Normally there will be a greeter there who might try to shake your hand and invite you in. If you’re not up to it, all you would need to say is something like “I don’t have time this morning unfortunately. I was just in the area and interested, maybe next week though!” Something like that, just say you don’t have the time atm

- If you were up for it you could ask if they have a YouTube channel with their sermons recorded, a lot do. Take down that info, then go home and do some recon by watching a sermon from home. This is just to get an idea, it would still be recommended to try in person still at a future point because the experience is better in person

- If at any future point you do sit in, and it’s too much, you can always leave at any point. People will assume you are using the bathroom because it’s the most likely reason. No one will hassle you for leaving and very likely everyone will not even notice. Going in and staying a while then leaving early is also still a victory

[shovelquest]

These studies show that if you don’t put soft gloves on their hands and lotion on their backs before they try to practice they’ll probably kill themselves

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

That was probably me being too harsh. Lune and I agree probably 80% or more. He’a completely correct that it is more difficult in all the ways mentioned. I have a slight disagreement on practicing socializing on “his terms” because his terms have been not doing it. So no matter what, any type of practice is not going to be on his terms

Would it be better to set up something like an Everquest-themed small get together with people (or one person) that understand mental health and ASD? Absolutely. Would it be setting him up to fail to suggest going to the bar and trying to act normal bro? Absolutely

So he’s almost completely correct on all points it’s just that in the real world where everything can’t be controlled clinically sometimes ya gotta work with what ya got

[shovelquest]

Why can't we just demand excellence and you and lune can go build a mental hospital commune?

[shovelquest]

dirty little boys getting a free pass not on my watch!

https://www.tiktok.com/@lemonmeringuecookie/video/7483218062615842079

[shovelquest]

tfw the autism kicks in after you've been gloved and lotioned your whole life.

rAmHASdsV14

[shovelquest]

tfw you retire after your "outside the box" thinking made the company millions.

https://www.tiktok.com/@engineer.everything/video/7268826326511930666

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Why can't we just demand excellence and you and lune can go build a mental hospital commune?

Just needs two things:

1. Holistic - Nutrition, physical health and fitness, fine arts, skill development

2. In the woods, limited or no screen time

And as long as it was affordable I guarantee there would be a wait list of clients months long

[Lune]

Just needs two things:

1. Holistic - Nutrition, physical health and fitness, fine arts, skill development

2. In the woods, limited or no screen time

And as long as it was affordable I guarantee there would be a wait list of clients months long

Given that psychiatry is an infantile and ineffective science I guarantee this would be more effective than like 80% of psych wards out there

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Speaking of mental health, my Keurig just flooded with boiling water and did nothing for the second morning in a row this morning as I was getting rdy for work

So, deprived of my coffee and running late I decided “Let’s make it official, jackass! Let’s make it official!”

Sometimes it feels good to throw something

(I have a fancier new one I had won in a work raffle that’s been sitting in my truck since Christmas….)

[Trexller]

“Let’s make it official, jackass! Let’s make it official!”


N9wsjroVlu8

[Jimjam]

Given that psychiatry is an infantile and ineffective science I guarantee this would be more effective than like 80% of psych wards out there

I've been doing a lot of reading recently on the social, cultural and political forces which influence psychiatric diagnosis (and whether psychiatric diagnosis is even useful). Super interesting and a lot of good points raised, although I do find some of the arguments against it either aren't well formulated or well expressed (or can equally be applied to alternatives or general medical / scientific practice).

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I've been doing a lot of reading recently on the social, cultural and political forces which influence psychiatric diagnosis (and whether psychiatric diagnosis is even useful). Super interesting and a lot of good points raised, although I do find some of the arguments against it either aren't well formulated or well expressed (or can equally be applied to alternatives or general medical / scientific practice).

I’ve never been a big fan of psychiatry. I will never stop suggesting to clients to try counseling and cognitive/behavioral changes first because there are no side effects to these. I will never stop reminding parents that we still to this day don’t completely understand the complete effects of mental health meds on a child’s developing brain

However

It also to some degree depends on the category. Antipsychotics when used on-label can work amazingly well and keep someone with a severe psychotic disorder stable and able to function and even maintain careers/relationships. Whereas without the meds the person would either be actively hallucinating and delusional all day….or dead

Benzos also work amazingly well for their intended function to temporarily tranquilize the nervous system. Assuming they are used responsibility and rarely

Antidepressants and mood stabilizer’s benefits are far more opaque. Some mood stabilizers work well for someone with a bi-polar diagnosis, but mood stabilizers and other medical meds like seizure meds or beta blockers are sometimes used to treat various other things

Stimulants to control childhood and adult ADHD also don’t seem to be as sure of a science. Stimulants of all meds have had some of the most disastrous widespread problems during the adderall and Ritalin days

[Ekco]

I’ve never been a big fan of psychiatry. I will never stop suggesting to clients to try counseling and cognitive/behavioral changes first because there are no side effects to these. I will never stop reminding parents that we still to this day don’t completely understand the complete effects of mental health meds on a child’s developing brain

However

It also to some degree depends on the category. Antipsychotics when used on-label can work amazingly well and keep someone with a severe psychotic disorder stable and able to function and even maintain careers/relationships. Whereas without the meds the person would either be actively hallucinating and delusional all day….or dead

Benzos also work amazingly well for their intended function to temporarily tranquilize the nervous system. Assuming they are used responsibility and rarely

Antidepressants and mood stabilizer’s benefits are far more opaque. Some mood stabilizers work well for someone with a bi-polar diagnosis, but mood stabilizers and other medical meds like seizure meds or beta blockers are sometimes used to treat various other things

Stimulants to control childhood and adult ADHD also don’t seem to be as sure of a science. Stimulants of all meds have had some of the most disastrous widespread problems during the adderall and Ritalin days

i got sent to rehab as a minor which is a whole other crazy story but in rehab one of the other kids told me to tell the doc i was on everything so i'd get fun meds, was a interesting 2 months and only time I've taken them

craziest drug ive ever taken i think is one i was prescribed while there, was one of those serotonin ones but i forgot the name, was a big tablet that dissolves under your tongue and tastes like oranges? lol.

insanely crazy dreams, i basically tripped balls for 60 days straight and my mom's insurance paid for it.

[atomicpaul]

the xanax the docs used to prescribe me were orange-flavored and dissolved under the tongue. but i'd wager there's more than one drug that does that.

when i was in rehab there was some dude who had fried his brain on some kind of megadose of a hallucinogen, they had to give him thorazine to get him to stop running around screaming or cornering women and being creepy. they had shot versions and dissolving tablets for him.

[shovelquest]

Now they don’t give drugs like Xanax because all the poors that get free healthcare have just been using it to get addicted to drugs.

[SorenVC]

Someone on drugs.com said that Olanzapine is the same as Xanax, just a sedative.

https://www.drugs.com/comments/olanzapine/

This is the only website on the internet where people can give reviews to their medication.

I'm not a fan of psych meds but I am addicted to Olanzapine and have to take them for life. I tried to quit it last time went 10 days without sleep, went to the doctor and cried really hard and he sent me to a mental hospital for the second time in my life, and here I am, back with 10 miligrams of Olanzapine.

[atomicpaul]

Now they don’t give drugs like Xanax because all the poors that get free healthcare have just been using it to get addicted to drugs.p sure it started with alcohol for most people, but i know you despise the poor or you wouldn't be maga

[Ciderpress]

p sure it started with alcohol for most people, but i know you despise the poor or you wouldn't be maga

I suppose you think dems are the ones who really care about "the poor".

They don't; they just hate the rich out of sheer envy. Big difference.

Doesn't matter how or why you became rich, dems will hate you and take as much of your money as they can. That's not even remotely a morally coherent worldview.

Oh and the cherry on top is that they're also insanely rich themselves. I always get a tickle out of millionaires complaining about billionaires like looool.

[atomicpaul]

lmao dems don't care about the poor either, but nice try. capitalism requires poor people to exploit, democrats are capitalists. you have more in common with them than i do.

every billionaire is a policy failure

[Ekco]

commies have a bad track record at middle and upper management, as a peasant they frighten me equally

[atomicpaul]

just wait until you experience a natural disaster. the communism inherent to human nature often surfaces around then. chuds be failing the social cohesion test. the richest man in the world is the president and he thinks the problem with the west is its empathy. lol

[shovelquest]

just wait until you experience a natural disaster. the communism inherent to human nature often surfaces around then.

We did 5 years ago.

https://i.imgur.com/xvPTIDf.gif

https://i.imgur.com/cEtcnEI.gif

[atomicpaul]

buddy there's nothing natural about covid, whether it was made in a lab or not. avian flu only festers because of industrialized agriculture.

[shovelquest]

buddy there's nothing natural about covid.

Oh so like, you're talking about when Jesus shows up.

Yea, yall commies will definitely group up then, it's not gonna work out how you hoped though.

[Ciderpress]

lol communism.

Here's the problem with communism; it has a track record that is easily observable. People who live\lived in communist countries flee them for capitalist countries. I guess somebody should explain to them that what they were desperately escaping was actually cool and good.

Elon musk employs thousands of people and puts food on their family's tables by doing so. People who unironically call for billionaires to be killed clearly don't give a shit about those employees or their families' well being at all. So no, they aren't nearly as compassionate as they smugly imagine themselves to be.

[atomicpaul]

cucked by a man he has never and will never meet. i need no lecture on compassion from a chickenhawk.

the richest man in the world is president, the net worth of his cabinet is like a trillion dollars and they're still acting like some kind of counterculture movement.

oh well, the other shoe drops eventually.

[shovelquest]

cucked by a man he has never and will never meet. i need no lecture on compassion from a chickenhawk.

the richest man in the world is president, the net worth of his cabinet is like a trillion dollars and they're still acting like some kind of counterculture movement.

oh well, the other shoe drops eventually.

Explain to me how you were cucked? I'm curious exactly how.

[SorenVC]

Elon Musk and Trump are controlled opposition. It's a setup. The world has been ruled by the same bloodlines for the past 6000 years.

"The lizard peepul walk among us."

https://mileswmathis.com/fear2.pdf
https://mileswmathis.com/hiller.pdf
https://mileswmathis.com/trump.pdf

For reference and more .pdf:
https://mileswmathis.com/updates.html
https://mileswmathis.com/bestfake.html

[Lune]

Elon Musk and Trump are controlled opposition. It's a setup. The world has been ruled by the same bloodlines for the past 6000 years.

"The lizard peepul walk among us."

https://mileswmathis.com/fear2.pdf
https://mileswmathis.com/hiller.pdf
https://mileswmathis.com/trump.pdf

For reference and more .pdf:
https://mileswmathis.com/updates.html
https://mileswmathis.com/bestfake.html

This is the quality schizo shit that gets me up in the morning

[Trexller]

Elon Musk and Trump are controlled opposition. It's a setup. The world has been ruled by the same bloodlines for the past 6000 years.

can we have an entire thread on this topic please

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Someone on drugs.com said that Olanzapine is the same as Xanax, just a sedative.

https://www.drugs.com/comments/olanzapine/

This is the only website on the internet where people can give reviews to their medication.

I'm not a fan of psych meds but I am addicted to Olanzapine and have to take them for life. I tried to quit it last time went 10 days without sleep, went to the doctor and cried really hard and he sent me to a mental hospital for the second time in my life, and here I am, back with 10 miligrams of Olanzapine.

It’s tough, because we wouldn’t know whether your insomnia without it is just a withdrawal symptom, because some psych meds when stopped, especially suddenly and not tapered down, can cause (usually psychological) withdrawal symptoms. It’s different than being “addicted” though, not like people get addicted to alcohol or street drugs. That is because you don’t have the other characteristics of an addict such as a desire to continue taking greater quantities, a major negative impact on your health/finances/social life caused by the drug that you are ignoring. Those are the characteristics of “addiction”. For you it is just moreso that your body and brain are temporarily dependent on the drug, meaning without it, you have some withdrawal. Actual addiction is more than that, it means the person is damaging other areas of their life due to the drug

But again we don’t know whether your insomnia is just withdrawal or due to some other mental or physical condition

I’ll mention my experience in seeing olanzapine (zyprexa is the brand name): normally years ago I only tended to see it with adults with Serious Mental Illness (just means that for them their symptoms are more severe) status. Usually with a psychotic disorder diagnosis like schizophrenia. Without the medication, they would be hallucinating, delusional, etc

More recently I have been seeing a LOT more olanzapine, the last client I saw today was on it, and so have about 3 other clients I have seen this month. In each of those circumstances, these were clients who had a developmental disability. I’m assuming (and this is only a guess as I’m not a doctor or their doctor) the olanzapine was being used to treat emotional disregulation leading to extreme behaviors, basically acting out too much

It does seem to have some sedative properties, but it is not categorized as one

[SorenVC]

It’s tough, because we wouldn’t know whether your insomnia without it is just a withdrawal symptom, because some psych meds when stopped, especially suddenly and not tapered down, can cause (usually psychological) withdrawal symptoms. It’s different than being “addicted” though, not like people get addicted to alcohol or street drugs. That is because you don’t have the other characteristics of an addict such as a desire to continue taking greater quantities, a major negative impact on your health/finances/social life caused by the drug that you are ignoring. Those are the characteristics of “addiction”. For you it is just moreso that your body and brain are temporarily dependent on the drug, meaning without it, you have some withdrawal. Actual addiction is more than that, it means the person is damaging other areas of their life due to the drug

But again we don’t know whether your insomnia is just withdrawal or due to some other mental or physical condition

I’ll mention my experience in seeing olanzapine (zyprexa is the brand name): normally years ago I only tended to see it with adults with Serious Mental Illness (just means that for them their symptoms are more severe) status. Usually with a psychotic disorder diagnosis like schizophrenia. Without the medication, they would be hallucinating, delusional, etc

More recently I have been seeing a LOT more olanzapine, the last client I saw today was on it, and so have about 3 other clients I have seen this month. In each of those circumstances, these were clients who had a developmental disability. I’m assuming (and this is only a guess as I’m not a doctor or their doctor) the olanzapine was being used to treat emotional disregulation leading to extreme behaviors, basically acting out too much

It does seem to have some sedative properties, but it is not categorized as one

Multiple people on drugs.com reviews in my link state that without Olanzapine they can not sleep anymore. I'm not the only one. However, I'm one of the few who do not get fat from this drug I weigh less than 70 kg.

At this point just give me a wife with hugs & cuddles that's all I need to be happier. I had a job interview yesterday and they want me to work as a maintenance mechanic in an amusement park with rollercoasters. I hope I won't be scared from heights.

[SorenVC]

I feel SO LONELY!!!!

[SorenVC]

Also how can Olanzapine not be addictive when if you do not take it you can't sleep anymore. The 2nd time I went to the mental hospital was because I stopped taking Olanzapine for 10 days and I couldn't sleep in those 10 days then I went to the doc and cried hard and he sent me to that mental hospital.

They've tried giving me Quetiapine or something but I felt a headache for the entire day. So I take Olanzapine 10 mg now. It works but sometimes like today I stand up from bed at 11 am because it's harder to stay up with Olanzapine.

Some psychotherapists prescribe Olanzapine to patients with ONLY insomnia which is crazy. I was prescribed it when I was 16 because I refused to eat anything and was aggressive and talking rubbish. Now I only think rubbish. They said I had schizophrenia, asperger, psychosis but I already said that here. I also have OCD but I didn't tell anyone.

[Duik]

Yay for nukes.

[Ekco]

i don't believe in anything

other than fuck polls that don't have a bush towers options

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Also how can Olanzapine not be addictive when if you do not take it you can't sleep anymore. The 2nd time I went to the mental hospital was because I stopped taking Olanzapine for 10 days and I couldn't sleep in those 10 days then I went to the doc and cried hard and he sent me to that mental hospital.

They've tried giving me Quetiapine or something but I felt a headache for the entire day. So I take Olanzapine 10 mg now. It works but sometimes like today I stand up from bed at 11 am because it's harder to stay up with Olanzapine.

Some psychotherapists prescribe Olanzapine to patients with ONLY insomnia which is crazy. I was prescribed it when I was 16 because I refused to eat anything and was aggressive and talking rubbish. Now I only think rubbish. They said I had schizophrenia, asperger, psychosis but I already said that here. I also have OCD but I didn't tell anyone.

It’s just a slight difference in definition between physical dependence and addiction, I wouldn’t worry about it

If it were just for sleep, far more often I see people prescribed Trazedone. Or even hydroxizine at night

I also have insomnia, for me it’s genetic. It’s a pain in the ass. In a bad week I’ve gone 3 days in a row with zero sleep. For me it plays out in this weird mental state where I can still function during the day because my brain won’t shut off, but my body feels exhausted and I feel kinda slow and dumb. This current week has been fairly bad, I was getting 4 hours on a good night, 1-2 on a bad night. But last night I actually got like 5-6, enough to have an actual dream which I always love. You don’t appreciate dreams as much unless you never have them, I’ve felt

But yours is even worse than mine. 7+ days no sleep is nuts, for sure I would be hallucinating

[SorenVC]

It’s just a slight difference in definition between physical dependence and addiction, I wouldn’t worry about it

If it were just for sleep, far more often I see people prescribed Trazedone. Or even hydroxizine at night

I also have insomnia, for me it’s genetic. It’s a pain in the ass. In a bad week I’ve gone 3 days in a row with zero sleep. For me it plays out in this weird mental state where I can still function during the day because my brain won’t shut off, but my body feels exhausted and I feel kinda slow and dumb. This current week has been fairly bad, I was getting 4 hours on a good night, 1-2 on a bad night. But last night I actually got like 5-6, enough to have an actual dream which I always love. You don’t appreciate dreams as much unless you never have them, I’ve felt

But yours is even worse than mine. 7+ days no sleep is nuts, for sure I would be hallucinating

It's because I didn't take Olanzapine for 10 days I thought the dependency would wear off. I really didn't sleep for 10 days but I can tell you if you lay in bed with your eyes closed you will not really have poor feeling eyes. But the rest of your body feels strained and intense. And it made me cry a lot more.

At least now I know I'll have to take Olanzapine for life. I am trying to quit porn since 1st March but always at the 3rd or 4th say I keep falling back to masturbation. I want to quit masturbation because it makes me feel tired and drained and unhappy. The Christians on reddit say I have to repent and pray to stop this porn addiction but I don't see how that works.

The only prayer I like is the silent prayer from Jesse Lee Peterson. I don't really like praying - sitting down with folded hands and say something in your mind. I don't see how such a prayer does anything. The silent prayer at least makes you be still and feel stillness. I really want to quit porn and masturbation. Maybe when I get to work at the new job it'll be easier to not do it. Right now I'm jobless and have too much time.

[Ekco]

We clearly dont have free will, if you started the big bang from same parameters everything would happen the same way.

That also allows time travel to work without destroying causality or splitting realities

[Lune]

We clearly dont have free will, if you started the big bang from same parameters everything would happen the same way.

That also allows time travel to work without destroying causality or splitting realities

There is randomness though, at the quantum level. Things like half life and probability densities of electrons. So events that were not necessarily determined at the moment of creation

[shovelquest]

There is randomness though, at the quantum level. Things like half life and probability densities of electrons. So events that were not necessarily determined at the moment of creation

I agree with you! :cool: (time to rethink your opinion :p )

Is this what chaos theory in Jurassic park is? Just that random > uniformity?

I still to this day do not understand the hairs on your hand water drop metaphor.

[atomicpaul]

i want to believe in proton decay

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

I personally don’t think things could have worked out how they did without intelligent design

My cousin is a bit of a nerd and mentions that the existence of God vs atheists is the number 1 most debated topic in the country. And apparently there are like “scholars” on both sides publishing all sorts of content. And entire communities set up just to debate these things

And I am not about to start so don’t ask lol. I just believe too many signs point to intelligent design vs pure random chance

[Lune]

I agree with you! :cool: (time to rethink your opinion :p )

Is this what chaos theory in Jurassic park is? Just that random > uniformity?

I still to this day do not understand the hairs on your hand water drop metaphor.

Say you have a long chain of events. Chaos theory deals with how very small changes in the early events can have dramatic and outsize effects on the later ones. So in the case of Jeff Goldblum trying to get into the blond's pants, the presence of a tiny hair or microscopic piece of skin in the right place at the right time makes a drop of water 100x its size go in a different direction.

Maybe that drop of water then drips drops down to the tip of her elbow and causes her to itch. But shit, the spot she itches is contaminated with dinosaur ebola, which infects her when she touches her face later. So a very small initial conition (a tiny hair or piece of skin) = ebola virus far down the chain of events.

This is what he's talking about when he refers to the butterfly effect, where the flap of a butterfly's wings might cause a hurricane somewhere else 50 years later because of cosmic Rube Goldberg causality.

If probability is a thing, though, there are tiny microscopic dicerolls embedded at various points in that causal chain.

[shovelquest]

Say you have a long chain of events. Chaos theory deals with how very small changes in the early events can have dramatic and outsize effects on the later ones. So in the case of Jeff Goldblum trying to get into the blond's pants, the presence of a tiny hair or microscopic piece of skin in the right place at the right time makes a drop of water 100x its size go in a different direction.

Maybe that drop of water then drips drops down to the tip of her elbow and causes her to itch. But shit, the spot she itches is contaminated with dinosaur ebola, which infects her when she touches her face later. So a very small initial conition (a tiny hair or piece of skin) = ebola virus far down the chain of events.

This is what he's talking about when he refers to the butterfly effect, where the flap of a butterfly's wings might cause a hurricane somewhere else 50 years later because of cosmic Rube Goldberg causality.

If probability is a thing, though, there are tiny microscopic dicerolls embedded at various points in that causal chain.

It just never really clicks for me, because he says "I bet you thought the 2nd drop would go in a different direction, but tiny follicles of hair are pointing in the direction of the last water flow, so it causes the next waterflow to follow the same path."

To me that sounds more like determinism. Like, "if you know the complete picture, you can predict the path of the water."

At least that's how his description always sounded to me.

Chaos, IMO would imply that the water WOULD go a random direction, but he argues that chaos means the water droplet follows order?

Just seems that way to me. Can you help me understand? What am I getting wrong?

[Lune]

It just never really clicks for me, because he says "I bet you thought the 2nd drop would go in a different direction, but tiny follicles of hair are pointing in the direction of the last water flow, so it causes the next waterflow to follow the same path."

To me that sounds more like determinism. Like, "if you know the complete picture, you can predict the path of the water."

At least that's how his description always sounded to me.

Chaos, IMO would imply that the water WOULD go a random direction, but he argues that chaos means the water droplet follows order?

Just seems that way to me. Can you help me understand? What am I getting wrong?

Where does he say that? The 2nd drop in that scene goes in a different direction, then he explains the reasons why, imperfections in the skin, variations in topography from blood vessels, etc

Either way, chaos theory is an examination of deterministic phenomena. If all those initial conditions just happen to be the same, the sequence of events will also be the same until it hits upon a condition that is different. If you had Godlike omniscience about what every single particle and quanta of energy was doing, you COULD predict the path (-free will)..... unless, randomness is a thing.(+free will)

[shovelquest]

Oh cool thanks! You did it!

So chaos theory is: you can't do eugenics because there are too many variations to result in predictable outcomes?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

The only prayer I like is the silent prayer from Jesse Lee Peterson. I don't really like praying - sitting down with folded hands and say something in your mind. I don't see how such a prayer does anything. The silent prayer at least makes you be still and feel stillness. I really want to quit porn and masturbation. Maybe when I get to work at the new job it'll be easier to not do it. Right now I'm jobless and have too much time.

The only prayers I do are silent as well. And I only pray for other people never myself. Or if it’s for myself it’s only ever a tiny brief bit of gratitude

Like if I have an awesome night jog experience or an awesome date or something, I’ll take a quick knee and give thanks. Or sometimes I’ll just give thanks for being given another day of life

Yea quitting porn will only help when it comes to dating, for a bunch of reasons I can get into if you want

[Lune]

Oh cool thanks! You did it!

So chaos theory is: you can't do eugenics because there are too many variations to result in predictable outcomes?

There are too many things that can happen that you can't predict or control for, yes

Life... uh, finds a way