Dual wield logic

[Lyta]

I'm trying to understand how dual wield works, if i have two weapons and one has a higher attack delay than the other, which should go in main hand?

Like if i put the one with longest delay in main hand, then the other has time to go off cooldown and should always be ready when main hand attacks, conversely if the one with the shortest delay is in main hand it's delay isn't wasted waiting for the slower one.

[Snaggles]

The two weapons fire independently. You can confirm this by equipping something slow in the MH and fast in the offhand, or even a non-weapon in the MH.

What to put on each hand is more complicated. Ratio is very important but around the high 30’s (as I recall) the damage bonus on the MH increases slowly until it’s 11pts at level 60. That makes some faster weapons like the Swift Blade of Zek do more damage than better ratio weapons like the Blam Stick.

You also have to keep in mind your max hit. Those low levels you might be limited to roughly 20-30damage so speed wins over ratio.

Of course, rogues have it more complicated since most good backstab weapons have mediocre ratios and are slow. Luckily the upgrade paths are fairly well documented and the epic solves a lot of those discussions. If you are worrying about offhanding it that is a good place to be in.

If you have a specific scenario (class, level, gear) I expect we can weigh in better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To add a bit more detail to snaggles post:

Both weapons are on independent timers. For simplicity, let's say you are holding two 20 delay weapons, and you have 100% haste. This means both weapons have 10 delay. 1 delay = 0.1 seconds, so both weapons are swinging every 1 second.

Dual wield has a skill check every time you swing your offhand weapon. If you fail the skill check, the offhand swing doesn't do damage. So if your current dual wield skill gives you a 50% chance to dual wield, then on average your offhand will swing every other second, because you fail 50% of your dual wield checks. When testing this stuff yourself via parsing, remember that double attack is a thing. If you have double attack trained, you wouldn't necessarily see exactly 2x mainhand swings for every offhand swing in this scenario, as both weapons are also triggering double attacks.

Melee characters get a main hand damage bonus, which maxes out at 11 for 1 handed weapons. The main hand damage bonus is a considerable portion of your damage, so the rule of thumb for your main hand weapon is generally to use your fastest weapon. Ratio does still play a factor, so this isn't an ironclad rule. For example, Wurmslayer (25 damage/40 delay) would still do more damage than a rusty dagger ( 3 damage/24 delay), even though the dagger's delay is significantly lower.

Offhand weapons do not get a damage bonus, so you generally just want to put your best ratio weapon in offhand to maximize damage. There are obviously exceptions to this rule as well. If you have two weapons with similar ratios, but one weapon has a damage proc, the proccing weapon may out dps the other weapon, even if the other weapon's ratio is slightly better. Some weapons like Ragebringer and Swiftwind provide ATK buffs, which improve the DPS of both weapons. So that is another scenario where the ATK buff may benefit you more than using a weapon with a slightly better ratio.

[Lyta]

The two weapons fire independently. You can confirm this by equipping something slow in the MH and fast in the offhand, or even a non-weapon in the MH.

What to put on each hand is more complicated. Ratio is very important but around the high 30’s (as I recall) the damage bonus on the MH increases slowly until it’s 11pts at level 60. That makes some faster weapons like the Swift Blade of Zek do more damage than better ratio weapons like the Blam Stick.

You also have to keep in mind your max hit. Those low levels you might be limited to roughly 20-30damage so speed wins over ratio.

Of course, rogues have it more complicated since most good backstab weapons have mediocre ratios and are slow. Luckily the upgrade paths are fairly well documented and the epic solves a lot of those discussions. If you are worrying about offhanding it that is a good place to be in.

If you have a specific scenario (class, level, gear) I expect we can weigh in better.

Okay, for some reason i had the idea that offhand only triggered when main hand went off.

Can you say anything more about this main hand bonus?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Okay, for some reason i had the idea that offhand only triggered when main hand went off.

Can you say anything more about this main hand bonus?

Level 28: 1
Level 31: 2
Level 34: 3
Level 37: 4
Level 40: 5
Level 43: 6
Level 46: 7
Level 49: 8
Level 52: 9
Level 55: 10
Level 58: 11

This is your main hand damage bonus for 1h weapons, based on your level. Before level 28, you can just use the best ratio weapons in both hands. As you level up past 28, the damage bonus plays a bigger role in your DPS, so lower delay weapons start to become more desireable in your main hand.

Lets take two weapons with equal ratios, but different delays. We have a 10 damage/20 delay weapon, and a 20 damage/40 delay weapon. Without haste, and with the 11 damage mainhand bonus:

1. The 10 damage weapon would do ((10 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10 )) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 2 seconds per swing) = 630 damage per minute with 0 misses, and rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

2. The 20 damage weapon would do ((20 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10)) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 4 seconds per swing) = 465 damage per minute with 0 misses, rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

Even though the ratios are the same, the faster weapon does more damage.

Two handed weapons have higher damage bonuses than 1h weapons, based on the delay of the weapon. This table will show you what damage bonus you will get for 2h weapons based on your level and the weapon's delay:

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

[Lyta]

Level 28: 1
Level 31: 2
Level 34: 3
Level 37: 4
Level 40: 5
Level 43: 6
Level 46: 7
Level 49: 8
Level 52: 9
Level 55: 10
Level 58: 11

This is your main hand damage bonus for 1h weapons, based on your level. Before level 28, you can just use the best ratio weapons in both hands. As you level up past 28, the damage bonus plays a bigger role in your DPS, so lower delay weapons start to become more desireable in your main hand.

Lets take two weapons with equal ratios, but different delays. We have a 10 damage/20 delay weapon, and a 20 damage/40 delay weapon. Without haste, and with the 11 damage mainhand bonus:

1. The 10 damage weapon would do ((10 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10 )) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 2 seconds per swing) = 630 damage per minute with 0 misses, and rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

2. The 20 damage weapon would do ((20 weapon damage * (10 dice roll / 10)) + 11 bonus damage) * (60 seconds / 4 seconds per swing) = 465 damage per minute with 0 misses, rolling an average of 10 on your d20 roll.

Even though the ratios are the same, the faster weapon does more damage.

Two handed weapons have higher damage bonuses than 1h weapons, based on the delay of the weapon. This table will show you what damage bonus you will get for 2h weapons based on your level and the weapon's delay:

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html

But then before level 28, wouldent it make sense to put the best dps weapon in mainhand so it atleast swings 100% of the time, since dual wield skill is not maxxed here for me?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But then before level 28, wouldent it make sense to put the best dps weapon in mainhand so it atleast swings 100% of the time, since dual wield skill is not maxxed here for me?

Correct. Before level 28 you just want to use the best weapons you have.

[Snaggles]

DSM covered all the bases here!

You are certainly not alone on the MH and OH being linked. It’s very stubborn dogma still believed by many (plus it kind of makes sense that it would be true).

[Crede]

Without knowing your class or budget, 2H will generally put out superior dps relative to the cost. Like a Reaver with a 40/40 ratio will blow away most 1hnders without spending serious money and/or raiding. Best 2hnders without breaking the bank are gonna be Reaver, IFS, and Woodmans Staff.

[Goregasmic]

The formula to compare efficiency is (weapondmg x2 +dmgbonus)/delay. When in doubt math it out, there's a bunch of oddities out there so general rules might not apply to your situation.

Generally, speed kills but let's take a <28 monk for example

Adamantite club is 15/25 so (15x2+0)/25= 1.2
Jade mace is 9/18 so (9x2+0)/18=1

Slower club is better than fast mace, this remains true at 60. That's one of the few exceptions though because the club's ratio is among the best for droppable weapons. A 30/40 blam stick beats those two despite much slower delay.


Like crede said, once damage caps are lifted 2handers are often best value for the money if your class has access to them. Herbalist's spade will be close to sboz+boc combo while the former is like 6k and the latter combo 70k. A reaver is 5k and a peacebringer is 1k. You can easily swing those all the way to 60.

[Videri]

You are certainly not alone on the MH and OH being linked. It’s very stubborn dogma still believed by many (plus it kind of makes sense that it would be true).

Yeah, that misconception comes up disturbingly often. Maybe it's from some other game.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah, that misconception comes up disturbingly often. Maybe it's from some other game.

It was a misconception even back in 99, I've come across it often.

[BradZax]

The most disappointed I have ever been was when I first unlocked duel wield and i did not hit the enemy twice as much 😭

[bcbrown]

The formula to compare efficiency is (weapondmg x2 +dmgbonus)/delay. When in doubt math it out, there's a bunch of oddities out there so general rules might not apply to your situation.

Yep, that's the best rule of thumb for quickly comparing weapons. It's also good to take into account the chance of successfully making the dual wield check. If you look at https://wiki.project1999.com/Dual_Wield, about halfway down there's a table showing the chance of succeeding at levels 50 and 60, and it's about 60-70% chance.

So to continue the example, let's say you're a monk at level 50, and you have a Jade Mace (9/18), an Adamantite Club (15/25), and a Peacebringer (28/30 2hb). The 1h damage bonus at level 50 is 8, and the 2h damage bonus for 30 delay is 13. The dual wield success rate is 75.5%.

So Jade Mace mainhand/Adamantite Club offhand will be (2*9+8)/18 + (2*15 + 0)/25 * .755, or 2.35
Swap the order and it'll be (2*15+8)/25 + (2*9+0)/18 * .755 or 2.28
The peacebringer will be (2*28+13)/30, or 2.30

So even though as Goregasmic points out, Adamantite Club is a better mainhand than Jade Mace, if those are your only two weapons I'd still put Jade Mace in the mainhand.

The other thing to take into account is weapon procs. Offhand weapons proc half as often as mainhand weapons, so if you have a really good weapon proc it might be better as a mainhand even if the ratio is a little worse than other options. But at low levels your dual wield success rate might be only about 30%, so you might want to put your best-ratio weapon in mainhand and best-proc weapon in offhand, figuring that even if you won't actually swing the offhand weapon that often, you'll still get the value of the procs, even at half the mainhand proc rate.

[Goregasmic]

Yep, that's the best rule of thumb for quickly comparing weapons. It's also good to take into account the chance of successfully making the dual wield check. If you look at https://wiki.project1999.com/Dual_Wield, about halfway down there's a table showing the chance of succeeding at levels 50 and 60, and it's about 60-70% chance.

So to continue the example, let's say you're a monk at level 50, and you have a Jade Mace (9/18), an Adamantite Club (15/25), and a Peacebringer (28/30 2hb). The 1h damage bonus at level 50 is 8, and the 2h damage bonus for 30 delay is 13. The dual wield success rate is 75.5%.

So Jade Mace mainhand/Adamantite Club offhand will be (2*9+8)/18 + (2*15 + 0)/25 * .755, or 2.35
Swap the order and it'll be (2*15+8)/25 + (2*9+0)/18 * .755 or 2.28
The peacebringer will be (2*28+13)/30, or 2.30

So even though as Goregasmic points out, Adamantite Club is a better mainhand than Jade Mace, if those are your only two weapons I'd still put Jade Mace in the mainhand.

Fair points. I mentioned <28 because that's the scenario I ran the numbers on back then, with no dmg bonus you're basically dealing with 2 offhands. I've always had trouble inserting the DW variable into DPS calculations because that page has no confirmed numbers. IIRC I've seen parses more around 65% but I'm really not sure. DSM probably has it in his calculator?

Also, to add another layer of complexity, it seems(?) double attack doesn't fire from offhand until 150 or so (lvl30) so it is probably an incentive to use the better ratio in mainhand until significant damage bonus kicks in to get a bit more bang for your bucks. Low DW chance and even lower DA on OH is why people will say to not bother with 1handers when 2h damage caps are lifted but that is somewhat beyond the point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've always had trouble inserting the DW variable into DPS calculations because that page has no confirmed numbers. IIRC I've seen parses more around 65% but I'm really not sure. DSM probably has it in his calculator?


I am currently using the value 400 in my calculator for what the Dual Wield Wiki Page (https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Dual_Wield) calls "MaxSkill". I am using this value for all classes, unless someone can prove there are different values per class, as the dual wield page suggests.

According to the EQEMU code for Double Attack (https://github.com/EQEmu/EQEmu/blob/5bedbc18c420186bdd9ef94a9afa2db29922bcf4/zone/attack.cpp#L3914) and Dual Wield (https://github.com/EQEmu/EQEmu/blob/5bedbc18c420186bdd9ef94a9afa2db29922bcf4/zone/attack.cpp#L6866):

1. Double Attack Chance = (Skill Level + Player Level) / 500.
2. Dual Wield Chance = (Skill Level + Player Level) / 400. [NOTE: in the EQEMU they use 375, but 400 seems closer as the wiki suggests, and it would be easy for P99 to adjust that magic number].

In the EQEMU code there aren't any special exceptions based on class that are not related to AAs. P99 could have added class specific exceptions, but I haven't seen any evidence for this yet.

When looking at my level 52 Monk Corudoth Parse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXh1lQyRZ_A) while dual wielding:

1. 305 Offhand Crush Attempts [28 Delay / 1.34 Haste = One attack Every 2.09 Seconds]
2. 730 Primary Punch Attempts [16 Delay / 1.34 Haste = One attack Every 1.19 Seconds]
3. Fight was 552 seconds long

552 Seconds / 2.09 Seconds = 264 Offhand Crush Attempts * ((252 Dual Wield Skill Level + 52 Player Level) / 400) = 200 * (1 + ((218 Double Attack Skill + 52 Player Level) / 500)) = ~308 Predicted Secondary Crush Attempts on average.

552 Seconds / 1.19 Seconds = 463 Primary Punch Attempts * (1 + ((218 Double Attack Skill + 52 Player Level) / 500)) = ~713 Predicted Primary Punch Attempts on average.

The dual wield and double attack formulas I provided above seem correct for my level 52 Monk at least. I only riposted 11 times I think, so that wouldn't significantly affect either of these numbers.

[Snaggles]

The only helpful thing I gleaned from like an hour attacking Bloodmaw was that a level range lands .75 as many offhand attacks ad main hand attacks. A monk doesn’t have the luxury of picking two different emote styles of the same delay (ie slash and crush). You could accomplish the same thing with a timer and locking down one hand with a fire beetle eye or something.

It really doesn’t matter though. It’s the matter of if combo a beats combo b. DW or 2h it’s just a matter of the end results if parsing strictly for performance. Weighing things like procs and stats is a bit more subjective.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A monk doesn’t have the luxury of picking two different emote styles of the same delay (ie slash and crush).

Monks do have a few options for same delay weapons with different emotes if you really wanted to. The trick is to unequip Epic Fist. A level 60 Iksar Monk has a 27 Delay Fist without Epic. So you can do bare fist + https://wiki.project1999.com/Club for example. But as I showed in my previous post (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3785846&postcount=16), you don't need two weapons of the same delay to figure out dual wield chance. You just need the dual wield formula and the double attack formula.

[Defo]

Even at max skill (252) on a monk, dual wield only fires roughly 65-70% of the time, according to years of my parses.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Even at max skill (252) on a monk, dual wield only fires roughly 65-70% of the time, according to years of my parses.

Generally speaking if you want to do a proper parse, it should be in a controlled environment (https://youtu.be/kBnx9lMS3zE?si=zgUOlUkTWh4dBRJf). From experience I've learned that results can be skewed if you are parsing while playing normally.

As a simple example, you will probably miss a few swings on a fleeing mob. If you add that data to the parses you are reviewing, you have a dataset with less swings than there should be compared to the time of the fight. This would give you a lower dual wield percentage potentially.

Obviously you can't really have a controlled environment on parsing raid mobs, but testing something like dual wield percentage can be done on any mob.

[kjs86z2]

Without knowing your class or budget, 2H will generally put out superior dps relative to the cost. Like a Reaver with a 40/40 ratio will blow away most 1hnders without spending serious money and/or raiding. Best 2hnders without breaking the bank are gonna be Reaver, IFS, and Woodmans Staff.

this

not to mention less dmg taken when tanking

[Goregasmic]

Parses in the ranger thread show that 2handers are more cost effective when it comes to droppables but 1h do hold their ground. Depends how much effort you want/can put in but it is a lot closer than people claim. This comes from a big 2hander fan. But yeah, at lower levels 1handers offhand double attack suffers from the DW check and your ripostes will be weaker on top of being riposted more often. That and the odd damage shields or when you're not quick enough on enrages. With most of the 2handers previously mentioned you can pretty much coast to 60 without looking back.

I'd even put peacebringer ahead of IFS if I wanted to nitpick, just 1k and should parse slightly ahead due to IFS being 33% slower for only 4 extra damage bonus.

Spade/AP work too with less class restrictions. Exquisite also but often poor value for what they are as they're often barely above AP for like 5x the price.

[TheBlob]

Okay, for some reason i had the idea that offhand only triggered when main hand went off.

Can you say anything more about this main hand bonus?

I think this was an urban legend on live. I remember thinking I should put the faster weapon in my primary weapon slot so the offhand one would swing faster.

[bcbrown]

Fair points. I mentioned <28 because that's the scenario I ran the numbers on back then, with no dmg bonus you're basically dealing with 2 offhands. I've always had trouble inserting the DW variable into DPS calculations because that page has no confirmed numbers. IIRC I've seen parses more around 65% but I'm really not sure. DSM probably has it in his calculator?

Also, to add another layer of complexity, it seems(?) double attack doesn't fire from offhand until 150 or so (lvl30) so it is probably an incentive to use the better ratio in mainhand until significant damage bonus kicks in to get a bit more bang for your bucks. Low DW chance and even lower DA on OH is why people will say to not bother with 1handers when 2h damage caps are lifted but that is somewhat beyond the point.

Yep, as you said, when in doubt math it out. It may change as you level and the damage bonus becomes more important and DW skill increases.

The DW wiki includes a formula as well as a table for lvl 50/60, and I've found it to be accurate. The last time I parsed DW success rate was at level 51, where I found it to be 65%, matching that table. The example I gave was for monks with a higher skill cap; they should be at ~75% at lvl50 but I don't have a monk to test that.

One method for checking DW success rates was already posted, using fight duration divided by adjusted delay and then scaling by DW and DA skill checks to compute an expected number of swings and comparing to the actually recorded number of swings. That works well, but I prefer a different methodology that with a few assumptions allows you to directly measure the DA and DW success rates. Both, of course, require different weapon types in mainhand and offhand so you can tell which is which.

The central assumption is that both weapons have an adjusted delay significantly longer than one second. In that case, if you have two swings in the same second you can assume that's a double attack. So first you collect all swings or attempted swings, then count how many timestamps have a single swing and how many have two. The ratio is the double attack success rate. Then, you add the counts to find the total number of successful dual wield skill checks. Dividing the fight length by the adjusted delay gives you the expected number of swings if dual wield is always successful, and dividing the actual number of successful DW skill checks by that theoretical maximum gives you the dual wield success rate.

Here's an example from when I was level 51, Infestation offhand, 22% worn haste. There were 405 timestamps with a single piercing swing and 457 with two piercing swings, giving a 53% DA success rate. The fight duration was 1944 seconds, the adjusted delay was 14.75, and so with a 100% DW success rate you'd expect 1317 rounds of attacks. Compared to the sum of 405 and 457, that's 862/1317, or an observed 65.4% dual wield success rate.

This approach breaks down when the offhand is fast enough to potentially swing twice in the same second, so for example I can't use it with my shiny new Barbed Scale Whip.

I hadn't known that DA doesn't fire offhand till lvl30, that's interesting. My baby ranger is 30 already so I guess testing that will have to wait for the next ranger. Another interesting point of trivia for dual wield is that you can skill up while wielding a shield. Also, Jimjam once mentioned that weapon procs can fire even when you fail a dual wield skill check, which is part of why I think it can be a good idea to put a weapon with a good proc but a poor ratio in the offhand.

[Goregasmic]

Yep, as you said, when in doubt math it out. It may change as you level and the damage bonus becomes more important and DW skill increases.

The DW wiki includes a formula as well as a table for lvl 50/60, and I've found it to be accurate. The last time I parsed DW success rate was at level 51, where I found it to be 65%, matching that table. The example I gave was for monks with a higher skill cap; they should be at ~75% at lvl50 but I don't have a monk to test that.

One method for checking DW success rates was already posted, using fight duration divided by adjusted delay and then scaling by DW and DA skill checks to compute an expected number of swings and comparing to the actually recorded number of swings. That works well, but I prefer a different methodology that with a few assumptions allows you to directly measure the DA and DW success rates. Both, of course, require different weapon types in mainhand and offhand so you can tell which is which.

The central assumption is that both weapons have an adjusted delay significantly longer than one second. In that case, if you have two swings in the same second you can assume that's a double attack. So first you collect all swings or attempted swings, then count how many timestamps have a single swing and how many have two. The ratio is the double attack success rate. Then, you add the counts to find the total number of successful dual wield skill checks. Dividing the fight length by the adjusted delay gives you the expected number of swings if dual wield is always successful, and dividing the actual number of successful DW skill checks by that theoretical maximum gives you the dual wield success rate.

Here's an example from when I was level 51, Infestation offhand, 22% worn haste. There were 405 timestamps with a single piercing swing and 457 with two piercing swings, giving a 53% DA success rate. The fight duration was 1944 seconds, the adjusted delay was 14.75, and so with a 100% DW success rate you'd expect 1317 rounds of attacks. Compared to the sum of 405 and 457, that's 862/1317, or an observed 65.4% dual wield success rate.

This approach breaks down when the offhand is fast enough to potentially swing twice in the same second, so for example I can't use it with my shiny new Barbed Scale Whip.

I hadn't known that DA doesn't fire offhand till lvl30, that's interesting. My baby ranger is 30 already so I guess testing that will have to wait for the next ranger. Another interesting point of trivia for dual wield is that you can skill up while wielding a shield. Also, Jimjam once mentioned that weapon procs can fire even when you fail a dual wield skill check, which is part of why I think it can be a good idea to put a weapon with a good proc but a poor ratio in the offhand.

Yeah you can absolutely calculate it, just wasn't all that sure it was worth the time before mid 50s and I'm still using 2h almost exclusively.

For DA not triggering on offhand until 150, I wanted to test that on my 16 rogue that just got DA. I read it a couple times but I can't find anywhere that confirms it. Lately I was leveling 1hs and a had a croaking dirk in OH and I can say OH doesn't fire all that much so maybe it can DA but since DW hardly ever triggers and DA on main hand either so maybe it is possible but a statistically insignificant chance.

Didn't know you can skill DW with a shield, that's... counter intuitive. I know you can trigger a proc on a miss but never noticed you could proc on a non swing. I guess it is a byproduct of normalized proc rates, your odds are probably based on swing speed and it pops off regardless of outcome. Much simpler to land on the target value from a programming perspective that way too when you think about it.

For good OH procs on weapons with bad ratios, on one hand you'd have to find a proc worthy of gimping your damage for it but on the other hand for a class like rogue, apparently like 80% of your damage comes from MH (backstabs) so swapping for something like a locustlure OH might be worth the occasional proc if you're losing literally like, 3% of your total damage output vs a 10/18 weap in OH.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For DA not triggering on offhand until 150, I wanted to test that on my 16 rogue that just got DA. I read it a couple times but I can't find anywhere that confirms it. Lately I was leveling 1hs and a had a croaking dirk in OH and I can say OH doesn't fire all that much so maybe it can DA but since DW hardly ever triggers and DA on main hand either so maybe it is possible but a statistically insignificant chance.


Here is a video of my level 25 Warrior (https://youtu.be/GaSK9j0Fn1c?si=FNxteWbwfNnz05Xe) fighting corudoth for 35 minutes.

This video is a bit unusual, as I broke my normal rule of being consistent with buffs. I did 3 casts of Cog Boost (40% Haste), as I was mostly checking max hit.

There were 987 main hand swing attempts and 336 offhand swing attempts over 2139 seconds. My haste would be 62% for 1530 seconds (Cog Boost was 8 minutes 30 seconds duration at my level), and 22% for the rest. The average haste assuming a 50/50 split is 62 + 22 = 84 / 2 = 42% haste. Since the haste wasn't a 50/50 split, 1530 / 2139 = 0.715 * 62 = 44% Haste on average.

1. 336 Offhand Crush Attempts [30 Delay / 1.44 Haste = One attack Every 2.08 Seconds]
2. 987 Primary Slash Attempts [40 Delay / 1.44 Haste = One attack Every 2.77 Seconds]
3. Fight was 2139 seconds long

2139 Seconds / 2.08 Seconds = 1028 Offhand Crush Attempts * ((130 Dual Wield Skill Level + 25 Player Level) / 475) = ~335 Predicted Secondary Crush Attempts on average.

2139 Seconds / 2.77 Seconds = 772 Primary Slash Attempts * (1 + ((130 Double Attack Skill + 25 Player Level) / 500)) = ~1011 Predicted Primary Slash Attempts on average.

Both of the predicted numbers above track with my log results. Also looking at my logs, I didn't see any crush attempts that occured within the same second.

So at least at level 25, it doesn't look like double attack triggers on offhand. Also it looks like 475 is the correct "MaxSkill" value for warriors, as the wiki suggests.

[Goregasmic]

Here is a video of my level 25 Warrior (https://youtu.be/GaSK9j0Fn1c?si=FNxteWbwfNnz05Xe) fighting corudoth for 35 minutes.

This video is a bit unusual, as I broke my normal rule of being consistent with buffs. I did 3 casts of Cog Boost (40% Haste), as I was mostly checking max hit.

There were 987 main hand swing attempts and 336 offhand swing attempts over 2139 seconds. My haste would be 62% for 1530 seconds (Cog Boost was 8 minutes 30 seconds duration at my level), and 22% for the rest. The average haste assuming a 50/50 split is 62 + 22 = 84 / 2 = 42% haste. Since the haste wasn't a 50/50 split, 1530 / 2139 = 0.715 * 62 = 44% Haste on average.

1. 336 Offhand Crush Attempts [30 Delay / 1.44 Haste = One attack Every 2.08 Seconds]
2. 987 Primary Slash Attempts [40 Delay / 1.44 Haste = One attack Every 2.77 Seconds]
3. Fight was 2139 seconds long

2139 Seconds / 2.08 Seconds = 1028 Offhand Crush Attempts * ((130 Dual Wield Skill Level + 25 Player Level) / 475) = ~335 Predicted Secondary Crush Attempts on average.

2139 Seconds / 2.77 Seconds = 772 Primary Slash Attempts * (1 + ((130 Double Attack Skill + 25 Player Level) / 500)) = ~1011 Predicted Primary Slash Attempts on average.

Both of the predicted numbers above track with my log results. Also looking at my logs, I didn't see any crush attempts that occured within the same second.

So at least at level 25, it doesn't look like double attack triggers on offhand. Also it looks like 475 is the correct "MaxSkill" value for warriors, as the wiki suggests.

What's the DA skill max for a 25 warrior? 130? I guess this pretty much confirms what I read. We'd need to find the exact point where it starts triggering but it does confirm that DW is pretty shit if you can 2h mostly uncapped.

Do you "lose" skill points if you delevel? Unless it is already documented somewhere I have a monk that is pretty much exactly 30. I could delevel him, see if it triggers at 28 and then check again at 29 then get a whole bunch of rezzes. Or I could just get my rogue/war to 28 and see but that isn't a priority right now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What's the DA skill max for a 25 warrior? 130? I guess this pretty much confirms what I read. We'd need to find the exact point where it starts triggering but it does confirm that DW is pretty shit if you can 2h mostly uncapped.

Do you "lose" skill points if you delevel? Unless it is already documented somewhere I have a monk that is pretty much exactly 30. I could delevel him, see if it triggers at 28 and then check again at 29 then get a whole bunch of rezzes. Or I could just get my rogue/war to 28 and see but that isn't a priority right now.

Yeah double attack max skill is 130 for warriors at 25.

As far as I know, when you delevel, your skills become capped at the max for that level. So if a level 26 Warrior had 135 Double Attack skill, deleving to 25 would mean his Double Attack becomes capped at 130 until he leveled again.

[WarpathEQ]

Yeah double attack max skill is 130 for warriors at 25.

As far as I know, when you delevel, your skills become capped at the max for that level. So if a level 26 Warrior had 135 Double Attack skill, deleving to 25 would mean his Double Attack becomes capped at 130 until he leveled again.

Where are the red heads when you need them? It seems to me the meta was deleveling toons to gain significant advantage in PVP which doesn't jive with this sentiment. Maybe someone in the know can confirm.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Where are the red heads when you need them? It seems to me the meta was deleveling toons to gain significant advantage in PVP which doesn't jive with this sentiment. Maybe someone in the know can confirm.

If someone can show evidence that skills do not get capped as you delevel, that would be cool.

I don't think the practice of deleveling characters itself is evidence for this. There are other benefits to deleveling a toon. As a crude example, you need to be level 46 to enter the planes. So leveling to 46 allows you get gear you wouldn't otherwise be able to get as a low level, which is advantageous.

[Jimjam]

Where are the red heads when you need them? It seems to me the meta was deleveling toons to gain significant advantage in PVP which doesn't jive with this sentiment. Maybe someone in the know can confirm.

Initially your delevelled skill in pvp wouldn’t be subject to cap. This got nerfed on pvp servers so your delevelled skills would be capped at 5 levels above your current level. Afaik on pve servers a delevelled characters skills wouldn’t get clipped at all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Initially your delevelled skill in pvp wouldn’t be subject to cap. This got nerfed on pvp servers so your delevelled skills would be capped at 5 levels above your current level. Afaik on pve servers a delevelled characters skills wouldn’t get clipped at all.

Yeah it should be easy to test. I'd probably use Meditate as the skill to check. Compare how much mana you get per tick before and after the delevel. The EQEMU code does have checks that look at player level specifically throughout the code. So I am not sure if the check that prevents double attack from triggering on offhand swings is based on player level, skill level, or both.

[Snaggles]

When you delevel does your displayed skill via your paper doll skill menu decrease? I’ve never checked it.

The only time I legitimately deleveled (outside making EE’s at 60) was to make a Nagafen draft with my 54 wiz and then went back to click the 10 or so bodies. It still wasn’t worth it in the end.

IMHO, much of the DW vs 2h debates come down to a couple weapon sets which you can easily test under various circumstances. The toughest and most contested one is how they parse against raid targets due to short and inconsistent fights. I guess you could string together enough Vindi’s to make sense of it or just go with “best single x vs best single y”

[Goregasmic]

When you delevel does your displayed skill via your paper doll skill menu decrease? I’ve never checked it.

The only time I legitimately deleveled (outside making EE’s at 60) was to make a Nagafen draft with my 54 wiz and then went back to click the 10 or so bodies. It still wasn’t worth it in the end.

IMHO, much of the DW vs 2h debates come down to a couple weapon sets which you can easily test under various circumstances. The toughest and most contested one is how they parse against raid targets due to short and inconsistent fights. I guess you could string together enough Vindi’s to make sense of it or just go with “best single x vs best single y”

On high AC targets a lot of your hits will become minimum hits so I guess it is somewhat down to which setup can optimize minimum hit damage?

Kinda like peacebringer vs IFS. IFS has a slightly better ratio and 4 extra damage bonus but peacebringer is 33% faster. In general peacebringer is probably the better weapon until tstaff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On high AC targets a lot of your hits will become minimum hits so I guess it is somewhat down to which setup can optimize minimum hit damage?

Kinda like peacebringer vs IFS. IFS has a slightly better ratio and 4 extra damage bonus but peacebringer is 33% faster. In general peacebringer is probably the better weapon until tstaff.

The IFS vs. Peacebringer debate is a bit more nuanced, since higher delay weapons like IFS are easier to fistweave with. This obviously assumes you are the type of player that does fistweave. Not everybody likes doing it.

Too lazy to do any data analysis atm, but it's something to keep in mind.TStaff is better than both, the proc is quite nice for a bit of extra damage, and the stun saves you some HP.

[Goregasmic]

The IFS vs. Peacebringer debate is a bit more nuanced, since higher delay weapons like IFS are easier to fistweave with. This obviously assumes you are the type of player that does fistweave. Not everybody likes doing it.

Too lazy to do any data analysis atm, but it's something to keep in mind.TStaff is better than both, the proc is quite nice for a bit of extra damage, and the stun saves you some HP.

Yeah it wasn't a detailed analysis but more an example of things that could possibly be playing out differently than you'd expect on a high AC targets.

[Snaggles]

On high AC targets a lot of your hits will become minimum hits so I guess it is somewhat down to which setup can optimize minimum hit damage?

Kinda like peacebringer vs IFS. IFS has a slightly better ratio and 4 extra damage bonus but peacebringer is 33% faster. In general peacebringer is probably the better weapon until tstaff.

Yea that’s my running theory on 2h as well. It’s tough to get controlled parses on red cons but my 2h has a higher Vindi parse than my DW weapons with the ranger. With a monk the 1st and 2nd best ratio weapons are 2h so while DW sets are better than other classes, on the basis of raw dps 2h generally is the path.

I liked the PB leveling up with my monk but I only hit 50 before I stopped. The speed feels good and the price can’t be beat. It’s a slightly better ratio at 60 due to the damage bonus.

As to DSM’s point, I personally feel the timing of a 30 delay weapon even hasted is ideal if you get into the click rhythm. Objective disadvantage though for being heavier than the IFS, damage shields, and not delivering those massive ripostes.

[Crede]

The IFS vs. Peacebringer debate is a bit more nuanced, since higher delay weapons like IFS are easier to fistweave with. This obviously assumes you are the type of player that does fistweave. Not everybody likes doing it.

Too lazy to do any data analysis atm, but it's something to keep in mind.TStaff is better than both, the proc is quite nice for a bit of extra damage, and the stun saves you some HP.

I’d be curious if the tstaff is a top 3 monk weapon for soloing due to the proc mitigation. Just a ridiculously good item besides the weight

[Goregasmic]

I’d be curious if the tstaff is a top 3 monk weapon for soloing due to the proc mitigation. Just a ridiculously good item besides the weight

Can't hurt but it is a 6 second stun, you're basically saving ~2 rounds. Every little bit helps but I don't think it makes or breaks anything.

In the common monk weapon parsing thread there's your answer:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437154

Tstaff wins on damage taken but it has the highest kill speed so you're bound to take less damage if the mob gets less rounds.

[Jimjam]

Can't hurt but it is a 6 second stun, you're basically saving ~2 rounds. Every little bit helps but I don't think it makes or breaks anything.

In the common monk weapon parsing thread there's your answer:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437154

Tstaff wins on damage taken but it has the highest kill speed so you're bound to take less damage if the mob gets less rounds.

What delay are mobs on? 36? Like 16-7 rounds a min? Procing twice a minute, removing 4 rounds of attacks, is like a quarter of attacks removed!

[kjs86z2]

The IFS vs. Peacebringer debate is a bit more nuanced, since higher delay weapons like IFS are easier to fistweave with. This obviously assumes you are the type of player that does fistweave. Not everybody likes doing it.

Too lazy to do any data analysis atm, but it's something to keep in mind.TStaff is better than both, the proc is quite nice for a bit of extra damage, and the stun saves you some HP.

Its not.

IFS weighs 4, PB is 10. Thats all you need to know.

IFS --> T Staff --> Raid loot

[Crede]

What delay are mobs on? 36? Like 16-7 rounds a min? Procing twice a minute, removing 4 rounds of attacks, is like a quarter of attacks removed!

Not to mention possible spell interrupts from the stun especially since push interrupt was merged

[Defo]

30 Delay is the sweet spot for Fist-Weaving.

Monk epic fists are 16 delay, so if done correctly - you can get up to 2 rounds of fists in between T Staff swings.

Of course this works on 40 delay also, but that extra second makes it feel so much slower lol!