Discussion: Play Nice (Training, Bind Camping)

[Rogean]

Reserved.

[Rogean]

Reserved.

[Tonomar]

Training has always been gay, yet part of EQ. It makes a ton of work for GM's and guides, mass QQ ensues after a so called "train" occurs. If bind camping is allowed, training should be, too. What goes around comes around, bros.

[Lazortag]

hey Rogaine, I already commented on pretty much everything you stickied (in what I think was a very organized post) so rather than repost it I'll just give you the link:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=370520&postcount=258

I didn't comment on bind camping or exp loss on deaths but I basically I think neither should be allowed.

Training

"Training shouldn't be allowed - it just makes everyone miserable. I think we can all assume that if training is not allowed, there will be less of it. In the cases where people do try to train, either (a) fraps them (it seems every red player has fraps anyway) or (b) root them. It's not that hard; stop acting like the GM's will have to watch every raid 24/7."

[Naikon]

allow bind camping

easy enough to log off or log on another toon until its safe. part of pvp is being griefed

No intentional training should be allowed

Played with and without training, healthiest servers have always had rules against it.

[Jerin]

Training is gonna happen regardless. Best to focus on something you can control.
Unless you can find the staff that wants do deal with it.

No bind camping should be enforced somehow.

[Harrison]

allow bind camping

easy enough to log off or log on another toon until its safe. part of pvp is being griefed

No intentional training should be allowed

Played with and without training, healthiest servers have always had rules against it.

You're okay with bind camping, but not training?

These are the mongoloids whose opinions you need not incorporate into your decision making process.

Terrible.

[Tonomar]

Hey Harrison, you say nothing that's worth reading. Go play in traffic irl.

[Cwall]

People will be more apt to bind camp if there is some sort of leaderboard. I think bind camping and training should be allowed though. Neither of which are real PvP, but reputation should factor into this.

[Marglar]

play nice is great in theory - but it takes too much dedicated staff to enforce, you'll burn people out.

let the players govern the rules. if people want to be pricks to each other, they will be treated accordingly. if they want to play honorably, chances are they will be treated the same in return.

I'm really not sure why people keep bringing up leaderboards - who cares about leaderboards? they mean nothing.

[Harrison]

Strictly enforced with no wiggle room. Harsh punishments, too.

30 day suspension first time caught breaking well-defined rules. Flat out banned permanently if caught again after that.

[Misto]

Nobody is going to play nice when they get into the Planes.

FACT

[Scribbles]

literally only pvp rule should be no training. trying to have gms enforce no corpse/bind camping, calling lns, etc is a godawful waste of time.

[Misto]

literally only pvp rule should be no training. trying to have gms enforce no corpse/bind camping, calling lns, etc is a godawful waste of time.

That sounds great if theres no XP loss on PVP death.

If you have XP loss on PVP death, however, you have to solve the issue of bind camping.

[Goraxx]

I'd say dont enforce either. GM's will have enough on their plates. Training is going to happen anyway as will bind camping.

[pasi]

Bind Camping is fine.

Training: there's a 16 page thread on this from when we first got our PvP section. http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33605

Really, what you rule on training won't matter in the end. Every high-end PvP engagement is going to end up in trains with the victor being whoever can camp a cleric and rez quicker. Neither fraps nor having a GM present at every battle can pinpoint who trained what.

I remember when PoHate was released on VZTZ 2.0. Even with Searyx filming the fucking event and other GMs present, untraceable trains were part of every battle. What is accidental and what is intentional. Players suiciding into mobs rather than be YT'd and not knowing if other players are too close.

It leads to GM favoritism calls when one person gets banned/suspended for training and another person does not. It will take up most of the petition queue.

With that said, I'm not sure how the alternative of having no rules on training would work out.

If anything, I'd like hard-coded rules before legal training.

[Scribbles]

That sounds great if theres no XP loss on PVP death.

If you have XP loss on PVP death, however, you have to solve the issue of bind camping.

I think xp loss on death is dum, but if it were in u could just make it so that you won't lose xp on death to the same person within a given amount of time (so player A could only kill player B and have them lose xp once an hour, for example)

[Ennoia]

Training has always been gay, yet part of EQ. It makes a ton of work for GM's and guides, mass QQ ensues after a so called "train" occurs. If bind camping is allowed, training should be, too. What goes around comes around, bros.

Bind camping is stupid. Training, well, play better and avoid the trains.

allow bind camping

easy enough to log off or log on another toon until its safe. part of pvp is being griefed

No intentional training should be allowed

Played with and without training, healthiest servers have always had rules against it.

Bind camping will cause more issues than training, and if training is allowed, it cuts down on probably 80% of the annoying petitions that the staff will get. Going to have to agree with Harrison that you're a mongoloid who should be ignored.

[Pudge]

ppl have had massive discussions on training in the past.. could dig up a link.

training: should be illegal. only way to enforce is fraps or it didn't happen. or GM witness. this makes a clear cut line: if you don't have fraps, you can't say shit. ppl will learn to not waste GM time when their account gets suspended by uthgaard for petitioning "soandso trained me, check the logs and ban him"

there is obviously a judgement call that will have to be made as to what constitutes a "train" - was it a true accident, how many mobs were involved, is the environment one where mob agro is inevitable? etc. but whatever the judgements be, it will be better to have the "trainer" cry about gm favoritism than to have a server full of clerics, bards, and monks "pvping" you with an army of npcs

bind camping: should be legal. just make it so ppl don't lose exp if they are bind camped. i would like to be able to bind camp an enemy guild to prevent bind rushers from returning to the battlefield..

i posted before a suggestion that maybe: if you are in your bind zone, naked, and haven't casted any spells/attacked anyone, then when you die (to pvp) you don't lose exp.

Bind rushing: allowed, but do things like when you're killed in pvp, have 0 mana when you respawn

LnS: on vztz by the end of the server we wound up with: if the losing guild requests LnS, it must be granted, and the loser cannot come back for 1 hour. so if the loser wanted to try and keep fighting, he could. when he had enough, he could request LnS. in guild pvp, the officers or someone claiming to be in charge would call the LnS, and it would be for the entire guild/crew (guilds like to have unguilded 'members' on pvp servers).

however back in the day I also enjoyed trying to get my corpse from corpse campers. i don't know how many ppl would prefer an LnS system over corpse-campage though, especially with exp loss on pvp death.

Right now, i'm leaning towards... let ppl corpse camp. whoever died can log on an alt or something and wait till the camper is gone.

but this also ties in with /whoing ppl who are anon. i'd rather /anon didn't work and that you could tell when someone was done corpse camping you... (on vztz /anon didn't work)

[Aenor]

This is pretty much my answer for all points of discussion. The less gm enforcement required the better. Don't be like SOE and have unenforceable play nice rules that, when you do enforce them, you will be accused of selectively enforcing them.

[Envious]

FYI, training is the hardest of any PnP to actually prove or come to a conclusion about as a GM.

You have to derive intent, which is fucking impossible. If they were bringing in the mobs cause PvP was required before someone engaged or killed the mob, or just trained...

Deriving intent is not possible. Your asking for shit. These issues have been discussed at fucking length a dozen goddamned times.

GMs on R99 should have 1 fuking purpose, to handle mechanics and things of the such. Getting them involved in any PK'ing activities will kill your server. GMs get involved, make decisions, people question it, then people leave, then there is no PvP, then more ppl leave, then server dead.

[Envious]

In all frankness and seriousness...

Just keep the GMs the fuck off R99.

The only dev / GM that has even been wanted in the PvP forums has been you (Rogean).

Just keep the GMs off R99. Get a couple to do char stuck, corpse under world, zones down, etc... game mechanics.

Sorry to respond with less than ample patience, but I have been preaching this for 3 or 4 years...

[Lazortag]

In all frankness and seriousness...

Just keep the GMs the fuck off R99.

The only dev / GM that has even been wanted in the PvP forums has been you (Rogean).

Just keep the GMs off R99. Get a couple to do char stuck, corpse under world, zones down, etc... game mechanics.

Sorry to respond with less than ample patience, but I have been preaching this for 3 or 4 years...

What about rules that are easy to enforce (like bind camping)? The deterrent value of being punished for something like that is enough to make most people not do it. It's not going to burn out the GM staff since virtually no one would be dumb enough to risk doing it.

Yeah training isn't easy to catch, but that's just a reason for needing a high standard of evidence before punishing anyone. If there's not enough evidence, then just don't get involved. And most blatant training should be solved by casting root anyway. I fail to see how this is a big deal. If you don't have a rule against training there will be about a hundred times more of it.

[pasi]

FYI, training is the hardest of any PnP to actually prove or come to a conclusion about as a GM.

You have to derive intent, which is fucking impossible. If they were bringing in the mobs cause PvP was required before someone engaged or killed the mob, or just trained...

Deriving intent is not possible. Your asking for shit. These issues have been discussed at fucking length a dozen goddamned times.

GMs on R99 should have 1 fuking purpose, to handle mechanics and things of the such. Getting them involved in any PK'ing activities will kill your server. GMs get involved, make decisions, people question it, then people leave, then there is no PvP, then more ppl leave, then server dead.

[Rushmore]

If you allow someone to bind camp you're an idiot.

Training shouldn't be allowed but if you get caught by GM or Fraps your character is deleted.
Why do GMs in the past continue to suspend a player!?!? It does nothing.

1) First Time Offender ....Delete Character
2) Second Time Offender ....Delete Character and Bind IP.

If you allow training more people will roll monks, Sk, Necro just to take advantage and the population will go down.

[Amuk]

Pro's and cons for both - if you have staff willing to enforce it No Training policy is more fun. But if there isn't the support and the GM's arn't up for that commitment I wouldn't blame them.

[georgie]

training should be allowed to an extent. it shouldn't be allowed in raid zones.
ex: CT enraged 3%
monk:/fd
guild:/dead

-also think it should be that long wait for enemies to forget you. like in p99.

[Doors]

Bind camping should be legal but only if theres no exp on death from other players. Coin loot but no item loot. No training because its stupid and overshadows any actual PVP.

People who intentionally train should get like 1 week bans or something. Permanent ban seems like a bit much.

As far as cheating goes, should be a three strikes rule. Third strike = perm ban. Just instantly banning people you catch for a first offense will kill server population fast. Not that I'm sticking up for these scrubs that do use MQ and shit but perm ban right on first offense seems harsh also.

and Harrison shut the fuck up. This isn't World of Warcraft.

[Doors]

LnS might be necessary but not right off the bat of server start. Honestly I want to play on a pretty brutal PVP server and no LnS makes it all the better. Also LnS is really hard, annoying and tedious to police as a GM.

[Rushmore]

banning does nothing. Why doesn't anyone ever call for character delete?

[SearyxTZ]

Enforce against training if you actually have the staff/manpower to do it and they have thick enough skin to deal with that shit, plus the competency to realize the difference between an intentional train and an unintentional one (Sirken was good)

Realize that this is going to be problematic either way though - enforced or not.

Reason being....

FYI, training is the hardest of any PnP to actually prove or come to a conclusion about as a GM.

You have to derive intent, which is fucking impossible. If they were bringing in the mobs cause PvP was required before someone engaged or killed the mob, or just trained...

That. It's a very difficult thing to enforce or judge accurately, even when you are in the zone watching.

[SearyxTZ]

Even now, I'm getting terrible flashbacks of when I was a GM and Kaahbal sent me the lowest-quality youtube video imaginable as hard proof of a Sebilis train, and I was supposed to deduce that a blurry brown pixel was Rexx training, amongst the other 40 pixel blob characters and sebillite juggernauts that they were already fighting which were taking up half the screen....

[Bardalicious]

banning does nothing. Why doesn't anyone ever call for character delete?

How does your account being banned with ur characters being unusable differ from character being deleted? Either way u cant play the toon any more.

[Pudge]

on vztz it was common to say "ban" but really mean "suspend"

a true ban was called a permaban

[Scribbles]

lots of dumb suggestions in this thread. for those who are only interested in the good ones allow me to recommend searyx and my posts

[wrxBRAH]

training and camping is ok. its a pvp server, it'll sort itself and provide less shit for gms to deal with.

[bakkily]

but i'm guessing this server will have the same pve reward system as p99, meaning same mobs give the same exp here as in there, i sure hope that they only come out with the orignal eq era for a few months or 5-6 months before kunark is released, original zones are i think the best zones in eq, or velious, kunarks bleh

[Macken]

Free Trade PvP.


... with one possible exception....no training....and only because we don't have enough true hard core pvpr's in this community who have enough skill and determination to adapt.


....and for a 50% bonus to server greatness...put in the leaderboard asap, so i can brag again for years afterward.

[Smedy]

I think a play nice policy should be enforced by the GM's regarding training. With free for all training it becomes a match of whoever has the most FD classes and no one gets to have any fun.

I think the reason it was so hard to police training on vztz was because of the lack of actual punishment + the ease to get a character to 60 + gear. (+ the GM's allowed themselves to get trolled over and over so eventually they were to confused to know what the fuck was going on anyway)

If you stick with your slow exp formula you have on P99 currently and implement pvp with a good active GM staff we should be able to get rid of the 10-20% population who are not into following rules.

[Arillious]

Bind camping doesnt happen very much and you should not much to much thought into it.

Regarding training, I'd suggest less GM involvement. Most guilds will not allow someone who is a known trainer to be in their guild. If someone from Guild A is training Guild B, then Guild B should contact a Guild A officer and provide evidence. If guild A doesnt do anything about it, then guild B should just corpse camp the hell out of guild A until the person is removed or the guild falls apart. Either way, problem solved. Worked on live.

[Pudge]

^ things wouldn't happen that way here. players will not 'police themselves' like on live. on live training was also illegal, except for sullon

[Harrison]

Bind camping doesnt happen very much and you should not much to much thought into it.

Regarding training, I'd suggest less GM involvement. Most guilds will not allow someone who is a known trainer to be in their guild. .

rofl

[Ennoia]

ppl have had massive discussions on training in the past.. could dig up a link.

training: should be illegal. only way to enforce is fraps or it didn't happen. or GM witness. this makes a clear cut line: if you don't have fraps, you can't say shit. ppl will learn to not waste GM time when their account gets suspended by uthgaard for petitioning "soandso trained me, check the logs and ban him"

there is obviously a judgement call that will have to be made as to what constitutes a "train" - was it a true accident, how many mobs were involved, is the environment one where mob agro is inevitable? etc. but whatever the judgements be, it will be better to have the "trainer" cry about gm favoritism than to have a server full of clerics, bards, and monks "pvping" you with an army of npcs

bind camping: should be legal. just make it so ppl don't lose exp if they are bind camped. i would like to be able to bind camp an enemy guild to prevent bind rushers from returning to the battlefield..

i posted before a suggestion that maybe: if you are in your bind zone, naked, and haven't casted any spells/attacked anyone, then when you die (to pvp) you don't lose exp.

Bind rushing: allowed, but do things like when you're killed in pvp, have 0 mana when you respawn

LnS: on vztz by the end of the server we wound up with: if the losing guild requests LnS, it must be granted, and the loser cannot come back for 1 hour. so if the loser wanted to try and keep fighting, he could. when he had enough, he could request LnS. in guild pvp, the officers or someone claiming to be in charge would call the LnS, and it would be for the entire guild/crew (guilds like to have unguilded 'members' on pvp servers).

however back in the day I also enjoyed trying to get my corpse from corpse campers. i don't know how many ppl would prefer an LnS system over corpse-campage though, especially with exp loss on pvp death.

Right now, i'm leaning towards... let ppl corpse camp. whoever died can log on an alt or something and wait till the camper is gone.

but this also ties in with /whoing ppl who are anon. i'd rather /anon didn't work and that you could tell when someone was done corpse camping you... (on vztz /anon didn't work)

You're so ass backwards I can't even laugh because laughing at retards is mean.

Making training legal will get rid of most of the petitions the staff has to deal with. It's going to happen anyway, just let it happen.

Bind Camping is just stupid. Who cares if you're not losing XP when you're bind camped if you can't go anywhere? The waste of time being stuck there while some dickhead kills you over and over is more aggravating than losing XP.

Same thing with Corpse Camping.

[Arillious]

^ things wouldn't happen that way here. players will not 'police themselves' like on live. on live training was also illegal, except for sullon

I'm not so sure, either way I'd start with erroring on the side of having less GM involvement and then slowly add GM involvement if its needed.

[Envious]

Love how E-thug Macken so hard, but doesnt want training... Kinda limp wristed.

Whoever thinks training was not happening on TZ is simply mistaken or stupid. I personally trained VS on KC ent groups for hours at a time. Saw my pal training AoW on other guilds.

The bottom line is this. Training will happen. Its effective. And impossible to really police without having someone watching over every person's shoulder IRL as they play.

IF your insane enough to think your GM staff can handle policing training, these will be the consequences:

Floods of petitions, both true and false.
Youtube videos like Searyx posted about, supposed evidence of X guild or person training.
People claming GM favoritism EVERY TIME A DECISION IS MADE.
People trolling GMs for sport on "trains"
People quitting server after they or a friend is banned.
Anon training by low lvls on random accounts from IP proxies*

And Pudge is soft, ignore him.

[Tamiah2011]

I have one point...NO GM involvement unless race slander is being used.All is fair game in pvp,Training,greifing,ect ect...I dont think even if GM agrees to this GM like Uthgaard and Hobby will not follow it..They tend to be players and not Gms and there friends cloud there judgement on what there true function is on server.

[Scribbles]

so hard to escape bind camping

[Scribbles]

and by so hard to escape what i mean is it is literally the easiest thing in the world to avoid/escape and it would be a godawful waste of gm resources to ahve them try to police it

[Kope]

You're so ass backwards I can't even laugh because laughing at retards is mean.

Making training legal will get rid of most of the petitions the staff has to deal with. It's going to happen anyway, just let it happen.

Bind Camping is just stupid. Who cares if you're not losing XP when you're bind camped if you can't go anywhere? The waste of time being stuck there while some dickhead kills you over and over is more aggravating than losing XP.

Same thing with Corpse Camping.

Ennoia I'm honestly not sure what you're thinking here.

Training - why would you incentivise training? Making training "ok" isn't a good idea. Even if you can't take care of it every time if you make it a rule and enforce it when you can there will be more PvP and less training involved in higher end fights (say trak fights)

Bind camping - this i do kinda agree with you on, except for the fact Rogean has said multiple times they're pretty serious about XP loss on pvp deaths.

[lethdar]

Bind camping doesnt happen very much and you should not much to much thought into it.

Regarding training, I'd suggest less GM involvement. Most guilds will not allow someone who is a known trainer to be in their guild. If someone from Guild A is training Guild B, then Guild B should contact a Guild A officer and provide evidence. If guild A doesnt do anything about it, then guild B should just corpse camp the hell out of guild A until the person is removed or the guild falls apart. Either way, problem solved. Worked on live.

This is soooooo naive, literally laughed out loud reading this post.

[Xantille]

This is soooooo naive, literally laughed out loud reading this post.

I always preferred recruiting 'known trainers' l o l

[Macken]

Regarding training, I'd suggest less GM involvement. Most guilds will not allow someone who is a known trainer to be in their guild. If someone from Guild A is training Guild B, then Guild B should contact a Guild A officer and provide evidence. If guild A doesnt do anything about it, then guild B should just corpse camp the hell out of guild A until the person is removed or the guild falls apart. Either way, problem solved. Worked on live.

Made an infamous reputation and fine living on destroying guilds like yours.



by myself.

You are confused.

This isn't your Grandmothers pvp server anymore.

[Arillious]

Made an infamous reputation and fine living on destroying guilds like yours.


by myself.

You are confused.

This isn't your Grandmothers pvp server anymore.

My guild destroyed multiple guilds for doing things such as this. Simply pointing out that this worked on live. If you want GM's to manage training manually then go ahead.

[Atmas]

Training is pretty crappy. Not sure how enforceable it is to prevent it though.

I like the idea of people actually havent to beat opponents themselves without the help of mobs.

[Rushmore]

How does your account being banned with ur characters being unusable differ from character being deleted? Either way u cant play the toon any more.

Because most people get to come off that ban and continue to do what they were banned for in the first place.

let's delete toon's and let people keep playing.

[pasi]

I have one point...NO GM involvement unless race slander is being used.All is fair game in pvp,Training,greifing,ect ect...I dont think even if GM agrees to this GM like Uthgaard and Hobby will not follow it..They tend to be players and not Gms and there friends cloud there judgement on what there true function is on server.

There's a lot of naive people around these parts, but if race slander would be a bannable offense, 2/3 of the community would be banned before beta dropped.

And corpse camping Lumie was the main reason I played on VZTZ.

[Harrison]

There's a lot of naive people around these parts, but if race slander would be a bannable offense, 2/3 of the community would be banned before beta dropped.

Good.

[Envious]

If slander offends you, or racial slurs...

Your obviously too young and not jaded enough to be playing EQ PvP.

[Envious]

Made an infamous reputation and fine living on destroying guilds like yours.



by myself.

You are confused.

This isn't your Grandmothers pvp server anymore.

Coming from the weaknotch advocating against training...

[Knuckle]

You must have regulation on Training same as P99.

[Envious]

You must have regulation on Training same as P99.

Was virtually zero on live, as I never experienced any...

So whats your reasoning?

[lethdar]

Was virtually zero on live, as I never experienced any...

So whats your reasoning?

Because this isn't tunare zek or whatever shitty server you played on live?

It's funny how people who played on sullon / vztz know how devastating for a server's population training is and advocate against it, as they'd actually like to have a high population long lasting server, but random losers who roleplayed in some elf guild on vz a decade ago holding each others hands think reputations and player enforced rules will work.

It wont.

[Banai]

I was on TZ and I got pinched by GMs several times for training :( Sure was enforced on live.. At least from my experience. And it really should be, training is just gay as fuck

[XiakenjaTZ]

I agree with Lethdar. This server is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

If training is not illegal it will be one huge train after another.

[Salty]

I don't think these blue faggots understand how much death and grief people like lethdar and littlegyno can rain down on their raids. EQ will literally be unplayable for them.

They best be frapsin before collapsin

[Rushmore]

I don't think these blue faggots understand how much death and grief people like lethdar and littlegyno can rain down on their raids. EQ will literally be unplayable for them.

Whats even better is that Vets like Lethdar Xantille Lasher FEigi are trying to protect them from this.....

And the BLuebies and one yr wanna be's don't realize it.

These guys know there shit. From what I've read for the past few days.... The VZTZ'ers know what fails and what will succeed.

It doesn't seem to be about them anymore because they just want a healthy server to call home. As do I.

These guys are more hardcore than any of you. But they know in the end they will just make everyone quit and another failure of a server will happen.

[vinx]

Because this isn't tunare zek or whatever shitty server you played on live?

random losers who roleplayed in some elf guild on vz a decade ago holding each others hands think reputations and player enforced rules will work.

It wont.

sounds like youve read some of my posts.. i never said it was guaranteed fix to all problems
just that it was nice when it did.
trains only happened on sullon? thats LOL

trains are a viable resource to use and you know that..

and FYI we didnt all hold hands and play bluebie on a zek, get off your high horse

[vinx]

and to add..
the reason GM's didnt handle any disputes on live was because GMs never visited the zeks

[Pudge]

Rogean/devs: as Pasi suggested, please read this entire thread i know it's long, but it's basically all about training:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=33605

unless of course you have already made up your mind that training will be illegal.

[Envious]

and to add..
the reason GM's didnt handle any disputes on live was because GMs never visited the zeks

^This.

Clairdalune or whatever came to TZ once during Kunark, and got PK'd in EJ~


All these "pros" from VZ/TZ were scrubs on live. And have done nothing but help drive 4 iterations of VZ/TZ EMU into the ground.

Know what kills servers? Bad admins, and people thinking the server is unfair. People think its unfair when authority they can no influence makes decisions that impact them. Aka, GM decisions. Have any rules enforced by staff, and you create GM decisions, then cries of GM favoritism, then ppl get pissed, then quit, then friends quit, then pop is substantially lower, then more quit cause server is sucking, then server dead.

Nothing is more fair than zero GM intervention.

[Envious]

2 things.

1. Rules are for fucking faggots. (And will kill server. Dont listen, Gronkus / Keegan / Null / Voidd / Searyx all ignored me, and the servers they admin'd are obviously still up and running with high pops~).

2. SZ was for the rejects that couldnt hack it on the pvp servers with communities.

[Envious]

Because this isn't tunare zek or whatever shitty server you played on live?

It's funny how people who played on sullon / vztz know how devastating for a server's population training is and advocate against it, as they'd actually like to have a high population long lasting server, but random losers who roleplayed in some elf guild on vz a decade ago holding each others hands think reputations and player enforced rules will work.

It wont.

And for the record, I never roleplayed... was in several notable guilds on TZ as a dark non-xteamer.

And was on VZ/TZ emu before you sir.

What kills servers, is admin. I'm not even going to attribute it to the host of total shit we had on VZ/TZ. What killed that server was fucking horribad admins.

[Zigfreed]

Training is lame

[Amuk]

Don't think anyone will criticize Uthgaard of having favorites, I've told my p99 story before but, we had a grp impose on our CT alligator camp, so we ks'd their mobs - they trained us, we petitioned, and all of us were banned for wasting his time.

I imagine it'll work the same on Red99, either work it out ourselves or he'll ban everyone in the situation, not sure if it's better or worse than no rules heh.

[vinx]

Agreed gold on all your reasons for training..
i just meant it had its resources in a few situations

immy healers comes to mind ;)

[Nirgon]

And so the trolling begins.

I'd ignore these forums and come up with and tolerate whatever you think is enforceable and makes sense.

No /who all, no yellow text.

Item loot? I don't care one way or the other.

Money loot? Definitely imo.

[Harrison]

lol @ all these inbreds thinking no rules will make a good server

Go back to your 100pop server with boxing allowed lawl

[Kope]

lol @ all these inbreds thinking no rules will make a good server

Go back to your 100pop server with boxing allowed lawl

Harrison actually has a point here...

[Aenor]

Pvt. Pyle working off that donut spamming these threads. So mad he can't do his lazy ass "P99 Red not happening" anymore.

And no Pvt. Pyle doesn't have a point. We're not advocating no rules. We're advocating as few rules as possible so P99 doesn't put itself in the position SOE was with unenforceable rules.

[Civeal]

thing is, SoE had paying customers.

on the other hand, the main reward for the dev on this server, is it's success, so, i'm sure they can enforce rules if necessary, you don't respect rules, you get banned for a week, continue doing so, get banned forever.

alot of people have the feeling to be over the rules, they should remember that they are not paying anything here, it's a free service.

[Haul]

Allow training and bind camping. Seriously people can make an alt if they getting owned on hardcore. Just come back for corpse hour or 2 later, or the next day if you can't compete. Anything disallowing them is not classic, and just adds to the list for losers to go "im reporting you to GM cause I'm not good enough to play this game and you're better." Shouldn't be rules on this stuff ya'll are just making it more pve like the servers you guys experienced. Training and bind camping are part of EQ pvp.

[beentheredonethat]

I have been guilty myself in the past of bind camping someone on RZ. It's not profitable, it was purely payback. Back then it seemed only fair since that individual ganked me twice while I was mid fight vs an orc and alligator.

A lot of these rules can't really be enforced, its a huge pain to try to enforce those, and do end up with tons of complaints anyway since rules like this provide a one sided advantage. Usually if there isn't a profit most people won't do it most of the time. So I would say ok on bind camping.

If you let people rez with full spell bar mana/hp, most bind camping would probably go away too anyway.

[lethdar]

If you let people rez with full spell bar mana/hp, most bind camping would probably go away too anyway.

Hahaha holy fuck don't do this. Sup bindrush caster paradise.

[Haul]

The kind of rules that need to be enforced are catching MQ'rs, other variances of cheating, and people who expliot and dupe. Those are the people who are true scum and shitty human beings irl. Wasting man power and resources on training and bind camping, which are proven parts of the game PVP just makes the server into a freaking snitch/whining fest. Real talk.

[Rushmore]

Allow training and bind camping. Seriously people can make an alt if they getting owned on hardcore. Just come back for corpse hour or 2 later, or the next day if you can't compete. Anything disallowing them is not classic, and just adds to the list for losers to go "im reporting you to GM cause I'm not good enough to play this game and you're better." Shouldn't be rules on this stuff ya'll are just making it more pve like the servers you guys experienced. Training and bind camping are part of EQ pvp.

so you want a pvp level range in lowerguk but training is allowed? So I can't kill someone that is 8 levels below me but I can train them?

[Buhbuh]

I found on live that a good majority of training was unintentional.

On the box, enemies avoiding getting YT'd by running into mobs, and watching people chase after them (even my own guildies, with no recourse once the enemy died) was common. Sometimes those people would bring the mobs back to a group of their own allies, a real stupid thing to do. I think it's fair to say that some people that enjoy PvP on these emu servers just simply don't think beyond the kill shot.

Silikten and Tonomar (from an opposite guild perspective) were pretty huge on trains back when the first box was around. But guides and the general population learn who does it and what to expect when running into certain characters, naturally. Several from my guild on the box fought fire with fire too. Competing guilds learned to fight fire with fire if they wanted to succeed. There was no room for noble or honorable causes, because no one cared.

That said, I understand the frustration with trains. I usually play Monk. It gives a tactical advantage, it blocks guilds from advancing, and for strict PvP purposes, it's a horse shit way to get an advantage over an opponent that you're not certain you can beat alone. People train either to be a dick, or because there's no other way to accomplish what they came to do without mobs to assist them.

So, we have to understand that no matter what the consequences, training will never stop. Not everyone will be caught. I think if the GM's can find blatant, cut and dry cases of training (and it's probably most important during raids), then by all means, ban those fuckers. I would just take a go-with-the-flow sort of ruleset, as in, if caught being an asshole and trying to fuck up hours of effort by 15+ people, then show no mercy. But in cases where the material to merit a ban or suspension is murky, leave it alone or just give warnings out to those specific people (you're being watched).

[Haul]

so you want a pvp level range in lowerguk but training is allowed? So I can't kill someone that is 8 levels below me but I can train them?

Exactly because ffa level range is not legit competition. Not hard for someone to kill someone 8-25 levels below them.

[Galacticus]

Bind Camping = NO.

Personally I think its silly to consider having this, really the only time this happens is when someone is stupid enough to go afk, or there is exploitation through pvp xp gains from killing them over and over. If you arent afk or exploiting, then why do you keep staying logged on to get killed over and over?

Who gets off on killing afk people?

If your getting legitly bind camped, you cant do shit but log out so thats pretty lame to get forced out of the game. If someone is corpse camping then at least you can still chat to friends to get them to help you or talk to the people on your body to convince them to leave.

Is there a good reason to bind camp someone? Ever? (being a dick to them doesn't qualify as a good reason to me)

Training = NO.

The real issue is that you can't stop people from training. The game is kind of designed with trains in mind, they happen on accident all the time, if you are overwhelmed what other options is there to run to a zone for some classes. With trains being allowed, 1 bard can ruin a raid of 40 people from a train. The issue isnt so much with people in zones grouping or leveling, but more with raids for me. Thats where big problems come up, when people get together to raid, they can be pvped, which is legit. But one or two guys taking out 50 because they can run fast or FD is a big waste of time for the other 40 people who dont play a bard or a class that can fd and go after that person and pvp them so they cant train everyone else. Those two people's fun doesn't equal the 50 trying to raid. Those few players most likely wouldnt have a legit reason to be in that zone since the 40 people came in to raid. If you want to contest a zone, or a raid mob, the way to do it is pvp, and this supports the pvp enviroment as well.

I think when 40 people are gathered waiting to raid and 3 people are stopping them from having a good time would be worth a GM's to come in and stop it.

Most importantly this can subvert the pvp level rules. A 60 can easily train a group of level 10s in blackburrow and grief them for hours if training is allowed, where if its not, that 60 has to get on a level 2-18 to actually do anything to those guys. Again, promoting legit pvp.

[Buhbuh]

Bind Camping = NO.



Training = NO.

The real issue is that you can't stop people from training. The game is kind of designed with trains in mind, they happen on accident all the time, if you are overwhelmed what other options is there to run to a zone for some classes. With trains being allowed, 1 bard can ruin a raid of 40 people from a train. The issue isnt so much with people in zones grouping or leveling, but more with raids for me. Thats where big problems come up, when people get together to raid, they can be pvped, which is legit. But one or two guys taking out 50 because they can run fast or FD is a big waste of time for the other 40 people who dont play a bard or a class that can fd and go after that person and pvp them so they cant train everyone else.

I think when 40 people are gathered waiting to raid and 3 people are stopping them from having a good time would be worth a GM's to come in and stop it.

Most importantly this can subvert the pvp level rules. A 60 can easily train a group of level 10s in blackburrow and grief them for hours if training is allowed, where if its not, that 60 has to get on a level 2-18 to actually do anything to those guys. Again, promoting legit pvp.

I think you hit the heart of the playerbase's irritation with training. It's really only a big deal when it halts a guild dead in its tracks. I for one have no problem doing that to enemy guilds if they want training legal, but on a personal level I think it's a real shitty way to play the game. If you don't have what it takes to stop a guild, then you can pester them and slow them down by picking off a cleric or something, but training is just an action someone at the end of their rope uses. It's bullshit. It will happen intentionally, but it's bullshit.

[Rushmore]

someone mentioned this before me but training will kill a lot of massive pvp fights that would have happened if training was illegal.

[Galacticus]

someone mentioned this before me but training will kill a lot of massive pvp fights that would have happened if training was illegal.

Very true.

[Envious]

Allow training and bind camping. Seriously people can make an alt if they getting owned on hardcore. Just come back for corpse hour or 2 later, or the next day if you can't compete. Anything disallowing them is not classic, and just adds to the list for losers to go "im reporting you to GM cause I'm not good enough to play this game and you're better." Shouldn't be rules on this stuff ya'll are just making it more pve like the servers you guys experienced. Training and bind camping are part of EQ pvp.

And no Pvt. Pyle doesn't have a point. We're not advocating no rules. We're advocating as few rules as possible so P99 doesn't put itself in the position SOE was with unenforceable rules.


I found on live that a good majority of training was unintentional.

This is true, so as I stated earlier, your going to be putting the GMs in charge of deriving INTENT behind actions. This is something that the fucking legal system has not learned how to do after 400years? This is asking for cries of GM favoritism upon every decision made. And you think the nonsense stupid fuck shit about P99's Trak poopsock is bad...

someone mentioned this before me but training will kill a lot of massive pvp fights that would have happened if training was illegal.

Neg. If you have a rule against it, then people have to clear to the other group (this only means for large group pvp), which might give that group time to kill NPC X and gate out. It will make people TIMID about pvp. Same as YT, it makes MOST people TIMID about PvP (when there is a chance they lose).

And I dont want to play on a server full of Rushmores, all half fags and scared to engage. I want a frothing cesspool of online rage and violence.

[Rushmore]

And I dont want to play on a server full of Rushmores, all half fags and scared to engage. I want a frothing cesspool of online rage and violence.

No you just want a bunch of trains. Entrance to sebillis is an example someone already used. Some of the best fights happened here. Though if training were allowed this would never happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ZuKWWv0q0&NR=1

[Envious]

No you just want a bunch of trains. Entrance to sebillis is an example someone already used. Some of the best fights happened here. Though if training were allowed this would never happen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ZuKWWv0q0&NR=1

AE'ing zone lines is such fun pvp... But next your going to want a rule against that as well.

I had no idea Seb Golems spawned at ent... obviously you know more about Kunark era EQ than I do.

Training was simply part of EQ PvP on live. Sorry you guys have only played PvP on an EMU~

[lethdar]

your


I'm sure you mean you're, as in you're a moron. I'm sure your memories of running away at the slightest chance of pvp happening stem from your nobody status on tz and your shit guild gating away whenever anyone else tried to contest them. You see, in non pussy guilds you'll actually stay and position yourself to gain the advantage once you see them zone into hate and fight for innoruuk rather than trying to ninja him and gate out. I know, this is a scary and foreign concept to you right?

Really, I'm sure that you must either be the most moronic person on these forums or a troll at this point.

TRAINING MUST BE LEGAL TO PROMOTE MASS PVP HURRRRR.

[Rushmore]

AE'ing zone lines is such fun pvp... But next your going to want a rule against that as well.

I had no idea Seb Golems spawned at ent... obviously you know more about Kunark era EQ than I do.

Training was simply part of EQ PvP on live. Sorry you guys have only played PvP on an EMU~

I believe one of those was a pet gone bad. And yes there was some training and re spawns at the end. But again if training were legal none of that would have happened.

[JayDee]

I will relentlessly train lethdar if training is allowed

Infact, it will probably be the only thing I do on the server if that's the rules (or absence thereof).

[Envious]

TRAINING MUST BE LEGAL TO PROMOTE MASS PVP HURRRRR.

Re-read the past 11 pages to catch up to conversation.

And a few things:
People that like to be grammar nazi's always have valid points.
I was prominent in more than a few guilds, and have been on top PvE and PvP wise of a PvP EMU server, as well as PvP Live server.
Your voice sounds like you got throat fucked by a gorilla.

[beentheredonethat]

I believe one of those was a pet gone bad. And yes there was some training and re spawns at the end. But again if training were legal none of that would have happened.

I don't think training is possible to enforce unless there is some server code changes where mobs would simply disappear back to their bind spot. It was never enforced on live, so I'd imagine it isn't that simple.

[Envious]

And lets review Lethdar's VZ/TZ track record.

Got name being part of a mage gank squad that used MQ
Rode zerg guild coat tails for gear
Was part of Wipe Committee, helped kill server
Caught a ban for stealing shit off someone else's char

What am I missing?

[Envious]

It was never enforced on live, so I'd imagine it isn't that simple.

Agreed. This issue has been pounded on relentlessly. Either Rogean thinks his GMs can ride the line, derive intent, and somehow manage to not piss off anyone in a highly volatile community full of egomaniacs with every decision made to avoid the en masse accusations of GM corruption(Which this has been attempted several times by VZ/TZ staff, and never once succeeded)...

Or, does as was done in EQ Live, and lets the community handle it w/o GM intervention.

Hard decision!

[lethdar]

You seem pretty mad bro. Were you one of those savage wolves that finally killed talendor right before the server was wiped? No wonder you're so angsty.

But please do repeat how you were part of top pve and pvp guilds etc over and over. If you repeat it enough maybe someone will believe you. In all honesty, there's no shame in being a part of some dark elf only roleplay guild on tz and savage wolves on vztz, no need to repeat your mantra trying to get people to take your retarded ideas seriously.

Just don't be a retard.

[lethdar]

I'm sure you just don't want to reveal your characters as I've stomped you up and down on previous emu servers. No need to be timid bro.

ps - Actually the training situation was handled quite well on vztz when there was staff to enforce it. You can contrast this quite well with times when there were no rules w/r/t training and the effect on the server those periods had.

[Bardalicious]

*unreal tournament voice*


TRIPPPPLEEE post!!!

[lethdar]

*unreal tournament voice*


TRIPPPPLEEE post!!!

wat

[beentheredonethat]

ps - Actually the training situation was handled quite well on vztz when there was staff to enforce it. You can contrast this quite well with times when there were no rules w/r/t training and the effect on the server those periods had.

I've played on pvp servers. They never really handled these situations well. For most part it was self enforced, an honor system, and it failed horribly most of the time. Be it intentional or not.

If you have to have a ton of GM's babysitting it just ends up costing a lot of time and money. Best way to avoid this is to either let it be, or change server code so that it simply wouldn't be possible most of the time. It is a very dated game, the game dynamics do not lead very well into such code change which is probably why Sony simply ignored the issue most of the time instead of changing it.

[lethdar]

When you get into situations where people lose months of time invested (their character, permanently) for training it becomes a different situation. Rogean / Uthgard have access to logs that determine who agroed a mob first, second, and so on. This backed up with fraps (and if your guild cant find at least one person ready to fraps then your guild deserves to be trained to death), and an occasional GM monitoring a situation is plenty enough to result in the rule being enforced.

Do you think people will continue to train after their pal is permabanned? Will you run those firegiants into naggys lair knowing that this is the one raid mob spawning today and that there may be a GM watching you waiting to off your ass? Or even if a GM isn't present the combination of seeing you agro tranix and 6 firegiants first in the logs before the trained guild gain agro in combination of a fraps?

This isn't like vztz where you could level an alt to 46 in a day and train fear, and even then the problem was solved once sirken started banning all characters associated with that IP (sup knox lolo). Unless you're a grade A moron chances are you're not going to keep training once you see the first few bitch threads from people who grinded for a month+ to hit 50 and lost their account over a torbin's eyepatch.

[Nirgon]

Best stance openly stated should be "we'll do the best we can about it". Over time, people who train will continue to do so and be banned.

This brings up the case of intentional XP lossing someone. Rooting them naked and training mobs etc. Intentional xp loss? Anyone?

[beentheredonethat]

Best stance openly stated should be "we'll do the best we can about it". Over time, people who train will continue to do so and be banned.

This brings up the case of intentional XP lossing someone. Rooting them naked and training mobs etc. Intentional xp loss? Anyone?

i hated that on pvp servers too. Just had to deal with it, some of it was intentional, some was simply me being a dumbass running into mobs that some monk was trying to run away from and FDing.

I guess I do agree with the point that they basically have to let it happen. It's too much to enforce it, just way too many scenarios.

[Xantille]

I'm sure you just don't want to reveal your characters as I've stomped you up and down on previous emu servers. No need to be timid bro.

ps - Actually the training situation was handled quite well on vztz when there was staff to enforce it. You can contrast this quite well with times when there were no rules w/r/t training and the effect on the server those periods had.

el oh el

Envious is the anonymous box + tallon zek superstar, bro. His identity must be protected.



and yes, I agree there needs to be some rule against training. It's pretty clear what effect a 'no rules' ruleset had on previous boxes, i.e. destroying the population

[Rushmore]

el oh el

Envious is the anonymous box + tallon zek superstar, bro. His identity must be protected.



and yes, I agree there needs to be some rule against training. It's pretty clear what effect a 'no rules' ruleset had on previous boxes, i.e. destroying the population

Yeah I've always been inclined to trust the people who don't hide from there in game character names on the forums. Cowards.

[Buhbuh]

This is true, so as I stated earlier, your going to be putting the GMs in charge of deriving INTENT behind actions. This is something that the fucking legal system has not learned how to do after 400years? This is asking for cries of GM favoritism upon every decision made. And you think the nonsense stupid fuck shit about P99's Trak poopsock is bad...


To an extent, yeah. But I expect them to crack down on it about as much as they did on Live, which was rare. Keldorn (TZ), for instance, was a retard and got banned, and he totally deserved it. But were GM's ever fucking on on TZ? No. When we needed them? No. When absolutely nothing was going on? Sometimes, but mostly no. If they have the resources here, I say go for it. Either way I'll survive.

I think after a while GM's can deduce intent. I'm not sure who you are, Envious, but I think you're from TZ. Anyway, with Rathe Council in PoP, my guild had problems with one DE SK Death Touching one of the council members to start the cycle when we weren't ready for it-- countless times. The logs alone should have been enough for a ban given the caustic relationship between Discordia and PDM, not to mention the clear intent of death touching a rathe council mob at 2%. If GM's are around to watch it and still can't make a call, whatever. At least people know they are there, and know they're trying.

I experienced a lot of deaths diffusing or relocating trains that were meant for my guild on live by the hands of competing guilds. It happens intentionally-- it will and does. But it also happens unintentionally fairly often. The way I see it is that if GM's want to try and take a stand against it, go for it. If nothing changes and no one is caught, so be it. It'll be just like Live. That is why we're here. Live like experience.

[Envious]

So, Lethdar and Xant, yet to actually argue the points and wanna try to call me out?

Grand...

Btw, edits are for fags.
Last edited by lethdar; Today at 12:19 PM..

For the umpteenth time, and Searyx (Previous VZ/TZ GM, someone with a name rep) has even backed me on the point that matters. I'll let you actually read the past 10 pages to find it~

Refute the point, and lets move on. Or you can keep spamming with "Who is u??? NO name! Need name to know EQ!!!".

[Envious]

Oh, and for the record, Searyx and I have no love lost on the forums. But we also dont have the stupidity to let our panties wad up and let it get in the way of discourse.

Also, who I am has absolutely zero fucking relevance to the points that have been made and you have been unable to refute~

[boss]

yes huh

[lethdar]

Are you drunk? Rather than respond to the points i brought up earlier you replied with

"I was prominent in more than a few guilds, and have been on top PvE and PvP wise of a PvP EMU server, as well as PvP Live server."

Afterward when we made fun of you for repeatedly clinging to this as the reason you're right (which considering your hesitance towards saying anything about your identity it seems likely you're just bullshitting) you go on to rant some more instead of responding to yet more points I listed on this very same page. Given your seeming confusion over why a golem was at a zoneline in seb (it was a charmed pet) and lack of reading comprehension demonstrated in this and other threads I'm just going to assume you're a pretty bad troll.

Really that's the far better option compared to the alternative.

[Bardalicious]

Also, who I am has absolutely zero fucking relevance to the points that have been made and you have been unable to refute~

They will totally discredit your arguments with "omg i killed u that one obscure time lolololol u just mad / scared / bad", obviously.

It's been pretty much the same thing in every PVP mechanic thread. It has to be quite humorous for Rogean and Nilbog to read tbh. It's a little sad that these people believe after resorting to saying such things that anyone gives any value to their opinions.

[Marglar]

those same mouthbreathers are the reason bluebies think pvp servers are cesspools, when really they are just the minority .. they are just very vocal.

[Pudge]

Are you drunk? Rather than respond to the points i brought up earlier you replied with

"I was prominent in more than a few guilds, and have been on top PvE and PvP wise of a PvP EMU server, as well as PvP Live server."

Afterward when we made fun of you for repeatedly clinging to this as the reason you're right (which considering your hesitance towards saying anything about your identity it seems likely you're just bullshitting) you go on to rant some more instead of responding to yet more points I listed on this very same page. Given your seeming confusion over why a golem was at a zoneline in seb (it was a charmed pet) and lack of reading comprehension demonstrated in this and other threads I'm just going to assume you're a pretty bad troll.

Really that's the far better option compared to the alternative.

but bro, he helped "gear/level up pudge at least once"

he must be ubar

[Pudge]

him and searyx are best bros

[Pudge]

he played emu pvp for a whole year!

[Buhbuh]

Within the contexts of the idea discussed, if you were someone who barely played emu's or wasn't familiar with EQlive at all, that makes who you are an entirely relevant thing.

Searyx and I go back too, but his experience running a server/ being well versed in coding/ being in top guilds on emu servers is not really a crutch I use to self-validate on a position I take.

Whatevs though. Your point is the burden of proof regarding intent. It can be found in certain circumstances. I doubt it will be a common thing, but if GM's want to give it an unbiased shot, let 'em, I say. We understand that the inverse of that is being falsely accused and consequently banned or shunned for something one didn't do. But that's not a terrible concern if you're not a dick hole that likes and/ or views training as natural. And it is in some ways, but in other ways it's fucked. I'm sure GM's understand that.

[Envious]

I'm sure you mean you're, as in you're a moron. I'm sure your memories of running away at the slightest chance of pvp happening stem from your nobody status on tz and your shit guild gating away whenever anyone else tried to contest them. You see, in non pussy guilds you'll actually stay and position yourself to gain the advantage once you see them zone into hate and fight for innoruuk rather than trying to ninja him and gate out. I know, this is a scary and foreign concept to you right?

Really, I'm sure that you must either be the most moronic person on these forums or a troll at this point.

TRAINING MUST BE LEGAL TO PROMOTE MASS PVP HURRRRR.

You mean these valid points??? They have all been addressed, YOUR not giving a valid reason for YT...

Btw, nice edit~

[Envious]

and yes, I agree there needs to be some rule against training. It's pretty clear what effect a 'no rules' ruleset had on previous boxes, i.e. destroying the population

Did not kill live~
What killed the VZ/TZ Emu server was admin, not the 1 week period of no rules~

[Envious]

Whatevs though. Your point is the burden of proof regarding intent. It can be found in certain circumstances. I doubt it will be a common thing, but if GM's want to give it an unbiased shot, let 'em, I say. We understand that the inverse of that is being falsely accused and consequently banned or shunned for something one didn't do. But that's not a terrible concern if you're not a dick hole that likes and/ or views training as natural. And it is in some ways, but in other ways it's fucked. I'm sure GM's understand that.

Right, and I am advocating zero GM interaction regarding any PnP. On a Live server, or with completely unbiased / governed / supervised / professional in game GM staffing its one thing... but when the staff is just people that put in free time, likely have friends on the server, or even their own chars... You start to get all the forum drama regarding favoritism, corruption, friends, donations etc etc.

This is the point that Lethdar seems to have skipped in the past 10+ pages, and why his responses are total shit.

[Envious]

QUAD POST!

Fuk'd up the first one... replace YT with Training... long day. Hold on, wait... his points seem to be more slanted towards YT in that post... and not PnP / Training...

Am I missing some post of his where he blows the argument out of the water?

Sleeping.

[Envious]

him and searyx are best bros

5 post!!!!!!!!!!!!


Neg, we have had it out on several occasions, but I understand where his arguments come from, and dont let past stupid shit from VZ/TZ cloud what he says. And he seems to do the same (not sure if he is sure who I am or not, and it really doesnt matter) for me.

For instance, he rock'd the VZ/TZ box with some bad calls... loot tables etc. Shit happens, he wanted to bottleneck gear cause server was getting flooded. And we had some times where I got banned from VZ/TZ forums for flaming him.

But when I saw him on P99, I tossed him 2500plat, and some newbie items for the TZT crew.

What was the saying that guy had in his VZ/TZ forum sig? "SZ might have been the hardest, VZ might have been the most skilled, RZ might have been the original, but TZ was the best"? I would help anyone from TZ on this EMU server.

Now, time to dick the wife down, and crash.

[Buhbuh]

Right, and I am advocating zero GM interaction regarding any PnP. On a Live server, or with completely unbiased / governed / supervised / professional in game GM staffing its one thing... but when the staff is just people that put in free time, likely have friends on the server, or even their own chars... You start to get all the forum drama regarding favoritism, corruption, friends, donations etc etc.

This is the point that Lethdar seems to have skipped in the past 10+ pages, and why his responses are total shit.

I wouldn't make the mistake of speculating on the ethical decisions/ choices made by Rogean and comparing them to someone like Voidd or any other developers we've run through the ringer that have, as a fundamental difference, not only wanted to create a server, but play on them as if they were their playgrounds too.

I get the cynicism, but this is a different set of guys running things here. Most developers or players had a conflict of interest to begin with and should never have been chosen to represent the past servers, let alone uphold their integrity (Zenaitha, that hacking Cleric guy in my guild, the high elf? etc). But I'm not inductively going to say that because it happened all the fucking time in the past, that it's necessarily doomed to happen here. Those people who pulled part of the PvP community to play as guides were misguided, to put it lightly.

[Pudge]

hey hey, anyone who hosts a server like that deserves some respect. voidd wasn't always around, but i doubt he played a char himself. he was barely even available to upkeep the server with all the shit he had going on.

give some respect! remember who brought you, and us all, where we are today


edit: also keegan.

[Envious]

hey hey, anyone who hosts a server like that deserves some respect. voidd wasn't always around, but i doubt he played a char himself. he was barely even available to upkeep the server with all the shit he had going on.

give some respect! remember who brought you, and us all, where we are today

And handed out items, breaking the last illusion of a legit server.

[Envious]

Keegan was a forum nazi whore. Anytime he got proven wrong, or looked dumb, or someone called him or the server out, he just slammed a forum ban on them then pulled some arrogant bullshit about how great he was for hosting forums that half a dozen people from the server would have been willing to do.

[Pudge]

hey man i thought you were supposed to be boning somebody! and not voidd.

i dont know about him handing out items though. never heard of it. who did he give items to?

other than.. some random monk who appeared in 2.0 fully geared to the teeth. i think his name was.... KRINGE? that was all blackmail yo, he had to do it. for the best interest of the server. lest we all wanted to be hacked and DDOSed. voidd = wise paladin of pvp

[Xantille]

Did not kill live~
What killed the VZ/TZ Emu server was admin, not the 1 week period of no rules~

Because we're going to have a live-like population on Red99? Jesus fuck, you are retarded.

I'm not sure what high level PvE you did on TZ, but Buhbuh's point about Keldorn was spot on. Training is all Keldorn did, and he eventually got banned (despite, as you claim, no GM intervention).

[Xantille]

Let me write this in a way you can understand, Envious.

~~~~~~Points in favor of allowing training:~~~~~~

1) Training was permitted on live~

2) Training will cause GM's innumerable headaches, cause people to quit, GM favoritism, etc~


#1 is patently false. If enough people cried, people still got banned on live (see: Keldorn, Erondiel's shitty ass monk who trained PDM in Kael, etc)~

#2 is the stronger argument, but I think Searyx addressed it fairly well. GM's shouldn't police training unless they are present at the fight, OR they see a crystal clear case via FRAPS (example = guild is at north wall in Fear, monk zones in and brings a shit ton of mobs with no intention of fighting)~

Those are the only two situations where I would want a rule against training enforced. Generally, every guild has someone running fraps~

And please, because you claim to come from a PvP server: do you really think allowing training is going to help the population more than policing training is going to hurt it?

Oh, I almost forgot: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Pudge]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

all you needed to say.

[lethdar]

Did not kill live~

Well of course not on TZ, you guys had a) Less and less skilled trainers than sullon, b) GMs who did ban the trainers, despite your repeated claims against that, and c) Raids with 70+ that could spare a good deal of people to defend against when the trainers weren't banned.

Do you think raids on r99 will have 70+ people and be capable of leaving a good majority at a zoneline or midpoints of a zone for counter train ops? Do you think most non vztz players are going to stick around once they eat the first few xp deaths from a level 1 cleric training them repeatedly in crushbone, unrest, sol b, etc? Earlier in this thread you said you wanted a cesspool to play in, I'm sorry that you missed out on being able to play on sz and experience it first hand, but non stop training is not good for a population, which is one of the reason sz was the first pvp server to drop to no pop.


Searyx is my pal he 100% agrees with me

You sure seem to be reading a lot into his post. Yes there can be some ambiguity, however it is pretty obvious what is going on when a bard and cleric zone into plane of fear against a raid of 20. Do you think a GM watching this wouldn't be sure of what happened when they run with selos and DA train the temple? Or the lowby cleric griefers who make a habit out of doing this in crushbone and sol b.

In addition, p99 seems to have much better logs than vztz ever did. That blurry brown rexx train would be a lot more convincing when backed up with logs showing he was the first to agro every mob between fungi king and trakanon.

Guess what pal, no one is talking about a 100% catch rate. However even knowing that this is something you can lose your character over is enough to deter most training. Should someone make a reputation for themselves its an easy flag for people to know to start running fraps and for GMs to follow. VZTZ had very few trains when sirken was on the case, for some reason you seem to believe red99 with its much greater population wont have more than 1 GM to check on the entire server.

Lethdar so mean he insults me instead of responding to my points

You mean where I responded to you trying to call me a hacker etc? Thin skin bro, not sure if you're meant for a pvp server.

[dusk883]

For the record, on TZ there wasn't any real CC'ing enforcement on the server by any GMs until Frogs were online. Like I said in another thread, I'm not a CCer by nature but it sure adds to the pre-fight drama and calculations when you believe someone might want to CC you, added more fun and desire to win. Something WoW never gave it's players and what made EQ so fun - you were going to pay a dear price for failure if the right arsehole wanted to punish you for losing pvp. By no means was I any "GOOD" at pvp, but adding more risk/reward is good for all IMO. Its what makes EQ pvp so much more fun than any other game besides the original UO where you would get tagged as a "murderer" for too many murders.

[Envious]

Got sucked into a few extra posts last night Pudge, shit happens.

And yes, I'm going to bring the tilde back. Naming one person that got banned on a server because 200 PDM people were /petitioning it doesnt really prove the point. Training happened on TZ on a daily basis.

Xant, I think what your failing to see is that the community can enforce it better than the GMs and with out needing any transparency. I am not exactly sure how deep you got into P99, but with how you guys are talking about it and speaking as tho it is some oasis of gaming. Its not, it has the same problems you see on most servers.

People hate Uthgaard, cause he moves with authority. There are several guilds / tons of people that think the server is already not legit because there are guilds with guides etc. One of the better GMs and definitely the most friendly got griefed off the server in the short 2 or 3 months I was there adjusting to the P99 setup. There are cries about trains, FTE, camping rules, spawn rights, spawn definitions, pull rights.

The easiest way to eliminate all that hassle, is to do 2 things: Make the server PvP, and remove the GMs from ANY PnP enforcement.

You can always say "Oh, well so and so got banned for X on Live, so it was enforced" but we both know its complete bullshit.

And you make it worse by saying "oh if they have fraps or happen to be there"... as soon as you have 2 people from 1 guild banned in a row, we know whats coming. Rage quits, QQ posts, accusations of corruption.

Even with logs, and fraps, how do you derive the intent? If one guild has 50 players, and is trying to engage another guild with 30, bringing some mobs is not something they will worry about. Is that a train?

Bringing in human error and decisions into a game that is made so well for PvP is pointless. If someone is a shitbag, or a guild is a shitbag, then people should treat them as such and return the favor 100 fold. Thats what we used to do on TZ, maybe before your play time, but that is how it was done. The players handled it.

Not to mention, 300 players at peak during classic, will be so crowded it will be insane.

[Envious]

And for Lethdar.

I wasnt reading shit into Searyx's post. He agreed with my main point, which all my others stem from: you can not derive intent from a fraps or even watching, or even being in vent for the most part.

And yes, I do see a guild on R99 having 50-70 online. TR, the smaller of the top 2 guilds on P99 has fucking 50 online at times, and TMO can double that.

To boot, if a cleric / bard zone into fear alone, with /who all fixed, they might not know who is in there and are planning on having bard kite fear while cleric camps at safe wall. It might wipe a group pulling in another spot?

Ban them?

Neg. Its a pvp server, take your fucking lumps like a man and move on.

[Amuk]

Gotta side with Xant on this, I played on TZ - I wasn't a part of PDM, I was a semi casual fucken 16-17 year old player, we fought SOTG/Kotwr/fireborn(who we later merged with) type level of guilds and there was rarely training involved.

I remember our guild leader would make sure noone played dirty and it usually was given back to us. I don't think this community is like live, and at least if it's against the rules and the GMS catch you in the act no fucken way to mistake a blatent train (for example naked Nwall train) then ban that accnt and you lose whatever fucken massive time levelling on p99 exp curve. I honestly think the fear of losing your char alone is a pretty big deterrent on that type of style server with active GM's.

[Amuk]

To expand on that, I saw some questionable trains - if you're pvping in hate and you pick up that roaming ghast, or shit like that - but straight out legal training would be DA cleric 20 mobs up your ass all day. Least on live people attempted to make it look accidental and less significant.

[Amuk]

Maybe there was hardcore trains against PDM from AOTL/Discordia, I'm not sure - but from my terrible ass drug abused memory I seem to remember PDM doing a lot of uncontested raiding.

3 in a row holy smokes.

[lethdar]

And for Lethdar.

I wasnt reading shit into Searyx's post. He agreed with my main point, which all my others stem from: you can not derive intent from a fraps or even watching, or even being in vent for the most part.

And yes, I do see a guild on R99 having 50-70 online. TR, the smaller of the top 2 guilds on P99 has fucking 50 online at times, and TMO can double that.

To boot, if a cleric / bard zone into fear alone, with /who all fixed, they might not know who is in there and are planning on having bard kite fear while cleric camps at safe wall. It might wipe a group pulling in another spot?

Ban them?

Neg. Its a pvp server, take your fucking lumps like a man and move on.

You're really into the whole "can't prove intent" deal aren't you? Are you in philosophy 101 right now trying to flex some rather meaningless to the real world dilemmas? Guess what else bro, our qualias may be different as well and the allegory of the cave was pretty neat, did i just cover the rest of your semester and/or blow your mind?

Onto the real world, yes of course you can tell what someone is intending with pretty good accuracy, maybe in your fantasy world you can out argue a lawyer and explain to the judge you were merely intending to carve up some chicken in your ex's house when she accidentally ran into your knife and all of the threatening voicemails and messages you sent were merely jokes, but at some point you should probably just give up the ghost on this retarded line of reasoning you're trying to pursue.

Searyx's post didn't say its impossible to derive intent, just because he said it can sometimes be hard to tell what is going on in chaotic situations such as mass pvp in plane of hate doesn't mean it is impossible in 100% of situations like you seem to be claiming. To be honest I'm not sure why you're masturbating so furiously to the one post he said that you could somewhat interpret in your favor, but whatever.

I do hate to burst your bubble since you seem to have so much e-peen caught up in this silly argument to go to such illogical lengths to defend your point, but Searyx has banned people for training before while he was a GM. He did this based on events which he witnessed are determined intent from the actions. How does this mesh with the words you're putting into his mouth?

[Envious]

Gotta side with Xant on this, I played on TZ - I wasn't a part of PDM, I was a semi casual fucken 16-17 year old player, we fought SOTG/Kotwr/fireborn(who we later merged with) type level of guilds and there was rarely training involved.

I remember our guild leader would make sure noone played dirty and it usually was given back to us. I don't think this community is like live, and at least if it's against the rules and the GMS catch you in the act no fucken way to mistake a blatent train (for example naked Nwall train) then ban that accnt and you lose whatever fucken massive time levelling on p99 exp curve. I honestly think the fear of losing your char alone is a pretty big deterrent on that type of style server with active GM's.

This does nothing but reinforce the idea that the community can police training with out GMs.

And naked Nwall train can be used to camp a cleric out to make PoF farmable by a 6-12 man group.

[Envious]

You're really into the whole "can't prove intent" deal aren't you? Are you in philosophy 101 right now trying to flex some rather meaningless to the real world dilemmas? Guess what else bro, our qualias may be different as well and the allegory of the cave was pretty neat, did i just cover the rest of your semester and/or blow your mind?

Onto the real world, yes of course you can tell what someone is intending with pretty good accuracy, maybe in your fantasy world you can out argue a lawyer and explain to the judge you were merely intending to carve up some chicken in your ex's house when she accidentally ran into your knife and all of the threatening voicemails and messages you sent were merely jokes, but at some point you should probably just give up the ghost on this retarded line of reasoning you're trying to pursue.

Searyx's post didn't say its impossible to derive intent, just because he said it can sometimes be hard to tell what is going on in chaotic situations such as mass pvp in plane of hate doesn't mean it is impossible in 100% of situations like you seem to be claiming. To be honest I'm not sure why you're masturbating so furiously to the one post he said that you could somewhat interpret in your favor, but whatever.

I do hate to burst your bubble since you seem to have so much e-peen caught up in this silly argument to go to such illogical lengths to defend your point, but Searyx has banned people for training before while he was a GM. He did this based on events which he witnessed are determined intent from the actions. How does this mesh with the words you're putting into his mouth?

Someone google'd philo 101 to get some neat things to post! I put no words in his mouth, just stated he agreed with me, and you have been riding his name's dick for like 5 pages now.

Searyx banned people for training... prolly true. He also helped monster fuck the server with loot tables, and all kinds of wonderful shit.

Just like all the other admins on VZ/TZ. I'm sure some had great intent, but they monster fucked the server routinely.

I dont know why your so against having no GM intervention? What are you scared of?

Cause that is all I really want. Zero GM intervention save for game mechanic issues.

Seriously, why u skur'd?

[Envious]

Plus, its not simply the cant prove intent.

-It saves the GMs / Devs the hassle of dealing with petty shit.
-Keeps corruption 100% out of the picture, because there is ZERO EFFECTIVE INTERACTION
-Allows community to police itself, and omfg... actually establish a community instead of a sandbox of kids needing to be babysat
-Puts pressure on players to NOT be shitbags, because other players will shit on you too

Seriously, why you scared of being alone without the baby sitters?

[Humerox]

Cause that is all I really want. Zero GM intervention save for game mechanic issues.

That's something else I'm totally on board with. If we do this right, we can police ourselves.

Raiding? Leave people back to guard the ZL's. Gankers? Anti-PK. CC? Get friends and get help.

The less GM intervention, the better.

[lethdar]

Someone google'd philo 101 to get some neat things to post! I put no words in his mouth, just stated he agreed with me, and you have been riding his name's dick for like 5 pages now.

Searyx banned people for training... prolly true. He also helped monster fuck the server with loot tables, and all kinds of wonderful shit.

Just like all the other admins on VZ/TZ. I'm sure some had great intent, but they monster fucked the server routinely.

I dont know why your so against having no GM intervention? What are you scared of?

Cause that is all I really want. Zero GM intervention save for game mechanic issues.

Seriously, why u skur'd?

Having actually played on servers with zero gm intervention (sullon zek for years, vztz in the periods where they let everything go wild), it's blatantly obvious that its terrible for populations. It's not impossible to determine intentions during trains, in fact its quite easy in many situations.

I'm really sorry you missed out on sullon zek for your darkie only roleplay guild on tallon, it was quite a blast.However sullon zek's training did demolish its numbers quicker than any other server on eq and that was during the prime of everquest where people had time and money invested in their characters with 2000+ logging in rather than a "maybe 200-300" here. Most people aren't going to continue playing a free emu server where they get da trained starting at lvl 1 and that's simply the reality bro.

If you find a time machine to live out your dream of playing on sullon zek let me know, but this server isn't sullon zek.

[Envious]

Having actually played on servers with zero gm intervention (sullon zek for years, vztz in the periods where they let everything go wild), it's blatantly obvious that its terrible for populations. It's not impossible to determine intentions during trains, in fact its quite easy in many situations.

I'm really sorry you missed out on sullon zek for your darkie only roleplay guild on tallon, it was quite a blast.However sullon zek's training did demolish its numbers quicker than any other server on eq and that was during the prime of everquest where people had time and money invested in their characters with 2000+ logging in rather than a "maybe 200-300" here. Most people aren't going to continue playing a free emu server where they get da trained starting at lvl 1 and that's simply the reality bro.

If you find a time machine to live out your dream of playing on sullon zek let me know, but this server isn't sullon zek.

Nobody told you? Sullon was where all the social rejects that nobody liked ran off to. TZ had zero rules that I ever saw, except dont use racial slurs on the GMs... that got Bolaris banned. =/

And whats your fascination with RP'ing?? I hear the WoW Emerald Dream needs players if you wanna get some RP action in.

[Envious]

And VZ/TZ week no-rules for what? 1 week? Lol

[lethdar]

Nobody told you? Sullon was where all the social rejects that nobody liked ran off to. TZ had zero rules that I ever saw, except dont use racial slurs on the GMs... that got Bolaris banned. =/


I'm sure you never saw any TZ rules, being in a mid level guild you probably never were even important enough to be trained. There have been multiple examples posted by people in this thread about GM intervention on TZ. Considering the people who posted that aren't anonymous and hiding their identity while claiming to be a part of various "endgame PVE and PVP" guilds, and their stories collaborate each other...

well i guess what I'm saying here is you're probably just a lying newbie.

[lethdar]

And VZ/TZ week no-rules for what? 1 week? Lol

Hoho zinger, you sure got me there, the months on occasion when vztz had no rules in addition to my years spent on sz, I guess the mid level guild you were in on tz certainly had more experience with a server with no GM intervention.

[Envious]

I can remember some VZ/TZ GM stating that they tried no rules, and after a week (maybe a month? Its only been a couple of years and I was not playing at the time? Lol) and all the QQ they brought them back.

I can recall people speaking of 1 guys alt monk getting banned after training PDM... which bred some of the most impressive forum and game trolls ever, as witnessed on these forums and VZ/TZ forums (Nobody forgets TZT).

And as far as hiding my name, I'm not~ Envious was the name of one of my alts on TZ, and my main on Tich, as well a char I had on the VZ/TZ emu (I dont remember which char).

Maybe this conversation we are having now is the point, I dont need to stroke my own ego. I gamed with (arguably) the best players from TZ when we moved to Tichondrius for WoW. And gamed with some of the best in Vanilla EQ. So not going into detail about guilds I was in, or what we have done, and having you babble on and on about how it somehow makes my posts less relevant doesnt really bother me at all.

Whereas you... well, you need some stroking pal. Find a woman?

[Envious]

well i guess what I'm saying here is you're probably just a lying newbie.

I'm kinda like KBTrader in this sense... I have stories so fantastic they gotta be lies. But arent. Lol

And go to the TZ server post, I knew as many if not more people in EQ Vanilla than most of the people posting in that thread. Save for Searyx / Xant, I'm sure those 2 could flood a list of PDM members. But the people I listed are, for the most part, (well, were) pals.

I just dont have to validate myself with your opinion, unlike you need to do with other people's opinions and YT~

[lethdar]

You see the problem here is pal, you've mentioned your high end guild pve / pvp experience multiple times throughout the thread, and now are adding in garbage wow and fantastic stories. It sure looks like you just tried to validate yourself loololol.

But keep on telling yourself that somehow I'm the one trying to give meaning to my opinions by referencing your past guilds and that you've "gamed with some of the best in vanilla EQ," "~".

It looks like to me that you've realized your arguments don't make sense and that your only hope is to try and distance yourself from the actual arguments. Again, in an easy format because I realize you may have some difficulties with this:

-Training is policable, intent isn't impossible to derive unless you're an autistic video game nerd, it's actually laughably insulting to GMs that you don't believe they couldn't figure out whats going on when a bard and cleric come selo da training a raid zone.

-No Rules about training murders populations, see the periods of vztz where training was legal and all of sullon zek.

-Any time TZ's "player self enforcing" broke down, PDM or whoever would only need to mass petition to get a GM to ban the offender, meaning you actually have had no experience with a ruleless server.

-Unlike VZTZ, p99 has a much better code when it comes to pulling up logs on who agroed what, this coupled with widespread knowledge of fraps makes it fairly easy to catch train situations

-The mere existence of a rule putting a character in jeopardy is enough to deter many situations that would otherwise devolve into a train fest. Again, you may fail to understand this due to an austism spectrum disorder.

-Training does not promote PVP, your belief that guilds will evacuate rather than fight unless they get trained seems fairly naive, though it probably does stem from your past experiences in shit guilds.

[vinx]

-Training is policable, intent isn't impossible to derive unless you're an autistic video game nerd, it's actually laughably insulting to GMs that you don't believe they couldn't figure out whats going on when a bard and cleric come selo da training a raid zone.

-No Rules about training murders populations, see the periods of vztz where training was legal and all of sullon zek.

-Any time TZ's "player self enforcing" broke down, PDM or whoever would only need to mass petition to get a GM to ban the offender, meaning you actually have had no experience with a ruleless server.

-Unlike VZTZ, p99 has a much better code when it comes to pulling up logs on who agroed what, this coupled with widespread knowledge of fraps makes it fairly easy to catch train situations

-The mere existence of a rule putting a character in jeopardy is enough to deter many situations that would otherwise devolve into a train fest. Again, you may fail to understand this due to an austism spectrum disorder.

-Training does not promote PVP
^^

[Rushmore]

You see the problem here is pal, you've mentioned your high end guild pve / pvp experience multiple times throughout the thread, and now are adding in garbage wow and fantastic stories. It sure looks like you just tried to validate yourself loololol.

But keep on telling yourself that somehow I'm the one trying to give meaning to my opinions by referencing your past guilds and that you've "gamed with some of the best in vanilla EQ," "~".

It looks like to me that you've realized your arguments don't make sense and that your only hope is to try and distance yourself from the actual arguments. Again, in an easy format because I realize you may have some difficulties with this:

-Training is policable, intent isn't impossible to derive unless you're an autistic video game nerd, it's actually laughably insulting to GMs that you don't believe they couldn't figure out whats going on when a bard and cleric come selo da training a raid zone.

-No Rules about training murders populations, see the periods of vztz where training was legal and all of sullon zek.

-Any time TZ's "player self enforcing" broke down, PDM or whoever would only need to mass petition to get a GM to ban the offender, meaning you actually have had no experience with a ruleless server.

-Unlike VZTZ, p99 has a much better code when it comes to pulling up logs on who agroed what, this coupled with widespread knowledge of fraps makes it fairly easy to catch train situations

-The mere existence of a rule putting a character in jeopardy is enough to deter many situations that would otherwise devolve into a train fest. Again, you may fail to understand this due to an austism spectrum disorder.

-Training does not promote PVP, your belief that guilds will evacuate rather than fight unless they get trained seems fairly naive, though it probably does stem from your past experiences in shit guilds.

Game Set Match

[raptorak]

Whilst we are busy changing the classic rules please get rid of hybrid exp penalty :P

[Arshis]

Training has never been accepted on the live servers or any server as far as I know. I don’t see how it could be acceptable in the case of p99 red. What’s more important would be the consequences for training offenders. Because, regardless if training is made illegal or not someone will do it whether on accident or purposely. Does anyone remember the term ‘flagged account’ it meant you were at repeating offender, trains, exploits, foul play, griefing, and etc. If you had too many flags a ban was imminent.

[Envious]

I dont recall ever saying training promote pvp... post a link where I did? You could maybe infer it from some things I have said, maybe. I do recall saying that GM interaction based on PnP never helps because it brings in human error and the typical GM favoritism / corruption routine?

Training is not enforceable. There will always be people running into mobs on accident from PvP, people aggro'ing without knowing, and then in raid situations the "fuk it, just bring it with us we have to engage now" which should be valid imo.

As far as "player enforced" rules on TZ breaking down and someone getting a ban, there has been 1 name tossed around that I have seen. 1 guy, out of the 1500+ that played over a 4 to 5 year span. I'm sure there were more, but that does not mean that banning or even getting a warning for training was the norm.

Nobody gives a fuk about SZ, you and Macken fail to get this. That server was where all the disfunctional social rejects had to go because nobody on RZ/TZ/VZ wanted them anymore. I know 1 guy that went from TZ to SZ, and he was a bad, and could not get into any guilds because everyone knew of such. And that was after Kosta gave him a fucking RFS and he was still rejected.

Maybe your right, maybe the people that will be on R99 wont be half the community that TZ and VZ had during Classic / Kunark. Actually, you prolly are right and the R99 players will not be capable of policing themselves.

Too bad you kids need baby sitters. Thats the whole reason EQ PvP is great, the game mechanics are so open.

Who knows, maybe Uthgaard will come hold our hands for R99. Considering you caught a ban on VZ/TZ for jacking someone's gear, while my only blemish was CC'ing Roadblock and his brother / son / uncle / father / sister (whatever the fuck it was) for 5hrs and catching a 2 or 3 day suspension.

[Envious]

Oops... add ", we might get to see you catch a ban on R99" to the end of that last post.

Arshis, training was never "accepted" but was also not routinely GM enforced. It was one of those things where if you were one to do it, you had to be ready for others to really loath you and dedicate time and effort into ruining your day.

Again, thats the type of thing that made EQ PvP so fun in live, that all the dynamics were open and the players were free to do as they willed.

Maybe we will get some babysitters.

[Scribbles]

man all you people trying to argue that allowing training would be *good* for the server are either seriously delusional or trolling hard

[Envious]

Not saying training is good, saying let the players handle it and dont let GMs interfere in any way with any facet of PvP.

Learn the fucking argument you idiots.

[Scribbles]

still not sure whether delusional or troll

[mimixownzall]

Teams servers training seems right (it's war and anything goes to destory the opposing factions/teams).

Not so sure really on FFA. There is a reason why MMOs coming out are teams based - it works and is the most popular, but seeing as it is already set to be FFA, then arguing is moot.

Training isn't near as bad as it used to be. Mobs don't stop and attack others you run by who are closer; sure, they get on the aggro list, but the original trainer has to zone/die/fd for the mob to break off and own others. This mechanic eliminates a lot of outdoor training potential as bards won't be the train gods (Fansy). Won't help in dungeons against FD'ers but will eliminate a lot of outdoor trainings of opportunity.

[Buhbuh]

Who is that chick in your sig, Mimix?

[mimixownzall]

Alizee. A french pop star. She's a little dated now (though still really hot), but she was so fkin sexy in her prime.

[Buhbuh]

Oh, jesus. She is gorgeous. I love French honeybabies.

[Kope]

Oh, jesus. She is gorgeous. I love French honeybabies.

Google - Alizee jen Ai Mare

[Buhbuh]

Already did, pal. Hittin' the bathroom now.

[Amuk]

I think Envious is fucking stupid, the difference between someone training to the exit in Seb agroing mobs, or running away in fear and agroing shit is so different than legal training porting up a naked cleric to hate and DA training a raid, or naked DA Nwall train.

"naked nwall to bind at nwall blah blah" I mean shit, if a guild goes in and rapes another guild, then they continue to naked train the guild that owned them for hours I mean it's pretty fucking obvious. All the casual accidental trains, mobs agroing in pvp is no big fucking deal and should most of the time be ignored due to intent, but the clear blatent non-stop grief training is easily spotted.

PDM had it pretty easy TBH, I tagged along for their first vindi raid on Gaanon when they reformed and it was uncontested, we did Zland right after - it was a fairly obvious zerg guild. Lot of skilled players but pretty much had all the hardcore gamers in it heh, I hate seeing these references to TZ like it was this hardcore grief fest war when it really wasn't.

I am very curious to who Envious is now also pls say.

[Amuk]

Remember when AOTL attempted to do Ntov for the first time? I do - that guild was conisdered second best and the competition for PDM? Please.

[lethdar]

So delusional.

As for who he is, I've had enough fun fucking around with him so I'll let ya know. He is Lachius from vztz, no idea if he had the same name on TZ. I don't blame you for the shame in hiding your identity, if I had failed so hard at playing a Mage, trying to lead a guild, and at life in general I'd probably try to hide who I was too.

[Littlegyno]

So delusional.

As for who he is, I've had enough fun fucking around with him so I'll let ya know. He is Lachius from vztz, no idea if he had the same name on TZ. I don't blame you for the shame in hiding your identity, if I had failed so hard at playing a Mage, trying to lead a guild, and at life in general I'd probably try to hide who I was too.

Lachius was an ez yellow text if I recall correctly. How do you fail so bad at playing a mage dog?

[Humerox]

Alizee. A french pop star. She's a little dated now (though still really hot), but she was so fkin sexy in her prime.

Yeah...she is still hot. Only 27, but she quit putting stuff out. The female Dark Elf animation on WoW was modeled after her. She was discovered by Mylene Farmer, another incredibly sexy French hottie...who is a bit past her prime but wth.

Naw...I'm not an Alizee fan at all.

Mylene Farmer...if you wanna see a French woman in her 40's that'll melt your eyeballs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uBxzApOzGc&feature=related

Oh yeah...limited GM involvement on training and BC is probably my final vote...even tho I'm against GM intervention at all. Hadda make this post relevant, somehow.

[Buhbuh]

It says she's like just about 50 now. Wow. I would've guessed 30's. She is a lovely dove as well.


Good share, good share.

[Amuk]

You guys are fucking weird.

[mimixownzall]

You guys are fucking weird.

Yeah, well... These are GIRLS we are talking about. I know you haven't been around many, but normally it's considered GOOD to be around them and talk about them and do other nefarious things to/with.

[Scribbles]

So delusional.

As for who he is, I've had enough fun fucking around with him so I'll let ya know. He is Lachius from vztz, no idea if he had the same name on TZ. I don't blame you for the shame in hiding your identity, if I had failed so hard at playing a Mage, trying to lead a guild, and at life in general I'd probably try to hide who I was too.

haha explains so much

[Tiggles]

Sullon Zek rules

No cursing no hacking no exploits

Everything else fair game

[Amuk]

3 fat nerds circle jerking over a former french pop star is completely normal, I take it back.

[Humerox]

...noone cares if you're fucking hot bitches. I haven't posted too much...

Ya...think I know wut yer problem is bro.

sorry.

:(

[Amuk]

What does me laughing at Dojii covering up MQing with saying he fucks hot bitches have to do with you liking teenage girl pop music?

[Amuk]

Hows Britneys career doin yo I haven't been keeping up.

[Humerox]

dunno. since you don't enjoy young pop stars, or become angst-ridden when men talk about getting laid by hot chicks, here's something more suited to your needs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPZh4AnWyk

enjoy, young brother.

[Tajin]

No to Bindcamping/training!!! Yes to xp loss on pvp death...

[mimixownzall]

3 fat nerds circle jerking over a former french pop star is completely normal, I take it back.

A lot more normal than calling some guys 'fucking weird' for talking about beautiful girls we fancy.

Idiot

[Xantille]

So delusional.

As for who he is, I've had enough fun fucking around with him so I'll let ya know. He is Lachius from vztz, no idea if he had the same name on TZ. I don't blame you for the shame in hiding your identity, if I had failed so hard at playing a Mage, trying to lead a guild, and at life in general I'd probably try to hide who I was too.

Don't mean 2 derail, but

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Muaar]

Please allow training in non raid zones. It's a huge draw for some classes and was a big part of the game in Live. Sure, it can be annoying - but this is fucking Everquest. That's the point.

I can see raid guilds not wanting a training for raid mobs environment but for regulate players and groups it adds a lot of dynamic to the game for me. Keeps you on your toes and lets people who are being griefed by superior numbers/levels/gear fight back.

Some truly hilarious situations have come from training. Think of all the laughs trains have brought in all of the history of EQ. What is the monk class if training was banned from the beginning?

A member of my guild once trained our own raid on live and we still laugh about it to this day.

[Harrison]

Please allow training in non raid zones. It's a huge draw for some classes and was a big part of the game in Live. Sure, it can be annoying - but this is fucking Everquest. That's the point.

I can see raid guilds not wanting a training for raid mobs environment but for regulate players and groups it adds a lot of dynamic to the game for me. Keeps you on your toes and lets people who are being griefed by superior numbers/levels/gear fight back.

Some truly hilarious situations have come from training. Think of all the laughs trains have brought in all of the history of EQ. What is the monk class if training was banned from the beginning?

A member of my guild once trained our own raid on live and we still laugh about it to this day.

gtfo

[Muaar]

get bindcamped more? someones afraid of repercussions harsher than a timeout from a gm =(

[Misto]

Trains are fun, especially in Kurns Tower.

I've never trained anyone without warning them, and I really enjoyed keeping an eye out for trains. =X

[Sniperfire]

training is the hardest thing to prove i think it would be less hassle to let them do it than to make rules about it

[Haul]

Please allow training in non raid zones. It's a huge draw for some classes and was a big part of the game in Live. Sure, it can be annoying - but this is fucking Everquest. That's the point.

I can see raid guilds not wanting a training for raid mobs environment but for regulate players and groups it adds a lot of dynamic to the game for me. Keeps you on your toes and lets people who are being griefed by superior numbers/levels/gear fight back.

Some truly hilarious situations have come from training. Think of all the laughs trains have brought in all of the history of EQ. What is the monk class if training was banned from the beginning?

A member of my guild once trained our own raid on live and we still laugh about it to this day.

It didn't seem like that bad of a post Harrison. Don't be a nitpicker-

[Buhbuh]

training is the hardest thing to prove i think it would be less hassle to let them do it than to make rules about it

Not plural. Rule. Don't do it. Simple enough.

[Sniperfire]

Not plural. Rule. Don't do it. Simple enough.

then when they do it what happens....ohh you cant prove it and you qq then what everyone runs fraps full time to try and catch the trainer? grow a pair training is a part of pvp so is corpse camping and killing lowbies. none of you p99 motherfuckers lasts more than a few days on any pvp server that opens so stfu with your opinions already you wont be there past the first week

[Xantille]

then when they do it what happens....ohh you cant prove it and you qq then what everyone runs fraps full time to try and catch the trainer? grow a pair training is a part of pvp so is corpse camping and killing lowbies. none of you p99 motherfuckers lasts more than a few days on any pvp server that opens so stfu with your opinions already you wont be there past the first week

chill brah, bewbew is a confirmed pro PvP player from TZ

[Tombom]

A lot more normal than calling some guys 'fucking weird' for talking about beautiful girls we fancy.

Idiot

so many creeps in this thread, makes me sick.

[mimixownzall]

And trolls, obviously.

[Tombom]

Yeah, well... These are GIRLS we are talking about. I know you haven't been around many, but normally it's considered GOOD to be around them and talk about them and do other nefarious things to/with.

You literally sound like a creepy ass eq player in highschool who got caught sniffin panties. It's been 10 years man, time to move on.

[Amuk]

Well they did call a 27 year old dated, so I imagine some of the nefarious things they're talking about include stocking the creeper van with candy and patrolling the local schools.

[Tombom]

m i m i x o w n z a l l

[Titanuk]

red99 out yet?

[gprater]

allow bind camping

easy enough to log off or log on another toon until its safe. part of pvp is being griefed



Yea it's awful part, the immature part, idiotic part....i could go on. The way i see it PVP is misnamed. It should TVT(toon vs toon or something similar) You and I are players.If players wanted to fight we could meet in the parking lot of burger king then go home and play a computer game. The point is: If you grief a person enough the player gets discouraged, quits, etc...its not fun. When I engage in PVP in an MMO, im not out to attack the person at the keyboard controlling that toon. I have no desire to ruin someones playtime. For some of us that a scant hour or two a day. I say no to bind camping. I know in one of the pvp games I played(might have been EQ2 Nagafen server)..killing the same player more than once in a time limit(30 min maybe) yielded no rewards to the killer or major pnealties to the victim)

Now if you are near the bind point and the person gets mad and attacks you to retaliate then sure defend yourself...otherwise let him go..kill him again when hes buffed and ready.

2cents

[Envious]

training is the hardest thing to prove i think it would be less hassle to let them do it than to make rules about it

then when they do it what happens....ohh you cant prove it and you qq then what everyone runs fraps full time to try and catch the trainer? grow a pair training is a part of pvp so is corpse camping and killing lowbies. none of you p99 motherfuckers lasts more than a few days on any pvp server that opens so stfu with your opinions already you wont be there past the first week

[Kungen]

Originally Posted by Sniperfire View Post
training is the hardest thing to prove i think it would be less hassle to let them do it than to make rules about it

Word, allow training, bind camping and everything else that keeps carebears away

[Kope]

Word, allow training, bind camping and everything else that keeps carebears away

So you want to create a server with a constantly dwindling population? Yay for dying servers...

[Harrison]

Word, allow training, bind camping and everything else that kills servers

[Nirgon]

You're going to get griefed. This is true in all world PvP in mmos. In eq, you are going to get mega griefed. No rule is going to "prevent grief".

100% chance over time true bluebies will quit over something.

[Kope]

You're going to get griefed. This is true in all world PvP in mmos. In eq, you are going to get mega griefed. No rule is going to "prevent grief".

This is a very true point, and I think at this point everyone understands that. The point of the rules are to minimize it so people don't get griefed off the server.

100% chance over time true bluebies will quit over something.

This is not at all true, what basis do you have on this? You don't have to OMGZPVP to enjoy a pvp server. As stated above, people (blubies included) understands pvp happens on a pvp server.

[juicedsixfo]

You're going to get griefed. This is true in all world PvP in mmos. In eq, you are going to get mega griefed. No rule is going to "prevent grief".

100% chance over time true bluebies will quit over something.

I feel like a lot of you never played RZ, or at least not during the first year. The majority of the population that played there chose the server for the option to PvP. Sure there was PKs, and plenty of PvP Happened™, but all this shit now wasn't a huge problem then.

The reason this thread was made is because a small sized portion of the incoming population is made up of nothing but griefers who ruin box to box to box with their FPS play style, who feel like it's their duty to make the game as least fun as possible for everyone else to prove how Red they are.

Of course griefing happens, it's part of a PvP server. But there should be an established rule or guideline to prevent game breaking griefing, mainly training. Training, while hilarious, is lame as fuck.

Word, allow training, bind camping and everything else that keeps carebears away

Look as this backwards fucking logic right here.

[Nirgon]

I think I'm right about this. This won't exactly be RZ. Going to be griefing and bitching like no other up in this one.

[gloinz]

I feel like a lot of you never played RZ, or at least not during the first year. The majority of the population that played there chose the server for the option to PvP. Sure there was PKs, and plenty of PvP Happened™, but all this shit now wasn't a huge problem then.

The reason this thread was made is because a small sized portion of the incoming population is made up of nothing but griefers who ruin box to box to box with their FPS play style, who feel like it's their duty to make the game as least fun as possible for everyone else to prove how Red they are.

Of course griefing happens, it's part of a PvP server. But there should be an established rule or guideline to prevent game breaking griefing, mainly training. Training, while hilarious, is lame as fuck.



Look as this backwards fucking logic right here.

Training is how George Washington and Abraham Lincoln patriotically established america.
without the population having a way to fight a guerrilla war with the ruling nazi regime, the box is doomed to be run by a conglomerate of bluebie jewish overlords.
training allows us little folks to fight a war with anyone.

[eqsales]

And trolls, obviously.

[Muaar]

I hope this server develops an 'anti-pk' faction.

[Humerox]

I hope this server develops an 'anti-pk' faction.

Grindcore (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46492)

[Sniperfire]

training rarely really hurts good players....sure if your out solo or something but it never really affected tdt raids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-VI3V6HpuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UkNazcWOHs

[Sniperfire]

What about rules that are easy to enforce (like bind camping)? The deterrent value of being punished for something like that is enough to make most people not do it. It's not going to burn out the GM staff since virtually no one would be dumb enough to risk doing it.

Yeah training isn't easy to catch, but that's just a reason for needing a high standard of evidence before punishing anyone. If there's not enough evidence, then just don't get involved. And most blatant training should be solved by casting root anyway. I fail to see how this is a big deal. If you don't have a rule against training there will be about a hundred times more of it.

when you enforce bind camping rules you run into problems like what if you kill a guy at his bind and he keeps spawning and attacking you (bind rushing) hoiw many times do you defend yourself before your camping him just let us pvp and fix the quests and other cs issues imo

[Nirgon]

I think the better question is if they are able to say "yes we can enforce this with our allocated staffing" please discuss if the players want it.

That is going to require a lot of consideration of if they want to tolerate it or if pvp/the server/CSR is better off with players enforcing it.

[juicedsixfo]

That is going to require a lot of consideration of if they want to tolerate it or if pvp/the server/CSR is better off with players enforcing it.


To be honest the best way to play the game is to use common sense (I know, right). We all know by now what kind of conduct is considered "detrimental to the server, it's population, or staff." In general: don't be idiot, play the game, and you won't get in trouble. If you enjoy being an asshole there's right and wrong ways to do it.

Rogean has already made it clear that he and his staff are running the server their way, with an iron fist, and I'm glad for that.

[Envious]

Look at the RnF section for P99. There were 5 drama threads about the last 2 or 3 days alone. And they all contain at least a couple posts about GM corruption, GM favoritism, etc. And we all know how much more intense that would be on a PvP server where it actually matters.

Easy way to eliminate that is to simply not involve the GMs, for anything regarding PvP.

Handholding is not EQ PvP, its built into WoW. Play that if you cant handle community enforced rules imo.

[mangos756]

Thank You.

[Xareth]

No training. Community policing all other PnP ideals. Lethdar has said it best.


Remember when AOTL attempted to do Ntov for the first time? I do - that guild was conisdered second best and the competition for PDM? Please.

HAHAHA now I remember.

[Nirgon]

You know, I'm really wondering if one guild started stomping everyone and taking all the raid content... what GMs might do to protect their server. How would staff handle a 50 person organized strong PvP guild taking all the spawns every week and chain stomping everyone when mobs were down?

You have to understand a scenario like this could definitely become real. When the pop starts dying because of another guild's dominance... what happens then? Everyone's going to have dirty laundry somewhere. It'd be hard to see the dominant guild not coming under increased scrutiny (quicker suspensions/bans) and screams of favoritism even if there was really none.

[gloinz]

You know, I'm really wondering if one guild started stomping everyone and taking all the raid content... what GMs might do to protect their server. How would staff handle a 50 person organized strong PvP guild taking all the spawns every week and chain stomping everyone when mobs were down?

You have to understand a scenario like this could definitely become real. When the pop starts dying because of another guild's dominance... what happens then? Everyone's going to have dirty laundry somewhere. It'd be hard to see the dominant guild not coming under increased scrutiny (quicker suspensions/bans) and screams of favoritism even if there was really none.

in situations like this we have only one option
the pvp champ

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/92/undersiege.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/undersiege.jpg/)

[Envious]

Uthgaard quit P99...

The turnover we would create with Rogean's GMs would make him go bald. Cause if you think those blue-bies are hard on your staff... the PvP group here is prolly 1/5 the size of the PvE crowd and you see the work we put on forums... imagine what shit the pvp server staff would have to deal with concerning PnP.

No GMs, no rules. Man up.

[juicedsixfo]

imagine what shit the pvp server staff would have to deal with concerning PnP.


See this is where you're wrong. They don't have to put up with shit. This isn't your server. All that hand-holding and spoon spanking that Box GM's did in the past isn't even a consideration here. You fuck up, you're banned. And it makes an example out of you, and people will learn. You don't fucking pay to play here.

Trying to act like the asshole community will be pulling the strings is absolutely backwards. If you have a problem with GM rule there's a probably a good reason why. Rule with an iron fist, and fuck the trouble makers.

[Harrison]

Sorry Juiced, but I think if recent events on P99 say anything. There is no iron fist.

The "asshole community" will be pulling the strings.

[Tiggle]

remember when harrison was like fucking scumbag hackers on vztz

and then half of p99 got caught hacking

member

[Harrison]

Same player pool, genius.

Remember when your piece of shit wannabe pvp server went down and we got flooded with pieces of shit?

"member"?

[garzahd`]

remember when harrison got the boot from military school

[Vondra]

Bind camping makes me roll my eyes. If you've killed them, give them the opportunity to just loot up and leave. Of course if they're obviously not going to then kill them again, no problem.

Not crazy about training either, particularly since it's just so ridiculously easy to do for how effective it is. Hell it's a pvp server. If you want to kill someone...there's already a built in way to do it, attack them.

[Envious]

Training works both ways. GMs are hardly there to enforce the first train, and usually only keep people from responding in kind while they are around. It also creates GM favoritism / bias claims to have GMs intervening for any PnP. And you cant tell the intent sometimes behind a train (monk is FD'ing to Frenzy, wipes tower, that = ban?).

Lets all man up, and leave the handholding back on VZ/TZ.

And as the trolls got so fond of saying, "Lets be men about it".

[Ziggy]

It is NECESSARY to allow people to bind camp and yes train. It is simply one of those things that needs to be around to create the proper server dynamic. Sure mad_monk01 can try to train my group, but he should do so knowing that I will at least attempt to bind camp him into oblivion.

[Xareth]

It is NECESSARY to allow people to bind camp and yes train. It is simply one of those things that needs to be around to create the proper server dynamic. Sure mad_monk01 can try to train my group, but he should do so knowing that I will at least attempt to bind camp him into oblivion.

Ohhhh....now I see. That was simple afterall!

Ok guys, at least we have one thing decided on. Guess it was stupid to consider any of the valid points that were brought up in the last 24 pages.

It is simply one of those things...

/tack hammer

[gloinz]

Ohhhh....now I see. That was simple afterall!

Ok guys, at least we have one thing decided on. Guess it was stupid to consider any of the valid points that were brought up in the last 24 pages.

It is simply one of those things...

/tack hammer

man up bluebie

[Xareth]

If you didn't sense the sarcasm, this /tack hammer's for you.

Sometimes I smoke a doob so I can eat more bluebies.

[Kelsar]

Has to be community driven/enforced. Don't force the GMs to become babysitters.

[Nirgon]

What are rules for intentional xp loss? Root someone, pull mobs to them, gate/fd or whatever. Especially on bind points and CRs...

[JayDee]

Has to be community driven/enforced. Don't force the GMs to become babysitters.

lolololololol

[Kelsar]

Training is a tactical advantage.

Training can be pure faggotry.

I usually laugh the first two or three times, but when you see guilds that purposely do it for hours w/ no reason, other than to harass, it gets old. I'm talking about people out of pvp range (i.e. fully buffed lv 20 in lguk w/ faction) zipping through the zone trying to wreck people.

[gloinz]

Training is a tactical advantage.

[Billbike]

In 2002, I was at my buddy's house getting ready to go to the bar, he always wanted me to play eq, I thought it was gay. Well that fateful night, my life changed forever. I watched him log in his 21 rog named noobslayerr and clear Pauladual Caverns of about 25 people in about 10 min. I was interested at this point. Then I watched him log in a 65 human sk, train a group in Plane of Justice with the entire basement, all the random NPCs from the rooms, everything. All I saw was : A High Guardian of Justice executes a FLURRY of attacks on Random_noob. Was one of the funniest things I ever saw. I was hooked. I bought the new gold box EQ with POP the very next day!

So if not for training, I wouldn't be here today!

Training is part of the game, shouldn't be a GM issue unless it's done repeatedly, or to wipe a raid.

[Xareth]

Training can be pure faggotry.

I usually laugh the first two or three times, but when you see guilds that purposely do it for hours w/ no reason, other than to harass, it gets old. I'm talking about people out of pvp range (i.e. fully buffed lv 20 in lguk w/ faction) zipping through the zone trying to wreck people.

It won't just be (random) guilds doing it for hours, there will be guilds made for the sole purpose of training. They will train without need for a reason, and reputation will not matter because it will obviously be all alts.

Allow training and watch what happens.

[Civeal]

was wondering something, what everyone thinks of making it so the only bind point possible are towns, for everyclass?

[greatdane]

was wondering something, what everyone thinks of making it so the only bind point possible are towns, for everyclass?

No. None of those gameplay-changing features. Anything that doesn't pertain specifically to the actual PvP ruleset should remain classic.

What would that even accomplish?

[Envious]

I'm too old for a babysitter.

No GM intervention.

[Xareth]

I'm too old for a babysitter.

No GM intervention.

Yeah leave the kids at home by themselves, they'll never get into any trouble...

You may not need a babysitter, but I assure you many do. I think I want more of the walk through the house and you just want a phone call to "check up on things" - aka time to bullshit your ass off that you're not throwing the party that is raging in the other room.

[Civeal]

No. None of those gameplay-changing features. Anything that doesn't pertain specifically to the actual PvP ruleset should remain classic.

What would that even accomplish?

i was thinking it would prevent bindrushing in a very strong manner.

[gloinz]

It won't just be (random) guilds doing it for hours, there will be guilds made for the sole purpose of training. They will train without need for a reason, and reputation will not matter because it will obviously be all alts.

Allow training and watch what happens.

modern day nostradamus/mayan emperor predicting 2012

training isn't gonna destroy the universe brosky
its gonna bring balance to the force or somethin along those lines