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View Full Version : Bards Vs. Enchanters


Kope
08-18-2011, 02:41 PM
go!

Dr4z3r
08-18-2011, 02:46 PM
Carpal Tunnel

-or-

Everyone tells you 'C plz'

[/thread]

greatdane
08-18-2011, 02:53 PM
Bards are more generalists. They can do a lot of things and do them decently, but they aren't amazing at much of it (except kiting for exp, I guess) while enchanters do the things they do better than pretty much anyone. If the group is struggling a bit, the versatility of a bard might be preferable. If the group is strong and just wants to get stronger, an enchanter will do that better than a bard. They'll both serve the role they're made for just fine in either case.

greatdane
08-18-2011, 02:57 PM
Also, people who [/thread] in their own post have small dicks.

Kevlar
08-18-2011, 03:59 PM
in general bards are a hybrid and not a particularly strong one. They can do a lot of the things a chanter can do, but are limited by thier short song duration. For instance a bard mezzing two or three mobs can not do anything else while the chanter is locking down mobs, providing haste and mana, and adding dps with their charmed pet.

Bards do better with resist song and travel at least until you can buy the bard speed horse.

Lazortag
08-18-2011, 04:10 PM
They can do a lot of the things a chanter can do, but are limited by thier short song duration. For instance a bard mezzing two or three mobs can not do anything else while the chanter is locking down mobs, providing haste and mana, and adding dps with their charmed pet.


A competent bard should be able to twist up to 4 songs at once, so yeah you can easily mez 2-3 mobs while playing haste. I think one of the main strengths of Bards that's overlooked is their pulling ability though, they are easily the best pullers in exp groups with lull, singing steel helm, selo's for outdoor zones, cc spells they can cast while moving, and other tools. Bards are able to chain pull very reliably without sacrificing any DPS (like when a monk pulls) and usually without even needing to CC since they should be able to get only single pulls. Even if they can't CC or provide mana/haste as reliably as enchanters I'd still prefer a good bard over an average enchanter, and I'd guess that groups that use competent Bards as pullers get much faster exp than groups that don't.

Kope
08-18-2011, 04:33 PM
Even if they can't CC or provide mana/haste as reliably as enchanters I'd still prefer a good bard over an average enchanter, and I'd guess that groups that use competent Bards as pullers get much faster exp than groups that don't.

Actually an enchanter can pull as well as a bard if they know how (just not with selos obviously) and keep mana regen/haste/CC up as well.

Lazortag
08-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Actually an enchanter can pull as well as a bard if they know how (just not with selos obviously) and keep mana regen/haste/CC up as well.

The fact that Bards have an eye of zomm clickie + the ability to move while casting spells (in case of a lull resist or something) makes this extremely unlikely.

Kevlar
08-18-2011, 04:57 PM
Actually an enchanter can pull as well as a bard if they know how (just not with selos obviously) and keep mana regen/haste/CC up as well.

not to mention the dps the charmed dual wielding hasted pet adds. Probably more than three bards would.

Any xp group only has to worry about breaking camp once. Bards don't pull any better than any other class with pacify indoors, and are worse at splitting spawns than any class with feign. I would never take someone in an xp group for pulling ability. That is an incredibly minor part of an xp group.

Kope
08-18-2011, 05:02 PM
The fact that Bards have an eye of zomm clickie + the ability to move while casting spells (in case of a lull resist or something) makes this extremely unlikely.

Moving while casting spells sure,

Elder holgresh beads in SoV evens the playing field.

Lazortag
08-18-2011, 05:04 PM
not to mention the dps the charmed dual wielding hasted pet adds. Probably more than three bards would.

Any xp group only has to worry about breaking camp once. Bards don't pull any better than any other class with pacify indoors, and are worse at splitting spawns than any class with feign. I would never take someone in an xp group for pulling ability. That is an incredibly minor part of an xp group.

It depends on the situation. In howling stones having a good puller (one who can pull through paintings/avoid 500 damage unresistable HT's etc.) is a big deal and can greatly increase the number of mobs the group gets per spawn cycle. That's just one example. I also never said to take them based on their pulling ability alone - take Bards because they are the best pullers in addition to being extremely good at CC. Or invite an enchanter instead because they are the best CC and still decent at pulling, whatever. Just recognize that both classes are very useful to have and a good Bard will pull their weight much better than an average enchanter. As for the other stuff you said, just refer to my previous posts.

edit: also, bard songs don't cost mana. Just sayin'.

Dr4z3r
08-18-2011, 05:19 PM
Also, people who [/thread] in their own post have small dicks.

When the first post, consisting only of "go!" is an obvious attempt to incite an argument, I feel no obligation to contribute to the thread in any capacity other than perhaps attempting to kill it before it starts.

Kope
08-18-2011, 05:24 PM
When the first post, consisting only of "go!" is an obvious attempt to incite an argument,

Not supposed to be an argument, but a discussion on the mechanics of 2 seprate classes that have some crossed abilities.

Kevlar
08-18-2011, 05:46 PM
Think of it this way. An enchanter is a force multiplier.

A bard is a force adder.

jerok88
08-18-2011, 07:59 PM
Think of it this way. An enchanter is a force multiplier.

A bard is a force adder.

I'm trying to think that way, but it's not working.

Kevlar
08-18-2011, 08:10 PM
I'm trying to think that way, but it's not working.

An enchanter is always adding to a group in multiple ways, be it CC, DPS, Mana Regen, Melee Haste.

A bard can do the same things, just on a more limited scale. The bards more limited abilities are also more easily replaced than the enchanter. The bard does not add as much to the group, and can not add everything at the same time like an enchanter.

There is a reason the "Holy Trinity" was War/Cler/Chanter, not War/Cler/Bard.

SearyxTZ
08-18-2011, 08:24 PM
Bards are better because I play one



I know many popular indie songs

Dr4z3r
08-18-2011, 11:06 PM
An enchanter is always adding to a group in multiple ways, be it CC, DPS, Mana Regen, Melee Haste.

A bard can do the same things, just on a more limited scale. The bards more limited abilities are also more easily replaced than the enchanter. The bard does not add as much to the group, and can not add everything at the same time like an enchanter.

There is a reason the "Holy Trinity" was War/Cler/Chanter, not War/Cler/Bard.

A bard can pull and CC the whole Drolvarg Bodyguard room, and doesn't have much trouble tanking all of the mobs while mezzing. Plate armor: Don't knock it!

Fourthmeal
08-18-2011, 11:10 PM
bards

Vohl
08-19-2011, 01:28 AM
I've actually been in groups with both. Each of you grabs a charm pet from the pull. Enchanter tashes and slows mobs the bard AE mezzes and hastes / casts C on the group. There's plenty to keep you both busy.

That said, there's quite a bit of overlap. Most people I play with consider them more or less completely interchangeable. Enchanters are more caster-friendly due to C/C2; bards are more melee-friendly due to not needing to med up.

jerok88
08-19-2011, 01:28 AM
An enchanter is always adding to a group in multiple ways, be it CC, DPS, Mana Regen, Melee Haste.

A bard can do the same things, just on a more limited scale. The bards more limited abilities are also more easily replaced than the enchanter. The bard does not add as much to the group, and can not add everything at the same time like an enchanter.

There is a reason the "Holy Trinity" was War/Cler/Chanter, not War/Cler/Bard.

Let me list some major abilities

Bard - haste, overhaste (in velious) selos, snare, slow, fear, mez, charm, mana regen, hp regen, stamina regen, lull, DoT songs for dps, no mana require for songs, invis, find corpse, debuff ac, debuff resists, damage shield, absord dmg shield, plate armor, dual-wield melee, track, sneak, hide, pick lock, str/agi/dex/int/wis/cha buff, atk buff, see invis, ac buff, resist buffs, song of highsun (gates mob back to start),

Ench - haste, slow, mez, mana regen, stun, charm, pet, debuff, ac, debuff resists, damage shield, invis, root, ac buff, regen stam, fear, str/dex/agi/int/wis/cha buff, str buff

So bard can do a lot more than an ench can, can make up for weakness in a group in ways the ench can't.
No dru/rang/nec? Bard snare.
No ench/sham? Bard slow/mana/haste.
No tank? Bard tank up to a point.
No puller? Bard pull.
Heals low? Bard regen.
Time to run? Drum selos.

The ench is required for places where the bard can't mez, and for leet charm dps at higher levels, but I would take a well played bard over an ench in 90% of my groups. Only an enchanter is required I must say, although bard resist songs are up there in terms of necessity.

Vermicelli
08-19-2011, 04:36 AM
For some reason, people always neglect to mention the -40% bard xp penalty. This is no reason at all to refuse a bard a group! Just sayin it gets left out it is all

Arrisard
08-19-2011, 04:59 AM
For some reason, people always neglect to mention the -40% bard xp penalty. This is no reason at all to refuse a bard a group! Just sayin it gets left out it is all

More accurately, it'd be a 30% difference in exp totals for bard vs enchanter. :p

Vermicelli
08-19-2011, 05:20 AM
Ohh good catch, because all INT casters have a -10% xp penalty =D

SearyxTZ
08-19-2011, 06:02 AM
An enchanter is always adding to a group in multiple ways, be it CC, DPS, Mana Regen, Melee Haste.

A bard can do the same things, just on a more limited scale. The bards more limited abilities are also more easily replaced than the enchanter. The bard does not add as much to the group, and can not add everything at the same time like an enchanter.



You have this backwards, friend.

An enchanter is specialized - they are the best at haste/clarity and (somewhat arguably) crowd control. They don't do much else though.

Bards never have to be replaced due to their versatility.

Enchanters can not cater to a group's needs like this. Say if a Monk is pulling so CC isn't an issue, and a group is either melee-heavy or caster-heavy. You're left casting one buff on people and doing a really poor Wizard impersonation. It should also be pointed out that the clarity buff does not "replace" what a bard can provide there - especially on raids - because the bard song stacks with it.

Vohl
08-19-2011, 10:13 AM
I have yet to see how this plays out in the high-end game, but charm pets so far have done a lot to leverage me out of the second-rate wizard role.

greatdane
08-19-2011, 10:16 AM
With the charisma for charm to stick consistently, an enchanter far out-damages a wizard wherever there are mobs available to charm. It's a bit risky, though, so I wouldn't do it in a group that struggles.