Epics Reworked

[Ennewi]

Continuing what would have derailed another, unrelated thread (https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3729792#post3729792)...

Over the years, the playerbase has been able to push each class to their limits, with a best in slot gear and an even better understanding their strengths and weaknesses thanks to how long this project has existed. The solo artist challenge comes to mind, as do specific competitive examples such as the enchanter using their gflux earring to nab the hate book.

As a result of this, it's become more apparent over time that certain epics aren't by definition all that epic. Hindsight being 20/20, what would you have changed about certain epics specifically? Better effect? A different slot or graphic? Alternatively, what did you assume would be the epic for certain classes back in the early days, after the first epic was known about?

Personally, as BiS has become more commonplace, I've grown to like the idea of skills being attached to epics, ones that a class would otherwise not have access to, with the wielder owing their advancement to a blacksmith's mastery or a god's curse. A few examples below include these, often to enhance a class in need of extra oomph.

Ranger Epic
I assumed the devs were going to reward the class with a pair of whips, given that they already had a few available to them, namely the revultant whip from hate, and other classes were assigned one-handed sword epics. Even though the class itself was never thought of as durable, the crack of whips and twang of bowstrings would have been associated with it and announced its presence in PvP settings.

Additionally, an epic bow with built-in triple attack for archery only and summon arrows proc, with the arrows including a proc of their own.

Bard Epic
As a bard main, zero issues with the epic as is. That said, the obvious alternative would have been a ranged slot epic harp that doubled as a bow with built-in archery skill. That would have complemented their pulling/kiting abilities and the unique feature of it being a ranged slot instrument would have meant one less swap for modifiers.

But again, unique sword with singing/all mod and groupwide proc? More versatile. Hard to beat. Similar to rangers though, there should have been sounds associated with or unique to the class, even if only with the epic equipped.

Paladin Epic
Either a bastard sword that converted from 1HS to 2HS (similar to vibrating gauntlets/hammer of infuse) or a dueling shield 2HB primary with proc and a chance to bash interrupt giants to compensate for them being stun-immune. Built-in block skill included.

Also, it seems like an oversight that the actual epic does not act as much of a light source (tiny glowing skull, according to Allakhazam), despite being almost entirely made up of fire. However small, that would have been a neat feature to emphasize the roleplay aspect of the class more and given 2 of the 5 races a better view at night, since not everyone had ultravision/truesight equipment back then.

Enchanter Epic
Curious what enchanter mains would have wanted instead, besides regular old HP regen? From reading, a lot of classic enchanters were underwhelmed by the clicky. Ignoring that though, a nice touch would've been to add the occasional faint hissing sound to the epic. Also, since it has the appearance of a snake, included would be built-in kick skill.

Additionally, the quest-giver shoulda coulda included a side reward of level 60 animation pet spell, summoned as a blade storm. Just because, rule of cool.

Cleric Epic
Clicky effect aside, wielding a ball-and-chain flail implied the class would be transformed into a battle cleric which wasn't the case. To match the class icon, instead of that, a primary/secondary 1HB censer that would have doubled as a small 2-slot container allowing the wielder to place various alchemy mats inside, each with a different groupwide buff.

[CrazyPro]

If the Shadowknight epic 1.0 was more like the epic 2.0 from OoW which turned all of your melee attacks into lifetaps (so basically an infinite duration Leechcurse Discipline) which, when combined with riposte AAs, made shadowknights the most powerful class in the game and even on live to this day it's a must have. If we got that instead of a lifetap DoT proc, the shadowknight epic would've been way better.

That said, you could increase the lifetap DoT proc from 50pt lifetap a tick to 100pt lifetap a tick and it would make a pretty big difference.

Enchanter epic clicky is good, but it would make a much bigger difference in the day to day enchanter life if the clicky was an upgraded version of tash. A long duration -50mr debuff with a snare component would make charming much easier to manage.

Necro epic should've had a much better clicky. A very hard to resist chunky lifetap DoT would've gotten way more mileage.

Rogue epic should've been a lot more flashy, instead of just a unique little dagger with a tiny poison dripping particle effect.

Paladin epic should've been a massive hammer.

Druid epic would've been cooler if it turned you into a little treant with some hp and mana regen as well as a +mana buff and maybe a root proc

[shovelquest]

Yes dude little tree stump halfling druids would be incredible.

[Goregasmic]

I don't have the chanter epic yet but 30 mins 66% haste is nice for charming and grouping. Wonderous rapidity is 325 mana a pop and when you have to haste 3-4 players grouping every 18 minutes it is a huge mana sink. It's also annoying to drop that much mana on a pet that will often be dead in a couple minutes. It just sucks that VOG is better. In my opinion speed of the shissar should never have existed as nobody cares about 40agi and 12ac. The stick click should be VOG.

There's a couple things that would be nicer but I think the point of an epic is enhancing a class, not remedy its shortcomings. HP regen would be nice but that's not something chanters do.

[Naethyn]

Epics have sparkles. That's all I cared about. Sorry rogues (yours is tiny.)

[shovelquest]

Rogue epic is definitely the biggest let down of them all, visually.

https://i.imgur.com/vPMlGpM.png

[loramin]

The whole Magicians having to summon their epic thing was a terrible idea. They should have just gotten two rewards at the end of their epic: the epic itself, and a spell to summon their epic pet.

[shovelquest]

The whole Magicians having to summon their epic thing was a terrible idea. They should have just gotten two rewards at the end of their epic: the epic itself, and a spell to summon their epic pet.

I always thought it was cool and RP. But I am sure someone loved the rogue epic too :D

[kjs86z2]

The whole Magicians having to summon their epic thing was a terrible idea. They should have just gotten two rewards at the end of their epic: the epic itself, and a spell to summon their epic pet.

mages having nothing but coth was a bad idea

[shovelquest]

mages having nothing but coth was a bad idea

Epic should have level 8 root ffs

[druidbob]

Wizard epic should look like an actual staff instead of its current wand design, it's literally called staff of the four

[druidbob]

As for the necro epic, I dunno who thought the duck stick was a good design but how hard would it have been to make it an actual scythe, maybe with some skull particles like the sk epic.

[strongNpretty]

As for the necro epic, I dunno who thought the duck stick was a good design but how hard would it have been to make it an actual scythe, maybe with some skull particles like the sk epic.

I always figured the necro epic was just a Sarnak head without any horns...

[Naethyn]

Wizard epic should look like an actual staff instead of its current wand design, it's literally called staff of the four

It’s 4 spires that meet at the top in a power sphere.

[shovelquest]

The necro epic, is one of the most stupid looking things created by mankind.

And I say that as someone who would literally kill anyone who says EQ has bad graphics in front of me.

It’s 4 spires that meet at the top in a power sphere.

That is cool, but, I do agree it is more of a wand.

Also the soulfire > "fIErY DeFEnDer"

[druidbob]

Also the soulfire > "fIErY DeFEnDer"

Agreed, the sword on fire looks way better than the sword made of fire

[Jimjam]

Imo it should be a fire made of swords instead.

[Jimjam]

also deity based epics

Sorry Stormlord, you'll just get a bunch of rain procs.

[shovelquest]

Imo it should be a fire made of swords instead.

https://i.imgur.com/8qWAqHW.png

https://i.imgur.com/0NGqJQQ.png

also deity based epics

Sorry Stormlord, you'll just get a bunch of rain procs.

would be cool to see a full on mod where based on your diety, youd get gear that had clickies and stats, that made the same class but different different diety, play as different as two different talent tree's in world of warcraft!

Like Innoruk warrior has more burst DPS ability clickies on its items and short term self haste clickies to up the dps. But with Less AC

And a idk Tunare warrior uses flowers for weapons instead of swords they proc charisma buffs. :p

[Ennewi]

mages having nothing but coth was a bad idea

Different versions of Highsun really should have been in the mage spellbook, the earliest stripping one buff and sending the target X distance away from the caster, in the direction faced, and the final version being similar to the bard song. It would've tied in thematically. Mobilize allies (coth, summon pet), banish enemies (highsun), extract self (gate).

It always seemed strange that mage epic pet wasn't an all-in-one elemental and why mages weren't allowed to take direct control of it, being able to swap perspectives at any time. From a roleplay perspective, it would make sense. If nothing else, that would have also helped with pathing issues in specific zones.

It just sucks that VOG is better. In my opinion speed of the shissar should never have existed as nobody cares about 40agi and 12ac. The stick click should be VOG.

That seemed to be a major point of contention.

https://web.archive.org/web/20030514002725/http://pub102.ezboard.com/fthemagicianstowerfrm26.showMessage?topicID=232.to pic

Tain Sumnr
Elementalist
Posts: 147
(9/14/02 4:14:16 pm)
Reply Re: Epic Pet?

...

enchanter- there are alot of people who want VoG instead of SoS. A spell replaced their epic effect--which is all that makes epics good...there are MANY items that have equal or greater stats.

[Ennewi]

I always figured the necro epic was just a Sarnak head without any horns...

https://i.imgur.com/ChijlKM.png

...would be my guess. Only ever seen the depiction on Bloated Belly and pianos in Mistmoore, but could be elsewhere. No idea what it's representative of.

[Ciderpress]

Change shaman epic to be not so easily cheeseable via faction manipulation. Make black fur boots clickable on other players.

Also change rogue epic so you don't have to just repeat like half the quest to get the HE mask

[kjs86z2]

enc epic should be group VoG click

[Rygar]

Imo they screwed themselves making it a weapon for melee. They knew they would be improving things in expansions and eventually become obsolete. Monk is the only exception really.

[Naethyn]

Cleric epic?

[Ciderpress]

enc epic should be group VoG click

Yes or regeant free rune v or a long duration dictate or something.

A haste that people sometimes click off to get vog instead is probably not the best thing it could have had

[Naethyn]

Problem with sos is duration.

[Duik]

So the problem with chanter epic haste is the stats not stacking? Or more. Duration as well according to naeth as well.
Sounds broken. Clicking off an epic effect sounds broken.

There appear to be selfish and shared epic effects.
War selfish but fir good reason. Hate gen good for group/raid.

Rng shared and selfish. Slow good for raid. Att and haste good for self.

Mag. Shared.

Wiz. Selfish.

Rog shared.

Dru. Dmg and snare. Good for groups but actual snare is better.

Clr SHARED!

Shm selfish. Most groups kill before damage ramps up.

Pal/Shd selfish.

Nec. Same as shm isnt it? I dunno.

I wonder if the devs thought about the effects added to epics on a overall basis. Or just pal fire sword. Shd blood sucker etc..

[Goregasmic]

So the problem with chanter epic haste is the stats not stacking? Or more. Duration as well according to naeth as well.
Sounds broken. Clicking off an epic effect sounds broken.


Wonderous rapidity (vendor): 70% haste, 18.5mins, 325mana
Speed of the shissar (epic): 66% haste +40agi +12ac, 30 mins
Visions of grandeur (kunark mob drop lvl60 spell) : 58% haste +40agi +25dex +20atk, 275mana, 42mins

WR is the most mana intensive and has shortest duration. Highest haste, good for melees with shit gear but overkill on anyone with 30%+ haste.

SotS is great because its free. Works well for people with 34%+ haste.

VOG will be in high demand for anyone with 41% haste, they prefere the 20atk over the 1% hit on haste. Cheaper mana wise and lasts 42 minutes, for that reason alone you should probably just give it to everyone if you have it to axe the time/mana you spend rehasting in half if you don't have epic.

Epic haste is only interesting because it is free and WR is bad. With WR if you have 4 melees + pet to haste you can burn over half a mana bar every 18mins just for haste. Depending on group make up, area difficulty and pull consistency sometimes I fall back on Augment (45% haste, 125mana, 36mins) to leave room to perform other tasks. Epic has its use but it is basically pure convenience except when raiding where you need to VOG anyway.

[Ennewi]

Imo they screwed themselves making it a weapon for melee. They knew they would be improving things in expansions and eventually become obsolete. Monk is the only exception really.

Yeah it seems like weapons were the default choice because of the paladin epic. It being the first and swords like Excalibur being associated with holy knights...makes sense, however limiting. If not weapons though, than what?

Again, cleric epic could have been a censer with 1-2 container slots for alchemy mats. It could have done little to no damage, so Bowl of Watery Protection or Sorcerous Bowl, but provided a groupwide buff. Either that or maybe a collection plate? With the wielder placing coins into it to maintain a passive effect.

Shaman epic could have been a dreamcatcher equipable in primary, secondary, ranged, neck slot...with the effect being? Only other item that comes to mind would be a medicine bag upgrade, granting shaman the ability to forage alchemy mats.

Bard epic...a tinkered music box? Ranged slot item that could have provided bonuses to songs. So, for example, Purifying Rhythms removing disease/poison counters as it did briefly in classic. Something along those lines.

Paladin epic...a head slot aura that enhanced all worn versions of AOB in group? And provided truesight? With worn effect +SVs, similar to white dragon helm.

Wizard epic...a primary, secondary, waist spellbook that doubled as a container, with certain spells having combo effects if a physical copy of each was placed inside?

Rogue epic...a mask would have been the obvious alternative, but with what effect?

Drawing blanks on other classes and slots.

[Jimjam]

Rogue epic...a mask would have been the obvious alternative, but with what effect?


Illusion: High Elf would draw zero roguely suspishies.

[cd288]

Cleric Epic Clicky effect aside, wielding a ball-and-chain flail implied the class would be transformed into a battle cleric which wasn't the case. To match the class icon, instead of that, a primary/secondary 1HB censer that would have doubled as a small 2-slot container allowing the wielder to place various alchemy mats inside, each with a different groupwide buff.

Since it's called a water sprinkler I always thought it was supposed to be more of a Thurible

[Ennewi]

Illusion: High Elf would draw zero roguely suspishies.

The devs were on(to) something with the Skinned Halfling Face Mask (https://wiki.project1999.com/Skinned_Halfling_Face_Mask) and being able to assume the identity of another...

https://i.imgur.com/T7Z7FeJ.jpeg

[Ennewi]

Since it's called a water sprinkler I always thought it was supposed to be more of a Thurible

Never thought to look up the name but apparently it existed? Just not in the form presented in EQ.

https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-3295
https://www.reddit.com/r/mallninjashit/comments/etypmi/a_holy_water_sprinkler_mace_pistol_once_carried/

https://i.imgur.com/XI1o6Ah.png

[cd288]

Thats pretty funny

[Rygar]

Yeah it seems like weapons were the default choice because of the paladin epic. It being the first and swords like Excalibur being associated with holy knights...makes sense, however limiting. If not weapons though, than what?

Again, cleric epic could have been a censer with 1-2 container slots for alchemy mats. It could have done little to no damage, so Bowl of Watery Protection or Sorcerous Bowl, but provided a groupwide buff. Either that or maybe a collection plate? With the wielder placing coins into it to maintain a passive effect.

Shaman epic could have been a dreamcatcher equipable in primary, secondary, ranged, neck slot...with the effect being? Only other item that comes to mind would be a medicine bag upgrade, granting shaman the ability to forage alchemy mats.

Bard epic...a tinkered music box? Ranged slot item that could have provided bonuses to songs. So, for example, Purifying Rhythms removing disease/poison counters as it did briefly in classic. Something along those lines.

Paladin epic...a head slot aura that enhanced all worn versions of AOB in group? And provided truesight? With worn effect +SVs, similar to white dragon helm.

Wizard epic...a primary, secondary, waist spellbook that doubled as a container, with certain spells having combo effects if a physical copy of each was placed inside?

Rogue epic...a mask would have been the obvious alternative, but with what effect?

Drawing blanks on other classes and slots.

Perhaps they could have kept it a weapon (which was good at the time), but given folks the option to transform it similar to that Sarnak Hammer or Warrior Epic sheath.

Would allow the weapon to change to a shield for tanking for knights, or a bow for ranger, shawl like item for casters, etc. This could also solve for players not wanting to be boxed into a 'raid utility item' (Enc/Clr epic) but swapping if they are doing group/solo play (Necro epic looking at you)

[Potus]

As for the necro epic, I dunno who thought the duck stick was a good design but how hard would it have been to make it an actual scythe, maybe with some skull particles like the sk epic.

They made it intentionally shitty to fuck with the necro community. The necro forums were filled with people who hated the devs and the devs trolled them back. See the Abashi Rod being necro usable.

Like I cannot overstate how much necros were pissed at the duck staff and that the effect for it was broken for a long time, as was the quest at one point.

Also it's weird that Shaman got Splurt as their clicky effect. Didn't seem to make sense at all.