Tips/tools to help track group buffs on players?

[TheBlob]

Hello!

My main character is a magician so I posted here, but the question would also apply to priests. In raids, one of my roles is to keep everyone Aegis of Ro'ed (33 DS + 33 FR) against Fire AoE mobs. Since I do not know who is in which group, I find it hard to follow who received the buff and who didn't.

Right now, my "Soandso is enveloped by the Aegis of Ro" message is mixed with all spells dans melee damage, so the first step would be to create a window just for this message, but again I think I can manage if there are 3 or 4 groups, but with more people it will be hard to keep track of, especially if I need to recast on everyone every 6 min.

Any tips? Tools?

Thanks!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For Priests and Enchanters it is easier. Guild members will do a /w guild shaman and ask for buffs directly. This is because the relevant buffs last a lot longer. For something short duration like Avatar, I'll ask my group/guild if anyone needs it.

Aegis of Ro is in a weird spot, as it is a short duration group cast resistance spell. It isn't like Circle of Summer/Winter, where any group member can just periodically ask any druid for a recast.

My suggestion would be to learn who the group leaders are, and periodically ask them if they are still part of their group. Then just set a 6 minute timer and cycle though all the group leaders.

[loramin]

Simple approach: cast it on yourself first. When it runs out you'll know it's time to recast.

Of course, group buffs make this much easier, but it's viable with pretty much all Priest buffs, unless they're really expensive, you're casting them on the majority of the group, and/or you're already mana strained (e.g. from healing).

P.S. For tracking, just cast in group window order. Unless you're stoned or drunk you can remember who you buffed last, and whoever is next on the list (that needs it) gets it next.

If you don't know who is what class (so who needs what buff), that is worth taking a sec to get clear on when you join.

[bcbrown]

Here's my approach as a druid when buffing raids. While we're all organizing I'll use clicky regrowth to tell when a group's fully formed and ready for potg, and I always first cast both circles so that potg is further down the list in case of dispells. During the raid I'll wait for tells for refreshing circles, but if I notice it's faded on me I'll refresh all the groups.

Setting up separate chat windows for combat and spell effects will certainly help. In smaller raids of 3-4 groups I don't really have trouble remembering who is in what group, but I think some larger guilds have a system where each group has a group leader whose responsibilities include sending tells for any group buffs needed.

Loramin's right in that noticing when it wears off of you is a good way to tell when it's time to refresh, as long as you remember that when you cast a group buff on someone else it lands on you too, so you'd need to recast on all the groups one after the other.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Setting up separate chat windows for combat and spell effects will certainly help. In smaller raids of 3-4 groups I don't really have trouble remembering who is in what group, but I think some larger guilds have a system where each group has a group leader whose responsibilities include sending tells for any group buffs needed.


I do have separate windows for combat, spell effects, and tells. This helps for sure.

Big guilds don't really have a more advanced system. Aftermath certainly didn't from what I recall, even when we were the top guild on the server.

The thing about big guilds is they switch targets and characters more often. So it isn't really practical to keep a running list of players you need to rebuff. They will probably be CoTHed away, on another toon, or in a different zone by the time most buffs wear off. You may switch to a different toon as well based on the need. Obviously some raids take longer than others, but big guilds need to be able to operate quickly on a quake.

From my experience in big guilds, most buffs simply come from individual people /telling the relevant class. If you need a dedicated Shaman in your group for Torpors or w/e, the Shaman will handle those duties themselves without a leader telling them what to do. Big guilds generally expect their members to be more proactive. If a group needs to be formed, just do it and invite people LFG.

Aegis of Ro is a bit unique, since it is a short duration resistance spell that isn't a bard song. If your guild is only using 1 or 2 mages to buff the entire raid, then those Mages just need to step up and keep track of who they need to buff.

[Defo]

nParse is great for this, specifically.

[loramin]

Oh, I missed the raid context when I answered, my mistake. For buffing raids, I think the correct answer is "PST for *class* buffs". Expecting the buffer to remember who needs what is rough.

[bcbrown]

Big guilds don't really have a more advanced system. From my experience in big guilds, most buffs simply come from individual people /telling the relevant class.

I'm not talking about individual buffs, just group buffs. I only raided on Blue once, in Halls of Testing, but that guild had a system where whoever formed the group was the one responsible for all group buffs. So for example when my cleric died and got rezzed, instead of directly asking for POTG and C2/GOPT, the group leader made the request.

I think the idea was to prevent a scenario when multiple members of the same group ask different people for the same buff, and you get something like two different druids casting POTG on the same group and wasting a bunch of mana. Made sense to me, but like I said I only raided with them once.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not talking about individual buffs, just group buffs. I only raided on Blue once, in Halls of Testing, but that guild had a system where whoever formed the group was the one responsible for all group buffs. So for example when my cleric died and got rezzed, instead of directly asking for POTG and C2/GOPT, the group leader made the request.

I think the idea was to prevent a scenario when multiple members of the same group ask different people for the same buff, and you get something like two different druids casting POTG on the same group and wasting a bunch of mana. Made sense to me, but like I said I only raided with them once.

Personally I haven't seen a rule that requires all group leaders to be the group buff liaison in a big guild. At least when I was raiding.

I have been in plenty of groups where the group buffs were acquired by whomever. You can just cancel a buff request if you sent one out and your group got the buff already.

As I said before, big guilds want proactive players. There are obviously group leaders who prefer to be the group buff liaison. But that doesn't mean you should assume all group leaders do this. Ask your group if you can send out a PoTG request. If nobody objects, then go for it.

[Snaggles]

I’d priorize casting on tanks if single target DS and cast on you for the FR and timer. If using the group spell, keep track of who is in the tank group so you aren’t duplicating efforts and you can still use the single version on yourself.

At minimum, just make sure the MT’s have it going into a boss fight. 100% upkeep on trash isn’t as important unless it’s like the last wave of a ring war. Keeping everyone DS’d during HoT won’t be easy and you need the mana for other stuff (like mid raid coths). If people need the FR for that, they need to invest in some SV gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’d priorize casting on tanks if single target DS and cast on you for the FR and timer. If using the group spell, keep track of who is in the tank group so you aren’t duplicating efforts and you can still use the single version on yourself.

At minimum, just make sure the MT’s have it going into a boss fight. 100% upkeep on trash isn’t as important unless it’s like the last wave of a ring war. Keeping everyone DS’d during HoT won’t be easy and you need the mana for other stuff (like mid raid coths). If people need the FR for that, they need to invest in some SV gear.

Indeed. I was a bit suprised that Aegis of Ro was being used on multiple groups for resists. I guess resistance fear requirements may not be as strict in OP's guild.

[TheBlob]

We have zero resistance requirement in The Second Sons.

Concerning casting the buff on myself, I don't know if it's the same with other group buffs, but when I cast it on myself, then switch target with F7, the buff will land on the group as well as myself, so I don't need to cast it on myself separatedly. However, my Aegis of Ro will be timed with the last group I refreshed, so it might be a good idea to cast Cadeau of Flame (same timer) on me first to see when the first group needs the Aegis refreshed, if that was what you meant.

Concerning the responsibility of a single person to keep the raid buffed without getting tells, it is a challenge I am giving myself. As a magician main, and most often the only magician in the raid (except for the CotHs in the beginning), the main things I do are:

1) If advisable for the zone/target, send pet for a little DPS and manage positioning.
2) Summon mod rods behind clerics
3) If needed, summon Cancel Magic Sticks and give one to as much people as I can, managing the "Why are you giving me that?" and explaining that pullers need many of them and it's lore so I can't hoard them on myself and to give it to pullers when they ask.
4) DS on main tank but, against fire AoE mobs, Aegis of Ro on everyone in range of mob.

Since magician is a pretty simple (although very unique in raids, in my opinion) class to play, I'd like to be as good as I can in these roles, and I would be proud to be able to do all that without needing to be asked, so the raid can move smoother/faster. Also, the idea of sending tells is good when the buff lasts 30 min or more, but for a 6 min buff it would require a lot of tells. Keeping the raid buffed without needing to be asked also gives me something to do hahaha

I like the idea of having one designated person per group, but I'm not sure how I can manage that. "Can ONE person per group send me a tell so I know how many groups there are for Mass FR purposes"? I think I would ask group leaders to send me a tell not to refresh buffs, but only to know which group is which. Asking group leaders would also prevent groups where everyone doesn't know if they should be the one to send me a tell (and I receive no tell) or where I receive multiple tells. This might work. I'll start of course by having a designated window and see how it goes. I'll try this, maybe tomorrow, during our weekly HoT and tell you how it goes.

Concerning nParse, what does it do?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Concerning nParse, what does it do?

With regards to nParse, there are programs that read your log files. That is how programs like Gina work, and they are legal on P99.

You could have AI write a program for you that reads your logs and helps you keep track that way.

The program could work like this:

1. Have a macro in p99 with /w guild to get the list of players, and you say "update player list" so the program knows the /w is for that purpose.

2. Have a macro in p99 saying "start aegis of ro buff timer". The program will create an array with all of the names in the /w guild list, and a 6 minute timer.

3. When the program detects the Aegis of Ro message "Someone is enveloped by the Aegis of Ro.", it will remove those players from the array.

4. Repeat buffing until the array of names is empty.

5. This program could display the list of names not yet buffed for you in a window if you have multiple monitors.

6. Every 6 minutes the list of names is repopulated with the names from step 1.

[Snaggles]

I certainly don’t think it’s a bad thing to hand out extra damage shields, especially if aggro will be messy and they get some bonus FR. People rarely run DS’ in ring wars which blows my mind.

It’s just a matter of what’s the next step/target and casting a bunch of group spells for a class with mana recovery issues might be regrettable. Every cothed PC is a boost to the raid. Also, the more you cast group DS spells, the greater the chance you will take faction hits that need to be corrected in Kael.

IMHO the way to have fun and max out a mage is to get the DA stuff and be open to helping your raid bypass targets with train-aways.

Also as a FYI you can just cast on other groups (TGB might need to be on) without the tab to self and back. That’s really only needed when trying to throw it on a low level player that you don’t want to group with first. I know if you do that to any less than full group you get the buff as well, maybe it works for full groups too, I just can’t recall.

[Snaggles]

Also, for what it’s worth having SV gear and worts is crazy important for non-tanks. I recently picked up a white, green and black flower on the cheap. Last quake tried to max out SV’s without a bard. Fire is the tougher of them (I hit 250 with the Baton pf Flame equipped) since the white/cold flower stacks with circles.

I’m not saying SV’s should be a raid requirement but it’s going to make you melt faster on AE’s, get more torps (or deaths) and ultimately do less dps than flinching them away and keeping your hps up.

[bcbrown]

Concerning casting the buff on myself, I don't know if it's the same with other group buffs, but when I cast it on myself, then switch target with F7, the buff will land on the group as well as myself, so I don't need to cast it on myself separatedly. However, my Aegis of Ro will be timed with the last group I refreshed, so it might be a good idea to cast Cadeau of Flame (same timer) on me first to see when the first group needs the Aegis refreshed, if that was what you meant.

Concerning the responsibility of a single person to keep the raid buffed without getting tells, it is a challenge I am giving myself.

I like the idea of having one designated person per group, but I'm not sure how I can manage that.

Cool idea for a self-challenge! Yeah, that was what I meant with buff timers, and yeah you pointed out the flaw: group buffs always refresh your own buff, even when cast on another group. If there's only 3-4 groups and you cast them all back-to-back it might take 30-60 seconds from first to last, so if you rely solely on your buff fading there might be a 30-60 second gap before rebuffs. Up to you if that's good enough, and yeah casting a different spell on yourself with the same timer could make it a little more seamless.

For designating one person per group, you could also do it purely on your own. Each time you cast it, pay attention to who it lands on, and then make sure not to cast on any of those other people. You should be able to pretty quickly pick up on who's in what group, and then just keep in your head who the 3-4 people you cast on were, and just rebuff those same people. This is a lot easier when you have separate windows for combat and spells, of course.

Also Snaggles makes some good points worth listening to (although at least there's no faction hits in Halls of Testing).

[Snaggles]

^ Good call, I missed the HoT note on the follow up comment. Armor farms tend to have people of all types of gear, the mage DS is a notable bump.

You could also periodically hit a hot key asking that one person from each group send a tell for a group DS. Much of this game is showing initiative…besides the tanks, if you are offering and they aren’t accepting, tough to fix that problem.

[kjs86z2]

ah, i miss the good ole days when in order to app / be accepted to a guild you had to be inspected to meet the resist req check.

[Goregasmic]

Much of this game is showing initiative…besides the tanks, if you are offering and they aren’t accepting, tough to fix that problem.

This, on ench I'll C2/VOG/GOB who I think needs it and I'll dump a "send tell for haste/c2" message in say to pick up who I missed but sometimes I lose track of timers (death/dispels/groups changing). Depending on who the raid zone/target is sometimes you can't afford to just re-vog/gob everyone on a whim. If there's another chanter you also don't want to waste mana on overlaps so at some point the responsibility of staying buffed should fall on the player and not the buffer. Mage buffs are probably not as well known as C2 though so make sure you announce it (send tell for FR buff, stacks with circles).

[TheBlob]

We went to HoT yesterday and I cast Aegis of Ro on the MT every wurm, plus someone else sent me a tell to ask if I could Aegis on its group also (Did he read this thread? Maybe!). Finally, I asked in guild if other groups with members who could benefit from +33 FR vs wurms could send me a tell and only one other group did. So three groups total, and once I know the name of one person per group, it becomes very manageable. I recast aegis on all three people every wurm. No need to track time or anything.

When the MT changes, I only need to ask if they are in the same group as the MT before, to know if I need to adjust my list. It appears communication was the key all along :)

Aside from that and summoning rods behind clerics (they were eating them up!), I couldn't find time to manage a pet (with positioning and being ready to dismiss it if it gets blinded) so I did not use one, but I only see it as the next challenge in my quest for raiding efficiency for that tiny extra DPS.

One thing I might be interested in: I do not know a thing about how groups are formed in raids (except clerics in the same group with a bard, and maybe melees together with an off healer?), but it might help me if groups were formed to bunch together people exposed to a fire AoE together. It might not be as important as other considerations, and it might not be worth the trouble, but I'll dig a bit into it. Does anyone have a resource on group compositions in raids? If I was more confident in the way groups are formed now, I would be more comfortable adding another consideration.

Concerning resists requirements, I agree that they are important, but the way we are doing things work just fine so I am happy with that :) I think everyone wants to have more resists so the raid is more efficient. Intrinsic motivation appears to be the main motivator in TSS.

Cheers!

[bcbrown]

One thing I might be interested in: I do not know a thing about how groups are formed in raids (except clerics in the same group with a bard, and maybe melees together with an off healer?), but it might help me if groups were formed to bunch together people exposed to a fire AoE together. It might not be as important as other considerations, and it might not be worth the trouble, but I'll dig a bit into it. Does anyone have a resource on group compositions in raids? If I was more confident in the way groups are formed now, I would be more comfortable adding another consideration.

Sounds like it went well, good job! Regarding forming groups I think it's usually a pretty ad-hoc self-organizing affair, but in my experience people also tend to try to form groups where everyone's in the same role. The only constant is that there will be a cleric group with a bard, and a pulling group with the monks. Then it's whoever takes the initiative to look around to see who's LFG and start inviting. But usually all the DPS classes will group up together, and the tanks will be in a group, probably with a shaman. And usually each group that might be taking damage will have a spot healer if there's enough to go around.

Have you had a conversation with your raid leader? That might also be helpful. When our guild formed I was the first druid to hit 60, and potg would take half my mana. So I sent a message to our raid leader saying I needed his help to get everyone buffed who needed it, and at the start of the raid he took a minute to get all the groups organized and ready for potg. Aegis of Ro is a little different, of course, but explaining what you're trying to do and asking about how groups are formed might help you both.

[Snaggles]

Yep, BC is right. In HoT you can assume that every shaman is filled with people to torp. If not, that shaman should go straight to jail. If short on shamans, sometimes a Druid or two will cover melees.

Warriors are primarily tanking unslowable stuff. When there is a tank swap, especially with a warrior, make sure they get a DS.

I would use Sham’s to build a Group DS list and DS the majority of the raid rather quickly. Keep notes if any rogues, monks, rangers don’t get your AE buff message. The stragglers will likely have druids.

If any melee group has a bard but no sham the DS likely won’t help much. They should be very near the cap with circles and a bard.