Question On Swarming

[eddiemorales]

I was discussing swarming with someone, and he told me it’s now considered “zone disruption.” As a bard who plays six level 60 bards, I just want to say I’m truly sorry on behalf of all the bards out there who don’t care about other players. Too many of them power-level people with reckless swarms, causing others to die in the process. It’s disgusting how selfish some have become.

If I were to power-level someone in a dungeon, I would invite anyone who wanted to join so everyone could benefit — because that’s what a decent player does. This game is over 20 years old, and yet some people are still so obsessed with hoarding items and gear that they’ve forgotten the most important part of EverQuest: the community.

Now, what I’d really like to understand is this: what exactly is considered swarming? I’d love a clear definition. If I run one or two mobs in circles and AE them to death, that’s just kiting. Four mobs is quadding. So at what point does it officially become swarming? Is there a specific number of mobs?

Also, the bard’s level 54 song is an AE slow/snare, and I use it often for crowd control. What if I were running 20–25 mobs in circles with that song, but my group was killing them off one by one — would that count as swarming?

Again, I apologize for the behavior of selfish bards who give the rest of us a bad name. Thanks to them, bard abilities keep getting nerfed. They don’t care, though, as long as they get what they want. Bastards.

2. Definition on CHATGPT

Amount of Mobs That Crosses the Line
There’s no official “hard number,” but the community and dev stance generally goes like this:

1–4 mobs = normal play (single kiting, quadding, or AE crowd control).

5–15 mobs = advanced AE kiting, still considered normal depending on context.

20+ mobs consistently, especially in dungeons = swarming.

Zone disruption happens when your swarm makes spawns unavailable to others or causes deaths/lag to nearby players. That’s the behavior GMs targeted when they started calling it “zone disruption.”

Your Level 54 Song (AE Snare/Slow)
That song is legitimate crowd control — it’s designed to hold multiple mobs while your group kills them.

If you’re rounding up 20–25 mobs, snaring them with your level 54 song, and then your group kills them one by one, that’s not swarming. That’s just AE CC and group tanking-by-kiting.

It becomes swarming if you personally kill them en masse with AE DoTs/procs, not if your group is breaking them down.

[Kavious]

This post details the change and has an FAQ and may answer some of the questions

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437035

[Ennewi]

So what you're saying is, the playerbase as a whole shouldn't be punished for the actions of certain specific players? And instead those certain specific players ought to face increasingly severe punishments as a deterrent? This only stands to reason. The game ought to allow for varying playstyles, as long as the individuals involved are not interfering with others, but offering a compromise or a solution when interference does occur. That is part of the social game. Preventing one, removes the other. Example...

A small number of raiders wanted to play EQ their way and staff went out of its way to ensure that was possible, announcing it in so many words, even though these players were actively disrupting zones full of players in the process. Despite these strategies having resulted in complaints and petitions, it was still endorsed, condoned, even celebrated as new and creative (even though it was done in classic), all part of legitimate gameplay, experimenting with low numbers.

Meanwhile, a larger number of individual players AE kite, disrupting fewer players in the process (xp zones are virtually empty nowadays), yet aren't allowed to experiment and play EQ their way. An entire class has been prevented from making use of its designed features while soloing, at a time in the server's history when there are fewer groups than ever.

Players have long been allowed to take mobs from bard kites exceeding 4 mobs. Then, dots were even made to have a 25 mob limit. Now, the number of zones has been restricted.

The reasoning behind the most recent rule change isn't logically consistent. It is however consistent with the history of the server. Example... Both nec and shd have had an unclassic feature working against their design, with lifetaps seeing 100% resists by all but a few raid targets. Why? Because, long ago, certain raiders were experimenting, playing their game, hooping down raid targets.

The antosocial, extreme end of raiding and soloing just has not been punished adequately enough on an individual level. Instead, the general community and the classic game itself has been made to adjust.

[zelld52]

The antosocial, extreme end of raiding and soloing just has not been punished adequately enough on an individual level. Instead, the general community and the classic game itself has been made to adjust.

I cannot, for the life of me, decipher whether or not you are for or against bard swarming.

But agreed - the petitions around swarming on Green usually centered around 4-5 players - Repeat offenders.

It was in the same zone, typically - City of Mist.
And it was usually to serve the same purpose - PLing guild bots.

Basically these bards decided that their guild bots were more important than the 12-24+ players in the zone: who were grinding, trying to exp one mob at a time.

They would constantly (and incorrectly) quote the PnP saying things like "It's an outdoor zone, so you can only claim one spawn technically", when you would ask them to leave your group's camp on the 2nd floor, moat or arena alone. (City of Mist is outdoors, but it doesn't qualify as an "outdoor zone" because the spawn timer is longer than the typical 6:40 found in "true" outdoor zones)

Because of these few players - now every bard is scared to swarm in any zone. The server adapts to the sweatiest, rudest players - not the other way around, sadly. Such is life on p99. Maybe one day Rogaen will give up this project and we can all be free from our self-inflicted prison.

[kjs86z2]

Because of these few players - now every bard is scared to swarm in any zone. The server adapts to the sweatiest, rudest players - not the other way around, sadly. Such is life on p99. Maybe one day Rogaen will give up this project and we can all be free from our self-inflicted prison.

would you expect anything else from people playing in 2025?

[Goregasmic]

From their standpoint if dungeon kiting generated too much bullshit for them I can understand they're nipping it in the bud. If they start making convoluted rules about when you can do this and when you can't do that then there's always going to be an elf lawyer who will try to justify how it is ok to be a fucking dick to everyone. So they make a broad rule and that's that; nothing to argue about when there is no nuance. So you stop the flow of complaints AND you also don't have to deal with assholes who'll argue you to death how the zone shouldn't be technically considered a dungeon or how it wasn't actually swarm kiting they were doing.

To answer OP's question if you're swarm kiting for the sake of swarm kiting I think it is usually pretty obvious. If your group got trained and you're running the adds in circles while your group picks them off then I guess it is alright. I've seen people do this in Velks, seemed fair game to me. If it happens every pull then I guess it becomes a different story. Seeing how little manpower they have to manage CS I don't think they actively monitor bards in dungeons but I'd make sure if I chose to do "swarmkiting adjacent actions" in a dungeon I'm not giving anyone a reason to report me.

[Goregasmic]

P.S. what the fuck is chatgpt supposed to know about any of this, I'd like to see a bard argue they weren't swarming with 15 mobs on them. Use your brain.

[cd288]

Ennewi is just whining because they can't go swarm in Velks or CoM anymore

Any Bard who wasn't disrupting those types of dungeon zones wouldn't care about this rule at all. Know why? Because there are still plenty of zones where Bards can swarm kite.

Certain dungeons were just the easiest and most convenient for certain Bards to swarm (i.e., the Bards who are swarming to PL guild bots or otherwise being paid to PL people). You can always tell who those people are because they get furious about the dungeon swarming ban. Ennewi is clearly one of those Bards.

As for OP's question, there's no set number necessarily, but I would expect that anything above 4 mobs would get scrutinized.

[Zuranthium]

It should be allowed to swarm in dead zones/areas and if that content isn't being utilized then who is going to complain anyway. Just stop doing it if a group comes and wants to kill things in that area.

[Goregasmic]

It should be allowed to swarm in dead zones/areas and if that content isn't being utilized then who is going to complain anyway. Just stop doing it if a group comes and wants to kill things in that area.

That behaviour can kill zones though and you'd also have people argue over what is a dead zone. "stop doing it when a group comes in" is exactly what wasn't happening and lead us here.

[cd288]

That behaviour can kill zones though and you'd also have people argue over what is a dead zone. "stop doing it when a group comes in" is exactly what wasn't happening and lead us here.

Exactly. It leads people to not even try to do anything in the zone because they just don't want to deal with arguing with the Bard, trying to petition, etc.

It's exactly the type of player experience that zone disruption rules are designed to prevent.

[Zuranthium]

There is no argument though? It's the rule. You tell them to stop and that's it. No different than any regular instance of "kill stealing", which happens far more often.

[Goregasmic]

Exactly. It leads people to not even try to do anything in the zone because they just don't want to deal with arguing with the Bard, trying to petition, etc.

It's exactly the type of player experience that zone disruption rules are designed to prevent.

Yeah. One time in HS I was clearing entrance roamers after being there for an hour and some bard barges from a wing with a train on him and starts kiting right over me. Some of his mobs aggro me and I chose gating out was safest at this point. I ask him what's up with that and he proceeds blaming me for messing his kite and getting aggro. Dude you're kiting OVER ZONE IN at peak times what did you even expect? I let it slide but when I saw the rule change a couple weeks later I wasn't surprised.

On paper it would be possible but I think we're long past the point of trusting people to do the right thing.

[loramin]

On paper it would be possible but I think we're long past the point of trusting people to do the right thing.

I regularly buy items in the tunnel, giving my platinum first and asking the person to hand the item to my alt. And I've even gone farther than that: I've lent out key items (eg. a fungal tunic) to nice strangers I've grouped with,

How did I trust people to do the right thing? I didn't: I trusted the staff to enforce the rules they set out (including the "no fraud" one). And I similarly trust them to enforce all the other rules.

You can't pretend you need to trust players to have a rule, when everyone already trusts the staff to enforce every existing rule.

[zelld52]

I got threatened with suspension once for peeling mobs off of a bard's kite in City of Mist.

The bard was kiting the entire Arena, Moat, 2nd Floor and 3rd Floor. I had a group that wanted to move to arena. We told the bard we were moving to arena, and to stop pulling the arena mobs. The bard responded "you can only claim 1 spawn its outdoors."

I started peeling mobs off the bards 60+ mob kite and bringing them to our group. The bard send me nasty tell saying I was scrub, noob, loser, lowlife, etc for interrupting his kite. I /ignored the bard and continued to peel off his massive kite.

GM showed up and despawned a mob i peeled while group was fighting it, and told me

(paraphrasing) "let us handle these disputes, don't take your own action. Technically you broke the PnP by disrupting the bard and you are eligible for a suspension"

[shovelquest]

can try having a friend in DL send a tell asking bard to PL him for 2 or 3 kites so he can ding 56 and offer 20k per kite or something 30k per kite

100k for 3 pulls or something

just keep offering money until he leaves then have your friend lead him on as long as possible until log off.

might work.

[Ennewi]

I cannot, for the life of me, decipher whether or not you are for or against bard swarming.

But agreed - the petitions around swarming on Green usually centered around 4-5 players - Repeat offenders.


For and against. If a bard is going to do kite, work around others in zone or, if that isn't possible, do it at another hour. If players are killed as a result, rez and mana them back to full, let them in one the xp, etc. Even outdoors, if there are quadders present, leave more than enough mobs up. The resulting xp from kites is already a lot, what's a few less so others can actually multiplayer this MMO?

[Swish]

It should be allowed to swarm in dead zones/areas and if that content isn't being utilized then who is going to complain anyway. Just stop doing it if a group comes and wants to kill things in that area.

Try going into a zone full of these sweatlords and setting up camp...

Chardok AOE as an example (2016): http://i.imgur.com/vYoVP68.png


They don't want to be disrupted even though they're the ones being disruptive. It's always the way...

(the thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2285367&postcount=23))

[Ennewi]

That behaviour can kill zones though and you'd also have people argue over what is a dead zone. "stop doing it when a group comes in" is exactly what wasn't happening and lead us here.

Agreed to an extent, but so many zones are dead on blue and only zem will get them populated. That would make more sense, banning kites from dungeons that receive added zem. It would incentivize bards to group and better learn their class, and those zones would actually be populated, diverting any attention from other dungeons, save for loot.

[Ennewi]

Try going into a zone full of these sweatlords and setting up camp...

Chardok AOE as an example (2016): http://i.imgur.com/vYoVP68.png


They don't want to be disrupted even though they're the ones being disruptive. It's always the way...

(the thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2285367&postcount=23))

Who was the GM that was known for DTing and banning players for boxing on the spot? Wish there was more of that for other offenses. Makes some sense why there isn't, but still.

[ya.dingus]

Dumb rules.

This does what, prevents the 1-2 arguments among the handful of people still left playing the project?

Most zones aren't just empty, they stay empty.

[cd288]

GM showed up and despawned a mob i peeled while group was fighting it, and told me

(paraphrasing) "let us handle these disputes, don't take your own action. Technically you broke the PnP by disrupting the bard and you are eligible for a suspension"

This kind of thing annoys me. I don't mean to sound critical of the staff because they're unpaid volunteers and do the best they can for us, but if this is the rule of thumb there needs to be readily available CSR.

That rule of thumb worked back on Live because CSR was essentially available at all times and if you submitted a petition for a dispute like this one, it wouldn't take too long for a Guide to show up and take care of it. On P99 (understandably so) sometimes there's no shot of CSR showing up during the situation. So if you're not allowed to peel off the kite, then you're essentially screwed and the Bard is allowed to just keep disrupting the zone with no repercussion.

Which, of course, brings us full circle to the reason for the no swarm kiting rule.

[Goregasmic]

I think you're allowed to peel now? So if the dude had a 60 mobs kite it is possible it was prior to 25 mobs cap, peel rule and zone disruption rule but I'm not sure.

[Zuranthium]

Try going into a zone full of these sweatlords and setting up camp...

Chardok AOE as an example (2016)

There was no rule against it at the time though, and AOE was also not limited to 25.

Bards just need to have common sense now. Stop trying to swarm in a dungeon area if people show up there. If nobody cares that you're doing it, then there's no problem. GM's aren't going to police something that isn't a problem.

[zelld52]

Who was the GM that was known for DTing and banning players for boxing on the spot? Wish there was more of that for other offenses. Makes some sense why there isn't, but still.

Ugh I wish I remembered, but I saw this in person in Permafrost. The meth twins were up to shenanigans, and a heroic GM showed up and DTd the druid and banned him, so his corpse laid rotting on the floor of the bear pits for 7 days as a reminder.

[zelld52]

I think you're allowed to peel now? So if the dude had a 60 mobs kite it is possible it was prior to 25 mobs cap, peel rule and zone disruption rule but I'm not sure.

ive heard conflicting explanations of the rules from different CSR

-one told me its okay to do it, as long as its not in an attempt to get the bard killed
-one told me not to touch the mobs, petition for zone disruption and let CSR handle it

but as cd said - its rare that you actually get any CSR response when a petition is first filed, because theres like 4 total CSR staff per server.

in that particular scenario i encountered, i pointed to the fact that myself and other players had petitioned that bard in the past few days for zone disruption, for the same thing - and the CSR rep saw the old petitions and let me live on to peel another day

[kjs86z2]

if a bard is taking a fuckload of mobs in an actively camped zone, 100% rip shit off his kite

fuck em

[loramin]

ive heard conflicting explanations of the rules from different CSR

-one told me its okay to do it, as long as its not in an attempt to get the bard killed
-one told me not to touch the mobs, petition for zone disruption and let CSR handle it


There was a time (2013) when GM Sirken said:

as far as dungeons go, they are made up by camps. no person or group is allowed to own more than one camp (unless theres no other players around contesting the zone/camp). so if you are in Crushbone, or Mistmoore, or Unrest, or any dungeon, and a PLer is claiming more than one camp, the PLer has to give up one camp (as chosen by the person that owned both). if the PLer refuses to give up one of his multiple camps, you should /petition in game and then take a camp.

as far as swarm kiting bards, some earlier poster hit the nail on the head. the problem isnt that bards round up a hundred mobs; the problem is that it TAKES SO LONG to round up and then kite down the mobs, and as previously mentioned, can prevent anyone else from seeing a pop for over an hour. ive seen this in OoT, DL, and OT entirely too often, and i have told players repeatedly that if you can not find a mob because some one is kiting more than 4 of them, feel free to peel one off. no staff member is going to give a player grief for peeling 1 mob off a bard thats kiting an entire zone (or an entire island in the OoT situations).

But of course, policies can change over time, and the above quote was from long before the swarm rules change.

[Goregasmic]

Do you know if you can peel just one or one by one? Because if he's running in circles for an hour that's a long time to wait for a repop.

[zelld52]

Do you know if you can peel just one or one by one? Because if he's running in circles for an hour that's a long time to wait for a repop.

Regardless of my previous interaction with CSR - I would peel as many as I could kill one at a time, until the bard only has 4 left, or has done close to 50% damage.

[eddiemorales]

If your so intelligent define swarming

[Goregasmic]

If your so intelligent define swarming

It would seem it is kiting more than 4 mobs according to sirken.

[zelld52]

If your so intelligent define swarming

*You're

[eddiemorales]

So if I run circles in a dungeon on 4 mobs ... thats ok?

[chillybob]

It would seem it is kiting more than 4 mobs according to sirken.

disgraced ex-gm sirken quoted in the big 2025? did not have that on my bingo card

[Goregasmic]

So if I run circles in a dungeon on 4 mobs ... thats ok?

My guess would be sirken said 4 because technically you could quad as a wiz/dru in a dungeon so I'd guess so? The latest rule says "is the act of pulling a large quantity of mobs, kiting them, and utilizing point-blank AoE spells/songs to kill them." so doesn't seem as clear cut on the quantity but the action is clearly defined. But...

1- Why would you do this when you can kite 25 outside?
2- What happens if you get an add if it is actually 4 mobs?

Not sure why you'd insist on playing with fire with grey zones. The rule is clear, like, I don't think anyone would report you for kiting in a pinch but if you go kiting for kiting in dungeons and you get petitioned for disruption, I think you're done.

[Ciderpress]

Just posting to say the "this game is 20 years old!" thing is and always has been dumb, in every single p99 argument ever.

Poker is 200 years old and people still want to win that game too.

[zelld52]

Just posting to say the "this game is 20 years old!" thing is and always has been dumb, in every single p99 argument ever.

Poker is 200 years old and people still want to win that game too.

Yeah but in Poker you can win money.

Here there is no real-life win happening, only losses.

[kjs86z2]

Yeah but in Poker you can win money.

Here there is no real-life win happening, only losses.

mmmmmm, debatable in some circles

[zelld52]

mmmmmm, debatable in some circles

Unless you're a GM who's sampling raider's S.O's to give spawn times on 7-days, you're losing.

Even the RMTers lose in the end and get banned. We all lose here.

[Reiwa]

If your so intelligent define swarming

A featherless biped without talons with teats.

[chillybob]

Sirken, well known 'rule abiding' GM. Trust his dated judgement, and you CANNOT bribe him to think otherwise!

[Goregasmic]

Sirken, well known 'rule abiding' GM. Trust his dated judgement, and you CANNOT bribe him to think otherwise!

That's the little info we have. Feel free to go swarm in velks and report back on how it turned out.

[ya.dingus]

Red players going to have the last laugh when they're the only population left playing the project.

[chillybob]

That's the little info we have. Feel free to go swarm in velks and report back on how it turned out.

zone empty? no problem! do as you please :D

[Bigcountry23]

It would appear that the definition of swarming is "using snare" in a dungeon... https://www.facebook.com/groups/project1999/permalink/24390284893954348

[Ennewi]

Imagine that for other caster classes. The spellbook exists, but only a select number of pages can be used depending on a number of factors. Selos can't be used for certain FTE races. Snare songs can't be uaed in dungeons zones. Snap aggro is no longer possible in any zones. For a class that was designed to multitasking, this sure does hem it in to the point where it is hardly even versatile. A hybrid without versatility is like a skill monkey without its skills.

[Foxplay]

Imagine that for other caster classes. The spellbook exists, but only a select number of pages can be used depending on a number of factors. Selos can't be used for certain FTE races. Snare songs can't be uaed in dungeons zones. Snap aggro is no longer possible in any zones. For a class that was designed to multitasking, this sure does hem it in to the point where it is hardly even versatile. A hybrid without versatility is like a skill monkey without its skills.

The Bard Class is a PNP violation on this server. Because ppl would rather cry and petition than talk to one another. Absolute loosers

[Foxplay]

zone empty? no problem! do as you please :D

Nope PNP Violation even in empty zones. Staff would rather zones be empty and a dead server than people actually use them

[chillybob]

Nope PNP Violation even in empty zones. Staff would rather zones be empty and a dead server than people actually use them

if zone is empty nobody is there to report you, you will be fine :cool:

[Swish]

Nope PNP Violation even in empty zones. Staff would rather zones be empty and a dead server than people actually use them

Sorry that Chardok AOE is still banned :o

[littlebobby3]

Wait you can’t swarm on blue or green anymore … brother ewww